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[en] The Prancing Pony => The Lord of the Rings => Thema gestartet von: Walküre am 29. Apr 2015, 16:50

Titel: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 29. Apr 2015, 16:50
This thread was born as a thread related mainly to the BOTFA EE.
As you can behold, I modified it and expanded its topic.

Feel free to express your opinions and to discuss about anything that deals with the Hobbit trilogy, from technical to thematic and conceptual matters  :)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a9/The_Hobbit_trilogy_dvd_cover.jpg)

Let the Journey begin  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 29. Apr 2015, 19:51
I am mainly waiting for more Dain, more Beorn, Thorin's funerals and Dain's corronation. But every extra scene will be gladly enjoyed ! :D (except Alfrid, no more Alfrid ^^)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 29. Apr 2015, 19:58
You are right, Alfrid had enough screen time :) But, actually I read somewhere that we will probably see the scene of his death, caused by an orc or troll.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 29. Apr 2015, 20:09
Actually that drives me full of joy. :D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gnomi am 29. Apr 2015, 21:12
Afaik we will see how he dies - after his small conversation with bard he will try to flee. Thereby he walks over a piece of wood -  but an orc/troll will jump on the other side and he will be catapulted over the whole battlefield... directly into the mouth of a troll, which was specially designed (as the mouth had to be big enough) for this scene...

I must say that I'm happy that this scene was not in the normal movie version. :P
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 29. Apr 2015, 21:43
If this is the actual scene, it would have been enormously grotesque to be seen in cinemas :o

It would have reached the top of over-the-top things  :)
Compared to it, gigantic evil worms, deformed trolls, walking-on-air Legolas and drowned/seaweed-clothed/horror Galadriel are meaningless matters  :D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 29. Apr 2015, 22:17
I am mainly waiting for more Dain, more Beorn, Thorin's funerals and Dain's corronation.

What I am really looking forward to, is obviously the extended sequence of Dol Guldur  :)

The only 'official' thing we know for sure is that, as it is said by Philippa Boyens in the video, there will be a sort of mini subplot about the Three Rings of the Elves and Sauron; he will interrogate the chained Gandalf in Dol Guldur about the keepers of the Three and, then, at the arrival of Galadriel and Elrond, the Three Rings will be openly shown, and, I guess, used  8-)

That will probably lead to a longer fight against the Nine and Sauron; from what I read on the web, Galadriel will confront Sauron before his banishment, speaking in Black Speech, resisiting his temptation and taking the 'ghostly' and bright form that we saw when she orders Radagast to flee with Gandalf from the fortress.
This 'special' form should have been the one that Galadriel would have had, according to the ideas of Philippa Boyens; we can see some of that in this very fast photogram of Galadriel that appears immediately after she has banished Sauron  :)

Angelic Galadriel  (**)

(http://imagegecko.net/upload3/Galadriel%20in%20a%20deep%20white%20light.jpg)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 30. Apr 2015, 09:29
PJ confirmed more Beorn:
http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/the-hobbit/28587/peter-jackson-interview-the-hobbit-48fps-cumberbatch#ixzz2qMBC2e4A (http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/the-hobbit/28587/peter-jackson-interview-the-hobbit-48fps-cumberbatch#ixzz2qMBC2e4A)

Philippa Boyens talked about more things, for instance Three elvish rings or Bofur stuff: http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=42996 (http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=42996)

Richard Armitage concerning funeral and chariot scenes:
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/movies/s225/hannibal/interviews/a644201/richard-armitage-looks-back-on-the-hobbit-and-forward-to-hannibal.html#~pbjTXyECBBktdy (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/movies/s225/hannibal/interviews/a644201/richard-armitage-looks-back-on-the-hobbit-and-forward-to-hannibal.html#~pbjTXyECBBktdy)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 30. Apr 2015, 15:09
I am looking forward mostly to the extended Dol Guldur scenes; what I would most like to see is Gandalf's vision through the palantir, when Sauron will show him his plan to join forces with Smaug (it's in the Art and Design book of BOTFA)  xD
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: bookworm1138 am 24. Mai 2015, 02:46
This is likely a dead horse that has long-since been beaten, but I'm just going to go ahead and give my few cents.

It's hard, going back and watching the Lord of the Rings film trilogy. Jackson and Co. seem so dedicated to the lore and adding so many little details from the books. Then The Hobbit prequel trilogy (intentional Star Wars reference there) comes out and it's, well, all over the place. Personally, I didn't know what to expect, apart from the occasional deviation from the source material, but this?

Here are some things which I found to be the most egregious about The Hobbit in terms of lore and, overall, ludicrousness.

- What they did to the storyline of the War against Angmar, one of my favorite aspects of the Appendices, which even BFME2 managed to do some small modicum of justice. Having the Rangers bury the Witch-king just makes Aragorn's people, and the soldiers of Gondor who came to their aid, really stupid. I mean, we can split hairs and say "but Arnorians are immune to the Black Breath", which I don't buy, but nevertheless, why did they feel the need to bury empty black robes? Why were they not affected by the Black Breath? Why did the Witch-King (and, as we find out in DoS, the other Nazgul) just sit there and let themselves be buried?

[amendment: I looked back on the timeline of the Third Age, and something else doesn't make sense. It is implied in the films that the Nazgul were "raised" recently - though an undead Ringwraith dying, or even pretending to be dead is crazy enough - which makes no sense in regards to the history with Gondor. I mean, if the Witch-King was supposedly dead and buried, how do we explain Minas Morgul? And Earnur (oh wait, i forgot: Legolas says that Isildur was the last king of Gondor. lol, you know nothing, Legolas Greenleaf) was killed by the Witch-King, which ended the line of Kings (obviously that has already happened, and in the extended edition of BotFA, Thranduil references Denethor's father ruling as Steward of Gondor). Why would the Wise be unaware that one of the Nazgul was still alive and actively waging war with Gondor?]

- Radagast. Enough said.

- Why did they recast for the voice of Sauron/the Necromancer? I feel it's only because benedict cumberbatch is famous in geek culture (especially with the female audiences) and, whether seen or not, his name in the credits would fill the seats in the movie theaters.

- Why is Beorn a giant?

- Red-haired she-elf and her romance with handsome Kili (or Fili, which ever one of them). It's unnecessary.

- Speaking of unnecessary, why is PJ trying to ship Gandalf and Galadriel? Isn't she already married to Celeborn?

- Speaking of Galadriel...

(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cBd9gjYefE8/hqdefault.jpg)

This scene, while some might think it cool, makes zero sense to me. Why is Galadriel becoming all scary in this scene? Is it because she's using Nenya? If so, then why is she turning scary-looking? And WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT IN FRONT OF SAURON? Especially since the Three Rings of the Elves were supposed to be HIDDEN! And why is she wielding the Phial of Earendil? Is that what she's using to banish Sauron? If so, why is she turning scary-looking? The Silmarils, from whence the Phial gets its light, are not evil, and I read nowhere that they were ever tainted by Morgoth or Sauron. It just feels like more of PJ making Lothlorien elves (especially Galadriel) scarier than they were in the books.

- Speaking of scary elves, what about zombie Thranduil? That totally comes out of nowhere and is never mentioned ever again.

- Legolas surfing on spiders, orcs, defying gravity, controlling a troll via God of War game mechanics, just being in this movie altogether.

- Bolg's redesign.

- Azog

- The troll with the battering ram helmet, and the one with the spindly spear legs

And last but not least...

- The Dwarves' severe lack of beards.


Feel free to add other things which annoyed, bothered you or was egregious to the lore.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 24. Mai 2015, 12:51
I agree with you 99%  :D
However, I kind of like Benedict Cumberbatch voice for Sauron. I think it was that they couldn't bring back the guy who voiced Sauron in LotR, but Cumberbatch is an amazing alternative!

Other sins:

- The God damn*&@% Eagles!!! It's by far the worst ex machina in movie history ever!! Even Tolkien never used them so cheaply  :-|

- The Dwarves encounter with Smaug (the battle of the forges). Although the action looked freak'n awesome, but it literally makes no sense whatsoever; The whole point of bringing Bilbo is to sneak to the mountain the steal the gem. They were scared to death from Smaug. Why would they ever go YOLO on him!!
and then after the ridiculous golden weapon plan, why would Smaug go to kill the poor lake men. The Dwarves were right under his mercy after their "plan" to entomb him failed.

- The whole Angmar thing makes no sense at all!!
The lonely mountain is the key to control the north??!!! have they ever looked at any map for Middle Earth?! The Lonely Mountain is nowhere near Angmar, nor any major road to Angmar, nor anywhere within a 1000 miles from Angmar!!!!
And if they already have Gundabad (an ancient stronghold and armory of Angmar) where beyond it lays Angmar (as Legolas mentioned) then the Lonely Mountain attack makes no sense cause the Orcs already hold the gate and all lands of Angmar!
And apparently Sauron has lost his mind and abandoned Mordor and the glorious Barad Dur and his coming war on all of Middle Earth to spend even more time and effort to rebuild a barren ice land into an old little kingdom that had served its purpose since more than 500 years ago!

- Not enough Dain!!! *period*.

- Why it's 3 movies!!! (more profit of course  :( )

- Why Azog's army is all Uruks! last time I've checked the Misty Mountains had mostly little Goblins and mutilated filthy orcs, and no fancy Isengard-ish steel armor.
If this same army was at helms deep (with the YOLO Trolls) I grantee that Rohan would have no chance at all  [uglybunti]
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Shagrat am 24. Mai 2015, 12:58
Zitat
- Why Azog's army is all Uruks! last time I've checked the Misty Mountains had mostly little Goblins and mutilated filthy orcs, and no fancy Isengard-ish steel armor.
If this same army was at helms deep (with the YOLO Trolls) I grantee that Rohan would have no chance at all  [uglybunti]
Azogs Army is Dol Guldur, Bolg Leads the Army of Mount Gundabad
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 24. Mai 2015, 13:27
Zitat
Azogs Army is Dol Guldur, Bolg Leads the Army of Mount Gundabad
Seriously? In the movie lore it's said that the Orcs came from Moria and the misty mountains to gather in DolGuldur for the war.
Nonetheless, it still doesn't make any sense whatsoever; why doesn't Sauron make all his armies in this quality in wotr? he would have won the world!
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CynasFan am 24. Mai 2015, 14:16
All this "We are a Prequel for Lord of the Rings". That was just *********!!!
Or in another way of questioning: What was´nt a Sin against Tolkien, Middlearth, the Hobbit book and the Lord of the Ring books or films or against the whole Universe which was so greatefull created by J.R.R. Tolkien?
Greetings, CynasFan
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 24. Mai 2015, 17:15
Talking about Angmar and the Lonely Mountain as the 'key to conquering the North':  there is an interesting theory on what Sauron meant with that, here: http://musingsofatolkienist.blogspot.com/2015/01/gundabad-what-was-that-exactly.html?m=1
Also, about the Nazgul being entombed, they actually have bodies, just invisible ones, and according to the movies, someone put powerful spells on their tombs so that they could not come to life again, or just prevent them from getting out, until Sauron revived them.
Also, talking about the wars with Angmar, I have a thread where a theory is developed on why Elrond said they have been living in Peace for 400 years, on Thranduil's wife's death and some other things, here: http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=855652;sb=post_time;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
Thorin did not have a beard, because, as PJ said in the Art book of AUJ, he cut his beard because he was grieving on the loss of Erebor and his father and grandfather, and he would not grow a beard until Erebor was reclaimed. He was made to look younger because PJ wanted to make the movie viewers believe he could actually have other heirs if he reclaimed Erebor.
About the orcs of Mount Gundabad, they probably held only Gundabad and not the whole of Angmar. Sauron had a strategy on taking Angmar (seen in the first thread I posted a link to), maybe he wanted to reclaim the ruins of Carn Dum, too, and maybe he needed to subdue the orcs at Gundabad in order to make them serve him completely. Another possibility is that some of the local population of Angmar remained there after the Witchking's death, and they would not obey a small army of Gundabad orcs, so Sauron wanted to send most of his armies there to subdue the population (consisting of Men of Carn Dum, orcs, Trolls and possibly some Black Numenorians, that had fled the destruction of the Kingdom). Then he could move to Carn Dum, or choose to remain in Dol Guldur making it his base of operations. He probably chose Angmar over Mordor because there were still some garrisons guarding the Land of Shadow (particularly Minas Morgul, which in movie lore was Minas Ithil, since the Nazgul were dead and could not claim it, and possibly Cirith Ungol), while Angmar was not guarded; and Eriador and Rhovanion were considerably weaker than Gondor and Rohan, so he chose to retake Angmar.
I like most things about the Hobbit movies, but I dislike one thing: the troll that broke the wall of Dale with his head  [uglybunti]
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: (Palland)Raschi am 24. Mai 2015, 17:41
Zitat
Talking about Angmar and the Lonely Mountain as the 'key to conquering the North':  there is an interesting theory on what Sauron meant with that, here: http://musingsofatolkienist.blogspot.com/2015/01/gundabad-what-was-that-exactly.html?m=1

I have just read the link you had posted above and I have to say that this theory which is pointed out there does not really make sense at all.
The theory skips the problem, that Sauron would surely not count on some drawfs and a Hobbit to defeat one of the mightigest Dragons in middle earth.
So what Sauron should have done if those had never tried to recapture the lonely mountain or failed by trying to do so ?
It was almost not possible they would be successful.
But in the end Sauron is supposed to bulid his whole strategy of conquering middle earth on accidents which he noticed recently .
Please this is just absurd.

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 24. Mai 2015, 18:19
Actually he didn't know Smaug would be killed, he thought Azog or later Bolg would stop the Dwarves, and on the map shown in the site Sauron has intended the Lonely Mountain as a stopping point for his armies sent for Angmar, as he had been in league with Smaug as told in DOS EE. But, on their way, the armies of Azog understand Smaug is killed and change tactics: kill the Dwarves, take Erebor, and then march to Angmar, only to hear by Bolg that the Elves have come to the mountain too, sending him to Gundabad.
I know, there are no exact logical theories, but this one seems the most likely to me.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: bookworm1138 am 24. Mai 2015, 18:27
- The Dwarves encounter with Smaug (the battle of the forges). Although the action looked freak'n awesome, but it literally makes no sense whatsoever; The whole point of bringing Bilbo is to sneak to the mountain the steal the gem. They were scared to death from Smaug. Why would they ever go YOLO on him!!
and then after the ridiculous golden weapon plan, why would Smaug go to kill the poor lake men. The Dwarves were right under his mercy after their "plan" to entomb him failed.

I had completely forgotten about that scene (and with good reason, considering how ludicrous it got).

- oh yes, and Alfrid the servant of the Master of Lake-Town  :-|
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 26. Mai 2015, 18:48
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 27. Mai 2015, 17:02
I saw many videos and sites on the Internet that also tell the Necromancer is going to question Gandalf about the bearers of the Three Rings of Power before Galadriel comes, I think maybe in these scenes they will make Gandalf see the vision with Smaug through the palantir  xD.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 27. Mai 2015, 17:13
they will make Gandalf see the vision with Smaug through the palantir  xD.

Just check old threads on Theonering.net - there is a broad concensus that such scene definitely won't be, because doesn't fit there and was supposed to be in DOS after Thrain sequence and before Azog sequence for dramatic effect. ;)

But yes, I would like to see as well. xD
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 27. Mai 2015, 18:22
But why would they include it in the BOTFA Art and Design book if it won't be in the third movie?  8-|
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 27. Mai 2015, 18:40
Also, maybe the Dol Guldur and Laketown scenes are happening at a different time in BOTFA, so Sauron still shows the vision to Gandalf.
Another way is that PJ may make a new prologue for BOTFA in Dol Guldur, with the vision of Smaug  ;)
I doubt PJ will not include this scene in the movie, because this can give Sauron a chance to explain his intentions about Erebor, Angmar, and his 'connection' with Smaug that never were explained much in the movies. And also, because this scene would be awesome :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 28. Mai 2015, 16:59
There is clear evidence - "Thrain" bonus soundtrack for Botfa which was supposed to be in DOS. At the end is music sequence where probably  "Palantir scene" belongs and logically such sequence was completely removed. ;)

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Mai 2015, 18:29
I don't think we will be seeing any sort of scene of that kind in the EE; it was probably an initial idea that was not implemented anymore in the film, even though it would be interesting to see how it could have been portrayed.

But, the real question is, I think, whether the Palantír (the sphere that the angel-like statue of Dol Guldur seems to hold) really exists and is somehow part of the film, or it doesn't, being just a result of the speculations of the fans about a possible scene of Sauron and Saruman together  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 28. Mai 2015, 18:50
Concerning your picture with Gladys after confrontation - yes there is definitely useless cut around two - three seconds. There isn't transformation back to normal form like in the LOTR, but according to soundtrack there is completely the same music sequence.

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 28. Mai 2015, 19:56
Well, I still hold hope that we may see this Smaug palantir scene, somehow  :(
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Mai 2015, 23:14
That picture of Galadriel is just a fast photogram, a tiny and little hint of how Galadriel could have been initially portrayed as a bright and ethereal being.
But we will see, maybe, this interpretation in the extended scene between the 'GO!' of Galadriel and her lying on the ground (it is clearly visible that between the two scenes there is a scene that was completely cut off), in which she will have a dialogue/confrontation with Sauron, speaking in Black Speech :)

Well, I still hold hope that we may see this Smaug palantir scene, somehow  :(

If Sauron will interrogate Gandalf about the Three Rings, he might probably tell Gandalf two or three words about Smaug or his plan  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 28. Mai 2015, 23:24
^^Yeah, he might tell a few words about that, it will be a good enough addition to the last movie. But I think we all want(ed) to see the scene with Smaug through the palantir, in DOS or BOTFA 8-| My last guess (although still not very possible :P) is that maybe we will see this scene in a flashback, like Gandalf tells Radagast or Galadriel what he had seen through the palantir and we see a flashback scene of Smaug, what do you think?
But even if it is not inserted in the Extended Edition of BOTFA, if that scene was filmed, they could release it in the Ultimate Edition PJ was talking about at the San Diego comic-con  :P
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 31. Mai 2015, 17:21


- Speaking of unnecessary, why is PJ trying to ship Gandalf and Galadriel? Isn't she already married to Celeborn?

- Speaking of Galadriel...

(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cBd9gjYefE8/hqdefault.jpg)

This scene, while some might think it cool, makes zero sense to me. Why is Galadriel becoming all scary in this scene? Is it because she's using Nenya? If so, then why is she turning scary-looking? And WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT IN FRONT OF SAURON? Especially since the Three Rings of the Elves were supposed to be HIDDEN! And why is she wielding the Phial of Earendil? Is that what she's using to banish Sauron? If so, why is she turning scary-looking? The Silmarils, from whence the Phial gets its light, are not evil, and I read nowhere that they were ever tainted by Morgoth or Sauron. It just feels like more of PJ making Lothlorien elves (especially Galadriel) scarier than they were in the books.



About Galadriel and Gandalf, I know that there is a general 'shipping mania' on the Internet and among 'geek' fans, as you wrote, but I honestly and personally don't see anything ambiguous between them; they only tried to portray the special relationship that exists between these two great characters, a relationship (let's call it 'platonic interest' or 'friendship' in the deepest sense of the word) that is present and has its reasons also in the almighty and universal lore  :)
Galadriel probably met and knew Olórin (the name of Gandalf in Valinor as a Maia) in Valinor, when she used to attend the Gardens of Lórien of the Vala Irmo during the Years of the Trees, and Olórin was indeed a Maia of the People of Irmo; then, in the Third Age, even though the infinite memories of Gandalf as an angel were concealed in his own mind by the Valar, Galadriel has always had a very deep and special relationship with him, because she already 'knew' him and Gandalf was the only Istar that she completely trusted and appreciated the most, knowing really well his brave and pacific nature and wisdom, the reasons he was sent to Middle Earth by the Valar to contest the power of Sauron, and Gandalf was probably naturally 'benevolent' towards her, because she is the only trace left in Middle Earth of the Light of Valinor.
I think we can say that we have solid evidences of that in the books, when she says that she would have wanted Gandalf at the head of the White Council, when she sings her famous lament for the wizard, and when she shelters him and gives him white clothes after his rebirth in the World  :)
And, speaking about the films, the scenes of the White Council and, especially, the ones of Galadriel and Gandalf together, were very dear to Philippa Boyens and mostly created by her; so, I feel we have to trust her good intentions  :)

Speaking about the appearance of Galadriel in BOTFA, I feel I have written a ton of posts about it both here, on ModDB and Youtube, but this difficult matter doesn't really have an absolute explanation, unless PJ gives us a clear answer  :P
So, instead of writing pages and pages about the pure lore, I will try to answer you according to very film lore and script, because this is the most reasonable way, I think, otherwise we should consider all the Hobbit trilogy as innacurate and wrong :)

1. Let's start with saying that I agree with you, I would have preferred a bright and 'angelic' concept, in line with the nature of Galadriel and her powers :)
And this was, I read, the initial idea of Philippa Boyens, but, as for many other elements of all the Hobbit trilogy, the 'grotesque' view and style of Guillermo del Toro influenced everything and somehow 'forced' PJ's hand to even give the films a general dark, grotesque, ironic and 'creepy' tone, having been him also a director of splatter horror films.
I think, nevertheless, that some traces and hints of the previous concept of Galadriel have still remained and are still visible.
For example, when she orders Radagast to flee from Dol Guldur and goes 'GO!' or when she turns back to her normal form after the banishment of Sauron (a fast photogram).



2. According to the script of the film, the energy and strength of Galadriel were constantly being drained by the evil atmosphere of Dol Guldur and the powers of Sauron, darkening her and her ethereal aura.
She also, during the banishment, takes a form that it's meant to show the connection between her and the Water (Nenya); and that's why, also for the reasons stated in the previous point, that she becomes a ghostly, dark and blue mermaid with seaweed clothes, totally not suitable and in contradiction with the phial she's holding and its meaning, but at the same time, quite cool and interesting.


3. Galadriel taking a dark and terrible form has somehow become a canon of PJ films, even if it is not very much lore accurate; in LOTR, though, she still takes a dark and terrible form, but she's also majestic and beautiful at the same time (as Tolkien describes the scene in the books), the true definition of the 'Sublime'.
She also wears a silver armour, symbolising her royal and fiery nature (I obviously prefer the LOTR concept  :P) :)


4. About the hidden Three Rings and the fact that Galadriel openly shows and uses Nenya, we have to consider that some important scenes of the Dol Guldur sequence were cut off (thing that I didn't like at all).
In the EE we will probably see Sauron interrogating the chained Gandalf about the Three Rings and their bearers, the Three Rings being openly shown and used and a confrontation between Galadriel and Sauron (while Elrond and Saruman are still fighting, after the flight of Gandalf and Radagast) in which Galadriel will take a bright form and will confront Sauron speaking in Black Speech, openly showing and using Nenya.

WETA's concept:

Hope I helped you  :)
Galadriel is my favourite character, can't you tell?  :D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 31. Mai 2015, 18:10
^^Talking about the Extended Edition of BOTFA, let's not forget the supposed (but as thought by many people, unlikely  :( ) scene where Gandalf will see a vision with Smaug in it, through the palantir in the hands of that statue in Dol Guldur (and yes, I know it was first supposed to be in DOS and I know the evidence to that is the later part of the 'Thrain' track from the DOS soundtrack  :P ).
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: shree am 1. Jun 2015, 13:02
If anyone has noticed the scene in which Radagast departs from Dol-guldur the position of Gandalf (on the rabbit sled) is different from the scene where they both spot that Sauron is fled away… not only that… but you all can even notice that he has achieved his HAT as well as his (Glamdring) sword. I think we can see few scenes more in between these two plot… and very hopefully can also see Radagast fighting too.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 1. Jun 2015, 15:33
Yes, it is clearly explained in the YouTube video :)
We will probably see Beorn being tortured in Dol Guldur, and then freed by Gandalf and Radagast, that will be likely to fight a bit.

Honestly, it is a pity that the sequence of Dol Guldur was severely cut; with all these elements it would have been a greater sequence of action, fight and Magic :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: shree am 2. Jun 2015, 14:14
Can anyone explain me about the Morgul blade story, I was kind of excited for it. Last time we saw the blade was in Rivendell, and all of a sudden we see the blade in the hand of Witch King again in the Dol Guldur attack. I hope they explain this part in EE.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Jun 2015, 09:43
Can anyone explain me about the Morgul blade story, I was kind of excited for it. Last time we saw the blade was in Rivendell, and all of a sudden we see the blade in the hand of Witch King again in the Dol Guldur attack. I hope they explain this part in EE.

