Modding Union

[en] The Prancing Pony => The Lord of the Rings => Thema gestartet von: Adamin am 10. Apr 2015, 07:35

Titel: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 10. Apr 2015, 07:35
Welcome to the Lore Corner,

here you can ask anything that you always wanted to know about Middle-earth. Everyone who has an explanation or theory according to the books or movies is invited to join the discussion. The questions can range from details out of the stories like "Do Balrogs have wings?" (No), or concepts out of Tolkiens other writings like "Are Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell the same person?" (Yes), or wild speculations without a definitive source like "What is orc society like?" (It's complicated).

This topic is based on one of the longest running threads here on the MU called "Was ihr schon immer wissen wolltet", which roughly translates to "Things you always wanted to know". It'll be great to keep up the conversation here as well. :)

Have fun!
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Saruman der Bunte am 10. Apr 2015, 09:46
In the Lord of the Rings it is stated, that Balrogs DO have wings! (Or things that look like wings) ;)

Zitat
The Balrog reached the bridge.Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Estel am 10. Apr 2015, 09:58
In the Lord of the Rings it is stated, that Balrogs DO have wings! (Or things that look like wings) ;)

Zitat
The Balrog reached the bridge.Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.
No, it's only a comparison^^

"Darkness spread out from the Balrog in  shape of two vast wings"
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Der Dunkle König am 10. Apr 2015, 10:19
There is another quote:
Zitat
...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...
No shadows here, just wings.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Saruman der Bunte am 10. Apr 2015, 10:25
There is another quote:
Zitat
...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...
No shadows here, just wings.

Oh yeah, I think this was the qoute I was looking for! Thanks! :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 10. Apr 2015, 11:43
As far as I know (from the quotes), I always imagined the Balrog with demon-like wings that were dripping darkness around him^^
And yeah it's pretty clear in the book that the Balrog DID have wings. However, I'm not so sure about Balrogs of F.A.
I've imagined them in different shapes, much like how Orcs are different than each other  [ugly]
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 10. Apr 2015, 18:48
Nope, this would be just a very literal reading of the text. Like Estel said it's more likely a metaphor. Tolkien describes the incorporeal darkness and shadows that spread from the Balrog like two vast wings. The second sentence reuses the metaphor.

Would you also think that this:
Zitat
"I feel thin, sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread."
means Bilbo is literally turned into butter and scraped on a piece of bakery? :D

Another pretty clear piece of evidence is that the Balrog of Moria (as well as the Balrog that Glorfindel fought) was defeated by throwing him down a mountain. Gandalfs whole plan in Moria is based upon this. That doesn't make a lot of sense if a Balrog would indeed be capable of flying, does it?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Der Dunkle König am 10. Apr 2015, 19:48
Would you also think that this:
Zitat
"I feel thin, sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread."
means Bilbo is literally turned into butter and scraped on a piece of bakery? :D
I don't think that's a good comparison: Physiological Balrogath could have wings, but Bilbo couldn't be bread or butter. That means you can take the quote about the Balrog literally, but not the quote about Bilbo.

Another pretty clear piece of evidence is that the Balrog of Moria (as well as the Balrog that Glorfindel fought) was defeated by throwing him down a mountain. Gandalfs whole plan in Moria is based upon this. That doesn't make a lot of sense if a Balrog would indeed be capable of flying, does it?
Nobody talked about flying, just wings. Having wings doesn't mean being able to fly. Like ostriches. ;)
And even if they were able to fly, we do not know what happened when they fell. Maybe Gandalf and Glorfindel hindered them from flying away, just like in the movie, by fighting them.
By the way, there is another quote from Appendix A, Duron's Folk:
Zitat
Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth
Yes, you could call it another metaphor, and I can not falsify it, but I doubt that you can prove it.
There is a reason for this never ending discussion about winged Balrogath: there is no real evidence. So my opinion is that everybody should keep his own opinion and be happy with it.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 10. Apr 2015, 22:50
I couldn't agree more with you^^

At any rate, ingame the balrog looks pretty badass WITH wings. So yeah that's damn cool  [uglybunti]
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 10. Apr 2015, 23:43
Don't worry, I'm not arguing for removing all wings of all Balrog-depictions. ;)
The movie version is pretty cool as it is, so no changes needed. (Also it is technically okay, because I think there is no membrane between its "wing fingers", so no real wings)

It's more just an interesting thing to think about. And since its one of the most discussed LotR-questions on the internet, I'm not alone with this.

Yes, you could call it another metaphor, and I can not falsify it, but I doubt that you can prove it.
Actually, I can prove it. :D

The word "flying" here, from its base form "flight", is not used in the modern sense of flying like a bird, but rather an old-fashioned english meaning: fleeing, or escaping with great haste.

Zitat von: Wiktionary
[..] from Old English flyht, from Proto-Germanic *fluhtiz, derived from *fleuhaną (“to flee”). Cognate with Dutch vlucht and German Flucht
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flight

Seeing as Tolkien was a linguist, he was shurely aware of this meaning. Not only that but he used it many times. Chapter 12 of The Fellowship of the Ring, first book, is called "Flight to the Ford". Asfaloth wasn't carrying Frodo through the air. After the Fight with the Balrog Gandalf calls out: "Fly, you fools!" He wasn't talking about the eagles here (although there is a great and funny fan-theory about this ^^).

So yeah, the Appendix most likely does not talk about the Balrog actually flying but rather fleeing from the ruins of Thangorodrim. Thus no evidence for wings.

And yes, I'm talking about functional wings. Saying that a Balrog could have had wings incapable of flying is a nice loophole (see the movie) but nothing that can really be argued about.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Der Dunkle König am 11. Apr 2015, 00:01
I'm aware of the fact, that "fly" can mean "flee". But can you prove that Tolkien meant "flee" in this special case? That's what I doubt, not that it can mean "flee".
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Fine am 11. Apr 2015, 00:39
By the way, is the plural "Balrogath" or "Belryg"? Just a quick question :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Der Dunkle König am 11. Apr 2015, 01:00
It's "Balrogath". But you can say "Balrogs" too.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 13. Apr 2015, 01:42
I'm aware of the fact, that "fly" can mean "flee". But can you prove that Tolkien meant "flee" in this special case? That's what I doubt, not that it can mean "flee".

Well yes, as I said the fact that Tolkien frequently used flight in that sense seemed like a pretty good proof to me. I guess you could also look up how this specific passage was translated in a version where the translator worked closely together with Tolkien (like the german Carroux Translation for example, unfortunatly I can't look mine up atm). I suppose it is not too farfetched that this passage would also have been noticed by a translator.

But I think you're looking for proof in form of a defintive answer from Tolkien, like a letter or the like. That I guess you already know that there is none.



So okay, let's look at it from another angle. Let's assume Gandalfs perspective during his confrontation for a moment:

Gandalf who is desperately trying to get Frodo (and the Fellowship) unharmed through Moria. At the last moment the Balrog catches up with them. Gandalf knows that he is the only one powerful enough to do anything against this foe, but even this might not be enough. He is trying to stop him at the bridge, opposes him with his magic ("the dark fire will not avail you!" after which the fire of the Balrog does dwindle for a moment), and even deflects one direct blow (breaking the blade of fire).
It is at that point that Gandalf decides: "I will break the bridge under him, so that we might be able to flee."

This makes no sense if the Balrog could fly. Why should Gandalf even try this? Why would he assume that breaking the bridge will throw the Balrog off balance? The Balrog would catch up with them just a moment later. It would be annoying sure, but not really effective. This would make Gandalf pretty stupid for even trying something that would obviously be ineffectual.

But maybe Gandalf planned to wrestle the Balrog in midair and thus hinder him from flying!
That makes even less sense! First remember that the Balrog pulled Gandalf down with his whip. Gandalf did not plan to fall with the Balrog, he didn't used the bridge as spring board, deliberatly jumping into the chasm. So even if he could have prevented the Balrog to just fly back up, it was definetly not something he did by choice.
Second, could Gandalf honestly prevented the Balrog from flying? I mean yeah, the scene in the movies looks great and all and Gandalf is pretty powerful, but how exactly should that work? The winged Balrog could have regained his balance in midair and dodged Gandalf, because I suppose Gandalf can't really (quickly) change the direction in which he falls. In the movies they were both just falling. Otherwise, Gandalf would have to jump onto the flying Balrog and somehow keep hanging on him, which I'm pretty sure the Balrog would do anything against.

And this is Gandalfs Plan to stop the winged Balrog? As I said, this doesn't really paint Gandalf as a competent, foresightful character. (Which as the rest of the story shows us is exactly what he's supposed to be!)



That's why I'm pretty sure that this age old question can be with reasonable certainty answered. Of course you can choose to interpret the few passages als literally descriptive, but by doing so you're missing a lot of context.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 14. Apr 2015, 06:19
I always wanted to know:
Where exactly is Durin's Folk's dwelling in the Blue Mountains? I found only 3 answers, and they were all different - one stated it was in the Southern Blue Mountains, south of the spur (MERP wiki); another stated it was in the central or southern part of the Northern Blue Mountains, built over the survived ruins of Nogrod (LOTR wiki); and the last location I found was in the Northern Blue Mountains beyond the Little Lune river, a few miles north of Belegost which survived south of the Little Lune (Tolkien Gateway).
Which one of these is true? Or is there a map showing the so called 'Thorin's Halls', the Little Lune and the ruins of Belegost?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 14. Apr 2015, 06:29
I always wanted to know:
Where exactly is Durin's Folk's dwelling in the Blue Mountains? I found only 3 answers, and they were all different - one stated it was in the Southern Blue Mountains, south of the spur (MERP wiki); another stated it was in the central or southern part of the Northern Blue Mountains, built over the survived ruins of Nogrod (LOTR wiki); and the last location I found was in the Northern Blue Mountains beyond the Little Lune river, a few miles north of Belegost which survived south of the Little Lune (Tolkien Gateway).
Which one of these is true? Or is there a map showing the so called 'Thorin's Halls', the Little Lune and the ruins of Belegost?

So wait, you're talking about the dwellings in the 3. Age, not about the ancient dwellings of Nogrod and Belegost?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 14. Apr 2015, 06:34
Yes, the 3rd age place where Thorin settled while in exile.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 28. Apr 2015, 22:23
I think I found something for your question by accident today. While looking up Daín in the Appendix of the Lord of the Rings "of Durins Folk", I found a passage that said Thorin and Thraín made their new home in the East of the Ered Luin, beyond the Lhûn.

I don't know if there are other passages about "Thorins Halls", but I suspect that this is the only hint we have. And since Thorins Folk came from the South through Dunland to Eriador, I suspect that beyond the Lhûn means to the northwest of the River.

That would place the Halls somewhere on the eastern slopes of the northern Ered Luin, which in turn Tolkien Gateway is closest to.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 30. Apr 2015, 15:03
Thanks, Adamin, for the answer. Now at least I know Thorin's halls were probably located a bit south of the Little Lune, east of the Lune river.  xD
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 17. Jun 2015, 00:33
While beginning to finally read the Silmarillion, I found an interesting paragraph in the foreword: Tolkiens Letter to Milton Waldman. The Letter is basically a really good summary of the Silmarillion. It also mentions some informations about Sauron and the Rings of Power.

Zitat
He [Sauron] rules a growing empire from the great dark tower of Barad-dûr in Mordor, near to the Mountain of Fire, wielding the One Ring.
But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants.  
[...]
Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger.
- J.R.R. Tolkien: Letter 131 to Milton Waldman -

I found that very interesting, because I always assumed that Sauron was weakened through the loss of the One Ring. This paragraph though makes the Ring sound more like a focus for Saurons power: He was stronger with it, but didn't loose that without it.

So that would mean that Sauron diminished after the Battle of the Last Alliance not (only) because of Isildur cutting off the Ring, but (also) because of the fight with Elendil, Gil-Galad, and Co. that he lost, if I understand this correctly.

Then again, it's not exactly clear what it means with 'some other seizing and becoming possessed of it'. Is Isildur claiming the Ring, or Gollum wearing it, already enough to cut of Sauron from his power, or do you actually have to use the Ring for that?

Nevertheless, knowing this would have been really useful in the Poll for the most powerful being in Middle-earth (http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30868.45.html). Mighta changed some minds... xD
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 19. Jun 2015, 08:48
Interesting indeed. You got me intrigued to read the Silmarillion again  xD

It appears that anyone, regardless of his power, if got hold of the ring, can cut Sauron off from that power.
Zitat
Unless some other seized it
However that doesn't mean that the new possessor can use that power unless he has the strength and will to do it
Zitat
if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature
So i believe that Isildur, gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, (sam?) Were able to prevent Sauron from taping to his  power by simply not giving up the Ring, while still non of them got what it's required to actually use that power to its limit.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 19. Jun 2015, 10:26
I'm not sure about this. It kinda sounds "too easy" like this, don't you think? Just hold the Ring and Sauron will be powerless.

We do have a distinction between wearing the Ring (like Gollum or Frodo), and actually using the Ring (like Galadriel or Gandalf would have done). I think it goes more in that direction, if you're trying to tap into the power of the Ring, then Sauron cannot use it himself.

Isildur might have been sufficiently strong and heroic to challenge Sauron and use the Ring. Gollum and the Hobbits on the other hand are just different by nature I'd say.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Jun 2015, 04:40
Yes, there is a clear distinction between 'humble' and 'ordinary' people/characters like Frodo or Gollum and powerful and magical beings like Galadriel, Elrond or Gandalf (some of the Wise) when we talk about using or, better, imagining to use the One Ring.
Galadriel clearly explaines that only a powerful and strong will, not necessarily evil, but trained in power and domination, can at least try to use the power of the One; she says these things when she is asked by Frodo if he could ever try to use the power of the One to control the other ring bearers.
Frodo could have thus never used it to dominate or harm other people, because he didn't have a naturally strong and authoritative will and he never wanted to harm anyone in the first place; but this sort of 'weakness' turns out eventually to be an advantage for him, since, due to his humble and 'simple' nature, he was never tempted to use it in search of power and dominion on others.

The Wise could have certainly done incredible things with the One Ring, but, even if moved by good intentions (like defeating Sauron), all their actions would have eventually turned out to be terrible and evil, becoming possible new dangerous tyrants of the World, and Sauron would have returned anyway because, if the OR remains in the World, he can never be completely defeated and his spirit endures; so, we can quite easily assumed that the Wise could have never defeated completely Sauron with the One Ring, and that's why they wisely avoided this option (obviously some more easily than others  :P), knowing that it would have not been the real and final solution of all the problems.

I personally think that the real and central matter about the OR is what kind of threat it represents for the World and how.
I will explain myself better: in LOTR (both books and films) it naturally and rightly seems that the OR is the ultimate evil and powerful object that would grant invincibility and sensational powers (at a great cost if the person is not Sauron himself) if possessed by someone, and that's why everyone seeks and longs its possession (especially Sauron of course) or its destruction for the sake of the entire Middle Earth; that's why also there are often hints and speculations about what it could happen if Elrond, Galadriel or Gandalf used it.

But, if we consider the Silmarillion and thus watch all the portrait in its entirety, we will discover that the OR never actually grants any sort of invincibility, neither to Sauron himself, and that it gives great powers 'only' to everyone but Sauron himself.
Sauron never created it with the intention of extending his powers or achieving invincibility, being himself already a Maia; it was created with the purpose of controlling the other Rings of Powers, but, more importantly, with the intention to ineluctably tie Sauron's very evil essence and spirit to an almost indestructible material object, making flow in it all his dark will and longing for absolute domination, so that he could have never been defeated or forever lost his powers if his spirit of a Maia had been violently parted from his physical body (death), because the spirit of the Ainur, even though immortal, can too diminish and suffer a gradual loss of powers if their physical bodies are severely damaged or completely destroyed (what happened to Sauron when Ilúvatar destroyed Númenor).

The OR in fact grants dominion 'only' to Middle Earth, while it has practically no influence on the Undying Lands or Númenor, since Sauron, despite openly wearing it and being at his full powers, was obliged to kneel in front of Ar-Pharazôn and completely surrender to the Númenoreans; and Sauron could never use it in Númenor as a prisoner to try to escape or entrance the númenorean King, that was never interested in this object.
Sauron was forced to use all his abilities of deceit and persuasion, and he succeeds only after years.

So, I think that that the central matter is that the OR represents the embodiment of the very dark will of Sauron, his spirit and his powers; Sauron, in the War of the Ring, seeks it desperately not to extend his powers, but to regain them and to achieve the physical body and powers that he had in the Second Age, and this obviously equals to be practically invincible, since, in the late Third Age, Númenor doesn't exist anymore and the Free People could have never hoped for the arrival of the Host of the Valar  :)
That's why the Wise always wisely decided not to use it, understanding that the OR, before being a possible tool to use, is primarily the objectified evil and deceitful will of Sauron, and thus can't be used successfully for any good purpose.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 6. Jul 2015, 01:18
I mostly agree Walküre, but on one point. As i quoted above, Tolkien states that the One Ring does strengthen Saurons Powers.

Zitat
While he [Sauron] wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'.
- J.R.R. Tolkien: Letter 131 to Milton Waldman -

Tolkien also says later that Binding his being to the Ring was a necessary weakness, that Sauron conciously had to introduce.
Nevertheless you're right with the Ring being theembodiment of the dark will of Sauron, and the Wise ones not using it out of fear of becoming new dark lords themselves.



By the way:
I really like the Letter to Milton Waldman. There are so many friggin cool details in there. xD

Ever wanted to now what the usage of magic in Middle-earth meant to Tolkien?

Zitat

Anyway all this stuff is mainly concerned with Fall, Mortality, and the Machine.


Both of these will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective, – and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices instead of development of the inherent inner powers or talents — or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of dominating: bulldozing the real world, or coercing other wills.

The Machine is our more obvious modern form though more closely related to Magic than is usually recognised.

[...]

But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation.

The 'Elves' are 'immortal', at least as far as this world goes: and hence are concerned rather with the griefs and burdens of deathlessness in time and change, than with death. The Enemy in successive forms is always 'naturally' concerned with sheer Domination, and so the Lord of magic and machines;
Tolkiens Letter No. 131 - To Milton Waldman
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 8. Jul 2015, 22:46
On another note:

I just found a great paper about Khuzdul. In it the author states that Gimlis curse in Fellowship was improvised, and that David Salo (one of the Main Translators on all films) reverse-engineered it just now for the Hobbit into his Neo-Khuzdul.

Zitat
îsh kakhfê ai-'d-dûr-rugnul!

May my excrement be poured upon the naked-jawed (ones)!

That wasn't really nice indeed.

Here's the paper by the way:
http://triceratops.brynmawr.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/10066/15353/Amram_thesis_2015.pdf?sequence=1
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 9. Jul 2015, 06:04
Gmli Pls  [uglybunti]
I've never thought it was an improvisation! You see, that's why the LotR trilogy was great.
It's filled with amazing performances and improvs all over  xD
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Ushnot am 9. Jul 2015, 12:52
That's really a great paper, thanks for sharing it, Adamin. Since I'm both interested in philology (I'm studying Latin and Greek) and a huge fan of the dwarves, I've just devoured this essay.
I wasn't really aware of the fact, that there were indeed so few forms of Khuzdul by Tolkien himself (he really wanted it to be a secretive language, as it seems) and that Salo nearly had to invent everything starting from this poor basis.

Concerning the curse, i find it quite remarkable, that the imperative îsh contradicts Sao's regular paradigma of Neo-Khuzdul imperatives (CiCiC, if i remember correctly), certainly because it was reverse-engineered, but then you could argue, as Amram does, that it may have a subjunctive tone and therefore has this irregular form (and irregular forms are nothing new especially if you're accustomed to Greek that teems of them^^).

I just wished, that there was indeed more data, especially about the true names of the dwarves and how they're constructed, but i fear, it'll remain their secret forever...

Anyway, thanks for sharing.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 24. Jul 2015, 01:34
Her return is 'obligated' because it's her fate and an essential path of her life as a royal High Elf from Valinor, who witnessed the Splendour of the Two Trees.
The initial Perfection of the World was inevitably marred and corrupted by the powers of Melkor/Morgoth, who used Arda (except obviously Aman) as his own personal One Ring to spread his will and evil essence; and condemned it to an ineluctable destiny of decay and corruption, something that the Three Rings momentarily slowed and stopped.
The fate of the Elves was thus already decided (even before their Awakening in Arda), and that's why the Valar wisely decided to invite the Eldar to Valinor and always persuaded to sail towards it or return; because Valinor is the only place in which the Elves can live fully according to their nature of immortal beings, without fearing corruption or decay, since Valinor was made by Immortal Beings and made immortal by them.

Galadriel obviously knows this really well and her longing for the Undying Lands is always vivid, but she is divided and worried, because, as she tells Frodo in FOTR (book), the Love of the Eldar for their creations is deep as the depth of the Sea and she doesn't want to leave her realm and condemn it to vanish along the Ages of the World; but she is also well aware that, whether Sauron regains the One Ring or the One Ring is destroyed, her realm and her powers are doomed to fade forever and her people become rustic inhabitants of darkened woods.
That's why she also personally tells Frodo that she wishes that the One Ring had never been created, and thus letting the Three Rings to allow the Elves to stay in the World for other centuries without diminishing.

Her return to Aman is obligated by these facts, the sad story of corruption, decay and disenchantment of Arda, that goes from the initial titanic wars between the Valar and Melkor, to the betrayal of Sauron with the creation of the One Ring.


Here's another kicker though... :D

Wether or not the decision of the Valar to take the Elves to Aman was wise or right is actually a pretty hard question. Even the Valar weren't 100 % sure on this. Some (amongst which Ulmo was chief) thought that the Elves should have been left to wander Middle-earth and heal the land with their gifts/skill.

So the marring of Arda is not necessary the reason for the elves to retreat to Aman, but the reason for the elves to be (or stay) in Arda and enrich it with their subcreation.

This can also be seen in the fact that the elves were never quite "at home" in Valinor. Many of them stayed in Tol Eressëa, in between Valinor and Middle-earth; Most of them stayed in Eldamar, as close to Middle-earth as possible, and i think it is even stated somewhere that the Vanyar sometimes travelled to the shores near Alqualondë to at least gaze upon Middle-earth from time to time.
That's why there is definetly a connection between the elves and the "mortal lands".

I'm not sure if the disenchantment of Arda can be seen as that simple a reason for the elves to leave Middle-earth behind. It was a factor of course, but i think the desire for healing of whoes and wounds is as much a decisionpoint as well for most elves (though Galadriel is a special case of course).
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Jul 2015, 11:43

Actually I have to correct you  :P

Zitat
Wether or not the decision of the Valar to take the Elves to Aman was wise or right is actually a pretty hard question. Even the Valar weren't 100 % sure on this. Some (amongst which Ulmo was chief) thought that the Elves should have been left to wander Middle-earth and heal the land with their gifts/skill.

So the marring of Arda is not necessary the reason for the elves to retreat to Aman, but the reason for the elves to be (or stay) in Arda and enrich it with their subcreation.

Yes, it's true, but this was mainly the opinion of Ulmo.
Manwë, Varda, Mandos, Nienna, Yavanna, Aulë and Tulkas had the opposite opinion though, because they cared so much for the Elves and they were afraid that they would have been in great danger among the still-present darkness and shadows of Melkor in the World, even though he had been previously defeated and brought in chains to Valinor; and they were right, since many Balrogs had hidden themselves, and Sauron were breeding legions of Orcs, to prepare the return of his master (and you should understand it, because you are a Vala yourself Adamin  :P).
Also, we shouldn't forget that Manwë is the dearest Vala to Ilúvatar (he is not the most powerful of the Valar, but he's definitely the wisest, and from it comes his absolute authority as the King of Arda), the one who understood better its Vision/Plan; and Manwë consulted with Ilúvatar in his own mind, before taking the fundamental decision of inviting the Elves to Aman.

The Elves have indeed the power to heal the wounds, or, better, they had it in the 'young ages' of their kindred, when the World was not so dark, and I didn't deny it, nor did I say that the Elves were immediately threatened and obliged to leave due to the sad fate of the World; it is a slow and long process of corruption and decay that it obviously shows itself manifestly only in the late Third Age, but it was anyway decided long before the Awakening of the Elves, and the World had already been 'cursed' by it.
This is the saddest aspect of all the matter.

Yes, Aman is not the motherland of the Elves, but it is the only land in which they can openly and eternally live according to their nature of immortal beings, really the best place they could have ever opted for.
Tolkien often stated it in the Silmarillion, the Eldar that reached Aman, or, better, the Eldar that were born there, blessed by the Holy Light of the Two Trees (like Galadriel and the Noldorin Royal Family), achieved immeasurable and immense levels of Splendour and Knowledge, surpassing all the other Elves ever born in Middle Earth; and we know that this Splendour and Knowledge then gradually passed (obviously at different grades) to the Noldor in Beleriand, to Númenor and, then, to Arnor/Gondor.
It's quite impossible thus that the Elves feel out of place or even negatively affected by the sacred aura of Valinor, unless an evil will works in disguise and with deceiving purposes to make it happen; and this is what Melkor/Morgoth exactly did in Valinor, poisoning the mind of Fëanor and other Noldor, spreading lies according to which the Valar had invited the Eldar to Aman to contain them in a 'golden cage', and prevent them to achieve power in Middle Earth.
The Elves don't need to gaze again at the World, because they are completely satisfied and at home in an enchanted and holy realm, and the Noldor finally understood this after all their sorrows and sufferings in Beleriand and Middle Earth.
It's true, Eldamar and Eressëa are quite separated lands/realms of Aman, and are not directly subjected to the influence of the Valar, but they are still embalmed by their holy aura, that grants them 'Immortality' (Valinor+Eldamar+Eressëa=the UNDYING Lands)  :)
The 'last gaze' at the World is thus not necessary (especially for the Vanyar, because they love the Ainur and hate Middle Earth  xD) and impossible, since the Undying Lands were completely divided from Arda and placed in another dimension, exactly for 'cutting' any remaining contacts with the World/Arda; and, from the Silmarillion, we also know that the Eldar of Eldamar also travel a lot to Valinor and its extreme borders, and that, after the Kinslaying of Alqualondë and the War of the Jewels, Valinor is certainly the most populated area (and arguably always have been) since it occupies the main region of Aman, the enormous and evergreen Plain of Valinor  :)
Valinor is, whether they like it or not, the 'ultimate goal' of all the Elves, a natural desire and longing of theirs for the Sea and the Immortal Shores, something they always look at and try to resemble even if they linger in the World; Imladris and Lothlórien were in fact 'mortal reflections' of the Splendour of Aman, and even Sauron, to convince the Elves to aid him in the forging of the Rings of Power, falsely promised that they would have been able to recreate the Bliss of Eressëa or Valinor itself.

