Bilbo was now beginning to feel really uncomfortable. Whenever Smaug's roving eye, seeking for him in the shadows, flashed across him, he trembled, and an unaccountable desire seized hold of him to rush out and reveal himself and tell all the truth to Smaug. In fact he was in grievous danger of coming under the dragon-spell. But plucking up courage he spoke again.
I have no other words to add to the ones I have already written. This is a wonderful concept and you, Aulë, have proved yourself a great craftsman of ideas and proposals. Marvellously written and conceived ;)
I AM IN FAVOR OF THIS AWESOME CONCEPT
I apologize AulëTheSmith for my criticism. But you definitely get my vote +1. Bravo !!! And yes, I almost forgot the ring system just super, which is only gold armor !!! Elegant work AulëTheSmith !!!
Tribute System
I like your idea of leveling him with money, but by using this system you can get Smaug way too early. Especially factions Imladris would have really big problems against a 500 ress Smaug in the early game. His first appearance should be in the lategame like Drogoth did in Edain 3.8.1. Smaug and other dragons shouldn't be the center of Misty Mountains. It should stay focused on Orcs, Wargs, and trolls. And the most important effect of Misty Mountains central spell should not be related to an outpost building.
Dear AulëTheSmith . It's just brilliant and insanely good work. Your proposal deserves praise. Great ideas and very beautiful icons for abilities. Truly a worthy offer. As for the abilities of Smaug, I give you my voice +1. But I would like to clarify a few points.
1) What is the essence of the Dragon's disease ability?
2) For the ability "My claws are spears" only suggest adding + 25/30% armor against spearmen. This will give the best effect for a breakthrough through the ranks of enemies.
3) How the ability of the "Hypnotic Gaze" works. I support your vision of the essence of this ability, but how do you propose to implement it? It will be an analog of a powerful fear ability that will also spread to heroes (passive ability as nazgul, only more powerful), or on the contrary it will be an active ability that will weaken an individual hero ???
But I am categorically opposed to the fact that Smaug was central to the book of spells. I believe that the best place for Smaug is the last attacking ability for 10 points. The reason is simple, Despite the fact that even for me Smaug is one of the most beloved heroes, and thanks to you AulëTheSmith and your proposal, so also the most beautiful along with the Necromancer, but nevertheless my answer is simple: the central ability should reflect the essence of the faction, and in this case the specific character of the orcs of the Misty Mountains. I personally lean towards a raid. The essence of it in the following: receiving money, and updating the armor and weapons at the expense of dead enemies. (update armor and weapons only apply to goblins, for trolls and others will have to buy). Also, despite the confluence of circumstances, since the goblins and dragons fought against the dwarves, Smaug was not once in league with the goblins. But if this argument may seem a little I offer a few more nuances for discussion:
1) Smaug too strong for a stationary hero
2) Smaug as a stationary hero leads to an imbalance, the Misty Mountains already have Bolg (a very strong tank / leader), Azog, the Great Goblin, the leader of the goblins of Moria, Tom, Beal and Burt. Well, do not forget about the Super Balrog;
3) What ability can be offered for 10 points ??? if it's not Smaug.
So, if we summarize all of the above, then I propose the following: What would Smaug be a recruiting hero for 10 points. But thanks to your proposal dear AulëTheSmith with the tribute system you can adjust the time of the call of Smaug. I do not know about you, but it seems to me that this will be the best compromise for the Misty Mountains.
I apologize AulëTheSmith for my criticism. But you definitely get my vote +1. Bravo !!! And yes, I almost forgot the ring system just super, which is only gold armor !!! Elegant work AulëTheSmith !!!
I like the idea of Smaug having both a ground and flying form based on the animations of Summoned Dragon and Drogoth from the original game. I also like the different abilities you have proposed. Although it would probably make the Misty Mountains way too powerful, I would not mind having Smaug as a stationary hero. Especially if he would have all of these abilities. I do not want him to disappear before I used all of his abilities you know. :P But perhaps it is for the best if he becomes one of the two final spellbook powers, the Balrog being the other one.
I would love to see Smaug make an appearance in the game. I would be happy with many incarnations of the character, but your concept for Smaug is definitely something I support. I am also very much in favor of having a golden Smaug as the factions ring-hero. Which could just be a simple reskin of the character model.