I don't think that we will see something about the Morgul blade in the EE, it was probably an initial mini subplot that was not included later in the films.
But it is not certain, it depends if there will be extended scenes of the confrontation between Elrond and Saruman and the Ringwraiths.


Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 4. Jun 2015, 18:15
Interesting news. :) https://twitter.com/DougAdamsMusic/status/606434353225211904 (https://twitter.com/DougAdamsMusic/status/606434353225211904)
It means that Extended editon for Botfa is more or less ready.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Jun 2015, 20:27
Good news  8-)
Even Galadriel is very happy, can't you tell?  :P

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/4/3141/3140794/thumb_620x2000/Galadriel_in_BOTFA.jpg)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: shree am 5. Jun 2015, 08:36
http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2014/06/22/90301-hobbit-3-fact-sheet-what-do-we-actually-know-about-the-hobbit-the-battle-of-the-five-armies/#morgulblade
 
Actually I researched a little about this topic and found a site (above) and there is a possibility of a scene in which Elrond is seen casting the blade into the Witch-King’s tomb. I hope such a scene is seen in the EE. This will elaborate more about the story.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 25. Jun 2015, 22:05
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 26. Jun 2015, 00:22
I'm sure the scene of the funeral and tribute of Thorin will be very moving and emotional  :)
And, also, we might be able to see what it will be of the Arkenstone and Thorin's royal armour.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 14. Jul 2015, 23:10
Zitat
When they part in An Unexpected Journey, Galadriel makes Gandalf a promise: ‘If you should ever need my help. I will come.’ She fulfills that promise in The Battle of Five Armies when, at Dol Guldur, the Wizard confronts the Necormancer.
As in The Fellowship of the Ring, the filmmakers opted to explore, once more, a surprising aspect in Galadriel’s character. ‘It’s almost,” says Cate, ‘as if you cannot have good without the threat of it being challenged and even taken over to the dark side, as if you can only know shadow when you know light. Peter wanted to give a shadow to Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings, and he really went there in The Hobbit. He referred to it as ‘psychic distress’, that sense of a war within, that internal battle between one’s dark side and one’s better self. In coming to Gandalf’s aid, Galadriel has to grapple with the seductive power of the Necromancer to draw other beings into a void of darkness, despair, and decay. She has to summon every particle of her strength to resist and, in doing so, we see Galadriel’s incredible power and realize that -but for the finesse and strength of her spirit - how quickly that power for goodness could be turned to evil.’
An astonishing moment in Galadriel’s struggle with the Necromancer is when she uses the language of the enemy. ‘Unlike Elvish,’ says Cate, ‘Black Speech is thick, harsh, and very gruttal. It’s completely unexpected and shocking that such a sound would ever emerge from her mouth…"

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Jul 2015, 23:30
Zitat

''An astonishing moment in Galadriel’s struggle with the Necromancer is when she uses the language of the enemy. ‘Unlike Elvish,’ says Cate, ‘Black Speech is thick, harsh, and very gruttal. It’s completely unexpected and shocking that such a sound would ever emerge from her mouth…"


This is what everyone is dying to see  8-)
And what I was dying to see in the cinema, if only the scene wasn't cut out from the film.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 15. Jul 2015, 15:51
well i hope in the extended version there is some nice stuf  from the books
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: (Palland)Raschi am 15. Jul 2015, 16:39
@ Gandalf The Gray: Just a hint of mine; your banner pic is too big. You should adjust it accoording to the bulletin board rules. Otherwise banners would disturb the reading fluency.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 15. Jul 2015, 16:46
well i hope in the extended version there is some nice stuf  from the books

Definitely  :)
There will probably be space for Dáin's coronation and Thorin's burial ceremony.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Jul 2015, 00:59
@ Gandalf The Gray: Just a hint of mine; your banner pic is too big. You should adjust it accoording to the bulletin board rules. Otherwise banners would disturb the reading fluency.
is it ok now
???
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gnomi am 16. Jul 2015, 08:43
Zitat von: Forum Rules
( http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30385.0.html )
4. A signature may contain two pictures at most, which together should not exceed 600x200 pixels and 300 kb in size. That means, for example, that you may have one banner in 600x150 and one in 600x50, or two at 600x100 each, or any other combination that does not exceed the limit. In addition, the signature may contain text, but that should not be used to lengthen it to extreme proportions.
[4. A signature may contain two pictures at most, which together should not exceed 600x200 pixels and 300 kb in size. That means, for example, that you may have one banner in 600x150 and one in 600x50, or two at 600x100 each, or any other combination that does not exceed the limit. In addition, the signature may contain text, but that should not be used to lengthen it to extreme proportions.

Therefore no. It's still bigger than 600*200^^
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Jul 2015, 20:59
A more detailed fan video of the possible extended scenes about the Battle of Five Armies, Thorin's funeral ceremony and Dáin's coronation  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-4YILsPq20

 
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 28. Jul 2015, 15:24
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 28. Jul 2015, 18:28
I am really waiting and hope to see more battle scenes from Dain and Thranduil!The Funeral of Thorin,Fili and Kili and a Coronation of Dain,and also the Ram Cavalry,War  Chariots and Iron Ballistas from IRon Hills they all will look epic and make the Battle more grand!
I think there were too much humor and unneded scenes with Alfrid which couold have been spended on more important events and characters lets hoep EE will fix that to some degree and deliver us a more "finishing" finale!Also I would be glad to see more Battle with the Necromancer by Galadriel and Co.(I wish Gandalf and Radagasd would have fought too :( )
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 28. Jul 2015, 18:33
Actors,sounds and even some scenes were great!I will summorize the sins and it is more likely one very BIG SIN!It is called PLOT CHANGES,simply too much Plot Changes from the Books and too much comedy in the ThirdPart which was too short and without a proper Ending! :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 28. Jul 2015, 18:33
about the battle with the nazgul and sauron i waited for it for so long and when i saw it well i was a lil bit i was disappointed
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Jul 2015, 18:35

I think there were too much humor and unneded scenes with Alfrid which couold have been spended on more important events and characters lets hoep EE will fix that to some degree and deliver us a more "finishing" finale!Also I would be glad to see more Battle with the Necromancer by Galadriel and Co.(I wish Gandalf and Radagasd would have fought too :( )

I'm sure we will all be satisfied with the final outcome.
There will be also some space for the Three Rings, and, thus, also for Elrond  :P

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 28. Jul 2015, 18:40
Well I doubt we all we get what we want!But still I hope to fix it to some degree!IT was too little Battle of Five Armie and too much Alfrid and Battle of Tohrin and Legolas!! And Dain and Thranduil were forgotten like they are nobody :(
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Jul 2015, 18:47
Well I doubt we all we get what we want!But still I hope to fix it to some degree!IT was too little Battle of Five Armie and too much Alfrid and Battle of Tohrin and Legolas!! And Dain and Thranduil were forgotten like they are nobody :(

Yes, the focus on the Battle (the title of the film by the way  8-|) gradually faded, to leave space for the 'emotional struggles' of every character...
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 28. Jul 2015, 18:51
I think there were too much Emotional Struggle especially involving Dard  and his plus 2 Family :D It called BoFA for a reson,not "The Emotional Drama of every  Character(and some Battle) ":D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 28. Jul 2015, 19:24
i think there is toooooooo much (https://www.google.gr/search?q=crowley+gif+feelings&biw=1252&bih=614&tbm=isch&imgil=qNfWmaasaqCzQM%253A%253Bxxl0IyS2B9SRWM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fallthesupernaturalgifs.tumblr.com%25252Fpage%25252F2&source=iu&pf=m&fir=qNfWmaasaqCzQM%253A%252Cxxl0IyS2B9SRWM%252C_&usg=__5yVNCht-j2Tnw7qs69_RVgHsCWs%3D&ved=0CCgQyjdqFQoTCJyZ-OSn_sYCFUjrFAodmYsN7g&ei=gra3VZzQE8jWU5mXtvAO#imgrc=qNfWmaasaqCzQM%3A&usg=__5yVNCht-j2Tnw7qs69_RVgHsCWs%3D)tauriel and kili rly PJ
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 28. Jul 2015, 19:42
Forgot that too!I do not mind Tauriel as a Chacracter but the whole Love Triangle and love between Dwarf and Elf was too forced,un true and not needed! :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Jul 2015, 19:49
Forgot that too!I do not mind Tauriel as a Chacracter but the whole Love Triangle and love between Dwarf and Elf was too forced,un true and not needed! :)

Yes, kind of  :)
But I always liked Tauriel from the start, the way she gets involved in fights like a ninja and starts massacring Orcs  xD


I am very happy that she will be part of Lothlórien  (**)

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/11/10679/thumb_620x2000/tauriel_1404122171.jpg)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 28. Jul 2015, 19:59
well i do not mind her as a character i like her style but love tauriel elf + kili dwarf cant happen dwarf dose not even like creamy skin  and the lack of hair https://youtu.be/9LDJzksLB_0?t=5m32s

and i think this is funny https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUrJdsN_-B0
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: bookworm1138 am 28. Jul 2015, 20:26
Forgot that too!I do not mind Tauriel as a Chacracter but the whole Love Triangle and love between Dwarf and Elf was too forced,un true and not needed! :)
I am very happy that she will be part of Lothlórien  (**)

Off topic, but I'm more excited for an affordable Galadriel (5000 is much better than the 10000/9000 she is in the standard BfME2 game) with varied spells and abilities (which might also have to do with the fact that Cate Blanchett and I have birthdays on the same day)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Jul 2015, 20:34

Off topic, but I'm more excited for an affordable Galadriel (5000 is much better than the 10000/9000 she is in the standard BfME2 game) with varied spells and abilities (which might also have to do with the fact that Cate Blanchett and I have birthdays on the same day)

Really interesting fact  :)
By the way, BFME2 Galadriel was obviously too OP, since she was unlockable via the One Ring, and had a formidable primary attack with the enormous tornado  xD
Anyway, if you want to discuss about Galadriel, I suggest you PM personally TiberiusOgden (as a Moderator) to create a new thread about her, or modify the already existing ones to enable a general discussion about her concept  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: bookworm1138 am 28. Jul 2015, 20:38
about the battle with the nazgul and sauron i waited for it for so long and when i saw it well i was a lil bit i was disappointed

I know, right? It was like, why were they suddenly these see-through bad-guys who flashed whenever they were hit, like some early 90s side-scrolling arcade game?
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 28. Jul 2015, 20:42
about the battle with the nazgul and sauron i waited for it for so long and when i saw it well i was a lil bit i was disappointed

I know, right? It was like, why were they suddenly these see-through bad-guys who flashed whenever they were hit, like some early 90s side-scrolling arcade game?
cant agree more
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 28. Jul 2015, 20:44
It was like, why were they suddenly these see-through bad-guys who flashed whenever they were hit, like some early 90s side-scrolling arcade game?
Exactly my thoughts. xD
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 1. Aug 2015, 00:42
Zitat
if you want to discuss about Galadriel, I suggest you PM personally TiberiusOgden (as a Moderator) to create a new thread about her, or modify the already existing ones to enable a general discussion about her concept  ;)

What he said :p
Please guys try to stay on topic here. And you know, Tiberius isn't the only moderator around here ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 1. Aug 2015, 01:10
Zitat
if you want to discuss about Galadriel, I suggest you PM personally TiberiusOgden (as a Moderator) to create a new thread about her, or modify the already existing ones to enable a general discussion about her concept  ;)

What he said :p
Please guys try to stay on topic here. And you know, Tiberius isn't the only moderator around here ;)

You are right, I'm sorry  :)
I mention Tiberius because he is generally the one who deals with this type of matters in the Edain Mod sections and not here; but I totally know that you are one of the sustaining pillars of the International Community  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 5. Aug 2015, 17:42
1) Botfa EE is the first Middle Earth movie to be rated R.


2) We will able to see Extended edition in the cinema (all three extended editions).


3) And last Hobbit movie will have only 19 additional minutes.

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 5. Aug 2015, 18:07
19 minutes? Seriously PJ? 8-| 8-|
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 5. Aug 2015, 18:20
Seriously PJ? 8-| 8-|
Seriously, sadness and grief came to Middle - earth forums which I've checked. :(

By the way - even Jurassic World has "PG13" and not "R" rating. :o

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 5. Aug 2015, 19:25
1) Botfa EE is the first Middle Earth movie to be rated R.


2) We will able to see Extended edition in the cinema (all three extended editions).


3) And last Hobbit movie will have only 19 additional minutes.


Absolutely mixed feelings.

Probably the surprising rated R rating could mean that PJ will be really serious and 'heavy' about the Battle or Beorn in Dol Guldur.
But 19 minutes are totally not enough, for a film that has already been cut heavily.

Not to mention that the possibilities of satisfying additional scenes of the White Council and the Three Rings get seriously smaller  :(
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 5. Aug 2015, 19:31
Probably the surprising rated R rating could mean that PJ will be really serious and 'heavy' about the Battle
He talked about it in this interview:

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 5. Aug 2015, 21:15
Well I hear that there will be some replaced scenes with which we can get around those 30 min of new footage!I wish it was longer there is os much cool stuff that can be seen! :(
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 5. Aug 2015, 21:17
I hear that there will be some replaced scenes with which we can get around those 30 min of new footage
Yes, replaced - it's possible, but it does not mean that there will be additional footage, but only replaced footage, but the length will be the same.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 5. Aug 2015, 21:39
Well I hear that there will be some replaced scenes with which we can get around those 30 min of new footage!I wish it was longer there is os much cool stuff that can be seen! :(

I don't care, everything rather than other Alfrid's useless footage, apart from his grotesque death by the hand of an Orc/Troll/Half Troll or another grotesque creature from PJ's fantasy  ;)

(You can find one of his numerous grotesque creations below this post  :P)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 6. Aug 2015, 04:05
i just wanna see some stufs from the book you know PJ put so many stufs in the movie that was not from the books ok i undestand that but why cut the scenes from the funeral and dains coronation
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 6. Aug 2015, 10:19
19 minutes!?  :o
Well, atleast I hope these scenes will be included in the EE of BOTFA:
- Interogation about the Three Rings by Sauron, more scenes of Galadriel and Dol Guldur overall
- The Palantir vision scene (yes, I still like to think it can get included)
- Alfrid's death (this scene I want to see the least)
- Bilbo planting the acorn in Dale
- Thorin's burial
- Dain's coronation
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 6. Aug 2015, 12:45
I'm so mad... 19 minutes ... that is way too short to fix everything there is to be fixed in that movie  :-|
Hopefully there won't be another Alfrid scene.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 6. Aug 2015, 20:39
I think that this link provides quite reliable information about EE, because they worked primarily with the main trailer and with spoilers from moviemakers:

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 6. Aug 2015, 20:52
I think that this link provides quite reliable information about EE, because they worked primarily with the main trailer and with spoilers from moviemakers:



Very exhaustive and complete summary  :)

Zitat
Was this simply a work-in-progress image before the final result? Or is there more to the Galadriel/Sauron confrontation?

I would say that there is definitely more, but it's not clear if they are willing to include it...

Given all these possible scenes and the officially-announced 19 minutes, I sincerely hope that all our wishes will be fulfilled, if many of these elements will be included by reworking the already existing scenes of the theatrical version.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 6. Aug 2015, 21:21
PJ listened to the fans and decided to cut every single Alfrid scene. ;) No other explanation. :D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 6. Aug 2015, 21:31
PJ listened to the fans and decided to cut every single Alfrid scene. ;) No other explanation. :D

But he certainly needs a horrifically cruel and grotesque, I mean a worthy death/end  :P
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 6. Aug 2015, 23:29
PJ listened to the fans and decided to cut every single Alfrid scene. ;) No other explanation. :D

But he certainly needs a horrifically cruel and grotesque, I mean a worthy death/end  :P
agree xD xD xD xD xD
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 9. Aug 2015, 13:34
Scene of 2 sec is enough for some troll to smash him ;) :D :D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Aug 2015, 14:14
Scene of 2 sec is enough for some troll to smash him ;) :D :D

Yes, I think it will be fair enough  ;)

Alfrid is just like a failed attempt to create a counterpart of Gríma Wormtongue in the Hobbit trilogy; Gríma, in his own viciousness, is absolutely a far greater character.
Just like Hilda is a failed attempt to create a counterpart of Éowyn  :D
I seriously doubt she would be able to cut a fell beast's head and personally challenge the Witch-king  :)

Éowyn is unreachable, she is the embodiment of Courage  8-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 10. Aug 2015, 14:52
What you say is absolutely true! :) But the other true thing is the fact that creatingthose counterpart and giving so much time to them is simply pointless and waste of precious time! :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 10. Aug 2015, 19:21
What you say is absolutely true! :) But the other true thing is the fact that creatingthose counterpart and giving so much time to them is simply pointless and waste of precious time! :)

You are totally right, it was also a kind of waste of time, since The Hobbit and LOTR have obviously a different plot, in which these two characters (Alfrid and Hilda) could naturally have never had the possibility to fully develop their role.

The Three Rings and the White Council should have totally deserved more  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 10. Aug 2015, 20:49
Exactly as you say Walkure!!There are so more better stuff to be shown and developed!PJ just ruined his Movies with those two and with the whole Love Triangle thing!! :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Aug 2015, 00:37
Exactly as you say Walkure!!There are so more better stuff to be shown and developed!PJ just ruined his Movies with those two and with the whole Love Triangle thing!! :)

The Love Triangle was really a bad choice, also because they didn't naturally manage to develop decently this aspect of the plot, ending up just showing a heavily watered down love story between an Elf and a Dwarf  8-|

But the positive thing is, I think, unlike ranks and ranks of Tolkien purists (or just very skilled cinematography fans and lovers  :P), that I really liked from the beginning the addition of Tauriel as a completely new character.
And I'm also very glad that she will be part of Lothlórien in the game  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 14. Aug 2015, 01:20

agree and wee lost so many scenes that could be in the movie dains coronation the faking funeral and i wanted to see more galadriel vs sauron
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 16. Aug 2015, 16:33
Exactly as you say Walkure!!There are so more better stuff to be shown and developed!PJ just ruined his Movies with those two and with the whole Love Triangle thing!! :)

The Love Triangle was really a bad choice, also because they didn't naturally manage to develop decently this aspect of the plot, ending up just showing a heavily watered down love story between an Elf and a Dwarf  8-|

But the positive thing is, I think, unlike ranks and ranks of Tolkien purists (or just very skilled cinematography fans and lovers  :P), that I really liked from the beginning the addition of Tauriel as a completely new character.
And I'm also very glad that she will be part of Lothlórien in the game  ;)
I am no purist and I like both Movies and Books each is great i ntheri own way!But the last Movie was good it just could have been great and much better!
I too like the adding of Tauriel she is good character and I do not mind Legolas being there it is only natural for him to be in his Kingdom next to his father!But the Love Triangle was pointless and not reasonable,and Legolas should have  had smaller role than rather being a star and taking so much screen time from a characters who deserved more! :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Aug 2015, 12:07

I am no purist and I like both Movies and Books each is great i ntheri own way!But the last Movie was good it just could have been great and much better!
I too like the adding of Tauriel she is good character and I do not mind Legolas being there it is only natural for him to be in his Kingdom next to his father!But the Love Triangle was pointless and not reasonable,and Legolas should have  had smaller role than rather being a star and taking so much screen time from a characters who deserved more! :)

I certainly didn't mean, Dáin, that everyone who didn't like Tauriel was necessarily a petulant purist or a boring cinematography fan (also because the cinematography fans had indeed valid reasons to be concerned, about the deep plot's construction of the Hobbit trilogy), but the fiercest and heaviest 'attacks' came mainly from these two categories, with obvious and understandable considerations  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 17. Aug 2015, 15:35
I know you didn't mean that I am purist my friend! :) I just stated out that I am not one and am more openmided over all but still Icare a lot ofr the lore :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Aug 2015, 01:38
I know you didn't mean that I am purist my friend! :) I just stated out that I am not one and am more openmided over all but still Icare a lot ofr the lore :)

Actually, apart from the infamous Love Triangle, Tauriel is indeed, I think, a very lore accurate character  :)
But, as in many other passages of the LOTR and the Hobbit trilogy, the references to the lore are very deep and kind of 'cryptic'.

Tauriel is an Elf of Mirkwood, she serves loyally her Realm and, as an immortal being, she has lived in Middle Earth for more than a century.
She is not satisfied, though, with her life, she doesn't always share and support Thranduil's orders and dispositions, and she is really amazed by all the Magic of the free but dangerous Middle Earth, deeply wishing to leave sometimes the closed borders of her Realm.

These traits of her character are fundamental  :)
The Wood Elves of Mirkwood are, as Tolkien says, less wise and more dangerous, definitely the most rustic and less-developed Elven People in Middle Earth, still conserving their 'ethereal' aura of Elves.
The Kingdom of Mirkwood, by the time of the Hobbit, had already started a policy of almost complete Isolation from the rest of Middle Earth for more than a Millennium, closing the ties even to Lothlórien.
That's why, after more than 1000 years, the Wood Elves of Mirkwood barely knew anything about the other realms of the World, and most importantly of Lothlórien itself; the magical Golden Wood had already become for them a mysterious and mystical place, and the source of that incredible Magic, Galadriel, an element of their legends  8-)
Legolas, in the books, refers clearly to these facts, when he enters, full of Wonder, the borders of Lothlórien with the Fellowship  :)

That's why Tauriel is constantly attracted and loves all the incredible elements and parts of the wide and mysterious World in which she lives, hoping to break from the isolation of her Realm, imposed by Thranduil.

Ok, I recognise they may be too deep and cryptic references to detect, but that's how, I think, everything is connected  ;)

Tauriel is indeed a beautiful character.
Every form of criticism is obviously and always legitimate (and her role has many flaws), but, maybe, instead of immediately bashing her always and everywhere, someone might try to reflect a bit more intensively about the connection between her and Middle Earth (even if she is a completely fictional character of the Hobbit trilogy)  :)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/49/EvangelineLillyAsTauriel.jpg)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 20. Aug 2015, 20:03
I've just found completely new and official concept art from Dol Guldur. ;)

Images:


Text:

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 20. Aug 2015, 20:28

This is really SUPERB  (**)
Thank you, Tiberius  :)

The presence/Magic of Galadriel indeed influences all the surrounding things, being it an enormously mighty kind of Magic, coming from another Land and from other Ancient Times; as the presence of the Valar makes Aman immortal and eternally joyful  8-)

Honestly, these pictures make me a bit more confident in the outcome of the EE of the Battle of Dol Guldur.
We might see, then, a longer version of the entrance of Galadriel in the Dark Fortress, and all the effects that she causes  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 20. Aug 2015, 22:11
It most certainly will be nice and awesoem to see that!I really hope to see more extended clash in DG between the Lady of Light and the Dark Lord! :) It will be EPIC,and only if they have used her Light Blessed Form for that encounter! :(
P.S. I am looking forward to the Second Dwarven Army of Dain too...I hope that it will be as epic as in the Trailers! :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 21. Aug 2015, 00:11
It most certainly will be nice and awesoem to see that!I really hope to see more extended clash in DG between the Lady of Light and the Dark Lord! :)


True  :)
Galadriel enters Dol Guldur and confronts Sauron, her Nemesis in the World for many centuries, but, especially, in the Third Age.
This is absolutely something that surely happened rarely in the History of Arda.
Clashes between great armies are epic, but I personally find more sensational two 'Titans' like Galadriel and Sauron directly confronting each other, mightier than hosts, armies and ranks of soldiers; as Light against Darkness, as the memory of Valinor (and the Two Trees) against the nightmare of Utumno.

I sincerely still have hope that a quite satisfying version of the Battle of Dol Guldur will be made, because there is so much involved in a relatively short part of the film (Galadriel, Sauron, Elrond, the Three Rings and the Istari).

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 21. Aug 2015, 15:24
And here is a kinda of fanmade Trailer of BoFA EE it look sre ally nice and has some good hints! :)
And the even better news are that soon we can expect an OFFICIAL BoFA EE Trailer which will be long around 2:37! :)
And I hvae heard a rumor that we may get another cuted scene with Thrain II and even some changed scenes! :) Can't wait to see all the good stuff in the EE,at least I hope that they will be good! :D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Aug 2015, 01:05
And here is a kinda of fanmade Trailer of BoFA EE it look sre ally nice and has some good hints! :)


This is the video Dáin is talking about  :)

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 22. Aug 2015, 06:39
Thank you Walkure,damn my smartphone I thought the link was there!!:@ My apologize to all! :-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 22. Aug 2015, 08:59
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Fingolfin,Hoher König der Noldor am 26. Aug 2015, 09:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awxBUbZQVKE&feature=youtu.be

And here it comes ;).
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 26. Aug 2015, 10:06

And here it comes ;).