The Wounds of the World come from all the evil deeds of Melkor and his numerous servants, direct effects of the Ineluctable Faith of the World.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 28. Jul 2015, 19:25
in the sillmarilion sauron became a giant bat if im not mistaken
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Jul 2015, 19:38
in the sillmarilion sauron became a giant bat if im not mistaken

Yes, after he loses the fight with Huan, the Hound of Valinor.

In the First Age, Sauron is mainly a terrible sorcerer, leader of Ghosts, evil creatures, Orcs and, most importantly, Werewolves and Vampires; and he is capable to turn into a werewolf or a vampire himself, as the ability of shape shifting is one of the characteristic powers of the Ainur (Valar and Maiar), but mainly of Sauron, who will use it in the Second Age with deceiving purposes, disguised as Annatar.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 28. Jul 2015, 19:46
well why in the mod he is a swarm of bats and not a giant bad ass bat
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Jul 2015, 19:51
well why in the mod he is a swarm of bats and not a giant bad ass bat

Probably some technical issues, but, mainly, if he were a giant Bat, he would be too OP  [ugly]
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 28. Jul 2015, 20:02
well i think he can be balanced  as a giant bat look at the eagles put some fire arows on them and they done
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 28. Jul 2015, 20:47
why in the mod he is a swarm of bats and not a giant bad ass bat
Cause Sauron is not a Batman! :o
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 28. Jul 2015, 23:09
he s not batman he s a bat
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 29. Jul 2015, 10:33
he s not batman he s a bat

A giant Vampire, yes, but then the Edain Team should create another model for him.
I am thus quite satisfied with the current display of this form.

By the way, this is the Lore Corner, and we are now going a bit off topic talking about possible concepts of the game or game's mechanics  [ugly]
Gandalf the Gray, I suggest you create a new thread on the 'General Suggestions' for Gorthaur and his vampire form, or add your proposal to an already-existing thread about him  :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 29. Jul 2015, 12:41
By the way, this is the Lore Corner, and we are now going a bit off topic talking about possible concepts of the game or game's mechanics  [ugly]
Gandalf the Gray, I suggest you create a new thread on the 'General Suggestions' for Gorthaur and his vampire form, or add your proposal to an already-existing thread about him  :)
you have a point mate
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 29. Jul 2015, 22:36
Yes, a sort of a vampire actually.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 29. Jul 2015, 23:42
yea i read it again he was a vampire bat
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 27. Okt 2015, 00:39
I don't exactly know why, but I seem to remember from my last time reading The Two Towers, that Elves don't really sleep.

I think Legolas explains this to Gimli and Aragorn (and the reader) during their hunt for the Uruk-Hai. They put up a camp for the night and while the Dwarf and Man drift into sleep, the Elf just kind of meditates with closed eyes.

Am I remembering that correctly, or did I get my stories mixed up? Can someone confirm that Elves don't sleep at all?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 27. Okt 2015, 11:05
It's been a while since I've last read it, but yeah i do remember such a thing.
Meditation is a good word to describe it^^
#Jedi elves
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Nov 2015, 14:40
It's been a while since I've last read it, but yeah i do remember such a thing.
Meditation is a good word to describe it^^
#Jedi elves


Yes, I too heard that it's more a kind of restful Meditation, where the most ancient Elves have also the opportunity to mentally wander throughout their deepest Memories, since their Memory is always as vivid and alive as their 'immortal' lifespan  :)

Also, if I remember correctly, in ROTK, when the guests of the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen leave Gondor to return home, it's described that, during a nocturnal moment of the journey, Elrond, Celeborn, Galadriel, Gandalf (probably, the Maiar have this same trait too in their true form, or another one closed to their original Majesty) and other Elves fall in a sort of meditative-watchful state, in which they seem to reminisce their Past, while appearing, also, to 'telepathically' contact the other ones in that exact state.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: CragLord am 3. Nov 2015, 16:10
Now I understand how Blizzard got idea about "Khala" in StarCraft universe. xD :P
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 3. Nov 2015, 22:27
I always had a question that I didn't find any answer to: in the Fourth Age of Middle-earth, the Elves who chose to remain in Middle-earth instead of going to Valinor still lived, but 'faded'.
My question is - what does this mean? I know it means that their spirit consumes their body and it becomes invisible. But:
1.The Elves who had faded, could they see each other as normal?
2.I read in Tolkien Gateway that the faded Elves could manifest before mortals if they wish. Does this mean that they were invisible most of the time to mortals (but could see and communicate as normal with other faded Elves), but when they wished they could show their physical forms to people?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 4. Nov 2015, 00:18
My question is - what does this mean? I know it means that their spirit consumes their body and it becomes invisible.

You're right with the first part as far as I know, but I can't remember anything about the second part. Elves cannot become invisible I think (without having any specific quote for that right now ;) ).

Their creative Spirit does consume their body over time, but more in a metaphysical way. They grow tired, weary, unmotivated. I think it's kinda like staying too long at a party. There comes a time (usually around 3 am), where you just want to go home. ;)

Tolkien actually had a physical fading in one of his early concepts. Back then the Elves literally faded in stature, and became the little fairy-like Elves like in Shakespeares Midsummernights Dream, or Santa Clauses Workshop. Thankfully Tolkien changed that later on. xD



Of course there's also an extreme Elf like Fëanor, always the exception to the rule:
Zitat
[Fëanor] died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.
The Silmarillion: Chapter 13 - Of the Return of the Noldor
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 4. Nov 2015, 06:34
^^So they are still visible to everyone as normal after they fade?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Nov 2015, 11:09
^^So they are still visible to everyone as normal after they fade?


I was never really convinced by the idea of Elves slowly fading into harmless and mourning spirits, similar to the fate of Sauron after the destruction of the One Ring.
As Adamin stated, their immortal soul consumes them more in a 'psychological' point of view, since their Immortality (very long lifespan deeply tied to the life and condition of the World itself) becomes antithetical to the ineluctable corruption and marring of Arda, started long before the Third Age.

So, the Elves naturally feel, after a long permanence in Middle Earth (especially in the Third Age), the dire and instinctive need to sail to the West and pass beyond the Sea, to truly live an immortal Life in immortal Lands, according to their own very Nature  :)

But, if some Elves still decide to remain in the World due to their pure love of it (something that refers mainly to the Teleri and the Avari), I definitely believe (according to my personal interpretation) that their bodies eventually decade and get old like the ones of the other Human beings.
I don't really like the idea of 'Elven Ghosts' wandering around the regions of the World in the Fourth and later ages  :P
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 4. Nov 2015, 11:28
^^So they are still visible to everyone as normal after they fade?
I'd say so, yes.

I also can't remember reading of an Elf, that lost its body, yet still was alive. Usually you have to die in order to seperate your soul from your body.
(although there's the Wraith thing of course, which is kindof an inbetween thing... Wow, that really is a complicated issue. [ugly])


I was never really convinced by the idea of Elves slowly fading into harmless and mourning spirits, similar to the fate of Sauron after the destruction of the One Ring.
I never heard of that before. Is there really some source that describes something like that?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 4. Nov 2015, 12:08
So maybe the Elves who stayed in Middle-earth were still completely visible, still immortal beings, but felt a strong need to depart to Valinor?
In my theory Thranduil remained in Middle-earth to rule his kingdom and faded. And Tauriel, she went east to the foothills of the Orocarni Mountains and settled in with the Avari/Dark Elves near the coast of the East ocean; she faded too. Well, Thranduil and Tauriel remained in Middle-earth at least in my headcanon  xD.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Nov 2015, 12:14
I never heard of that before. Is there really some source that describes something like that?


It's something I read once on Tolkien Gateway, the last paragraph of the 'Decline of the Elves', extrapolated from a passage of the 'Morgoth's Ring', as showed in the second reference at the bottom of the page.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Elves

But, as I have already said, it's not really something that convinces me very much, and, probably, this trait might be a later addition, as for what concerns many other themes.

The Elves, just like the Humans, are necessarily bound to their physical body, which, together with their spiritual part (soul), forms their Essence and capability of living/existing.
One half can't exist alone without the other (Fëa and Hröa)  :)
Only the Ainur, among all the sentient beings, could exist only with their spiritual component, as they were created in the Timeless Halls without a physical appearance, and they incarnated themselves later in the physical World; even though, they too suffer serious consequences if the lose their body, like Sauron throughout the events of Arda.

What stated in that passage implies, I guess, the possibility of some Elves to exist as invisible spirits in the World, lingering until the End of Time like the now harmless Sauron.
I think, instead, that every Elf remained in Middle Earth has to necessarily die at a certain point, and, given that their soul can't exist alone, wait as a spirit in the Halls of Mandos for its judgement.
The Wraith condition is something really rare, I would say, as a sort of exception in the Tolkien Universe (along with many other exceptions), that involves a 'cursed' and 'degenerate' element in it, as for example the condition of the Nazgûl, or the one of the Oathbreakers; or, as stated above, exceptional reasons, like the Nature and abilities of the Ainur of never really dying once and for all, but always existing somehow (even in a weaker or harmless state).
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 4. Nov 2015, 14:12
I personally don't think the fading Elves in Middle-earth would die, I think they remained immortal, but maybe hid themselves very well, and most of them lived in cave kingdoms; at least the Silvan elves and the Avari lived mostly in cave realms, so maybe we can assume the remaining Avari and Silvan Elves lived on in their underground dwellings, but just managed to make the entrances difficult to find?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 4. Nov 2015, 15:31
It's something I read once on Tolkien Gateway, the last paragraph of the 'Decline of the Elves', extrapolated from a passage of the 'Morgoth's Ring', as showed in the second reference at the bottom of the page.

Now that is interesting.
I suppose you can't really say then, if it is canon or not, since Morgoth's Ring (as the whole History of Middle-earth Series) consists of early manuscripts and development notes from Prof. Tolkien. Strictly speaking none of this made it into the published, finished Versions of the Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion, and I guess Tolkien had good reasons for that.

But I looked up the quote that the Invisible Elves are based on anyway. It's quite fascinating.

Zitat
For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly: the limit of their lives is the life of Arda, which though long beyond the reckoning of Men is not endless, and ages also. 
Moreover their body and spirit are not separated but coherent. As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. 
This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalie on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly.
Morgoth's Ring: The Later Quenta Silmarillion - Laws and Customs Among the Eldar

This Passage does seem unfinished to me. First it speaks of a 'psychological' change. Stress (weight of the years) through the experience of change (change in desire and thought) on the Spirit manifests itself in a change of behavior (impulses and moods of the body).
But then it does mention the literal consuming of the body. So it kindof talks about two different things and does not combine the two. My guess is the Professor would have refined and rewritten this coherently, if he would have wanted to add it into the Silmarillion.

Then again it also states the becoming of invisible spirits as an external information. "And they say that all the Eldalie will have become spirits". So it is not told as a fact from the author, but rather something like a legend, an assumption. It does not necessarily has to be exactly like this.

I do like the first two sentences though, were it says that the life of the Elves is like the life of the world, aging indeed but very slowly. So watching an Elf grow old is kindof like watching a mountain, or an ocean grow old. They do change, grow, reform, but so slowly that a single human does not perceive any change.
Pretty cool concept. ^^



So yeah, who is to say what happens to the elves that stay? No one knows! And that in itself is somewhat beautiful. ^^
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 4. Nov 2015, 15:59
^^Well then, I guess in this case we can only speculate on what happened to the Avari and Silvan Elves who remained in Middle-earth  :).
Talking about Silvan Elves, is it written somewhere in the books if Thranduil went to Valinor or stayed to rule his kingdom? My theory is that he stayed in Middle-earth, but does the lore contradict this?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 4. Nov 2015, 17:08
I think it is not clearly stated if he left or stayed! :-)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Nov 2015, 17:34
Now that is interesting.
I suppose you can't really say then, if it is canon or not, since Morgoth's Ring (as the whole History of Middle-earth Series) consists of early manuscripts and development notes from Prof. Tolkien. Strictly speaking none of this made it into the published, finished Versions of the Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion, and I guess Tolkien had good reasons for that.


Yes, I had kind of imagined it myself, but, apparently, this interpretation is relatively widespread as the actual lore, as I had also the opportunity to see in other Tolkien-related pages.
That's why I personally always prefer the 'original' (published) and earlier material from the Silmarillion (that naturally involves, consequently, other fundamental Arda matters), which might seem to be a bit 'rough' or incomplete, but it's surely my guide across all the founding aspects of the Legendarium  :)
For example, I surely appreciate more Galadriel passing the deadly Grinding Ice with her brothers and relatives of the Noldorin Royal Family (and meeting Celeborn in Doriath), rather than her reaching later Middle Earth with Celeborn (previously known in Alqualondë) with a Telerin ship (the version followed by LOTR)  :P

So yeah, who is to say what happens to the elves that stay? No one knows! And that in itself is somewhat beautiful. ^^


Yes, it really gives the needed sense of Mystery.
But, as I generally approach the events of Arda, fundamental themes like these should be bound to a sort of ultimate 'Order', although they can easily have arcane elements regarding their nature.
In this case, I would say that it wouldn't be possible, in my opinion, that some Elves might survive as spirits in the World, and, occasionally, appear to Humans.
I would say that, whether by sailing from the Grey Havens by choice, or getting old and finally dying, all the Elven souls must necessarily and eventually reach Aman (Valinor or the Halls of Mandos) as any sentient being who dies, regardless of the fact that it remains in Mandos' Realm to be judged (Elves) or leaves the physical Universe (Humans).
Everything would thus be subjected to a certain degree to the Authority of the Valar, the Archangels and Guardians of Arda  8-)
I know, it might sound not very democratic, but, in the end, Valinor is an absolutist Theocracy  xD

The presence and the trace of the Elves would thus be gradually deleted and forgotten as well from the ordinary and disenchanted World, alive only in Aman, the only place where they can fully live according to their immortal Nature.

Talking about Silvan Elves, is it written somewhere in the books if Thranduil went to Valinor or stayed to rule his kingdom? My theory is that he stayed in Middle-earth, but does the lore contradict this?


As far as I know, Thranduil's fate is completely unknown.
But, I always hope that any Elf will eventually pass beyond the Sea  ;)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 4. Nov 2015, 18:08
Well, if Thranduil's fate is unknown, he may have decided that his people in Eryn Lasgalen needed him, so he may have decided to remain in Middle-earth.
^^DieWalküre, since his fate is unknown, he may have passed into the West. But, since I like to imagine some Elves remained in Middle-earth, I hope he remained to lead his people  :).
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 6. Nov 2015, 19:25
Well, if Thranduil's fate is unknown, he may have decided that his people in Eryn Lasgalen needed him, so he may have decided to remain in Middle-earth.
^^DieWalküre, since his fate is unknown, he may have passed into the West. But, since I like to imagine some Elves remained in Middle-earth, I hope he remained to lead his people  :).


What about his wife?  :)

She may have found Peace in the Halls of Mandos, and, then, reborn and gained back her physical body, to live forever in the Evergreen Plains of Valinor.
So, why won't our Thranduil reunite with his Love to be eternally in the Joy of Valimar, among the Holy Ones?  :)


Even though, if he really decided to reach the Immortal Shores, he would obviously 'lose' any kind of Authority, intended as the Authority that he (and all the other Elven Lords) had in the mortal World.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 6. Nov 2015, 19:28
i dont think that this is  Valimar xD
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 6. Nov 2015, 21:12
i dont think that this is  Valimar xD


Yes, it is.
In DieWalküre's imagination, at least  :P
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 6. Nov 2015, 21:25
P.S: I like your interpretation of Valinor  :).

Well, if Thranduil's fate is unknown, he may have decided that his people in Eryn Lasgalen needed him, so he may have decided to remain in Middle-earth.
^^DieWalküre, since his fate is unknown, he may have passed into the West. But, since I like to imagine some Elves remained in Middle-earth, I hope he remained to lead his people  :).


What about his wife?  :)

She may have found Peace in the Halls of Mandos, and, then, reborn and gained back her physical body, to live forever in the Evergreen Plains of Valinor.
So, why won't our Thranduil reunite with his Love to be eternally in the Joy of Valimar, among the Holy Ones?  :)


Even though, if he really decided to reach the Immortal Shores, he would obviously 'lose' any kind of Authority, intended as the Authority that he (and all the other Elven Lords) had in the mortal World.
Well, it's possible that Thranduil went to Valinor so he could hypotheticaly be with his wife  :).
But, since he was Sindarin and he didn't quite like the Noldor, I just don't find it fitting for his character to accept being subdued to the power of the Valar (after all, he and his father went east as they wished they could go away from the Valar and all the 'trouble' they caused  ;) ).
But I hadn't thought about his wife finding peace in the Halls of Mandos. He could have went west to be with his resurrected wife (or her memory, if she was not brought back to life), and, of course, to reunite with his son, Legolas. But doesn't it also sound logical that Greenwood held many dear memories of his wife, and he couldn't leave them behind (plus there's a whole kingdom of Silvan Elves who rely on him  ;) ).
Don't you think it's still possible he could have remained in Middle-earth?  :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 27. Nov 2015, 10:38
Is it stated somewhere in the books that Legolas' mother is dead?

I thought that this was a movie idea (though definetly plausible) and that her fate is simply unknown. Which could mean a number of things.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Nov 2015, 13:14
Is it stated somewhere in the books that Legolas' mother is dead?


Yes, I too think that it's only an adaptation for the Hobbit films.
As far as I know, there are no references to Legolas' mother in the books.

Anyway, I nevertheless find it very plausible, as you wrote.
The Third Age, especially its second half, was certainly not a very quiet period for the Woodland Realm of Mirkwood, from the 'resettling' in the North of Mirkwood due to the Shadows of Dol Guldur to the bloody battle against the forces of Sauron in the War of the Ring.

I thus believe that the choice of Thranduil being mainly a 'melancholic' character (and, consequently, remarking the element of the pains he suffered and his isolationist attitude) was very wise and proper of the Hobbit trilogy.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 2. Dez 2015, 22:34
Lothlórien is a Sindar-based realm, with a solid and ancient Sindarin 'ruling class', of which the Prince Celeborn is the apex.
So, taking for granted that the kingdom of Doriath is definitely the most famous and legendary Sindarin realm in this woodland kin's History, a Sindarin Horn might be the wisest and most conceptual choice, in my opinion.

This one caught my interest though.

What is the source for Lothlorien having a Sindarin ruling class in the Third Age? I don't remember specifically reading of other (blonde) Elvenlords of Lothlorien, besides Celeborn and Galadriel. Are they appearing as characters in the Lord of the Rings?

I always thought of Galadriel and Celeborn as being the only fair Elves in Lorien.

While, although a Noldorin Horn for Galadriel could be logically legitimate, it would infer, I guess, that Galadriel is a 'common' political and military ruler of Lórien, as the other Elven Lords, and that the Noldorin warfare tradition is particularly strong and still present in Lothlórien.

Therefore, as I wrote above, Galadriel is indeed the leader of Lothlórien, but she's a very special exception.
The 'Angelic Exception' I explained above  (**)

Galadriel not being Loriens common political ruler though is something I definetly don't see in the Lore, Val.

I mean: Is there EVER a moment in the books where Celeborn is asked something that didn't go through Galadriel first? xD
Also is Lothlorien ever mentioned without Galadriel as its center?

You said yourself some time ago, that Galadriel is the only thing that keeps Lorien shielded against Sauron. She is actively fighting, even if it's not physically.
Also Galadriel is in the White Council, THE most politicial group in Middle-earth. Celeborns membership is not so sure, and not as relevant.

You might have mixed them up with Thingol and Melian. There I see exactly what you described: The man actively ruling and the woman being the wise, divine power in the background.
Galadriel and Celeborn are very different from that though, because Galadriel is taking the Action and doing Stuff, while Celeborn... not so much.

So while I think you are right with the assumption that Celeborn was the military commander of Lothlorien, the political supreme rule and the image of Lorien are definetly tightly in Galadriels hands.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 8. Dez 2015, 12:35
I always wanted to know:
Where exactly is Durin's Folk's dwelling in the Blue Mountains? I found only 3 answers, and they were all different - one stated it was in the Southern Blue Mountains, south of the spur (MERP wiki); another stated it was in the central or southern part of the Northern Blue Mountains, built over the survived ruins of Nogrod (LOTR wiki); and the last location I found was in the Northern Blue Mountains beyond the Little Lune river, a few miles north of Belegost which survived south of the Little Lune (Tolkien Gateway).
Which one of these is true? Or is there a map showing the so called 'Thorin's Halls', the Little Lune and the ruins of Belegost?

Today I found another hint on the location of Thorins Halls by accident. In case your still wondering... xD

Zitat von: Unfinished Tales: III The Quest for Erebor
"For just as I [Gandalf] was nearing Bree I was overtaken by Thorin Oakenshield, who lived then in exile beyond the north-western borders of the Shire. [...]"

So our guesstimation seems affirmed by this.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 8. Dez 2015, 14:01
^^Thanks for the reply Adamin, it's nice to hear that our guess may be lore-true  :).
And yeah I'm still wondering, I never lose interest in anything related to Middle-earth  xD.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: CragLord am 8. Dez 2015, 14:42
And here is regular map,
so can you guys just put some red crosses on places where you think they
had those halls? I tried to compare it with old map of Ered Luin from first age because of locations of Nogrod and Belgost, but I don't wanted to point on anything, because I am not sure.

Point on this map please. xD

http://postimg.org/image/gcb9vm4gz/full/

And then just reupload it? :)

Regards,
Crag
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 8. Dez 2015, 15:14
Ok, I marked the Three possible locations for Thorin's Halls in red. The possible location of Belegost is in blue, and Nogrod's location is in green. All Three places in my opinion are located in the Northern Ered Luin.
Note that in my opinion the northernmost location of Thorin's halls, above the river and at the end of the map, is the most plausible in my opinion  :).

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/4/3160/3159796/thumb_620x2000/Map.png)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Dez 2015, 15:41
Can I just say that I profoundly and significantly appreciate and like this thread and the relative discussions?  :)

And, Adamin, do not think to 'escape' so easily with Lothlórien and Galadriel, I'm just so busy at the moment that I won't have the time to answer, the current and the next week too, I guess  xD
My response will eventually come anyway, so, be ready for it; lore debates are like 'vital nourishment' for me  :D

P.S. I decided to set this thread sticky, as it's one of the topics that were initially established here by Adamin (if I'm not wrong), and, needless to say, given that the lore is the core of this whole section, it has the legitimate 'supremacy' in hierarchy over the other more specific threads, if we can consider it so.
And, once I am free from these 'boundaries', stay assured that I will have some interesting lore discussions in mind to expose here, at your attention  ;)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: CragLord am 8. Dez 2015, 18:50

Thanks man. :) This visual contact makes things much more descriptive in my opinion, and enriches discussion. :)
This is really nice topic as Walk have said, its value is great. :)

Kind regards,
Crag
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 8. Dez 2015, 22:21
Can I just say that I profoundly and significantly appreciate and like this thread and the relative discussions?  :)
lore debates are like 'vital nourishment' for me  :D

Couldn't agree more. ^^

As for the rest:
:D
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 12. Dez 2015, 10:32
[...] and I agree that Nimloth white tree symbol from  Númenorean's shields of second age (and from Lotr prologe) [...]

Concerning symbol of white tree, we probably have one thing to think about.
In general, in movies, we have symbol of Nimloth, which is white tree of  Númenor

That is actually a misconception in my eyes. There is no White Tree of Númenor.

At least no symbolic tree. Of course there is Nimloth, the literal white tree that grew in the King's Court in Númenor. But there is no reference in the books to him having any greater meaning or influence on the daily lives or political decisions of the Númenorians. It seems to be just one of the many gifts from the elves of Tol Eressëa. Nimloths main influence on Númenor seems to be this: It smelled pretty.  ;)

It is not before Isildur steals one of its fruit (getting mortally wounded), grows a seedling out of it and takes it with him to Middle-earth, that the White Tree gets symbolic meaning. A symbol for the Faithful, the men who stayed Elf-friends, even though that was forbidden and punished in (later) Númenor. The Men who fled from Númenor before its Downfall and founded new Kingdoms in Middle-earth.
The White Tree only has meaning for these Men after Númenor.


Just a quick reminder for context:
The Seven Ships of the Faithful, which fled from Númenor before its destruction, split up. Elendil and his crew landed in the north of Middle-earth and founded Arnor. His sons Isildur and Anárion with their crews landed in the south of Middle-earth and founded Gondor. Isildur lived in the eastern part and built Minas Ithil (Morgul), Anárion lived in the western part and built Minas Anor (Tirith); both met in Osgilliath and ruled together.
All these Men adapted the Name Dúnedain (Men of the West in Sindarin). Elendil ruled as High King of the Dúnedain, so he was technically ruling over both Arnor and Gondor, but left the south mainly to his sons.