I don't know Aule, I don't want Smaug to be too expensive, I mean, he could be devastating to armies, but he could not hold a candle to Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, or the Balrog (not a permanent hero so who cares), and maybe Glorfindel would be too much for him as well.
So the fact is this, I agree with everything, but I can only see a high price for Smaug's devestation on the army units, he should not be able to beat Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, or maybe Glorfindel/Alatar.
So with that in mind, he shouldn't be too expensive unless he is devastating to army units more than the above mentioned.
Good job man. I really wish to see this in a game :) Perfect.
Like I said in the other thread, I agree :).
Everything seems quite fitting exept the Dragon Sickness passive ability. In my opinion, it's very controversial due to:
- Need to keep Smaug near enemy buildings to make sure the ability works against them
- Need to avoid keeping Smaug near your own buildings which is a massive backfire thing. If injured, he must flee back to regenerate and in this case your own economy may starve.
- From what I understood Smaug is mid,~far mid, late game hero. Having such an effect upon economical structures may be almost irrelevant by that time.
- This ability forces Smaug to be close to enemy encampment which threatens him greatly if the enemy has mass archers. Too wide radius can be simply OP. So this is a balance issue as well as gameplay problem.
Misty Mountains faction has a wide choice of units and spells of stealing resources or eco disruption at it's disposal. Let's not forget about that. Let Smaug be who he is, a huge mass slayer monstrocity. Also, having almost ALL units in this faction who can steal or affect an economy can be sick. I like your concept but I don't like the idea of Smaug being an all-rounder as well as I don't like this ability. However, I may suggest something here, because as I don't agree, there must be some kind of alternative.
As the ability was likely based on the themes of his greed and the desolation he makes, it's not all about desolation and death. It's likely more Khamul's thing. Smaug just makes everyone leave the place, acting as a threatening but sleeping force inside someone's domain. So he may still retain his eco structure affecting properties by having an ability, for example, like digging himself into an enemy eco or another outer building, reducing any income to 0 or disabling it's all functions and increasing the strength of all YOUR units around it as well as debuffing enemy units around. Or he can dig himself into your own tunnel to act as a debuffing force (if such an eco structure can be built on an outer settlement).
An important note,i'm sorry if it is not clearly written: the ability is meant to work only when Smaug is on the ground (i think is more logical that he cannot steal resources when in flight). When Smaug lands on the ground, he plunders everything around him without distinguish between enemy and allies. I think the fact that it works also against you is an important peculiarity because it captures well his careless and greedy character.
For the issue of balance, i repeat that the values can be adjusted to be punchy also in mid-late game. The right equilibrium can be found only by testing his ability ;)
Then what do you propose Dark One, cause I can tell you honestly that
A. Smaug was in fact greedy and didn't want a single coin given to anyone.
B. He was smart but arrogance blinded him, as Aule shows. Smaug showed Bilbo his weak spot without even knowing it was there himself--so that adds to his spur of emotions.
C. Smartness doesn't cover everything, sometimes smartness is foregone for emotions. Read on Smaug vs Balrog for clarification on this statement. 8-|
D. Aule presented a very clear depiction of the character and a canoncially implemented way for the MM to use Smaug. I for one feel it is perfect for what Edain is trying to do with Smaug. So if you have something better, by all means, present it.
Well, what can I say... I LOVE this concept. It even has the names of the abilities being Smaug quotes, which is something I wanted so much!
Count me in favour of this suggestion, Aulë! You truly are a masterful craftsman, as your Valar namesake :)
Aule, I would like ask you something, you are probably one the best if not the best person to come up with canonical abilities for characters. You bring lore, canon, and gameplay into one cohesive function that everybody can love and enjoy. So could I ask you for some other concept ideas since you and I worked on the Durin VII concept together.
Would you be willing to do the same thing for Alatar (Morinehtar), Pallando (Romestamo), or the Balrog just for fun? If you feel you only have time for one, I would like to see Morinehtar's concept more than any including what would happen if he would get the One Ring.
I really like this suggestion. I hope this gets it's way into the mod.
Yeah, about the Smaug being a ring hero AND FLYING WHILE AT IT...
