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[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Lothlorien Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 9. Nov 2015, 10:58

Titel: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 9. Nov 2015, 10:58
In this thread, you can discuss balancing issues regarding the faction Lothlórien.
If you feel that a balance topic is so big that it might deserve its own thread, you are free to create one; but for smaller points this thread could be definitely useful.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 10. Nov 2015, 04:05
Beornings are very strong, and especially are too strong against heroes. Mordor has no effective affordable counter to Beorning spam during early game, 4 beornings can defeat a nazgul and all it takes is 1 to kill gorbag/shagrat. All it takes is 6-8 Beornings to potentially completely kill Mordor within 10 minutes.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: H4lbarad am 10. Nov 2015, 09:27
Ents are really too weak. They are killed really very fast, and do very small damages to structures.

Furthermore, once they are attacked by flaming arrows, they can't do nothing more, and we know that they will die.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 10. Nov 2015, 10:13
Beornings are very strong, and especially are too strong against heroes. Mordor has no effective affordable counter to Beorning spam during early game, 4 beornings can defeat a nazgul and all it takes is 1 to kill gorbag/shagrat. All it takes is 6-8 Beornings to potentially completely kill Mordor within 10 minutes.
Same happens with Isengard. Dunlendings and Scouts are completely useless against Beorninger, and as soon as the enemy starts spamming them I usually lose. I like their strength, of course, but I think it's ridiculous they can stand up to whole armies by themselves
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 10. Nov 2015, 12:35
Zitat
4 beornings can defeat a nazgul and all it takes is 1 to kill gorbag/shagrat
Ok, let us think about it: 4 Beornings have a cost around 4x350= 1400. Blackrider's have a cost around 1100, less then 4 Beorningers. In my opinion its abslutly in balance if 4 Beorningers are able to kill a Nazgul and 1 Beorninger is able to kill shagrat/gorbag (cost 200 -> Beorninger 350). Keep in mind, that you are able to flee with the Nazgul to autoheal them in your base, Beornings arent able to autoheal.

Its absolutly no problem to reduce the damage of the Beornings, but in fact this arguments are incomprehensible.^^
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Bogdan Hmel am 10. Nov 2015, 13:47
 But they cause too much damage to buildings(Beornings).
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: (Palland)Raschi am 10. Nov 2015, 14:07
Zitat
But they cause too much damage to buildings(Beornings).

I do not consider this fact to be a Problem at all. Lorien does not have a great amount of siege weapons in its arsenal and Ents are not as cheap, effective and early available as most rams are.
Therefore Lorien Needs this Kind of unit in the first periods of time of the game to harm buildings effectively.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 10. Nov 2015, 14:08
Well I'm comparing it to Berserkers, when last I played 4 berserkers aren't able to kill a hero. Also I may have exaggerated a bit, it was in the heat of battle so its hard to tell for sure how many were hitting me. All I know is that 4 beornings killed 2 of my nazgul and Gorbag, and the only units supporting them were a couple of lorien archers/warriors. I was backed up by 2 units of ungol halberds and black uruks, as well as a bunch of basic orcs, and the tiny army beat mine because of the beornings.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 11. Nov 2015, 15:55
EDIT: On advise of the ET, I posted my topic here instead. I thought it was large enough to warrant its own thread, but it seems I was wrong.

Good day fellow Edainers,

I had a few issues I stumbled upon when playing with or against Lothlorien, and some of the upcoming points have already been mentioned before by fellow Edainers. I tried shifting tactics to deal with these issues, but in vain so far (4 games so far, 1 Gondor, 1 Mordor, 2 Isengard). The nature of these balance issues is such, that there is no different result depending on the faction I play with. I am aware that the faction is still somewhat in an early stage of balance, so hiccups are naturally present, but they would need addressment as soon as possible if only for the health of the competitive environment of the mod. Please be aware that this is not a rant or anything of the sort, but a global observation from both watching and playing with and against the new faction.

Although before I do that, I wanted to say that I enjoy most of the mechanics you gave to Lothlorien's units, and that the majority of the infantry and heroes feel accurate and are fun to use. Most of the standard units for both Lorien and Mirkwood have a variety of tactics and strategies to offer, so well done in that regard!

However, when it comes to the heroes and a certain unit, I sincerely believe that work has to be done. I would not say you dropped the ball on them, but you were close if it was up to me to say.

Now, on to points of constructive criticism I present including the corresponding suggestions underneath:


Thoughts on Lothlorien's remaining heroes:


That is it so far. I hope you will take the time to read my concerns as it took me some time to make this post. As it stands, I enjoy playing with Lothlorien, but playing against the faction has been a somewhat frustrating experience for me so far, something which I have not had that much with the other factions.

I look forward to your thoughts!

Kind regards,

Odysseus
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Walküre am 11. Nov 2015, 19:40
EDIT: On advise of the ET, I posted my topic here instead. I thought it was large enough to warrant its own thread, but it seems I was wrong.


As this is not a Brief Suggestions thread, there are theoretically no boundaries in length or width, if not obviously Reason itself  :)
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 11. Nov 2015, 21:26
This is a copy paste from the comment I made on the OP:

Beornings and Grimbeorn
Yes, true to the bijillionth power

Thranduil & Wine Cellar Hero cost reduction
I'd suggest to merge those two into a single suggestion. So maybe a small combined nerf of both.

Hawk Strike
+1 for the nerf

Galadriel
She's pretty nice and well designed. If I wasn't trying to take over the whole of Middle Earth to plunge it into an era of darkness and ràise the ancient kingdom of Angmar I'd probably go have a little chat with her in Lorien.

Haldir
I don't think he should get an price boost. He isn't as good as Lurtz.

Celeborn
No price boost, maybe simply a little damage nerf, but the fact that he gets taken down quickly balances out his mighty power.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 11. Nov 2015, 21:54
@Odysseus: Why would you switch Galadriel's and Grimbeorn's cost exactly? I find both of them to be priced quite accurately for their performance, although I never used Grimbeorn that much.

+1 to nerfing Hawk Strike. I don't even think his upgraded version should be as powerful as this [ugly]

I'm not quite sure what happend when you fought Thranduil with Lurtz and Ugluk, but you should have won that fight easily unless he had his shield up. In that case he should have a chance since both your heroes were at level one and he costs 2400. That is quite a bit more than Boromir. And his damage output is still nothing spectacular, but very much average.

As for Celeborn being stronger than Aragorn, I'd have to disagree as well. Aragorn attacks faster, has access to the very clearly better swordmaster ability which is also at level one and gets a leadership and some crowdcontrol later on.


As for the beornings: They are very clearly too strong atm, but their strength against buildings needs to stay. Lorien has no siege except Ents, which are very, very expensive. Beornings in their human form fill the hole of light siege weapons (somewhat comparable to rams for other factions).
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 11. Nov 2015, 21:56
I pretty much agree with Elendils about everything.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 12. Nov 2015, 01:57
Thank you for the reply gentlemen,

Hmm yes, you guys might be right. I have been trying some alternative methods to see what helps and with varying success. I am only certain of Beornings being too cost effective so far. As it stands, they can combine a form of cavalry with knockback, light siege, anti-infantry and a decent form of anti-hero damage. Some features need to be tweaked or removed, I feel. They offer too much for only 350.

I am not sure what is exactly the case, but does Thranduil's shield completely nullify damage or reduce it drastically? If the former is the case, the 10 second ''invulnerability'' might just be the reason why there was little I could do against it with both Lurtz and Ugluk.

Either way, the Silvan Elves have some scary heroes if I do say so myself haha!
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: ™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™ am 12. Nov 2015, 09:46
Beornings should cost 600-700. And I believe their human form can get some nerfs so you use  bear-form more often.(Perhaps weaker to archer arrows)
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 12. Nov 2015, 19:54
I definitely support a nerf of beornings, currently they are too powerful in human form. I would heavily nerf their unit damage in human form and/or make them more vulnerable to arrows, while keeping their building damage. Basically I want bear form for wrecking units, human form for basically being a battering ram. I wouldn't mind galadriel's elven gifts moving to level 5 or even 3, it's tough to level her fast enough to get more than maybe 2 heroes with the gifts.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 12. Nov 2015, 23:53
I agree with Sir_Stig, though I'd prefer Gifts of Lorien to be moved to lower levels. Actually, level 7 it's pretty far, and most of the time, if you're skilled enough, by the time you get the ability the game is almost over, therefore making it nearly useless (while it should be a key mechanic)
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 13. Nov 2015, 16:44
Is a fact that a beorning should cost more than a cirith ungol batallion because they are game-breaking. Early game have no sense against them, the only counter that i have found is get early forged blades that just destroy them, against the bear-form pikes, and against the normal form, swordsmen. The best anti-beorning faction in fact is Gondor because of high numbers and medium tiered basic infantry, then the anti-monsters units of Erebor and Ironhills from their outposts. The best way would be increasing to 500 the cost of Beornings and the honey house cost to 800. Making them an avaiablke tactic for mid game. But it is my sugestion any nerf you make to them will balance a bit more the new elves.

 
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: ziqing am 17. Nov 2015, 06:09
I do feel as the only good faction without walls, Lorien Citadel is extremely vulnerable against siege weapon, two Battering Ram of Isengard near the Citadel  could easily destroy it and all buildings
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 17. Nov 2015, 20:17
Silverthorns wreck battering rams.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 25. Nov 2015, 07:13
Just wanted to post a link to some points I made in the replay section rather than retyping everything. I wouldn't say its off topic as the reason I posted the replay was to demonstrate the points I listed, which is why I put them in the replay thread under the same post as the posted replay.

http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31431.0/topicseen.html
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Lord of Mordor am 25. Nov 2015, 10:31
The replay thread is not meant to discuss ideas. If you have suggestions, it's best to post them in the appropriate thread and link to the replay that proves the point if you have one. I'm not sure if you can actually attach replays in this forum area, is that possible? If so, there's nothing wrong with attaching a replay to a suggestion if it helps illustrate your point. If that's not possible at the moment I'll look into enabling it.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 25. Nov 2015, 20:48
@Elite KryPtik:
I just watched your replay. I won't say I disagree with you but keep in mind that when Gondor charged your pikesmen, he got fully upgraded knights (heavy armor and knight shields) with Dol Amroth soldiers and level 3 Imrahil. I don't think winning this battle was outrageous. ^^
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 25. Nov 2015, 22:26
It's kind of tricky to judge, but I'll do it anyway.

First and foremost, Golf of Lune is in my opinion way too friendly to the strategy Legolas employed during your game. Just sit back and build tons of resource structures behind gates and watch the money roll in when they are eventually upgraded. It's extremely risky to raid your opponent's base in this mod anyway, especially with castles. On such a big 1v1 map, it becomes even more evident. This is why I prefer outposts, but that's just me.

Furthermore, it's easy to say this in hindsight, but you made a couple of mistakes.
Immediately going for Beornings was the first mistake, in my opinion. They are too expensive too rush and should time similarly as light siege. Do players rush siege works? Not really, so there is that. However, I do agree with your trampling immunity argument. Also, as they fullfill that role, it is generally a bad idea to use light siege (Beornings thus) against cavalry, because that is what they are most vulnerable to. Yes, even when Beornings do such high single target damage. It is too risky, I find.

The second mistake was not upgrading your lothlorien pikes sooner with master blades. Upgrading archers against cavalry is normally a bad idea, since well you know...cavalry are the natural counter to archers. What you could have tried was to stun his massive cavalry blob with the mystical stream spell and encircle them with master bladed pikes. That would have been nasty.

The third mistake was not concentrating your efforts on the Mirkwood outpost. Generally, lothlorien pikes will do well against regular cavalry, but once they have fully upgraded Gondor Knights, inspired by Dol Amroth Knights, it becomes a different story as you are aware. Generally, if possible, you should anticipate cavalry spam from Gondor when playing as Elves, and try to get out Palace Guards as soon as possible and upgrade them. They will poop on them.

There were some other mistakes, which I forgot by the time I wrote this. You'd also have the typical minor micro mistakes, but the game is old and it is not the most competitive enviroment friendly game, so it is indeed hard to pull off. Like my micro is impeccable in this game haha (I wish it was.)

To wrap things up, I actually think the most remarkable thing of this replay are the eagles versus catapults. I think it is incredibly clear in this replay that flying units do very little against siege units, which we are anxiously awaiting for the corresponding changes from the team xD.

Kind regards.




Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 26. Nov 2015, 04:20
I was referring to the earlier fight, I think it was 3 units of normal gondor knights without upgrades against what was predominantly pikes in my army, 3 or 4 battalions of them, he cleaned them up no problem. As for upgrading, I didn't go for master blades first for 2 reasons. Firstly, the strategy I was attempting to employ, with varying degrees of success, was to have the pikes catch the cavalry and then have the archers deal the real damage. This was due to the pikes unimpressive performance earlier against normal knights without upgrades. Secondly, its because I wanted to try out the singers trample immunity combined with my Galadhrim, which I had not done yet.

As for rushing Beornings, I did that on purpose to see whether they are still OP or not, because believe me before the patch rushing Beornings was SUPER effective. You may notice that once I realized how bad they were I immediately stopped using them? I think the nerfs were very effective, though I'm not sure if I agree with the price increase on top of the stat reductions. I definitely don't agree with the price increase to the Beorning Homestead itself, I think it should still be 400. Nice to see 2 other people who disagree with Beornings being trampled though :)

Another point is that I really couldn't afford to get Master Blades fast enough to counter him, because of how freaking expensive they are, coupled with the Elves slower than average income rate. This is why I REALLY think that the command points upgrade should be moved to the citadel and made to give more command points per upgrade while being more expensive. This way people don't have to make so many Border Guardhouses, and can get cheaper upgrades sooner if they wish, or can go for a discount on Galadhrim or Heroes. In order for the playstyle to be truly customizable depending on the players desires, there shouldn't be something as essential as a command points upgrade on 1 of the auxiliary structures, because this forces the player to have at least 2 of the basic buildings for the command points. If I could have made 3 Forges and upgrade, it might have turned the game around.

Finally, if you watch the first 15 minutes again, you will see that he rushed to the outpost very quickly before I was even prepared to clear the cave troll, there was no way I could've cleared that out and built the Mirkwood outpost in time, compared to how fast he did it. I also did not have enough money to build it either. Porbably the only real "mistake" that I can think of that was just a complete failure and not me being outplayed, was that terrible attack on his outpost. That may well have cost me the game.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 26. Nov 2015, 14:04
Sorry but you are wrong: even in the earlier fight ALL of his knights got heavy armor (even though there was no dol amroth and no knight shields).

Rushing beornings used to be efficient of course, because they were overpowered as hell (and I think it is still not enough to describe how strong they were). Trust me they are still very strong, just do not rush them. The only thing I'd agree with you on is the trample thing, that was perhaps not necessary. Everything else, especially the prices of beornings and the Hut, is deserved in my opinion.

Concerning your last point,  I haven't played Lorien enough to discuss it.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 26. Nov 2015, 14:58
Hmm yes, in terms of micro, you were outplayed by Legolas a couple of times as well. But again, the only reason why he got to upgrade his knights so quickly was because of all the upgraded Blacksmiths in his castle. Seriously, Golf of Lune is not the most competitive map. The only way to prove this would be to reenact the match, but then switch sides and employ the same strategies. The outcome would probably silence our discussion :P.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 26. Nov 2015, 19:52
Well if we're only going to base balance on "competitive" maps, then wtf is the point in having all these cool extra ones? It should be competitive on ALL maps. Also, remember that replays don't replay the lag, which was fairly annoying in this match. I don't think that he legitimately out-microed me at all, even if I was outplayed on the whole, especially considering I had won 2 matches in a row before this. Its not hard to trample with cavalry effectively. Not to say that I didn't make mistakes, but our micro was more or less on par. Anyways it wouldn't much matter what map we were on, Gondor can still spam blacksmiths and rush upgrades waaaay before Lothlorien can due to the building system, bringing me back to my previous point about the command points being on the Border Guardhouse.

Finally, not to be rude, but I would appreciate if you wouldn't derail the argument with things like who has better micro, because the majority of people who play this mod aren't "pros" and are just playing for fun, which means many people who you play with online are around average skill. Legolas and myself are a couple of exceptions to this rule, along with some others that I know of, like Skeeverboy, Mogat, and Draco10000.

Also Adriggabro, if they truly already had heavy armor in the very first fight, then I didn't see it. I guess it just didn't stand out enough for me to notice it.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Gnomi am 26. Nov 2015, 20:09
It's impossible to balance for all maps, as there are too many things to consider. F.e. if you have a map without any settlements and only about one screen area between the castles and another map with hundreds of settlements and with three times the size of Fords of Isen, there will be many balance differences:
Factions which are faster and are really good at harassing the enemy, but aren't as good in direct fights will probably be much weaker in the first map, but much stronger in the second map - additionally those factions will be stronger when the maps are more open without many small passages. So it's impossible to balance the game for every map. On some maps some factions will be stronger and on others they'll be weaker.
If we change the factions because of the map Golf of Lune and make it balanced for that map, then the balance for all other maps with easier harassment are also changed and probably will be worse.
That's something we can't change and will always be this way. So we're having a couple of maps which are made for competitive play and try to balance for those maps.
You're playing on a map which is balanced for both players, but not for all factions. Those maps are in the game, because there are also a lot of players who like to play against the AI or, even if playing against humen, don't want a completely competitive play as they don't like the more intensive and faster playstyle. So we have also maps for those players which will give those players a possibility to have their games where they can fight without being stressed all the time. :) But of course the balance will be worse on those maps - but as they're not using every unit to its most use, they're already playing with deformed balance.