Oh, I see  :)
There are also some actual extended scenes in the trailer as well.

Thank you Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, for having shared this with us  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 26. Aug 2015, 10:59
Looks promising enough. :) Too bad it is only 19 minutes...  xD
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 26. Aug 2015, 11:00
Looks promising enough. :) Too bad it is only 19 minutes...  xD

Please, do not remind me of it  :D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 26. Aug 2015, 11:35
It look s that even though only 20 Minutes but they will be full of pure epicness!I hoep we see much more Battle! :)
Such epic scene with Dain standing like a boss and his Thousand Ram Riders Cavalry descend on the Elves!!And Those Aweseom Ballsitast Destroying like few Thousand Elven Arrows in once!! OMG !!!Iron Hills Army is unbeatable!!!
Lets hope we will see enough to make  BoFA what it should be!! :)

Here is for all who wonder how the Dwarven Ballista Arrows stoped the Elven Arows!Thats at least my logical explnation from whe we have seen till now! :)
Well it seem to be something like Anti-Arrow Net created from something like a whip runing trough the lenght of the Ballista Arrow( http://i.imgur.com/lUrr4Sf.jpg ) and when Fired it begins to spin and takes down the Arrows!Thats what I see from previous Trailer Pics and this for know I think that is it! It is natural for the Dwarves to search and create something to take out the biggest advantage the Elves have over them and that is te Archery and as we know dwarves are one of the best engeneers! :)

As you see by the trajectory it swings around the Arrow and combined all those other Ballista Arrows create somethink like Wall before the Elven Arrows! :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 26. Aug 2015, 15:53
Haha, this looks amazing, it seems that Iron Hills were really prepared to crush Wooden elves, Thranduil wasn't aware of this. Also this is proof that PJ really cared about dwarves and their representation in this movie (Yea those soldier models are great! :) :P).
That idea about anti arrow balista is amazing, I am speechless. :P :D

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 26. Aug 2015, 16:06
Agree Crag my friend!For first time PJ or someone who creates this sort of things to care more for the Dwarves and theri presentation more than that of the Elves or Man! :)
I think PJ and WETA made excellent work with all those Models and Machines!
Iron Hills is showen as it should be the stroget Dwarven Kingdom of its time and the strognest Kongdom of Free People in the Northeast in terms of Millitary Strengh!
P.S.As much as I lvoe Thnraduil and his Kingdom(begin my Favourite Elven Kingdom ever) they didnt have a chance against Dain and his Army! And it looks we will get more than 20min it says "20min of new and extended scenes" which means we can get new scenes as well as cahnged old ones and on of them for Example may be the Arrival of Dain as seen in the Trailer!? :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 26. Aug 2015, 19:31
Such epic scene with Dain standing like a boss and his Thousand Ram Riders Cavalry descend on the Elves!!And Those Aweseom Ballsitast Destroying like few Thousand Elven Arrows in once!! OMG !!!Iron Hills Army is unbeatable!!!


And I suppose that this was the main reason that made you enjoy the trailer: seeing the Elves put in their place  :D

But, remember, they are Wood Elves from Mirkwood, less wise and more dangerous...
Very different from the Elven Kindred of the High Elves of the West  :)

Haha, this looks amazing, it seems that Iron Hills were really prepared to crush Wooden elves, Thranduil wasn't aware of this. Also this is proof that PJ really cared about dwarves and their representation in this movie (Yea those soldier models are great! :) :P).
That idea about anti arrow balista is amazing, I am speechless. :P :D


Yes, as if the Dwarves really knew who they were going to challenge.
Too bad that Galadriel could have blocked that wall of arrows herself alone, creating a magical barrier  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 26. Aug 2015, 21:07
I liked a lot of scenes but I simply thing this one was quire dramatic enrance of Dain that might get changed! :)
And I do not think Elves should be puted in any kind of place :D Elves are a great Race and Worthy opponent and the Dwarves having chance of defeating them just isays a lot about  the Dwarven Army! :)
The Dwarve knew they are going against Elven Army from Mirkwood and even if they didn't knew I think those Ballistas would ahve stoped pretty well the Orc Arrow even easier since they were able to stop the Elven ones! :)
And lets do not start an anicent agumant abotu Elves VS Dwarves! :)
The first Elves were PERFECT killing Machines created for stoping the Ultimate Evil that even Gods cuolnd't stop so puting them in the same league with any other race is not reasonable at alL! :) But anything after those Elves, Dwarves can defeat ,hard but can just as Elves defeat Dwarves,it depends a lot on stituation,leadership and many things! :) But remember Dwarves were able to defeat Doriath Elves(if I am not mistaken) and Dwarves were the one that did better work against the Dagons and helped the Elves,which just mean that Elves and Dwarves combined can't be stoped! :)
About Galadriel when I talk I say Millitary Power/Strenght and in that pure Millitary Might Iron Hills could have defeated Mirkwood and even Lorien and Rivvendail due to bigger numbers and better equpmant and machines,but lets not I am talking about pure melee fight not magic involved,Galadriel Magic mumbo jumbo is not classified as raw millitary strenght I hope you dunerstand what I mean my friend I mean no dissrespect to you nor to the great Elven Race! :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 26. Aug 2015, 21:23
i say this dwarfs are the best Blacksmiths the can do whatever they want with steel or mithril and they are a grate warrior race so i  think the elfs has no change but with an op lady like galadriel on the field of battle i think dwarfs would have a problem wining 
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 26. Aug 2015, 23:46
Walk, I am feeling some tension here.  xD  :P  :P
That ballista was mind breaking idea in movie, it is stupid maybe in eyes of some members here (don't think on you), but C'Mon chain which rotates around big ballista's arrow, that is pretty smart. They got pretty crazy and nice idea in same time. ;) And all in terms of dwarves.
I like it, no matter about its purpose. :D
We will see in EE what was its real purpose.  ;)

P.S. Walk, that is best signature  I have seen so far.  ;)  8-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: korner am 27. Aug 2015, 00:15
And Those Aweseom Ballsitast Destroying like few Thousand Elven Arrows in once!! OMG !!!Iron Hills Army is unbeatable!!!
Lets hope we will see enough to make  BoFA what it should be!! :)

Here is for all who wonder how the Dwarven Ballista Arrows stoped the Elven Arows!Thats at least my logical explnation from whe we have seen till now! :)
Well it seem to be something like Anti-Arrow Net created from something like a whip runing trough the lenght of the Ballista Arrow( http://i.imgur.com/lUrr4Sf.jpg ) and when Fired it begins to spin and takes down the Arrows!Thats what I see from previous Trailer Pics and this for know I think that is it! It is natural for the Dwarves to search and create something to take out the biggest advantage the Elves have over them and that is te Archery and as we know dwarves are one of the best engeneers! :)

As you see by the trajectory it swings around the Arrow and combined all those other Ballista Arrows create somethink like Wall before the Elven Arrows! :)

come on, this thing is absolutely stupid...

I´d rather see some more content of the real storyline from the books, more character development of the dwarves etc. instead of even more totally crazy and unrealistic battle scenes which deny the exist of physics in Middle Earth.


That ballista was mind breaking idea in movie, it is stupid maybe in eyes of some members here (don't think on you)

touché  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Aug 2015, 00:29
come on, this thing is absolutely stupid...
I´d rather see some more content of the real storyline from the books, more character development of the dwarves etc. instead of even more totally crazy and unrealistic battle scenes which deny the exist of physics in Middle Earth.


The existence of Physics in Middle Earth?  8-|

The same display of 'Physics' shown by Sauron, Galadriel, Elrond, Celebrimbor, the One Ring, the Three Rings, Gandalf, Saruman, Melkor/Morgoth, the Valar...
Are you maybe referring to this kind of Physics?

We can discuss about concepts, lore accuracy, cinematographic adaptations and so on; but, at this term, I sincerely think you should reconsider to read again or simply read (if you haven't done it so far) the LOTR and the Silmarillion, and thoroughly ponder about the inner and deep Nature and Spirit of the Tolkien's Legendarium.
You will certainly discover that 'Physics' is not one of the main significant and indicative elements of Middle Earth, not even in the dark and disenchanted Third Age of the World.

Greetings  :)

DieWalküre
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 27. Aug 2015, 00:33
And again korner "boy" have found his way to eng part of forum to express his feelings, especially about dwarves.  :D


Ahhhhhhhhhh. Please man, be more realistic in imaginary world...
What do you expected from PJ, to adapt this children book in some boring binar movie?
Characters development, I agree about that.

P.S. I am pretty sure that eng part of community simple adore you.
Cheers.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: korner am 27. Aug 2015, 00:40
@ Walküre:
You got a point in that.

But all the people you mention are some kind of supernatural characters. That´s ok for me.

But if someone "normal" (dwarves don´t have magic powers...) constructs a machine, this machine should be "realistic" and according to physics.

Trebuchets in Minas Tirith - works
Grond - works
Sarumans Ballistas - works

But this?? Come on...

Couldn´t the dwarves simply lift their shields and the arrows don´t hit their target? Does it need something like this?

Same like Legolas climbing falling rocks etc. The Hobbit movies simply exaggerate action scenes completely. Especially compared to the LotR movies.
Why doesn´t Legolas fly a bat from Imladris to Mount Doom dropping the ring?
Why is crossing the bridge of Khazad Dum a problem if you have skills like this?


And again korner "boy" have found his way to eng part of forum to express his feelings, especially about dwarves.  :D


Ahhhhhhhhhh. Please man, be more realistic in imaginary world...
What do you expected from PJ, to adapt this children book in some boring binar movie?
Characters development, I agree about that.

P.S. I am pretty sure that eng part of community simple adore you.
Cheers.

Chill man. This board is for open discussion, which means you have to accept other users have different opinion to yours.

You always blame me for being rude, but if you analyze the matter correctly, it´s not me but you being rude.
I don´t call others who are severeal years older than me "boys", and besides that I´m active in this forum a while longer then you.

Besides that: I´m a huge dwarves fan, I just don´t like what PJ made out of this movie.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Aug 2015, 00:47
You got a point in that.
But all the people you mention are some kind of supernatural characters. That´s ok for me.

But if someone "normal" (dwarves don´t have magic powers...) constructs a machine, this machine should be "realistic" and according to physics.


How are those ballistas not working properly or against the law of Physics?
As LordDainIronfoot has previously written, they must have a sort of anti-arrows net attached to each projectile.
I instead find it a smart and useful way to counter the Wood Elves of Mirkwood, considering how they generally fight, relying on bows and arrows.

It was a very intelligent and strategic idea of Dáin, I honestly have to reckon  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: korner am 27. Aug 2015, 00:56
You got a point in that.
But all the people you mention are some kind of supernatural characters. That´s ok for me.

But if someone "normal" (dwarves don´t have magic powers...) constructs a machine, this machine should be "realistic" and according to physics.


How are those ballistas not working properly or against the law of Physics?
As LordDainIronfoot has previously written, they must have a sort of anti-arrows net attached to each projectile.
I instead find it a smart and useful way to counter the Wood Elves of Mirkwood, considering how they generally fight, relying on bows and arrows.

It was a very intelligent and strategic idea of Dáin, I honestly have to reckon  :)

because the rotating blades or net would
- cause a huge air resistance
- cause a momentum against direction of move
which simply would lead to slowing down the projectile and make it drop after some metres.

The main thing about all that (for me) is the differences to the Lord of the Rings trilogy. In that movies nearly everything (besides supernatural creatures like Sauron, Gandalf etc.) was "realistic":
- a Mumakil cannot fly without wings
- a troll cannot jump 100 metres high
- someone who falls down a high wall dies

While in the Hobbit movies there are far too much "unrealistic" things (ballista projectiles, suicide trolls, wyrms, nearly every second Legolas move ...) that do not fit to the Middle Earth presented by the LotR trilogy.

My problem is not the action in the Hobbit. My problem is the action in the Hobbit compared to the one in the LotR. It just does not fit together, and it´s still the same world.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Aug 2015, 00:58
well spoken walk ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Aug 2015, 01:01
you think too much man  xD :D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 01:03
So korner what is exactly stupid!?The fact that PJ decided to.give the Dwarves some credit and pay a little bit more attention to them by showing that Dwarves are not just brutre strength and love only to drink and fight but also are great blacksmiths and engineers who came.up with such clever invention to counter the main advantage of the Elves!!And I do not see any problem with the physics even in real world there are somilar inventions and I do not see it so problematic or out of place!The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it bad or wrong in any way!
P.S. And it is not  matter of who had been longer on this forum! :-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gnomi am 27. Aug 2015, 01:05
There is a lot of physics in Lotr.
Tolkien always tried to make middleearth realistic. It's the same as in old sages:
You have all of the things you knew from our world... and then you just add something like magic and dragons.
That's everything. You just add some more things, which (if you look at it from the point of view of our ancestors) could be realistic. Therefore physics is really important. Of course those ballistas aren't as unrealistic as many other things... but I personally think that the movie could be good without them and I don't like them at all.
Tolkien tried to make everything logical and realistic.^^ That's something which is really important and is a difference between middleearth and many other fantasy books. And imo this should have been integrated in the movies, as it is one of the most important things in the books which I really like. That's one of the reasons why I don't like most of Legolas' scenes.
In the books no rules of the real world were replaced - just new things added.^^

Additionally for me there was already too much fighting action and too little development in the hobbit movies. Sadly it seems as if the SEE won't change that but will become even more action packed with bombastic scenes, but there is no story and development shown as in the lotr movies. :(

I could write a bit more about the parallels between middleearth and the edda which tolkien used a lot to make my point clear, but I have no time for that atm.
Just a small summary:
Such things are always not made by "normal" people, neither in the lotr, nor in the edda. Those weapons are made either by gods, mythical creatures which have either magical ancestors or  they were made by the other 'god-races'. But Tolkien described the dwarves very similar to the humen, just with some changes, like better drafting and other desires. Similarly as the hobbits are also like humen, but with some small changes.
So I don't think that it fits for them to construct such weapons.

To create such a weapon (which destroys/catches the arrows in the air) you need a very light material which is strong enough to catch those arrows. Additionally the ballistas have to shot it strong enough that the air resistance won't stop them. The only possible thing would be mithril and dwarves would never use that for such a thing. :P
The only other possibility are such fast rotating blades. I'm a bit unsure here, but I think that it is impossible to create such an arrow which rotates fast enough to hit ALL arrows and also flies over a long distance in a direct curve. Especially after hitting the arrows it should never fly further as if there was nothing.

Those weapons were always created by gods or similar creatures. (as written above)
So it would be 'more' okay for me if Saruman would have invented them, but not the dwarves. Again: I have written above why. :P

So I have to say:
I can understand that people like the scenes, but for me I feel more frustration than happiness when I see them. There are some really nice scenes and things I really love in the movies, but when there is about 10% of scenes I like and 90% of scenes I don't like, while the lotr movies had 90% of scenes I like and 10% I don't like, it's difficult for me to enjoy the hobbit as a good middleearth movie. For me (especially the second and third one) is no serious movie as the lotr movies were, but middleearth-cabarett. And even though cabarett is really nice, I don't like it when they wanted to make serious movies. :P

That has nothing to do with "thinking to much", just with a different approach to the movies. Everyone has a different taste and looks at different points. I personally like many of the non-fighting-scenes, but most of the fighting-scenes are really... irritating, unrealistic and boring for me. Other people love those scenes.^^
Zitat
you think too much man  xD :D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Aug 2015, 01:07
well dain dwarfs are the best blacksmiths in the books and the movies i think bilbo maid it pretty clear in the auj intro :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 01:08
So we are talking about 100% correct physics on a world wilhere we have Trolls,Magical Rings and even and Army of Undead Spirits who walk and kill like it is nothing!Are talking about the same.World!? :-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 27. Aug 2015, 01:11
Ok, about Legolas all is pure fun matter.  xD That stone crushing scene for example, isn't possible in real world ofc. But I think PJ always goes over some real boundary when we speak about Legolas. (He was described in book like leaf, so maybe PJ again wanted to use that description and implement it in movie...)
Completely cool I am. :)
Rude? Because I called you boy? I didn't wrote that in term of years obviously, nevermind. Sorry if that hurt you in any possible way!
About you spent time on this forum, I respect that, but I will defend my opinion also. ;)

Well, about balistas idea is possible is some cases. All you wrote is true, that arrow couldn't fly straight through air like in trailer, but idea is possible. Main condition would be that ballista arrow is much more heavier than chain on its back (it is obviously some kind of chain, not blade). And that it is fired with enough energy ofc. ;)
 
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: korner am 27. Aug 2015, 01:15
So korner what is exactly stupid!?The fact that PJ decided to.give the Dwarves some credit and pay a little bit more attention to them by showing that Dwarves are not just brutre strength and love only to drink and fight but also are great blacksmiths and engineers who came.up with such clever invention to counter the main advantage of the Elves!!And I do not see any problem with the physics even in real world there are somilar inventions and I do not see it so problematic or out of place!The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it bad or wrong in any way!
P.S. And it is not  matter of who had been longer on this forum! :-)

As Gnomi writes, I´d prefer it being accurate to the LotR movies more "realistic".

I don´t have any problem with the dwarves being clever, even with them being more clever then elves.
You may like every bit of the movie, that´s your right and I don´t blame anyone for liking the movies.
But if it´s allowed to say "I like the ballista" then it´s also allowed that I say I don´t like it.
That´s all. Where is the problem?

[/quote][/spoiler]
you think too much man  xD :D
[/quote]

maybe  ;)

I´d like to like the movie, but I simply can´t. Everybods has different preferences.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gnomi am 27. Aug 2015, 01:17
Are you sure that they are the best blacksmiths? :P
What about the elves of the first age? Or the dwarves of the first age?
Would the dwarves be able to make the silmarils?

And even the best blacksmiths can't do anything, even they have their limits. The dwarven of the third age are really good, I won't say anything against it. But they can't use magic or something similar, which is always included in such weapons (at least when you look at all the other special weapons whicha re used in middleearth or in the edda.)


@ LordDainIronfoot:
I have explained it multiple times. I won't  repeat it again. I ahve also explaiend how giants and so on were formed in the edda and tolkien used them in exactly the same way.
it wasn't tolkien's goal to make middleearth a completely different world (like world of warcraft does), but he wanted it to be very similar to the real world. Therefore I think that you CAN use our physics. Perhaps somewhere in the universe (so with our physics) there are some kind of trolls. We had dinosaurs in our world, even trolls could exist. And trolls are more or less just big, strong men.
And if you read my comment again you'll notice that I also wrote something about the magical rings there. So: I won't repeat it.^^

@ CragLord:
I still don't think that it's possible without magic. And dwarves weren't able to use magic, which is why the blades of the elves were always different and in some way better than dwarvish blades: They were able to use it.
So I would like some more indigenously technology of the dwarves and think that those would fit much better. (of course they could still be stronger and better than the normal technology. But the style of the technology just doesn't fit for the dwarves imo.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 27. Aug 2015, 01:28
If we try to watch this from our realistic prospective, yes. They needed magic to contain kinetic energy of that arrow, so it could fly pretty straight.  :D
Any way, I think in terms of which I wrote earlier, this situation is possible in some cases and on some level of its realization.  ;)
Agree about  technology mater in general. We could say that normal anti monster balista is more suitable for Iron Hills dwarves. :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Aug 2015, 01:31
Are you sure that they are the best blacksmiths? :P
What about the elves of the first age? Or the dwarves of the first age?
Would the dwarves be able to make the silmarils?
no but the elves of the first age dose not exist anymore some of them are alive but they are not blacksmiths of meddle earth so yes third age dwarfs are the best
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Aug 2015, 01:36
because the rotating blades or net would
- cause a huge air resistance
- cause a momentum against direction of move
which simply would lead to slowing down the projectile and make it drop after some metres.

The main thing about all that (for me) is the differences to the Lord of the Rings trilogy. In that movies nearly everything (besides supernatural creatures like Sauron, Gandalf etc.) was "realistic":
- a Mumakil cannot fly without wings
- a troll cannot jump 100 metres high
- someone who falls down a high wall dies

While in the Hobbit movies there are far too much "unrealistic" things (ballista projectiles, suicide trolls, wyrms, nearly every second Legolas move ...) that do not fit to the Middle Earth presented by the LotR trilogy.

My problem is not the action in the Hobbit. My problem is the action in the Hobbit compared to the one in the LotR. It just does not fit together, and it´s still the same world.

They are all interesting facts, but this is not a scientific essay.

How do you know, precisely, what kind of Art or unknown Techniques the Dwarves used in the creation of these machines?
The Dwarves are not Elves nor Ainur, but they aren't also Humans.
Most of their Arts are unknown and willingly kept hidden by them.

I really think that a scientific approach like yours, to this kind of topics, is certainly the worst and most counterproductive that one could ever have.
It just basically ruins the whole atmosphere and spirit of this FICTIONAL World.

There is a lot of physics in Lotr.
Tolkien always tried to make middleearth realistic. It's the same as in old sages:
You have all of the things you knew from our world... and then you just add something like magic and dragons.

Those weapons were always created by gods or similar creatures. (as written above)
So it would be 'more' okay for me if Saruman would have invented them, but not the dwarves. Again: I have written above why. :P

That has nothing to do with "thinking to much", just with a different approach to the movies. Everyone has a different taste and looks at different points. I personally like many of the non-fighting-scenes, but most of the fighting-scenes are really... irritating, unrealistic and boring for me. Other people love those scenes.^^


Gnomi, I saw just now your reply.
I don't want to write unnecessary walls of text, but I will just say that I respect your opinions, but there is definitely something more than adding some Dragons here and there in a semi-fictional World  :)

Magic influences everything, one way or the other, in the Tolkien's World; and it has always been a part of the foundations of Arda since the Beginning.
Also, Tolkien often reminds us that, instead of pure 'Magic' (out of nowhere), the imaginary and 'magical' things that we read about in Middle Earth (about Ainur, Elves or Dwarves and specific Humans) should be better considered as specific and proper 'Arts' of each race of Arda (Ainur included), with which the different races influence the surrounding environment.
This is a pivotal topic, as Galadriel (Tolkien) tells us in FOTR, speaking about the 'Art' of the Elves, and considering the 'human' term 'Magic' as a negative and wrong word.

Concerning the creation and mechanism of those ballistas, I think I already replied above to korner, expressing what I truly think  :)
Also, don't forget that the Dwarves have been present in Middle Earth since the Years of the Trees, and that they thus overall possess a superior, ancient and hidden Knowledge about the general crafting of things; a Knowledge that the Humans can easily regard as 'magical', as they do with most of the Elven Arts.
We are still talking about the Third Age, a dark and disenchanted Age, in which, though, Magic is still generally present in the World (obviously in a minor scale); the Fourth Age is the real 'dividing' Age, which definitely marks the ineluctable 'Transformation' of the World.
It's obvious that the general physical laws exist and have their importance in Arda, but I would say that they are 'integrated' in this fictional World in a naturally different way.
Talking thus about atoms, prehistoric creatures or strict mechanic laws is really counterproductive, and it might divert you from the real Essence of this extraordinary Legendarium  :)

This is the crucial fact: no race really thinks to have pure Magic in its hands.
Every race considers and sees its Arts as a natural display and modification of the World according to its own proper and natural qualities.
As the Valar always remembered the Men of Númenor that the Immortal Lands are not immortal by themselves, but they were made so by the Immortal Beings who dwell there  ;)

Are you sure that they are the best blacksmiths? :P
What about the elves of the first age?