Does't this mean that if Smaug dies on unpassable mountain terrarin or over water then the ring becomes impossible to get (i guess you could wait out for Gollum to take back the ring...even though it would take some time)?
I think this was the reason why you could not use units/heros with ring on transport boat and Witch King could not fly with the ring in the vanilla game.
If I remember correctly the ring stayed in the treasury in 3.81. So Smaug didn't loose it upon death.
But esparado is correct - this was a reason why Smaug never was a normal ring hero in edain. Also this is a really big issue and not a small problem, which should never be overlooked in a concept. Just imagine you're playing and you can see the ring all the time, but you can't reach it, because it lays 2 meters away in a mountain area. This is just frustrating for every player without much counterplay.
If I remember correctly the ring stayed in the treasury in 3.81. So Smaug didn't loose it upon death.
But esparado is correct - this was a reason why Smaug never was a normal ring hero in edain. Also this is a really big issue and not a small problem, which should never be overlooked in a concept. Just imagine you're playing and you can see the ring all the time, but you can't reach it, because it lays 2 meters away in a mountain area. This is just frustrating for every player without much counterplay.
Yeah, about the Smaug being a ring hero AND FLYING WHILE AT IT...
Does't this mean that if Smaug dies on unpassable mountain terrarin or over water then the ring becomes impossible to get (i guess you could wait out for Gollum to take back the ring...even though it would take some time)?
I think this was the reason why you could not use units/heros with ring on transport boat and Witch King could not fly with the ring in the vanilla game.
Hi esparado :) welcome to the discussion ;)
I did not think about these issues. Probably also in the 3.8.1 patch there were these issues since Smaug was a ring feature (and he could fly). But,you know, we cannot avoid totally any problem. I don't know what could be a possible solution. Btw, what do you think about the very core of the concept? :)
If I remember correctly the ring stayed in the treasury in 3.81. So Smaug didn't loose it upon death.
But esparado is correct - this was a reason why Smaug never was a normal ring hero in edain. Also this is a really big issue and not a small problem, which should never be overlooked in a concept. Just imagine you're playing and you can see the ring all the time, but you can't reach it, because it lays 2 meters away in a mountain area. This is just frustrating for every player without much counterplay.
Hi Gnomi, thank you very much for your feedback :) now I remember. Currently we cannot sadly repeat the same function, due to the new ring system, so...I have no idea how to solve this issue, neither I think there is a way to avoid the drop in not walking regions like water or something else via coding... :(
If the ring lands in unpassable terrain, Gollum will get it, but won't be able to move or leave this area anymore.
Also, please could you stop writing double (or even triple) posts.
Even if I deem Smaug a very important character ( i put all my passion in the work ) I don't want the team to change the actual system only because of this issue. I think I will change the concept instead, studying a solution. This could mean that new constrains could be added, and that could even more justify the great power of Smaug. I just have some ideas.
The idea of esperado about transferring the ring to the dragon lair is good, but has an edge: when Smaug pick up the ring a dragon lair must be present in game, otherwise the ring cannot be stored. I think I'm going to elaborate something around this building-based concept, as it was in the 3.8.1 .
If anyone have an some other ideas, I would like to know as always :)
Well, if the Dragon Lair is destroyed then Smaug will not be able to pick up the ring, it's as easy as that :)
Yep, if this can be coded without to much stress, then go for it ;)
I see that my faith was not misplaced. I love it Aule, this sounds perfect and should be incorporated ASAP! I think it being part of his treasure and the scenario if he loses it is canonical. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT.
I look forward to all other ideas you come up with, as I know that your love for Tolkien's work is only matched probably by the fanaticism of a few Tolkienists. Great job buddy!
It's really good that the proposal has been polished further. I daresay, you are right to focus on the lore of the fire-breathing Worms of the Elder Days and the new effect of Hypnotic Gaze seems quite fair to me, being an accurate representation of what those malicious eyes exactly did (taking control of the victims and stir folly within them). I'm partially sceptical about an aspect, though. A risk that the context entails.
What worries me, gentle Aulë, is the prospect of one's mightiest hero to be simply used and toyed with as a mere puppet of Smaug. Will there be a limit to the ability? A threshold which one cannot go beyond? Ring-heroes of the likes of Galadriel, Gandalf or Elrond ought to be counted out from the list of possible targets of this feature. What do you think about it? Is my concern legitimate?