And the movies actually do not contradict this. The Soldiers from the Last Alliance in the prologe were not Númenoreans. In heritage maybe, but not in citizenship. Númenor sank under the Sea in 3319 SA (Second Age), while the Last Alliance fought in 3434 SA, more than 100 Years later.
So the Soldiers we see were already Dúnedain, people from Arnor and Gondor. It makes sense that they use the symbols of the Faithful. Seven Stars for the seven ships, Elendils high crown, and the white tree. And it makes sense that they used only one coat of arms then, because the Last Alliance was formed by Elendil.

Though I think (and this is purely my head-canon ^^), that the addition of the white tree would have been Isildurs idea. Since the Trees are much stronger tied to Gondor, it seems like an act of representing the individual capability of the southern realm. Elendils Crown seems like a perfectly fine symbol for Arnor, but the white tree is something that every gondorian soldier could have identified with.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: CragLord am 13. Dez 2015, 20:16

Well, I think there is possibility for misconception.  :)
I completely understand your post and agree with one part of it, but I disagree with you about simbolic meaning of Nimloth.
I agree that there is not reference in books about  influence on the daily lives or political decisions of the Númenorians. Except information that tree :
Zitat
Its blossoms appeared as the Sun set, and their perfume filled the night in Númenor's royal city.
But Nimloth is symbol of identity for Númenoreans. It was gift from Eldar with reason.
First King of Númenor as descendant (son) of Eärendil get new place for his people (Númenor) as a gift for Elven friends. That was gift from Valar. Nimloth was gift from Eldar, and it was clear symbol of identity for those people. They all were Elf-friends in beginning.
What happened some period "just before" sinking was results of sick minds and Sauron influence. Nimloth still was symbol of identity, in this time for remaining Elf-friends, and these were  Amandil, Lord of Andúnië and leader of the Faithful Númenóreans and his people. Ofc there were Elendil his son and his sons etc.
I wanted to say, in my opinion (and from lore info) Nimloth was always symbol of identitiy for them and during that dark times its meaning was probably at highest peak and then it was refferning to Lord of Andúnië  and his people.
From that aspect using of Numloth symbol on Shields during Last Alliance was pretty normal thing. First, Sauron was responsible for destruction of Númenór, Elendil as leader of Faithful was still alive, so using of this Nimloth symbol was pretty reasonable. To show enemy that he is failed to kill all of blessed man and Elf-friends from Númenór.
And Nimloth symbol in look is pretty different from symbol of white tree of Gondor I think.
So after death of Elendil, and later after division of united Kindoms of Dúnedain, they start with using of different symbols for each kingdoms etc. Simply to underline maybe that different heirs are on throne etc.


Yes all of this is true. One note, there were nine ships not seven (according to some papers and Tolkien gateway info)
Seven is number correlated mainly to seven palantirs which they gain from the elves. ;)


I agree with the most of things from this part.
You have right when you say that they are Dúnedain, not Númenoreans, but that is only maybe to underline difference in place where they lived (used in this way in comment). I mean, Dúnedain as name was correlated to Elf-friends. Same correalation with new name, Man of the West.
I want to say, during rule of Elendil (and maybe his sons), in my opinion, usage of that symbols on shields in movies was one of the best things I have seen.
In my opinion, that is symbol of Numloth, not one of Gondors trees in prologe of movies. And as I have said it is the highest symbol of identity of Elendil and his people no matter of place and time where they live. :)
Seven (eight pointed stars by Eldar notes or five points stars by Tolkien first sketch) was corelated mainly on seven palantirs which were also gift from Elves to Elf-friends.
And winged crown of Elendil which is correlated to Elendil and later to royal ruling rights of his heirs. So two part of that Shield general symbol were completely about identity of Elendil and his people (Elf-friends) and one was to note about his ruling rights and heritage. :)
So until Elendil was alive Numloth was there as offical part of general symbol.
After Battle of Dagorlad, when Elendil was dead (and also Anárion died during siege of Barad-dûr), Isildur went for Arnor to rule and Meneldil son of Anárion firt started to use current shape of Gondorian white tree with Elednils winged crown as official symbol for Gondor royal members. So with his rule current shape of Gondorian white tree became official for Gondor.
Meneldil was very serious in order to be independent in Gondor, he was also a bit in fear that Isildur's heirs will rule over Gondor part of united kingdom, because Isildur was also a High King over both kingdoms as his father, and as older son he left for Arnor. So I presume this symbol change was one of steps in order to create some kind independency of house of Anárion and in order to make this house main in ruling term over Gondor.
At the end I really don't have problems with current symbols of Arnor in game, just wanted to say that Numloth symbol was probably used by Elendil and later was replaced by members of house of Anárion with white tree of Minas Tirith.
But its usage in Arnor by royal members also could be lore justified. After all, Arnor was part where Elendil rule in the first place, no matter he was High king of united kingdom.
As, I have said, I really don't have anything against current symbol for Arnor, I think it is very nice and unique.

PS. One more note, there is some misuderstanding about crown of Elendil in my mind...
Currenly I find it very lore wise stuff for Arnor, but on Tolkien gate way, there was information against that a bit. It is said that crown of Elendil was kept in Gondor and it was heritage of kings of Gondor: 
Link (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Crown_of_Gondor)
At the end you have said that you united Elendilmir with Ring of Barahir and Sceptre of Annúminas as unique symbol for Arnor.
How there is probably not good graphical presentation of Elendilmir (which represent 2 star shaped gems set on mithril fillets which Elendil wore  on his brow in place of a crown, as did his son Isildur after him) you present it (visually) as winged crown of Elendil ( or I got confused? ).
And this winged crown somehow by Tolkiend gateway info presents heritage of kings of Gondor. That is maybe small graphical error. Just asking and checking in general. :)

Regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 13. Dez 2015, 21:56
And as I have said it is the highest symbol of identity of Elendil and his people no matter of place and time where they live. :)

That is exactly what I was trying to say. ^^

The White tree is a symbol of Elendils (and Amandils) people, of the Faithful Elf-friends. They are what all of Númenor should have been. But that is exactly what makes them special and why they need a specific symbol for themselves.
They are not "everyday Númenoreans".

The original Númenoreans were all Elf-friends, true, and they got Nimloth as a gift, also true. But it was one gift among many, not the most relevant one, just the most remembered one (and that only because of Isildur).

That's why in my opinion it is justified to differentiate the tree symbol for all of Númenor and for the Faithful Dúnedain. Of course the Númenoreans could have used Nimloth as a symbol, but i think there is no reference that they should have.

But I guess this is another "head canon" question. If you see Nimloth as a relevant focus in Númenor, there is little that I can say against that. ^^

Zitat
One note, there were nine ships not seven (according to some papers and Tolkien gateway info)
Seven is number correlated mainly to seven palantirs which they gain from the elves.
Ah you're right. I'm always mixing that one up. It's basically the seven ships that carried the seven stones...  [ugly]

And yeah, we kindaaa cheated with the crown being the Elendilmir this time. xD
But then again you could say that the crown design from the movie does not depict the right crown anyway (as seen in your link). So I guess it's more a Potato-Potata thing... ;)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: CragLord am 14. Dez 2015, 22:07

I understand that they were perfect example of definition of the Faithful Elf-friends,
and they needed some special symbols to define them among other Númenoreans, but they are only one who survived. In that cource of events I see usage of Nimploth symbol as justified one. They used that symbol on sails of their ships also, I think they keep it for sure during Elendil rule.
Concerning special symbols they had special symbols for them themselves (Elendil has special symbol for himself etc (Not speaking about crown)). But Nimploth symbol was genereal one with palantirs "stars".

Concerning gifts, they presented the most important ones as part of their "official" symbol (Nimloth and palantirs). One of reasons was probably because these gifts have great value for them and they could be presented elegantly as symbols.
Concening other gifts, can you name some of them? Or suggest their symbol representation. :) (I have forgot for specific other gifts, I know there were some, but can't remeber them as particular things as Nimloth or palantirs)

Concerning reference about Numenoreas using Nimloth, you have right probably, or I haven't find it still. :)
I just wanted to point on situation that Elendil used this symbol (on sails of nine ships from Lore), so he probably kept as part of general one later in ME. And meaning of that symbol was pretty clear to him, I think we don't need reference about it (concerning usage in ME)
So in general, there is no reference of general Numenoreans using this symbol.
There is reference for Eledil used it during escape (Isildur also almost died trying to save that heritage), so I think it is logical to conclude that Eledil probably keep it as general one. Later (with separation of kingdoms) it was replaced as general one, but it could be used as Royal one with crown for Eledils heirs in Arnor (In Gondor Meneldil replaced it with Gondorian Tree, it was act of independency in one way). So its replacement in genenal was result of separation of two realms. That's all.


I agree, it is situation Potato-Potata. :D
Have you tried with presentation of Elendilmir from launcher (button run mod) :P
I think that presentation is maybe the closest one to Elendilmir.

Regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Jan 2016, 00:02

Ok, I think that it's time to give the poor Adamin the answer he longed for pretty much time  xD

1. My usage of the expression 'ruling class' meant that the leading figures of Lothlórien (and thus the oldest and most experienced ones of the lore of Arda, as it often happens in the Elven society) were mainly Sindarin, to reach eventually the apex with Celeborn (a Sindarin Prince of Doriath) and our Lady Galadriel (a Noldorin Princess of Tirion).

There are certainly other Sindar in Lothlórien apart from Celeborn and Galadriel (even though she is technically half Telerin, but not Sindarin as this is a subgroup of the Teleri).
Since I'm not as good and efficient as you in finding the exact quotations from the direct source, and since I don't feel like scrolling down pages and pages, I will rely on my memory and head canon  :P

In the Silmarillion, I remember (and it's a quite reliable memory) Tolkien says that, after the Destruction of Doriath, a branch of the refugees of Doriath didn't follow the majority in their flight to the Havens of Sirion, they chose instead to pass through the Blue Mountains and leave Beleriand for the wild yet safer lands of the East, which had been previously populated by the Nandor that had left the main group of the Teleri already in the Years of the Trees, along with some Avari that decided to move to western territories from the ancestral Cuiviénen.
Galadriel and Celeborn led this branch of refugees and reached the green lands of the ancient Eriador, and some went even beyond.

At this point, Tolkien explains that these Sindar merged with the already-existing communities of Nandor to create culturally-mixed 'realms', in which, though, the Sindarin minority always took (with no violence at all or wicked intentions) a leading role, because the Nandor were fascinated by the more 'advanced' knowledge of Doriath and the legendary prestige of the royal members of the Court of Elwë and Melian; the Silvan Elves voluntarily opted for a pacific renunciation of their complete independence to form with those higher Elves realms that would have been remembered in the lore of Middle Earth (as if the Eldar were naturally attracted to any High Elf and desired its company or, better, ruling authority).

This is a recurrent phenomenon that we can clearly see if we consider the Kings and the royal Courts of the Woodland Realm of Mirkwood or Lothlórien itself.
Both these realms were ruled by Sindarin royal families that had established themselves upon the previous Silvan cultures and had their roots in Doriath; in these two cases, Oropher and his son Thranduil, Amdír and Amroth.
So that the arrival of Celeborn and Galadriel in Lothlórien could be seen as one of the last examples of this consolidated 'tradition'.

2. Regarding Galadriel, maybe I didn't explain myself in the best way possible, but what I wanted to point out is that, as I wrote, she is not the common political leader of the kind which we can see in other realities in Middle Earth like Gondor or Rohan.
But, saying that doesn't absolutely mean that she is not a key political figure at all; it's quite an intricate matter, since she is an exception concerning many aspects of hers and her realm.

The common military/political leader I referred to could be characterised by certain actions that aren't actually really conformed to Galadriel.
In fact, it's Celeborn himself who led the army of Lothlórien across the Anduin and took Dol Guldur after the assaults of the same dark fortress (and this is the military aspect); or when Celeborn again met with Thranduil in the deep and eventually purified Mirkwood, renaming the realm and dividing it between themselves (a very 'political' action).
What Galadriel does, I believe, is really exceptional, on another level; with definitely deeper meanings and intentions, as her ethereal nature often hints at in the books via descriptions of unreadable thoughts in her sensational mind or visions that she has while she recalls ancient memories or tries to foresee what will be.

This can be obviously linked to her powers.
Yes, I wrote that (even though it's Tolkien himself who stated it  :P) she was the source and the reason of Lothlórien's endurance through Time and perils, and I would never question that.
I think that my reasoning about political roles doesn't contradict this at all; Galadriel defended too her realm as many other political leaders, but she did it in a deeply different way.
To put it in simple words: she did everything pretty much on her sole own  :)

As she explains to Frodo, the bows of the brave Galadhrim could have never shielded Lórien from such an evil malice (soldiers and weapons, the common 'arsenal' of the average political leaders).
She assured alone the integrity her realm with her Magic and Nenya (easing obviously the work of her soldiers), just like she walked and made the walls of Dol Guldur crumble in front of her Majesty and purified it, after the army of Celeborn had secured the area.
Just like Melian created alone all the magical defences of Doriath, and doomed the realm's fate after her departure from Middle Earth.

Regarding exactly Thingol and Melian, my comparison was basically meant to underline the analogies between those two ruling couples.
Especially, both Melian and Galadriel theoretically don't belong by nature to their own realms (though deeply they could be bound to them), since a Princess of Tirion and even a Maia from Valinor are something beyond the Sindarin core that Thingol and Celeborn embody in Doriath and Lothlórien.
That's why I think that Melian and Galadriel are an exception in their own environments, like two Angels (and Melian is truly an Angel) among 'mortals'; they thus protect and 'rule' their realms in a much more wider and deeper meaning compared to other characters, and they don't naturally belong to the cultural background of the place which they live in.

Last, I would say that I wouldn't give the White Council a so 'active' role and importance in the geopolitics of Middle Earth.
Let me explain: I know for sure that the White Council kept a watchful eye on Middle Earth for centuries, and that it was even forced to use military power too once, in the attack of Dul Guldur.
But, linking this to the main theme of my previous considerations, can we really consider the White Council a common political agent, entitled to maintain an actual order in Arda with a broadly recognised role and authority?
It was the ensemble of the wisest and most powerful beings in the World at that time, but it was also definitely 'elitist' and a bit 'aristocratic', since it indeed had the purpose of preserving the order of the World, but it clearly didn't have the active and leading role of Gondor as the paladin of the Free People against Sauron; secrecy was in fact an important element of the Council, even though we must also say that the 'elites' in Middle Earth are really elites, since they are superior beings by nature (there isn't thus any negative connotation in the word 'elitist', if we refer to the inner majesty and authority of Galadriel, Elrond or the Istari).

Therefore, the role of the White Council was probably more spiritual and symbolic rather than actual, since it was not able (also because it didn't practically have the possibilities and the needed strength) to prevent the return of Sauron and of other hostile characters, and, not unsurprisingly, there was not any representation in itself of neither Gondor nor Rohan, although we know that they were exactly the Humans who would have had the 'duty' to defeat the Evil and take control of the future of the Middle Earth, while the Elves would have ineluctably faded away if they had sailed to Aman or had hidden themselves in remote places throughout the World.
But, I don't obviously want to undermine or question the great importance and authority that the White Council had in the Third Age.
I'm just very interested into possible speculations or insightful opinions that can be gathered about geopolitics, Authority and leading figures of Arda.

It seems that almost everything regarding Arda can be an open question or debate  :P
I'm looking forward to your or others' opinions  ;)

Long live long lore discussions  :D
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 24. Jan 2016, 19:57
Hello Edain Community!

Today I'm interested in starting a discussion on the 3 elven rings of power. They are some of my favorite parts of the lore, and I hope we can all enjoy a good discussion on them.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/e0/be/8c/e0be8c12fdaf732fb30eadcb9f2b1131.jpg)

Note; because the fact that there isn't a huge amount of material on the rings, some of the things I say are my take on them - it might not necessarily be canonical, but I'm extrapolating for what I know of the lore.

Their history - The 3 were forged by Celebrimbor in Eregion after SA 1500, after Annatar (Sauron in disguise) came among the Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the smiths of Eregion. They were forged in secret by Celebrimbor, and were his masterworks, designed to preserve Middle-Earth and recreate the Undying Lands there.

After Sauron's betrayal was made clear, Celebrimbor, at the urging of Galadriel, sent the 3 away from Eregion. Narya and Vilya, the rings of fire and air were sent to Erenion Gil-Galad, High-King of the Noldor, who reigned in Lindon. Nenya, the ring of water (also called the ring of adamant) was sent to Galadriel, who would, as we all know, settle in Lothlorien. Nenya passed with her to the west, and Lothlorien faded without the power of the ring of water. The ring of Fire would pass first to Cirdan, Lord of the Havens, and then to Gandalf when he came to Middle-Earth, and with him it would pass into the west. Gil-Galad entrusted Vilya to his Herald, Elrond, who would use its power to nurture Rivendell throughout the 3rd age, till the power of the 3 was ended, and he passed from Mortal Lands. Rivendell endured for a time in the 4rth age, but it would eventually pass away, as was the fate of all the elven realms in Arda.

Powers: The strengths of the rings were determined by which race it was bound. The 9 rings of men gave long life and incredible powers to their wielders, for men above all else "desired power". The dwarven rings did not give long life, but rather the ability to detect gold and precious minerals. Legend says that each of the 7 hordes of the Dwarf -Lords were built upon a single ring. In time all these hordes and the rings were consumed by dragon-fire, save 3 that Sauron recovered. What happened to them after Barad-Dur fell no story tells, but I believe that their power too passed from the world. And last of the great rings were the 3 Elven rings. The mighty among the elves had no desire for power or for riches, but rather, they desired a realm eternal in Middle-Earth. This dream in particular, was dear to the hearts of the Noldor. (Discussion question - the 3, being so loosely bound to the one, do you think that if the One had not been forged, would have been able to make said eternal realms, and heal the marring, as they might have done? For if they were never bound to the One, their power would never have failed, and the elven realms would have long endured in Middle-Earth, though perhaps they would have faded after many years.)

However, what I find intruiging about the 3 is that while they all have the same elements as the others to a degree (protection, healing, and inspiration, combined with the feeling of timelessness), they each have an 'emphasis' in how they weather the ages.

Narya, ring of fire - Narya inspires those around itself and its bearer, inspiring them to continue living, continue fighting, no matter what may come. There are no descriptions of Mithlond while Cirdan wore Narya, so I cannot say what affect Narya would have on the society of Mithlond. Through force of will does Narya weather time.

Nenya, ring of water - Nenya's power lies in protection, but with that protection comes isolation. Nenya shuts the world out, creating an impenetrable bastion where the passage of time is stopped, and interaction with the outside world is slowed to a near halt, giving those inside Lothlorien an impression of timelessness. This is shown in Lothlorien being the most 'mystical' and isolated of the elven realms. Haldir's brothers Rumil and Orophin cannot speak Westron, and I doubt they are alone in this regard. And they are the wardens, responsible for patrolling the borders, so if anyone should know Westron it should be them. In comparison, most elves in the realms of Imladris, Mirkwood, and Mithlond seem to know the common tongue. Narya weathers time by protecting and creating an environment onto itself, which does not interact with the outside world.

Vilya, the ring of air - Vilya's power is its ability to heal, both body and soul. Rivendell becomes known as a great sanctuary for healing, and is known for its peace and tranquility. In addition, elves of all kindreds (though admittedly majority of them are Noldor) live and contribute to Imladris, healing old divisions to live together in harmony. Vilya stands time not by isolation (though Rivendell is slightly isolationist, its nothing compared to Lothlorien) or by pushing forward with raw determination (as Narya's realm may have done), but by resting in peace and tranquility, healing the hurts the world inflicts through long reflection and coming to terms with what has happened.

In a way, each of the elven rings embodies a piece of Aman's power. Narya embodies the ability of those of the Undying Lands to move forward from Middle-Earth, though they may be sad. Nenya gives form to the isolation and timelessness of the Undying lands. And lastly Vilya is the wellspring of healing that is in the Uttermost West, where no wound is so deep it cannot be healed. Now, obviously they all do all these things to an extent, but they obviously have a focus in a particular area. Vilya still gives protection, Nenya inspiration and Narya can still give healing, but they pale in comparison to the power of the other ring in that area.

Vilya "greatest" of the 3 - Vilya in LOTR is named as the greatest of the 3 elven rings of power. I thought long and hard about why this was. It was the ring of air, and could perhaps be tied to Manwe, who is king of the Valar and Sovereign-Steward of the world. But this left me dissatisfied. So, after thinking some more, this is my conclusion. The power of Vilya lies in healing. The Enemy, both Morgoth and Sauron were eventually corrupted till they could do naught but hate and destroy. And what is healing if not rejuvination and rebirth - the invert of destruction, the tool of the enemy? So the power to heal is greater then the power to destroy - a central theme in Tolkien, I think.

Which of the Elven rings do you believe is greatest (ignore Tolkien's statement about Vilya being greatest when you do this, cause otherwise there's no discussion! Just think about what you know of each of the rings, and which would you bear if you could.)?

I hope you all enjoyed my rambling,

VectorMaximus
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Jan 2016, 12:28
Hi, VectorMaximus  :)
Welcome to the Lore section; it's always great seeing other people interested in the deep foundations of the game and, primarily, of the whole Tolkien's Legendarium!
This board is not currently the most visited of the forum, but I'm definitely sure that we will widen it in time with particular and involving debates  ;)



I will start with saying that this topic has always fascinated me, being obviously deeply intertwined with the destiny and the very mythology of the Noldor of Middle Earth (and of my favourite character, Galadriel), the main core that permeated the events of both the Second Age and the Third Age.

As we previously discussed in your Imladris suggestions thread, these mighty artefacts were conceived as a possible remedy for all the wounds that Arda had to suffer until that time (Second Age), which, by the way, had also partially been the consequences of the War of the Jewels in Beleriand started by the same exiled Noldor (even though the main responsible was obviously Morgoth); a War that inevitably and significantly fashioned the course of Time since the late Third Age and beyond (the consequences in the future caused by sins or faults are a very recurrent theme in most of Tolkien's production).

This is exactly the aspect I love the most about the Three Rings, since they were indeed meant to bring some stability in the World, and the Eldar had really profoundly good intentions, as they always desired the Good for Arda and tried to mend its imperfections according to the gifts granted them by Ilúvatar; but, I also feel kind of sad about it, everytime I think about how the Elves were consequently deceived by Sauron, who exactly twisted their desire and used it against them, fulfilling his final purpose of creating the only and true Master Ring.
The Eldar would have thus always regretted (until the End of Time) having unwillingly helped Sauron to achieve his goal (even though they eventually managed to create the Three as well, which would have kept the Evil at bay for many centuries later).

Speaking about the Three Rings, I like your considerations and agree almost with all of them.
It would indeed be a little bit reductive and diminishing attributing strict and separated powers and functions to the Three, while they all have, as you rightly wrote, similar traits (embodying each of them different aspects of the holy nature of the Undying Lands) on which they focus with different degrees of intensity depending on their own primary characteristics.

My favourite is Nenya, the Ring wielded by the mightiest Elf of the Third Age, and one of the mightiest ones in all the History of Arda.
I think that Nenya had the most 'physical' approach among the Three in the events of the War of the Ring; mixed with Galadriel's own Magic, it infused the whole realm of Lothlórien and directly prevented it from being defeated by multiple assaults from Dol Guldur, because Galadriel too confesses to Frodo that the sole bows and courage of the Galadhrim would have not been enough against the evil devices and plans of Sauron.

Nevertheless, I would agree as well with the fact that Vilya is the greatest among the Three.
Although it didn't have that 'physical role' I referred to in the War of the Ring, I believe that it is the one which reached almost perfectly the purpose of its existence.
Lórien was made timeless and sacred by Nenya, but it's still a realm characterised by a previous Sindarin culture and History.
Rivendell, instead, is truly said to have been made a holy sanctuary by the action of Vilya, always untouched and unaltered by Evil; a place in which all those qualities of Aman were mixed in the best outcome possible, recreating a true 'mortal reflection' of Eressëa, Eldamar or Valinor itself (the deepest desire of Celebrimbor).
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 25. Jan 2016, 15:48
While I agree the white council isn't the most active political entity in middle-earth, I believe it is far more than a mere symbolic or spiritual organization either.

The known members of the white council -
-Erenion Gil-Galad (SA only, obviously)
-The Istari (Gandalf, Saruman, Radaghast, unsure of the Blue Wizards)
-Lady Galadriel
-Lord Elrond
-Cirdan, Lord of Mithlond
-Glorfindel of Gondolin

People I believe likely to be in the white council though not explicantly stated, for "other lords of the Eldar did join them".
-Celeborn (Lord of Lorien)
-Thranduil (King of the Woodland Realm)

I guess these two would be members of the council because of a few reasons. Celeborn is Galadriel's husband, and is a wise and powerful elf in his own right. Thranduil from the books I could see being a member, though his movie edition I could see creating friction in the council. He along with Radaghast would keep a watch on the east for the council, as well as having a vested interest in action against the darkness growing in the east (his realm being closest). In addition, the council already has the Lords of Mithlond and Imladris, as well as the Lady of Lorien. It would make sense to have Mirkwood, and round out the elven realms.