I totally agree with you.
One of their most beautiful 'Jewels' (speaking about the Noldor of Aman in general) is the main theme of my signature  :P
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 02:06
I think too much real.world science is not needed I meam too much!We can talk about.possible cutings in tbs Ballista Arrows and air currents and aerodynamic but it is not so Middle Earth Style! :-)
It is true that the Dwarves do not have magic of the magnitude of Galadriel and the Elves ,but as Walkure said there are many things  about the Dwarven technology and  magic ,we do not know even their real names !Bu lt I think that Dwarves posses small magics which can enchant objects those are not so strong and mighty magic but rather Dwarvish style help a little their great inventions ,Magics like uased to enchant other objects like Moria Gate so I think it is quite possible to use similar small enchant on other of their made objects! :-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gnomi am 27. Aug 2015, 02:11
@ CragLord:
I agree with you. It always depends on the point of view. I don't want to say that mine is the only right one, as I'm not Tolkien, so I can't be 100% sure what's correct. I'm just trying to not only understand the books, but also tolkien's art of making the story.^^

Zitat
no but the elves of the first age dose not exist anymore some of them are alive but they are not blacksmiths of meddle earth so yes third age dwarfs are the best
One small thing:
Elrond: alive in first age
Galadriel: alive in first age
Celeborn: alive in first age
Glorfindel: alive in first age

Now tell me again how all elves of the first age  doesn't exist anymore. :P
The thing I wanted to say is that there has been better smiths than the ones at the end of the third age. The dwarves were some of the best at that point, but if you look at the whole story, there were better smiths. And you have to look at everything if you talk about this, because if the dwarves of the iron hills were able to construct such a thing, than all the other ones would also had the possibilities to create such things. And as I said: Magic. Those things would probably only work with magic and we all know that the dwarves weren't able to make weapons with magic. (they were sometimes really frustrated, because they were better smiths than the elves, but weren't able to make magical weapons like the elves)
Therefore there are always differences.^^

@ DieWalküre:
If you compare middleearth with the edda you'll see many similarities. Of course there is more than just adding dragons, I agree with you, but it's also much less than deleting phyisical  and well known rules.^^
As I have written above there is still a difference between things which look magical and things which are really magical. The dwarves were really good - but they used solid and not magical arts. Everyone with enough talent could have learned it - but the dwarves just had more talent than humen and most elves. Therefore it seemed magical.
But the elves were able to use some kind of magic (glowing blades when orcs are near) and those things weren't learnable. The dwarves weren't able to such things, simple because they weren't elves. But very talented elves are able to learn all of the dwarven techniques. (but there were way more talented dwarves than elves^^)

@ LordDainIronfoot:
The door of Moria was built by elves and dwarves together.^^
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 02:21
I know that it is made by Dwarves and Elves but it is nowhere said that Dwarves didnt use a little magic there! :-)
It is a bit of speculation but as I love to.say we never  what Tolkien could have done or.change! And little speculation is not.bad.when within limitations not some wild.dream so my point is that many things we do know for sure doesn't mean that they are not possible and a little speculation is not so out of place! :-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Der Dunkle König am 27. Aug 2015, 02:22
I have a question: Can somebody explain to me how these ballistas work?
The bolts which are fired by them rotate, so they must either have started rotating after they were fired, which is impossible, because after firing there is no longer a connection between bolt and ground. Or they started rotating while they were on the ballistas, before they were fired, which is impossible too, because when I look at these machines there is no place for these rotating anti-arrow-shields to be active while they lie there.

Edit: I have lookes at the picture posted by Dain again, and you can see that some of the bolts are already fired there, and they don't have the anti-arrow-things. So the movie-makers have chosen alternative one and the anti-arrow-bolts are able to unfold themselves magically.
And I definitly agree with Gnomi about that, I don't believe that dwarves are capable of such a kind of magic.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 02:29
So let's look it more engineering way !The Ballistas Arrows may have some sort of cutings and shape changes that combined with the speed and air current make the rotate and those chains or something are unleashed by the current and begin rotate WITH the Arrow itself! :-) I do not know all the proper English words to explain it more clearly but I hope you understood what I mean! :-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 27. Aug 2015, 02:33
Arrow shape is responsible for different mass distibution and start of rotation movement. Arrows are fired in translation way at first place ofc.
Same like windlance arrows, they are fired by transation but they rotate stronly after some time, that is because their shape ofc. :)

From physic way, problem is not arrow rotation, but those chains on arrow back. :P Those rotating chain would slow and crush ballista's arrow too soon. :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Aug 2015, 02:49
Zitat
Elrond: alive in first age
Galadriel: alive in first age
Celeborn: alive in first age
Glorfindel: alive in first age

they are not blacksmithers 
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Der Dunkle König am 27. Aug 2015, 02:52
You say that it is possible because of their mass distribution or shape, but I want to know how exactly it works. I doubt that it is possible at all.

And I think I haven't said it yet, but I agree with korner, I think these ballistas are quite stupid. I don't believe that they could work in any way (, and i agree with Gnomi about physics in Middle-earth,) and I don't think that they are usefull at all. Why didn't the dwarves use shields against the arrows? If they really wanted to arrive quickly at the Erebor, why did they bother with bringing the ballistas all the way from the Iron hills? I think Peter Jacksons just wanted to put another special effect into the movie, of which is already has way to much, just because it might look cool, without deliberating if it really makes sense.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 27. Aug 2015, 03:00
Moment theorem on google.  :)

Because of shape there is distance between force attacking points on arrow. This causes momentum of those forces, whic causes rotation.
P.S. I am graduated student of physics btw. :P :P :P What you what to believe that is your decision. :P And send some regards to korner when you see him on german part of forum.
Cheers bro
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Aug 2015, 03:00
You say that it is possible because of their mass distribution or shape, but I want to know how exactly it works. I doubt that it is possible at all.

And I think I haven't said it yet, but I agree with korner, I think these ballistas are quite stupid. I don't believe that they could work in any way (, and i agree with Gnomi about physics in Middle-earth,) and I don't think that they are usefull at all. Why didn't the dwarves use shields against the arrows? If they really wanted to arrive quickly at the Erebor, why did they bother with bringing the ballistas all the way from the Iron hills? I think Peter Jacksons just wanted to put another special effect into the movie, of which is already has way to much, just because it might look cool, without deliberating if it really makes sense.
what if wee wait for the actual extended edition first watch some more about those
ballistas and then decide if they are stupid or not whada ya say ???
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 03:07
In one of the screen I posted I surrounded the Arrow with Red line where can be seen what I believe is.the chain running trough the length of the Arrow and when the Arrow is fired it.begin to rotate and the chain is unleashed is attached to the back end of the Arrow and begin to rotate with the Arrow itself!
The other part about.how much can it fly well that depends on the strength of the Ballista if it can fire it with enough strength tp create enough cenetic energy for the Arrow to stat long enough in yhe air and j think that the Dwarven Ballista will have strength to fire it and  at least 100 -150 meter which is more than enough! :-) Over all I think it is quite possible and believable to some degree! :-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Aug 2015, 03:16
i wanna hear what crag lord has to say is it possible ?
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 03:21
Of course it is possible but the Arrow wont be able to fly likr 500 meters :D
Also the weight distribution,well the Head Of.the.Arrow can be made heavier and the bacl.lighter to compensate for the weight of the Chain ! :-) And with the proper cutings and shape changes I do believe it is possible! :-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Aug 2015, 03:26
that s good then. jesus i wanna see the extended edition 
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 27. Aug 2015, 03:32
Gray, stop worship me!  :D
Dain have right, it is possible in theory. Mass distribution, very light chain, and even then problem would be air resistance on rotating chain.
In general, it could fly, not straight like in trailer, and distance will be problematic. That would depent on mass, starting energy etc
That is observation from real world. :) It is possible ofc, but not to straight like in trailer. :P No more from me about this matter, I am going to sleep. ;)

P.S. Good night, or morning!? :) :P
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Aug 2015, 03:38
As I have written above there is still a difference between things which look magical and things which are really magical. The dwarves were really good - but they used solid and not magical arts. Everyone with enough talent could have learned it - but the dwarves just had more talent than humen and most elves. Therefore it seemed magical.
But the elves were able to use some kind of magic (glowing blades when orcs are near) and those things weren't learnable. The dwarves weren't able to such things, simple because they weren't elves. But very talented elves are able to learn all of the dwarven techniques. (but there were way more talented dwarves than elves^^)


Gnomi, I think we are probably saying similar things with different words  :)

What is generally known as 'Magic' or 'magical' should be rightly considered as an exclusive/natural Art or Knowledge, and, if we talk about the Elves, absolutely not replicable by the other races; but, as I wrote above, it's very unlikely that the Elves consider themselves or their artefacts really 'infused' by Magic, as an additional quality which comes out of nowhere.
The Elves 'just' regard their creations and power as a 'natural' Knowledge/Art of theirs, which is not replicable by the other races, because this kind of Knowledge refers and is ineluctably bound to their own nature.
The Elves thus know how to make swords shine in specific conditions as a 'common' Art/Knowledge of theirs, just like Yavanna knows how to raise enormous and enlightening Trees from the ground by chanting, or like Varda knows how to craft Stars  :)

The Dwarves and the Humans too have their own proper and specific Arts, but they obviously lack the 'magical' characteristics of the Elven ones, and can be learnt as well by the Elves themselves, because the Elves were the first ones to awaken as fully sentient beings in the World, and were endowed with much more Gifts.

Then, said these things, I never wrote that the Dwarves can use as well the Elven Magic/Arts, or that they can defy the physical laws of the World.
I wrote that they, as a specific race with a specific nature, surely possess secret and specific Arts (their natural Arts), which would easily be able to craft advanced machines or engineering systems; so much advanced to be regarded as 'magical' or impossible by mainly Humans (as we all are  :D), as a mostly scientific and strictly rational approach is exactly one of their (our) characteristics  :)
It's not really crucial focusing strictly on this PJ's interpretation, since the topic could certainly involve any type of other 'advanced' machines.
The significant point is that the Dwarves can surely count on unknown and ancient Arts and technics, which make the creation of anti-arrows nets (or other numerous things) easily possible.

I admit, though, that I would have never imagined that a scene of very few seconds, concerning ballistas, could have created a so deep and interesting debate about the very foundations of the Tolkien's Legendarium  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 03:54
It will take really great calculations and even finer craftsmanship but I do believe that Dwarves are able to make those Arrows with the proper mass distribution,shape and cuttings on the Arrows and proper material and can make that kind of weapon even if it wi not be with so big range but it is a ballista so it is not supposed to fly long ad Long Bow Arrows so 50-100 meters will be more than enough and plus the first meters the Arrow will be able to fly straight but only briefly not the whole  ! :-)
To summarize I believe that Dwarves have the skills and brains it takes to create that weapon and even more it.can work to some degree but still to be effective enough! :-)
Greetings mates! :-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Aug 2015, 04:24
Also, I would like to address everyone who joined this discussion.

I saw that in the previous comments the matter has really become 'technical' and scientific, involving physical statements and debates on the general aerodynamic laws.

I just personally think that, though interesting these discussions could ever be, at the end of the day, speaking about the Tolkien's Universe, it could be really pointless and counterproductive having this kind of approach to these themes, mainly related to pure logic and scientific methods.
If one really wanted to see through the core and the deep Nature of this fictional World (the overall portrait), I think that a kind of natural 'suspension of logic' (pure logic) should be necessary, as it happens in most of the fantasy tales that are set in a apparently very realistic World.
Otherwise, you should necessarily question everything with that strictly logical approach, asking yourself why, given the general laws of Time, Space and Matter, the Elves are generally not affected by Time, how the Dwarves and the Númenóreans can live over 100 years, how can Giant Eagles are capable of thinking and speaking as sentient beings, or how can exist Lands in which nothing withers or rots, affected by Time...

As I also wrote on the Lore Corner once, I honestly don't regard pure and mathematical logic to be really the most suitable approach with which you should deal with these particular topics  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 04:44
Well I said in my first posts I said that wr shouldn't look too deep on faacts and logic since it is a fantasy magical world but few people continued to say that it wasn't possible from physics aspect since Middle Earth physics were like Real World ones and I decided to prove that with properl knowledge,skills and materials it is possible and quite believable ! :-) Thats why I explained to the best of my knowledge and abilities on logical scientific and engineering aspect,although I fo agree with you Walkure that we should look on it as a fantasy world as it is! :-)  Where nearly everything is possible! :-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Aug 2015, 04:52
i think the dwarfs can achieve that kind of balisstas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5k3X9huWVg
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Fine am 27. Aug 2015, 08:04
I'm more concerned about where those ballista bolts will land ^^
Do they hit the elven army? That would decimate hundreds. Resulting in... quite a difficult situation. If the dwarfves have just killed many of his soldiers, how is Thranduils still suddenly OK with allying with them?
It's these sort of things that make scenes like this really seem like they were added simply because "it would look cool", and the creators did not really think them through. As others have pointed out, bringing those ballistas would have slowed Dáin's army down quite alot. I agree with many of you that bringing them makes him seem very prepared for fighting off the arrow-heavy elven army, which makes sense.

But I also think the movies do not really do justice to the relation between elves and dwarves in the third age, in my opinion they were alot less resentful towards each other. In the books, Dáin attacks the combined army of elves and Lake-men because he's trying to get the Arkenstone back for Thorin. He did not care what sort of army was holding the stone. I daresay, if the army besieging Erebor would have been a dwarven army (as outrageous as that may seem), Dáin would still have attacked if they refused to return the Arkenstone to Thorin. There are no mentions of conflict between dwarves and elves in the Second and Third Age (iirc), they actually had rather friendly Relations (see Eregion and Khazad-dûm).

Watching the trailer does make me exited for the Extended Cut but I am still sort of disappointed that most new scenes are simply "It looks cool, let's add that!" kind of scenes. But I am very very glad they gave Beorn some more screen time which is great.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 09:02
Well I think it is obvious that Thranduil willuse his Staff to create a Defensive Magical Field around his Army and will vaporize those Ballsit Arrows :D :D :D
Joking aside I too am very curious what happens do those Arrow land which I doubt it will most likely be not presnt in te EE or I think Gandalf could have blowed them away soemhow with his Powers! :)
And I think that we might get a new Entrance scene for Dain or this here is ust for Trailer purposses like it was in the orignal :D :D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: korner am 27. Aug 2015, 09:13
And send some regards to korner when you see him on german part of forum.
Cheers bro
You can talk to me here as well, no need to go to german section...

The next question about this ballista is:

Do the dwarves actually need this "anti-arrow-ammunition" (no matter if you believe it works or not)??

- bringing those ballistas slows down the army
- dwarves have heavy plate armour
- dwarves have heavy/ big/ thick shields
- dwarves are obviuosly capable of performing a shieldwall, so they´d also be capable of putting their shields over their head like the Romans did
- so there is absolutely NO superiority for the elves with their bows. They can fire a thousand arrows and maybe they´d hit 2-3 dwarves
- even if that anti-arrow-ammunition would work, reloading the ballista would take at least 5 times longer than the elves reloading their arrows, which makes it useless
- IF the dwarves brought those ballistas to battle, wouldn´t it be tactically more efficient to just shoot bolts/ fire bolts on the elven army, to actually have any advantage from the ballista? It´s defensive use is pointless, but offensive it would be usefull...

Like others said: the only use of this ballista is "it looks cool, so we add it - no matter if logical or necessary". And that´s what I personally don´t like, that the movies focus too much on special effects and "cool" features instead of focussing on the plot, the characters, the story.


or I think Gandalf could have blowed them away soemhow with his Powers! :)

I hope this won´t happen... another thing where you´d ask yourself why he doesn´t protect Gondorians from orkish arrows in Minas Tirith or the Fellowship from Goblin arrows in Khazad Dum and so on...
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 09:36
So from "It is stupid" and "It is not possible" we have gone to "It is inconvinient" !
For Christ sake just dealt with the fact that it is a MOVIE and some things are made just to look cool and be liekd by the audiance!The same goes t othe Evles jumping infront the Dwarven Shield Wall,was it tacticaly wise no,but was it dramatic and cool looking yes!It is a Movie after all!
And I do not see a problem in bringing those Ballistasas and extra asset to asure victory after al lDain couln't have been sure in against what he will fight when mmeting the Elves and Man,so let's say he took measures to not be taken by surpirse and didn't take any chances,and those Ballistas probably have diffrent type of Ammunitions like oridnary Arrow and Anti-Arrow Net and who knows may be something else! :)
And I am almost 100% that those Ballistas were pulled by Ram pulled War Chariots andnot by Dwarves on foot so they won't be so slowing down this way! :)

P.S. I too hope that it is will not be Gandalf who stops the Arrows! :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: korner am 27. Aug 2015, 09:44
it is a MOVIE and some things are made just to look cool and be liekd by the audiance!The same goes t othe Evles jumping infront the Dwarven Shield Wall,was it tacticaly wise no,but was it dramatic and cool looking yes!It is a Movie after all!

Correct!

And everyone has the right to like that or not.
And everyone in this forum has the right to express if he likes it or not.

I don´t like it, you like it. That´s ok. What is the problem about it?
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 09:51
Exactly you are absolutely right!The point is that the fact that you do not like it doesnt make it unbelieveable,inconviniet or impossible! :)
You can just say "I do not like it,it doesnt suit my taste and imagination of the battle" Thats all,not going all "It is stupid" ,"It is not possible from physics aspect,from Magical aspect" and next " It is not convinient" ! :)
Just express you opinion and say you don't like it,but dont try to convince other poeple not to like it too by saying that it is not possible and etc.! :)
Have a nice day! :) See you around mate! :) Greeting from the Lord of the Iron Hills! :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: korner am 27. Aug 2015, 09:58
Exactly you are absolutely right!The point is that the fact that you do not like it doesnt make it unbelieveable,inconviniet or impossible! :)
You can just say "I do not like it,it doesnt suit my taste and imagination of the battle" Thats all,not going all "It is stupid" ,"It is not possible from physics aspect,from Magical aspect" and next " It is not convinient" ! :)
Just express you opinion and say you don't like it,but dont try to convince other poeple not to like it too by saying that it is not possible and etc.! :)
Have a nice day! :) See you around mate! :) Greeting from the Lord of the Iron Hills! :)

And you are not trying to convince other people ;)? come on...

You may say you like the ballista and that in your opinion it works in Middle Earth and you like seeing more battle scenes in the EE.

I may say that I find it stupid and for me it does not work in Middle Earth and that I´d prefer to see more character development instead of more battle scenes in the EE.

That´s how it started, then came the big argument (not started by me).
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gnomi am 27. Aug 2015, 10:10
Zitat
Dwarves didnt use a little magic there! :-)
As far as I know it's stated in the silmarillion that dwarves were really skilled and many thought that it would be magic, but the dwarves always hated the elves for being able to use magic, while they weren't themselves.
Concerning the gates of Moria:
Narvi created the doors and hide them, as dwarves were able to create gates you can't see.
Celebrimbor added the moon-glyphes and the password, so that the doors only open when you said the right words.^^

@ Gandalf the gray:
yeah, THEY are no smiths... but I wanted to make the point that there are still elves from the first age - nowhere is stated that all elven smiths from the first age are gone, some of them could still be alive.

@ DieWalküre:
I agree with you. Meant exactly that.^^ I know that tolkien's magic is a bit more subtil and the magic aren't harry potter like fireballs, but more things we would call skills, talents and so on.

Zitat
I just personally think that, though interesting these discussions could ever be, at the end of the day, speaking about the Tolkien's Universe, it could be really pointless and counterproductive having this kind of approach to these themes, mainly related to pure logic and scientific methods.
Well, for me this is the most interesting part about lord of the rings. There is nearly nothing illogical in it and this is the thing which makes lotr different to most of nowerdays fantasy stories.
If you look at the maps: Everything fits perfectly and if you look at the time they use for wandering through middleearth:
It's realistic. (not like the 'teleport to Gundabad and back' of the third movie)
Additionally all the names of rivery, mountains and so on are also always fitting.

F.e. the Carnen, sindarin for redwaters:
Its spring was in the iron hills. When are rivers called something with red in real world?
They need to have a red touch. When do they have it? When they run through or their spring is in an area with a lot of iron. (same for white with chalk)
He always used our own world for every single part of his story and therefore  everything seems really fitting and realistic.(the only part which is truely anrealistic is shelob, as such spiders can't exist, at least if she's built up like a normal spider. But that's something the older folks, who created mythology weren't aware of)
Additionally there are many absracts from biologists and geologists about middleearth, where they've proven things "realistic".^^
And the elven languages are even used in universities to show students how languages changes over time.
So everything he did can be applied in our own world. Perhaps only in an abstract way, but it can and the same way back.
That's why I think that it's important and why I can't enjoy Jackson's movies as much, as he doesn't look at it in the same way.

But on the other hand... perhaps it's just that we germans are unfunny and can't just enjoy such things without thinking about engineering... :D

@ Fine:
Agree with that.

@ LordDainIronfoot:
Yes, it's a movie. But that doesn't mean that you're correct. :P
I ersonally don't like the movie because of many of those scenes. I know that some people like it, but nearly all of my friends don't like the movies because of those scenes.
Just because you 'can' do some things doesn't mean you should. Of course there could be a battleship landing in middleearth and kill everything. It would look really cool. But should they do it? Definitely know.
Everyone has his own boarder what should be done and what not. Those things are definitely beyond my boarder. You still like it, as you have different boarders.
I also disliked the elves jumping over the dwarves because of the same reason:
It was stupid, illogical and just added to look cool. Imo without this scene the movie would be better.
I know that it's a movie, but I think the movie would be better without those scenes. That's why I'm talking about them. ;) I don't want a boring, but realistic movie. You can see in the lord of the rings that there are many really cool scenes and that jackson can create fantastic non-fighting and fighting scenes without such things. (of course they were also a bit unrealistic, but the scenes didn't scream: "LOOK! I'M UNREALISTIC, BUT I'M COOL. I'M SO COOOOOL AND THAT'S WHY I'M HERE"
Similar to the magic of tolkien I like it much more when those scenes are a bit more subtile and you can think of yourself: "Hey, those scenes were cool", without them saying it themselves.

It's just that everyone has a different taste. I just wanted to explain why I don't like them, as we "Hobbit-haters" are always told to be "so hateful, just because it's something new and without a real reason".
Wel, I have my reasons and I wanted to explain them. I like the lotr movies more, because they weren't so overloaded with special effects and those "cool" scenes and because they were more down-to-earth.
And I don't like the hobbit-movies because of the same reasons. :P I can understand that people don't have a problem with that, but I have. If I want to see such things I play warcraft or watch similar movies. But mostly I prefer "realistic" stories like lotr (or if we talk about games: Gothic, Dragon Age, Dead Space...)

I think I have already made the comparison:
The hobbit and lotr movies are as different as warcraft and gothic. One is more or less realistic, the other one is pure fantasy. Both things can be really good on it's own way, but you don't have to like both. As the lotr books were more similar to the lotr-movies (and gothic) I would have liked a similar approach in the movies and hoped that the style would be similar to the lotr movies.
Sadly it wasn't like that.

I will stop now talking about it, as I don't want to force anyone to dislike the movies. If you can enjoy the movies: Do it! I'm happy for you :)
But I will always enjoy the lotr-triology MUCH more. I just wanted you to undrstand why I personally don't like them (you can still like them, but understand why someone don't like them). I hope at least some understood my point. As many of the other team members share many of my points this was also to prevent some of the possible suggestions. :P

PS:
By saing "It's not possible" I also don't want to force enemies to dislike the movies. You can always like the movies even though there are unrealistic parts in it. But there are just MANY parts in it which are unrealistic and noone can tell me that those parts are realistic and they weren't added just to look cool. :P I jus wanted to point out that those scenes are the reason why I don't like it. And LordDainIronfoot:
You aren't better than us. :D If korner and me are trying to convince people that the movies are bad (note again: this was NOT my goal), then you're trying the opposite all the time.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 10:38
Yes I am trying!have I said that I don't try!?But the reason I try is that you and some other people said it is not possible by physics and such things!And deiced to explain it and prove that it is possible,thats all,but I never said "It is possible so you must like it!"
Please make a difference between proving something and trying to force opinion on others!
And Gnomi I know you all hate the Movies and ME too but that doesnt make it bad Movie!I dislike many Plot changes that PJ did I really do and do dislike how Legolas is like some kind of Superman!
So a Battleship could land and destroy everything!?WOW!I agree but I do not see how adding actually a pracical weapon like Ballista with somewhow theoretical ammunition makes it bad or something similar to a battleship!?Thats not a valid point at all!And what is so unrealistic about a Ballistas!!I think we were abel to prove that is quite posible,hard but possible to some degree! I agree a lot of scenes were not needed but I do not think those Ballistas are one of them!
I too find the over use of CGI too much,and some exxagarated things too but those Ballistas are not one of them to me!
You never triyed to convince them that they are bad Gnomi but you just let your dislikenes of the Movie lead your actions!Just say you dislike it and doesnt suit you but do not involve physics and all possible matter in it!!You can think whatever you want of me good or bad,my opinion is my opinon and I am not the only one who stood against you and korner so stop putting all the blame on me as always!I really had different opinion of Edain Team and it Fans,now I am not so sure of it!
Have a nice day and feel free to dislike me as much as you pleaese just because I have different opinion than you stand for my believes! :)
I agree with it!The LOTR was better in those aspects but what can we do times change and tastes change!Now Cinema is all about cool CGI effects and sadly in The Hobbit they overused!But still Movies were quite good in some parts and especialyl the Visuals(I mean Cotusme,Armors,Cast and such)
I just want to remind that the main topic here was about the Ballista and were they possible to create and use,not about what we do not like in the Movies and why we hate them,thats going to far off topic I tihnk at least! :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Aug 2015, 10:50
i think the big Goats can do the trick of draging those ballistas around xD
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: korner am 27. Aug 2015, 10:55
Yes I am trying!have I said that I don't try!?