So, if you really want to play as competitive as possible, play on some other maps. Currently I'ld recommend for such plays:
Arnor:Forochel
Arnor: Mitheithel spring
Arnor: Mountains of Angmar
Brandywine
Carnenquelle
Dunland
Fords of Isen II
Forelands of Emyn Muil
Iron Hills
Morgai

(note: I haven't played some of the other maps yet, especially the Bfme I maps. I think some of them could also be really good)

Probably you can also play some more 1vs1 maps competitively, but those are the maps I'ld name if someone asks me - I love to play some of the other maps too, but I play those more against the AI or if I don't want a 100% competitive play, but something different and interesting. For example Dor-en-Ernil is a really intersting map, which has other things to think about. I wouldn't play this map in a tournament, but I think it's really interesting to play on it. :)
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 26. Nov 2015, 21:04
Wow mates, take it easy haha. It wasn't my intention to have it derail like that. I am just saying that in a competitive environment any factors that can affect gameplay have to be considered. Macro, Micro, the map, lag etc. It was just an observation.

I am also just saying that Golf of Lune is an okay map, but there are more favoured and competitive maps out there, like some examples given by Gnomi. Either way, the smaller the map is in reasonable terms, the more chance it has to contend for a competitive map. It does not have to be the case of course, but it is more likely. In short, it contributed to your loss, but wasn't the overall deciding factor. That is all. It was just a statement.

Anyway, as you said yourself, you were experimenting with a strategy, and in the end, it didn't work out. A shift in tactics might be required. If Gondor spams blacksmiths, I suppose it would be fair to say that there must be a way to hamper them from doing so. In other words, harass the enemy base with light siege to break a gate if required. Personally, not to be rude myself, but player skill is always important and should always be incorporated into how the balance of a match plays out. Mistakes I believe I had already pointed out, like going for silverthorns over master blades first or using the eagles to focus fire on the catapults, which are currently known to be very ineffective against them. The biggest boon of cavalry is their mobility, so once you take that away, by using the mystic stream on them for instance and following it up with master bladed pikes might have swung some of the engagements into your favour and evened the match a little.

Either way, thank you for the input, both of you.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 27. Nov 2015, 04:16
Didn't mean to come off as rude at any point, sorry if I did. Anyways I did use mystical stream combined with pikes a couple times, even with master blades at one point I think, but it wasn't enough. Lorien are still overall very vulnerable vs cavalry spam, regardless of player skill or map. Even the palace guards aren't that great, they are just a bit tankier than Lorien pikes. This is the main point I was bringing up, along with the point that I think Beornings should be immune to trample, and the command points upgrade should be on the citadel, NOT the guardhouse. The guardhouse should get a different unique upgrade, for example something like each of the 4 upgrades gives a slight boost in exp earned in combat, that's 1 idea anyways. The point is as long as the command points upgrade is on the guardhouse it forces the player to use it, and therefore prevents them from getting the discounts provided by the other 3 buildings.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 27. Nov 2015, 05:16
I watched the match again this afternoon, and most of the times, the mystical stream was used a bit too early, lacking follow-up momentum, which in turn leads to the wasting of some crucial seconds. You started using it more efficiently towards the end, but by then it was not proving to be enough anymore.

Anyway, we'll see eventually what the team will do about it. I was thinking, if it was possible to add some additional formation or ability to the pikemen and/or Palace Guards that gives them a bit of a boost against cavalry or at least when being charged down. I see not that much that can be done here, since, without deforming Lothlorien's basic concept, the only way would be to buff the natural counter to cavalry, but that is a risky business, as we know.
Or something like a passive curved blades ability that makes their pikemen decrease armour or speed from cavalry or something. Any thoughts on that?

About the CP, what if it was slightly increased? I mean, it would normally still be the thing to upgrade your Mallorn Trees with CP, so I think this might be a bit too soon to judge on this feature as well. I don't completely agree with the CP being at the Citadel, even though it might make sense. I think the whole idea was to give you an advantage for it being much better protected, but that it would not completely make CP upgrades on Mallorn Trees pointless. You could have deleted your Beorning house, then build a Mallorn Tree and go for the double CP upgrade. However, I also somewhat agree that profiting from the other discounts is kind of a problem for Lothlorien, but not because of the Border Guard thing, but because they have so few build plots, in my opinion.

Oh well, I suppose it is in the past, so I suggest we should be done with it. I hope that a dev can shed some light on this so that we can call it a day haha.

Kind regards.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 27. Nov 2015, 05:54
The number of build plots they have isn't an issue. As for making cp upgrades on mallorn trees, they are your only source of real income, as the amount you make from your base is quite small (as you noted, lack of build plots ;)) Putting double resources on your mallorn trees is the only real way to stay competitive right now. So something needs to change, be it either the amount of money you can make from your citadel buildings, the amount of command points granted by each upgrade on the border guardhouse, or by putting the command points upgrade on the citadel and giving the border guardhouse a different unique upgrade, which I think makes the most sense.

I don't think that it would be unreasonable or unfitting to Loriens concept to give the pikeguards some kind of basic formation, at least then they would be somewhat useful against pikes. Currently, If your in the situation I was in, where you are being spammed with cavalry and are unable to get the Palace Guard, you're basically, pardon my French, fucked. This really isn't fair, even with the argument that my micro was apparently so horrible, and I should have gotten master blades first. I'm telling ya, it would not have made a huge difference, I can tell. If you want to find out for sure, find me on gameranger, my name is E_KryPtik on there.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: ™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™ am 27. Nov 2015, 09:32
 This is completely off topic, but I believe Mirkwood's outpost should cost 1600 (not 1200)                         In any multiplayer game, elves always instantly get Mirkwood. And from what i've seen, mirkwood is more valuable than the normal outpost option. (which costs the same)
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 27. Nov 2015, 14:38
@Kryptik

No mate, I didn't say that. Please, don't twist my words, you're making me look bad :P. I was just saying that in certain occasions in the match, your opponent outsmarted you. Like going for that Dol Amroth Fortress and losing the remainder of your soldiers was also a waste.

I will need to install Gameranger then, if I take you up on your offer haha.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 27. Nov 2015, 18:52
I think you are taking the problem in the wrong way. You want the command points to come with all the buildings in the Citadel because, quote, "Putting double resources on your mallorn trees is the only real way to stay competitive right now" and having then to build a couple Border Guardhouses makes you unable to get discounts.

Well, the easiest and best solution, in my opinion, is simply to increase the amount of resourcs earned in the Citadel so that you can upgrade mallorn trees with command points.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 27. Nov 2015, 19:40
Could you please explain to me, Odysseus, where I twisted your words?

Adriggabro, putting double resources on Mallorn Trees IS the only real way to stay competitive right now, but that is not the main reason that I want this change, every other faction puts double resources on outer farms as well. The main reason I want this change is so that the player isn't forced to get the Border Guardhouse. Your idea could work, although I think it may be a bit unimaginative(no offense, just my opinion), and it also still forces the player to use Mallorn Trees for command points. If the command points upgrade was on the citadel, costing a bit more than the current ones in the border guardhouses, like 600 per upgrade and giving more command points, maybe like 250 per upgrade, then it would be very much more balanced I believe.

Now if this change were implemented, we would need a new upgrade for the Border Guardhouse as well, so that it would stay competitive with the other buildings to make players want to get it. With this method the player could get 1000 command points from his citadel, which is still less on the whole than other factions can get inside their castle, and could then mix and match Mallorn Trees to get resources and pantry. Finally it would solve the main issue of being forced to get border guardhouses, and allow the player to get different discounts from different buildings.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 27. Nov 2015, 21:43
Zitat
This really isn't fair, even with the argument that my micro was apparently so horrible, and I should have gotten master blades first.
I didn't say it was horrible. I never would, since I don't know you and you probably don't know me haha. Anyway, I'm not sure what tweaks would be in order really. I doubt the CP thing will solve the cavalry issue. Buffing the resources also seems to be somewhat more logical to me, but that's just me.

I did some checking and perhaps there would be a way to obtain a level 2 forge faster. For instance, reduce the cost of the 2000 upgrade that levels all your structures to level 3 to 1500. That way, there would be quicker access to Master Blades. Another thing could be to split that upgrade into a 750-1000 cost to instantly upgrade your structures to level 2 and then a seperate one for level 3 at the the same cost or slightly more.

Finally, what would you suggest then instead of the CP? If you could place some more effort into your alternative, you might just sway my opinion :P.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 28. Nov 2015, 00:12
I was just being sarcastic, I know you never said my micro was horrible, was meant to be funny. Also I already suggested an alternative upgrade for the Border Guardhouse, if you look back through my posts, which I believe was a boost in experience gained from combat.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Lord of Mordor am 28. Nov 2015, 13:20
Lorien's castle income isn't actually that low. Yes, you have only five build plots, but all your buildings generate resources. Dwarves and Rohan have seven plots, but if we assume that they build one barracks and one forge, they don't have more space for resource buildings than Lorien has. With smaller camps it's four for Lorien and six for everyone else, but again the other factions can't spend all their plots on resource buildings.

A Lorien castle at rank three with one fully upgraded Borderguard house produces 200 resources and grants 630 command points. A Dwarven castle with five mines, three of them upgraded for resource production and two for command points, produces 192 resources and grants 870 command points. In terms of resources Lorien is actually very slightly ahead, but I agree it's a discrepancy in command points. However, I don't see a fundamental issue with the border guard house granting command points. It's your basic barracks and you should have at least one anyway, and it's more vulnerable to attack than the Citadel - same as the command point structures for all other factions, which can also be destroyed. So I think the simplest step would be to just increase the command points for each border guard house by 50% (from 480 altogether to 720). That way, you get a more solid CP foundation from one guardhouse and can then choose whether you want a second in your base or upgrade one or two mallorn trees. In terms of overall production, you won't lag behind other factions in either case because they lower their production with each resource structure they dedicate to command points.

The pikeman issue might hint at a more fundamental problem though. Lorien's pikemen are not actually weaker than, say, Dwarven pikes, and Dwarves don't even have elite pikes like the palace Guard. Do other factions struggle to counter cavalry with their pikes as well? (leaving aside Gondor, who have the best pikes in the game) If not, what do you think is the difference between them and Lorien when the Lorien pikes themselves are roughly the same strength? It's important to discern whether this is a Lorien issue or a more general problem.

One thing that needs to be kept in mind though: You are in fact expected to keep your pikemen strength up with your enemy's cavalry power. If he comes at you with heavily armored elite knights or even Knights of Dol Amroth, then basic Lorien pikes might well not be enough. If they were, what would the incentive be to ever build elite pikemen or upgrade them? Lorien's master blades especially are twice as powerful as other faction's forged blades and grant a huge boost in damage, while the Palace Guard can use their formation to stop cavalry more efficiently. You should need to make use of these to stop the strongest cavalry armies. Of course if you do use them and cavalry still wins, we have a problem.

Beornings really shouldn't be Lorien's counter to cavalry by the way, simply because they shouldn't counter everything. They're already good against structures, heroes, swordsmen, pikemen (in human form) and even archers if they get to them.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 28. Nov 2015, 16:39
Yes, an answer from a dev xD.

Thanks Lord of Mordor, for the answer. I completely agree with what you have to say. I noticed I hadn't written that down, about simply increasing the CP of the Border Guard house upgrade, even though I intended to and I simply forgot 8-|. Perhaps this is a good first step to try out. The buff could start even smaller if you ask me.

I hope this is not off-topic, but would you be willing to explain how exactly all buildings of the Lothlorien camp level up apart from the systematic growth upgrade? Simply by producing units and research upgrades or is there anything else?
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Lord of Mordor am 28. Nov 2015, 16:57
The structures in Lorien's castle all level over time. This is both blessing and curse: They level up for free while other factions have to pay, but they take longer.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 28. Nov 2015, 22:58
Thanks for the reply LoM :)

I agree with making the Border Guardhouse grant more CP, at least then you would only have to make 1 of them and could get a different discount for late game. As for the production, all I know is that every game I have played, It seems like I get resources slower than the other factions, and all my friends who play with me on gameranger(about 7 or 8 people) agree with this statement. So if the facts dispute that, maybe its something to do with the pricing structure that makes it feel so slow compared to other factions. Anyways, I never had an issue with the pricing, all other factions make double resources on outer farms and CP on inner farms too, that's the most efficient way to do it.

In regards to the pikes, I think the fundamental problem is the lack of armor. Sure, they deal lots of damage with upgraded blades, but they still take HUGE damage on the initial trample, especially if the cavalry has forged blades and heavy armor/shields. It also doesn't help that lorien pikeguards are kind of squishy to begin with. In terms of the Palace Guard, I have never had any trouble defeating them with cavalry when playing against Lothlorien, although I personally have not gotten a chance to use them yet. I am sure that they are much better than the pikeguard, but the point that I was trying to make is that if you DON'T have an outpost, or are unable to get one fast enough, all your enemy has to do is spam cavalry and they win. This is a similar problem that Rohan currently faces late game, but opposite, against Gondor and Isengard and Dwarves, all they need is upgraded pikes to completely ruin your late game cavalry. That is what I don't like, when something becomes as simple as "Do X to win" and that is what I've always gotten in the biggest discussions about regarding balance. :)
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Lord of Mordor am 28. Nov 2015, 23:28
To be honest, I'm a bit at a loss for why normal Dwarven pikemen with upgrades should be able to counter every cavalry army while the Mirkwood Palace Guard is easily defeated. Heavy armor really shouldn't be the deciding factor here - even Knights of Dol Amroth deal less than 100 damage to pikemen when they trample them. Even the basic Lorien pikes have 415 health and should be able to survive several charges, giving back more than 300 damage each time. With master blades, one Lorien pikeman deals over 900 damage when he's trampled, about half the health of a Knight of Dol Amroth. So if five knights charge into ten Lorien pikemen, it should be devastating for them.

I'm just not quite sure what we should change here because judging by their values they already are very good against cavalry - and not actually weaker than Dwarven pikemen, the only difference being that they can't get heavy armor and get better forged blades instead. But that should actually be a bonus because Pikemen have very good resistance against trampling damage in general and giving more damage back when being trampled is more valuable against cavalry.

(on the flipside, don't Rohan horse archers and the Royal Guard with their new ability work against Pikemen?)

For the border guard house, we'll test out the increased CP and see how it goes :) As for Lorien's production, it might be helpful if people took a look at their statistics after each game with Lorien, where you can see your total income AND the highest income per minute you had during the game. It would be very helpful to know if these values are consistently lower than other factions, and by how much.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 29. Nov 2015, 00:31
I doubt that statistics lie. Perhaps the increased CP upgrade will make it so that Kryptik can get enough Pikemen with Master Blades to counter Cavalry Spam :P. Forgive my banter, but I just had to.

Ps. Rohan is fine :P
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 29. Nov 2015, 01:59
Rohan is much better, and I know how to play them late game, but I didn't want to get into a huge discussion about it because this is the Lothlorien thread :)
Their biggest issue right now is that the cavalry archers don't do very much damage to a bunch of tower guards in formation or Isengard armies with full upgrades, so on the whole they are still very weak late game. Enough about Rohan though.

As for the pikes, I will continue playing and reporting my thoughts about it, sometimes stats alone in code aren't enough to determine balance. I'm happy to hear you'll increase the CP upgrade though, is it going to be more expensive as well? I think it should be a little more expensive if its giving more command points.

As for why the dwarven pikes are so good, the answer is simple: better health values and better leadership. Late game Dwarven pikes are monstrous, especially if your playing iron hills with Dains abilities. There are other contributing factors as well, for example the debuff of the ravens.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: CragLord am 29. Nov 2015, 16:47
Guys, arrows from citadel or level 3 buildings are able to melt Ents health bar in matter of seconds. I really don't find this as regular situation, I am not speaking in balance terms only.
First same arrows almost do no damage to other siege units. Second, is normal in lore term that bunch of arrows bring down Ent or better question to do any damage to it? Those were no fire arrows, standard regular arrows...
So is possible to change this somehow in future?   

Regards,
Crag
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 29. Nov 2015, 21:23
I disagree Crag, I used the ent summon of Rohan on a brutal Gondor camp the other day, that also had a bunch of tower guards and other enemies in it, and I was still able to bring down the entire camp except 2 buildings. I have no problem with the current health and armor setup of the ents, especially for elves who can rebuild them.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: CragLord am 29. Nov 2015, 21:48
I really don't have problem to throw rocks with ents from distance, if you have done that. I haven't checked Rohan ultimate power, I am speaking about units from Lothlorien regular production.
I played as Lothlorien against Mordor AI, and AI upgraded recourse buildings to level 3.
I tried to use ent on "Melee attack mode" to deal damage on citadel. Ent's health bar was melted down in mater of seconds. It was melting like snow under  "warm water" ...  xD
And I find this not regular from logical reasons a bit. Regular arrows shouldn't damage Ent at all. Simply lets take a look in that way also. As I have said, those arrows deal small damage to other siege weapons, so this is very strange...
I don't know are units from standard production of same attributes as those from Rohan ultimate power, but if you can, check that.