And so, while it is true the only 'direct' action that the council takes against Sauron is to assault Dolgul-Dur, I doubt it is its only function (coordinating the war against sauron, that is, though that was what it was made for undoubtedly). The council also serves as a forum and meeting place of the isolated Elven-Realms, where they can share intel, discuss any outstanding issues, etc. I imagine this is what the first White Council, arranged by Gil-Galad, was for. For those who don't know, the White Council is a lot older then some think. It first shows up in 'The History Galadriel and Celeborn', from the Unfinished Tales, so its canon is in question, but I take it as canon. This first council was called by Gil-Galad after the Sack of Eregion and the Founding of Imladris. It was determined at this meeting that Imladris would be the stronghold of the Noldor in Eriador outside Lindon, and Vilya was gifted to Elrond at this meeting as well. The meeting was also about what the elven realms could and should do now that Sauron had been pushed out of Eriador and back to Mordor. These collective actions, meetings, and intel sharing would eventually culminate in all the Elves of Middle-Earth fighting under the de-facto leadership of Gil-Galad in the Last Alliance.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Jan 2016, 17:53
Maybe I forgot to mention it: I am mainly focusing on the White Council in the Third Age, ruled by its chief Saruman, and its general role and essence in that same age, because the previous discussion indeed dealt primarily with that same period.
Therefore, it's true, the White Council of the Second Age could have easily had a more 'dynamic' approach, considering the fact that Elves were abysmally more prominent in those times and that the High King of the Noldor himself was alive.

Another personal note.
I usually refuse to view The History of Galadriel and Celeborn as canon, because I would be consequently forced to reject the idea of her following the other Noldorin Princes through Araman and, eventually, Helcaraxë, in what has probably been the hardest and most perilous journey of the Noldor themselves.
I don't want to go into details about that version (also because I was never really interested in it), but I personally believe that it makes Galadriel different, more 'docile' and innocent, erasing her feeling of guilt for having been part of the Rebellion of her kin (although with specific differences from her cousins) and having abandoned the Blessed Realm.

About the White Council, my post didn't really imply that the White Council didn't have any kind of significant 'consulting purposes' among the Wise.
I was pointing out its elitist element (and I already explained that I don't mean anything negative with this word), which leads it not to have that collective and leading role among the Free People (an attribution of Human kind, as the race destined to rule the World), or to have a part in the War of the Ring as an institution itself (because their members had different and personal roles in the War).
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 25. Jan 2016, 19:05
I personally do not take most of what is in 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn' as canon. It contradicts the existing story too much, and much like you, I feel it cheapens Galadriel as a character.

What I meant by "I take it as Canon", is that I take the white council in the second age as canon. Some people have written it off in discussions I've had simply because it's in the Unfinished Tales. While some things in that book, as I'm sure we both know, shouldn't be considered part of the canon, the small parts and tidbits that fill in holes in the universe are perfectly acceptable in my opinion. Information such as the SA white council, Elrond's Vice-Regency, the Tale of Cirion and Eorl, Aldarion and his wife, things like that I consider canon because they fill in non-existentant parts of the lore, or at worst contradict a few minor facts, while giving us so much more.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Jan 2016, 21:06
I understood that you didn't like that version as well, I was just making a personal statement on my own  :)

And, you are right, that version 'cheapens' indeed Galadriel, diverting so much from the original and 'pure' source of the Silmarillion, that I consider the spiritual heart of the whole Legendarium, even if it seems, sometimes, to be a sort of rough and incomplete material.
Especially, along with the arrival of Galadriel in Middle Earth, I really don't like the fact that Celeborn is not a Sindarin Prince at the court of Elwë in Doriath or that Galadriel didn't take part in the Rebellion and even had the allowance of the Valar to leave Aman (really contradictory, as you wrote).

I have no problem with the White Council in the Second Age, honestly.
Just, I am definitely more focused on its counterpart in the Third Age  ;)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 31. Jan 2016, 03:20
That's a very interesting discussion, but I'm afraid now it's my turn to just not having the time to give a proper answer to this, I'm sorry...

But I spotted something interesting in another thread that I would like to examine a bit closer here.

My personal vote goes for Celebrimbor. While the Shadow of Mordor game is not canonical obviously, and the fact that Celebrimbor is a spirit barred from the undying lands more so; Sauron would not have the might, nor the Valar reason to bar him, since his only sin was being deceived, something Sauron has done to plenty of people over the years(can anyone say Numenor?), at least he had good intentions in his failings, and he did save the 3.

(Obviously this does not strictly speaking belongs into the Lore Corner, but since imho Shadow of Mordor works pretty good with the Lore, it's worth examining.)

There is actually a reason given in the game on why Celebrimbor stayed as a Wraith in Middle-earth. After the destruction of Eregion and the death of Celebrimbors family Sauron takes Celebrimbor back to Mordor as a captive. The Dark Lord has a Problem: The One Ring shines like a beacon in the darkness to every Elf who uses a Ring of Power. That is how they immediately knew of Annatars deception (something that btw is never really questioned in the books).

But Sauron still wants to finish his plans in secrecy. So he takes Celebrimbor, the only other great Ringsmith, back to Mordor and forces him to finish the One Ring, to hide its powers. Celebrimbor is stricken by grief over his loss, and overcome by a desire for vengeance. He agrees to work on the One Ring, but in secret he plots to betray Sauron as well. While working on the Ring, Celebrimbor puts a small piece of his own Power into the Ring, thus gaining control over it. In an unguarded moment, he slips the Ring off Saurons finger and flees into Mordor.

What follows is told in the Bright Lord DLC for the game, but the main issue is here:
Celebrimbor did the same thing that Sauron himself did. The Elf fused a piece of his own Power with the One Ring. So like Sauron he became bound to the Ring. Like Sauron Celebrimbor cannot die as long as the One Ring exists. So he wanders around Mordor as a bodyless Wraith, in search of all the things he lost...

At least that is what happens in the game, and it is in my opinion a very skillful rendition of the scenario What if a high Elf would use the One Ring.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 2. Feb 2016, 20:33
At least that is what happens in the game, and it is in my opinion a very skillful rendition of the scenario What if a high Elf would use the One Ring.
An idea for some ingame Ring hero? anyone?  xD
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 6. Feb 2016, 21:08
This is something I read up on reddit about an Ent gaining the One Ring which I actually found to be quite interesting to discuss. When I say Ent, though, I mostly think of Treebeard.

As a preliminary I think it is important to understand what it is the Ring does exactly for any newcomers. As far as I know, the Ring gives entities the power they need to realize their deepest desire and then corrupts the heck out of them. This is best shown by Gandalf's reaction when Frodo offers him the ring.
Zitat
Don't tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep it safe. Understand Frodo, I would use this Ring from a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine.
Gandalf realizes that from this desire to do good would sprout evil, even continuing on (in the novel), and saying he does not wish to become a Dark Lord himself.

Now let's have a look at what happened if Treebeard wielded it. Many people mentioned that it would probably have no effect but that's no fun so I'll go directly to the second option where he takes the Ring a his own and wield its power.

Treebeard is an Ent, a shepherd of trees, his role is to keep trees "in-check" largely speaking but he desires nothing more then to find the Entiwives which he believes are lost, presumed dead. Drawing from his reaction at the destruction of the forest it is reasonable to say he also wishes to protect his kind. Therefore if he were to gain the power of the One Ring it is possible that he would act similar to the Elves and try to preserve the forest by all means. This could possibly include waging war upon all other creatures that use wood, especially the Orc, most probably killing Saruman with his own hands. The corruption that is caused by the One Ring would lead him to become quite careless of his fellow's Ent lives, setting his eyes only upon the final point of total victory.

In the end they would easily destroy Isengard with their new power, probably Rohan which had severe serious casualties and with their only fortress breached. As for Gondor and Mordor I don't think it would be very likely, even hypothesizing that the power the Ring awakens all the Ents that had become trees breaching the door would be complicated but possible however hunting down every human would be a lengthy job. Destroying Mordor on the other side would be straight up impossible, they are too big to take the pass of Cirith Ungol and the Black Gate is most probably made of a Material stronger then the Orthanc. In addition Mordor loves fire ammo of all sorts. The final result would be a maimed Gondor, a destroyed Rohan, Isengard and possibly Elves who have no weapons against trees, not even axes. In addition the Ring would by pried from the cold dead corpse of Treebeard and given back to Sauron assuring a complete doom for Middle Earth.

*insert Ent joke about being hasty*  xD

I'm curious to know what you think of it. But I most interested about hearing what you thought of the power level estimation. Do you think Treebeard would have gained enough power to siege Mordor or less power that he would be defeated at the gates of Minas Tirith. I'm also wondering whether he would actually attack Middle-Earth or if he would go on a long journey to find the Entwives. Anyway, hope to hear from you guys
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 6. Feb 2016, 22:10

Since this topic could be the beginning of a nice and interesting lore debate, I think it should be better merging it with the main and appropriate thread for lore debates  :)

MERGED with: http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30753.msg388567.html#msg388567
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 8. Feb 2016, 15:55
I had completely forgotten that Celebrimbor had bound himself to the ring in SOM. :D When I was typing that, I was thinking about the line from the game "you are banished from death".  Couldn't remember if it was said to Talion or Celebrimbor, but at the time I thought it was said to Celebrimbor by Sauron. If that's so, it would seem like a ban on him entering Mandos, so hence why I did my complaints about him (Sauron) not having the power nor the Valar motive. It's been a long time since I've played the game.


At least that is what happens in the game, and it is in my opinion a very skillful rendition of the scenario What if a high Elf would use the One Ring.

Is that a hint towards the Imladris Ring Hero? ;)

That aside, I absolutely agree with what you said Adamin. The game does give a very good reason for him being a spirit after all.

 If we consider the SOM game canon, could it be that Celebrimbor's part of the ring (where he sealed his Power), helped to sustain Frodo or whoever would wield the one? Or would it have repressed by Sauron's will except when Celebrimbor himself wielded it? And by that same conclusion, while Sauron's will is what dominates the ring, because he is also bound to it, could Celebrimbor use its powers without ill affect? The only ill affect the ring has in the Bright Lord campaign is that it betrays him for Sauron, but as stated above, he makes more of the overall percentage of the ring's 'Soul'. Before that battle, Celebrimbor doesn't seem to have that many ill effects from the ring, save some arrogance, pride and anger, which is already in his blood (FEANOR!). At least that I remember, but as I said before, its been a long time since I've played the game.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 8. Feb 2016, 17:57
To be honest I've never really played the game  xD Though I did watch all the cinematics on YT.
Anyway, I always thought of the ring as Sauron himself.
Ok, if you use a lense to focus the light and burn a paper, the energy that came from the lense if still the light itself before the lense.
So if the Sauron made the Ring to be his "lense", the power of the Ring is nothing more that Sauron himself. Now, I don't think you can alter someone's spirit in a way that you add something of yourself to it.

About this whole story of Sauron (the greatest craftsman in middle earth) needing Celebrimbor's help to finish the ring is, and sorry for the word, bullshit.
It quite sili to think that the one who taught the Elves how to make the rings in the first place, would need assistance from an Elf to make the ultimate weapon :o
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Feb 2016, 18:19
You totally have my endorsement, hoho  8-)

With total respect for the game (that I never played) and its developers, that interpretation/version is totally rubbish, and I would never even accept it as a possible speculation.

Yes, the One Ring is basically the Will of Sauron objectified and bound to a material object.
Although it has different effects depending on people's own characteristics, the One Ring is totally complete in itself, and its inner essence could never be altered (diminish or augment) by anyone's actions.
Furthermore, thinking that Sauron needed help for the forging of the Master Ring is nonsense as well, because he didn't need the Elves to widen his knowledge, but he 'needed' them to eventually use them as puppets and achieve more quickly his evil purposes.

It was him who taught them the secret formula of the Rings of Power's nature, which inevitably characterises and binds the holy Three Rings as well; the formula that makes the fate of all the Rings intertwined with the one of the One Ring.

This is Sauron's idea of needing someone: Slavery  xD

That's why Celebrimbor and the Eldar in general always mourned and regretted having unintentionally helped Sauron in his plan.
I think that this iconic and recurrent track from LOTR entirely expresses the Elves' sorrow and resentment  :)
It's called: The seduction of the One Ring.

Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Fredius am 8. Feb 2016, 18:28
Omg I love that soundtrack! It always plays in the evil campaign map of bmfe1 (**)! Hearing Saruman speaking about the conquest of Middle-Earth and this soundtrack playing in the background while the camera moves across the Middle-Earth map is really one of the most thrilling experiences ever!
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Feb 2016, 18:40
Omg I love that soundtrack! It always plays in the evil campaign map of bmfe1 (**)! Hearing Saruman speaking about the conquest of Middle-Earth and this soundtrack playing in the background while the camera moves across the Middle-Earth map is really one of the most thrilling experiences ever!


Exactly  :P

And, do we want to talk about the Good Campaign's soundtrack?
In the Italian version of BFME1, it's Galadriel the narrator of the events (not Gandalf), and there is the Grey Havens theme in the background, played in the end of ROTK, when Frodo, Bilbo and the Guardians of the Three sail to the West  (**)
As if the track wanted to tell ''You are the last hope for Middle Earth''  8-)

Very heartwarming and comforting, I would say  :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Fredius am 8. Feb 2016, 19:10
Really? I don't know what the soundtrack is called in the English version, but it's the same as the one that plays at the beginning of the vanilla Rise of the Witch-King trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-6G4wj9_eM
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Feb 2016, 19:18
Correct.
Here it is  ;)


It's arguably my favourite theme from LOTR.
It's both sad yet holy, as Tolkien describes the silent journey of Galadriel, Elrond, other High Elves and the Hobbits from the Shire to the Grey Havens (he literally writes Holy Sadness).

Yes, in the books it's the opposite.
Gandalf is in the Havens waiting for Galadriel, Elrond and the Hobbits to come.
And, Galadriel rides a white horse  (**)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Fredius am 8. Feb 2016, 19:26
Well since the Rise of the Witch-King I think about the beauty that Arnor once was everytime I hear that soundtrack (because of the damn trailer :D)! It is indeed a beautifull soundtrack.

Speaking of which I find BFME2 original ost very great. At moments I find them greater then many LOTR or Hobbit soundtracks; don't hate me for it [ugly]!
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 8. Feb 2016, 20:43
@ hoho & Val: I'm just using the game to think creatively about what we got from the books and how it correlates. The game is taking many liberties, I'm not denying that, but it's core ideas do have some substance to them. If you engage with it. ;)

Sauron (the greatest craftsman in middle earth)
Is there a source for this? I know that this association seems fitting, with Sauron being a Maia of Aule, but are there any more examples to this except the One Ring?
Generally speaking the greatest craftsman to ever be in Middle-earth (no matter how short) would most definetly be Fëanor. ;)


needing Celebrimbor's help to finish the ring
Maybe finishing was a bad choice of words on my part. Speaking in game lore: The Ring was definetly finished and completed in its function by Sauron. It enhanced Saurons Powers and could dominate the Will of other lesser Ringbearers. But in doing so the Ring revealed itself. Celebrimbor did not alter or enhanced any of the Rings power, he only hid/cloaked its influence in the minds of others. And it makes sense that he, as an Elf, would have a better understanding than Sauron of what Elves could perceive.
So Sauron did finish his ultimate weapon on his own. But he used Celebrimbor to give the Ring an elvish advantage.


It quite sili to think that the one who taught the Elves how to make the rings in the first place, would need assistance from an Elf
Weeeell... Wouldn't it also be silly to think that a theoretical physicist could build a flawless rocket on the first try? ^^
As far as I understand the Silmarillion Sauron taught the Elves many things in lore and magic. He (quote) guided their labours, but the real smithing of the Rings of Power was exclusively made by the Elves. So I'd say its not farfetched to think that the Elves, and Celebrimbor most of them, had a much more practical understanding of Ringmaking than Sauron. And hey, that's not really an accusation or something. Saurons Ring did work after all. I'm just saying that we don't have to think of the One Ring as flawless. And SoM plays with that.


Although it has different effects depending on people's own characteristics, the One Ring is totally complete in itself, and its inner essence could never be altered (diminish or augment) by anyone's actions.
Again, where exactly do you get that from? It sounds logical yes, but isn't that rather an extended association with the fact that the Ring could never be destroyed by anyone?
I mean, if we assume that Saurons Will is the essence of the One Ring, then just by the fact that someone (quote) sufficiently strong and heroic by nature (http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30753.msg396721.html#msg396721) can overthrow Saurons Will and control the One Ring the essence has been altered! The primary driver has been changed.

The result would be the same of course, the new Lord of the Ring would be just another Sauron. But I would argue that this result is not necessarily Saurons Influence, but rahter just an elemental trait of Evil.
Though I admit that this distinction is hard to pinpoint... It boils down to the question: Is the Ring evil because it is from Sauron, or is the Ring from Sauron because of Evil?  [ugly]
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Feb 2016, 13:46
Sorry, Adamin, if I seemed to be too judgemental about the game.

But, as much as I love lore speculations, creativity and wandering in the vast spaces of the lore itself, I have to disagree with you  :)
We are not talking about speculations, this time, but about something that significantly diverts from the lore, so that, as I wrote, it wouldn't be acceptable at this extent.
It's true that Tolkien's production presents various and sometimes multifaceted surfaces that seem to contradict themselves, and, as you know, I like discussing about this type of matters.
Though, the interpretation of the game is not just a liberty, but rather a vision that disrupts that common law in Tolkien's lore; that common and shared basic structure upon which we often build our debates.

So, since I want to be generous, I will answer you point by point  :D

1. Sauron is the greatest Maia ever existed, not really due to his physical strength and power (Ungoliant and Gothmog are likely to surpass him in strength), but, as the author reminds us, for his abilities, knowledge and extremely dangerous deceiving plans and purposes.
As the greatest scholar of Aulë, he undoubtedly was the greatest craftsman in the specific period we are dealing with (the Second Age), no matter how Celebrimbor or Fëanor could have been skilled and renowned for their knowledge.
Sauron is the source of all the knowledge and 'input' that the Elves receive in the forging of the Rings of Power; it's Sauron the initial and ultimate pivotal actor of the whole process, especially because everything eventually turned out to his advantage (the One Ring and his Plan).

And, a bit off-topic consideration: Fëanor is indeed the greatest craftsman of all time (as we are constantly told in the Silmarillion), but I would rather see this title inside the dimension of the Noldor or the Eldar themselves.
I mean, this kind of titles often leaves me a bit puzzled when it comes to compare extremely powerful Elves to the Ainur (Maiar and Valar).
It's true that even the Valar could have never created something akin to the Silmarils, but it's also true that the Ainur's standards are absolutely on another level, having created Arda in the first place and other wonders like Valinor itself and the Two Trees.
And, as Tulkas (if I remember correctly) exactly reminds Fëanor, the Light that gives life to his Jewels is something that belongs primarily to the Valar, implying that they too could have 'claimed' some rights on the Silmarils if they had really wanted to.
Besides, I am manifestly a pro-Valar person, so it's definitely a very personal opinion of mine  xD

2. Honestly, I didn't exactly get what you want to say when you talk about Celebrimbor's role in the creation of the One Ring.
And, to answer also your following point, as I previously wrote, I always regarded the role of the Elves in the forging of the Rings as a role totally subjected to the directives given by Sauron.

What I understand and think, reading the Silmarillion, is that Sauron (according to his famous and well known attitude and nature) never needed the aid of the Elves as a concrete help in widening and perfecting his knowledge; he had already conceived his plan from the beginning, as his false promises as Annatar (about recreating Valinor in the World) suggest.
He knew that the Elves of Eregion were delighted and skilled in those arts, but he needed them to have puppets to use in order to make sure that enough Rings of Power would have been created and distributed to each race.
Sauron is smarter than he seems to, I think: even though he didn't know about the secret of the Three Rings, he knew that his founding secret formula would have affected every creation of that kind anyway, being him aware or not.
That's why he's always been a serious threat, because he always manages to drag everyone in his web, one way or the other  [ugly]

3. Celebrimbor was never aware of the One Ring until Sauron himself revealed his true intentions, nor did he ever contribute in the conceiving of any of its magical characteristics.
Keep in mind, also, that it's true that only the Elves immediately unveiled Sauron's true purposes (and that they are generally more farsighted than the other races), but it's also due to the fact that the other Rings had not been distributed yet at that moment, and Sauron waged war to Eregion/Eriador exactly to reclaim them.

4. I think I don't need specific quotes to explain the One Ring's particular traits; a lot of references speak for themselves, I guess  :)

What I meant was that, once the One Ring has been created, its essence has always remained perfect in itself and utterly unaltered.
That means that the only things that can take place are the possibilities of the Master Ring surviving the flow of Time and keeping its integrity untouched, or it being destroyed and consequently having its essence annihilated completely.
I'm well aware of which effects it could have on different people, but everything depends exactly on those people's characteristics (as Galadriel reminds Frodo when he asks if he could have ever used the One Ring to dominate others); no one could do something in between, like altering its powers in any way.

The One Ring is Sauron objectified.
His final goal conceived from his imagination, come into existence and accomplished.
I don't honestly know how Celebrimbor could have ever had any role in this process; it's highly contradictory and wrong.

Adding to it, if that person you mentioned could really be able to overthrow Sauron, he would overthrow the 'physical Sauron'.
Sauron's Will will always remain bound to the One Ring until it exists.

Furthermore, I think we could start other debates about the One Ring's true nature (I read that some people believe it kind of developed a Will on its own, different from Sauron's), but I guess it would be a too much wide discussion.

5. I would also like to add another point.
Celebrimbor existing as a Spirit in the Unseen and wandering throughout Middle Earth is highly improbable and contradictory too.

All the Elves are inevitably bound to pass into the Halls of Mandos as they die.
If their spirits are too mournful and don't deserve to be admitted again in Valinor as blessed Elves, they remain in the Halls of Mandos, mourning forever for their sad fate, as it happens with Fëanor, his Sons and other Eldar.

Along with the previous points, this game's vision contradicts too that shared/common basic structure of the lore I referred to above.
That's why I can't accept it.
You know that I'm not at all a Tolkien purist, but I can't personally accept it anyway  ;)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 12. Feb 2016, 23:07
What common basic structure are you talking about Val? If it's so basic, please describe it in just three sentences or fewer. :D
Right now I'm not really sure what you mean by that. And you commented on so much that I don't really know what it's supposed to refer to.

Also yeah, I guess it's kinda pointless to argue about a game that you haven't even played. So I'll try to keep my further arguments purely based on lore. I anyway only want to comment on some lore understanding points.

It's a bit surprising to me how highly you seem to value Sauron. For me a great craftsman has to primary create things, whereas Sauron created nothing by himself except the One Ring. But maybe I'm missing something, so please, show me the specific point in the Texts where Sauron is called Aules greatest scholar.
True, Fëanors creation can hardly compare to the creation of Arda itself (btw neither can Saurons), but at least Fëanor created more than one thing. ;)

Zitat
Besides, I am manifestly a pro-Valar person, so it's definitely a very personal opinion of mine  xD
Then I assume there is no point in discussing the Ainur and their various missteps and flaws, if you already made up your mind about them. ;)

The Elves cannot be totally subjected to the directives given by Sauron for forging the Rings, because we know that Celebrimbor forged the Three Elven Rings without Sauron. So he definetly had some proficiency in Ring Forging on his own.
Also, Sauron originally wanted to use the lesser Rings purely to dominate the Elves, for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance. (quote: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)
Giving the Rings to the Dwarves and Men was just Saurons Plan B, after the Elves found out about the One Ring (and consequently stopped using their lesser rings). Therefor Sauron most definetly had not conceived everything from the beginning.

And that is my main point: Sauron didn't reveal the One Ring on purpose. All Elves with Rings knew of it and its powers the moment Sauron put it on his finger. This flaw of the Ring, that the Elves immediatly perceived it, is never exactly explained and never brought up again in the texts. SoM now only asks this question: What if Sauron would have, after the destruction of Eregion, tried to correct the mistake that he himself made, by using the next best Ringsmith, who also probably better understood how Elves perceived things.

Zitat
Sauron's Will will always remain bound to the One Ring until it exists.
Of course, Sauron cannot die while the Ring exists. I only wanted to stress that another Ringwielder would not be posessed by Saurons Will through the Ring. Galadriel or Gandalf with the Ring could theoretically use the Rings Power to defeat Sauron (in Body and Will), but would finally turn evil on their own because the purpose of the One Ring inevitably leads to evil.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Feb 2016, 03:51
Yes, it's the basic structure of the Tolkien's Legendarium.
If you want, you may also call it pillars of the lore or foundations of Arda, it doesn't matter; what it matters is the meaning  ;)

Taking into consideration that it is something basic, this implies that it is something one could always guess from particular elements; the general law that stands behind everything and gives everything an ordered sense.
But, if you really need an example: once we know that all the Elves are inevitably bound to leave the World when they die and that their spirits reach the Halls of Mandos, we can't thus accept by logic a vision like the one the game proposes, with a spirit of a High Elf wandering around Middle Earth without rest nor relief.
Or, another example: if we are told via the Manwë's messenger's words that Fëanor or any Elf could have never defeated Morgoth even if Fëanor himself had been made three times bigger by Ilúvatar, then we can't logically accept any vision that consists of any Elf defeating Morgoth by its own hands.

Before you might misunderstand my words as something coming from a purist, with 'accepting something' I obviously intend considering something as canon and thus worthy of being discussed and being the object of the lore speculations that we like so much, regardless of which of the many and sometimes contradictory versions of Tolkien we choose to examine.
I know it could sound as something mechanical and governed by strict and cold logic, but I see it instead as something that 'protects' the lore and allows us to actually make debate about it with less confusion and with a general picture in mind of what the true spirit of these texts could have been.
Because, as Valinor teaches, great things must also be defended in order to exist  :D

I didn't play the game, but this doesn't mean that I don't know anything about it.
I was exactly interested in the lore points you made; I didn't intend to discredit the game just for the sake of doing it  :)
As I wrote above, the game can be about whatever the authors want to, but the very game's vision wounds so much the lore that it can't be acceptable (with that exact meaning of 'accepting' I referred to above).
Do you have in mind the image of Éowyn agonising on the ground, strengthless and harmless after the confrontation with the Witch-king?
That is how that game's vision turns the lore into, in my opinion  xD

Being a pro-Valar person doesn't mean that I forgive everything they did, or forget their flaws.
I think I left a couple of comments in an Imladris-related thread in the Edain Suggestions board and in the Annals of Aman about the Valar's sins, and how, in the end, they were kind of right; they will probably explain to you my position better, if you are interested into it.
Well, you know, they are angelic beings that existed before the beginning of Time and Space, after all.
They surely know two or three things that Fëanor didn't know, like the Destiny of the Universe and other stuff  :D

Sauron was the greatest and most dreadful servant of Morgoth, exactly for his diverse and variegated abilities; but, in my opinion, his real might gradually reveals itself through the Ages of Arda, via the fact that he managed against Time and many hostile situations to have a prominent role until the very end of the Third Age, no matter what, and that his webs are always intertwined with pretty much every significant event of Middle Earth.