When you tell others not to try convincing other people, you express that you don´t try to convince others - no matter if you write it down or not.


No one says the ballista is unrealistic. It´s the anti-arrow-ammo which is unrealistic... The ballista itself looks really cool, I´d only prefer it shooting "realistic" normal bolts on the enemy.


Zitat
I think we were abel to prove that is quite posible,hard but possible to some degree!
This is again YOUR opinion, not common opinion. Nothing was proved neither that it´s possible, nor that it´s 100% impossible.
It won´t ever be proved untill someone build that ballista in real to test it  :D (would be an awesome job!).

Zitat
You can think whatever you want of me good or bad,my opinion is my opinon and I am not the only one who stood against you and korner so stop putting all the blame on me as always!I really had different opinion of Edain Team and it Fans,no I am not so sure of it!
No one puts any blame on you. Don´t be insulted only because some else is different opinion than you.
How could we ever discuss any matter if no one could have different opinions without others feeling insulted?

Gnomi just told you: Don´t tell others not to do something that you do yourself. That´s it.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gnomi am 27. Aug 2015, 11:00
Okay, one last comment from me:
Zitat
Please make a difference between proving something and trying to force opinion on others!
Well... I did it. But  just wanted to show you that we're doing the same as you. We were never trying to force an opinion, just trying to prove something. I have also given many points why (similarities of middleearth and the edda) and just wnated to prove something - not force an opinion.^^

Zitat
you all hate the Movies and ME too
I don't hate the movies - I just don't like them, that's still a difference. I also like many parts of the first hobbit movie.

Zitat
WOW!I agree but I do not see how adding actually a pracical weapon like Ballista with somewhow theoretical ammunition makes it bad or something similar to a battleship!?Thats not a valid point at all!
Just go bac to my comment above. Everyone sees things different. I just wanted to show you that some people perhaps would have no problem with that - but you have. In the same way we have problems with this curios ballista thing, while you don't have. Everyone sees things different. Everyone has different boarders. Just imagine that for me the ballista is as the spaceship for you. I have wrote everything else already in previous comments, especially the first one. People can like them, but I don't like them.

Zitat
You never triyed to convince them that they are bad Gnomi but you just let your dislikenes of the Movie lead your actions!Just say you dislike it and doesnt suit you but do not involve physics and all possible matter in it

As written by CragLord it is possible - but not in the way it is integrated in the movies and that's what I also said. I don't like the movies. But there are great scenes, but sadly only very few. Probably you're correct. But I can tell you: You're also doing the samething. Everyone does this. You let your love for dwarvs lead your actions. Believe me or not, but you're doing this. So we're basically doing exactly the same, but have different point of views.

We're all humen, we're all doing mistakes. I think that those ballistas don't fit and that (if you look at it from a realistic point of vew) wouldn't really be possible this way. (I don't say not possible at all - just that there are too many reasons against it)Many people have made multiplepoints - you're saying that they are wrong, we're saying that they're right. I think that it's not possible to be sure who's right and that's the great thing: We can have completely different opinions and none will ever be able to tell us who's right and wrong. :D
I know that it always causes problems when two different opinions clash and both sides have valid points. I'm a big fan of the edda and Tolkien was also a fan of the edda and made middleearth very similar to it. Therefore I think that we can make many comparisons between the edda and middleearth. And such things wouldn't be possible there without magic.

Zitat
You can think whatever you want of me good or bad,my opinion is my opinon and I am not the only one who stood against you and korner so stop putting all the blame on me as always!
Read my comment again. I never put all the blame on you. I just said that you're not better than us. I never said that you're doing things wrong - just that you're saying "You should stop doing this" or "You do this and it's bad!", but you do it the same way.
Does this mean I put the whole blame on you?
No. It just means that you should start looking at yourself. I know what I wrote and I know what you wrote and we both tried similar things, just from different points. If you read my previous comments carefully you'll notice that I never wrote: "You did everything wrong", but "everything you blame us for doing wrong are things you're also doing wrong", so I'm just telling you that we're on the same level and that's why I never wrote something like that in the beginning, but after you blaming us I wanted to show you that we're no worse than you. That's all.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 11:01
I tried to prove that the Ballsita and thier Ammo are possible to some degree and not so unrealistic!I tried to exaplin it and prove it not Covnince them to like the Movie or the Scene!!
There is a difference in those you know!Proving and tryig to convince! :) Something may be proven that is possible but that doesnt make you to like it more! :)
Yes to be absolutely proven it has to be build in real life but I think WETA wouldn't have inlucded those Arrow if they 100% not possible at least I think that way and as I and CragLord said few times above it is quite possible in theory and physical aspects! :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Aug 2015, 11:02
i think dain has a point  the fact that you do not like it doesnt make it unbelieveable,inconviniet or impossible and you were trying to convince poeple that this is stupid and not lorish
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 11:08
Agree with you!I ahve exaggarated a bit!
So I suggest to agree that we dissagree and make peace!As you said we all had valid point from fact point of view and lest say we are like 50/50 on how much that thing is possible!I never wished to star a War with you or anyone here I jsute backed my opinon with facts tring to prove it thats all! :)
I hope we have peace on the matter!Movies wer not al that bad and bad at the same time! :D
P.S. really as Walkure said who would ahve thought that a 2-3 sec scene with 1 Weapon coudlcreate such a war oof opinons :D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: korner am 27. Aug 2015, 11:16
i think dain has a point  the fact that you do not like it doesnt make it unbelieveable,inconviniet or impossible and you were trying to convince poeple that this is stupid and not lorish

And you are trying to convince people the other direction. That doesn´t make anyone better or worse then the other.

I tried to prove that the Ballsita and thier Ammo are possible to some degree and not so unrealistic!I tried to exaplin it and prove it not Covnince them to like the Movie or the Scene!!
There is a difference in those you know!Proving and tryig to convince! :) Something may be proven that is possible but that doesnt make you to like it more! :)
The use of proving something, is to convince others of your opinion. So if you tried to prove that the ammunition is relistic, you tried to convince me and others of taking it as realistic.

You can say whatever you want: you do the same like me or Gnomi, just the other way round.

Can you show me any part of any of my posts, where I tried to convince people to dislike the movie?? No you won´t, because I never did.
I only expressed my discontent about (in MY opinion) increase of unneccessary special effect scenes and features on the one hand, and the lack of character and story development in the movie on the other hand.
That´s my opinion and it will stay the same no matter whatever you say.
I do accept your opinion that you like those features, but please respect my opinion or Gnomis as well.



EDIT:

Agree with you!I ahve exaggarated a bit!
So I suggest to agree that we dissagree and make peace!As you said we all had valid point from fact point of view and lest say we are like 50/50 on how much that thing is possible!I never wished to star a War with you or anyone here I jsute backed my opinon with facts tring to prove it thats all! :)
I hope we have peace on the matter!Movies wer not al that bad and bad at the same time! :D
P.S. really as Walkure said who would ahve thought that a 2-3 sec scene with 1 Weapon coudlcreate such a war oof opinons :D

+1

I think we have discussed this matter now for already too long.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 11:28
I do respect yours and Gnomis opinion! :) And as I said proving something doesn't it make good or make you like it! :)
But now enough with that,as I said lets agree that neither side can aboslutely prove that is like 100% possible or not,so we may go with a tie! XD
And I do hope that we will see more character development but I think the time for that is not in Battle but with all rather pointless scenes and characters like Alfrid,Hilda and here faminist followers trying to fight Special war bred Orcs(and not to mention succeding :D ) and even the extra Family of Bard and all the time spended on them,as well as 30 min of Legolas( I am fine with him being in the Movie but he should have played smaller role more modest one) and all this wasted while so much better characters could ahve been developed and more battle showed after its title is The Battle of the Five Armies! :)
P.S. I hope we will see some Normal Arrows for those Ballistas and how they were brought on the battlefield! :)
Greetings! :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: korner am 27. Aug 2015, 11:47
Agree. Even in Battles they should have set different focus.

One example: The dwarven Phalanx against the charging orks.

When I saw the dwarves building up the Phalanx I thought "yeah cool, great thing!". But then come those foolish suizide-elves jumping over that awesome phalanx, destroying all battle tactics for nothing, only to get one moment of "cool" Matrix-like move.
Wouldn´t it be more awesome to see masses of orcs crushing into the shieldwall, Orks dieing by the hundreds like flies and the dwarves holding ground against waves of enemies while the elves rain arrows on the orks from behind the shieldwall??
Why did they sacrifice this potentially epic battle only to get one more "cool" special effect? Elves don´t commit suicide by the hundreds in Tolkiens Middle Earth...
I nearly exploded from anger in the cinema...

Same like in first movie when the dwarves run from the Orks into that hidden cave and the Riders of Rivendell suddenly attack the Orks:
Couldn´t they shorten the scene where Radagast rides his chariott for several minutes over the fields by lets say 20 seconds so that we get time to actually show more than a glimpse on the Riders of Rivendell crushing the Orks?
Why don´t they show us those awesome Riders for more then 1-2 seconds??

This is the main thing I dislike about battle scenes in the Hobbit movies: they are all made with VERY short cuts (e.g. the escape out of Goblintown: you see heads being cut off Orks, but so quick you don´t see who did it, how he did it...).

Compared to the Lord of the Rings:
Battle scenes show 1 person for longer time, you can actually see what he is doing. For example Boromirs last stand, Aragorn against Mollock, Aragorn against Lurtz and so on.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Aug 2015, 12:21
I agree on all of it! :)
It would have been much cooler to show the teamwork between the Dwarves and Elves and how combined they are unstopable!The Orcs should have crushed in the Shield Wall like waves in the rocks while the Elves would ahve drowned them in volleys of Arrows and only then all should ahve joined int close combat!Although a cool moment with the Evles jumping it wasnt so good as it all could have been!
And most certainly more important characters should have got time like Thradnuil and Dain may be fighting against a Troll that just headbutting Orcs with his forehead :D And Thradnuil taking out one as well or Wargs!!And Tohrin Company Dwalin,Balin and Fili and Kili should ahve get much more screen time in Battle as the best Warriors ain Thorins Comapny but no we all had to see the struggle of Alfrid the Useless and Hilda the Faminst and Bard the loving Father!!
I really have big hopes in that EE and I pray that PJ will not dissapoint me! :(
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Aug 2015, 02:00
Ok, I think I will leave a kind of last comment/consideration as well, about what we have discussed so far  :)

Well, for me this is the most interesting part about lord of the rings. There is nearly nothing illogical in it and this is the thing which makes lotr different to most of nowerdays fantasy stories.
If you look at the maps: Everything fits perfectly and if you look at the time they use for wandering through middleearth:
It's realistic. (not like the 'teleport to Gundabad and back' of the third movie)
Additionally all the names of rivery, mountains and so on are also always fitting.

But on the other hand... perhaps it's just that we germans are unfunny and can't just enjoy such things without thinking about engineering... :D


Gnomi, I never wrote or implied that the whole Universe of Tolkien might be totally unrealistic or illogical; it's the exact opposite thing  :)
But, given that (as you have rightly exposed above) the Tolkien's Legendarium is a realistic (very realistic) representation of a fictional World (a kind of diverse and complicated Reality very similar to ours, and governed by similar natural laws), it's still not REAL.
And thus, as a fictional Universe, it can't be approached 100% the same way we approach our Reality, especially with very specific and holistic scientific reasonings.

Let's say that those scientific reasonings could be used to describe a lot of essential and basic things of Arda, but, in the end, they would naturally fail to explain everything, eventually failing to give an useful and precise answer to the various questions and 'mysteries' that are deeply part of Eä (the material and physical Universe).
The high and impressive lifelikeness of Arda is perfectly integrated with its 'Magical Nature', which is, as we conveyed in our previous comments, the sum of all the unknown and natural powers and knowledges of superior (or just different) sentient beings (in this case, mainly Elves and Ainur), who shaped and modified the course of the events of the World and the World itself with their natural powers and actions.

That's why, as I referred to above, one could never really find a scientific and technical explanation (based on our standards) for the nature of the Two Trees of Valinor, the 'Immortality' of the Elves, the long lifespan of the Númenóreans and the Dwarves, and an enormous amount of other things...
What about, for example, the Great Cataclysm that changed the Shape of the World, the Corruption of the Elves into Orcs, the unknown Arts in the creation of the race of the Dragons, or the holy Magic which infuses Valimar and the whole Blessed Realm?
These things shouldn't (can't) be explained or approached with our scientific standards of Knowledge, because they would be suitable up to a certain point, and, then, would inevitably fail and made useless.
Furthermore, I don't think that it would be really fair, as someone wrote in the previous comments, dividing the 'world' of the Ainur and the Elves from the one of the Dwarves and Humans, inferring that the former is the real and only 'magical' one, and the latter is 'our' real Reality, in which we can easily explain everything with Science.
There is only one Arda (World), and, since it was created and shaped by the Ainur in the first place and, later, inhabited firstly by the Elves (among the Children of Ilúvatar), these two races belong to it as the Dwarves and the Humans, and their 'Magic' is a fundamental and indivisible part of it.

To conclude this long post (I'm sorry  :P), I really believe that, apart from the interesting and realistic traits of Arda and discussions about its foundations, there are things that must be necessarily accepted as they are, recognising our impossibility or very vague and imprecise capability of exhaustively explaining them.
As if we questioned what truly is the 'Free Will' of the Valar, and, consequently, why they do not have higher 'ambitions' of Power and always inevitably follow the Will and Authority of Eru as the only Truth, without questioning it (like the Angels towards God in Christianism).
Or trying to understand the real Nature of Ilúvatar (God), and how exactly it (Eru has no gender) is capable of having always existed in the Past (before the Ainur), always existing in the Present, and existing forever in the Future.

There are no possible scientific or technical answers to these matters.
Not because you are Germans, but because we are Humans, and thus can't understand things beyond our comprehension of Reality  ;)
I think that this pivotal theme is perfectly described and dealt with by Tolkien, even if it's present in very subtle ways.

The Tolkien's Writings are primarily Fantasy texts, and they had better remain so.

I hope we can agree on that  :)



Greetings  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 5. Sep 2015, 00:49
Do you guys think maybe the Extended Edition of BOTFA may have a different prologue? Like, if Sauron interrogates Gandalf about the Three Rings, and then maybe shows him the vision with Smaug through the palantir (it would be my favorite scene  xD)? I, at least, think that this would make the movie a lot more interesting - it will add to the Dol Guldur subplot and make a more proper (imo) introduction into the movie at the same time :)
And the beginning of the movie is where I think more Dol Guldur scenes belong; I think they would fit more there. Do you think a new prologue like this is possible?
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 5. Sep 2015, 01:09
Do you guys think maybe the Extended Edition of BOTFA may have a different prologue? Like, if Sauron interrogates Gandalf about the Three Rings, and then maybe shows him the vision with Smaug through the palantir (it would be my favorite scene  xD)? I, at least, think that this would make the movie a lot more interesting - it will add to the Dol Guldur subplot and make a more proper (imo) introduction into the movie at the same time :)
And the beginning of the movie is where I think more Dol Guldur scenes belong; I think they would fit more there. Do you think a new prologue like this is possible?


Well, I honestly think that it is very unlikely that we will see that scene, involving the Palantír and Smaug.

But, I also believe that it would be possible seeing Sauron interrogating Gandalf, if they are really willing to widen the role of the Three Rings and their powers.
The Three Rings have always been hidden from the malicious sight of Sauron since the Second Age; it is very likely that he's constantly and spasmodically trying to know something about them  :)

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 5. Sep 2015, 09:50
Well, in any case, I hope Dol Guldur gets more scenes in the EE, it will be much more interesting than things like Alfrid  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 5. Sep 2015, 10:41
Agree!Anything will be more interesting than Alfris or Hilda D
We need more.Galadriel vs Sauron,more Dain fighting,more Thranduil,coronation of Dain ,funeral of Thorin and a proper ending !!
If you ask me PJ can delete all Alfrid scenes! :D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 5. Sep 2015, 12:05
agree
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Fredius am 6. Sep 2015, 00:42
agree

Congrats man, to me you just became the member of the month, because almost all your posts I found on MU consist more or less of the words "I agree", and that really makes me laugh out loud :D :D :D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 6. Sep 2015, 00:44
i think its because some guys have a point but hay you cant put everything on the game
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Fredius am 6. Sep 2015, 00:45
Nah don't worry about it my friend, it just cracks me up everytime I read those kind of posts from the same person, I have no idea why xD.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 12. Sep 2015, 19:12
Some new footage of Bard and Smaug.

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Sep 2015, 19:23
Some new footage of Bard and Smaug.



Thank you very much for your periodic news about the EE, Tiberius  ;)

Hopefully, we might see promotional clips also of the Battle of Dol Guldur in the next days  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 16. Sep 2015, 16:38
Thank you Tiberius! :) And while I can say the footage was interesting and fun I am not so  verry fond of it,cuz I think there is much more interesting better stuff that can be shown than just Bard sliding on some roof!! :)

I hope we will see much better things and nopt scenes wasted on such poinless cascades! :)

Greetings! :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Sep 2015, 18:52
A few days ago I casually watched an extra content of iTunes about BOTFA (that I can't unfortunately upload here).

It was basically an almost 9-minute video, which mainly consisted in a long and holistic comment of PJ and Philippa Boyens about the creation and the whole concept itself of the Hobbit trilogy, referring in particular to the last chapter of this trilogy.
As I kind of immediately imagined watching the video, it was the extended version of a video that I had already watched before, in the preceding days of the official release of BOTFA (in the early December).
The expanded version of that video, the one that I recently saw on iTunes, contains actual footage of the very BOTFA, that they obviously couldn't show us before the official release of the film (that's why it was cut).
This is the 'short' version of the iTunes extra content, which deals with the same main themes, but, obviously, in a more synthetical way  :)


One element, that is not present in this short version, is the comment about Galadriel and the Banishment of Sauron; this comment starts at 1.20 in the YouTube video, and, in the iTunes version, it has more content in it.
Speaking about the 'Resurrection' of Sauron and the White Council, PJ and Philippa Boyens say that Galadriel puts an enormous amount of Power in the Banishment of the Dark Lord from Dol Guldur (showing BOTFA footage of the Banishment), and that this leaves her dramatically weakened and strengthless.
The impact of this confrontation drains the majority of her magical powers, changing her forever and forever making her unable to regain her previous Might...



That's why (PJ's and Philippa Boyens' words) Galadriel has in the LOTR trilogy a 'detached' and 'passive' role and behaviour, knowing that most of her powers are inevitably gone (they also showed some footage of FOTR of Galadriel).

What do you think?
I'm not really convinced by this interpretation...  8-|
Galadriel becomes finally aware of the ineluctable decrease of her powers when she rejects the One Ring, and, consequently, her millenary Ambition of Power.
Also, at the arrival of the Fellowship in Caras Galadhon, she is at the apex of her Might, almost unmatchable in her own realm.
Also, she later fends off the three assaults from Dol Guldur with her powers, and (when Nenya had already lost its magical Power with the destruction of the One Ring) destroyed and purified Dol Guldur from the Memory and Evil of Sauron, her real Last Act of Power, resembling (obviously in a minor scale) what Lúthien did in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, always against the Power of Gorthaur/Sauron  8-)



Also, speaking about Magic and the confrontation of Dol Guldur, this is what I have found throughout the Internet.
It is another WETA concept of the White Council; and Galadriel surely gives us a direct representation of what she may be able to do, fighting with what seems to be the Shadow of Sauron  :)

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Fine am 16. Sep 2015, 20:42
I always thought Sauron was not banished (actively) from Dol Guldur but instead retreated on his own accord in order to deceive the White Council into thinking they had weakened him. But instead he spent some time in the East and then rebuilt Barad-dûr (and the whole land of Mordor), commencing his war on the West by attacking Ithilien (and thus, Gondor).

I may be wrong, but this is how I recall it from reading the source material. (This is just off the top of my head, I did not read anything up before posting)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Der Dunkle König am 16. Sep 2015, 20:53
That's correct, Fine. Quote from "Of the Rings of power":
" [...], and drove Sauron from his hold, and Mirkwood for a brief while was made wholesome again.
But their stroke was too late. For the Dark Lord had forseen it, and he had long prepared all his movements; [...] Therefore his flight was but a feint, and he soon returned, and ere the Wise could prevent him he re-entered his kingdom in Mordor and reared once again the dark towers of Barad-dûr."

So Sauron didn't really try to defend himself against the Council, he wanted them to believe that they banished him.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Sep 2015, 20:58
I always thought Sauron was not banished (actively) from Dol Guldur but instead retreated on his own accord in order to deceive the White Council into thinking they had weakened him. But instead he spent some time in the East and then rebuilt Barad-dûr (and the whole land of Mordor), commencing his war on the West by attacking Ithilien (and thus, Gondor).

I may be wrong, but this is how I recall it from reading the source material. (This is just off the top of my head, I did not read anything up before posting)


Yes, I agree with you.
And, this is also what Tolkien tells us in the Appendices: Sauron deceives the White Council and makes his retreat seem to be like a defeat, avoiding a direct involvement.
But, still from this source, it's also possible to infer that a sort of Battle (magical or not) between the White Council (Galadriel is thus included) and Sauron (or/and his evil forces) took place anyway  :)

Yes, according to the film's plot, it's not a complete Banishment.
But, when Galadriel says at the end that the Spirit of Sauron 'endured', it might be a subtle hint of the real purpose and intention of Galadriel in the confrontation with Sauron: she might have tried to banish him forever into the Void, the same fate of Morgoth, but, of course, eventually failed, being it something definitely beyond the Powers of the Elves.
The only complete Banishment was done exclusively by the Valar, when they threw Morgoth out of the Walls of the Night.

That's correct, Fine. Quote from "Of the Rings of power":
" [...], and drove Sauron from his hold, and Mirkwood for a brief while was made wholesome again.
But their stroke was too late. For the Dark Lord had forseen it, and he had long prepared all his movements; [...] Therefore his flight was but a feint, and he soon returned, and ere the Wise could prevent him he re-entered his kingdom in Mordor and reared once again the dark towers of Barad-dûr."

So Sauron didn't really try to defend himself against the Council, he wanted them to believe that they banished him.

Yes, this is the exact source.
Though, it's not specifically stated if there were battles or not, or which members of the White Council showed up.

Anyway, what I wrote in the previous comment refers specifically and exclusively to the BOTFA very own plot.
Something obviously different and apart from the canonical lore.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 22. Sep 2015, 17:15
I think the overall sins that the movies made are that they were made with audiences and merchandising in mind, as opposed to just making the best adaption that they could. It would be cool if PJ released a directors cut of the movie that was more like the fan cut version, but changing stuff like mermaid Galadriel to the original ideas pre Guillermo.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Sep 2015, 18:00
I think the overall sins that the movies made are that they were made with audiences and merchandising in mind, as opposed to just making the best adaption that they could. It would be cool if PJ released a directors cut of the movie that was more like the fan cut version, but changing stuff like mermaid Galadriel to the original ideas pre Guillermo.