P.S. I am speaking of structure arrow damage (recourse buildings, citadel, and I presume same is with standard arrows from defensive towers), not arrows from units etc

Regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 29. Nov 2015, 21:55
I know what you are talking about, I got it the first time, and I still disagree. The Rohan summoned ents have the same statistics as trainable Lothlorien ents, and I was still able to bring down a Gondor camp, using melee mode. Furthermore, in the same game I was up against a brutal Lothlorien as well, who hit me with lots of Ents, coming into my Rohan camp with all the towers built, and it took quite a few arrows to bring them down. If you have more than 2 ents if the enemies base they will bring it down no problem. Try sending 5 ents led by Treebeard and Quickbeam, good luck bringing them down with arrows. They are fine as is.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: CragLord am 29. Nov 2015, 22:41
As I have described you, it was experimental thing with one ent.
I presume ofc if I come with 5 ents with or without ent heroes that citadel will probably go down, and bigger part of base.
But that is not my point, my point is that arrow damage from structures is still too great on ents (if it is reduced anyway from previous version of game)
I will also check will those arrows deal "same" amount of damage to rams or catapults and then I will wrote some more detail comment with general comparison.

Regards,
Crag
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 29. Nov 2015, 22:47
Five ents led by Treebeard and Quickbeam? If you can afford that, you can win by just drowning your opponent in your money. The problem is not that ents can't get stuff done, but that ents are too vulnerable to arrows from buildings. And I share that sentiment, ents are supposed to be vulnerable to pikes and elemental damage, not buildings.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: CragLord am 29. Nov 2015, 22:58
With no more "quoting" and talking, that is my point also from beginning.
And in same time, rams can go into race around buildings and arrows do ~0 damage to them. And probably same is with catapults. Have to check. Simply ents are siege, not regular one as other "mechanic" but that is not reason that those arrows deal such amount of damage to them while other non living siege is almost immune to it.

Regards,
Crag
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 29. Nov 2015, 23:00
Ents are not "just siege" they can also slaughter units by the dozen, whereas rams can only hit buildings. Therefore, like trolls, they should be a bit more vulnerable to all forms of damage. Anyways, whats the point in sending in a single Ent? You send them in groups to keep them protected.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Lord of Mordor am 29. Nov 2015, 23:02
Ents never have to take damage from buildings if you don't want them to though, they can throw their rocks farther than any tower can shoot. So is turret damage a problem? It's easy to increase their armor, but I don't think it's a bad thing per se that you have to approach a heavily defended base differently. But I don't really mind either way, I can also see the point that siege-focussed monsters shouldn't get downed too easily by turrets. Ents actually have better armor against turrets already than most other units or monsters, but not as good as mechanical siege engines like rams or catapults.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 29. Nov 2015, 23:06
Well, I think we are nearly there. They might just need a little bit more of an armour buff against regular or at the least defensive structure arrows. Although, arrows from defensive resource structures are much stronger than regular arrows of course, so perhaps it is somewhat fair. Ents are really powerful nonetheless. They can kick back, unlike other siege and they even have a way to fight from a safe distance when it comes to those arrow towers or defensive arrow upgrades. Being able to switch between those two modes is very versatile, and versatility is worth double. I doubt you'll really have the time to use the melee attack in competitive gameplay anyway, since there is much less risk attacking from range with Ents and they are the definition of slow, apart from Quickbeam.
Edit: Ack, I was beaten to it! :P
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: CragLord am 30. Nov 2015, 00:29

I know everything you wrote here, and I still think that damage is simply overpowered.
I sent single ent randomly, because while I play game I am in search of bugs in same time and other issues, I was looking for some graphics animation bugs with ents when I observed ent while he was moving (take a look at bug section xD).
And then I sent him in middle of base and noticed that.

Guys, I understand everything you wrote here, but simply in my mind, living tree shouldn't die under arrow burst no matter what you wrote here in balance terms about it. :)
Again, I ask you not to mind me wrong, I just wanted to point on something unusual in my opinion. Simply in logic, I don't see this justified that big walking tree is destroyed by buildings which are shooting regular arrows, that is all. But if there is no problem about this in general, I will continue using them from distance as I have done so far. I almost never use them in melee form anyway.
Again, I don't have problem with ent usage in general, I just noticed something "unusual" in my opinion, situation that arrows take down ent...
I look on this in similar way as on Flying units situation.
I have tested again today and noticed that 12 hits are needed to take down catapult (mostly wooden machine) by strong giant bird which should probably be able to take it down by 2 or at most 3 hits (I know this is probably not argument to call on in term of this game or mod, but in movie it seems that situation when nazguls take those Minas Tirith catapults is well constructed). Simply by my thinking that is also situation about we need further to discuss. I simply look on those situation in same way, and I hope you understand me when I say that in right way. Simply I am not experienced as balance tester, but those situation by my logic are not justified by any term. :) I just hope you can understand my view about this.


I know LoM, and I always used them in "Throw rock" mode.
This was just random situation, as I have described in above, and I noticed something  very "unusual" in my opinion. From logic reasons I think this is I would dare to say "without sense". :) There is enough counter of ents in game, and I honesty think that regular arrows should tickle them, not to make pile of wood from them.  [ugly]
Again, I am not experienced in balance or PvP games, just wanted to discuss about this in logical way mostly...

Best regards,
Crag
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 30. Nov 2015, 01:35
Well, I am quite experienced in PvP games, and I can assure you they are strong enough. Any more armor and they'll be frighteningly strong, they are perfect right now as is. Again, if somebody is stupid enough to send a single Ent into your base in a PvP game, it should be killed by your defense, not be able to wreck your entire base by itself. Rams can be killed very easily in melee, this is not true of ents, they aren't even very vulnerable to Heroes anymore.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: CragLord am 30. Nov 2015, 14:24

If this is also statement from experience of other balance or beta testers, I am completely fine with that, but as I saw some of them are not sharing that thought.
I don't wanted to point on ents overpowering in this melee situation Elite, just wanted to point on "logical" situation here. :)
Also it is supposed to have upgraded defensive structures (arrows type on defensive structures, meant towers) in one way, when enemy comes with 2,3 ents (or even that single one xD) in middle of your base. And those upgraded arrows should wreck them not regular ones.
Again, I just pointed on situation with that one ent, and I mainly use them to do job from distance.
As I have said, if the rest of players are fine with this, I am fine also. Just wanted to point on this situation at first place. :)

Best Regards,
Crag
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 1. Dez 2015, 00:30
I wasn't able to understand most of that post Crag :(

Anyways the main reason I am against this is because, to my knowledge, its impossible to increase resistance against a single type of arrow. They would have to increase resistance against all ranged attacks, which is what I am against. If this is really such a problem and the team can in fact increase resistance against specific arrow types from defensive structures, I guess that's fine.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: CragLord am 1. Dez 2015, 01:27
It is ok, Elite,
I make mess with words "sometimes"... xD :)
If situation about range attack and damage in game is like that (that armor increase effects all  type of arrows damage in game), then situation shouldn't be bother with.
But if it is possible to change that only in way as you have described (armor against only range damage of defensive structures or defensive upgrades attack on structures), then it should be changed in my opinion.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Lord of Mordor am 1. Dez 2015, 01:30
Turret arrows actually use their own damage type, so you can easily buff specific units against them without affecting normal arrows. Would you say Ents are fine against normal arrows from rangers and the like?
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 1. Dez 2015, 01:36
For me, yes.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: CragLord am 1. Dez 2015, 01:39
Thanks LoM for quick answer.
As I have tried to point out I just had problem with damage which ent received from regular arrows of defensive towers and citadel and defensive lvl 3 upgrade of recourse structures. I have tried to explain that mainly because I experienced such situation in game and in my opinion it was out of place.
Concerning regular arrow damage of units, I haven't checked that, or tested them so far to be honest. In some real situation regular arrows shouldn't damage them at all, not matter are they from units or structures...
In my thinking, ents should be countered only with upgraded arrows (fire at first place, and other types of upgraded), pikes, axes (of some units ofc) and other siege.
Again, I don't have experience in balance term to claim with 100% that this should work in game or that is the best choice.
For now maybe we should buff their armor against those structure regular arrows and see what it will look like in next patch. This is beta phase, and we should tested I think. After that we can speak more about it?

Regards,
Crag
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 1. Dez 2015, 04:33
I personally don't think that they need a buff, the ents are already quite strong. Every game I have played with them they were either wrecking me or I was wrecking people with them. I really don't care about defensive tower damage either way because if I am sending them in melee mode there's going to be more than 1 of them. As for regular arrows from rangers and others, I haven't had a lot of experience with them, I usually try to upgrade my arrows as soon as possible. 1 thing I think could use a buff against them is steel bolts of Isengard, I think Isengard is currently the weakest at killing Ents. All upgraded arrows should deal similar damage to Ents in my view, just to make it fair.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 1. Dez 2015, 08:45
Another thing that should be mentioned, that I frequently mentioned while this was in beta: If Galadriel rejects the Ring, it becomes impossible for the enemy to reclaim it. This is really unfair, that Lothlorien can literally make the Ring disappear. If the Ring is rejected, Frodo should be summoned along with Sam immediately near Galadriel, and be able to drop the Ring if he is killed.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 2. Dez 2015, 05:10
So, I just had a long, epic 2v2 with Lothlorien, I'll post the replay in the replays section. There are many big issues that have come to bear, it seems that Lothlorien really are one of the weakest factions in late game. I'll list my points below.

Firstly, Lothlorien are not only weak against cavalry of Gondor, but also tower guard spam. Over and over again, he would hit me with massive tower guard armies that just, wouldn't, freaking, die. Even with a bunch of galadhrim with silverthorns, and caras galadhon guardians, I just wasn't dealing enough damage, and the conflict would destroy both of out armies. I highly recommend increasing the damage of silverthorn arrows, they seem rather weak right now. After all, Lorien is supposed to be the highest damage archer faction, to make up for their lack of heavy armor.

Secondly, Elves really have no good counter against siege positioned behind an enemy army. He sniped me with these all game, killing my heroes and huge clumps of my army, and I could not really do much of anything about it. For those of you who say that ents could counter, he had fire stones. 1 shot and the ent would be lit up and run off and die. I suppose Beornings could be used to counter, but I was not getting them because they cannot effectively counter tower guards, and additionally the other opponent was Rohan, who could just trample them to death with no problem. Another point in regards to Ents is that they cost too many command points, I can't see them being worth more than 45 in relation to their resource cost. How many command points do trolls cost? They should be identical.

Thirdly, Galadriel takes WAY too long to level up, I wasn't able to make use of her level 10 invincibility until the last 10 minutes of the game, at which point we had already basically lost. She is also incredibly vulnerable to siege and arrows, I think that she should perhaps receive a little bit of a buff in resistance to ranged, considering how expensive she is. Also, glance in the mirror is utterly useless, if the negative effect were removed it would be useful.

Fourth, Palace Guards aren't really very great. The damage is nice, but honestly it isn't enough. They cannot survive in prolonged melee against much of anything. I think that the palace guards alone, due to their heavily armored look, should be the only unit able to research heavy armor as a default upgrade, and they should have a formation better than porcupine formation, something that gives some armor.

Fifth, the Elves late game powers aren't that great. The Rain doesn't do much damage to late game upgraded armies, and the boat can be overpowered by other powers, such as army of the dead. I think they should both be buffed, the boat by a small amount, the rain by a fair amount. Also, even with the spell which reduces cooldown times, my spells seemed to be taking a very long time to recharge. Cooldowns should perhaps receive a second look.

Sixth, the elves don't really have any great mass slayer heroes. The only decent mass slayer power is Legolas' Arrow Wind, which he doesn't get until level 10. I'm not really sure how to address this, maybe improve Grimbeorns powers? I also think he's a little too expensive, he's worth maybe at most 2000.

That's the majority of the points I can think of right now, I will post the replay of the game I'm talking about in the replays section for your enjoyment, and I'm sure I will have about 10 million people pointing out mistakes I made in game :P To sum it up, I would call Lorien the 2nd weakest faction in late game with the current balance, behind Rohan. They are especially weak against Gondor, who have the perfect roster to clean them up, either with tower guard spam or cavalry.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 2. Dez 2015, 08:29
So, I just had a long, epic 2v2 with Lothlorien, I'll post the replay in the replays section. There are many big issues that have come to bear, it seems that Lothlorien really are one of the weakest factions in late game. I'll list my points below.

Yeah I'm the one who fought KryPtik in this match, and I want to share my thoughts on this.  Before I start, KryPtik did upload this replay to the forums, so if you want to see the match for yourself, It is there. 

After a certain point in this match, there are only 3 units I am using, which were Tower Guards, Trebuchets, and Boromir.  Yes, there are a few times where I throw Beregond in, and there is one point where I make a Battering Ram.  But those 3 units is what is making up my army everytime.  Almost everytime before I leave my base, I make sure my Tower Guards have Heavy Armour and, if I could afford it, Banner Carriers.  I never bought Forged Blades for any unit.  From what I noticed, The defensivly upgraded Tower Guards, combined with their formation, and the lvl 5 leadership Boromir, caused my army to take very little damage from the Silverthorne Arrows being shoot at them.  While the Tower Guards were fighting, I used the Trebuchets to target enemy heroes, specifically Galadriel, because she is expensive and takes alot of damage from the Trebuchets.  After a while, both of us would go back to get more troops, and it repeated.

Now I understand why the Tower Guards were not taking much Damage.  However, my army, usually much smaller then his army, was able to survive volley after volley after volley of silverthorne arrows.  The damage they were taking was just surprisingly low.  I know thats someone is thinking that "Well because the Tower Guards were in their formation, why didnt the elves just hit and run?"  The reason for that is that if he ran away from my army, he would be leaving his Mirkwood outpost open, and it would not be a good idea to do that because I had Trebuchets.

It is hard for me to say that the damage Silverthrone Arrows do should be increased because this is just one game.  But its definately a possibility.  I also do agree that the Lothlorien mass-slayer, Legolas, was very ineffective in this match.  While I think he is very good, he was barely noticeable against the Tower Guards unless he used Arrow Wind. 

Many of the other points mentioned i have no comment on, due to the fact that I haven't played Lothlorien enough to know everything. 

Nevertheless, the match was fun regardless.  I think that, with my lower control of the map, and therefore lower economy, the Tower Guards I sent did a very good job, but perhaps too good. 
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 2. Dez 2015, 14:33
Alright, I watched the replay (which took quite a while and , to be honest, got a bit boring at some point, but I'll come to that) and I don't really agree with the two of you. It's not really about what mistakes KryptiK made, but more about what you spend your money on.

First of all: Silverthorn. Lorien has the strongest archers in the game, because the silverthorn arrows are the best ranged upgrade in the game. Their damage boost is larger than fire arrows by quite a bit, and additionally they offer the arguably better damage type (MAGIC as opposed to FLAME). But since Edain 4.0 lowered the damage archers do (which I am still very, very glad about), they can't do everything. On top of that, the heavy armor upgrade lowers the received ranged damage by 35%. Combine that with leveled tower guards, their formation and leadership bonuses and archers suddenly can't do much. Which leads to my main point, your money spending.

As both of you said, the Gondor player used nothing but tower guards and catapults (Boromir isn't important for this). He had nothing but upgraded pikes as his army. But you only used archers and your own pikes to fight them, although both of those are not very effective in this scenario.
Why did you never get melee Galadhrim? As swordsmen, the do more damage against pikes and with the latest version of Edain they get a 50%(!) buff on top of that. You never got Beornings because you were afraid of Rohan. Well, that's teamgames for you. Fighting 1v2 isn't the basis to discuss balance though, and just as your enemies supported each other, your ally could have send some of his own tower guards over to protect your Beornings. And you still had your own palace guard. Four or five Beornings would have done wonders for you, they do very nasty things to tower guards.

Next you complained that you were helpless against catapults. Well, you were, because you didn't get any ents. The catapults stood in his base, protected by tower guard and lots of towers ready to shoot the crap out of your infantry. So why didn't you get ents? Because you were afraid of the fire killing the ents instantly.
The thing is, you could have had several ents before Gondor even got his first trebuchet. You got longbows and silverthorn while your army consisted of pikes only, you got three upgrades in the sanctuary, you were spamming heroes nonstop. Just one ent alone would have been enough to force your enemy into an unfavourable situation where he has to leave his base to attack your ent(s), and you can hit him hard. Not to mention that he never gets to build catapults when he can't get to raise the building (what's it called in english?).
Even in the very late game, where he had two or three upgraded trebuchets, ents could have done some work. Keep them back and fire at the tower guards. Either he steps forward with his catapults so you can take them out or he loses the tower guard and you can then kill his catapults with your army. Again, it's about creating a favourable situation for yourself. In the replay you fought quite a few "bad" battles (which is why it got boring, you never changed it up^^), which is something you can't really do with Lorien.