What I wanted to say with my previous comment is that Sauron was indeed the main actor in all the process of the forging of the Rings of Power, willingly and unwillingly.
I don't want to undermine Celebrimbor's or the other smith Elves' abilities, but it's always important remembering that it was Sauron who taught them in the first place that secret formula (you can call it with other names, if you want) which is nothing more than the founding essence of every Ring, good and evil, being Sauron aware or not.
This is probably the saddest aspect, the fact that every Ring would have thus been inevitably bound to the One Ring, regardless of all the efforts that Celebrimbor poured into his creations; because even the Three Rings are inevitably bound to that formula (even though they were initially kept hidden).
Celebrimbor added his own personal contribution to the Rings of Power, it's true; but we shouldn't forget that it was Sauron who gave him and the others that basic and secret knowledge of the art of the Rings of Power.
I think our positions differ a bit regarding what type of role we apply to Sauron in the whole process; but I believe that Tolkien made clear that it was Sauron who made it everything possible and that his betrayal had always been present in his plan from the beginning.

So, taking into consideration the comparison I made about the Silmarils' Light and the original one of the Two Trees (speaking about claiming rights), we could say that Sauron could be as well seen as the legitimate owner of all the Rings of Power (included the Three) as his knowledge/formula flows in all of them regardless of their specific nature.
Sauron is the true and only Lord of the Rings.

Regarding the One Ring, I think that you are missing the point that, once Sauron created it, its Will in the artefact has become independent from Sauron himself; the same Sauron's Will but loosened by the very physical limits of Sauron.
This means that the Will of Sauron could never be defeated if the One Ring is not destroyed.
Galadriel could have defeated (not killed) Sauron with the Ring, but the very Sauron's Will would have slowly corrupted her and turned her into a tyrant, as she admits.
But, I don't really understand why you seem to separate the fact that the One Ring is evil and the Will of Sauron contained in it.
They are the same thing; it's that Will that makes the Ring evil and gives it its known and dreadful properties.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 13. Feb 2016, 08:50
Ooh, now I get it. Well in that case there is no problem, because this law
once we know that all the Elves are inevitably bound to leave the World when they die and that their spirits reach the Halls of Mandos, we can't thus accept by logic a vision like the one the game proposes, with a spirit of a High Elf wandering around Middle Earth without rest nor relief.
is not violated. In SoM Celebrimbor did not die, at least in the same sense that Sauron does not die, because they both bound themselves to the One Ring.


Zitat
Being a pro-Valar person doesn't mean that I forgive everything they did, or forget their flaws. I think I left a couple of comments in an Imladris-related thread in the Edain Suggestions board and in the Annals of Aman about the Valar's sins, and how, in the end, they were kind of right;
Right there, you immediatly forgave them everything! :D
You can't have your cake and eat it too Val. And I know that you would very much like to. ;) 
The Valar made mistakes, and they ultimately lead to good things, but the mistakes were not good in themselves. The outcome does not justify wrong intentions.


Zitat
So, taking into consideration the comparison I made about the Silmarils' Light and the original one of the Two Trees (speaking about claiming rights), we could say that Sauron could be as well seen as the legitimate owner of all the Rings of Power (included the Three) as his knowledge/formula flows in all of them regardless of their specific nature.
Sauron is the true and only Lord of the Rings.
Then you're disregarding another of Tolkiens basic structures: Creation and Subcreation. Everything in Arda is ultimately a Subcreation of Eru, but the Subcreator still came up with his/her creation themselves. There is no claiming rights, because the Silmarils would not have been without Fëanor. Tulkas may reminded him that their Light originally came from Yavanna (not that it belongs to the Valar), but Aule (being a Subcreator himself) is immediatly defending him.

Of course, Sauron himself definetly sees it that way, that he is the legitimate owner of all rings. Because claiming ownership, or in other words seeking dominion, is always an evil action in Tolkiens Legendarium. ;)
Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
But [Sauron], finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel.


I'm so adamant on differentiating Saurons Will and the Rings evil influence, because that is one of Tolkiens main structures:
Zitat von: The Fellowship of the Ring, the Council of Elrond
For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so.
There is no purely evil presence in Arda, no black and white characters. You become evil by disregarding others and focusing on yourself. Yes, in the Third Age Sauron and his Will have turned to evil, but they don't just make a wielder evil.
The Ring corrupting you is not just Saurons fault, and that makes it that much more meaningful! 
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 13. Feb 2016, 19:52
I've read a lot about this question but I never got a truly satisfying answer, always little bits and pieces remained hidden in the mist. So here it is:

What would have been Sauron's course of action had he regained the ring? (let's say Gollum danced around a little bit more and Frodo tripped into the lava meaning the Nazguls made it back in time to Mount. Doom to cease the ring)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Feb 2016, 01:58
I'm afraid it does contradict the lore though.
Celebrimbor was never aware of the One Ring until Sauron's revelation, nor did he ever contribute to its creation.
This vision is still contradictory, no matter which side we decide to look at it from  :)
Again, I don't want to persecute that game, but it's also true that it shouldn't theoretically be possible constructing solid lore considerations upon it.

Ok, maybe I didn't explain correctly what I intended with the fact that Sauron could claim the Rings' legitimate ownership, and that those Rings could belong to Sauron at an extent.
As you rightly wrote, I meant the act of claiming something's spiritual and symbolic ownership, related deeply to the same claiming person, even if the person itself didn't create that something in the first place.
To explain things far better, the Silmarils could serve us well as a great example.

When Fëanor died, the Silmarils were yet to be gained back, and the Sons of Fëanor themselves always believed to rightly claim as theirs the ownership of those Jewels.
But, we also know that Varda had personally hallowed the very Silmarils not to make them be touched by evil hands; hands that would have thus not deserved their ownership regardless of anyone's genealogical ties with the initial creator.
And, if you permit me, I would even push myself further: regardless of the creator itself.
I think that it might be reasonable imagining that Fëanor himself must have lost his legitimate ownership of the Silmarils after the crimes he committed in Aman – parallel to what exactly happened to his Sons in Beleriand – and he therefore would have probably got his hands burnt as well if he had ever rescued his Jewels from Morgoth's hands.
The Valar exactly reminded Fëanor of this before his departure from the Immortal Lands, and we thus can see why Tulkas also remembered him where the Silmarils' Light originally came from and why Yavanna suggested him hand his creation to the Lords of Valinor, who would have made a definitely better usage out of them.
And, Aulë doesn't technically defend Fëanor during the Valar's Council and the summoning of Fëanor at their behest; he 'just' sympathetically acknowledges what difficulty might have been the departing of the creation from its creator (he never really speaks openly against the other Valar).

So, yes, I was referring to this important theme in the structure: the legitimate and 'spiritual' ownership of something and the very loss of the same due to evil deeds.
Just like Beren and Lúthien, who had never had any type of personal references to the Silmarils, were rightly worthy of holding one of them in their hands, because they truly deserved its ownership, as their following kin would have done until Eärendil; that Silmaril still belongs to the Mariner, and I really believe that Eärendil entirely and rightly deserves it, more than Fëanor could have ever done.
Therefore, what I did was basically applying this theme to Sauron in a totally evil perspective.
That's why I wrote that he could have had some reasons in claiming all the Rings as his, even if he wasn't the actual creator of all of them.
I don't really justify his actions, I'm just trying to understand what his reasons could have consisted of  ;)

I certainly disagree with you about your vision of the One Ring, and I don't really think how that quote about the evil/corruption theme could ever prove me right or wrong in any way  xD
The One Ring was not something that was originally corrupted; it was created from the beginning with the exact purpose of making a master evil artefact.
What I really disagree with the most is the fact that your vision might imply the existence of another evil 'something' that coexists beside the already existing evil Will of Sauron; so that it could seem that the One Ring (perfect and complete in itself) could be altered positively or negatively in its nature by external forces that are not the One Ring's very destruction (the only alteration of its status that could be accepted).
Yes, the secret mystery of the One Ring gets darker and darker...  :D

Regarding the Valar, if you read closely my statements you will notice that I never forgive them and always acknowledge the Archangels' faults.
But, if 'forgiving' means attributing the just merit in the final outcome and display of events, I totally forgive them  8-)
I will do some fair considerations.


No, no, no  :D


Nevertheless, I hope we could develop the I hate Fëanor/the Valar are wrong debate even further, if you want, Ada  :P

What would have been Sauron's course of action had he regained the ring? (let's say Gollum danced around a little bit more and Frodo tripped into the lava meaning the Nazguls made it back in time to Mount. Doom to cease the ring)


I think that the answer is rather simple, and that we can refer to Galadriel's line in her foreseeing in TTT, whe she telepathically talks to Elrond  :)

For Sauron will have dominion of all life on this Earth, even unto the ending of the World (the End of Time).
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 18. Feb 2016, 14:07
Hello Edain Community! :)

Due to comments in the Imladris siege thread about the 'lesser' rings of power (AKA the Magic Rings), I thought it would be prudent to make a lore page about them and compile what I know.

Note, however, that even less is known about the lesser rings then the 3, 7, or 9, so a fair portion of this will be speculation and majority views I've seen about them in discussion I've had. Now, on to the lore!

The lesser rings of power were forged in Eregion as the great rings were, and were 'test runs' of the actual rings of power, mere 'essays in the craft' as Gandalf puts it. It is said they made 'many' of these rings, which could be anywhere from 20-100 reasonably, because there are 20 great rings of power. They had no jewel and it is unknown if they were inscribed with anything.

(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/9/99/Magic_Ring_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111207011839)

After Sauron forged the One, he began drawing these lesser rings to him, gathering them into his hands and his vaults. They would remain there till the War of the Last Alliance, where it is believed and speculated he gave them to his captains, so that they may stand and fight against the mighty Kings and Lords of the West in their noon hour. After Barad-Dur was thrown down, these rings were dispersed, some taken by the Free Peoples, others carried away by Sauron's servants, and others still were lost in the chaos.

Sauron would be able to recover a decent portion of the rings by the War of the Ring, but instead of dispersing them so readily to his captains, he kept them to himself to amplify his power in lieu of the One. However, it would not be impossible that some select leaders, such as the Mouth of Sauron, may posess one such lesser ring. Their fates are unknown after the War of the Ring, but it seems likely that they faded and were destroyed in Sauron's ruin.

Power wise, there are conflicted opinions about the specifics.They were, to an extent, like the One Ring when it came to temptation, enticing people to protect them and use them. They would give a being strength, long life, magical ability, and the power to dominate other wills, though to a far lesser extent then the Great Rings.

Many also believe that individual rings had a particular area in which they were strongest or unique, in addition to all the other abilities listed above. Some would grant invisibility (hence why Gandalf thought Bilbo had just an ordinary Magic Ring), others greater strength and speed, and still others would allow command of a single elemental force (one would control ice, another earth, etc.). However, this must be stated that this is just widely thought speculation, and it is neither affirmed nor denied in the books.

I hope you all enjoyed, and if there is anything I missed, please fill in the blanks!

VectorMaximus
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 18. Feb 2016, 14:20
Thanks for the topic, it was nice! :)
I didn't know there were that many lesser rings, but now that you said it it could totally be the reason behind the Lightbringers. After all, who cares if it is definitely canon or not, I believe what matters is not whether Tolkien mentioned it but rather one's interpretation of Tolkien's world.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: CragLord am 18. Feb 2016, 15:06
Nice topic. ;)
I always like those misteries in Tolkien world, one of them was about lesser rings.
I totally agree that lesser rings were able to boost its user with some magical powers, but again I am not in favour that lightbringer (with or without these lesser rings) be able to do bending of elements. Simply as you noted it is just speculation and mainly individual opinion that those lesser ring were able to grant power over elements. To be honest to me that idea sounds absurd. Greater rings had that power and their users were in position to use some control over elements (mainly in preserving way, supportive way), but lesser rings, let's try to be objective. I think if lesser rings were able to grant their users some power over elements, that power certanly won't be so great (so lightbringers could do that kind of elemental bending) as it is from great rings of power.
I am more in favor that idea about lesser rings could be used in case of lightbringers, but mainly in supporing purposes, some healing enchantment etc.

PS. Adrigabbro, I think that lot of dedicated users here care is it canon or not. Lore precise facts are guidelines, and they should be followed. I am totaly aware that we can't do that always, but again, this lightbringer case is something where we should be precise, I would like to play with cool elven benders, but no matter how much it is cool and epic, I now it is not canon and it is something which kills my gameplay experience and global picture of Tolkien world. Again this is my opinion.

Best regards,
CragLord 
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Feb 2016, 17:14
As you can see, I merged the previous thread about the Lesser Rings with our beloved and monumental Lore Corner  :)
I hope we will be able to create a broader debate about Magic as well; there already are valid contributions, here.

Regarding the Lesser Rings, I simply agree with Crag.
It's highly unlikely that they could grant such an impressive knowledge in bending the elements; I would rather think about minor magical features.
Not even Galadriel or Elrond could do it without 'certain conditions' (for example, being within their own millennial realm/environment to display extensive and destructive types of Magic).
Not all the Ainur as well could precisely do it.

We are talking about Earth, Fire, Air and Water, the founding components of Arda itself  8-)
I would say that the only Rings that were proven capable of maximising so much their bearer's power/control over Nature/World are the Three Rings and the One Ring.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 18. Feb 2016, 17:38
Zitat
We are talking about Earth, Fire, Air and Water, the founding components of Arda itself  8-)
Apart from that, even Narya doesn't enable Gandalf to throw fireballs left, right and center. As far as I know this refers mostly to inspiration and creating a fire inside one's heart to not give up hope. Yes, he eventually uses some fire magic, but only as Gandalf the Grey and not as his... well, ascended form as Gandalf the White. And since I highly doubt that there exists a "ranking" of power between the three elven rings, Elrond and Galadriel aren't able to do so. Of course both have control over their dominion (Elrond via the river, Galadriel e.g. by conjuring a mist to guard Eorls ride), but still: This is Tolkien's way of magic, you do not stand there bending elements (in the Avatar sense), instead you have a deep connection with the lands you live in, granting you certain abilities. (Which probably don't even originate from the Rings of Power, for people like Finrond Felagund could also use magic. And him being Galadriel's brother, I don't think the Lady of Light really has Nenya as some form of vessel, to channel a mighty rain of destruction.)
Therefore there is no way a lesser Ring of Power could grant such a devastating force -eventhough, I wouldn't totally give up the idea of a lesser ring being necessarily weaker in its direct effects on its bearer: E.g. the main power of the elven rings is keeping their dying realms still living over thousands of years. This is in a specific way much more impressive than just increase one's lifetime (effecting only the ringbearer) or making him invisible. It's an entire country we're talking about! ;)
Therefore I guess, the lesser rings do have certain powers, however I fancy them mainly as super powerfull toys, not like devices that (quote Galadriel) "was found the strength and will to govern each race". Yes, it's a movie quote, but it still holds. Yes, they are very valuable artifacts, but not more. The pure fact that not a single lesser ring is ever mentioned in the LotR (a story whose title strangely is about "rings" xD).

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Feb 2016, 18:22
Galadriel and Elrond do bend elements (obviously, not exactly like the unique way of Lightbringers) in a very extensive way.
There are a lot of hints about this fact; the most evident ones to be noticed are the manipulation of Weather, Time, the surrounding Space and the whole environment of their realm.
And, consider that we are talking about hundreds of years of constant protection.

I never really wrote that the Three Rings exactly give the ability of creating fireballs or whatsoever.
I just compared the way Galadriel and Elrond (of course, also mainly for their own innate capabilities) bend the World/Nature to the powers themselves of Lightbringers, that exactly consist of an impressive manipulation of Nature.
Also, when I referred to the elements, I was indeed referring to the elements of Arda themselves (natural aspects in their purest form); I was not specifically talking about the Three Rings, even though their very names and titles remind us of the components of Arda.

And, yes, I agree with you about Galadriel, her History, Nenya's characteristics and role in Galadriel's abilities and so on.
As you probably already saw, I think I left tons of posts about those matters in this precise section (so, yes, I have them in mind)  ;)
Posts that, I'm sorry, I don't really have the strength to write again from the beginning  :D
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 18. Feb 2016, 19:17
You didn't get my point.
Hell no I am not in favor of Airbender-like Lightbringers who can mess with the elements, neither of non canon stuff in general. However, more importantly than what is stricly canon, what ultimately matters is our own interpretation of Tolkien's world. Let's take the giants in The Hobbit book: there is quite a mystery around them and we don't know if they are stone, troll-like, humanoid giants or even real at all. Do you think Tolkien left the topic unclear because he didn't have time to expand on it? I don't think so. He did it on purpose so that everyone can interpret personally. Also, according stricly to Tolkien's writings, goblins and orcs are the exact same thing and yet I bet evryone here thinks of goblins as lesser orcs. Aren't Murin and Drar starting to feel about as canon as Gothmog or Ugluk after several years of Edain? And what about Lurtz? I'm pretty sure most people here feel like he is more canon than Ugluk.
Hopefully I made my point clear this time.  :P

Back to the Lightbringers, what I meant was that having support exclusive Lightbringers who would get their """magical""" aura with lesser rings was an idea I'm very comfortable with.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 21. Feb 2016, 19:13
I'm afraid it does contradict the lore though.
Celebrimbor was never aware of the One Ring until Sauron's revelation, nor did he ever contribute to its creation.
This vision is still contradictory, no matter which side we decide to look at it from  :)
Again, I don't want to persecute that game, but it's also true that it shouldn't theoretically be possible constructing solid lore considerations upon it.

Let me draw you a visual Val:
As I said before the game's story either builds upon the main timeline (green), or nestles in between the not further explained parts (blue). And that makes sense, since the Silmarillion ist written by the Elves, so they can't know every detail that might have happened (orange).
So: No contradictions. Just elegantly fitting into existing niches.



The lesser rings of power were forged in Eregion as the great rings were, and were 'test runs' of the actual rings of power, mere 'essays in the craft' as Gandalf puts it. It is said they made 'many' of these rings, which could be anywhere from 20-100 reasonably, because there are 20 great rings of power.

I think this number is highly debatable, even to the point that I would question the existence of unnamed lesser rings besides the Seven and Nine at all.

After the Fall of Eregion the Silmarillion says:
Zitat von:  The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will.
Of course you could argue that Sauron maybe did not hand out all the Rings that he gathered, but to me the quote sounds like he dealt out all the Rings he had.

But as you said, it sounds logical that the Elves probably would have made some test runs or prototype Rings at the side. And it fits to Gandalfs thoughts about Bilbos Ring as you mentioned.
Though in my mind these even lesser Rings with minuscule magical powers would have been much fewer than the normal lesser Rings.



On the account of what the Rings of Power (and Magic in general) were able to do in Middleearth, I'd like to remind you of the Flood at the Bruinen Ford. ^^


So yes, there definetly is the kind of bombastic fireworks physicsdefying magic in Tolkien that we know from general fantasy, though it rather amplifies the existing world instead of defying it. There is always much water in the River and its mountain spring, and a flood surely does occure from time to time. But Elrond has the power to command a flood at a specific moment. The magic lies in Elronds undeniable authority over his Valley.

Yet it is like Val mentioned a very specific power. Elronds does not have power over the element water, but over the Valley of Rivendell. He probably couldn't have called a flood in the Anduin for example.
So it is hard to extrapolate this magic in a more general way.



However, more importantly than what is stricly canon, what ultimately matters is our own interpretation of Tolkien's world.

I do agree with you on the point of being able to interpret and fill out the stories that we have (or don't have). But imho those interpretations still have to fit into the framework that Tolkien built his stories into.

And in there (as I quoted a while ago (http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30753.msg399202.html#msg399202)) the kind of magic that aggressively re-forms and dominates nature is undeniably evil.
So when elven magic (the good kind of magic) is described as being subtle, it means that their magic does not change the nature of things, but instead enhances or refines their natural abilities.
Like the Flooding of the Bruinen, which is in and of itself a perfectly fine thing to do for a river.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Feb 2016, 11:34
Let me draw you a visual Val:
As I said before the game's story either builds upon the main timeline (green), or nestles in between the not further explained parts (blue). And that makes sense, since the Silmarillion ist written by the Elves, so they can't know every detail that might have happened (orange).
So: No contradictions. Just elegantly fitting into existing niches.

Ok, I made a little further research on the topic, and, yes, the game's timeline would be legitimate in a very purely theoretical perspective.

But, as I previously wrote, what doesn't convince me at all is that clear disruption of that common law in the lore that we referred to.
Celebrimbor using the One Ring, and, at the top of all the things that I oppose, the fact that Celebrimbor was needed in order to 'perfect' the One Ring (the reasons are the ones I already mentioned, especially Sauron's complete knowledge of the Rings of Power's secrets, his conception of 'needing help' and the perfect essence of the One Ring once it was forged by his true Master).
Sorry, but I don't see so much elegance in dealing with these events, even though I respect the attempt the developers did  :)
In its sequel's trailer (I guess), Galadriel is shown making a true statement about the One Ring's true and ineluctable evil and dangerous nature.
Maybe, we will hear other wise words from her that will probably make me change idea a bit  ;)

I agree with everything you wrote about Magic.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Saruman der Bunte am 22. Feb 2016, 14:07
I agree with Adamin on magic. What I think is an intersting topic (when talking about the Rings of power) is wether it was a mistake by Sauron to forge the One Ring. His plan to dominate the Elven and Dwarven lords failed, all he got from the plan were 9 mighty servants. And it even enabled his enemies to seperate a big part of his power from him, and to destroy him. Now, the interesting thing is that Sauron was originaly even extremly powerful without the ring, before he lost his form (when Númenor was destroyed). If he had taken his Ring with him, I am sure that it would have been destroyed aswell. So it's continued existence saved him back then.

But of course, if Sauron had started to build up his military power right at the beginning of the 2nd age, he might have been able to conquer Middle-Earth before Númenor got so mighty.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Feb 2016, 17:19
I agree, at an extent.
Sauron's plan eventually failed, but it really failed once the One Ring was finally destroyed.
Until that moment, the purpose behind the One Ring had always revealed itself as something really ingenious!
As I always say, Sauron is just smart, definitely one of the most intelligent beings in Arda's history, and for this trait always feared by the Wise.

Sauron's purpose was not at all – apart from having the chance to control the Elves' and the other races' minds – achieving even more direct personal power, being himself already at the apex, as a Maia in Middle Earth with no restrain on his capabilities.
His true purpose was exactly tying his essence/Will/powers to a material dimension, so that he would have avoided the ineluctable dispersion of his powers had he been defeated by any means, especially in case he had had his own body destroyed (as it exactly happened in Númenor).

Therefore, we could say that he had kind of foreseen what could have happened and exactly happened later in Númenor; and, as you rightly wrote, he would have been killed anyway by the Wrath of Ilúvatar even with the One Ring on his finger, and thus hid it in Middle Earth to make it serve its exact purpose.

Yes, Sauron is just smart  xD
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 22. Feb 2016, 18:37
Zitat
Yes, Sauron is just smart  xD
Well... I'd say that to my knowledge no one in the entire history of Middle-Earth is smart, at least not the way anyone on planet Earth uses this noun.
He truely is deceptive and knows how to turn someones powers against him and he is smart in comparison to others. Then again I think that isn't saying much. ;)

Speaking about the One Ring, he had technically two purposes:
1. Being the Master Ring, able to enhance and to a certain degree control or at least incluence the other Rings. Even the Elven Rings were influenced by the One rendered eventually powerless when the One was destroyed. And I might be totally wrong about this, but I thought once Galadriel speaks about the fear of her "battle" with Sauron if he should achieve the One. Also the Eldar didn't use their Rings when Sauron had the one, did they? Therefore the Lord of the Rings has of course no effect on them or their works / realms, since he can only act via the Rings.
2. As a backup plan if anything else failed or a something like a "save-button" (;)) since he was able to lock away his powers inside the Ring, corrupt Numenor, survive its fall and then take back his Ring to once again hold his full power of will (meaning not his physical form since that was destroyed!).

Zitat
But of course, if Sauron had started to build up his military power right at the beginning of the 2nd age, he might have been able to conquer Middle-Earth before Númenor got so mighty.
Actually the reason why he did lose the Last Alliance war was his absense from Middle-Earth, meaning Gil-Galad could recover from the war in Eregion and gather a large enough army to defeat him together with Elendil's kingdoms. Therefore you are right, but the reason is even more specified in Tolkien's works!


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Feb 2016, 19:42
That word had a quite obvious less serious shade, to point out what I have already referred to in previous posts, but in a more informal way  ;)
Probably, ingenious, farsighted, prophetic, insidious and other akin words would recreate the 'Sauron momentum', if it's necessary  8-)

Exactly, those two main purposes.

Therefore, I think – as events manifested themselves – that the last 'backup plan' was eventually the most ingenious, which turned out to be actually the most useful characteristic for Sauron's own schemes.
Of course, the capability of mastering the other Rings was the core of the One Ring's creation, but, I believe, it was finally proven to be not so significant, at least in a very direct and pragmatic perspective.