Then, I seriously think that Mermaid/Seaweed Galadriel might be replaced by an angelic concept, or, better, a Sublime form like in FOTR  8-)

Sublime = Immensely Beautiful and Dreadful at the same time  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 22. Sep 2015, 21:27
Zitat
Then, I seriously think that Mermaid/Seaweed Galadriel might be replaced by an angelic concept, or, better, a Sublime form like in FOTR
Which was one of the best immediate dramatic character change I've ever watched on movies.
On the other hand the Seaweed was one of the lamest CGI effect I've ever seen on movies  [ugly]
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 3. Okt 2015, 19:41
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: aminetude am 3. Okt 2015, 21:08
is is really good, even if it is just fan made :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: aminetude am 14. Okt 2015, 08:33
new EE pics  (**) (**) (**) (**) we get to see more of the rings of the elves !!!!!
https://www.facebook.com/The-middle-earth-memories-1521511808125279/
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Okt 2015, 09:14
new EE pics  (**) (**) (**) (**) we get to see more of the rings of the elves !!!!!
https://www.facebook.com/The-middle-earth-memories-1521511808125279/


Yes, wonderful news  (**)

Sauron will be indeed interested in the Three Rings, and they will be probably displayed as well together, for the first time, in the Hobbit trilogy.
Great thing, furthermore, that Galadriel will have much more space for showing her potential; it remains to see if there will be other battling scenes with her and Sauron.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 14. Okt 2015, 09:59
I haven't watched the EE, but from what I heard in The One Ring forums, Galadriel may get a bit more fighting, but not much, and she doesn't speak Black Speech...
It would also seem everyone was right - the palantir vision scene isn't in the movie  :(.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: aminetude am 14. Okt 2015, 12:11
1.) More scenes of Bard&Smaug
2.) More scenes of Galadriel VS. Sauron ( oh yes diwalkure !!!! there is more of our dark lady against the dark lord !!!!! )
3.) More scenes of Gandalf & the Orc that threw him while he was in a cage
4.) More scenes of Elrond, Saruman VS. The Nazguls
5.) Radagast & Gandalf will talk more after they leave Dol Guldur
6.) More scenes of the Elves when they arrive in Dale
7.) Bofur and Bilbo will talk befor Bilbo goes to Dale (like in An Unexpected Journey)
8.) Thorin will talk more with Gandalf, Thranduil and Bard while he's behind the wall
9.) Dwarves Army will fight against Elvish Army before the Orcs will come
10.) The Movie got an R-Raiting when Thorin and the other Dwarves charge out of the Mountain ( BRUTAL ORC KILLING !!! )
11.) More scenes of Dori Nori Ori fighting together
12.) More scenes of Bifur Bofor Bombur fighting together
13.) Bofur will have an awesome moment
14.) We will see more blood in the Extended Edition ( of course in got an R- rating ! )
15.) Woman of Lake-Town will fight against the Orcs
16.) More scenes of Thorin and Dain
17.) We will see a 3 Minute cart scene of the Teaser Trailer
18.) Gandalf will fight against a troll ( impressive !!!)
19.) Dain & Thranduil will fight together
20.) More scenes of Alfrid
21.) More scenes of Legolas while he is fighting
22.) We will see the scene when Bifur gets out the axe out of his Head
23.) Bombur will talk
24.) More scenes of Bolg against Legolas
25.) More scenes of Beorn in the Battle
26.) And we will get an very emotional funeral scene
and sadly he confirmed we will not see beorn tortured in dol'guludur :( it is a deleted scene.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 14. Okt 2015, 12:25
Yeah more Alfrid jsut what the MOvie needed,and of course oldman,oldwoman and woman kilin Orcs bred for War,makes sense and looks logic and so Epic!!Especialyl how from like 1000 Lake Town-ers we got around 2000 Fightning force killin the most Elite and well Armor Orcs seen till now :D :D By that Logic Mikrwood could have destroy Dol Guldur Army while Iron Hills destroyes the Gundabad Army,oh no wait Legolas destroyes that Army  [uglybunti]

Wel lDwarves VS Elves will create suxh fandom fights :( and not to mention people who will ask even more where is thel logic in Azog showing when he did while he could have jsut waited for the Dwarves and Elves to kill each other  [uglybunti]
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 14. Okt 2015, 12:28
i saw the movie its awesome
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: aminetude am 14. Okt 2015, 12:54
i saw the movie its awesome
can you plz tell us the detailed white council EE scenes ?
if you dont want to spoil it for other people send me a personnal message please :)
also first tv spot for EE is released ! https://www.facebook.com/The-middle-earth-memories-1521511808125279/
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 14. Okt 2015, 14:16
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Okt 2015, 14:22
2.) More scenes of Galadriel VS. Sauron ( oh yes diwalkure !!!! there is more of our dark lady against the dark lord !!!!! )


If this is true, it's a very great information  ;)
I knew that something more should have necessarily been added for the confrontation between two of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth.

Also, let's preach the unmatchable Might of the Princess of Tirion, and despise the fool Orc who tried to attack a mighty Elf of Valinor  8-)

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2j3jrq8%3E&s=8#.Vh5HPPntmkp
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: aminetude am 14. Okt 2015, 14:59
more info in https://www.facebook.com/The-middle-earth-memories-1521511808125279/
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 14. Okt 2015, 15:37
Dain is like dude he stole my ride !!  [uglybunti] [uglybunti] [uglybunti]
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 14. Okt 2015, 15:48
It seems we will have a lot new material for new ideas. I can already presume some new dwarven ideas for Edain. xD :P
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Okt 2015, 15:57
It seems we will have a lot new material for new ideas. I can already presume some new dwarven ideas for Edain. xD :P


Not only for the Dwarves...  [ugly]
Cruelty will be, apparently, the main theme of the BOTFA EE  xD
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 14. Okt 2015, 16:01
Absolutely Crag and can think of few new Threads about Dwarves and even some for my Favourite Elves ever the Mirkwood!;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 14. Okt 2015, 16:07
Oh I agree, I was looking to previus Dain's comment, so that's why I mentioned dwarves. :P
I think there will be a lot new material for other factions as well,Misty Mountains, Elves etc
But the most of new material will concern dwarves as I could saw so far. xD

I am glad to hear that.  :)
I hope those future topic will be productive with suggestions like new Outpost one.  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 14. Okt 2015, 21:21
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 14. Okt 2015, 21:27
ThorinsNemesis, have you watched movie? :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 14. Okt 2015, 21:29
this is a spoiler for the movie so check it only if you dont mind

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 14. Okt 2015, 21:55
ThorinsNemesis, have you watched movie? :)
Sadly no, as I'm not in the USA  :(. But I watched the funeral scene online.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Okt 2015, 22:41
this is a spoiler for the movie so check it only if you dont mind



You just can't leave us with guessing, Gray.
Be merciful, give us some additional details  xD
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 14. Okt 2015, 22:57
Heheheh, Mr Gray has made you very curious with that spoiler button.  :D :D :D
I presume that something about Lady of Light will pomp up if I click on that button? xD
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 15. Okt 2015, 11:32
 xD xD xD spoiler alert open only if you dont mind the spoilers

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: aminetude am 15. Okt 2015, 12:00
thanks for news :) gandalf the grey :)
anyway after what i read in many forums, and what i concluded that this how the dol'guldur sequence goes:
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 15. Okt 2015, 12:14

So, it's similar to what I had quite imagined and we discussed about here, in the past months.
Anyway, I'm really hopeful that this additional confrontation will be absolutely worthy to be seen  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: aminetude am 15. Okt 2015, 13:29
at the begining i had my doubt, that there will be any new scene with galadriel vs sauron, because some who saw the movie didnt mention it at all, but most of them werent fans of the white council sequence so they mostly didnt even pay attention to the battle of dol'guldur, and some even stated that they have forgotten how it was, but since my respectful friend gandalf the grey confirmed it, then i am so happy to wait for that particular scene :) :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 15. Okt 2015, 14:07
That sounds awesome, can't wait for the release of the Extended Edition to see it too! :) Also Sauron's additional appearance will explain why Elrond looks at the staircase where Sauron appears when picking Galadriel up  8-|.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: aminetude am 16. Okt 2015, 00:09
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Okt 2015, 12:27
also there s a lot of new dwarves scenes 
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 16. Okt 2015, 14:10
Personally I'd love to see those new scenes of Sauron talking about Galadriel's Ring; but my hope gets lower and lower, cus it seems most other people on the Net say they didn't see that scene?  :o
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Okt 2015, 14:45
Personally I'd love to see those new scenes of Sauron talking about Galadriel's Ring; but my hope gets lower and lower, cus it seems most other people on the Net say they didn't see that scene?  :o


Probably, there was a bit general misunderstanding among many users of different forums.
I always imagined that Sauron might have been appeared before his actual Banishment, and talked/confronted Galadriel, dealing with, also, the theme of the Three Rings, that we evidently saw as a part of the Dol Guldur plot.
I think that it's quite sure, thus, that we will be able to behold this brief yet significant scene.

Many people may have misinterpreted this aspect as an actual new battle/fight between Galadriel and Sauron.
While this previous 'encounter' of the two has always been a part of the original plot, deeply linked to the Three Rings, as we can see in this official graphical concept of WETA  :)

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: aminetude am 16. Okt 2015, 15:10
thank you diewalkure, you really made my day :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 16. Okt 2015, 15:21
Thanks to both of you, now my my hope got a little higher; it'll be great to see that scene in the Extended Edition, and I'm looking forward to the digital release  :).
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Okt 2015, 15:53
Thank you, both of you too  :)

In that picture, you can clearly see Galadriel openly displaying Nenya, in an attempt to defend herself, and Sauron trying to drain her Ring's powers.
I'm sure it will be great  8-)

P.S. Both of you, if you use the SPOILER tool for long quoted comments, the thread will certainly be easier to consult and read  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: aminetude am 16. Okt 2015, 16:01
ok i found out how to do it, now it is better thanks walkure :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: NetoD20 am 17. Okt 2015, 06:00
Have you guys already seem these?
https://www.facebook.com/The-middle-earth-memories-1521511808125279/videos/
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: aminetude am 20. Okt 2015, 18:04
Two extended scenes of elrond and saruman vs nazgul are added:
https://www.facebook.com/The-middle-earth-memories-1521511808125279/
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: NetoD20 am 21. Okt 2015, 00:13
I like the dwarves a lot, but... ELVES FTW!!!
Whole elves vs dwarves battle scene:
https://www.facebook.com/1521511808125279/videos/vb.1521511808125279/1658278611115264/?type=2&theater

Come on KAT, I'm waiting on you.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 21. Okt 2015, 18:16
It would seem this scene was really filmed, comfirming that this statue in Dol Guldur really held a palantir:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRyv4zsUEAAN57M.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRyv42EUAAQkQLm.jpg
These pictures were posted on TORN (by the user nusilver, he watched the entire Appendices and posted what he saw on them) and are part of the BOTFA EE Appendices, where a quick shot of Gandalf touching the palantir (starting his vision) is shown as a deleted scene. It would seem this really was meant for DOS, to give Gandalf a sence of urgency to reach the Mountain (probably the scene was going to play out just before Azog shows up), but Philippa Boyens decided that they didn't need that scene, so they removed it, probably when they changed the Dol Guldur subplot to exclude Thrain.
I just decided to show these pictures here; I think it's pretty lame that the scene was removed, I would have given everything to see it in DOS Extended Edition (or at least if they had shown the entire deleted scene)  :(.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 21. Okt 2015, 20:48
Agree with you, it is pretty lame because those scenes are not included...  :(
Philippa Boyens decided wrong about this matter.  [uglybunti]
Thanks for sharing those pictures, they are cool. :)
And this will probably be better than Thrain' scene, but we can only despair now.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 21. Okt 2015, 20:51
^^Completely agree with you, my friend; I would have loved to see the completed scene in DOS Extended Edition, even though it's my favorite Middle-earth movie, the palantir scene would have made the movie a lot more interesting  :(.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 21. Okt 2015, 20:58
So I didn't understand you completely, is possible somehow to see this?
I mean, you mentioned some Appendices,BOTFA EE Appendices, where we could find those? On original BOTFA EE disk?
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 21. Okt 2015, 21:08
As far as I know, yes; a user on TORN downloaded BOTFA from the digital download on iTunes and watched the Appendices that came with it. These Appendices also show the scene when Bilbo plants the acorn in Dale (the scene is completely finished and contain Bilbo's line 'When faced with death, what can anyone do?') and the scene that decides the fate of the Gems of lasgalen (Gandalf reminds Thranduil that his wife left him more than the gems - his son; and asks him which one would his wife want him to value more).
The palantir scene, unfortunately, is not shown completely - PJ and Philippa Boyens obviously decided to show us only a few shots of it. And, even though the shots seem awesome, I still wish they had shown more of the palantir scene  :(
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 21. Okt 2015, 21:34
Thanks for info. :)

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 21. Okt 2015, 21:42
No problem  :). By the way, this is the thread in which the TORN user describes the deleted scenes from the Appendices, page 6 of the thread is where he describes the palantir scene and shows screenshots  ;).
http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=879060;page=6;sb=post_time;so=DESC;mh=25;
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 21. Okt 2015, 21:52
I think that you have messed with that link, I don't see it. xD
Or only I have problem with it?
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 21. Okt 2015, 22:35
I hadn't inserted the link, sorry  xD
I edited my post and you can see the link above  :).
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: korner am 22. Okt 2015, 23:38
the question is: why should that palantir be at Dol Guldur??

Maybe they deleted that scene simply because it doesn´t make any sense...
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 23. Okt 2015, 00:06
the question is: why should that palantir be at Dol Guldur??

Maybe they deleted that scene simply because it doesn´t make any sense...
Well at least they deleted it after all. because it's totally nonsense  [ugly]
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 23. Okt 2015, 06:07
^^PJ has said in the Chronicles books and the Appendices that he interpreted Dol Guldur as an abandoned Numenorian fortress that has fallen into ruin. So he and Philippa Boyens imagined a palantir could also have been there. Personally I have no problem with this, in fact I would have loved to see both the scene with the vision and the palantir from close  :).
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Thartom am 23. Okt 2015, 18:54
But isnt it a bit unlogical that in DG should stand a Palantir? I mean, lets see, there are 7 stones in middle-earth at all:

- one is in Minas Morgul. Nobody was ever interested in removing then.
1
- one in in Minas Tirith. The governors would never give it away.
2
-one is in Isengard. Saruman wouldnt dare to give his artefact away neither.
3
- two are lost in the ocean when avendui and his ship sank.
5
- one stone has fallen into the Anduin when Osgiliath was destroyed.
6
- one was placed near Lindon and couldnt be used to communicate with the other Palantiri.
7
So there is no Stone with unknown place that could have been kept secret in Dol Guldur. It´s a bit like the idea of the duel between Gandalf and Sauron: In cinema it looks cool, but if you think twice about it, you cant combine the "old" middle-earth with almost no visible magic and with the "cinema" middle-earth where whole stone walls get destroyed in seconds.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 23. Okt 2015, 19:21
I think the intent was that a palantir wasn't placed in Isengard in the movies, it was placed long ago in Dol Guldur. As its Numenorian inhabitants left the fortress they left behind the palantir (due to unknown reasons) and much later, after the Necromancer had come, after Gandalf sees the vision with Smaug, and after the White Council battle, Saruman would see the palantir and take it to Isengard. This theory would also give a more logical reason for Gandalf in FOTR to say 'The palantir is a dangerous tool'. I may be wrong, but I think this was PJ's intent.
And in any way, PJ has said that they always try to add more of Tolkien's locations in the movies and enhance their stories (thus the scene with Gundabad). I may be the only one but I like PJ's interpretation of Dol Guldur - a ruined, abandoned Numenorian fortress hosting a forgotten palantir.  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Thartom am 23. Okt 2015, 19:39
I like the design of Dol Guldur as destroyed fortress too, but the point is it wasnt built by the numenorians. I think the elves, especially the "patriotic" Thranduil, would never have allowed a human´s fortress right there in the middle of their kingdom. And the elves could defend themselves very well even without help, why need a fortress there?
Moreover, even though Tranduil isnt that much interested in the world outside his forest, would he really leave such a treasure behind (and the elves would have found the Palantir in the abandoned ruins)? And think about this: Sauron broke even Saruman, prevents him from doing the same with a normal elf, when the king tried to use the stone?
Besides that the numenorians would never leave such a thing behind, they also didnt throw away the Orthanc-Stone when they had no use for it at the moment, they still protected it very well by sealing the tower where it was placed.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 23. Okt 2015, 20:15
In the movies Dol Guldur is an old Numenorian fortress - PJ said it in the Appendices and Chronicles books.
My theory is that some Numenorians from Arnor accompanied the Elves (Thranduil and his father) on their journey east to Mirkwood. Dol Guldur still was Oropher's home, but it was probably built by the Numenoreans in movie lore.
And about the palantir, they didn't know Sauron could return. Probably the grief-stricken Thranduil just moved north, and Dol Guldur over time became abandoned, I don't think Thranduil would know the power of the palantir, or he wouldn't care about it, so it was left there.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Okt 2015, 20:20
So there is no Stone with unknown place that could have been kept secret in Dol Guldur. It´s a bit like the idea of the duel between Gandalf and Sauron: In cinema it looks cool, but if you think twice about it, you cant combine the "old" middle-earth with almost no visible magic and with the "cinema" middle-earth where whole stone walls get destroyed in seconds.


Yes, if we strictly refer to the pure graphical outcome of that confrontation, many things could be said.

But, if you deeply look into the roots and pillars of Middle Earth and Arda, you will see that destructive displays of Magic from magical beings (as Tolkien intended Magic) are really evocative and significant displays of their inner superior Nature.
Gandalf, as an Istar, is nonetheless allowed to use directly and destructively Magic to defend himself from imminent and definitely beyond-normality threats.

These types of usage of Magic were naturally more frequent and common in the Elder Days and before, when the World was still 'Young' and not disenchanted and slowly corrupted like in the late Third Age; although, even in the Third Age, we can behold pure Magic in its destructive form, when our Galadriel, for example, made her last act of Power and threw down the Walls of Dol Guldur and purified it from the Memory of Sauron  8-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Thartom am 23. Okt 2015, 20:41
But one more thing: Wasnt it said that Saruman got his Palantir when the actual governor gave him the keys to Orthanc? The movies may change some things for making the story more interesting, but I´m pretty sure that in Dol Guldur was never a Palantir.
And about the magic: First, i only thought about the late third age. Of course there would be by far more and better visual effects in a "correct" film about the first age (only think about the dragon-sizes-picture), but in the third age there was no need and therefore no use of spectacular magic.
Second, i am not sure if Galadriel really destroyed the ruins with sheer magic. Somebody else brought up the idea, that it was Galadriel and her followers who destroyed the remains of Sauron´s fortress.
And at last about the istari and their restrictions: Wouldnt that mean that the five isaris could have simply walked to Mordor and defeat the Dark Lord in a direct confrontation? I mean Sauron was even more than a "normal" thread, he was born of the mistakes the Valar made in handling Melkor.
And if they could use their power against higher beings, why didnt Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast stick together to kill the balrog? Because if i remember it right, the White Council was quite worried about that thing living in Moria.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 23. Okt 2015, 21:03
Well PJ sometimes changes the lore quite a bit, it's not unreasonable to think a palantir could have been in Dol Guldur, at least in Jackson's interpretation.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Thartom am 23. Okt 2015, 22:15
When i hear "PJs interpretation" i must think about Smaug´s death-scene, Alfred´s moments and a troll imitating a battering ram, but also about a melting dwarvenstatue, a company of dwarves singing at a fireplace and Gollum playing the riddle-game with Bilbo.
Let´s just say that some of PJs changes and ideas are good and some of them are bad. For me a Palantir in Dol Guldur sounds like a bad idea because it destroys the great feeling of uniqueness that the Orthanc-Palantir has.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 23. Okt 2015, 23:40
^^Well everyone has their own opinions: you don't like the idea of a palantir in Dol Guldur, but I like it very much  :).
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: bookworm1138 am 25. Okt 2015, 00:28
i like so far how the Edain team has striven to make a good balance between the books and the movies, while deferring to the books in points of contention. but this to me is kind of like the Aragorn vs. Sauron battle from Return of the King that was scraped and a troll (Mollok, or "the Sauron troll" as i call him) was placed over Sauron, or Arwen going to Helm's Deep with the Elven army.

i know that, in the Hobbit movies, PJ and Co. rewrote the War in the North and the fall of Minas Ithil in order to have their little "Nazgul tomb" scene. therefore, this could not be the Ithil-stone since, in PJ's world, the Nazgul never besieged Minas Ithil after the fall of Angmar: they just sat in their "tombs" twiddling their thumbs because they couldn't die and the screenwriter ruined the lore!.

however, saying that this is, by some miracle, the Ithil-stone that we see in this scene, it begs one to reason why the White Council didn't take it with them after driving Sauron out of Dol Guldur (we see in the Return of the King movie, when Aragorn looks into the palantir of Minas Anor, Sauron in his armored form holding the Ithil-stone).

in conclusion, this was a potentially problematic scene that PJ and Co. thankfully had the proper sense to abstain from...if only they had the foresight to be as tempered with the other problematic scenes that made it into the final cut
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 25. Okt 2015, 00:41
I don't think it is the Ithil stone; it's more logical if it was the Osgiliath palantir, since it was 'lost' at the time.
Also, in case you didn't see, the palantir is covered in dust and looks coloured like the statue itself, like an ornament. Maybe they didn't notice it, or didn't pay attention because their focus was taking Galadriel to Lorien?
Another possibility is that in the movies the Orthanc-stone wasn't located in Isengard at first - PJ may have placed it in Dol Guldur instead, and maybe after the White Council fight Saruman sees the palantir and takes it to Isengard.
In any case, I don't think this is a bad scene. It's actually a scene I wanted to see in DOS Extended Edition really bad.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 29. Okt 2015, 10:03
Full scenes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHDjX-pzrD0
(thanks to AndyBrandy who posted it on moddb)

Reactions?  8-|
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 29. Okt 2015, 10:56

Very nice video, I have to say  :)

Galadriel has always been of a gentle yet fierce and resolute Nature.
So, the 'Cruelty' that she displayed against the Guardian Orc of Dol Guldur could be theoretically explained within the traits of her character.
The music rightly epically emphasises that moment  8-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 29. Okt 2015, 11:21
Even though I love the new scenes, the movie still left no closure to the Men of Laketown and the Gems of Lasgalen.
However, according to the Appendices, they did shoot closure on both of these stories - do you remember that Bilbo was going to plant the acorn in Dale? They DID shoot that scene (and it's a really beautiful scene), and in it Bard also explains his intentions, what will happen to his people - they will rebuild Dale.
Also, right after Legolas stops Thranduil from killing Tauriel and says 'I will go with you', Gandalf appears and tells Thranduil 'These gems were not all your wife left you, my friend - she left you a son! Tell me which would she have you value more?', and Thranduil looks up, realising that he doesn't need the gems, but he needs his son; even though this scene is fifteen seconds, it also is quite emotional.
I think these scenes would have made the movie a lot better, they are really great imo; but both of them got cut  :(.
Here are they:
Bilbo plants the acorn: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bgkaTRG9b3Y
Gandalf's speech to Thranduil: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NVHutQQDRFY
What do you guys think?  8-|
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 29. Okt 2015, 11:44
I really regret that PJ left such beautifull and meaningfull scenes full of wisdom and dramtic moments out for showing like more Alfrid and Legolas !
Thise scences should ahve beenthe first to be included along with proper Dian Coronation and may some more ofthe Funeral and somethgin like Bard coronation and so much other better stuff! :(
I have watched the Acron Scene but the Thranduil one I haven't
Thank you ThorinNemesiss for sharing this! :)

Greetings! :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 29. Okt 2015, 11:54
Zitat
I really regret that PJ left such beautifull and meaningfull scenes full of wisdom and dramtic moments out for showing like more Alfrid and Legolas !
Yes, you are right. This is just a beautiful scene. Personally i think its one of the best scenes in the movies. Sadly....
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 29. Okt 2015, 12:01
Absolutely agree!
The Acorn Scene and the Gems Scene are deffinetely one of the highlights of the Hobbit Trilogy if not one of the best everr ! :) They deserved a place there more than most EE scenes included! :(

I just can't think why PJ delted them from the EE!  :(
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 29. Okt 2015, 12:06
^^Ealendril, I completely agree with you, that scene could have been the best scene of BOTFA  :(.
^No problem, LordDain, I always look for this kind of scenes in the Hobbit anyway  ;)
About the coronation of Dain, I agree - I was imagining all the main characters standing near the Throne of Erebor, then Dain comes in, wearing the King's robes, sits on the Throne, and Balin coronates him - abd then the 'Long live the King!' part. I mean, his coronation scene during the funeral was nice, but imo not enough  8-|
And if we start on unfinished plots, there are quite some -
1.What is Sauron's plan and why does he want Smaug and Erebor? - this was easily fixable - the palantir vision scene that should have been in DOS could have explained everything clearly without leaving the people wondering.
2.Why didn't they show at least a few seconds-scene of Smaug destroying the Windlance, after all the build-up it got neglected? - only a few seconds, Smaug could see the Windlance and destroy it, and after Bard sees it destroyed, he goes to the Belltower.
3.I am very grateful that PJ showed us a short glimpse of the Kingdom of Angmar, I like that realm. But he could have explained it more to the casual viewer; for example, when Gandalf is talking about Angmar with Bard and Thranduil, he could explain the story of Angmar to Bard, and then PJ could show a flashback showing its history, the war with Arnor, and most importantly - that flashback could have been an opportunity to explain the story of Thranduil's dead wife.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Hobbit movies - actually they are my favorite movies ever!  xD
But, maybe if the stories I mentioned had been more developed, the movies could have been so much better.  :(
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 29. Okt 2015, 13:11
I'm quite disappointed by this extended edition...  :(
What did we get? 20 minutes of ... some ridiculous scenes (Alfrid's scene is a shame, not to mention Legolas'), "more" Smaug and Beorn (c'mon, both barely got 10 additional seconds on screen), really weird concepts (that troll with no foot and no arm... wtf can't unsee it and the one in Alfrid scene isn't better; other trolls/halftrolls are just ok, no more) and a way too short funeral/coronation scene.
Still, I liked the battle between dwarves and elves, some new battle scenes and the battlewagon scene, even if it's far from perfect. The only close to perfect scene is the dicussion between Bofur and Bilbo: I love that one. Too bad they deleted scenes like the one you guys mentioned...
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 29. Okt 2015, 15:53
you and me both mate im so disappointed by the EE and i saw some deleted scenes that i was thinking they are going to appear in the movie but they did not
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: aminetude am 13. Nov 2015, 19:29
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLQZVYquPdI
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Nov 2015, 19:45
My post on ModDB  :)

Zitat
If you are interested, this is the 'behind the scenes' and the conceivement history of the Dol Guldur plot, involving the setting, the conceptual aspects of the characters and the plot's development itself.