So yea, that's my take on this.  Of course, hindsight is 20/20, and you couldn't have known everything while playing the match. But still, you were waiting in front of his base and couldn't get in since you didn't have any siege weapons. What did you get? MOAR ARCHERS. xD



Some isolated points: Turning Grimbeorn into more of a mass slayer sounds good to me. At the moment he is more of a strong melee fighter, which is a bit meh. Maybe this could be improved a bit (and his bees are still doing no damage, right?).

Regarding spells: The army of the dead overpowers anything and everything, which is why you get the fuck out when you see it xD. Standing still and trying to outheal it will not work. Vingilot would easily overpower the Rohirrim though. I'm still a bit unsure about the Tears, since they can get too strong very quickly when combined with all the stuns Lorien has. I'd have to use the more to judge this.

Galadriel isn't especially weak against catapults, heroes in general are. Three upgraded trebuchets would make any hero run away.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: CragLord am 2. Dez 2015, 16:11
One thing which comes to my mind about this is would Elk ridders do something useful in that situation with their "Elven Skill" passive ability which should pierce heavy armor? They were also more mobile archer unit for this situation.
Maybe one solution for similar situation could be new activation ability for Charas Galathon Guards. As elite (or hero unit, I always get confused between those two terms) units which is limited to 3 battalions, I think they deserve better activation ability then current one.
I mean, it is really "poor" that they got knock back with less damage as special ability, maybe as solution we can propose some ability about heavy armour pierce but in some great amount, because it will be activation ability with effect of attack limited in time duration. I think that could solve current problem in some way.

Also, I haven't got time to watch your replay, but from reading comment of 3 Grades Cousain, I agree that you should play 1v1, so you could be more objective in situation concerning units and countering of enemy units. As he already mentioned, maybe some swordsmen could do decent job, but you wasn't able to produce them because you played against Rohan in same time.

I agree about Grimbeorn, actually, I would like to see him in more mass slayer role, and I agree about current price, 2600 is maybe too much.
Also I am for buffing of damage of Valar's Tears, I have also feeling that damage isn't so great in general (concerning damage), for power which is tier 4 in powers menu. But again, it is just my opinion.

Regards,
Crag
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 2. Dez 2015, 18:47
Again, I do not think that Silverthorne Arrows should be stronger because of 1 match where they were ineffective against Tower Guards.  I do agree that Kry could have made some better choices, namely getting ents before I got Fire Stones for my Trebuchets.  Im also curious on how well the Elk Riders would have done against the Tower Guards.  Ill try to test that out if I get the chance.   

There were some choices that he had to make due to the circumstances, such as he needed to make palace guards to protect his army incase my Rohan ally come with his cavalry army. 

Also, I don't think Beornings would have helped as much as you think.  While I agree that Beornings would do a lot to the Tower Guards, remember that Boromir is part of that army.  And Boromir can knock down Beornings, which would limit their use unless there were a very large amount of them.

I think there needs to be further testing, in a 1v1 situation if possible, before I can say that something needs to be changed.  Ill try to look into it whenever I can. 

Also, I think Tears is good if you have the spell that stuns units (Can't remember its name), but only if you have the stun spell.  It has a long delay before the spell starts doing damage, giving your enemy time to run away, and it has knockback, which is good in theory, but it also means that the units that are knocked back have a chance of dodging the rest of the spell.  With the stun spell however, you are pretty much guarenteed to hit, and it does more damage because the units aren't flying around.  Also, maybe ive been lucky with this, but the stun spell usually end right before the last Tear, knocking them back at the perfect time.  Maybe it does need more damage, but I don't want it to become over powered becuase of the Stun Spell, because as far as I know, there is no way to become immune to the Stun Spell.  I do recommend that Tear's delay at the start should be shortened, because It should not have to rely on another spell to be good.


Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 3. Dez 2015, 00:02
In terms of using melee Galadhrim, if I recall correctly the very first battle I had where I used several battalions of them, I had them on melee mode, and they got slaughtered. They don't have the armor to hold up in prolonged melee. That's why I switched to using Palace Guards to hold the enemy in melee while the Galadhrim dealt damage with their bow.

In terms of the Ents, I agree they could perhaps have been useful. However, the route of getting heroes and Silverthorns is much more dependable in more situations, Ents are very specialized(and expensive). I had no way of knowing he was going to start getting trebuchets, and once they were out it was pointless to get ents in my view. Also, ents don't do all that much damage to upgraded Tower Guards in formation with their rock throw, and its suicide to send them in melee, so they wouldn't have helped all that much with that situation either. The only way they would have been useful would have been if I spammed out like 10 of them, which I did not have the economy to do.

I completely disagree about Beornings, upgraded tower guards wreck them, and Boromir also has his knockback. In regards to the Caras Galadhon Guardians, their activation ability actually doesn't work at all. I think their damage is a little low, but their health and armor are excellent to make up for that, so I'm fine with them as they are, except that their ability needs to be fixed. Also, most heroic battalions have 2 abilities, so maybe they could have a secondary ability unlocked at level 7, which is armor piercing. That would be pretty awesome.

Overall though, are we really not going to discuss how he held off a bigger army, which had many more heroes than his, with a smaller army and less money? Something is simply not right there, which goes back to my opinion that something isn't quite right about Lothlorien's economy. Even with the majority of map control in our teams favor, they were able to hold me back. Now some of this can be attributed to my teammate, who is rather new to the game, but once we got to late game where it was just me vs him, he was still holding me off by himself. When your army is as big as mine was and has that many heroes, I would expect it to at least be able to defeat the enemy army efficiently, even if they cannot destroy the base afterwards.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 3. Dez 2015, 00:12
I finally watched the replays myself and I agree with what Die bucklige Verwandschaft said. I think this was a classic example of tunnel vision, but probably most because of Rohan's cavalry.
 Your opponent was ''spamming'' Tower Guards, which still constitute of the Spearmen class and are still countered by any form of swords. I don't think I saw even a single Mirkwood Swordsmen or Galadhrim with swords in your roster 30-40+ minutes well into the game (and after I stopped watching) after you lost all your Lorien Swordsmen. I'm not really sure what you were trying to accomplish with those frontal assaults with Pikes...Were you trying to ''out-armour'' Gondor with Lothlorien? Because that is what it looked like to me, and that is the kind of game Gondor will almost always win against Lothlorien.
Tower Guards, are defensive units supposed to suck up damage, and that is their main strength. The spam of a specific unit can only endure if the correct counter is not employed. You could also, as has been pointed out before me, had followed the example of your adversary and purchased a couple of Ents and have them fire away at the enemy from behind your lines, just like he did with the Trebuchets.
Frankly, I don't think those Silverthorns were underperforming at all. Yes they are expensive, but they are not supposed to counter Heavy Armour, Wall Formation Tower Guards, but function like the support to make the job of the upgraded swordsmen, that were missing in-game, easier. I think that already a couple of upgraded Mirkwood swordsmen, which were quite cheap with your in-game composition would have done wonders, and Galadhrim with Master Blades perhaps even better :)

However, a couple of times you were unfortunately getting doubled. In such a situation balance is a very difficult thing to assess.

Finally, I agree about Grimbeorn. The issue of the Eagles/Flying Units against siege (or buildings) also still remains. Perhaps some kind of anti-cavalry formation would be worthy of testing for the Palace Guards indeed.

These were just a couple of thoughts I had as an observer, so as always, it's easy to say things in hindsight and in-game it often turns out differently, but I hope they might aid you in improving your game with Lothlorien even further!

Kind regards.

Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 3. Dez 2015, 00:29
I never thought about using Mirkwood Swordsmen, I'll have to try them in the future, that formation of theirs may have helped a lot. I still completely disagree about Ents, test it yourself and see how little damage they do, with rock throw, to Tower Guards with heavy armor in formation. However I still believe my point is valid, I had a much bigger army with more heroes, and he was still beating me back with around 800 command points.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 3. Dez 2015, 02:30
They could perhaps use some tweaking in their ranged damage against infantry. Maybe the Lord of Gifts can elaborate on this with some statistics? :P
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: ™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™ am 3. Dez 2015, 11:24
I think Caras galdhon guardians should have an abillity similar to black uruk archers, where whenever they hit a unit, it does 50% - 75% less damage :P. That could help with the unarmored elves problem.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: CragLord am 3. Dez 2015, 23:58

As you have chance to read those comments again, if you read them again, you will find problem in high armor against arrows, in this particular case Tower guards are with their formation and armor upgrade OP against any range. So problem was in defence, not in attack or damage by those units. So why did you suggest something similar to passive ability of Black Uruks?  They reduce attack (damage which could be done by target units) of targets not their armor. So why you suggesting something this at first place? It is completely vice versa thing.

As I have said, some activation ability (in description similar to piercing shots or piercing heavy armor) which will do bonus damage on heavy armor units. That is in my opinion good and correlated suggestion with problem.
Also as Elite have said, Caras Galadhon Guardians as heroic battalion should have second ability as the most of heroic battalions in game, so there is definitely place for similar bonus damage ability for them.

P.S. Elite, what did you mean with this?
Zitat
In regards to the Caras Galadhon Guardians, their activation ability actually doesn't work at all.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Dez 2015, 00:23
P.S. Elite, how you mean this?
Zitat
In regards to the Caras Galadhon Guardians, their activation ability actually doesn't work at all.


I'm quite sure that it was a bug of the previous patch, but it was consequently reported and fixed, if I remember correctly.

Last time I checked it worked rightly.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: CragLord am 4. Dez 2015, 01:16
I also tested it in game and it worked fine in this last patch, because of that I wanted to ask him, maybe he noticed in latest patch. That was my thought, to check. :)
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 4. Dez 2015, 01:23
So I did some testing to make sure I wasn't just coming up with stuff and it turns out that you are actually right about ents. Their damage against tower guards with heavy armor and Boromir's leadership isn't that great, although Baumbart and Flinkbaum actually did get some results. And they still do aoe knockback, which is always nice to have. And they still would have given you the opportunity to push against his base, which you didn't have without siege weapons.

Melee Galadhrim with forged blades win a 1v1 against tower guard with heavy armor easily. I didn't even use the forest spell or any leaderships, which would make the fight even more one-sided.

Human Beornings eat tower guard for breakfast. They need only two attacks against them, even when they are upgraded and in their formation! I really don't know how you got the impression they sucked against them, especially considering they cost both less cp and resources^^
And even if Boromir is running around somewhere knocking them down - you got both Legolas and Celeborn to take care of him (which you did repeatedly anyway), so don't be afraid of that guy. :P

And he actually didn't beat you back until the very end where your buddy got overrun by Rohan, you were winning pretty much every engagement, even when it was by a close margin. And when you did have the upper hand and were about to wipe his army completely, you got doubled - which of course screwed you over. That's why he was sitting in base the entire time, while you controlled most of the map. You just lacked the siege weapons (I know, I'm repeating myself) to push against the base.


I think Caras galdhon guardians should have an abillity similar to black uruk archers, where whenever they hit a unit, it does 50% - 75% less damage :P. That could help with the unarmored elves problem.
I don't really think this solves anything. CG-Guardians are supposed to be killing stuff, not debuffing it so the rest of your army can kill it. Giving heroic archers a supportive function is the wrong way to go imho.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Dez 2015, 01:57
I also tested it in game and it worked fine in this last patch, because of that I wanted to ask him, maybe he noticed in latest patch. That was my thought, to check. :)


As far as I know, it works fine in the latest patch.

So, it might even be a bug caused by the newest Beta, if it has been downloaded.
Anyway, I will definitely wait for what Elite will directly answer, as I don't want my mind to wander too much throughout pure speculations  :)
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 4. Dez 2015, 02:31
Well, all I can say is that last time that I used Melee Galadhrim and Human Beornings against upgraded Tower Guards, they got slaughtered. I will try to improve my play in future matches to test this better. Also, I didn't realize that Thorn Arrows had been fixed, so that's my bad there.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 4. Dez 2015, 11:05
Well, as I said, in hindsight everything is easy and obvious and talking about it is always easier than actually doing it. Ingame it's a very different story. You still played well, considering you got doubled a lot and your teammate didn't have the strongest performance ;)

This still leaves the issue of gondor knights overperforming (at least) against Lorien, though.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 4. Dez 2015, 12:59
Well, I never really got a great chance to test palace guards against them, as Haman unfortunately went with Tower Guards. I personally am of the mind that both of Loriens Pike units need a passive ability to help them against cavalry. For the basic Lorien Pikeguard, I would recommend a short term damage boost against cavalry, and for Palace Guard a short term armor buff, since the Pikeguards are more offensive styled and the Palace Guards are more defensive styled. That's just my view though. I also still think it would make sense to give just the Palace Guard, no other unit, some form of Elven Armor, because even more so than the Galadhrim they look REALLY heavily armored.

I also still think that overall the Silverthorns are a little weak, Lorien is supposed to be THE Archer faction, but their damage is kind of underwhelming. Maybe a small boost, something like 25% more than current? All of my other points as well about Grimbeorn, the level 10 power points, beorning trample immunity, a second ability for Caras Galadhon Guardians, and the others that I made still stand as well, though they haven't been discussed much.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: IronSkye am 4. Dez 2015, 14:14
I have a small suggestion for you against trebuchets:
You can use upgraded Loriens sword men with their running ability to get to the enemies trebuchet kill it and then run back. This tactic works fine for me.

Like others wrote, if you use sword men you won't have problems against pikes anymore.

I also still think that overall the Silverthorns are a little weak, Lorien is supposed to be THE Archer faction, but their damage is kind of underwhelming. Maybe a small boost, something like 25% more than current? All of my other points as well about Grimbeorn, the level 10 power points, beorning trample immunity, a second ability for Caras Galadhon Guardians, and the others that I made still stand as well, though they haven't been discussed much.

To Silverthorns, yes the damage boost isn't that much like before 4.0, but if they boost it too much, the new counter system won't work anymore (archers shouldn't be good against every unit). They want that you use other units, not only archers.

To Grimbeorn, yes he could use some area damage.

To the Beorings, if they add a trample immunity, they would be to overpowered.
And Beorings have already a trample immunity in their bear form.

A second ability for Caras Galadhorn Guardians is okay, but please no copy of other units (especially -75% damage isn't needed). In German forum they made the suggestion, that they get the ability of the mirkwood archers additionally and that mirkwood archers get an shackle-shoot instead. The mirkwood swordmen should deal less damage and slow the enemy units additionally instead. So that the mirkwood fraction would be more a tanky fraction which purpose is to hold the enemy away from the Lorien troops. If I have time I will translate some more suggestions in English.

br Sky
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 4. Dez 2015, 14:15
The way I see it, most of the elite pikemen of each other faction has something other then the porcupine formation that made them unique  (Tower Guard armour formation, Cirith Ungol orcs being strong vs swordsmen and no cp, Rohan Westfold Pikes having the abilitys of the captain, and Erkenbrands summon Having a spear throw if I remember correctly, I feel like i'm missing one so feel free to tell me if I am)  The 2 factions that can only build 1 pikemen unit and/or have no elite pikemen (dwarves and Isengard) still have something unique that improves them (Uruk pikes can combine with Shield uruks, making them much more versatile, and Dwarves have are unique depending on what subfaction you choose. I can't remember the eredluin ability, but Erebor has the building weakener and Iron hills have the speed up ability.  And if i remember correctly, dale and laketown pikes have the standard porupine formation)  Again, tell me if any of this information is wrong.

I think that palace guards are missing a formation or unique ability that make them compareable to the other elite pikes.  Because while the porcupine formation has its uses, I think the palace guards should get something new.  Preferably something that increases their armor.  I think that may be enough to make them stronger,  without the need of a armour upgrade, but if its not, maybe slightly increasing their base armour values would be smart.

As for the lorien Pikeguard, i think their speed up ability is enough, but if they change the palace guards ability, i think giving them the porcupine formation would be good.

I don't have time to comment on your other points Elite KryPtik, but I will post when I do.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: IronSkye am 4. Dez 2015, 14:29
I think that palace guards are missing a formation or unique ability that make them compareable to the other elite pikes.  Because while the porcupine formation has its uses, I think the palace guards should get something new.  Preferably something that increases their armor.  I think that may be enough to make them stronger,  without the need of a armour upgrade, but if its not, maybe slightly increasing their base armour values would be smart.

They have a good formation which prohibits that enemies cavalry can pass entirely.
This power is quite strong if I am not mistaken.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 4. Dez 2015, 15:23
You mean the Porcupine Tree formation? What exactly does it do anyway? I thought it would only protect pikemen and deal revenge trample damage in a 360 degree radius? I don't think it adds anything else to the Palace Guards, unless I am mistaken.