I explain myself more clearly: the Elves hid almost immediately the Three Rings (the most longed ones by Sauron) and nonetheless organised a fierce opposition to Sauron.
After the Dark Lord's downfall at the slopes of Mount Doom, Galadriel and Elrond were finally able to use freely their Rings and establish the famous enchanted sanctuaries/realms that would have become legendary in the late Third Age and a Shield for the Free People against the Evil in the War of the Ring.
Probably, the most significant implication of the One Ring's mastering essence was finally unveiled when the same Ring was destroyed and consequently caused the other ones to have their powers vanished; resulting in a bitter outcome for the Elves (even though they had won the Evil), as the clear sign of their ineluctable decline in the grey and disenchanted Middle Earth.

While, and it's a big 'while', the 'backup' aspect allowed Sauron to escape a total defeat from the destruction of Númenor, and then, in a similar context, be able to survive in the World like a Shadow during most of the Third Age, to recollect his powers and launch the final assault against the Free People in the War of the Ring (and finally seek for the One Ring itself).

So, at last, which one of the two 'paid off' better, and theoretically resulted having a greater 'role' in the sorrows of many more souls of Arda?  :P
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 22. Feb 2016, 20:03
The Backup essence of the one paid off more, and brought more pain overall, I think. Because though the controlling aspect resulted in the failing of the Elven Rings, that woe befell only the Elves (dear though they are to me). On the other hand, Sauron returning in general was bad for everyone. Hence, the 'Horcrux' effect of the One was the attribute that was its greatest purpose in my eyes, moreso than the controlling.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 22. Feb 2016, 20:37
I think, we can all agree that, considering what historically happened, the backup-part was the more important one because otherwise Sauron would have just died permanently when Numenor fell.
However the Master Ring aspect is in my opinion massively more destructive: Just imagine an alternative timeline where the Last Alliance didn't defeat Sauron. The elves wouldn't be able to use their Rings (ever!), meaning Lothlorien just straight up ending as a wasteland or at the very least losing its enchantment. Also the Nine's powers would be multiplied and I have no idea if the dwarven greed had any limits with Sauron holding the One. And just imagine the elven leaders actually using their Rings: I always imagined the One Ring mainly as corrupting his users power and turning them against him, something it'd do with the other ringbearers, too, as long as they kept using their Rings (which isn't probably not so easy to stop!). Surely, Galadriel, Elrond, Gil-Galad, etc. are very strong-minded individuals, but so was Saruman. ;) It's totally possible that one of those couldn't resist embracing their Rings power even for their own destruction.

What I'm trying to say is basically: As the name already points out the "horcrux"-aspect was the inherent defensive of the One Ring, meaning it was historically more powerful since Sauron didn't hold the Ring for that long. However his offensive capabilities, him being the Master Ring, I don't want to know what destruction he could have caused if the war ended out drawn out!

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 22. Feb 2016, 21:09
If the Last Alliance failed, I don't think Sauron would need the One anymore. For never before on Mortal Lands had such a host been gathered, nor ever since, and if they were defeated no hope of Victory was there for the Free Peoples. And Sauron would have been master of all Arda, for the Valar alone could defeat him then, but never again shall their host enter the world changed and cross the sea ere the ending of the World. But I get your point.

If Sauron hadn't lost the one, and it became a protracted war across all of Middle-Earth, I agree that the controlling ability would have been greater. For as you said, the loss of the 3 would have been great indeed. While I still think Lorien and Imladris would have endured (they were both established in the Second Age, after all), they would have been greatly diminished and faded all the faster. I personally don't think any of the Elven leaders are dumb enough to actually use their rings if Sauron held the One. The 3 don't have an addictive effect, to my knowledge.

And yes, the Nazgul would have become more fell indeed, but I don't think the Dwarves could have had any worse fate from their rings then what they already had. Remember that the Dwarf-Lords already wore their rings when Sauron wore the One, for they could not perceive him through the rings. So, the greed they experienced already was the worst that could happen.

Just as a general question, do you believe the dwarves of Khazad-Dum when they claim that their ring was not given to them by Sauron, but by Celebrimbor in friendship? I personally doubt it.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Feb 2016, 22:50
Yes, what I wanted to stress is that very importance that the 'horcrux element' eventually had, even though Sauron's prominent desire was the control of each race via the Rings of Power.

That's why it was probably the most ingenious aspect, because it kind of worked as a life insurance for Sauron, as he had rightly guessed  ;)

As far as I know, all the Seven Rings were given to the Dwarf Lords by Sauron, once he regained them after having waged war against Eregion and Eriador.
So, either is it a lie or a wrong tale that kept on being told among Dwarves for centuries.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 23. Feb 2016, 01:02
Ok, I made a little further research on the topic, and, yes, the game's timeline would be legitimate in a very purely theoretical perspective.
I'll take what I can get. :D
Of course, there have to be certain compromise for an adaptation, and I can accept that you evaluate them differently.
On the other hand, I can finally kind of agree to your term of Saurons secret formula for Ringmaking. I haven't seen any clear evidence for this, until you guys reminded me that the Three Rings loose their Powers through the destruction of the One Ring. Since they haven't been made with Saurons involvement, their elemental mode of functioning still has to be connected to Sauron, otherwise their bond to Sauron (or his Ring) wouldn't make sense.



What I think is an intersting topic (when talking about the Rings of power) is wether it was a mistake by Sauron to forge the One Ring.
I wouldn't say mistake, but definetly a miscalculation on Saurons part. Putting a large part of his power into the Ring was a risk that he willingly took to master the Elves. Tolkien makes that clear, as I also quoted a while ago (http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30753.msg396721.html#msg396721).




Sauron's purpose was not at all – apart from having the chance to control the Elves' and the other races' minds – achieving even more direct personal power, being himself already at the apex, as a Maia in Middle Earth with no restrain on his capabilities.
His true purpose was exactly tying his essence/Will/powers to a material dimension, so that he would have avoided the ineluctable dispersion of his powers had he been defeated by any means, especially in case he had had his own body destroyed (as it exactly happened in Númenor).

Therefore, we could say that he had kind of foreseen what could have happened and exactly happened later in Númenor;
I'm really sorry Val, but I have to vehemently disagree with that.

There is no evidence whatsoever for Sauron conciously planning for the Ring to be his bond to the world, nor for him being particularly foresighted. His purpose for the Ring is very cleary stated in the Silmarillion:

Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
for his [Saurons] desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.
Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency;

Of course you can as always count in some elven bias or ignorance about their enemy, but since it matches Tolkiens prose description in the aformentioned letter, I'd say it is legit.
Sauron wanted to control the Elves, so he convinced them to make Rings of Power and secrectly forged a Master Ring that dominated them. But in order to do that, he had to insert a large part of his Power into the Ring. The Minds/Rings of the Elves were so powerful, that only a more powerful Mind/Ring could dominate them. The tying of his essence was a neccesity for Plan A to work, and I don't see anything that suggests he was already counting on Plan B at that moment. It was a risk that Sauron willingly took.

I would even go so far as to suspect that Sauron was himself somewhat positively surprised about this convenient side effect of his Ring. As you said it yourself: He's a Maia, an immortal spiritual being. Why should he ever decide to tie himself to the physical world, and thus restrain himself?

Saurons overall purpose or plan in Middle-earth is also stated in this chapter:

Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
Seeing the desolation of the world, Sauron said in his heart that the Valar, having overthrown Morgoth, had again forgotten Middle-earth; and his pride grew apace. He looked with hatred on the Eldar, and he feared the Men of Númenor who came back at whiles in their ships to the shores of Middle-earth; but for long he dissembled his mind and concealed the dark designs that he shaped in his heart.
After the Destruction of Beleriand Sauron stayed behind and resented the Valar for not actively doing more/anything in Middle-earth (contrary to, you know, Morgoth). So he grew prideful and made up his own designs for the world. In other words: He wanted to surpass the Valar and Morgoth by improving Middle-earth himself. Strictly according to his plans, under his strict lordship of course.
And here again we see Tolkiens motive of domination as an act of evil.



Yes, Sauron is just smart  xD
You know how hard it is to argue that? Because I don't really want to deny that in general. Of course Sauron was mighty, cunning, dangerous, cruel, subtle, crafty, and many other things. And after all, Sauron conquered more lands of Middle-earth than Morgoth ever tried.

But the way you portray him, as a forsighted mastermind, that played everyone from the beginning, is just... your headcanon, sorry.
Let's just think of the maaaany moments where Saurons plans didn't go the way he expected.

Like when he sat in Tol-in-Gauroth and thought:
"Well obviously I am the prophesied Wolf that will kill Huan the Hound!", and then got his butt kicked by Lúthien.
Or when he sat in Númenór and thought:
"Well finally I'll never have to worry about the Edain again, Haha!", and later sank while Elendil & Co. escaped.
Or during the War of the Ring when he thought:
"Well naturally they will try to use my Ring against me in war, they're even sending Halfling spies to scout my armies!", and we all know how that ended. ;)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Feb 2016, 02:08
Those quotations about the One Ring seem to be really explanatory and clear; what could the poor Val could add to such a direct source?  :P

Still, I have the feeling that we are in front of that kind of situation in which some clear statements regarding a specific subject can be significantly expanded (or changed a bit in their meaning) by not specifically told yet equally important common traits that we can often recollect here and there, having a general view of the portrait.
Given that I myself wrote that the core of Sauron's plan was achieving control of the other Rings, do those lines really exclude the other considerations I previously made?

Specifically, having in mind who is Sauron (history, race, powers, traits,...), and taking into consideration that he is definitely different from Morgoth by his personal usage of malice in much more subtle and deceiving ways, is it really plausible thinking that the Dark Lord was completely unaware of that peculiar aspect while he objectified his Will/essence, thus seeming to ignore the fundamental and deep characteristics involved in the relationship between spirit and physical body for the Ainur?
Personally, as I wrote above, I think that this 'horcrux aspect' served Sauron's plans and purpose so well to let it be defined solely by pure fortuity  :)

Speaking about Sauron's foresight, making a list of his own mistakes doesn't theoretically prove my theory wrong, I guess.
What I wanted to mean was that we can say that Sauron's schemes were eventually the most elaborate ones; meaning essentially that his webs reached almost everyone, one way or the other, with different degrees and with different outcomes (from the Great Cataclysm in the Second Age to the bitter fate of the Elves in seeing their wishes of endurance in Middle Earth by the action of the Three Rings frustrated and finally vanished by the end of the Third Age).
Also because I believe I could make a list of all the mistakes and wrong calculations of the Eldar, for example, beginning with the choice of the Exile, resulting in a new course (along with the known sorrows) for the future of Middle Earth and Arda itself; but I don't really want to disturb Ms. Thatcher again with another list of Nos  :D

I'm not really the greatest supporter of Sauron or Morgoth, as you know, but I have a deep respect for their role.
And, I always feel that remembering their status adds even further glory to their fiercest opponents: our beloved Eldar  8-)



At least, we agree about the secret formula, and it's definitely not a meaningless aspect  xD
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Fine am 23. Feb 2016, 08:24
On the topic of Sauron being smart, I'd like to take a look as Sauron as a war-leader or general.

I do not think Sauron is very good at leading armies and strategic planning.
Whilst he did successfully conquer and destroy Eregion, he allowed himself to be attacked in the rear by the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm and the Elves of Lórinand. Did it really not come to his mind that the Dwarves, who had a lasting friendship with the Noldor of Eregion, would come to their friend's aid? This surprise attack should not have been surprising at all, and it allowed Elrond's army to escape to Imladris.
Then, he pushed Gil-galad back to Lindon and once again was surprisingly attacked in the rear - twice - by the Númenoreans. Could he not foresee that Gil-galad would call upon the Dúnedain for aid? And while retreating, could he not simply have avoided rivers altogether? I wonder what he was thinking... "Surely, the next river will not be full of warboats and angry Dúnedain. There's no way they would to the same thing twice."
In the War of the Last Alliance, he failed to defeat Anárion in Gondor, even though the armies of Mordor, Harad and Rhûn combined vastly outnumbered the new Southern kingdom. I wonder what Sauron was doing while Gil-galad and Elendil were gathering their armies at Imladris (for three full years iirc) - fighting an unsuccessful trench war against Gondor? He didn't even bother to attack anyone else (as far as we know). Wouldn't, for example, Lothlórien have been a better target?
Speaking of the Golden Wood, in the War of the Ring, Sauron's armies attacked Lothlórien three times. Why? What was the plan here? Seeing the Galadhrim's defences as inpenetrable, Sauron should have used the forces he spent on the second and third attack elsewhere. Maybe he could have defeated Thranduil's Woodland Realm with the additional Orcs or could have launched a surprise attack against Rohan (if his army could avoid the Ents).
On the successful side, we have Sauron's conquest of Minas Tirith in the First Age, but that took a few years even after the crushing defeat the Noldor had suffered in the Dagor Bragollach.
His war against Gondor in the War of the Ring also started out quite successful with the conquest of Minas Ithil and Ithilien, but then he let himself be provoked into striking too soon by Aragorn who basically just said "Come at me bro" through the Palantír. Had Sauron instead used the time to amass all of the armies available in Mordor, Harad, Rhûn and Khand, I do believe that Gondor would have been soundly defeated.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Feb 2016, 10:57
I really appreciate the fact that you supported your thesis by making a list of a lot of situations which you think don't fit my definition  :)

But, as I previously wrote, I don't think that this is really the best approach to actually target my point.
No way does the definition I gave – being 'smart' – necessarily imply that Sauron had to win all of his battles and the War itself.
Otherwise, it would be pretty logically impossible making any qualitative statement about Sauron's role in the events he was involved into throughout the centuries, given that he saw his plans undone most of the times.
And, as I also wrote in my previous comment, I think we could do the same exact thing by listing all the critical mistakes the Eldar made since the First Age, or, specifically, the ones the realms of the Free People committed during the War of the Ring and before (and there are many).
Or, what about the White Council, for example, and its appeasing attitude towards the return of Sauron in Mirkwood? Does this perhaps mean that the Wise can't be considered farsighted?

My point is focused primarily on the undeniable fact that, as we know very well, Sauron is the primary actor during the War of the Ring and its previous preparation throughout the whole Third Age.
He caught quite unexpectedly all the Free People engaged in the War, forced everyone on the defensive side until the very last moment, gathered legions of the most diverse troops and coordinated them basically unto the most remote places of Middle Earth.

Therefore, the point is not really if he eventually succeeded in all his propositions, but rather the meaning itself of his whole prominent activity (initially very silent as he lurked in the shadows to prepare his return, then very impetuous as he challenged the Free People in the ultimate war).
And the fact that the War of the Ring was the ultimate war by definition (with really not so many alternatives or plans B for each side in case of a defeat) reflects, I believe, how Sauron had constantly been building up the momentum and scheming almost every aspect of his strategy.
Sauron is undeniably the Keystone of the War of the Ring, and, at a greater extent, of all the course of events since the day Celebrimbor and the other Elven smiths regretted having unintentionally served Sauron's purposes.
Or, even better, we should wonder who really was behind (by his direct or indirect actions) the coming of the Númenóreans in Middle Earth to barrage the dominion of the Evil in the World, and behind the downfall of Númenor, the most powerful kingdom of Arda at that time, and the consequent cataclysm that shocked and changed the World itself forever...

Especially, I'm always impressed how the forging of the Rings of Power (Sauron's plan) shaped all the fortunes and misfortunes of Middle Earth until Sauron's very last moment in the Third Age.
The fact that the Rings of Power eventually remained the unaltered gravitational centre of the Second Age and all the Third Age is probably the most evident proof we have.
Basically, everything seems often to gravitate around Sauron, for the good and the evil.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Saruman der Bunte am 23. Feb 2016, 14:17
Ok. I don't think that Sauron intended the Ring as a back-up plan. He was far to arrogant to even think that his body (without Ring) would be destroyed. The risk was also originally smaller as he had much more power on his own back then.

About Sauron being 'smart': I always thought Saurons greatest accomplishment to be his succesful rise back to power in the 3rd age, and how close he got to victory. He sat in Dol-Guldur for a long time, getting stronger and weakening his enemies with the plague and the wain-riders. If Gandalf's plan hadn't suceeded and destroyed Smaug and lots of Orcs (wich was mostly luck), Sauron would have teamed-up with Smaug (and maybe the Orcs of the Misty Mountains), destroyed Rivendell and Thranduil's realm and conquered Rhovanion, Angmar and maybe even all of Eriador before he went to war with Gondor.

Yet after that he succesfully set himself up in Mordor, manipulated Saruman and Denethor and soon took back Dol-Guldur and certainly had the military high ground in the War of the Ring. But still: if there hadn't been as strong a north as at the end of the Hobbit, the free people wouldn't have had much of a chance against Sauron.

@Fine: Well, Sauron was great at controlling the larger strategic movements but not so great at acting the right way in specific crucial situations aswell as sometimes not noticing potential dangers.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 23. Feb 2016, 20:13
@Saruman der Bunte:
Aaah, I like that quote. ^^
I was kinda miffed when Angmar was added into the Hobbit movie, because I didn't know that it was actually named as part of Saurons plan in the Appendix.

Plus , he would have also attacked Lothlórien with the Dragon, as Gandalf says here:
Zitat von: Unfinished Tales: III The Quest for Erebor
"I thought then, and I am sure now, that to attack Lórien and Rivendell, as soon as he was strong enough was his original plan. It would have been a much better plan for him, and much worse for us."

@Fine:
I suppose that is the reason why Sauron ground up his forces against Lórien. Taking out Galadriel early might have made the rest of his plans easier.

Totally unrelated to that:
Aragorn who basically just said "Come at me bro"
xD xD xD



Returning to an earlier question:
What would have been Sauron's course of action had he regained the ring? (let's say Gollum danced around a little bit more and Frodo tripped into the lava meaning the Nazguls made it back in time to Mount. Doom to cease the ring)

Hard to say, though definetly a good question. I suppose for one he would have returned to his original plan and attacked the Elves. With the One Ring returned Elrond and Galadriel would have had to stop using their Rings, thus Rivendell and Lórien would have lost much of their defenses.
Concerning Men I think it's plausible to expect something along the terms that the Mouth of Sauron brought up:

Zitat von: The Return of the King, The Black Gate Opens
"The rabble of Gondor and its deluded allies shall withdraw at once beyond the Anduin, first taking oaths never again to assail Sauron the Great in arms, open or secret. All lands east of the Anduin shall be Sauron's for ever, solely. West of the Anduin as far as the Misty Mountains and the Gap of Rohan shall be tributary to Mordor, and men there shall bear no weapons, but shall have leave to govern their own affairs. But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust."
Looking in the Messenger’s eyes they read his thought. He was to be that lieutenant, and gather all that remained of the West under his sway; he would be their tyrant and they his slaves.

So, after a quick retaliation against Gondor for the attack on the Black Gate, Sauron would have occupied everything east of the Anduin and make everything else to the Misty Mountains his tributaries, with the Mouth of Sauron as his Steward in Isengard.

Though I suppose he wouldn't stop there. I could imagine Sauron destroying the Grey Havens just out of spite, though that is just my speculation (and probably inspired by the BfMe2 Campaign).



Just as a general question, do you believe the dwarves of Khazad-Dum when they claim that their ring was not given to them by Sauron, but by Celebrimbor in friendship? I personally doubt it.
As far as I remember, there were different quotes on that, some saying they got the ring from the elves, others that Sauron gave it to them. Though I don't remember exactly which position comes from which book.

The question ist though, does it make a difference? If they got the ring from Celebrimbor, then it was maybe a token of friendship between them. If it was Sauron, then he was probably still capable of using his fair form.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Feb 2016, 12:36
Speaking of the Golden Wood, in the War of the Ring, Sauron's armies attacked Lothlórien three times. Why? What was the plan here? Seeing the Galadhrim's defences as inpenetrable, Sauron should have used the forces he spent on the second and third attack elsewhere. Maybe he could have defeated Thranduil's Woodland Realm with the additional Orcs or could have launched a surprise attack against Rohan (if his army could avoid the Ents).

This part of Fine's comment – regarding Sauron's strategic capabilities – caught my attention, and it raised a bit a doubt that I often though about, approaching to Lothlórien.

First of all, answering the comment itself, Sauron didn't know at all that in the Golden Wood was hidden one of the Three, nor did he exactly know that Nenya provided to Lothlórien an inviolable coverage given the specific properties of the Ring of Water.
This was a very well-kept secret even among the mightiest Eldar.

Here it is the precise reference in the lore.
They are Galadriel's exact words  :)

Zitat
Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.
‘Yes,’ she said, divining his thought, ‘it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lórien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.
‘He suspects, but he does not know – not yet.
J.R.R. Tolkien – The Fellowship of the Ring, The Mirror of Galadriel

Sauron obviously suspects the involvement of a mysterious factor in Lórien's sacred integrity, even though he doesn't know anything.
Therefore, the question is: is it really reasonable that he had not already realised and guessed that Galadriel was the guardian of one of Three Rings, having knowledge about the very existence of those Rings and, especially, knowing that Galadriel was the mightiest Elf in Middle Earth in the Third Age?

Would it be so contradictory or disruptive if Sauron just knew the plain truth about Vilya, Nenya and the connection between these Rings and the places where they are kept?
The Dark Lord could never win those realms anyway, without the One Ring.
I believe it would be much more interesting if the secret of Nenya were something known yet tremendously feared by the Enemy.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 24. Feb 2016, 23:54
Well yeah, I'd definetly say that the identity of the Three Rings owners was an open secret in Middle-earth, at least for two of them.

So there are these two elven retreats, who seemed to be untouched by the fading and well hidden/protected, with two of the mightiest Elves of old as their leaders... What a coincidence!

I think Sauron must've puzzled that one out. ^^
Maybe noone exactly knew it from Elrond or Galadriel, but if you know what to look for, it's pretty damn obvious.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Feb 2016, 01:02
Exactly!
But, you know, Sauron is a genuine curious guy  xD

Zitat
I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!’
J.R.R. Tolkien – The Fellowship of the Ring, The Mirror of Galadriel
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Linhir am 27. Feb 2016, 00:17
Hey guys. I had this thought today... what about werewolves in third age? And what it means for Edain? As far as i know, gandalf mentions them once when talking with Frodo. And there was other time when he generalized and used word "beasts".

Also when Theoden was talking about returning to Edoras, he mentions that it was propably taken by werewolves or something like that.

So, according to that, we can speculate that these beasts was still present during third age, and considering where's Edoras... maybe they will be included into MM faction somehow?

Yes Walk, i know that it's not mod dedicated section, but i don't want to make standalone thread just for my considering about this matter, and i think that it can be foundations for just one more discussion about lore. ;)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Feb 2016, 00:47
Yes Walk, i know that it's not mod dedicated section, but i don't want to make standalone thread just for my considering about this matter, and i think that it can be foundations for just one more discussion about lore. ;)

Why did you address me specifically?  :P
If you are interested in lore points, this is exactly the suitable place, as you wrote in your own comment; you can forward possible related gameplay considerations of yours in the appropriate threads that belong to the Edain realm  ;)

Well, the real dreadful Werewolves that we have account of are essentially the hideous creatures that Morgoth, and Sauron in particular, created (probably via the corruption of unknown already-existing animals, as the Evil always corrupts and never creates from nothing), gathered and let loose in the darkest regions of Beleriand during the First Age.
Sauron himself was accounted to be their Lord, with even the ability of shape shifting in one of their kind.

Regardless of Sauron's immense power, the most powerful and terrible Werewolf is told to be Carcharoth, personally bred by Morgoth and fierce enemy of our Beren and Lúthien.
It is very likely that immense packs of these creatures were massively used in the War of Wrath against the Host of Valinor, along with every other kind of foul monsters that the Evil managed to summon.
Therefore, this leads us to think that the Werewolves were almost totally exterminated by the end of the First Age, and that their weaker descendants endure as solitary threats in wild lands; unless, obviously, they were bred and used with precise purposes and with evil intentions, as it exactly happened during the War of the Ring or other great conflicts.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Linhir am 27. Feb 2016, 01:08
Because i know that you like move posts from one threads to another, when there's any reference to other matter than thread.  :D

But, returning to the subjects. You only rewritten dry facts that are known, lets use brains for a moment.  xD
Do you think that was actual any attack of these beasts around Edoras? And when Eomer returned with his man, there was a battle? Or it was just a hunt for few individuals? How many could there be? It's new race bred by Sauron in third age to grow fear in hearts of enemies? Or it's leftovers from the first age? In our pop culture werewolves are immortal, are Tolkien's beasts immortal too?

Just speak your opinion, not only well known facts.  xD
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Feb 2016, 01:34
Because i know that you like move posts from one threads to another, when there's any reference to other matter than thread.  :D

You know, it's just one of the duties of Moderators  :D

You only rewritten dry facts that are known, lets use brains for a moment.  xD
Do you think that was actual any attack of these beasts around Edoras? And when Eomer returned with his man, there was a battle? Or it was just a hunt for few individuals? How many could there be? It's new race bred by Sauron in third age to grow fear in hearts of enemies? Or it's leftovers from the first age? In our pop culture werewolves are immortal, are Tolkien's beasts immortal too?

Just speak your opinion, not only well known facts.  xD

Well, if you read again my comment, you might discover that I tried too to wander throughout the very few known facts that we have from the direct source, making hypotheses based on reasonable elements.
That operation of mine is exactly called speculation, something that is very common and thoroughly needed in this lore space, as you can see  ;)

The questions you are trying to answer about the Werewolves in the Third Age can't thus be answered completely.
My previous statement related to the very Third Age/War of the Ring, though, may infer that most of what you want to prove as possible could be indeed legitimate.
So, if Sauron or Saruman or other evil souls ever used them in battle, they must have 'just' bred the offspring of the original creatures; and, no, I don't really think they are immortal, given that the Silmarillion gives us references regarding the Werewolves' vital cycle and that immortality is definitely an iconic prerogative of the Ainur and the Elves.