Especially, from 18.47 there is the rough and non-CGI shooting of the Banishment of Sauron, the most memorable acting moment of the Hobbit trilogy, according to John Howe, the conceptual designer ;)

I hope that, if anyone had doubts, you will change idea a bit about Drowned/Seaweed Galadriel :)

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 20. Nov 2015, 19:01
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQkygZdZ_Vk
Alright, so with some bonus content surfacing with the extended edition, it's clearly stated by PJ himself that filming the Hobbit was next to a disaster.
The sudden change in director, and the complete shift in the vision of the movie has left barely any time for planning and preproduction, quite unlike in LOTR where it was one of the best planned and prepared 3 movies ever!

What does everyone think? Does that elevate some of the fan flame off Peter? Do you think that the studio should have cooperated more with PJ regarding time delays?

For me I think Peter would have a quite better result if he had the time to prepare. Especially with the Battle of Five Armies which was the least well received among the 3 Hobbit movies.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 20. Nov 2015, 19:41
The sudden change in director, and the complete shift in the vision of the movie has left barely any time for planning and preproduction, quite unlike in LOTR where it was one of the best planned and prepared 3 movies ever!


Simply perfect words!
I too have always admired how everything is nearly closed to a perfect harmony in LOTR when we talk about coherence, continuity and circularity of the whole ensemble.
A 10-hour-long ensemble magnificently managed to be a masterpiece worthy of the Annals of Motion Picture.

Sadly, the difference is evidently clear regarding the Hobbit trilogy.
It's such a pity that it could have turned out to be far greater than it has been...
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 20. Nov 2015, 20:01
I personally think it was not that much of a disaster, despite the criticisms. If I had to summarize my feelings in one sentence, it would be :"It could have been so fucking better".
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: lotr1997 am 20. Nov 2015, 20:12
It truly was not that bad. Sure the story was not really to close to the book but if you want that watch the animated version. The movies dialogue was not great but also not bad. the story line i felt was very good and the White Council Vs the Nazgul and Sauron was pretty cool. So all in all i would give these movies each one an 8/10.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 20. Nov 2015, 20:19
a 8/10 is that a joke man the movies were perfectly directed and you saw the problems P.J. had when he was making the movies even the kids were good at acting the world of the movie is awesome, and so what if the movies wasn't like the book if it were like the book as a movie it would not be good as it is now any way ony the hype for thorin wasn't that good and it wasn't PJ who did that in the first place   i know dain should be the one who kills the pale orc and leads the dwarfs to victory.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 20. Nov 2015, 20:25
I don't think the movie itself is a disaster. But the process of making it was. barely any planning at all. but yeah it
Zitat
could have been so fucking better

EDIT:
Zitat
a 8/10 is that a joke man the movies were perfectly directed
Well BOFA got a 60% on rotten tomatoes (6/10), and it was faaaar faaaar from perfectly directed. The movie is filled with nonsense.
It's not a BAD movie, BUT it could have been much better.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: lotr1997 am 20. Nov 2015, 20:58
They were not perfectly directed and i said it is better that it is not an exact copy of the book. It could have been better and 8/10 is a very good rating.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 20. Nov 2015, 22:36
they dint have time as hoho said and if P.J. was a bad director the movie could be worst
P.J. is a good director so that's why wee got the movie wee got but still he dint do what he wanted he had no prep time. 
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: lotr1997 am 20. Nov 2015, 22:59
i agree and i love the Hobbit Films  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 20. Nov 2015, 23:04
i know they were grate movies.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: aminetude am 26. Nov 2015, 19:26
Some of that deleted scene:
https://www.facebook.com/1521511808125279/videos/1668518903424568/
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: CragLord am 26. Nov 2015, 19:36
Oh, thanks for this man. :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: aminetude am 26. Nov 2015, 19:52
Oh, thanks for this man. :)
You're most welcome my dear  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 26. Nov 2015, 21:39
I merged the Palantír scene thread with the general and main BOTFA EE thread, so that everything (since the general context is the same) will remain orderly gathered in this thread according to this very interesting topic  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 4. Dez 2015, 22:22
Here is something for Lord of the Iron Hills from the EE Extra Materials,hope you guys enjoy it! :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGMfwYmZ6mQ
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 7. Dez 2015, 15:27
So much time has passed from the release of DOS Extended Edition, but ever after I heard of the palantir scene I still deeply regret that it wasn't in the movie!  :( It would have been a very interesting scene, for what reason did PJ choose to cut it out?!  :(

Anyway, in my opinion AUJ didn't miss any deleted scenes, but here is my wishlist for scenes that should have been in the DOS and BOTFA EEs:
DOS:
-The palantir scene (of course  :( )
-The Dwarves passing through Dale scene (it would have been great, can't imagine why PJ didn't include it)
-The scene where two grannies throw an egg at Alfrid (I know this may be stupid, but this way Alfrid gets what he deserves  :D)

BOTFA:
-Destruction of the Windlance
-Smaug destroying the bridge out of Laketown (this was actually shot, but deleted, sadly)
-A flashback during Gandalf, Bard and Thranduil's conversation scene showing more of the the history of Angmar (I made up this scene in my mind; but it could explain some major plot holes, and it could show Thranduil's wife's death, so it could have been nice  :) )
-The acorn scene (again, a beautiful scene, pity that it wasn't in the EE)
-Gandalf telling Thranduil that his wife would want him to value Legolas more than the gems of lasgalen (same case as the acorn and palantir scenes)
-The funny moment between Thranduil and Gloin (this is described in the Art and Design book of BOTFA: Gloin was going to kill a group of orcs in Dale, but then Thranduil sweeps in and quickly beheads them, saying 'Keep up, Dwarf.' ; this was going to be similar to Legolas and Gimli's rivalry in LOTR  :P )
-The death of the White warg (maybe when the Durins arrive at Ravenhill the White warg jumps on Kili trying to kill him, then Fili drives his sword through her head, moves away her corpse and gives Kili a hand, 'Up on your feet, brother.' and then the scene continues as it is in the movie)
-The scene where Beorn kills the troll in bear form (this scene was about two minutes, but it was great, and it would have solved the issue of Beorn's little screen time)
-Gandalf's speech at the funeral; and last but not least
-Bilbo finding the treasure chest hidden in the Trollshaws

Also, I haven't watched the Appendices of BOTFA yet, so can anyone who has tell me: how much of the palantir scene is shown? Like, is all of Gandalf's part in the scene shown for example?
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Dez 2015, 01:48

Very just and detailed list indeed  ;)

If I'm not wrong, the scene must be present in this behind-the-scenes footage about Dol Guldur (sorry, but I don't remember exactly the moment).

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 9. Dez 2015, 16:31
Thanks for the behind the scenes footage  :).
I can't wait to get my copy of BOTFA EE so I can watch the Appendices, including the palantir scene footage  xD.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 7. Jan 2016, 23:23
So, after watching the Appendices of BOTFA more thoroughly, I found quite some interesting things.
Let's start with some locations: did you guys know that we have actually seen the Blue Mountains and the Iron Hills in the Hobbit movies? First - the short scene where the large groups of Dwarves walks through a hilly land full of lakes and Bilbo says 'Robbed of their homeland,...' is actually meant to be the Iron Hills! And the scene where Thorin points at some snowcapped Mountains while Bilbo says 'The young Dwarf prince took work where he could find it,...' is taking place in the Blue Mountains!
The Appendices also imply that the bigger part of the Erebor survivors settled in the Iron Hills after the Battle of Moria, while the other smaller part, led by Thorin, settles in the Blue Mountains (and a map in the Appendices might tell that Thorin's group of survivors split to live in two or three places in the northern Ered Luin, and one of those places is north of the Little Lune river); Richard Armitage also jokes that, of the hundreds of survivors that came to the Blue Mountains, only three or four of them are Dwarf-women with whom they would populate their new realm  :D.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 8. Jan 2016, 08:26
That is some realyl cool andi nteresting info! I alwasy dreamed of seing Dwarven Fotresses of Blue Mountains and Iron Hills in Movie or at least the Regions! :)

Well we already knew that the biggest part of Erebor Survivors went to Iron Hills! But the other Infor about EL is really interesting and hah the joke,well the are 3-4 and not to mention not the pritiest among the Womans :D No wonder Kili fell in love with an Elf  :D :D :D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 8. Jan 2016, 08:41
No wonder Kili fell in love with an Elf  :D :D :D
I completely agree  :D :D :D.

Talking about Dwarven stuff, I saw in the Appendices that Lee Pace was impressed by the work of the people who made different weapons and costumes for the movies, so he gave it a try too, and he was very good at it! For example, those awesome Weta boar-listas - Lee Pace actually made some of them!  :)
And in DOS when Thorin implied that the Erebor survivors came to ask Thranduil for help - that scene was filmed and you can see small bits of it in the Appendices in which the survivors pass through the Greenwood.  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Jan 2016, 08:46
Speaking about subtle hints and references in the Hobbit trilogy, I noticed that, when Elrond examines Glamdring in AUJ, he obviously recognised the sword of Turgon, and he starts saying in the background of the voices something like ''These swords were made for the Wars...'' and then you can't anymore hear things clearly.

I think that it would have been nice hearing some legendary tales of the First Age, or just some references about them, in the Hobbit, especially by one as Elrond who partially experienced those events directly  :)

Just as Galadriel mentions Morgoth in the confrontation with Sauron in Dol Guldur.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 8. Jan 2016, 08:51
I actually had noticed Elrond saying that, but I didn't know what he meant until now  :). You're right, some First Age history would have been nice, especially in AUJ.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Jan 2016, 08:59
Elrond himself tells the Council, in the books, that he was there, during the War of Wrath, beholding the mighty and holy Host of the Valar engaging battle in Beleriand...

Yes, I wouldn't mind listening to Elrond's tales entire days  :P
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Fredius am 8. Jan 2016, 13:02
The reason that they didn't let the viewer hear about those tales of the first age is that they dont have the rights to the Silmarillion. Therefore only that small hint is given. Same goes for the names of the Blue Wizards, their names are known (Allatar and Pallando), but PJ is not allowed to give them. That's why Gandalf "forgot" their names.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Jan 2016, 16:26
Yes, I knew about those two, but it was, I think, because their true names are specifically mentioned only in the Silmarillion.

What I meant was some little and general references about the War of the Jewels.
In LOTR and, especially, in the Appendices, there are summaries as well about the First Age and the main 'mechanism' that characterised the events of that time, based on the direct or indirect eternal fight between Morgoth and the Valar/Eldar, with various unexpected elements here and there as it often happens in the narration.

In the Appendices is summarily mentioned the tale of the Downfall of Númenor too, and, along with the events mentioned above regarding the Elder Days, these references are periodically hinted at by Tolkien (via his characters) to always highlight the importance that those 'mythological' facts had for the course of the History of Arda (the traditional mythological references to the Ancient Past that we often find in ancient/classical literature).

Obviously, there are not many specific names, or every character of the very Silmarillion, and it would have rightly been illegal referring to them.
But, I think that a general summary in form of memories of the Past would have been fine; probably, they made Elrond stop just to not confuse people with more events and names (and with a Dark Lord greater than Sauron)  xD
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Fredius am 8. Jan 2016, 17:45
It could also be a little teaser so that people will search about it on the internet xD.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: NetoD20 am 8. Jan 2016, 20:26
And then we'd have more friends talking about it here ^__^
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Jan 2016, 20:41
And then we'd have more friends talking about it here ^__^


Of course  8-)
That is the way via which many of us ended up here  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jan 2016, 01:56
As you can see, I changed the title of the thread in 'The Hobbit Trilogy', to give it a more general range involving all the three chapters of the cinematographic adaptations of the Hobbit.
A lot of posts related to the other two films and not only to the last one (EE version).
Therefore, I felt it will be much more useful and interesting if the debate becomes broader  :)

And, I also merged the thread which dealt with the 'sins' of these films with this main one, since it basically referred to similar matters as these.

http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30896.msg390958.html#msg390958

I wish you all and myself a good discussion  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 20. Jan 2016, 16:35
I have to say that, in complete honesty, I enjoyed the trilogy. It was so nice to have back the feeling of being transported to Middle Earth, to see again some iconic characters like Bilbo, Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel, and being presented new ones, like Thorin and his company. Rediscovering enchanted places like the Shire and Rivendell was heart-warming, and descovering new ones such as Erebor, Mirkwood and Lake-Town has been intriguing and interesting.

Yes, indeed there have been some choices in the realization that left me a bit baffed, some even slightly disappointed me, but in the end not that much, as I do enjoy variations. I can see that Weta's team had wanted to have quite fun with these movies and many things were a bit over the top, especially in the last chapter, but that's not really news (if one thinks King Kong).

Overall, the Hobbit Trilogy has satisfied me. Despite everything, it has been a memorable jump back to Middle Earth.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 20. Jan 2016, 17:09
I have to say that, in complete honesty, I enjoyed the trilogy. It was so nice to have back the feeling of being transported to Middle Earth, to see again some iconic characters like Bilbo, Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel, and being presented new ones, like Thorin and his company. Rediscovering enchanted places like the Shire and Rivendell was heart-warming, and descovering new ones such as Erebor, Mirkwood and Lake-Town has been intriguing and interesting.


I totally agree with you, and I think that this has also been one of the main reasons why the majority of the fans holistically liked the trilogy.
Perfect words, nothing to add about it  :)

Regarding the numerous flaws of the trilogy, you can see throughout the Internet and in this very same thread that a lot of different themes have been brought out, from technical aspects to conceptual ones.
And I would also like to focus on the inner 'spiritual' aspects of these films, that inevitably lacked many things and still don't totally reach the standards of the LOTR trilogy.

I mean, it's very clear to me, in watching and trying to make a fair comparison between the two trilogies, that there is a general different 'spirit' in LOTR, and that this spirit doesn't necessarily relate to the different characteristics of the events dealt with.
I believe that, whether PJ admits it or not, a lot more in terms of passion and accuracy (even if that means renouncing to grotesque elements and choosing strict creativity) was poured in the construction of LOTR; as if there had been the intention of reaching the best outcome possible in the first trilogy, while standards and boundaries regarding the second one were unchained and definitely wilder.

But, having that in mind, I too don't regret having watched the Hobbit and dived into Middle Earth once again  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 20. Jan 2016, 17:17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQkygZdZ_Vk

I personally think this video explains very well why The Hobbit was not as good as LotR.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 20. Jan 2016, 18:42
Well, tachnically speaking, the books aren't exactly comparable either, so it's even XD

I agree, the spirit changed, and probably people were less motivated, plus the rush and everything. I get that they could've gone other ways, make different choices and much more, but considering what they did, with what problems, deadlines and the rest, I really can't find it in me to blame them that much.
Whether they have 'flaws' or not I think it's mostly up to personal taste, for exemple many people didn't like Radagast, but I did, and really much .
I just enjoy both trilogies for what in my head is 'The Middle Earth Saga'.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 20. Jan 2016, 21:33
^Exactly what I think of the Hobbit trilogy as well  :).

I love the Hobbit movies and, no matter how strange it may sound, I actually find no flaws in it; that is my personal opinion, but I agree that with the circumstances PJ had, he really has made a great trilogy that is imo totally worthy and on level with Lotr.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 20. Jan 2016, 22:57
I feel quite the same! :-)

Although there are few things I quite disagree and don't approve so much,I too understand the situation PJ was left with the sudden leave of Del Toro and all he had to go trough! :-)

So for me the Movies were epic,perfect cast,perfect Visual from WETA on Armors,Costumes and etc.,perfect Music and Sounds by Shore and the Singers ,great Details and 3 Movies of Epic Middle Earth adventure is something that can never be bad in my eyes!I enjoyed the Hobbit Trilogy from the bottom of my heart,and it will remain as my favourite Movies alongside LOTR Trilogy! :-)

Greetings mates! :-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Adamin am 20. Jan 2016, 23:08
and choosing strict creativity

Interesting. What exactly did you mean by that?
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Jan 2016, 21:39
Interesting. What exactly did you mean by that?


Yes, maybe I used strict in a very cryptic way  xD

It's because I personally think that PJ managed to find a very well-thought equilibrium between his iconic interest in grotesque elements and the awareness that he was working on a trilogy (LOTR) about which the word solemn may be the most accurate adjective.

I mean, I believe that he intentionally chose to 'contain' his wildest and most disruptive fantasies (because he could have truly had the opportunity to unleash his creativity in the most bizarre ways, approaching to the events of LOTR), in a more conscious will of making a coherent and elegant outcome, mainly free from the exaggerations and disharmonious things that characterised the Hobbit trilogy.

Sometimes, elegance, coherence and perfection require less Quantity, in order to be of a higher Quality, and some boundaries are necessarily needed.
But, this is obviously an opinion of mine  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 26. Jan 2016, 20:17
More interesting stuff from the BOTFA Appendices xD:
Dol Guldur was, in movie lore, an old Gondorian fortress that was built as a guard-post along the Anduin (something like the Argonath), maybe during the end of the Second or the beginning of the Third Age. However, it was apparently abandoned (probably due to the Great Plague) and taken over by something very evil (you know what :P) a few centuries before the Hobbit, at which time it was repurposed and iron chains and spikes were added to the stone ruins to keep it all together from falling apart; also, sometime before it was reoccupied, the northern part of the Hill (opposite the bridge) took off, probably due to an earthquake, leaving the underground levels/pits of the fortress viewable (Dol Guldur is even referenced as having the overal look of a broken tooth because  of this), this can be seen during the wide shot of the fortress in the Extended Edition.
Also, the Appendices have digital maps of both Dol Guldur and the city of Dale, as well as some additional drawings by Alan Lee of Gondorian buildings in Dol Guldur; there is also a drawing of Thranduil's wife, who was probably a Sindarin Elf like him.
All these images you can find in my gallery on ModDB (there are about 12 images) here:
http://www.moddb.com/members/thorinsnemesis/images
There was also some additional info about the palantir - it was a relic from the  earlier script when the movies were just two, and it was intended to be the Ithil stone that either Sauron had stolen from the then-abandoned Minas Ithil, or when he revived the Nazgul they took Minas Ithil and brought him the palantir. Then, years after he was banished, when some of the Nazgul came to reclaim Dol Guldur the Ithil stone was transported to Barad-dur. In the movies the palantir would have been used to better establish the telephatic communication Sauron and Smaug had (and that's how Smaug knew about the 'Oakensheld' name and about the Dwarves' plan), and of course show the vision of Smaug leading the Orc armies. They really  should  have kept that  in, as it fixes one of the big plot holes in the Hobbit.
Also, there was at one point the intention that  Ori would give  Bilbo his portrait (the one old Bilbo holds in AUJ when he says 'I'm not the same hobbit I once was...') during Bilbo's parting with the  Dwarves, and Gloin and Nori would secretly tell Bilbo about the chest in the Trollshaws, but I don't know if these scenes were filmed.
And, the scene where Bilbo finds the treasure chest in the Trollshaws was filmed, you can actually see a shot of it during  the screenshot slideshow at the end of the Appendices Part 12.
However, I wasn't able to find a particular thing: I learned from the One Ring Forums that somewhere PJ mentioned the closure to the Morgul Blade subplot - Gandalf had been carrying it when he went to Dol Guldur, and they shot a  scene where, after Gandalf was defeated by Sauron in DOS, there was a 'frisking' scene before he was caged in, in which they found and took the Morgul Blade from him....
It's interesting how many nice scenes were filmed or planned but never included. The Hobbit is already a great trilogy (the  best movies imho :P) those scenes could have made the movies even more interesting.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Jan 2016, 12:46
Interesting new INfo but i kinda do not like the idea of Dol GUldur being originalyl Gondorian Fortress!

We have too much GOndorian Fortress taken by evil with time,it's like only OGndor Builds Fortress all over Middle Earth :D :D And Sauron and his minions can't build shit :D :D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Jan 2016, 13:03
i   thought Dol GUldur was an elven fortress ???
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Jan 2016, 13:09
In the Movie Lore it is said to be Gondorian my.friend! :-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 27. Jan 2016, 13:38
Well I like the idea of Dol Guldur being Gondorian, as John Howe and Alan Lee thought smartly about this.
For example, do you think that no one would suspect Sauron's return if a mysterious dark fortress was just built in the south of Mirkwood? At least Galadriel would have noticed it  :D. At least to me the idea of Sauron hiding and not being discovered in an abandoned Numenorian fortress sounds more possible; but everyone has an opinion, of course  :).
And, I think that the design of the ruined Dol Guldur looks amazing on film and very unique because of the strong triangular influence in the fortress (triangles are everywhere, as you can see on the maps I posted on ModDB  :)); if Dol Guldur was built by Sauron and his minions it would look more like Barad Dur, which wouldn't be very unique  ;).
And, if you think there is too much Gondorian buildings with Dol Guldur added, Alan Lee also adds that the Gondorians had colonized the southwestern shores of the Sea of Rhun where they even built a Seeing Seat  xD. But, since I really like the architecture and overall culture of Gondor, I don't mind seeing its influence throughout Middle-earth  :).
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Jan 2016, 13:43
The fortress wasn't just build by Sauron when he returned as Necromancer,it was the Capital of Greenwood the Great under Oropher ,Thranduil's father! So it was basically Elven and I really don't like the idea about Gondor,you see Minas Morgul was originally Gondorian as well as Isengard ,its too much to count Dol Guldur too ,it's like only Gondor build fortress and whenever they want to and then abandon then for the evil or someone else to use just like that! :-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Fine am 27. Jan 2016, 14:12
I don't think Dol Guldur is of gondorian origin, since the hill of Amon Lanc was once home to the Elves of the Woodland Realm ruled by Oropher, as Dáin correctly pointed out. So if there were any existing ruins there when Sauron first took dominion of Dol Guldur around 1000 TA they would have been of elven origin.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Jan 2016, 14:17
Dáin, it's not that Gondor abandoned those places, it's because this realm has always been quite overburdened with serious challenges and threats to its very existence  :)

Minas Ithil was violently attacked and had its nature horribly twisted by Magic; Orthanc was gently left to Saruman's care.

I don't know why, but I always feel very empathetic to Gondor's struggles  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Jan 2016, 14:20
It is absolutely not!It is just Movie Lore of PJ and WETA! :-)

Walkure my.friend I am well aware of that! But still it is too much to give Gondorian heritage of every Fortress out there! :-) That's all I mean,and DG is definitely not a good choice tobe said as Gondorian origin!
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Jan 2016, 14:24
Walkure my.friend I am well aware of that! But still it is too much to give Gondorian heritage of every Fortress out there! :-) That's all I mean,and DG is definitely not a good choice tobe said as Gondorian origin!