I had a thought for that formation, inspired by the one we saw in BOTFA. I might make a suggestion thread if anyone is interested?
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 4. Dez 2015, 15:30
It stops any cavalry dead in their tracks when they touch it. They get slowed down instantly, as if they were getting stuck in a clump of infantry.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 4. Dez 2015, 16:45
Concerning CG-guardians:
Zitat
In German forum they made the suggestion, that they get the ability of the mirkwood archers additionally and that mirkwood archers get an shackle-shoot instead.
That isn't exactly true. We were talking about giving this rapid fire ability to the Galadhrim in an attempt to rework certain Lothlorien units. Actually it was completely the opposite way arround, CG-guardians were supposed to shoot really slow, but deal very high damage, making them strong versus heroes, monsters or single-units in general, but rather weak against spam. (It was a pretty long concept, so I won't translate it here. Basically it was about giving every Lothlorien unit a specific place, without redundancies and without some units replacing others. It wasn't totally accepted though. ;))
Apart from that: Do the CG-guardians really need another combat ability? I'm asking this, because they essentially have the same role as regular Lothlorien-archers, don't enter the game earlier or later than fully upgraded archers, do not cost any more money than fully upgraded archers and all three together actually take up 360 CP which is a lot for a single unit. Therefore I think that too strong / too flexible CG-guardians would make Lothlorien-archers kind of redundant in LG. (Just the result of 5 different archer units in one faction. :D)
E.g. in the German forum we were taling about giving them permanent stealth (even while firing and away from trees). This together with high single target damage would make them an excellet sniper-unit.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 4. Dez 2015, 17:57
I am not saying that the porcupine formation is a bad formation.  In the right hands, it works very well.  I am saying that there are better options for the Palace Guards.  And for the people who like the porcupine formation, it can be moved to the Lorien Pikeguard.  Every other elite pikeman unit in the game so far has something other then the porcupine formation and/or something that makes them unique then a normal pike unit. palace guards are the only elite pikes that don't, besides the out of combat heal at lvl 2, but all elves have that.

Because Palace Guards are not able to get heavy armour, a formation that give them armour would be very helpful to them.  I do not think the unit is bad now, it seems like they are missing something to make them versatile like other elite pike units.



As for CG-Guardians, I actually like the concept of them as "Single Target Killers".  It sounds interesting.  At their current state, I don't mind CG-Guardians, maybe a new ability would help, but they are not in a place where a change is completely needed In my opinion.

As I stated a few posts ago, Tears of the Valar is not very useful without the stun spellbook power (which i still don't know the name of, sorry about that :P :P :P), so lowering the delay in the beggining would make it more useful.  It could be stronger too, but not too strong so it can kill an entire endgame army if the stun spell is used as well, because as far as i know, there is no way to escape the stun spell until it is over.  The other 10 point spell is good enough in my opinion.

I personally think beorning should not have trample immunity, but there seems to be alot of people who think they should have it.  I do think however, beornings should get a skill from leveling up.  Maybe something that makes you immune to trample, among other effects, would be cool.  I'd have to think about it though.  I also think the Bear form melee damage isn't high enough, but Idk yet if that should be changed.






Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: CragLord am 4. Dez 2015, 20:20

I didn't understand you. But as heroic unit they deserve new ability maybe? And how can 3 battalions to make redudant standard range unit? They are only three in count, and in late game it is supposed that stronger units are on battlefield, so I really don't understand your statement about heroic unit makes redundant standard unit in late game.
Also giving them stealth as permanent stuff is maybe out of place?
It is supposed that they have something to hide in, in those "consistency" terms trees. :)
Isn't better to give them some activation ability for dealing with those heavy armored units? We got similar situation there, and CG guardians no matter of their high base damage didn't do so much against heavy armor/formation towerguards. So maybe as they are considered as toughest range heroic unit, they should have ability to deal in their favor in those situations?
 
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: ™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™ am 5. Dez 2015, 05:50
I got an idea for Mirkwood Palace Guards :P                                                                            How about a formation which requires they have forged blades purchased?                            For this formation it would be: +100% armor, -75% damage.(75% instead of 50% as their forged blades are 3x the damage)                                                                              It is basically trading forged blades for heavy armor.                               
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 5. Dez 2015, 12:25
I'm a little late in the discussion but here's my opinion, better late than never!

As a whole, I think Lorien has a good late game and is not overwhelmed by other factions: silverthorn arrows do enough damage, Ealendril's ship is an awesome 10 PP spell (perhaps Tears of the Valars could use some buff, dunno), Beornings are in a great spot right now and Galadhrims would have wrecked Tower Guards etc... for the same reasons it has already been discussed.

However I do agree with  you on some points:
~> I don't see why CG guardians don't have a second ability as almost every other hero battalion. They can be killed very easily for they are archers and that's why they should have some great ability at high levels to make up for.
~> Siege weapons are in a too good spot right now: even though I appreciate the last change to make them able to do decent damage to units, it was a little bit too big. Also, there is still that invulnerability to flying units...
~> Palace Guards could use some personal stance and be able to wear heavy armor. I would even say Mirkwood swordsmen and archers should also wear heavy armor, but I understand not everybody agrees on that.
~> Grimbeorn could use some area of effect and/or a price reduction.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Lord of Mordor am 5. Dez 2015, 20:31
Lots of good discussion here, so I'll just jump right in :)

The counter for siege units could either be your own archers with silverthorns and longbows (Lorien archers with longbows or Caras Galadhon guardians have range similiar to that of most siege units), or Beornings or Lorien swordsmen with their speed ability. I agree it is more difficult to counter them without straight-up cavalry, but I wouldn't say it's impossible. Some have already said that catapults in general have too much health at the moment, maybe we could lower it a bit?


Catapults are meant to be effective against armies that are clumped tightly together, but they shouldn't be "sniping" single units and heroes. That is something we will adjust. One thing I'm unsure about is how good catapults should be against monsters and other catapults. The thing is that catapults are the only way a fortress might be able to defend itself against other catapults (and thus force the attacker to bring more that one single catapult or Ent to bring down a fully upgraded fortress because you need superior firepower). On the other hand, one could argue that a fortress shouldn't in fact have defenses against siege weapons. What do you guys think?

Ents are actually way better than trolls in every way except speed (more health, more damage, can be used as a catapult), so they should cost more CP. However, we could increase the flame damage they need to take before they start burning.


The Palace Guards are not meant to work the same way the Tower Guard does. Tower Guards are very much a special case, they're the ultimate unit for holding a defensive line: Good against cavalry and thanks to their shield wall they can take a lot of damage from other unit types as well. They are designed this way because Gondor is supposed to be one of the best factions at holding heavily defended lines. Lorien by design is not supposed to be able to do that as well as Gondor. That is why the Palace Guard is more specialized against cavalry. Note that they are actually significantly better at stopping cavalry than the Tower Guard: Their porcupine stops cavalry short immediately and their forged blades grant them twice the damage of Gondor's.  As such an archer-focussed faction, I think Lorien is actually better served with a pike unit that is fully focussed on killing cavalry than an allrounder like the Tower Guard. And from what I've seen in that replay the Palace Guard did their job quite well: Whenever the Rohan player had his riders charge into your pikemen, they just got murdered.

So even if we replace the Porcupine formation, it would be with a specialized anti-cavalry ability, not a massive armor boost like the Tower Guard have. However, this would mean that Lorien would no longer have access to the Porcupine. The normal pikemen won't get it because we don't want to overload regular units with more than one active ability (their speed boost already requires more attention than many other abilities to be used well). I felt the Porcupine with its ability to stop even large groups of cavalry was something that Lorien really needed. If you think it could easily be removed from the faction, we could of course give the Palace Guard something else.

As for how Lorien should deal with heavily armored Tower Guards, it has already been mentioned that melee Galadhrim with forged blades (who have massively increased damage against other infantry) and human Beornings (who ignore heavy armor) are your best choices. If these turn out to NOT be effective against Tower Guards, we will have to adjust that.


The Star of Hope is actually a very strong power in my opinion. It's just the the Army of the Dead is likely the single best spell in the game, most don't compare that well to it (which I'm aware is a problem, but the Army is difficult to nerf while still keeping their feeling from the movie - but note that they take a while to appear and don't stay for long, so you can reduce your losses by running away). The rain might need a buff (as might the arrow volley), I'll look into that.


The thing about mass killer heroes is that they're usually not meant to be good against upgraded Tower Guards, but rather hordes of weak units like Orcs. Here, Galadriel excels and Legolas does quite well too (note that while he doesn't appear to have any AoE powers until the arrow rain, he attacks extremely quickly and thus can kill many weak units in a short time). But I agree that Lorien could use a hero that is specifically oriented towards killing groups of units, and many of Legolas' powers don't help very much with that. Maybe we could increase the AoE of his knife attacks and replace the archer training ability with something that's better suited against enemy units?


The Caras Galadhon Guards could use some more special powers, I agree with that and I'm currently brainstorming a few, so hopefully they'll pack some more punch in the next version :) The idea is that they will be your go-to archers against less numerous, but heavily armored targets.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: CragLord am 6. Dez 2015, 00:57

It is nice to see that you have summed all of our efforts in one detailed answer. :)

Concerning catapult's hp, I personally don't have some complain to say, thing which irritates me is concerning flying units and catapult interaction. So in that term I am praying you will adjust damage from flying units on siege or low hp of catapult concerning that singular situation, but that is maybe not objective though in general case. Also I don't know what is situation with sniping, if any kind of heavy hero damage dealing by catapults exists, this should be changed as you have described. No "sniping", destroying of formations and units of clumped tightly army in first place.
Concerning siege vs siege, I have tested 2 Ent heroes and one standard ent on defensive stance destroyed Mordor catapult from one way of projectiles, that is basically 3 hits from ents on defensive stance. I am ok with that, probably 2 are needed on agressive stance. Concerning Citadel catapult vs ground catapult, I haven't so much exp to share some thought about that situation.

That is nice to hear about Ent flame damage, what will happened with regular arrows damage on them? Currently big "consistency" problem in game. What happens also about siege (flame) damage on ents? I haven't check current situation, but how many flaming bolders is needed to hit Ent before it start burning?

About Palace Guards their role, gameplay usage, formations I haven't any great experience to share or though, so I will skip that. :)

Star of Hope, nothing to add.
I am also for increase of damage of "Valar Tears", so I am really glad to hear that. I know that power's main usage is for mass slaying, but it damage on stronger units is very poor (trolls, drakes and stronger battalions).

Concerning mass slaying problem, maybe Grimbeorn can jump in beside that knife ability buff on Legolas. I know it is not unique anymore, but some stance for aoe similar to Tharnduil could do very good job. Agressive stance with his axe, so he gets some good aoe?

IF CG guardians get some special ability for dealing with those heavy armored units, that will be great. After all as mightiest range heroic unit, they simply deserve something like that from consistency terms, and earilier situation with Elite show us that this ability is really needed in game. Also current one (lesser damage and knock back) is pretty useless on more numerous battalions of enemies. Personally I think , if that knock back ability have effect on heroic units for example, that it could stay, but with adding of new one about dealing with heavy armored units etc. Otherwise, it should be removed, so basically to rebuild ability palantir for this unit.

I tried to give some feedback. xD

Best regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 6. Dez 2015, 04:30
 Great to see some feedback from the Lord of Gifts  :)

I'm glad that catapults will be looked at.  They are too powerful at singling out a hero.  But I don't want them to sometimes miss their targets as a fix to this problem.  What if they knocked the people hit farther back, so that other catapults will miss?  Just a suggestion.
As for their health, I don't know if it needs a change.  But I support making Eagle (and Fellbeasts to a lesser extent) stronger against siege weapons.  Maybe not to the point of 1 hit killing them, but right now eagles barely anything to these siege weapons.  Fellbeast can be slightly weaker then eagles at destroying siege weapons, because fell beasts don't have a timer on them.

Concerning Palace Guards, I can see why you want to make Palace Guards Specialized at taking down Cavalry, instead of the All Arounder like the Tower Guards.  But i think the problem is that, while Palace Guards are better at killing Cavalry then Tower Guards, it is still a very bad idea to charge into Tower Guards with Cavalry.  No matter which of the 2 units you are attacking with Cavalry, U most likely wont make it out without losing alot of units, which kinda makes Palace Guards being better at killing cavalry then Tower Guards not very useful.

Of course I would like to see your ideas on another Anti-Cavalry Formation, but I still think Palace Guards are missing something that other Elite Pike Units have.  The other elite pikes have something that makes them more then just Anti-Cavalry units.  I just think that Palace Guards, while better at killing cavalry then other pikes, that doesn't completely cover what they are missing.

I'm also glad that Rain of the Valar will be looked at.  I've already said what I think about it.

Concerning Legolas, maybe you don't need to remove his archer training ability, maybe make it so that it also makes the archers he used it on improved in some other way.  Maybe making their next volley of arrows have a small AoE effect that is slightly weaker then the arrows themselves?  Or maybe the Archers could fire their volleys faster for 30 seconds.

Grimbeorn could also be an option for mass-slayer, but I don't have much to say about that.

Also, I'm all for the CG-Guardians having new abilities.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 6. Dez 2015, 10:26
Thanks for the answer!


Their health is fine but as CragLord rightly said, their resistance against flying units is a problem.
I'm glad you will take down a bit their damage against units. On the other hand, I think catapults should still be able to destroy other catapults in 3 hits or so.


I didn't know that was possible for you to do that but that's a great idea in my opinion. :)


I gotta admit I always considered the porcupine formation as something left from the vanilla game just because it looked good but without any purpose. Then, I will try it in my next games before saying anything else on Palace Guards.
Still, I'd like to know how much additional armor Mirkwood units get compared to Lorien units (if you have an exact figure or anything)


Increasing the AoE of his knife will not help mass killing because this ability is actually used, rightfully, when Legolas is being attacked hand-to-hand ; if you want him to kill great amount of troops, you put him far behind and let him snipe. However I think it wouldn't be a bad thing at all to give him that buff because he has hard time defending himself right now.
Also, I personnally don't want his archer training ability to be removed. It is the only thing in his skillset that is sort of kingly and reminds us he is the Prince of Mirkwood. Plus this ability is very useful in game.
That leads us to the same conclusion: how about Grimbeorn? :P


I like that! This way every archer has his own specific purpose:
Lorien archers ~> great range
Galadhrims ~> bow/sword switch
CG-Guardians ~> murdering elite units
Mirkwood archers ~> additional armor and mass killing (if they don't move)
Elkriders ~> ?????? Lol  :D
I think Elkriders are in bad spot right now but I guess that is another debate. :)
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 6. Dez 2015, 13:23
Thanks for the response!

I don't think health is the problem, its armor against specific damage types. It takes unusually long for melee infantry and even heroes to kill a catapult if its running away, and as has already been mentioned, flying units are completely useless against them. I think that armor against all forms of melee attacks and flying units need to be decreased.

I agree that catapults are currently far too strong against heroes, especially dwarf catapults. They should receive a specific scalar to reduce their damage on heroes. I think they should remain strong against clumped units, monsters and other siege though.

I still think that 90 CP is just too much for a single ent, maybe 60 would be more suitable? It would be great if they were a bit more resistant to flame, and it would also be great if you didn't immediately lose control of them as soon as they are set on fire. I wish it was like in vanilla, where they look at themselves on fire for a second, then get enraged and can be controlled again. Having your ents run crazy from being set on fire is so freaking annoying and unfair.

I would like to say for the record that I HATE the current effect of porcupine formation. Its completely unrealistic and clunky in my view. I think that instead of stopping cavalry dead in their tracks by barely touching the pikes, and basically paralyzing and immobilizing them as long as they remain in porcupine, that it should instead just deal extremely heavy trample revenge damage. That being said, I still think the palace guard are worthy of having a custom ability, they are after all elite pikes.

Well, in my experience, melee Galadhrim are definitely not very effective against them. I can't speak so much for beornings, but I'm not sure that an army comprised mainly of tower guards could be stopped by a few beornings, there are just too many spears hitting the beornings at once for them to deal enough damage. I really dislike the current "light siege" role of beornings, I rather miss their crowd control role in the beta when they had aoe knockback, I think it filled the current missing role of mass slayer very well. Perhaps it could be weakened and reintroduced? Now that they can be knocked backed and trampled I think it would be much more fair.

I wasn't trying so much to directly compare to AotD, its foolish to do so, nothing compares to it. The issue that I have with it is how slow the boat moves and how short the duration is, enemy armies can literally run 30 feet away and completely negate the effect of the spell. To counter this, either the effect should stay on units for a little while when they leave the radius of the boat or the boat should be made faster. The rain definitely needs a buff, it actually does not kill many units at all, just knocks them around a lot, and the arrow volley should be the strongest of the currently available volleys in the game, these are Elves we are talking about here.

I personally think that Grimbeorn fits rather well into the role of mass slayer, and his bee ability is currently basically useless. It could be replaced with something better. In addition, I think he should have a different level 10 ability for each of his forms. His human form seems to be more crowd control oriented, and his bear form better with single target damage, so maybe he could get a good mass slayer power at level 10 in human form? As for Legolas, I think that the knife fighter skill needs to give more armor, not more of a damage radius, Legolas is pathetically easy to kill. I really like the archer train, but its a bit useless later on, perhaps it could give a leadership for 1 minute as well? This would increase its usefulness significantly for units that are already high level.