If you are not acquainted with it yet, reading deeply in one's own words is what we, lore guys, do for a living  xD
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Linhir am 27. Feb 2016, 09:27
It is very likely that immense packs of these creatures were massively used in the War of Wrath against the Host of Valinor, along with every other kind of foul monsters that the Evil managed to summon.
Therefore, this leads us to think that the Werewolves were almost totally exterminated by the end of the First Age, and that their weaker descendants endure as solitary threats in wild lands; unless, obviously, they were bred and used with precise purposes and with evil intentions, as it exactly happened during the War of the Ring or other great conflicts.

Yes, you were speculating. But, with much generalising. Let's take step further!

I think that i missed this all vital cycle in Silmarillion. I'll check it out later. But for now, I think that they are immortal. They don't getting older, and can't die of natural causes, but they can be slaughtered! (Just like dragons or balrogs.)
And I think that most of them was killed during battles of War of Wrath, and then during Sinking of Beleriand. But yet, some of them might survive these events, and wandered east, to Dunland or even Mirkwood. There, they lived and reproduced for many, many years, but theirs brood wasn't able to oppose death, so they outlived them (what was keeping their numbers low).
Propably during second age, they took part in war of the last alliance, by Sauron's side, and again, they were decimated.
And when Saruman gained alliegance of Dunlendings and sent them to attack rohan villages, werewolves were amongst them with it's brood.

Part of brood was propably killed during small skimrishes, and rest, along with part of original beasts of Morgoth, when Eomer came back as King.

So... still, few of them might survived (no more than 10, I think).

That's my theory about this race. I think that's consistent with Tolkien's lore, and could be used for Edain purposes. ;)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 28. Feb 2016, 00:16
That's my theory about this race. I think that's consistent with Tolkien's lore, [...]

Well, no, because nothing in your theory is based on the lore.  [ugly]
But you wanna use brains, yes? Okay then.

Zitat von: The Fellowship of the Ring, Many Meetings
[Gandalf:]"[...] Not all his [Saurons] servants and chattels are wraiths! There are orcs and trolls, there are wargs and werewolves; and there have been and still are many Men, [...]"

This is the only mentioning of Werewolves in the Lord of the Rings. They are never mentioned in combination with Rohan or Edoras ever. And since it is Gandalf mentioning him, we can't really be sure if he's refering to Werewolves being Saurons recent servants, or if he's just refering to Saurons history with Werewolves way back in the First Age.

Their mortality is by the way not mentioned in the Silmarillion; at least I haven't found anything about that. Generally I'm not really sure how to answer this though, because:

Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of Beren and Lúthien
Therefore an army was sent against him under the command of Sauron; and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies.

Werewolves in Tolkiens world are not defined by being shapeshifters (that only Sauron did), but by being possessed wolves. They are animals with an evil spirit forced into them, thus giving them more malice and probably more strength.
So I think it's hard to speculate on their lifespan. What kind of spirit was used by Sauron (a lesser Maiar, or just an Orc spirit)? How exactly did the spirit affect the wolves body?

My best guess would be that while the spirit is probably immortal, the wolves body is most likely not. ^^
So I think a Werewolf in Arda would eventually die.


But, there is still some hope for your Third Age Werewolves. They might actually be Wargs. xD

Zitat von: The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 297 Drafts for a letter to 'Mr Rang'
The word Warg used in The Hobbit and the L.R. for an evil breed of (demonic) wolves [...] the noun common to the Northmen of these creatures.

What exactly is a demonic wolf? It might simply be a wolf that is possessed by a demon, or evil spirit. ;)
So it might actually be that there is not that much of a difference between Wargs and Werewolves. As the above quote states, Warg is just the name that the Northmen of Rhovannion gave these creatures.

And I think it is kind of elegant to think of it that way. It would mean that there still is a similiar creature to werewolves in the later Middle-earth, but their name evolved due to the modern inhabitants
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Feb 2016, 01:05
I agree with Adamin about the Werewolves' nature and regarding the Wargs as possible weaker remnants of a once terrible kind.
Furthermore, I would like to add another reference of the Silmarillion that refers specifically to Carcharoth  :)

Zitat
There dismay took them, for at the gate was a guard of whom no tidings had yet gone forth. Rumour of he knew not what designs abroad among the princes of the Elves had come to Morgoth, and ever down the aisles of the forest was heard the baying of Huan, the great hound of war, whom long ago the Valar unleashed. Then Morgoth recalled the doom of Huan, and he chose one from among the whelps of the race of Draugluin; and he fed him with his own hand upon living flesh, and put his power upon him. Swiftly the wolf grew, until he could creep into no den, but lay huge and hungry before the feet of Morgoth. There the fire and anguish of hell entered into him, and he became filled with a devouring spirit, tormented, terrible, and strong. Carcharoth, the Red Maw, he is named in the tales of those days, and Anfauglir, the Jaws of Thirst. And Morgoth set him to lie unsleeping before the doors of Angband, lest Huan come.
J.R.R. Tolkien – The Silmarillion, Of Beren and Lúthien

So, we can clearly assume that those 'evil spirits' that are mentioned in the other quotations can also be legitimately seen as the direct evil influence of Sauron or Morgoth that endow wolves (or other foul creatures) with power, turning them into the real Werewolves we read about.
Morgoth follows that exact operation, breeding and shaping what would have been the most dreadful among them.
The main recurrent theme, thus, is the needed presence of a mighty evil being that plays the part of the primary agent in the creation of the said creatures.

I again reaffirm my disapproval about their immortality.
This characteristic is iconically something that belongs to the Ainur and the Eldar.
Corrupted creatures – now we have the clear reference to their corruption – are highly unlikely to be defined by an immortal body and spirit.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Linhir am 28. Feb 2016, 12:16
Well it seems that only in polish translation of trilogy, werewolves were mentioned in context of propably raiding Edoras.  ;)

And I never called them shapeshifters. I know that it's only "Big Bad Wolves".  [ugly]
But, i don't think that they are related to wargs, it's just different races.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 28. Feb 2016, 22:44
I'm interested to hear thoughts on this; when do you think the Numenoreans became unsaveable? I personally feel like if Tar-Miriel was allowed to be Ruling Queen the Faithful party could have become more secure and better entrenched, after 2 successive reigns that would have allied with them.

Yet even Ar-Pharazon was a close friend of Elendil's when they were young. Prideful, distrustful of the Valar and the Elves, yes, but not evil. Its only when Sauron is brought to Numenor does it seem unsalvageable, like the Downfall is doomed to happen. And personally, his actions in the Downfall of Numenor was his greatest act of Evil, even over the forging of the One.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Feb 2016, 23:40
I agree with you.
The role Sauron had in the Downfall of the most powerful kingdom of Arda at that time (the Undying Lands excluded) was probably his most evil act yet planned with an extreme and malicious intelligence.

Once Númenórë sank into the Sea, the World was upset, broken and reshaped into a sphere.
Moreover, the Immortal Lands were separated from the outer World, and so would have they remained until the End of Time.

If I really have to choose a precise moment, I would say that the definitive turning point was the war waged against Valinor itself, begun with the preparation of the legendary mighty fleet of the proud Human King.
The idea itself of waging war against the Blessed Realm is probably the worst crime ever conceived; a clear action against the order of the Universe.

As I already wrote in this section, I think that the storm and all the eagle-like threatening black clouds, that Manwë sent as a warning in the preceding days of the final military campaign, exactly represent all the Valar's King's wrath.
But, given his purely good heart, I'm sure that Manwë felt also really betrayed, disappointed and sincerely regretful, foreseeing what would have happened to the Númenóreans.

Zitat
Then the Eagles of the Lords of the West came up out of the dayfall, and they were arrayed as for battle, advancing in a line the end of which diminished beyond sight; and as they came their wings spread ever wider, grasping the sky. But the West burned red behind them, and they glowed beneath, as though they were lit with a flame of great anger, so that all Númenor was illumined as with a smouldering fire; and men looked upon the faces of their fellows, and it seemed to them that they were red with wrath.
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion, Akallabêth

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VMw3LadByGI/U5f3Ku-OioI/AAAAAAAAC3E/d6qgzm_8rEU/s1600/ted+nasmith_the+silmarillion_3_akallabeth_the+downfall+of+numenor3_the+eagles+of+manwe.jpg)

But still, in their wrath, the Valar didn't really want to confront directly and personally destroy the human beings (direct creations of Eru) that dared to attack them; nor would they ever wanted to bring ruin in the heart of Valinor even with victory at hand, considering the power unleashed by Ar-Pharazôn.
When they called for the intervention of Ilúvatar, they also laid down their authority in Arda and waited for the final judgement.

Zitat
Then Manwë upon the Mountain called upon Ilúvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda.
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion, Akallabêth

Do you see some traces of Mercy and deep Love in the Valar's act, given also that they later prayed for the sake of the Faithful?  :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 29. Feb 2016, 00:30
I do see mercy. I believe that Illuvater or the Valar (not sure which) sent the Faithful Exiles to Lindon, where they would be received honorably and kindly. They could have landed in Umbar, which was dominated by the King's Men, and been destroyed.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 29. Feb 2016, 00:38
I always see Mercy whenever I think that the Valar could have personally vanquished and killed the Númenóreans, even in the most cruel ways, having all the authority and reasons to do that.

It seems that respecting and caring for the Children of Ilúvatar's free arbitrary thinking and life has always been a boundary that the Lords of the West imposed on themselves (except very exceptional cases, at least, but not this precise exceptional threat).

That's why they avoid a direct involvement and remit their legitimacy to govern Arda in Ilúvatar's hands.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 6. Mär 2016, 21:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGdp5_12zW0
About this scene. If the WK hadn't been distracted by the Rohirrim would he have actually killed Gandalf? It seems possible since we see (read) about Wormtongue killing Saruman but Saruman was taken by surprise. Would Gandalf have revealed the full extent of his power or would he have been killed? Would that have changed much to the story? Apart from the whole lost moral for the troops?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 6. Mär 2016, 21:25
Firstly, we have to consider that we are talking about the trilogy's lore, and I never particularly liked that scene.
It's not lore accurate, in my opinion.

Beside that, Gandalf did have a brief encounter with the Witch King during the siege of Minas Tirith.
The two, though, don't have the time to directly challenge each other as Rohan horns are suddenly and widely heard throughout the battlefield.

Zitat
In rode the Lord of the Nazguˆl. A great black shape against
the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of
despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazguˆl, under the archway
that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his
face.
All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space
before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax
who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the
terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dı´nen.
‘You cannot enter here,’ said Gandalf, and the huge
shadow halted. ‘Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go
back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your
Master. Go!’
The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had
a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The
red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and
dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.
‘Old fool!’ he said. ‘Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not
know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!’
And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down
the blade.
Gandalf did not move. And in that very moment, away
behind in some courtyard of the City, a cock crowed. Shrill
and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war,
welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the
shadows of death was coming with the dawn.
And as if in answer there came from far away another note.
Horns, horns, horns. In dark Mindolluin’s sides they dimly
echoed. Great horns of the North wildly blowing. Rohan had
come at last.
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Return of the King, The Siege of Gondor

It's an interesting speculation that can be made.
Nevertheless, I believe the Lord of the Ringwraiths could have never subdued the will and powers of the chief of the Istari, more Maia-like than ever after his 'rebirth' in the World  :)

Saruman had lost most of his powers when he got killed, both in the books and in ROTK.
He was basically harmless, if not for his insidious speech.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 6. Mär 2016, 21:33
Val is probably preparing another praising of the Vala. xD
edit: Okay I was wrong. Sorry about that, Val... ;)

Well, Gandalf was nerfed a lot in the movies. In the books he seemed much more self-assured and powerful. There he approached the Witchking eye to eye, and they both threatend each other into a Wild West Style stand-off.

So they both appeared very competent in that situation. Gandalf is a mighty wizard and Maiar of course, but the Witchking is described as drawing power out of the terror and fear around him. And during the siege of Minas Tirith the whole city was full of terror.
I think it's hard to say who would have won.

In the movie Version though I think it's plausible that the Witchking might have killed Gandalf. And since the Attack on the Black Gate was Aragorns idea there (was it in the books?), it probably wouldn't have changed that much. Frodo and Sam would have died on the slopes of Mount Doom though...
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 6. Mär 2016, 21:59
Val is probably preparing another praising of the Vala. xD

Actually, I hesitated a bit on that Maia-like because I wanted to give more details and arguments to back that sentence; but, I eventually desisted.
Lucky you, then  :D

I won't be so merciful in the future  xD
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 6. Mär 2016, 22:54
I probably should have provided quotes to back my claim of the Witchkings power (at least I'm pretty sure that I had read about it), but unfortunately I don't have my sources with me right now... ^^
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 7. Mär 2016, 00:18
First of all, it's of course correct that this scene is only present in the movies, so we don't really know what would have happenend. What we however practically know for sure, is that an Istari can't just leave his mortal form and become a full Ainur once more, just 'cause he pleases to do so. There are too many cases where this might have been extremely convenient -apart from that, even a weak Ainur can be killed by physical beings, see Balrogs -those are definitely not concealed like an Istari (quite the contrary to be precise). At least Saruman would probably directly abandon his mortal form the moment he decided to swap to the Dark Side (of the Force -sorry, I couldn't resist :D), the fact he didn't, tells us, this is not just a voluntary restriction of their powers, but a permanent change, at least before a possible return to Aman.

Also, DieWalküre, please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you overestimate certain characters. ;) I'd like to remind everyone that an Istari is very much vulnerable -Saruman obviously was stabbed (movie) / cut through the throat (books), however even Gandalf was at least hurt once: After the BotFA, Bilbo encounters a Gandalf whose one arm is bandaged. And since they were only orcs present (and most likely not the big uruks of Mordor, but more of the small snaga orcs), an Istari can be harmed very much. (Apart from that, Gandalf was described to not participating directly in the fighting for the most time.)

Zitat
I probably should have provided quotes to back my claim of the Witchkings power (at least I'm pretty sure that I had read about it), but unfortunately I don't have my sources with me right now... ^^
You are mistaken, my dear Adamin, since I'm still here. ;) Apart from the obvious displays of magical powers (breaking Frodo's sword at the Fords of Bruinen, enhancing Grond / weakening the gate), his terrific presence when acting as the revealed Dark Marshall (or whatever his title is in english) which makes it practically impossible for weak (and even many mediocre strong) minded to face him, Denethor remarks that the Witchking is finally someone equal to the White Rider. Gandalf does not deny this statement, also after Gandalf scared away the Nazgûl attacking Faramir it is written, that the Dark Marshall hadn't arrived yet to oppose this new foe. So while I agree BTW that the battle is won a little to easily by the Witchking in the movie (still better, then undead-drowned Galadriel in an over the top videogame-mind-battle against Sauron...), the two are certainly equal.

To sum up my thoughts about the scene and its possible outcome: I think there is no real denying that an Istari can be destroyed. I'm not sure, if this destroys his spirit or just the old man, meaning he could potentially still continue his existence in the undying lands (or given yet another chance, since after a potential fall of Gandalf the White, the good people of Middle Earth would be without a leader, which might be a reason for him returning in the first place, since the order of the Istari was basically done for after Gandalf died versus the Balrog and Saruman... well, I'm stating the obvious for him^^).


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Edit: Concerning this paragraph
Zitat
So they both appeared very competent in that situation. Gandalf is a mighty wizard and Maiar of course, but the Witchking is described as drawing power out of the terror and fear around him. And during the siege of Minas Tirith the whole city was full of terror.
I have to object to some points: First and most importantly, Gandalf is of course technically a Maiar, but (even as Gandalf the White) still restricted. Yes, some of his powers are revealed once in a while, but it's still nothing like a full Maia with the ability to shapeshift. Therefore I would everytimes speak only of Istari if it comes to these wizards and basically use this "power-category" as a third, next to Valar and Maiar, which is further authorized by the huge emphasis in the LotR.
Secondly, I'd like to see a quote for this "feeding on fear"-process, since I believe it to be basically the other way around: Not the Witchking is getting stronger, the more fear there is, but the more direct Mordor's first in command is using his powers (not so much his magic, but his general presence) the more fear he calls forth. It is of course very important, how when he is acting: During the gate-scene when the two met, he is basically at the top of his power, all of Mordor's troops standing under his command with the clouds taking away any light -I think, the Nazgûl's fear-presence is basically amplified to closer they are to the grip of Mordor, which sounds awefully poetic, but a) this is the way the books are written, so deal with it, and b) if you consider, that Mordor (in the form of its full military power) is basically holding a terrified Minas Tirith in its grip, it gets a lot less poetic.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Mär 2016, 01:32
Melkor, I absolutely agree with you that the restrictions placed upon the Istari are a real physical modification (diminished powers, authority and sealed memory), ordered by the Valar and enforced regardless of the Wizards' will.
And, I know pretty well the difference between being an Istar and being an Ainu, as this is probably what you were referring to.

Therefore, I don't really think my statement was overestimating anyone.
I know for sure that the Istari are vulnerable too, and I accept the reference to Gandalf in the Battle of the Five Armies.
But, that is Gandalf the Grey; I was talking about Gandalf the White  :)

I exactly drew a distinction by stressing the fact that Gandalf the White 'came in the World' again much more Maia-like than ever, albeit still not reaching, obviously, the level of a full-empowered Ainu.
I wrote that the Witch King could have thus never subdued Gandalf the way he did in the film, and not that Gandalf would have necessarily won.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 7. Mär 2016, 02:05
Hmpf, I have to admit, that my grammar in Tolkien's world isn't always perfect. Eventhough I felt strange about "Istari" and "Ainur", because I later this evening used the term in singular and realised it was the same, which I found weird. (For proof, that I'm not making this up to safe myself: http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,28706.msg430790.html#msg430790 :D).

And I realised of course you were referring to Gandalf the White. It is in my opinion a totally valid point of yours that this Gandalf is more "angelic" (even in a physical way, since he seems to be less of a physical burden for Gwaihir). However, I still stand by my point that even such a distant being can be killed or at least released from his existence in Middle Earth. The classical Gandalf the White scenes are (if I'm not mistaken) mostly scenes, when he uses the inherent light of his character, therefore he is literally the opposite of the Witchking, since a revealed Gandalf is a beacon of hope for the free people of Middle Earth and kind of their defender when all else fails (curing of Theoden, his defense of Minas Tirith), while the revealed Witchking is a being of despair and shadow.
Actually this is much clearer in the books, since most people call the Lord of the Nazgûl the Witchking, a title which is practically never used in the books, where he is mostly just "The Black Rider" (if this is not the case for other versions, I'd be glad to hear that ;)). There is a certain symmetry between the White and the Black Rider, therefore it would be just and fair if both of them are in the same category of power -something they apparently are!

Now, I'm afraid, I'm not really pointing out things we disagree about. IMO, the main reason, why the Witchking should have never killed Gandalf in the books is exactly this symmetry, since they are sort of the opposite side of a single coin, so to speak, eventhough probably only in the ways mentioned above.
However this symmetry is basically not there in the movies (which I don't really mind, since it's more of a purist thing, I'm glad to abandon for a cinematic masterpiece where things like that would be overkill and disturb the action), so considering the movie scene: Gandalf should have been dead.
However, because of this symmetry argument, I'd agree with you, that the Witchking couldn't kill Gandalf. I'd add in fact that this counts vice versa, too, mainly for storytelling arguments!


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 7. Mär 2016, 09:13
Ooooh, someone was just waiting to jump onto this Topic! :D

Yes I know, Olorin the Maia is not the same as Gandalf the Wizard in terms of power. It's just a nice little shorthand to describe that Gandalf the White was kinda a big deal. ;)

Zitat
I'm not sure, if this destroys his spirit or just the old man
I'm pretty sure it would just destroy his physical body. As you yourself refered to Sarumans death, there it is described that his body fell apart, but there was something rising up from it and getting blown away (rejected) from the West.

As I said, I don't have my LotR sources with me atm, so I can't look it up. But I will try to find it as soon as I can. I think it was a small Paragraph about the Black Captain prior to his arrival at Minas Tirith in Return of the King. If someone else finds it, go ahead and post it. ^^
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Mär 2016, 10:29
That's what I wanted to say, Melkor; Gandalf could have indeed stood firm and tried to fend off the Witch King with honour, regardless of the final outcome of the fight.
I hope we can agree on this  :)

And, regarding the Istari and their physical body, I think I can make a valuable and reasonable speculation  xD

Firstly, it's a bit of a tricky matter because the Istari are not exactly like the Ainur for their known restrictions.
But, I think we should start with considering the Ainur's basic characteristics: taking for granted that – as long as an Ainu decides to take a physical form – their body and spirit are deeply connected, if then the physical dimension is destroyed for any reason, the spirit will result in being damaged too, ending up with losing some powers or properties.
There is a pretty clear explanation in the Silmarillion about the Ainur and the physical form they decided to turn into; there is also a significant reference to this when Lúthien convinces Sauron to lay down his magical control of Tol-in-Gaurhoth, reminding him that Huan could have deprived him from his body (with extremely negative consequences) and that he would have had to respond of his failure to his Dark Lord.

I don't have these quotations at hand, now, for time reasons.
But, I hope you will trust me  :D

Returning now to the Istari, they can obviously die and lose their old body (which is not 'old' in potency and energy, though).
I would thus suggest that their spirit, instead of having the possibility to linger and take back part of its past capabilities as the Ainur can, doesn't have the chance, anymore, to regain power or to take again a physical form (unless they are admitted to Valinor).
Saruman's spirit will thus wander forever in the World, banned from Aman, harmless and hopeless.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 7. Mär 2016, 15:08
I got a question about the One Ring.  I'm sorry if this has been asked already.  I did quickly look over this thread to see if this was asked, but I might have missed something.

Now from the Movies, and I assume the books too, though I have never read them, that the Putting on the One Ring makes you invisible, or at least invisible to the Normal World, I think it puts you in this sort of "Wraith Dimension", though correct me if I'm wrong. 

So my question is not why does it make you invisible, but actually, Did Sauron want the One Ring to do that?  If so, why?  What purpose does that serve?

Thanks in advance.  :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 7. Mär 2016, 17:15
The effects the One Ring has is directly proportional to how much magical ability (or how mighty) someone was to begin with. So for people such as Isildur, Bilbo, and Frodo, it only grants invisibility, having no magical power of their own. On the other hand, the One, when wielded (or theoretically wielded) by mighty beings such as Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond, Saruman, or Sauron, has a multiplying effect on their power.

However, its never said whether its said if he wanted it to provide invisibility. However, this One Ring, the Master Ring, was meant to be the greatest of them all (obviously that failed; the One does not have the same powers as say the 3, for example). And some of the lesser 'trial' rings granted invisibility. So I would not be surprised at all if it had Invisibility built into it from the beginning.

As for what purpose the invisibility could serve? Sauron, mastermind though he is, has a track record of actually losing his confrontations when on the battlefield himself. He is master tactician, administrator and manipulator, not a warrior. So if invisibility was built into the ring back when he could be fair, it could also serve as a way of him escaping defeat.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 7. Mär 2016, 17:45
The effects the One Ring has is directly proportional to how much magical ability (or how mighty) someone was to begin with. So for people such as Isildur, Bilbo, and Frodo, it only grants invisibility, having no magical power of their own. On the other hand, the One, when wielded (or theoretically wielded) by mighty beings such as Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond, Saruman, or Sauron, has a multiplying effect on their power.

However, its never said whether its said if he wanted it to provide invisibility. However, this One Ring, the Master Ring, was meant to be the greatest of them all (obviously that failed; the One does not have the same powers as say the 3, for example). And some of the lesser 'trial' rings granted invisibility. So I would not be surprised at all if it had Invisibility built into it from the beginning.

As for what purpose the invisibility could serve? Sauron, mastermind though he is, has a track record of actually losing his confrontations when on the battlefield himself. He is master tactician, administrator and manipulator, not a warrior. So if invisibility was built into the ring back when he could be fair, it could also serve as a way of him escaping defeat.
Interesting.  Still, I don't think Sauron would intentionally want the One Ring to give invincibility.  Even though he is not a great warrior, I think the power he would get from the One Ring would make him strong enough to win against pretty much anyone.  I would imagine there would be a very small amount of people that could defeat Sauron once he has the One Ring(or, at least, that is what he would think before Isildur defeated him).

And Sauron doesn't seem to be very cautious.  I would argue that if he was more cautious, he would not have lost the ring in the first place, so I don't think he would even want a function that allows him to escape combat. 

Of course, you know much more then me when it comes to this lore, so correct me if I'm wrong with anything I say.   ;)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 7. Mär 2016, 17:55
Sauron loses the Ring because he gets cocky off his victory over the 2 High-Kings, personally. He's not expecting Isildur or anyone being able to defeat him at this point. That's why he goes to 'humiliate' his enemies in killing Isildur by choking, to serve as an example of his power. However, I personally believe that even if Isildur failed to get the ring off him, he still would have lost to the Alliance.

And also, the Ring's ability to grant invisibility could also be used for manipulative reasons (this of course, back when he was still fair). He could walk among his enemies and whisper in their ears, spread doubt and suspicion, his enemies believing his voice is  their own worries.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 7. Mär 2016, 21:25
Sauron loses the Ring because he gets cocky off his victory over the 2 High-Kings, personally. He's not expecting Isildur or anyone being able to defeat him at this point. That's why he goes to 'humiliate' his enemies in killing Isildur by choking, to serve as an example of his power. However, I personally believe that even if Isildur failed to get the ring off him, he still would have lost to the Alliance.

And also, the Ring's ability to grant invisibility could also be used for manipulative reasons (this of course, back when he was still fair). He could walk among his enemies and whisper in their ears, spread doubt and suspicion, his enemies believing his voice is  their own worries.

Yeah I guess that makes more sense.   I guess there is no definite answer, but I would be willing to believe that he would use it to spread doubt, or potentially spy on them. 