I think Smaug's hypnotic gaze should more stun the heroes from moving. I mean, totally dominating them and controlling them is out of the question as Walkure pointed out. I feel the concept is perfect, but I feel that the hypnotic gaze should possible just stop characters from moving/attacking for a couple of seconds. Put them in a daze or something...
Well based on Edain, I think the Hypnotic gaze was just going to act like Saruman's Wormtongue ability. But like you said, that isn't very unique. I mean, I guess you could have it "cripple" like Lurtz's ability, but as the hero survives they reveal what they know about their faction. As the Goblin Player, you can see the enemies resources, powers, and basically everything about the faction.
This is canonical because it represents Smaug talking to Bilbo and gaining insights into Lake Town, where Bilbo was from, etc.
Dark Manipulation (the name of ability can change, in fact i'm not totally satisfied about it)(requires level 10) : The Dark Lord concentrates the power of the ring to torture and finally control the mind of an enemy hero. The selected enemy hero can suffer 3 possible effect:
1)The enemy hero is not able to resist before the mighty power of a Maiar. He totally lose his mind and finally Sauron is able to control him and use him for his purposes. The enemy hero is temporary convert on your side and filled with a new strenght: he has +50% attack. However, due to the corruption of his mind, he cannot use abilities.
2) The mind of the enemy hero is tortured and Sauron force him to reveal all his plans and secrets: for a long time ALL of the enemy heros share their sight with you and they are 25% slower.
3) The enemy hero free himself from the dark vice of Sauron but he's demoralized and outworn: he has -25% of attack and defence for a short time.
The ability cannot be activated together with "Dark Will" . The three effect are in decreasing order of power and are random. However i thinked about an inverse proportion between level of the hero and probability to suffer a more powerful effect: the most the hero is experienced, the most will be able to resist. In this way the first effect is more probable from level from 1 to 3, the second from 3 to 6, the last one from 6 to 10. Of course sounds a bit complicated but fitting in my opinion. I don't know about possible technical problems regarding this i'm not an expert [ugly].
Of course you have to focuse your attention to the general idea because details and parameters can be changed. I need your opinion to know if it's a good and fitting idea and a valid substitution of Tol-In-Gaurhoth. (REMEMBER: only for the ring form xD)
We really should endeavour and try to find a decent solution that complies both to the uniqueness standards of the game and to a level-10 feature. Mirroring other characters' abilities would be of no use for the purpose. The concept itself of controlling enemy heroes is very much suitable for the case and I thus believe we ought to stick to the path we have set ourselves on. For the sake of that crucial lore reference to the First Age. I would therefore insist on such an effect, as long as it is confined within clear boundaries.
I like your past proposal, Aulë. It's worth being recycled, methinks. The concept leaves some margin for the victim to withstand the gaze of the dragon, proving enough resistant and resilient to pass such test, if we may say so. It interests me, as a theme. Clearly, on the other hand, it is imperative that Ring-heroes be excluded from the equation for the aforementioned reasons.
Except for the technical feasibility of the general idea, about which we are surely in need of clarifications from the developers, I think we are in the right direction. We needn't come up with different things :)
1. If you exclude Ring Heroes, then you exclude Theoden...yeah that is totally canonical.
2. Smaug NEVER took over an enemy hero in the books. If he could do that he would have hypnotized Thror into just migrating to Ered Luin and have the Dwarfs leave Erebor's treasure to him.
3. The ability listed by you Aule for Sauron is perfect for the Dark Lord--canonical too, I would continue to run with that for him, but not Smaug. This is totally out of place for his character.
4. If you are choosing to stay with the hypnotic gaze Aule, then have it lower something on heroes, ie armor, ability timers, etc. I just don't see Smaug dominating heroes on the battlefield, it is totally uncanonical. I mean even Glaurung didn't take over Turin or Nienor (which is the bases from which you guys are drawing this ability). Glaurung only destroyed Nienor's memory and froze/transfixed Turin in place during the Sack of Nargathrond. NO WHERE does it ever say Glaurung took over the minds of others!