No response needed from me, can't wait to see what you come up with.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 8. Dez 2015, 08:25
Had a 1v1 with a friend, was teaching him how to play. He got the Ring and completely turned the match around, which is fine. However, 1 of Blessed Galadriels powers is absolutely OP. Memory of The Trees(or whatever its real name is) does absurd amounts of damage to heroes. It will bring any hero from full health to like 20%. I'm attaching the replay so people can see this in action. Combined with the incredibly long stun duration of the ability, its basically instant death for all enemy heroes in a medium radius. Additionally, I don't have a problem with how long the invulnerability lasts, but I think the radius is too wide, it shouldn't be much more than Galadriel without the Ring.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: IronSkye am 8. Dez 2015, 11:01
Had a 1v1 with a friend, was teaching him how to play. He got the Ring and completely turned the match around, which is fine. However, 1 of Blessed Galadriels powers is absolutely OP. Memory of The Trees(or whatever its real name is) does absurd amounts of damage to heroes. It will bring any hero from full health to like 20%. I'm attaching the replay so people can see this in action. Combined with the incredibly long stun duration of the ability, its basically instant death for all enemy heroes in a medium radius. Additionally, I don't have a problem with how long the invulnerability lasts, but I think the radius is too wide, it shouldn't be much more than Galadriel without the Ring.

Sorry, I am against your suggestion.
The stun isn't too long and the damage is only in a small area around her.
When I played last time I haven't noticed that the damage was really high (at least it doesn't deal 80%  of heroes life as damage, have you used only early heroes?).

The invulnerability power should be strong, because she really needs it.
And the long CD works perfectly for balance, there is no need to change something.

Please test her in further games.
br Sky

 
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 8. Dez 2015, 11:26
Did you actually watch the replay? I have proof sitting in that replay of how strong the damage is. As I said, I have no problem with the length of the invincibility, just the ridiculous radius it works at. I'm talking about Blessed Galadriel, who rejected the Ring, not her basic invulnerability.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 8. Dez 2015, 14:51
I don't think Ring Heroes were ever designed or ever truly will be balanced. I think they are meant to secure you the victory, with bizarrely OP powers. I'll watch the replay, but with this in mind. I generally don't like abilities that kill a hero instantly. Point and kill abilities are generally pretty unfair. I remember suggesting that nerf to Hawk Strike and eventually it did happen, so let's see if that power might need it too :)
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 8. Dez 2015, 15:30
Well it wouldn't even be so bad if it was just a single hero, but this can literally wipe out all your heroes. I crippled her with lurtz, rushed my heroes in to kill her asap, and suddenly they all just die. Also, I'm aware that Ring Heroes aren't meant to be balanced, but it seems to me unfair that some factions like Isengard, Mordor and Lorien have such crazy OP Ring Heroes compared to other factions. At least they should all be equally OP.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: CragLord am 8. Dez 2015, 17:27

Yes Elite, but you should understand this ability in usage terms in current shape.
You can say it is OP in your opinion, but also you shouldn't do that hero rush on her. I meant, it is powerful ability, sincerely I don't know about radius of it, but damage is ok in my opinion. Also, she is really weak after she used that spell in offensive way.
So in one hand this is protection mechanism on Blessed form so you can't do what you tried, to instantly destroy her. I know it is also powerful offensive stuff, but simply I like ability, and I think it is on its place from view that she has protection mechanism against that hero rush on her. Beside this, Blessed form is completely supportive and her regular attack damage on heroes is very low, I would say it is joke.
So next time don't try that instant hero rush on her, don't concentrate all heroes around her. ;)
Some other way is needed for killing her, and I really agree about that, maybe not so much in balance terms, but from lore and lore's consistency facts, she as holy being probably had power to do that.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 8. Dez 2015, 17:38
So there are two things I have to say about this game:

1. A slight nerf to the light ability might be in order, but not much. It's mainly because fragile heroes like Isengard's heroes suffer a lot from it, but then again, they need to be supported.

2. You were trolling your opponent the entire game, and he eventually punished you for it. That's all.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 8. Dez 2015, 18:16
I wasn't "trolling" as I said I was teaching my friend to play, and so was taking a bit longer than I normally would to finish off my opponent. Now that I know that the ability does such a frightening amount of damage, I will definitely not be attempting to defeat her with that method, I didn't know that it did so much damage the first couple times I attacked her. Regardless, I still think the damage is very high considering its combined with a 15 second-ish stun.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 8. Dez 2015, 18:49
Just played a 4v4 that ended up in less than 20 minutes. We got completely crushed by beornings. I know we played poorly, but still, check it out. Even the other team agreed beornings need some kind of limitation or/and nerf.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 8. Dez 2015, 22:27
I apologise for using the word ''trolling', it might be a bit offensive. Anyway, your friend is also my friend, good old Lotr1997.

I did agree with you on the damage of the ability so that is that. I doubt letting him win, will teach him how to play though, especially if it's because of the ring. Losing is the best way to learn, as you are certainly aware of :P.

Also, Beornings are weaker now, but they are still very useful. There are very, very few things I don't enjoy in this mod, but facing Beornings is one of them :/.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 9. Dez 2015, 01:25
I wasn't letting him win, he got the ring when I was getting ready to send rams into his base and finish him :P

I also agree that beornings still deal pretty strong damage to heroes, and don't take enough damage from them.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: SP19XX am 9. Dez 2015, 23:45
I was actually thinking that Legolas should have his archer train skill replaced. In its current format by the time it's unlocked it's very lackluster because most of Loriens archers can level up before its effective. Perhaps one of these could replace it;

Mount/Dismount - Legolas was quite often seen mounted on a horse and it would make him the only other mounted ranged hero (Gamling being the other). Plus it would allow him to act as a support for Thranduil and the Elk Riders.

Leadership that benefits archers in some form. - This ones a bit trickier on the exact mechanics but it would also serve as a buff to a number of units, maybe increasing their attack speed to match his own?

A skill that temporarily summons Gimli and / or Aragorn, that draws all aggression to himself in a short range, similar to the Ered Luin summons.

There are other potential options of course but I find that skill to be underwhelming as it is.


Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 9. Dez 2015, 23:57
While I think that your reasoning is sound, and you propose some interesting things, I also believe that Legolas is already a pretty solid hero and I think this issue has an easier solution, namely by unlocking the ability at an earlier level. Saruman unlocks his power of speech at level 3 and he is more expensive than Legolas, so there is perhaps incentive for that. Switch around Hawk Strike and Train Archers, for instance.

The Mount/Dismount might actually be interesting, but then Gamling kind of gets pooped on haha.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 10. Dez 2015, 00:02
Zitat
Switch around Hawk Strike and Train Archers, for instance.
I don't like this idea. "Hawk Strike" is a very elementar spell in Legolas' arsenal, personally I think it was better off as his starting ability, but I get the reason for switching it with his melee ability. However having his signature snipe ability only unlocked at level 5 (or 7? Isn't his level 5 spell "Elven eye"? I don't know, please forgive me. xD) would be way too late.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: SP19XX am 10. Dez 2015, 00:19
While I think that your reasoning is sound, and you propose some interesting things, I also believe that Legolas is already a pretty solid hero and I think this issue has an easier solution, namely by unlocking the ability at an earlier level. Saruman unlocks his power of speech at level 3 and he is more expensive than Legolas, so there is perhaps incentive for that. Switch around Hawk Strike and Train Archers, for instance.

The Mount/Dismount might actually be interesting, but then Gamling kind of gets pooped on haha.
Well the main idea of the Mount / Dismount was the idea of supporting Thranduil. In general the idea of the tank is to lure in enemies and heroes and stand against them for longer than other units while armies / hero killer / mass slayers support them.

With Thranduil having the role of tank and being Lorien's lone mounted hero meaning he's usually far ahead of the armies, and with Legolas being a hybrid Mass Slayer with a Hero Killing Aspect, it fits perfectly well for both of them to engage on the front lines together to cover eachother's weaknesses and improves the effectiveness of utilizing the Elk Riders, as they can have a hero supporting them.

To compensate the issue with Gamling perhaps he could recieve some nerfs overall while mounted to make up for it. But do however bear in mind this idea gives Legolas a mount at level 7, while Gamling can access it at any time so long as Rohan has a stables out. Not to mention Legolas and Gamling vary a lot in roles with Gamling being a unit supporter who can call out additional allies / supporting those he's near.

Edit: Note to mention at present most of the main Mass Slayers in other factions are in fact mounted or act as though they are. Eomer, Gandalf, Witch King, Smaug, etc.  Saruman, Gimli, Murin and Dwalin being the exceptions, however The Dwarves have no cavalry units at all except within the Iron Hills and Saruman has one of the most versatile set of roles in the game to make up for it.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 10. Dez 2015, 00:39
Seems I forgot about the elven sight ability. That one could be a pretty decent alternative as well. While Legolas does have a hero killer aspect, his main strength comes from his standard attack and his arrow wind ability if you ask me. Mounting could be interesting, I am indifferent to what gets changed around, apart from the Hawk Strike and Arrow Wind.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 10. Dez 2015, 02:21
Please don't give Legolas a mount, it's the most boring ability ever. It would also be a balancing nightmare to have a mass slaying hero with that range and an ability that deals a lot of damage vs heroes on a horse so you can't outrun him... And if you nerf his damage on the horse, why get the horse at all? Also, just because the movies show him riding a horse sometimes doesn't mean he has to get the ability. By that logic pretty much every hero in the game could get a mount. And just the fact that some other heroes can mount doesn't mean Legolas has to have a mount as well.

That being said, I do agree that the training skill doesn't fit his mass slaying/hero killing role too well, although it is an iconic ability. But a leadership wouldn't solve this either. Having Gimli as a summon could work, but those kind of abilities are always a bit iffy to use and I generally don't like it (that's just personal preference though :P).
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: SP19XX am 10. Dez 2015, 08:37
Well as you said it's boring and indeed there are other options it's just that while an iconic ability from BFME it's just lack luster in it's current position because by the time it's obtained most Lorien/Mirkwood Archers are almost at the level cap or have reached it regardless.

The idea behind the Gimli suggestion was that he works in a slave system with his level 7 taunt ability as a passive, allowing Legolas to make full use of his arrow wind/hawk strike while being pressured for maximum damage.

The point is that skill most of the time feels wasted. If anyone else has a suggestion feel free to voice it though.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 11. Dez 2015, 16:36
I personally feel that Gimli shouldn't be a summonable from Legolas.  The main reason for that is that Gimli is already in 2 factions (Dwarves,  And Rohan as a summon.)  Assuming that Imladris keeps its Council of Elrond power, which if I remember correctly, can summon Gimli, then that's 3 factions already.  If he is added to Lothlorien as well, then every good faction besides Gondor/Arnor has Gimli in some way.   Isn't that too much? 

Nothing against Gimli, in fact he is one of my favorite characters, but in my opinion he shouldn't be in that many factions. 

Also, I feel that Legolas, as a very skilled archer, should have his Train Archers ability, despite his role as a hero.  But like I said a few posts ago, maybe it should have another effect on top of giving exp. 
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: SP19XX am 14. Dez 2015, 01:09
Well this might sound quite overwhelming but what if it instead targeted single battalions, and set them to max level, with a permanent ranged damage buff that doesn't stack. It could be minimal. It makes it a much more efficient skill in terms of use, but also means you have to pick wisely which battalion it's used on.

Or instead of a damage buff, a minor increase to their attack speed.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 14. Dez 2015, 01:24
Those sort of skills never really work the way they are intended to do: The problem is that, eventhough the cursor shows you only clicking on one bataillon, it still effects everyone in a small area (like say Mornamarths old level 1 spell). Therefore you just have to clump your entire army and this will affect more than just one bataillon.
Also: I know the ability is not the special, but it still is a rather nice spell and it shows Lorien's archer focus. I personally just like the idea of those XP-generating spells if they are not used too frequently (which means, one per faction is enough ;)), but considering the good factions should always try to keep their troops alive and generally have more options to do so, I think it's already a neat spell. I'm open for discussion about Legolas, but this is one of his signature abilities since Battle for Middle Earth 1 and I don't really need every spell in the game to a complex, graphical array of amazement. ;) It is a common misconception that more complex spells make the game(play) itself more complex, sometimes a straight-forward ability is just what does the job. :) E.g. leveling archers essentially gives them better stats why making it more complicated with such a unique buff? (Note that this shouldn't imply you were suggesting something needlessly complicated!)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 14. Dez 2015, 02:02
Well said Melkor. You have swung me into your favour.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 24. Jan 2016, 05:27
So I discovered something concerning today, while playing in multiplayer as Lorien. Lorien Warriors lose to basic orcs in 1 on 1 combat, and mine were even buffed with tainted land. On camp maps, loriens melee roster is so weak that they basically lose if their against a rush faction like Mordor or Rohan. Its ridiculously easy to shut them down early game, and since beornings can be trampled and do very little direct damage in bear form, it makes it quite easy to counter them as well. I think something should be done to address this.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: -DJANGO- am 24. Jan 2016, 09:07
Tested Lorien Sowrdsmen against Mordor Orcs with a  friend. They die without banner carrier after the 2. Battalion (interesting how much damage orcs do, huh?). With Banner Carrier they hold like 4 Battalions (Battalion after Battalion). So you see, Banner Carriers are the most important upgrade for Lorien. Though, i question why they have to die so easily.

Concerning Beornings: In my eyes they are/should be only support. They are strong enough in both forms. A Beorning House start is always risky, especially if you fight against a faction that counters Beornings well (like Rohan, Isen with their hunt-arrows).
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 24. Jan 2016, 10:08
The problem is not the orcs damage, its the health of the Lorien Warriors. It is good to know the banner carriers help though, I will keep that in mind.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 24. Jan 2016, 14:34
The issue is known and we're on it. ;)
A straight buff for lorien swordsmen will effect other matchups as well, though, and might give them quite the advantage against a faction like the dwarves. And it should go hand in hand with further tweaks to beorningers. Nevertheless, it is very clear that the Mordor-Lorien matchup is nearly impossible to win for Lorien atm because of this problem.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 24. Jan 2016, 15:26
Yay, Great news! :)
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 24. Jan 2016, 16:01
I'm all in favour of giving more attention and importance to the Elven warriors and dimishing Beorningers to support role only.

However, I'm not sure if buffing the Lorien warriors is the thing to do. One of the top players in the Warhammer 40k Elite Mod forums once said: If you have an overpowered and an underpowered thing, always nerf the overpowered thing first, never first buff the underpowered one, because it will screw with more matchups that have already been proven to be right.

I concur with this, it's simply an issue of the default orcs still doing a bit too much damage compared to their cost. However, a straigt up nerf is usually not such a good idea. I would be in favour of decreasing their damage by 5-10% again but also decreasing their build time by a couple of seconds to get them on the field just a teensy bit earlier for ample compensation. Then, Beorningers are receiving some nerfs, while the Lorien warriors will be receiving some buffs.

Sounds good to me, all in all.

Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 24. Jan 2016, 18:15
One of the top players in the Warhammer 40k Elite Mod forums once said: If you have an overpowered and an underpowered thing, always nerf the overpowered thing first, never first buff the underpowered one
You talking about that guy (https://dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=51153#p51137)? :P

Back to topic though: It's not that easy. Orcs vs Lorien swordsmen usually ends up in very few surviving elves on low hp, which is probably one of the reasons why they are considered to be too strong atm. Gondor swordsmen on the other hand don't have this problem at all, half of the batallion survives the fight even without using their formation. Nerfing orcs into the ground would just lead to Mordor getting roflstomped by Gondor, which is also not desirable. Just putting it out there that the matchup thing works both ways ;)
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 24. Jan 2016, 20:41
Glad to hear the problem is known by the team, never saw an indication of this on the English part of the beta forums.

Yes, your right about Gondor soldiers vs orcs, and that's not the only matchup. Nerfing orcs will really hurt Mordor against several other factions early game, especially Rohan, which is why I'm against it.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 24. Jan 2016, 22:18
I was indeed talking about him, but it's not purely his quote. It came from HolyHammer first, IIRC, a long term DOW II pro player.

Anyway, I don't wish to nerf Orcs into the ground, but to me, Mordor rolls any faction with less trouble than the others. So, somewhere, Mordor is overperforming. While I agree that default Lorien Swordsmen are rather lacking at the moment, it is in my opinion not solely because of that, but rather because we compare nearly every situation to Mordor, because we are mostly aware that Mordor is pretty much the strongest faction at any stage of the game. When I observe Mordor play, I focus on the things that lead to breakthroughs in fights or to shifting tides. This is usually siege or the spam of a certain unit with most factions. In Mordor's case, it's both siege and orcs. Heroes give the spam some bulk, but most of the times, you can outspam enemy formations and buy enough time to replace your losses.

I am fine with giving the default troops of Lorien some attention, because they seem to be bypassed quite quickly, especially by Mirkwood's units, which seem to replace them, instead of working alongside them.

Regarding the Gondor Soldiers, I think it's quite obvious that they survive because they have so many models to spread the damage over. Oh and that Gondor simply rocks :P.

Nonetheless, we shall see what the tidings bring. I just wish to depromote the ''spam'' of units. If my suggestions make Orc spam less popular, so be it, even if it contradicts Mordor's design. The more diverse an army composition is, the more fun the game should be, if you ask me.

(Ps. @Elendils Cousin 3. Grades, do you follow Elite mod, per chance?)
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 26. Jan 2016, 16:35
I know this belongs in the Mordor balance thread, but I wanted to reply to Odysseus since he posted about Mordor here.  I'll try to keep it short :)

The more diverse an army composition is, the more fun the game should be, if you ask me.