I didn't take part in the Dol Guldur debate.
I was just defending a bit Gondor's pride  :D
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Jan 2016, 14:30
Gondor has not pride,Gondor doesn't need pride!  [uglybunti] [uglybunti] [uglybunti]

Joke aside,Gondor has more than enough to be proud,being the strongest Kingdom of Men and Heirs if Numenor and being one of the Greatest Military especially after Arnor declining! :-)
They are amazing enough Kingdom without false and forced claiming over things which aren't theirs :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 27. Jan 2016, 15:10
Well, technically the Numenorian realms (Arnor and Gondor) didn't have every main city and fortress in Middle-earth, only Annuminas, Fornost, Weathertop, Minas Tirith, Osgiliath, Minas Ithil, Orthanc, Harlond, Pelargir, Dol Amroth, and Dol Guldur (in movie lore). I realise the Gondorian bastions are already a lot even without Dol Guldur, but the Numenoreans were a very powerful race after all, and having so much influence on Middle-earth is normal imo.
And, as I said, if Dol Guldur was built by evil forces instead, wouldn't people wonder: lol, that fortress looks quite evil, so how come no one suspects an evil entity inhabits it?  :P
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: FG15 am 27. Jan 2016, 15:21
I wouldn't call Harlond a fortress or city, it was only a harbour. And you have forgotten Helms Deep, which was also built by them. Furthermore, I would consider Tharabad as a main city, too.

Also, I don't really get, why the men should build a fortress at Dol Guldur. That doesn't make any sense for me. The fortress is completly inside a forest and there are nowhere nearby any cities or other important places for the Men of Gondor. Besides the fact, that Argonarth being the northern border of Gondor wouldn't make any sense at all.

Being an elven fortress as in the book would make so much more sense (except the design used in the movie).

For me it is the same with Mount Gundabad in the movie, it doesn't look dwarvish at all.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Jan 2016, 15:23
It was ruined and abounded before Sauron took refuge there and considering it was formerly Elven Capital it is enough rather than just giving it to Gondor! :-)

Well you basically listed all major Fortress Cities in West with exception of tue Dwarven ones  [uglybunti] So you get why I think it is too much to give DG too :-)

P.S. Completely agree with FG15 ,is saw his post now!I think the same! :-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 27. Jan 2016, 16:20
In the books I think that, when Amon Lanc was the capital of Oropher's realm, I always imagined that they didn't build their halls on top of the hill, maybe they made underground halls like the ones Thranduil moved to? Then, when they left their home under Amon Lanc, and the fortress was built atop it, the underground halls were probably used as pits or something like that; at least that's how I imagined Dol Guldur.  :)
Dol Guldur may be inside a forest, but it's really huge, and the intention probably was that you could see the Anduin and the Argonath from there (actually I think PJ and John Howe mentioned Dol Guldur as rather being a watch-post that served as a place where the Gondorians had sight of the lands, and if they saw something alarming like an army of the enemy, they would send a signal to the fortresses down the river (maybe in a way like the beacons?)). And also, we don't know when Dol Guldur was built and abandoned in the movies, so we might assume that Argonath was still the northern border before Dol Guldur was built and after it was abandoned (probably some time early during the Great Plague).
An Elven fortress might have been a good choice as well, but since the Sindar and Silvan Elves weren't exactly known for building large fortresses overground (instead choosing the underground caves and small forest settlements) I can't imagine what Dol Guldur would look like if it was Elvish.

About Mount Gundabad, I may be wrong, but I think in the books Mount Gundabad was never a large and important Dwarven fortress like Moria or Erebor, instead it was smaller and I think the Dwarves held meetings there but didn't turn much attention to its architecture or defence like they did with Erebor and Moria. If you mean the red Iron spikes atop the Mountain in the movies, Philippa Boyens talked that when the Orcs took over the fortress they built the iron stuff as their own symbol of power over it; and if you look closely when the gate opens and Bolg's army goes out, you can see withered Dwarven angular marks around the gate, and the inside of the fortress was undoubtedly Dwarvish. It's just that either the Dwarves didn't build anything big on the outside, or the Orcs destroyed it and replaced it with iron.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Fredius am 29. Jan 2016, 22:51
Don't know about you guys but I think the Hobbit is far superior with it's orcs than LOTR. Instead of "just" killing machines they are actually killing machines with a culture. They speak their own language (even speaking at all is very rare for an orc in LOTR xD) and they have their own goals and hierarchical structure. I really loved that in the trilogy.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 29. Jan 2016, 23:08
I agree, at a certain extent.

The usage of Black Speech was indeed a step forward in the representation of the Orcs; nothing to say about it.
Just, one could also say that the same Orcs are better represented in LOTR, graphically speaking, being also much more frightening in their very appearance.
For example, I was a bit shocked, as a child, when I had seen for the first time the Goblins of Moria in FOTR, as if they were a seriously dreadful threat  [ugly]
Nevertheless, PJ was totally right in implementing their true language.

If you want, you could also start a debate in the LOTR thread about the general representation and display of Orcs on the big screen.
We could start a war between these two threads, the Hobbit and LOTR  :D

Besides, I really want you active there as well, we need you  :P

#WeNeedFredius  8-)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 29. Jan 2016, 23:33
Objection to this statement! xD
I agree that there are new orcish aspects in the Hobbit movies that weren't in the LotR-trilogy. However first of all: Do orcs even need this? My point is that orcs are the evil forces' henchmen and they make great side-villains, but from a storytelling aspect, they are incredible dull as primary antagonists -the thing is they are little more than tools for Sauron and others, I would argue they were never meant to play a real villain role and simply not able to fullfill this role. So: Yes, you are right. But I don't see the appeal of orc based primary-villains, therefore it isn't a necessary advance in my opinion. ;)
And yeah (let the hate flow through me^^): I found this black speech annoying as hell! First of all, I'd like to understand what characters are saying. Second of all, untill Azog started speaking black speechish only Sauron ever used it and it was massively cooler that way. Thirdly the Black Speech isn't really the global language of evil things, it's something Sauron developt, but the orcs never used this as a primary language, especially not the Misty Mountain orcs, as far as I know. And lastly, being the most glaring problem, I don't see how this Black Speech added anything to the movie or Azogs character. He just kind of does it and it isn't an improvement for the audiance. So why do it in the first place if it makes himself constantly incomprehensible.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: And about the graphical implementation: I can hardly agree more with DieWalküre.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: RiderOfRohan am 30. Jan 2016, 00:10
Objection to this statement! xD
I agree that there are new orcish aspects in the Hobbit movies that weren't in the LotR-trilogy. However first of all: Do orcs even need this? My point is that orcs are the evil forces' henchmen and they make great side-villains, but from a storytelling aspect, they are incredible dull as primary antagonists -the thing is they are little more than tools for Sauron and others, I would argue they were never meant to play a real villain role and simply not able to fullfill this role. So: Yes, you are right. But I don't see the appeal of orc based primary-villains, therefore it isn't a necessary advance in my opinion. ;)
And yeah (let the hate flow through me^^): I found this black speech annoying as hell! First of all, I'd like to understand what characters are saying. Second of all, untill Azog started speaking black speechish only Sauron ever used it and it was massively cooler that way. Thirdly the Black Speech isn't really the global language of evil things, it's something Sauron developt, but the orcs never used this as a primary language, especially not the Misty Mountain orcs, as far as I know. And lastly, being the most glaring problem, I don't see how this Black Speech added anything to the movie or Azogs character. He just kind of does it and it isn't an improvement for the audiance. So why do it in the first place if it makes himself constantly incomprehensible.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: And about the graphical implementation: I can hardly agree more with DieWalküre.

Sauron created the Black Speech to be the unifying language of all the servants of Mordor, Many Orkish dialects had adopted words from the Black Speech so it would make sense to me to have it even for the broken orc tribes in the north.
Pure Black Speech was spoken by Sauron, the Olog-hai, and the Nazgul, so it would make sense that Azog, a high ranking orc leader would be speaking it, especially since in the movie he was seen speaking to the necromancer.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 30. Jan 2016, 00:14
Don't know about you guys but I think the Hobbit is far superior with it's orcs than LOTR. Instead of "just" killing machines they are actually killing machines with a culture. They speak their own language (even speaking at all is very rare for an orc in LOTR xD) and they have their own goals and hierarchical structure. I really loved that in the trilogy.
I absolutely and completely agree with you. Especially the inclusion of Black Speech for the orcs was a very interesting addition; and the Orcs' culture, especially the culture and outside architecture of Gundabad imo were really impressive.
While in LOTR the Goblins and Orcs were also cool, they spoke English instead, and weren't so 'developed'  as they are in the Hobbit; and, in my opinion the designs and armors of the orcs in the Hobbit movies was much more cool and impressive, I actually found the Orcs in the Hobbit a bit more scary/imposing than the ones in LOTR. :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: RiderOfRohan am 30. Jan 2016, 00:35
Don't know about you guys but I think the Hobbit is far superior with it's orcs than LOTR. Instead of "just" killing machines they are actually killing machines with a culture. They speak their own language (even speaking at all is very rare for an orc in LOTR xD) and they have their own goals and hierarchical structure. I really loved that in the trilogy.
I absolutely and completely agree with you. Especially the inclusion of Black Speech for the orcs was a very interesting addition; and the Orcs' culture, especially the culture and outside architecture of Gundabad imo were really impressive.
While in LOTR the Goblins and Orcs were also cool, they spoke English instead, and weren't so 'developed'  as they are in the Hobbit; and, in my opinion the designs and armors of the orcs in the Hobbit movies was much more cool and impressive, I actually found the Orcs in the Hobbit a bit more scary/imposing than the ones in LOTR. :)

I disagree on the Hobbit orcs being cooler than the LOTR ones, but it's just personal preference. But I do agree that the Hobbit orcs were more distinctive than the ones in LOTR.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 30. Jan 2016, 00:57

I firmly disagree with you, Melkor, about the Black Speech  :)

What could, more than a language, express the specific traits of a culture?
And, since never have languages been without reason or superficial additions in Tolkien's production, languages themselves are a precious symbol of each race's nature, in my opinion; from the solemnity of Quenya, to the repulsive and 'heavy' sound of Black Speech.
There is always a logic.

Speaking about the films, the intention was truly showing that we would have approached to something different from our common 'human perspective'; just like Elvish is beautifully used in LOTR to give anything related to it a deeper and sacred essence and atmosphere.

Therefore, it could be seen as one of the very few aspects of the Hobbit trilogy that we shouldn't be afraid to consider superior to other ones of the previous trilogy  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Fredius am 30. Jan 2016, 14:28
Heheh sorry my friends I'm pretty busy right now so I can't be as much online as I would like :).

First of all, some Orcs in the Hobbit are my favorite in appearance, and are imo better than in LOTR. However, characters like Bolg look far worse than I've ever seen in both trilogies. Never liked his appearance. The Dol Guldur Orcs are my favorite orc army because of the awesome armor they have, and I've never seen a better looking Orc in both trilogies than armored Azog. Though I wish they used this concept for his general appearance instead:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3k6HrxCQAA5Erg.jpg)

The black language sounds great to me, it indeed fleshes out the culture of the Orcs like Walk said. Thorins Nemesis you took the words out of my mind: The orcs in the LOTR arent so well developed as in the Hobbit. Melkor, even if Orcs are just tools to the evil forces, they are still living beings, and not just meat bags. The Hobbit presented us that even these tools have their own minds and agenda. And the Black Speech doesnt add anything to Azog? It makes him unique and gives him a more frightening appearance. Imagine him speaking English :D (or German in your case).
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 31. Jan 2016, 17:08
I do completely agree with Freidus, the Orcs in the Hobbit were well-rounded characters that really gave off the feeling of being actually...well, characters.

While I utterly love how LOTR portrayed Orcs, as said in the Hobbit they are more...I daresay real, and really gave off the feeling of being threatening. Not creepy or scary, gotta give that one to the Moria Orcs, but a threat in the military sense, plus a threat that has a mind of its own; true, they are slaves of the Dark Powers, but a slave's not a robot, having a mind of his own, and they managed to remain a threat enough to unite under an Orc leader and wreack havock without any fallen angel/god directly guiding their hand. Plus, gotta hand it to Azog and Bolg, they were the only villain Orc to last more than one movie XD (there could be Ugluk, who was technically present in FOTR, but was not seen until Two Towers)

About the Black Speech, I believe it does tie things together and indeed fleshes out their culture, and still Fredius is right when he says it makes them more threatening than speaking english/whatever other language. Technically, it makes them completely inhuman (which was the conceptual purpose behind every single evil race movie-wise, harad and rhun included), but to a bad inclination, unlike Elves that are also more than human, but look fair and do speak languages of Men.

Its kind of a different, more daring approach to the matter than LOTR, but I like both of them anyway :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Adamin am 31. Jan 2016, 17:16
The Hobbit movies actually do differentiate between pure Black Speech and Orcish.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 31. Jan 2016, 22:55
Alright, here's my opinion about the Black Speech in the movies;
As said before, Sauron created the Black Speech as a language for all evil. However the Orcs (from north of Angmar to the south of Mordor) NEVER really grasped that language. The Orcs had many many different tribes and local languages and dialects which made it impossible for them to commun in something as complicated as the Black Speech (complicated because it's believed to be derived from Elvish). That's why MOST Orcs in the vast armies of Mordor, and caves of the Misty Mountains actually used the common tongue because it presented a simple easy language that has been in use in Middle Earth for thousands of years.

That's canon, and it's not negotiable!  [ugly]

Anyway, from a movie critic point of view, I'm OK with Azong talking Black Speech. But why would he talk black speech to the dwarves!!! I've never EVER heard that Black Speech is now the new trend and all of middle earth understand it!!
I was really annoyed when Azog speaks to Thorin in Black Speech (or Orcish speech or whatever) and somehow Thorin understands him  :-|
There's some black magic definitely at work...
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: lord_ellessar am 16. Mär 2016, 14:16
Am I alone to dislike the look of Radagast? Same for Bombur, the missing moustache of Balin (less now than before) the to human style of Fili and Kili, the beard of dori and the to little pig of Dain  :(
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Mär 2016, 14:36
Am I alone to dislike the look of Radagast? Same for Bombur, the missing moustache of Balin (less now than before) the to human style of Fili and Kili, the beard of dori and the to little pig of Dain  :(

I think the appearance (and general concept) of Radagast, Bombur and Kíli were totally – or mainly – conceived by the writers themselves, specifically to satisfy precise scripting demands (the romance with Tauriel, for example).

Radagast and Bombur were designed also for evident comedy reasons.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: lord_ellessar am 16. Mär 2016, 15:51
Radagast and Bombur were designed also for evident comedy reasons.

And then, is it à good thing, make comedy éléments for the hobbits ? :/
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Mär 2016, 17:02
Not pure comedy, obviously, but some farcical and grotesque elements here and there, in order (as they said) to adapt better to the child-like tone of the Hobbit (the book).
Even though, in my opinion, they later contradicted themselves by somehow aiming to reach the same majestic tone of LOTR.

Nevertheless, comedy elements are not necessarily negative, since the LOTR trilogy had too some of them during specific and contained moments of the narration.
You can look at the previous pages of this thread, if you are interested; we largely dealt with these grotesque traits in precedent posts  :)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Fredius am 24. Apr 2016, 22:00
Merchants from Harad or Rhun?

(http://forums.revora.net/uploads/monthly_04_2016/post-17208-0-28268200-1461527944.jpg)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 24. Apr 2016, 23:22
Merchants from Harad or Rhun?

(http://forums.revora.net/uploads/monthly_04_2016/post-17208-0-28268200-1461527944.jpg)
Wow I never noticed those people in the background.   :o

I guess it could be either, but in my opinion, I doubt that either would trade with Laketown, especially Harad because of how far they are. 

Could they possibly be from Dorwinion?
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Apr 2016, 23:54
Evil Men as a future faction in the Edain Mod 4.0 REVEALED!  :D

Jokes apart, it could be. Lake Town (and Dale even more) is said to be a very dynamic commercial emporium, in the middle of various trading routes throughout Middle Earth (almost like Constantinople before and during the whole Middle Age, for example); it is thus very likely to assume that it could have attracted a lot of foreign merchants. We can also assume that they might come from the Human tribes of the South and the East that were not subjected to Sauron (and Tolkien tells us there are many).

By the way, speaking about Lake Town, what do you think about the little 'Flemish touch' that PJ gave to anything referring to this context?
I always had the sense of beholding the typical and iconic misty, cold and marine towns of the Hanseatic League whenever I saw Lake Town  :P

If you can relate  ;)

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Aug 2016, 23:24
After quite some time spent in searching for them, I eventually found two concept-arts of how Galadriel was initially supposed to look during the banishment sequence. As also other images from WETA and a behind-the-scenes video that I saw confirm, 'Drowned/Seaweed Galadriel' was intended to (especially at the beginning) display the effect of the evil influence of Dol Guldur (a totally hostile environment) that taints her and progressively drains her ethereal aura; the apex is exactly reached when Sauron reveals himself to the White Council.

You can see the clear sea/water motive still prominent (her veil resembles seaweed), in the following images; according to PJ and the writers, it's a reference to the properties of Nenya. It's though less apparent than what was the final rendition in the actual film. I used these pictures primarily for a proposal of mine (which you are more than welcome to participate in, if you are willing to), but I would also like to post them here, relating directly to the Hobbit trilogy.

Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 5. Mär 2017, 01:50
For those who may have missed it, here it is the entire BOTFA panel presentation during the 2014 San Diego Comic-Con. Along with most of the cast, there's obviously our beloved PJ to greet the crowd. Apart from the information about the then-expected last chapter of the Hobbit trilogy, the director talks vaguely about possible plans for the whole six-part saga: what might happen when the series (and his overall work on Middle-earth) finally ends.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ugEFwc5bMB8
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Mär 2017, 00:32
Just to mirror the survey of this thread's sister-topic, I have a similar question to ask: when and in which circumstances did you watch each chapter of the Hobbit trilogy for the very first time? Your first impressions and feelings, once we immersed ourselves again in the lore of Middle-earth.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Apr 2017, 00:46
If you haven't had the possibility to explore its wonders yet, here it is a very nice experiment (http://middle-earth.thehobbit.com)  ;)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Mai 2017, 01:09
Coincidentally, two guys were chatting about it the other day, at my university. I'm referring to the infamous (pardon the adjective) interview (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/10826867/Viggo-Mortensen-interview-Peter-Jackson-sacrificed-subtlety-for-CGI.html) of Viggo Mortensen which had created so much unrest at the time, within the fans' community that was following the progress of the Hobbit trilogy with apprehension and genuine passion. The actor never intended to go after PJ and his art, yet some of the passages of the interview seem to tell more than one might grasp from a first read: interestingly, the themes revolving around the usage of CGI and subtlety constituted indeed the main arguments of the criticism PJ got.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Mai 2017, 00:11
A very sound concept-art of Tauriel from WETA, from whose inspiration they have presumably crafted the actual character.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/79/ac/48/79ac484305c2cfcfaf0ac648ccd264ae.jpg)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Jun 2017, 14:59
PJ has himself admitted how difficult and chaotic the whole situation was at times, when the quite sudden decision to split the series into three chapters had been eventually made. Lack of organisation and thorough planning, that I think are pretty much visible and perceivable in BOTFA.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=SQkygZdZ_Vk
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Aug 2017, 01:51
The generalities of the story-telling character of the trilogy, and the reasons for three chapters.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ChFqIdh0pG0
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Aug 2017, 01:41
https://youtube.com/watch?v=LQ5bZCXxWIQ
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 19. Sep 2017, 01:35
The conceiving of the Lady of Light's character in AUJ.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e8/65/3e/e8653e16c7e2e1b4a6022c3f7a2571c9.jpg)
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Sep 2017, 22:25
Should anyone wish to experience the mesmerising dream of life in the secluded Valley, you need just hearken to the peace which ever-supreme reigns over the shires of Elrond.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0r5sV1vsBQ
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Okt 2017, 03:08
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WGastdBxorY
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 1. Nov 2017, 00:58
https://youtube.com/watch?v=-hsQIkaDbps
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Nov 2017, 02:26
https://youtube.com/watch?v=W9GJJtetmgs
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 1. Dez 2017, 02:26
https://youtube.com/watch?v=hHV32oqF-mg
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Mär 2018, 16:46
Whilst meandering about the depths of the wide web, I found this very precious piece. It must be noted that the below-shown footage was eventually deleted from any version (either theatrical or extended) of the films and thus unused. On top of all, what struck me and caught my attention was the much-fabled sequence in which Gandalf finds a Seeing Stone in Dol Guldur, through which he sees the armies of Sauron march to the Mountain and Smaug as their deadly ally.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=0iZb2LYKOM0
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Shagrat am 2. Apr 2018, 23:58
Stumbled across this on TV Tropes:

Executive Meddling / Troubled Production: Let's see where to start:

    The first problem emerged in 2008 when New Line Cinema and Warner Bros. refused to pay the Tolkien Estate the money that they owed them (including for The Lord of the Rings). What followed was two and a half years of everything spiraling out of control, not only sending the film into Development Hell but causing Guillermo del Toro and some of the actors to leave production after having been attached to it. To make matters worse, these legal issues got so bad that it would have taken the production out of New Zealand entirely. Only when Peter Jackson decided to come back to the director's chair in late 2009 was everything sorted out.

    And then the studio only gave Peter Jackson and Weta six months of pre-production and told him to start filming immediately afterwards or else (for comparison, the Fellowship of the Ring alone had in pre-production for a little over two years before filming began). And before production could even begin, Jackson was hospitalized in January 2011 for a perforated stomach ulcer, which eerily was one of the contributing causes of Tolkien's death. Luckily, it was caught in time and surgery went smoothly. This, however, forced production and principal photography to be halted for a month.

    Filming itself went smoothly for the most part until the decision was made to split it into three movies instead of two. The sound designers, mixers, and editors had to create and edit new sound effects halfway through doing the second film. Then there was the decision to CGI Azog, Bolg, and the orcs in the first and second films, with the decision with Bolg being made so suddenly that whole sequences had to be re-shot, which is why in the trailers Azog is the one chasing the dwarves◊ but in the film it's Bolg. The scene where the group tries to bury Smaug in gold in the forges was added only because the filmmakers needed a cliffhanger, and the actors and some of the crew literally had no idea what they were filming until the finished film.

    When it finally came time to do the third film, the studio practically took the film away from Jackson and forced him to edit it in a way he didn't approve of and imposed tons of baggage onto film, demanding more emphasis on the love story and possibly more Alfrid scenes (due to Stephen Fry not being available anymore to play the Master of Laketown gain). The Battle of Five Armies had to be until the end of shooting because they couldn't find any locations in New Zealand that would've worked and because the battle turned more complex through the development of the films.

    All of this ended up blowing up in Warner Bros' faces. While the trilogy did overall do well financially, it became divisive for audiences and critics (with the third film, the one that reportedly received the most interference, becoming the lowest rated and lowest performing Hobbit movie at the box office), and the Tolkien Estate has relinquished the film rights to the books until further notice. All the aforementioned meddling was confirmed not just by Peter Jackson, but also by Graham McTavish and Evangeline Lilly, with McTavish confirming the theatrical cut for the third film isn't what was intended and that the extended cuts of all three films are closer to Jackson's original intention.
    Crosses into borderline Tear Jerker when, according to a fan, someone asked Jackson at the premiere of the third film if he was going to see it. He said "I will but not yet. I'm not sure what the studio has done with it." Fortunately, he later gave a better review of the extended version, which he declared himself proud of, even if he admitted that still it wasn't devoid of Executive Meddling (for instance, they cut ten of the promised 30 minutes of footage without Jackson's permission)

    In a more humorous example of Troubled Production, Christopher Lee loved telling stories to the production crew while filming his part, to the point that it was slowing down production on that day.

    The Tolkien Estate's refusal to allow Jackson access to Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth and The Silmarillion resulted in a lot of changes having to be made to the lore, most notably the backstory of the Nazgûl.
Titel: Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Aug 2018, 15:59
A quite dense interview with PJ on the then-new Hobbit endeavour. An interesting insight into the holistic plan at the initial stage of the cinematographic fatigue.

PETER JACKSON (https://youtube.com/watch?v=WssJ_ZEsDyo)