So with all of these in mind, if you are wanting to keep hypnotic gaze, then it has to be some type of inhibiting ability.
Well let's just put a laser cannon on Smaug's back and have him shoot beams, that should be quite unique indeed... [ugly] [uglybunti]
The reason I brought up Theoden is because he was actually inhibited (books) or taken over (movie) by Saruman/Wormtongue. He is a ring hero so the ability that is proposed for Smaug would effect him if going by canon.
Bilbo was now beginning to feel really uncomfortable. Whenever Smaug's roving eye, seeking for him in the shadows, flashed across him, he trembled, and an unaccountable desire seized hold of him to rush out and reveal himself and tell all the truth to Smaug. In fact he was in grievous danger of coming under the dragon-spell. But plucking up courage he spoke again.
The issue here is there is no resistance factor like in the books. If Smaug uses the ability, the hero is controlled. I just see that as too powerful, and as far as uniqueness goes. Wormtongue did it.
I'd just like to say how much I love this idea. You have my support AulëTheSmith.
In terms of the hero conversion ability, I agree that some heroes shouldn't be affected by the ability. I'd say all Ring Heroes aren't affected by the ability. For all other heroes, there is a 33% chance that they are converted. If they aren't converted, they are weakened for a small time (e.g. abilities recharge slower, slower attack speed, and reduced experience gain).
Aule, have you also considered what would happen if the Nazgul were taken over? I mean they draw power from Sauron, I mean their level is his level/rank. So if you convert them, would that be a coding issue? Could they even do anything? I don't personally know. That is why I think there should be a list of heroes who are affected and who aren't. That way like you said there is balance and the ability is still effective.
I mean, just because I can't control Sauron or Gandalf, doesn't mean the ability is useless, converting Mollock or Denethor can still be traumatic to the enemy. So as stated earlier, make a list of heroes who would be affected by Smaug's gaze so that we have something better to go on and implement.
Well just read my above list of heroes that should or shouldn't be affected. I say we have a discussion here. If you feel someone on my list (as shown above) should/shouldn't be affected, state why and the source.
Aule, one of the things I am thankful for is your devotion and skill to this craft--my nit pickiness is just that and nothing more. It is tied to the lore, so if I seem like a broken record...it is because I am and I have no soul ;)
JK, but joking aside, I do support this ability full heartily I have said that numerous times. I think the list I presented is a perfect place to resource on who Smaug could affect with his gaze.
Theoretically, there is no boundary or some sort of limit that might constrain people during the debating of a concept, provided that all belongs to the topic which is being discussed. Said that, I second the Smith's words: focusing on details is always fine, but it wouldn't be wise and constructive for our scope, if we were to twist and change the foundations of the concept radically, lest we start a chain of infinite debates and lengthy as well, without this thread benefiting from any of that. The very purpose of this topic was the showcasing of a quite established suggestion, comprised of all the needed indications. It follows that, if there is someone who agrees with the kernel of the proposal, albeit being wary of a couple of details, I wholeheartedly suggest them express themselves in plain terms first, and then we could delve deeply into the minor sides of the conceptual construction. The utmost objective of ours is the gathering of all support possible in the forum, if people share favourable opinions in regards of the founding premises of this concept.
Cool now I can hypnotize Bard and don't have to worry about that black arrow. Thank you.By using your own logic, Galadriel should basically be immune to pretty much all heroes, the Witch-king could only be slain by female characters or creatures, the Dark Lord would literally be invincible, the Ring-wraiths could not be killed by standard units and the list goes on and on. The game would therefore be rendered a living hell and nightmare.
The lore serves the noblest of the purposes, when it gives rationality and substance to a given concept, finding that proper coherence that permits a feature to fare well in a real-time strategy game; not when it's used to force itself into the game in such a disruptive manner or to back ridiculous arguments.
If I was so attached to the lore, I would still be complaining about Smaug being a ring hero when in the books it says that he can't use any of his treasure (a brass ring of it). States that in the Hobbit.
So I don't think I am stuck on the lore. I am stuck on balance though, and that is why I said what I said.
Hello people, I come really late to this thread (and back to this forum in general actually), and I would like to give my two cents on this topin, which I admit I love.