Honestly, I would argue that Mordor is the most diverse Faction in the entire game.  Yes, you will see a lot of free orcs in the Early game of Mordor.  But pretty much every other faction only uses 2 or 3 units in there early game as well.  And later in the game, the amount of choices a Mordor player has is very large.  Cirith Ungol Orcs, a large roster of heroes, trolls, different variations of the standard orcs, the outpost specific units, a good roster of siege, Rhun and Harad Reinforcements, Orc Overseers, the lesser wraiths things that come from using Morgul Blade while Minas Morgul is influence by Sauron,  and those Werewolves Gorthuar can make from his fortress.  And that's not even counting what you decide to use Influence of Sauron on, which give so many choices on what you want to upgrade first.  I don't think any other faction compares to how many choices of units Mordor has.  Yes, you will see free orcs a lot, but free orcs by themselves can't win against the late game armies of the other factions.

As for improving Lorien Warriors, I completely agree.  They are too weak against the other stating units, which makes smaller maps very hard to deal with.  It also pretty much forces the player to spam Beornings because they are just better in pretty much every way early on.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Sefie1999AD am 17. Mär 2016, 02:47
I've been thinking about Lothlorien's Ent units. They cost 900 credits, and what do you get with that money: a unit that is a battering ram and a catapult, can trample over enemies, has a wide melee attack that knocks enemies back, and they also get a speed boost when they see Lumber Mills or other Ents dying, so they can even be used like a temporary cavalry, to trample units and chase enemies. I'm not completely sure about this, but they seem to induce fear on enemy units too. Ents are indeed an intimidating force that needs to be taken seriously in the battlefield, or they will bring your base down in a few moments.

I was thinking about ways how I'd want to see the Ents changed. One choice would be to reduce their damage to heroes, so you have at least some units that can challenge Ents in close-range battles. Another choice would be to increase their cost. Some Elven units cost more than the Ents, but are a lot less threatening (*cough* Haldir xD). Then I was thinking, why are the Ents such a threat in the first place? To counter them, you need fire arrows, catapults or strong (usually mid/lategame) heroes. The first two usually require you to upgrade your buildings. For some factions, Fire Arrows even require upgrading to level 3. Ents, on the other hand, could be recruited ever since you reach your first settlement. Money is the only limitation, but since every Lorien structure provides resources (honey harvesting provides double resources), my economy is usually very strong with Lothlorien anyway. When you get an Entmoot set up, Ents are available right away. Since other factions need to upgrade their structures to get catapult-class weapons, I was thinking of implementing the same limitation for Ents.

If you remember, Ents never want to be hasty, so it would make sense if they took a long time to get and couldn't be recruited right away. Therefore, I'm proposing an upgrade system for Entmoots:

Entmoot, level 1 (base level):
* Can recruit Quickbeam since he is considered very hasty
* Has an Ent gathering upgrade that raises the Entmoot to level 2

Entmoot, level 2:
* Gives access to ordinary Ents
* Has an advanced Ent gathering upgrade that raises the Entmoot to level 3

Entmoot, level 3:
* Gives access to Treebeard
* Maybe has a passive ability that decreases the build time for Ents, or extinguishes fire from nearby Ents, or something like that

This way, you'll have more time to prepare for an Ent rush, and you aren't as forced to tech-rush to fire arrows and fire catapults to counter the Ents. To compensate for the Ents being delayed, they could perhaps gain a small armor boost, to make them even sturdier. From a strategic point of view, this will make scouting more important: if you find an Entmoot under construction, you'll have all the time to prepare for an Ent rush, but if you fail to scout, the Ents will be more dangerous than ever before.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Sawman am 17. Mär 2016, 20:42
I personally don't think Ents need a nerf if anything they need a buff of some sort. Have you tested them against pikes? Its the same result as if you were fighting trolls they almost instantly die because they try to trample and fire arrows for most factions are easy enough to get it might take a little time but the pike men can hold them off until you do. And another thing to add if you have two or more hero's they can take down an Ent with ease and myself I almost never buy Ents because of these weaknesses and high cost, there are better things to buy so to speak.

Thanks   
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 18. Mär 2016, 13:07
I agree with  Sefie1999AD just about the last thing of upgrading entmoot. I think that they don't need to be nerfed but upgrading entmoot step by step would be nice improvement. ;)
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Sefie1999AD am 18. Mär 2016, 19:00
Just to clarify my point, I didn't eventually propose that the Ents would get directly nerfed. On the 2nd paragraph of my last post, I meant I initially wanted to see the Ents nerfed, but when I started to think why the Ents are so problematic, I realized that the problem isn't that they're strong, the problem is that they're available too early. As a result, I proposed that instead of a direct nerf, I'd like to see an Entmood upgrade system. That way, the Ents wouldn't be available as early, but the setback would be compensated with other things (for example, higher recruitment speed on an upgraded Entmoot, maybe better armor for Ents etc).

Have you tested them against pikes? Its the same result as if you were fighting trolls they almost instantly die because they try to trample and fire arrows for most factions are easy enough to get it might take a little time but the pike men can hold them off until you do.

I assumed the Ents can simply use their close-range attack to knock back the pikes, but if they can work as a decent counter to hold off the Ents until fire arrows are available, then that's good to know.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 15. Apr 2016, 18:02
Good day gents,

Been a while since Lothlorien had something to discuss about.

I wanted to ask, does anybody by how much damage Legolas' Hawk Strike was reduced?

I remember personally posting that it did insane amounts of damage, more than Aragorn's knife throw and I had suggested a nerf.

However now, it seems that Legolas' Hawk Strike does very little damage by default. I fear it has been overnerfed, can anyone confirm?
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: kreso am 16. Apr 2016, 15:47
Zitat
it seems that Legolas' Hawk Strike does very little damage by default
1+

While he prepare for Hawk Strike, he can shot 3 times his normal attacks. So a bit useless.
Maybe make tha skill usefull against monster or heroes? :)
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Tirano am 7. Mai 2016, 05:11
I think that heroes should have more resistance to eagles, today i was playing against elves and eagles or Radagast mounted kill 3 heroes in a few second, is a lot of damage even when my heroes are in a high lvl.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 9. Mai 2016, 14:17
So I've had a lot of time to use Legolas due to the amount of times I've tried to help record a certain map for a certain YouTube channel, and I think I can say that Legolas seems to be a little underpowered right now.  And I'm not just talking about Hawk Strike.  He seems to have trouble fulfilling both his Mass Slayer Role, and his minor Hero Killing Role.  It is hard to say exactly what is wrong with Legolas without comparing him to someone else, and unfortunately, he is very unique, so there really isn't a perfect hero to compare him to.  But for the sake of this post, I will compare him to someone similar in price and role, and just happens to be a friend of his.....

Legolas vs Gimli

And no, I don't mean actually who would win in a fight.  I just am comparing their roles for the factions they are on, and how well they fulfil those roles. 

Comparing their Standard attack, they are pretty well balanced.  Gimli does more damage, but Legolas has a ranged attack with a higher attack speed.  I don't see a problem there.  The best thing about Legolas right now is his Incredible Range and Attack Speed.

But Unfortunately, this is where the balance comes to an end in my opinion.  Their abilities really heavily favor Gimli.    Let's go through them, shall we?

Knife Fighter is really supposed to Highlight Legolas's Mass Slayer Role, as well as his Hero Killing role somewhat..  He deals higher damage and hits multiple enemies at once, at the cost of having to go to melee combat.  The problem is Legolas doesn't have a lot of health, and the 20% armor increase doesn't make help this.  Not only that, but Legolas really sticks out while using it, really highlighting that he takes too much damage while using it.  As a result, this ability become a huge risk in an Army vs Army situation.  The Armor bonus needs to be higher if this Ability is going to be worth using.

Hawk Strike deals low damage, and hits a small amount of people.  Am I missing something here?  Because this seems to be blatantly obvious how underpowered it is in my opinion if it did a lot more damage, then I wouldn't mind it not hitting not many enemies, but it doesn't.  It really is a waste of an ability right now, not helping either of his roles.  Meanwhile, Gimli is getting a Leap that does more damage, hits more enemies, and sends launches everyone it hits.  Even 1 basic attack from Galadirel does about the same, if not more then this ability. 

Now the rest of Legolas's abilities are good right now, the only debatable one being Train Archers due to it not fitting his role, but if Knife Fighter and Hawk Strike are improved, then this won't be a big problem.  But the problem is he gets them so late, and due to his first 2 abilities underperforming, it making Legolas not worth the buy.

Gimli greatly outperforms Legolas right now.  Both Leap and Stubbornness are great Mass Slaying abilities, and Axe Throw, Slayer, and his high health making him a lot better then Legolas at hero killing.  And I wouldn't say that Gimli is too good right now, because he does cost a lot of money, and is very much able to die. 

So I would love to see both Knife Fighter and Hawk Strike improved.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 9. Mai 2016, 14:35
I don't mean to agree or disagree with your point, but I think his Knife Fighter ability is not meant to be used in an Army vs Army situation but rather is an "emergency" ability in case  enemies reach out to Legolas.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 9. Mai 2016, 14:58
But that is the problem.  Knife Fighter doesn't make Legolas strong enough to hold his ground.  He will still die very quickly to most other heroes.  I guess you can you it for the Armor bonus just to run away, but is obviously not what the ability is for.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 9. Mai 2016, 15:05
I do agree on that, it does not make Legolas as strong as it should be to survive.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 9. Mai 2016, 15:37
Most other heroes should beat him 1v1, even when he uses his knives. How are you supposed to kill him if it were the other way around? It's an ability to slay units surrounding him in melee combat, and the armor boost is nice when you have to run. With his incredible range Legolas shouldn't be caught by enemy heroes anyway.

Hawk Strike could use a buff, I agree to that, but I wouldn't raise the initial damage too much (I'd like to see a buff against flying units while we're at it... I'd like that for all sniping abilities btw, such as Istari Light or Faramir's special shot). I'd rather change the aoe pattern to something more consistent, the new pierce-enemies-thing is not nearly as intuitive as the classic Wizard Blast/Jump.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 9. Mai 2016, 16:01
Aye, well I also posted about this several times. I remember when in Edain 4.2, when Lothlorien was first released, the original Hawk Strike could bring down the average hero's health to less than 50% from full health. It was insane. I think I was the first to post about it too. Now, I got my wish, it was nerfed. However, it was not only nerfed, it was overhauled. I don't understand why? Legolas was a classic BFME I/II hero with a classic moveset, just like Gandalf. Why was this ability changed? Legolas' mass slaying capabilities lies in his amazing default attack and attack speed as well as his level 10 arrow wind ability, not a splitting Hawk Strike.

I would return the old Hawk Strike, and adjust its damage similarly to Gimli's axe throw and Aragorn's knife throw.

I think Legolas' Knife Fighter is fine. It's an emergency self-defense ability, just like with Tauriel.

Also, I agree with Elendil. All these snipe abilities should be improved somewhat. I think the bug with the not-scaling magic abilities will fix that though, no?
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 9. Mai 2016, 16:11
Just to clarify: The bug that Skeeverboy mentioned only impacts the damage type MAGIC, nothing else. It caused the issue that the damage of Eomer's spear throw increased with each level (as intended), but the Wizard Blast did not, to name an example. Legolas Hawk Strike deals HERO_RANGED afaik.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 9. Mai 2016, 16:38
Most other heroes should beat him 1v1, even when he uses his knives. How are you supposed to kill him if it were the other way around? It's an ability to slay units surrounding him in melee combat, and the armor boost is nice when you have to run. With his incredible range Legolas shouldn't be caught by enemy heroes anyway.
I understand that increasing his armor by too much would make him too hard to kill.  But I don't exactly understand why Legolas should lose to most heroes in a 1v1.  He is supposed to be partly a Hero Killer.  So I don't know what the purpose of Knife Fighter is.  His health isn't high enough to withstand being attacked too much, making going into melee combat a bad idea.  So why ever even let your enemies come near Legolas?  I guess if your enemy is mounted you have to active it and stand your ground, but you will most like lose in that situation anyways.  And as you said, the Armor boost is nice when running away, but the ability is called Knife Fighter, not Knife Escaper. :P  This ability is clearly not ment for running away.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 9. Mai 2016, 17:38
Zitat
Just to clarify: The bug that Skeeverboy mentioned only impacts the damage type MAGIC, nothing else.
Woops, I knew that. I should have been clearer. I was referencing magic abilities that snipe.

Just the sniping abilities in the game, could potentially scale with level. It should never insta kill of course, but neither should it fall off in worth the further the game progresses.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 9. Mai 2016, 17:54
I wouldn't mind seeing Sniping abilities dealing more damage as you level up, though as you said, it would have to be a small amount, so they are not doing too much damage. 
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Tirano am 25. Mai 2016, 05:38
the eagles make insane damage to heroes, i think it is too much, they need a nerf in that aspect

Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 25. Mai 2016, 13:37
I don't agree Eagle damage against Heroes is too much.  Getting Eagles does cost 7 power points, which isn't cheap at all, and they have a short time limit.  I think it is reasonable for them to do the damage they do now.  Also remember that while any flying unit is attacking a Hero, they do not deal damage to anything around the Hero.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 25. Mai 2016, 20:37
I don't agree Eagle damage against Heroes is too much.  Getting Eagles does cost 7 power points, which isn't cheap at all, and they have a short time limit.  I think it is reasonable for them to do the damage they do now.  Also remember that while any flying unit is attacking a Hero, they do not deal damage to anything around the Hero.

^^ +1
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 28. Sep 2016, 01:54
Was I the only one who laughed about this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpcpabDS_8Y

What do you think of it balance-wise? I'm kind of torn, on the one hand, it's not that difficult to avoid it if you have a mouse and working fingers, but on the other hand, once you bunch up, which is what happens usually later into the game, you get mauled. Thoughts?
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 28. Sep 2016, 02:02
I never thought he was that strong! Don't know if he is overpowered or not, but killing 14 hordes of Gondor Swordsmen... Imagine if he were to face Mordor Orcs  :D I guess I'll be using Legolas more from now on!
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Sawman am 28. Sep 2016, 04:47
Legolas still isn't very good, the video only shows him against basics without upgrades without any heroes with them, legolas loses to most heroes because of the way he is set up being only able to melee attack for a short time and you can just run away from this ability so no he's not overpowered he's underpowered if anything
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 28. Sep 2016, 05:42
Legolas still isn't very good, the video only shows him against basics without upgrades without any heroes with them, legolas loses to most heroes because of the way he is set up being only able to melee attack for a short time and you can just run away from this ability so no he's not overpowered he's underpowered if anything
^This. He gets wrecked by most heroes, and troops with leadership/upgrades as you are likely to have late game can wreck him. I think he just needs a boost to arrow damage and a small cost decrease to be made useful.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 28. Sep 2016, 10:42
That's true! You can walk away from it, so in truth he is not overpowered at all, but if the player (or the AI) makes the mistake of not retiring their troops, it is quite useful. Agree about his arrow damage and his cost though, this is just a temporary ability and can be easily avoided, but at range he is not that great. Everytime I encounter him (When playing against AI), he gets so easily killed because he cannot finish my units before they get to him (and AI almost never walks away, except with Siege units).
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 28. Sep 2016, 13:48
Well, he IS a mass slayer. It's like saying Gandalf's WoP is OP. Legolas will be taken down by most heroes even those much cheaper than him. Agree with Kryptik's suggestions.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: DaGeggo am 28. Sep 2016, 17:17
I dont think that making him strogner is necessary; if the enemies reach him, you can just activate his first ability and they get slayn extremely fast. Have you tried riders? Its really annoying... especially bacause of him levelling so fast. The last boost he got gave him the right strength, I think.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 28. Sep 2016, 18:10
I am for having Legolas deal more range damage, though not too big of increase due to his incredibly high attack range and speed. 

I don't agree with a price decrease though.  He already cost around 1300 with 3 Wine Cellars bought, which is something most of people do already, due to how much money they make when upgraded.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: calixoxx am 12. Jan 2017, 03:43
I agree with most here: Lorien is extremely strong late game and has essentially no counters.

. Haldirs arrow recharges way too quickly. Either his stun ability OR Galadriel's stun ability need to be at higher lvls???

. I would like to see trample immunity debuffed or done away with, as this is Lorien's only real potential counter and it's eliminated so easily. Maybe decrease it's range?

. Legolas' knives is way too strong. He needs an overall debuff.

I would like to see the Lorien fort's defensive archer range decreased as well, it's impossible to siege. Conversely, a camp without silverthornes is extremely vulnerable to 2-3 ram rush, which is silly. And the bug that auto-defeats if a camp citadel is destroyed makes this worse.

I do believe ents are a little too strong. Their HP is crazy and the range is crazier. Yes I get the price, but they are easily spammed, they camouflage in the forest, and you can't touch them with unupgraded units.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 12. Jan 2017, 21:09
Yes, Lorien is a bit problematic at the current time.

Haldir's Golden Arrow has some nerfs coming in the next patch.

I would also like to see trample immunity done away with and Palace Guards nerfed, Lorien's weakness should be cavalry.

Legolas Knives are fine. Just because he can wreck unupgraded soldiers does not mean he can do the same thing to an upgraded army, supported by heroes. He has practically no army, and gets destroyed by enemy heroes in close.

Beyond the camp bug, I see no problem with Lorien's defences. By the time they have fully upgraded silverthorn archers and towers, you have siege. The biggest problem is the Caras Galadhons, who can outrange siege when put on a platform. I think their range should be brought down a bit.

Ents are indeed too strong right now. I think their weakness should be upgraded arrows, which it currently is, and heroes. The problem is certain damage types deal nothing to them, namely Angmar Ice Arrows and Isengard Steel Bolts. Most other factions can handle them ok with upgraded arrows though, so they really just need to take more damage from Isengard and Angmar, and heroes in general, and they'll be ok I think.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: calixoxx am 15. Jan 2017, 02:42
Yes, Lorien is a bit problematic at the current time.

Haldir's Golden Arrow has some nerfs coming in the next patch.

I would also like to see trample immunity done away with and Palace Guards nerfed, Lorien's weakness should be cavalry.

Legolas Knives are fine. Just because he can wreck unupgraded soldiers does not mean he can do the same thing to an upgraded army, supported by heroes. He has practically no army, and gets destroyed by enemy heroes in close.

Beyond the camp bug, I see no problem with Lorien's defences. By the time they have fully upgraded silverthorn archers and towers, you have siege. The biggest problem is the Caras Galadhons, who can outrange siege when put on a platform. I think their range should be brought down a bit.

Ents are indeed too strong right now. I think their weakness should be upgraded arrows, which it currently is, and heroes. The problem is certain damage types deal nothing to them, namely Angmar Ice Arrows and Isengard Steel Bolts. Most other factions can handle them ok with upgraded arrows though, so they really just need to take more damage from Isengard and Angmar, and heroes in general, and they'll be ok I think.

Heros? Ents wreck heros. Especially Quickbeam  :o
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 16. Jan 2017, 01:16
I don't think you read my post correctly, I said that ents SHOULD take more damage from heroes, I didn't say they are countered by heroes currently.

Also, Quickbeam is a hero himself, like Treebeard, so its not really fair to compare them to standard ents.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: calixoxx am 16. Jan 2017, 02:25
I was saying he is fast and heros cannot run away from him as easily as other ents.  :D :D :D :D

Regardless, I am happy to see we agree here.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 26. Jan 2017, 15:18
Those 2 spells are to strong currently at this moment can i  suggest to nerf them a little ?
Elbereth Gilthoniel to 50% and Star of Earendil to 5%

Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: -DJANGO- am 26. Jan 2017, 16:36
I would agree with Star of Earendil to 5 %.
I'm against Elbereth Gilthoniel Nerf due to the high CD and only 30 sec. Effect.

Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Sawman am 27. Jan 2017, 15:20
I think the weather power should be nerfed a bit because it basically makes your base impossible to attack and makes your hero's very tanky and I have seen it stun units, I'd argue it's the best weather affect in the game considering that most other affects just stun and if you have fear resistance of any kind it is just a waste of 6 power points.

Another spell book power I'd like to see massively nerfed is the boat, it's basically an invincibility which Lorien already has plus it counters every other 10 point power in the game, it also has this dumb affect where if it's over an enemy army you can't see nor control that army anymore until the boat is gone which in most cases your army has died before the boat is even gone which brings me to my next point that it lasts way to long for what it does.

It is just insane the things this boat can do and it can't be countered in anyway. Only very few things can kill the units under the boat but they won't kill everything under the boat

Anyway just some thoughts
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 27. Jan 2017, 15:25
Vingilot will get nerfed.

Darkness gives all your units on the entire map a damage boost for several minutes, Freezing Rain completely negates any leaderships. Both of those are way stronger than Elbereth imo, since fear resistance counters the stun spells as you already said.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 27. Jan 2017, 17:52
Effect wise, Darkness and Freezing Rain are definitely stronger then Elbereth Githoniel.  The problem is both of those can be canceled out by another weather effect, while Elbereth Gilthoniel is short but strong, can't be canceled out as far as I know, and has a much shorter cooldown because of Light of the White Lady (Yes Mordor and Angmar can get spellbook reductions too, but that is at the cost of other buildings, and other factions have nothing like that).   

Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 2. Feb 2017, 09:50
That feels like very drastic of a measure, especially adding in the lifesteal. Also don't forget that the Isengard Berserker is locked behind 2.5k of research cost. Making them better them berserker will just push them back in the OP zone, especially with the changes you've proposed.

In my eyes, a slight buff in damage or some other offensive stats should be plenty enough.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 3. Feb 2017, 19:31
Oh no. No. No. No. No. No.
I think lifesteal is one of these mechanics that are a horrible idea in Edain, considering how much of a brawl it can become. It makes certain units completely impossible to kill in melee by non-heroes and that is usually a really bad idea. (More precisely: Units without high single target damage can't do that.)
Apart from that, I don't get why Beornings would have lifesteal. It's not like they are vampiric in nature, which at least makes this feature able to be explained for e.g. barrow wights.
And last but not least: I think, there are tons of free parameters for improving Beornings -also indirectly, as the house has some quite interesting mechanics. (Are the bee-swarms still a thing, by the way?)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Captain Jin am 8. Apr 2017, 17:24
So yesterday was playing against Lothlorien AI in a casual 1v1 just for fun and learning about factions I rarely play. Was playing as Rohan and had a level 4 Theoden and a level 3 Gamling in my base defending against a level 1 Grimbeorn. Both were killed with Grimbeorn losing less than half his health. I've yet to be able to replicate this with AI because they simply won't spawn Grimbeorn and at the moment no friends are online for me to test. If someone could confirm this as a thing, I think that'd give this thread a pretty good talking point, haha. I'm going to trying making a map and replicating the incident in the meantime.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 8. Apr 2017, 23:59
Grimbeorn has a really powerful damage buff he can apply to himself, so it makes sense. Everything working as intended there.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: chasemm18 am 31. Mai 2017, 19:14
Hi! Sorry this is in English, I was curious if there was any way to edit or adjust the cost of upgrades using the edain mod, I love the mod but some of the upgrade costs are insane!! 700 for silverthorn arrows for each group of archers is nuts! I would love if it if i could adjust that to make it 300.

any help would be very much appreciated! Thank you!
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Walküre am 31. Mai 2017, 19:27
Hi! Sorry this is in English, I was curious if there was any way to edit or adjust the cost of upgrades using the edain mod, I love the mod but some of the upgrade costs are insane!! 700 for silverthorn arrows for each group of archers is nuts! I would love if it if i could adjust that to make it 300.

any help would be very much appreciated! Thank you!

Hello. Welcome to Modding Union. Of course, you may surely post suggestions, advices or your general thoughts on a given matter; but this must be done in the balance-related suggestion boards of the forum. I will move this topic there and merge it with the general suggestion thread.

Besides, I find the cost of silver-thorn arrows very just for the case. Their effectiveness is simply amazing. I once managed to exterminate a full-armoured army of Rivendell, just with these miraculous thorns xD
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 31. Mai 2017, 21:07
Not exactly the right thread if you just want to edit it for your own fun, but so far as balance goes: Keep in mind that silverthorns are also twice as good as other archer upgrades like fire arrows.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Walküre am 31. Mai 2017, 21:52
My fault. I thought that his question was a general request for balance changes. Then, topics concerning codes can be dealt with in the Modding Corner section, if that is the purpose.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Mr.Todd am 27. Jan 2020, 20:44
Hello, I don't know if it's me or not but I think that the Ash Ents are too strong against farms, in two hits they can destroy an economic building outside the castle. they are great and usefull but maybe you should nerf them a little.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Aiphaton am 12. Feb 2020, 13:28
Hello together,

another statement I'd like to make in regard of balance.

This time it is about Lorien. Lots of changes between 4.4.1 and 4.5 make for a way more interesting (and very nicely designed) Lorien.

However after playing with and also against them a few times I discovered some issues that might have to be adressed in order to restore a general balance.
There are some feature which make Lorien way stronger as a faction as in 4.4.1, but there are also a few things I'd like to adress which make for a negativ or even frustrating gameplay as Lorien.

1. Refuge in the woods.
I really like this one. A tree being summoned a spell upon to bring benefit for own units. BUT the big downside is that it heals units while it's indestructible (if not by the hard counter for it: workers and/or units which trample trees).
Now by the experience I made as of now, this spell is often used very agressively to secure critical parts of the map, or is even summoned right infront of the opponent's base. But fighting against Lorien next to that tree is basically suicide due to the high healing and restoration rate.
This makes this tier 2 spell with two needed spellpoints more important than the central spell, which is pretty much rendered useless and often unused due to refuge in the woods.
 -> As for a possible solution I'd like to suggest a simple buff for armor (since Lorien lacks armor mostly) while fighting in the refuge of the woods. This would also suite the Lore, since Elfs are fighting on known territory, knowing the advantages which gives them a buff of perhaps 20% armor. A permanently summoned armor buff makes for a great experience since the goal for the Lorien-Player is to steer fights into the direction of those trees. Through the long debounce time it's also not possible for it to be summoned everywhere all the time.
The central spell could be extended by the healing ability once the hearttree reachs it's highest level. The perks to that: It can also be destroyed and it gets even more important to take care of the tree. In order for that change the necessary spellpoints might be raised from 3 to 5.

2. The arrowvolley:
Perhaps I am mistaken, but seemingly this ability ignores heavy armor. It shouldn't do that imo. On top of that the ability needs a slightly longer notice since off host players can't dodge the spell when playing vs a host player.

3. As much as I like the longer recruitement time of heroes which high CP, as Lorien this is a double edged sword. For example if Celeborn dies and you recruit him again, he takes a very long time to arrive. During this time the citadel can't produce any units. Since PVP's all about spending your money continiously this pretty much breaks the game since you can't afford to lose units during the recruitment time of whichever hero is being produced.

-> In this case I would propose to have heroes produced in the sanctuary. First of all that building is hardly used, but now necessary due to the CP Upgrade, and second to that the Hero-Recruitment could be dragged into that building for the exact same reason as the CP-Upgrade was put into the sanctuary.


4. I also dislike the instant defeat when the Lorien Citadel falls. Baserush and a simple push for one building is becoming a strategy vs Lorien which is rather stupid, especially in a game where units clumped around buildings are very hard to counter, even with a bigger force.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 12. Feb 2020, 14:21
Refuge in the woods is getting substantial nerfs to its healing power and a minor redesign for 4.5.1 that should make offensive uses (as in "I'll put this right in front of your base") nearly impossible.

Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Aiphaton am 12. Feb 2020, 14:40
And adding the effect to the central spell isn't an option?

Right now the benefits of that spell are rather low and I'd see a similar solution like the one I proposed as quite interesting.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Feb 2020, 15:24
I, too, find myself not particularly fond of the faction's central spell, to be honest. It may be that I don't pay much attention to its inherent, strategic value (balance-wise), but I'm quite of the opinion that having two spells work very similarly, and summon enchanted trees which aim to benefit your troops on the ground, might be a conceptual repetition that we can easily do without.

Imbuing the current grand tree with healing properties, along with other bonuses of the case, could solve this sort of doubling of magic-natured vegetation spells. Refuge in the Wood would thereby have to go and be replaced by something else, whereas Elven Wood might be given more prominence as a result, being said feature supposed to embody the real soul/incantation seething across the realm of the Golden Wood.

As a necessary trade-off, a so beneficial tool will no longer be exempted from the risk of facing destruction by enemy hands, which makes it far closer in fashion to buildings than otherwise. Just my loose thoughts, anyway. I would be very glad to go through the matter a little bit deeper, if someone were down to it, of course.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Smeargollum am 12. Feb 2020, 16:06
Hello everyone!
I agree with you, Aiphaton, that the "refuge in the woods" spell is too strong atm. (I know that Elendil worte that it is nerfed for the next version, but anyways) I would't like it to put the healing in the central spell, but instead I would like it if the "refuge in the woods" spell doesn't give you any buff and just heals you units when they are out of combat and you can only place it near your own buildings.
Furthermore I would like it when the central spell would give you a slight buff, like the one AIphaton suggested for the other tree spell (+20% armor) so you have an "easier usage of this spell.
About the arrow volles I am realy unsure what to think about it and I don't want to say anything about it before I haven't tested it more.
Putting the heroes in the sancutry sounds intresting to me, but I don't know if it is realy nessesary, as you can build units and heroes at the same time, when you have enough money. Still I can't see a reason not to do it so I like it  :D

Walküre, I would be intrested in any kind of concept of your that might improve the uniqueness of the spells in the Lorien spell book.  :)
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Max_Power am 12. Feb 2020, 17:31
Hi Everyone! While it is a bit early to really discuss balance, but I agree with Aiphaton's post. Lets go through it in order:
1. Refugee in the woods (as Elendil said, it is going to be rebalanced, NOICE  (**)). I would emphasize that it should be destroyable for all factions (although there was a very strong reason for it being different, which I cannot think of right now).

2. The arrowvolley: I actually like the spell as it is now, but due to our beloved engine, the cast time overlaps with the off-host delay, resulting in almost impossible dodge timing. A very slight delay (less than a second) should suffice to reward a quick-reaction player that presses "x" or "r" in due time. That, or maybe reduce a bit the radius.

3. Right now, some buildings are packed with functions (upgrades, troop production, eco upgrades, pantries, etc etc). While it is interesting and certainly adds to each faction uniqueness, I wonder if it would be possible to allow Lorien to produce units while heros are being produced, either by moving hero or unit production to other building, or tweaking the citadel to avoid blocking. Mostly, because it is the only faction subject to this limits, and I don't see any reason why lorien, balancewise, should be blocked from troop production when producing (and specially reviving) a hero. It is not like their heros are stronger, and unlike other factions, Lorien is not capable of having more than one barracks (other than using an outpost, which is another topic).

4. Agreed.

MaxPower :D

Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Éomer Éadig am 11. Feb 2021, 09:11
Hi all,

I concur that it would be good to be able to recruit units and heroes simultaneously from the citadel. This is possible if you click the unit first, and the hero second, but not the other way around. It would be nice if this were possible.

Furthermore, I would like to suggest two small changes.

1. One would be that beornings in bear form do not trample trees, as it removes cover for the Lothlórien and Mirkwood units, and hampers them in using their abilities.

2. The other that ents are able to knock down trolls, as they were in the first game. Right now, a single, unarmored troll can take out any ent (that includesTreebeard) in a one v one, simply due to their higher attack speed. Since ents are slower, more expensive, and ought to be stronger (lore-wise), I would like it if they could knock down trolls.

I hope you will take my thought into consideration,
Éomer Éadig
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 11. Feb 2021, 09:47
The recruitment priority is not something that can be changed sadly.

1). I agree

2). I would be interested to know more about the context of the game in which you saw this happen. In my isolated test, both the Ent and Treebeard won when their fight against a troll. The troll only managed to win when it out levelled them.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Birds am 11. Feb 2021, 09:56
1) Not Trampeling trees would be nice, though i don't see it as a big problem.

2) As Mordor it can be tricky to counter ents, since orc pikes arent upgraded and you almost never see firearrows. Making it more difficult for trolls to fight them doesn't make much sense to me.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Éomer Éadig am 20. Feb 2021, 11:12
The recruitment priority is not something that can be changed sadly.

1). I agree

2). I would be interested to know more about the context of the game in which you saw this happen. In my isolated test, both the Ent and Treebeard won when their fight against a troll. The troll only managed to win when it out levelled them.

I have now checked the 1v1 of an ent and an unarmoured troll and indeed, the ent did win it with just  a sliver of health left. It seems that I did not test extensively enough before, apologies.

I do still believe that an ent should have a larger advantage though, since recruiting one requires you to first build an ent moot on a settlement, which is harder to defend and maintain (cost: 700), recruit Treebeard (cost:2000) and then the ent itself (cost:1200), whereas getting a troll for Mordor requires a troll cage (in the base, cost: 800) and then a troll itself (cost: 800, possibly lower with slaughterhouses). Add to that the fact that a troll is a lot faster as well, and I feel like it should not be such a close fight. Lore-wise, an ent should also be a lot stronger.

I have not tested an ent against an armoured troll yet, but I do believe that the troll would win that handily. As for Mordor's counters against ents, I believe two orc pikes should suffice, no?

Greetings,
Éomer Éadig
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Smeargollum am 20. Feb 2021, 13:38
You are right that trolls should get demolished by ents from a lore point of view, but I do have to agree with Birds that it would be really hard to counter ents effectively without trolls. Even though against a single ent "two orc pikes should suffice" it is a completely different story when the ent is not alone but brought either some other ent friends or just some normal Lorien swords and pikes. Generally single units get way harder to kill when there are more of them as they can cover each other’s back and stop the pikes from surrounding them. So, you either need really strong pikes or archers with upgrades, which are both lacking for Mordor in most cases, or you need strong single units that can take an Ent head on, like trolls, to counter them.

However, it could be a nice touch if the Ent heroes would be able to knock down trolls, as you suggested, but I think for the normal ents it would be too strong, because the main role of ents is not to be a strong fighting unit but a siege unit.

Another option would be to give the ents an active ability that can knockdown trolls or even heroes for a short period of time.
Titel: Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Halbarad am 20. Feb 2021, 22:18
Zitat
Another option would be to give the ents an active ability that can knockdown trolls or even heroes for a short period of time.

I like the idea, it could also be part of a leadership from Treebeard for Ents and Quickbeam (excluding Ash Ents of course).