First of all, my most honest congratulations and thanks to Aule, whom gave us such an in-depth, extremely reasoned concept about Smaug, about whom I agree on nearly everything, images included! XD
There would be a few things I would adress though. I apologise if some things have already been pointed out or suggestions already made, I am terrible at remembering, so please know that I mean no offense whatsoever.
I agree with others that Smaug should be important to the faction, but the central thing would be the Orcs, and Bolg getting this messy load of monsters under firm control, so I would not have Smaug as a central spell.
Another thing would be that, while it would be awesome to have Smaug in game as soon as possible, maybe it would be overkill. Here is what I would say:
Have a building called 'Tresure Chamber', not really related to Dragons, that just accumulates the loot MM make with all their various ways. In this case, Smaug would be the 10-tier power next to the Balrog, in the sense that you activate his recruitment from a Tresure Chamber. Given the Team's intent to have a power more on the offensive and another on the defensive side, I would say the Balrog is the obvious offense, being that you summon a very edgy and fiery-tempered Demon right under the enemy's nose, a bit like Gondor's Army of the Dead. Still referring to Gondor's spellbook, and basing on the Rohirrim spell, I would say that Smaug would cost quite a number of resources (not the 10.000 of vanilla ring heroes of course) and come with a short delay, given he has to fly to a set location, while the Balrog directly emerges from the depths.
This is merely a concept of how to recruit Smaug, whom some have said to be too powerful of a beast to be recruitable as normal heroes. Otherwise the concept given by Aule is, to me, absolutely perfect.
About the Ring part for Smaug, I agree the Ring makes more sense into the treasure chamber rather than on the Dragon himself (which is honestly kinda fun to think about), but as to its possible effects, I'm not sure. Given that Smaug is considered a 'defensive' spell in the concept I'm proposing here, I would say he gains increased armor while close to allied structures and a power boost, and perhaps a fiery aura about him that gives passive burn damage. Just throwing out ideas here.
Thanks again for the awesome concept Aule :)
I am in for the whole idea and concept about Smaug. Consider me with this reply as +1 for it.
Hello again and thanks for your words Aule :)
Hmmm I see, may have missed the part where the central spell was all about the monsters (which btw I agree MM is all about)
Now the banner from BOTFA was...unexpected from my side, but totally welcome a concept! :D
Ah, I see. Well, 3000 is fine, I'd say. :)
ITA: Sissignore ci ha visto alla grande! Piacere mio capo :)
Btw, count me in with a +1!
You are both completely right Aulë and Walk. The topic should focus on the core of the concept, the abilities and details are of later importance.
Thus I wanted to address a few things I noticed while reading through the first page proposal again.
First, there seem to be 6 abilities in both Smaug forms, including one for landing and for taking flight. Is this on purpose? I imagine it would be interesting to have the stances button work in this aspect, but on the other side it grants a strong mass-slayer hero more ability slots, which should be balanced out in the end by making his abilities relatively weaker.
Second, the Dragon Lair aspect needs some refinement. I assume it will be built on an outpost spot, which begs the question what other purposes it fulfills. Also, we need to determine its style: will it be like the Dale village, Mirkwood or Border Stronghold? Or perhaps a design unique to the Goblin playstyle, offering straightforward and simple gameplay? With that in mind we can establish the cost of the outpost, which has direct consequences for the strategic timing of the Tribute system, and indirectly to Smaug's strength.
Personally I would like to see the Misty Mountains as an uncomplicated faction which gets many of its upgrades, buffs, leadership and building levels through instantaneous and temporary means. This should offer an interesting contrast to factions that are strong throughout all phases of the game (Dwarves and Lórien), as well as to factions that build up power till a late game climax (Isengard and Imladris).
What this means for the Dragon Lair outpost in particular, and the central spell for the Misty Mountains in general, is a clear distinction between the different stages of upgraded creep lairs. So far we know the Misty Mountains builds Warg/Wolf lairs and Troll Caves on settlements, and two outposts related to Dragons and Mountain Giants. These buildings will offer two-tiered advantages to the player: initially they will produce resources and recruit corresponding monsters, in the second phase they offer buffs or unlock certain units.
The Dragon Lair recruits Fire Drakes (perhaps Cold Drakes too, if a niche is found for them) and produces medium resources in the beginning. As the Central Spell is unlocked the Drakes can be upgraded through the system known from 3.8 growing up with wings etc. (correct me if I'm wrong here, I haven't played this version). Additionally Smaug can be summoned through tributes. As for Smaug I would propose these tributes to unlock a certain abilities rather than increase his level, because it seems more simple to me and because it allows for making the Tribute System feel more necessary. Thus it is worthwhile investing in all 'steps' of tributes, because they unlock 3-4 of his abilities.
I hope this inspires you Aulë. I promise to keep a frequent eye out on the developments here ;)
Due to the own proposal getting more than 15 votes of approval, as it used to be customary in the past, I shall hereafter include it among the other major concepts of our forum, worthy of considerable note. I'm glad that another proposal joins the family of the Fantastic Four, as I call them. Nevertheless, I hope that what is to be will in fact be well-boding for the purpose of our concerted effort :)
May I also thank all of those who have contributed greatly for the cause and made sure that a really fruitful debate was possible in the politest terms; and I would stress the latter, lest nothing good could result from all of this. It will obviously be possible to garner additional support or negative feedback. The thread will remain open to all.
I agree with the core reasoning of Aulë and I add this: taking into account the new role of central spells and their pivotal meaning (they're also referred to as faction spells not without a reason), I see Smaug as the most fitting candidate for our purpose. He towers in potency over all other beasts and simply refuses to swear allegiance to anyone, unless it is for his own advantage; let alone being forced into an alliance by means of intimidation or other tricks. Moreover, although the future spells of the Misty Mountains are still wrapped in mystery, if I were to reintroduce Untamed Allegiance in the spellbook, I would leave the spell as a basic feature (first or second tier) and unaltered, being it already unique and quite iconic.
So, the kernel is that I would nonetheless have Smaug be at the centre of things. We have already gone through the proper quality of the character and his independent trait. I think such implementation would do him justice.
Besides, set aside details and alternatives, do you feel like agreeing with the general structure of the proposal, Garlodur? :)
Besides, set aside details and alternatives, do you feel like agreeing with the general structure of the proposal, Garlodur? :)
Coming again to the very protagonist of the thread: the ring form and tribute system. If i understood well would you like to make him unlocking abilities by paying tributes. I saw something like that in Hero Submod videos, and it seems quite fitting with the character, even though i would make it more simple. The old one it was too complicated. And, what about the level when you summon him in his temporary form? Should he get limited stats, but with the liberty to unlock all the abilities even though the central spell is not unlocked yet? Admitted that it was in your idea to keep the temporary summon. I'm sorry it is just to better understand your view about the matter, maybe i lost something during reading :D
Regarding the ring form: it is similar to my idea, from the moment Smaug wears the ring, both because of grediness and because of the Golden armor, he will become slower and uncontrollable. But if you want Smaug's power inverse proportional to your stockpile, then maybe it could not be so effective given that it is a late game hero, and in late game usually you have a lot of resources? Ok let's say in this way the player is encouraged to squander his great wealth in order to reinforce Smaug [ugly].
Anyway, let me know what do you think in details :)
Other options for the spell's own title could be the ones I am to show below. Note that each of them connects with the major theme of greed of the faction, which undoubtedly underlines all. While, if I may say, Untamed Allegiance explores a quite different aspect referring to the feral character of those minions and beasts in general. I therefore suggested it be left untouched and just stay where it is (probably) to be placed. Anyway, these are the names I conceived.
1. Ruthless Greed
2. Obsession for Gold
3. Golden Folly
4. Cursed Treasure
5. Cursed Spoils
6. Impious Infestation
7. Fell Thieving
8. Token of Woes
9. Ill Spoils
10. Usurper
Do not tear yourself down so easily! I believe there is always that one thing which each of us excels in. Also, it was you who crafted the core proposal in the first place; you ought to be proud of that. We're just polishing the final details of the case ;)
I agree with you. I find all those titles nice and fancy, but some either sound too much poetic or detach from the actual essence of the feature. For example, it's true that every treasure that was raided by akin creatures has been in a sense cursed; it does represent a grievous testimony of defeat, it's true. Such descriptions relate more to the victims, though, rather than the very perpetrators. Henceforth, I think that Usurper embodies all we want to express and tells something about the malice of the infesting force at the same time. I would also leave it in the singular form, because it seems more general: it obviously refers to Smaug, primarily, yet its meaning may also get wider and comprehend the common trait of Goblins. That is, anyone of their ilk is a usurper. Last but not least, a usurper is he who took possession of someone else's treasure or, more frequently in old tales, of a kingdom/throne
P.S. There are people who even excel in being awful, but this is another story [ugly]
I just updated the title of the thread. I wasn't acquainted with Smaug's titles in the English original translation and I did not know that it was 'chiefest' and not 'cheapest'. I had some doubts, thinking about some possible old-fashioned meaning of 'cheap', until I was casually watching that sequence in English, yesterday, and I discovered the right word.
It was objectively an improper choice, as if Smaug had been turned into a good or a commodity :P
Regarding instead the tribute system, i'll make it more cool to play starting from Garlodur's ideas for sure. I sincerely did not spend so much time on that part [ugly] rather i concentrated all my efforts on main abilities and core.
Still, if I may ask, what do you think of my arguments for implementing the tribute system in such a way that unlocks abilities rather than levels?Of course you can ask Garlodur, also I make my apologizes if I was no clear on the argument :). I think it's a good idea and it should make him more balance. At least our duty is to justify his great power in someway. It has to be slowly and with an high price. It's a good way to do it I agree :) also, as I wrote I will free the lair from any level. It will simply get more advanced after the unlocking of central spell ;)
Everyone else is also invited to respond!
I already said I was in favour of this suggestion, so I don't have much to add, but I think that it is even better now! You've managed to make a lore-suitable, interesting and seemingly balanced approach to the recruitment of Smaug, taking into account aspects like him not being a part of the MM army, and only being swayed (sp?) to their help because of gold and treasure. I just want to say, congratulations! :D you also have his quotes as names of abilities, which is something I wanted so much. Well done!
I absolutely second what has been stated by Julio. Further additions to a splendid concept, crafted with passion and much care! Now, you only need to replace the modified (definitive) version with the one showcased in the front page of the thread. Also, thank you very much for including my little composition too; I'm always more than glad to know that my lyrics are appreciated by someone else, somewhere in the forum ;)
And, as far as I have knowledge of, the Edain Team already disposes of all lines of his from DOS; I would say it's well enough to come up with a truly great hero.
I've already said how brilliant this concept is and nothing has changed in that regard. This is one of the best concepts I've read! I especially like how the central spell could affect the other creeps so it isn't just dragon focused.
I do have one question though. From what I've read, it seems like Smaug will only be available from the Dragon Lair. While this is appropriate for the character, it will mean that the Ring Hero for MM will be limited to an outpost hero (a limitation that no other faction has). Wouldn't this give MM a disadvantage?
I support general idea and I really like all skills, wonderful arguments behind them and not generic like "fireball" or something like that. 8-|
1) That Smaug is summonable from the beginning and you have to unlock him through the spellbook. That is quite boring for me and it doesn't help to anything. Also I wonder how AI will react.
2) It leads me to second thing - levelling. Game is based on levelling. You level heroes, units, buildings ... it has not only strategic but mainly RPG feeling. I would be careful with exceptions and Smaug doesn't seem to me like the best candidate for it. He isn't so ancient ... Sauron is ancient, Galadriel is ancient, wizards-maiar are ancient. They are definitely better candidates to start with full arsenal of powers (I mean on level 10 as you proposed for Smaug)
I don't mean he will start on level ten anyway, I mean that if you want his full arsenal you have to pay him each of the treasure.
Initially I proposed something based on normal leveling as you suggested, but then I changed my mind ( if I'm not wrong someone here suggest me the old treasure system, I don't rember) and I definely prefer the treasure system.
Hey Aule and community, I was re-reading the proposal and was wondering why the effects of Smaug's hypnotic gaze was singled out by Sauron, MoS, and the Nazgul. Is it because they don't have conventional eyes?
If this is so then why not Karsh as well? But on a personal preference note, I feel Smaug's gaze shouldn't effect those mentioned above, and it shouldn't effect the three ring bearers either (Gandalf, Galadriel, or Elrond).