That is actually a question I've had for a while.  I really appreciate you answering it. :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 9. Mär 2016, 22:10
So my question is not why does it make you invisible, but actually, Did Sauron want the One Ring to do that?  If so, why?  What purpose does that serve?

Good question.
Yes, the Ring brings you into the Unseen World, the Wraith World, and thus turns you invisible for everyone who only dwells in the Seen World.
But why he does that is something, I don't think I ever heard of. ^^

I think Galadriel mentions, that someone who could use the ring, wouldn't turn invisible. So like VectorMaximus mentioned, only People without a strong Will or magical powers will turn invisible "by default".
(though I would actually say Isildurs Will might have been strong enough. Same goes for Aragorn btw.)

So my speculation would be that the invisibility part was just another unplanned side effect of the ring, that Sauron never expected that or used it in that way.
As you said Hamanathnath, I also think it doesn't make sense for Sauron, who could have controlled and beaten enemies with the ring, to use it for hidden attacks or stealth missions.
After all, we know of Saurons greatest manipulative Mission: The Seduction of Numenor. And he did it definetly WITHOUT the One Ring.

So why does the One Ring Transport you into the Unseen World? What is the Unseen World anyway?
No idea.
Maybe it is a world where Spirits are much easier to access? Since the One Ring gives you the power to dominate minds, maybe he's channeling your power into the Unseen in order to dominate other Spirits from there?
Maybe. Who knows... ^^


Zitat
So if invisibility was built into the ring back when he could be fair, it could also serve as a way of him escaping defeat.
Back when he was fair, means also back when he could take any form he wanted. Why should he Need to turn invisible then in order to flee, when he just as well Change his form into something unnoticeable, or maybe completely leave his Body behind?
(though I'm not 100 % sure if Sauron could have leaft his Body...)

Zitat
Sauron loses the Ring because he gets cocky off his victory over the 2 High-Kings, personally. He's not expecting Isildur or anyone being able to defeat him at this point. That's why he goes to 'humiliate' his enemies in killing Isildur by choking, to serve as an example of his power.
Nope.
Just in the movie version.
In the book Sauron lost in an epic brawl against Gil-Galad AND Elendil AND Elrond AND Cirdan AND Isildur, all at once. Sauron was already lying defeated on the ground (after killing Gil-Galad and Elendil) when Isildur stepped up and cut the One Ring off his finger.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 10. Mär 2016, 10:27
Just for the sake of the discussion, I would like to redirect everyone to a very specific explanation (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Unseen) of the Unseen World given by Tolkien Gateway, based on passages of the Silmarillion and LOTR.

It's basically another dimension, mainly 'inhabited' by powerful spiritual creatures of all sort, good and evil.
And, if I understood rightly, the difference between the two dimensions is very narrow in Aman, and the Elves of Valinor can exist in both  :)

Though, I can't find any explanation why the One Ring can grant this particular property.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 10. Mär 2016, 14:57

Zitat
So if invisibility was built into the ring back when he could be fair, it could also serve as a way of him escaping defeat.
Back when he was fair, means also back when he could take any form he wanted. Why should he Need to turn invisible then in order to flee, when he just as well Change his form into something unnoticeable, or maybe completely leave his Body behind?
(though I'm not 100 % sure if Sauron could have leaft his Body...)

Fair enough, but being invisible is in my opinion a better escape method then transforming. You are still able to open any necessary doors, grab tools or objects you may want, and you cannot be seen, obviously(though not untouchable, to be fair).


Zitat
Sauron loses the Ring because he gets cocky off his victory over the 2 High-Kings, personally. He's not expecting Isildur or anyone being able to defeat him at this point. That's why he goes to 'humiliate' his enemies in killing Isildur by choking, to serve as an example of his power.
Nope.
Just in the movie version.
In the book Sauron lost in an epic brawl against Gil-Galad AND Elendil AND Elrond AND Cirdan AND Isildur, all at once. Sauron was already lying defeated on the ground (after killing Gil-Galad and Elendil) when Isildur stepped up and cut the One Ring off his finger.

Yeah I know that, the whole 'Sauron got cocky' is just my way of explaining away the movie beginning, which just really annoys me to be honest. We could have had such an epic brawl!
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: bookworm1138 am 10. Mär 2016, 21:01
i was of the belief that, from reading the books, the invisibility came as a result of the Rings of Power dominating their bearers. that would explain why the Dwarves never turned invisible (because they were hardier), and why the Elven Rings never turned their bearers invisible, since they were not made by Sauron and not designed for dominating others. that is why Tom Bombadil didn't turn invisible when he put on the Ring, as his power was greater than that of Sauron (whether you want to believe that Tom is Eru or a personification of Nature, it stands to reason that either A] Eru cannot be conquered by Sauron, a being of lesser might than Melkor/Morgoth, who himself is below Eru in power, or B] Sauron's power was not yet strong enough that he could overcome ALL of nature, though Elrond hinted in The Council of Elrond that, given time, he would be strong enough and then Tom would fall at the very last)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Fine am 11. Mär 2016, 08:49
i was of the belief that, from reading the books, the invisibility came as a result of the Rings of Power dominating their bearers. that would explain why the Dwarves never turned invisible (because they were hardier), and why the Elven Rings never turned their bearers invisible, since they were not made by Sauron and not designed for dominating others. that is why Tom Bombadil didn't turn invisible when he put on the Ring.

Makes sense, I can get behind that. Although I do wonder if the Nine Rings of Men did turn their bearers invisible - In my head, I think they did not, but were instead worn openly as signs of power, as is the nature of Men (who were deceived by Sauron); wanting to be superior to others and showing their status.
I wonder at what point the Nine became the wraiths they were during the War of the Ring; since they do not need to wear their rings to remain invisible (iirc they did not wear the rings in the Third Age). I also wonder why Sauron took their rings from them - was he planning to use them on other men to create even more Ringwraiths?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: lord_ellessar am 14. Mär 2016, 23:52

So, I assume that the balrog is Just like a big ostrich ? :P
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 15. Mär 2016, 00:05
If you are new to this section, welcome to the Lore Corner  ;)

That was a structured, detailed and highly advanced speculation from Adamin; actually one of the first ones of this space.
He too loves speculations, even if he won't admit it so openly  :D
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: lord_ellessar am 15. Mär 2016, 00:08
I'm new in this corner but i don't have too few knowledge about the lotr universe :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 15. Mär 2016, 00:15
I'm new in this corner but i don't have too few knowledge about the lotr universe :)

If you don't feel comfortable, for now, with debating lore matters, you can just ask any question you are interested into or have doubts about, in case you wanted to seek for answers.

This space was also established for answering people's questions – as the title of the thread suggests – as long as enabling lore discussions among ourselves  ;)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: lord_ellessar am 15. Mär 2016, 00:23
Well I had a rhetoric question, it's about the rams of the botfa, I personally really liked them and I wanted to know if i m alone to think that it really fit with the dwarves, I mean even if the dwarven people is really strong, endured and all and all I know that rams can climb cliffs that a men (or a dwarf) couldn't do easily especially during a battle, so I really liked this idea... But the boar of Dain is more controversial for me, even if he is nice (even if I think it should be bigger) it doesn't fit to walk on escarped ways of the dwarven hills mountains, so, can someone argue against me for the boar or against the rams... :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 15. Mär 2016, 03:48
While I definitely agree that goats are more befitting of the Iron Hills terrain, I don't really have any major issues with the boar. I imagine the dwarves raise them for the meat, and it's not outside the realm of possibility that Dain bred one to ride cause he wanted to, or to signify his position in a charge of goats.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 15. Mär 2016, 08:42
I agree with Vector.
There is really nothing that suggests that the Dwarves of the Iron Hills can't make usage of rams to cope with the mountainous environment they live in.

Just like deers and elks for the Silvan Elves of the Woodland Realm  :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: lord_ellessar am 15. Mär 2016, 16:59
So you think that Dain have chose to ride a boar for the prestige and then ride it only for battles or parades :) it seems interesting, I think the boar should look bigger :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 15. Mär 2016, 17:13
Dáin's boar and Thranduil's elk are evidently meant to give to their own riders a more authoritative and distinctive appearance.

In history too we have many examples of how royal and authoritative figures choose to 'sanctify' or legitimise their image by choosing particular and above-the-average mounts.
The point is that everything is meant to display more effectively their authority on the ones they rule over.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: lord_ellessar am 15. Mär 2016, 17:17
So this is okay with the lore :) after all i though, the goblins and Orcs have wargs, that are big wolves then big goats are well fitting in the middle earth lore :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 15. Mär 2016, 17:23
So this is okay with the lore :) after all i though, the goblins and Orcs have wargs, that are big wolves then big goats are well fitting in the middle earth lore :)

We don't have really exact statements in the pure lore about these matters, but it's definitely legitimate thinking about the different cases at hand (involving special mounts for higher characters like Gandalf and others), matching them with the whole archaic motive that the Tolkien Legendarium is based on and coming out with our speculation.

It's also very interesting noticing how the usage of particular animals has a pivotal role in the lore, resembling one of the most common traits of myths and legends  :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: lord_ellessar am 15. Mär 2016, 17:55
Indeed the chariot of Thor is bring by goats :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: lord_ellessar am 27. Mär 2016, 18:30
In what colour does Orcrist and Glamdring glow ?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Mär 2016, 18:38
In what colour does Orcrist and Glamdring glow ?

All the mighty Noldorin Swords generally glow of a blue luminescence at the presence of Orcs.

This legendary property was always considered as pure Elven Magic by the other races (a bit envious, probably), but more precisely – apart from the extremely wide connotations that Magic can have in the Tolkien's Legendarium – this property was 'just' the external manifestation in the physical world of the Elves' unknown Art/Craftsmanship; a prerogative that the other races could have never replicated  :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 27. Mär 2016, 23:06
Zitat
This legendary property was always considered as pure Elven Magic by the other races (a bit envious, probably), but more precisely – apart from the extremely wide connotations that Magic can have in the Tolkien's Legendarium – this property was 'just' the external manifestation in the physical world of the Elves' unknown Art/Craftsmanship; a prerogative that the other races could have never replicated  :)
Well, this certainly doesn't contradict this interpretation, but if I am not mistaken, the swords are essentially a sort of sentinent being in that they can feel the presence the impure presence of orcish scum, so to speak. I'm pretty sure when they find Glamdring and Sting in the troll hoard, it says that the blades shine angrily when in the presence of orcs. Hope I'm not mistaken, and yes this doesn't really relate to the original question. ;)

Edit: BTW, coming to think about this: Do we know if all elvish blades share this trait? First of all, if yes the EA forged blades lightsabers are actually not that far away from how an elven army should look. [ugly] This is mostly the point where I am beginning to think that this "ability" might not apply to all elven blades, because it would look totally stupid... The thing is that Glamdring being an extremely ancient weapon of royal background might represent the minority of elvish blades because its creator's city was destroyed by orcs, therefore granting the blade an extraordinary amount of hatred towards Morgoth's creatures. Might sound as over the top as an all glow-sword elven army, but I'd like to hear second thoughts about it. (Mostly, because I just don't get this imagery of Jedi-elves out of my head right now. xD)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: Yes, the thoughts after the horizontal line require exactly this amount of smileys, because a) I said so and b) the topic is a bit ridiculous^^
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Saruman der Bunte am 27. Mär 2016, 23:38
Well and concerning sentient swords in the legendarium: just read The Children of Hurin (or any other version of the story of Turin Turambar).
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Mär 2016, 23:55
I agree with you, Melkor.
It's concretely plausible that it was the prerogative of the Noldor only, mainly due to their natural interest in forging and, after fear and doubts spreaded throughout Eldamar, in warfare. The attendance of Aulë may have certainly influenced greatly the improvements of their overall skills; the brief attendance of Melkor during the merry days of Valinor has probably and indirectly played a significant role too in the development of an advanced craftsmanship (you see, you are always involved  xD).

As you wrote, the ones possessing those swords were themselves a minority within the minority; with high probability, royal and other authoritative Noldorin figures.

If you are interested in other 'advanced craftsmanship features', it is told that the armours of the Valinor's Host (thus Vanyar and Maiar in prevalence) would shine of a holy light during the apocalyptic battles of the War of Wrath, when, presumably, the skies of Beleriand were covered by perennial darkness caused by Morgoth's powers.
Elrond tells the Council, in FOTR, that the light the Host emanated could fill plains and lands. Thus a speculation: magical armours as a prerogative of the troops of the Blessed Realm?  :P

By the way, hilarious smiles shouldn't be your main concern as you tried to slay the Silmarillion once, and I will never forget this  :D
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 28. Mär 2016, 00:27
Zitat
By the way, hilarious smiles shouldn't be your main concern as you tried to slay the Silmarillion once, and I will never forget this  :D
Well, I'm literally "THE Evil" practically inventing it in the first place. That's what I do. :P
But, truth told, I don't really see it that way, for the most part those points aren't really bothering me that much. Just if we're talking about making films of a (clearly ;)) un-filmable book, I have to intervene.

BTW, I totally forgot about Gurthang, which is actually a very valid point supporting the first statement. My bad, won't happen again (without promising).


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: CragLord am 12. Mai 2016, 21:53
Very interesting and realistic "study" about Dragons&Evolution Of Dragons in Tolkien's universe: Link (http://turnermohan.deviantart.com/art/Evolution-Of-Dragons-605528357?offset=25#comments)
Pretty amazing in my opinion. :)
So, do you agree with something similar in lore terms? :)

Regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Mai 2016, 01:14
Simply phenomenal! There always is precious material on DeviantArt that just awaits to be discovered  ;)

The Winged Dragons appeared only in the very final stage of the War of Wrath, and neither the survivors of Beleriand nor the Host of the Valar had ever known of their existence until that time; it was a terrible and totally unexpected shock for the good forces, so that they even risked defeat when they were almost reaching victory in front of the doors of Angband.

Apart from their immensely terrible power (probably akin to the one of the Maiar), it's not mentioned at all how they were exactly bred by Morgoth. It's obvious that he may have used an unthinkable quantity of dark Margic and his own vital force (leaving him basically powerless) in the creation of such calamities; it's not explained, though, whether they were a totally new specie, if they evolved from the previous snake-like Dragons or if they were a corrupted form of an originally good/neutral beast (as Orcs are the corrupted version of Elves, and since the Evil can't create anything new on its own, but it can just mar things).

I personally appreciate the idea of them being completely new and revolutionary from all the past foul creatures that Morgoth had been unleashing against the Eldar and the Edain in the War of the Jewels. The main 'concept' of fire-breathing beasts was likely to be already present in Morgoth's mind, but I guess he really had to use his imagination to the fullest in coming up with what is probably the most powerful force of the Evil beside the Balrogs.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Jul 2016, 02:44
Should the One Ring have never been found, would Sauron have prevailed anyway over the Free People of Middle Earth?

I think that this question is very much intriguing, primarily for the fact of having never been addressed in a so defined way in LOTR. The One Ring plays obviously an immensely prominent role as the 'magical tool' at the centre of the tale, in the trilogy; that's why I can't recall Tolkien ever inferring the possibility exposed above (that could have risked to devalue a bit the essential role of the artefact in the plot: the final victory over Sauron or the total destruction of Middle Earth.

On another tone, there is a passage in the Silmarillion that summarises the content of one of the White Council's meetings, in which Gandalf expresses his serious concern about the return of the Shadow in the World. An opinion that seems to be shared also by Elrond and Galadriel as well. What do you think about it? Do you feel like trusting more the iconic apocalyptic style of LOTR (which makes the One Ring the necessary premise for Sauron's triumph or downfall) or the summarised mythical knowledge of the Third Age contained in the last part of the Silmarillion?

Zitat
But ever the shadow in Mirkwood grew deeper, and to Dol Guldur evil things repaired out of all the dark places of the world; and they were united again under one will, and their malice was directed against the Elves and the survivors of Númenor. Therefore at last the Council was again summoned and the lore of the Rings was much debated; but Mithrandir spoke to the Council, saying:
‘It is not needed that the Ring should be found, for while it abides on earth and is not unmade, still the power that it holds will live, and Sauron will grow and have hope. The might of the Elves and the Elf-friends is less now than of old. Soon he will be too strong for you, even without the Great Ring; for he rules the Nine, and of the Seven he has recovered three. We must strike.'
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Fine am 27. Jul 2016, 08:12
Well, if you simply look at the situation at the Black Gate - without the destruction of the One Ring, the army of the West would have been soundly defeated. So yes, I believe Sauron did not need the One Ring to claim dominion over Middle-earth during the War of the Ring. Had it not been found by Bilbo, Gondor (and afterwards, the remaining realms of Men, Elves and Dwarves) would have fallen.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 27. Jul 2016, 08:52
Definitely, there are also another quote I'd like to bring to the table on this matter.
By Denethor as reported by Gandalf during the last debate:
"You may triumph on the fields of the Pelennor for a day, but against the Power that has now arisen there is no victory."

After this quote Gandalf goes on saying that the next assault will be bigger than the siege of Minas Tirith and finishes by telling the Captains of the West that whether they take up arms or decide to hold a siege they'll be overwhelmed. (Gandalf must be fun at parties) So it truly seems that whether or not the Ring was found Sauron would have triumphed less Elrond found that host of the Elves in the armour of the Elder Fays he desired, but even the. Nothing would have been more unsure
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: -Mandos- am 27. Jul 2016, 13:48
Even if I think that the armies of the west would have survived longer if they hadn't marched to the black gate, I too believe that they would have slowly lost to Sauron. That is, if they wouldn't receive any help. I'm not quite sure, but I believe that the Valar would interfere if Sauron would be seizing control over middle earth. It is said, if I remember correctly, that the Valar dont want to act directly (thus sending the Istari), but I cant believe that they would let the free people fall (especially the humans who have no chance to sail to Tol Eressea).
That's a lot of would and believe, but I guess it's an interesting topic. What must happen that the Valar interefere directly?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Jul 2016, 15:40
I too personally rely more on that quotation from the Silmarillion, and it's very interesting to see how the might of the Free People had been diminishing until the War of the Ring and how Sauron managed to plan his return carefully, gathering all the disbanded evil forces under his command for the last time. Beside the natural and progressive departure of the valiant Eldar from Middle Earth during the Third Age, it's also very indicative that the very descendants of Númenor had lost so much power and their previous merry days of glory had been gone.

I don't think that the Valar would have ever intervened against Sauron, if the Free People had been defeated. Of course, they have always cared about the mortals' fate and they had thus sent the Istari for the exact purpose of aiding them in what would have been their most difficult challenge. Only, the decision of the Valar for a non-intervention policy was quite absolute at the end of the War of Wrath, lest the World be devastated again by immense destruction. Adding to this, Ilúvatar itself divided Aman and Eressëa from Arda anyway, with the great Cataclysm (something that the Powers of the West could have never done themselves and could never reverse). Also, I remember a line from Galadriel in The Two Towers, when she foresees what would have happened with the triumph of Sauron: she states that the Dark Lord would have had dominion over all Middle Earth and even onto the ending of the World itself.

As much fictional this line might be, I personally find it very appropriate. The primary interest of the Valar is safeguarding the destiny of the Elves in Aman, who are bound to live until Arda itself and Aman exist (the very Ainur share this destiny). The fate of the Mortals has always been undoubtedly harsh, due to their very weaker and feeble nature; they were nonetheless granted the Gift of Ilúvatar: that is, the possibility of leaving the physical dimension and the inexorable burden of time completely, to live alongside Eru in its eternal Timeless Halls. A place that, as God itself, has always existed in the past, always exists in the present and forever shall do in the future.

Based on the prophecy of Mandos and what Manwë and Varda might know, the Good is eventually destined to prevail; not until Ilúvatar itself purifies Arda and remakes it again from the beginning (something that can only happen at the End).
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Aug 2016, 01:16
Good evening, gentle attendees of this thread. I have an interesting question to pose: how do you imagine the grey and sad Halls of Mandos to be?

As far as I can recall, there are no passages in the lore that describe exactly their actual geographical and physical conformation (if we can still talk about a really 'physical' dimension, as the ones in the outer ordinary World). Personally, the most convincing and accurate speculation I have ever read so far is the one shown in this detailed map of Valinor (https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31019.msg441920.html#msg441920) and also in other articles here and there on the Internet.

Based on this theory, the Halls of Mandos are actually caverns (either on the surface of the earth or excavated deep in the ground). As the lore tells, the realm of the Vala Námo/Mandos is nonetheless located in the Blessed Realm (that is, within the Pelóri), but on its westernmost and furthest ends; thus, away from the joyful atmosphere of the radiant dwellings of the Ainur and the Elves, and characterised by an evil-less sadness which is emanated mostly by the Elven souls that linger there, mourning and waiting for the proper moment to be admitted to the eternal bliss of Valinor in a living body (we know that a few spirits, as Fëanor, will never find peace again until the End).


This other picture, representing the heartfelt plea of Lúthien to the Judge Vala, seems to suggest a more mysterious and open-air concept. Anyway, I would really like to know your opinions about this significant theme  :)

Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Shadowxgate am 31. Dez 2016, 03:21
I was wondering because Elrond is last living member of the house of Fingolfin and a direct descendant of Elu Thingol so does he have a claim on the High Kingship of the elves of middle earth being both the last descendant of the high king of the noldor and of the high king of the teleri? how does elven succession work? and what does it mean in the over all picture?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 1. Jan 2017, 20:31
I was wondering because Elrond is last living member of the house of Fingolfin and a direct descendant of Elu Thingol so does he have a claim on the High Kingship of the elves of middle earth being both the last descendant of the high king of the noldor and of the high king of the teleri? how does elven succession work? and what does it mean in the over all picture?

Such a pleasant topic to begin the new year with  ;)

Well, since the whole lineage of Elrond is quite extensive, I'll try to focus on the most pivotal and conceptual points, without just listing names and facts. Let's start with saying that Elrond's ancestry is extraordinary indeed; one of the greatest of Tolkien's lore, if I may say so. Through Eärendil's bloodline he is a descendant of the Noldorin royal family that had left Aman after the end of the Noon of Valinor, and, in particular, of Turgon (the king of Gondolin); Eärendil's father, on his side, grants the Lord of Imladris a linkage to the noble House of the Edain (the noblest among Men).

Through Elwing's bloodline (his mother), Elrond is related to Elwë, the High King of the Teleri, and, most importantly, he has the holy blood of Melian (a Maia) in his own veins. So, this incredibly legendary legacy probably makes Elrond the noblest character in the Third Age by lineage, given his connection to the greatest ones of the Elves, of Men and even to the Ainur. In light of these premises and to partly answer your question: yes, Elrond could theoretically claim the title of High King of the Elves of Middle-earth without any problem.

There are some fundamental aspects that must be considered though. First of all, there is another Elf that could claim such authoritative title, and I'm speaking about Galadriel, who is widely regarded as the mightiest Elf of the Third Age and who is legitimately the only one of the Noldorin princes that survived the exile from Aman. That said, it's never explicitly stated in the books whether an Elf-maiden may ever become High Queen of the Elves and I really doubt this (even though Galadriel does hold the title of the de facto Queen of the Elves in the Third Age). But even if she could claim that title, both she and Elrond would never desire for that anyway: in the disenchanted Third Age and with the power of the Eldar continuously waning, it wouldn't have much sense to have another High King of the Elves again (and they wouldn't have the military capacity either), given that the main characters in charge of the World's defence are Men.

Also, I guess the two would never dare to make such choice, as a sign of profound respect towards the past High Kings of the Elves, who had to withstand much more terrible threats in the centuries before.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Fredius am 3. Jan 2017, 01:34
I've found something very interesting while playing the Divide and Conquer submod for the Third Age Total War mod. The mod has a faction called "The Vale of Anduin", and contains units like Beornings and the Men of Anduin. However, there was another specific type of units available to the faction; Hobbits! These type of Hobbits are called the Stoor Hobbits, and I quote from Tolkien Gateway (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Stoors): "They were heavier and broader in build than the other Hobbits, and had large hands and feet. Among the Hobbits, the Stoors most resembled Men and were most friendly to them. Stoors were the only Hobbits who normally grew facial hair".

Now comes the interesting part. During the early Third Age these Stoor Hobbits migrated to the Shire, and became part of the population. However, because of the threat of Angmar, many Stoors decided to migrate back to Dunland or Rhovanion, and I quote again from Tolkien Gateway: "What became of those Stoors and whether they rejoined their folk in Eriador, no history tells".

This means that there are possibly Hobbits living in Rhovanion and Dunland during the War of the Ring. This information can perhaps be used by the community to propose a new idea for a possible sub-faction; perhaps an Anduin subfaction for Lothlorien, which contains both the Men of the Anduin and these Stoor Hobbits? In any case, I just thought you guys would like this information as much as I did when I discovered it xD.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Jan 2017, 01:58
This information can perhaps be used by the community to propose a new idea for a possible sub-faction; perhaps an Anduin subfaction for Lothlorien, which contains both the Men of the Anduin and these Stoor Hobbits?

How about NO?  :D
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Fredius am 3. Jan 2017, 02:05
Well it's just an idea :P, but why not if I may ask? The Beornings are from the same area and incorporated into the faction, so it would make sense to have these Woodmen (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Woodmen) and Hobbits be part of the faction as well.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Jan 2017, 02:35
Hobbits in Lothlórien and additional human units, of whom we know very little about? I guess the people of the woods are already well represented in the current shape of the faction, and we should always remember that Lothlórien is supposed to be a predominantly Elven faction. That doesn't mean that other races are automatically excluded (which is not the current case either), but there ought to be a measure.

Unless someone desires to intentionally spoil the faction for unknown reasons  [ugly]
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Fredius am 3. Jan 2017, 03:06
Imladris should be a predominantly Elven faction as well if we think like that. With both Dunedain and Hobbits as part of their faction it might be called Eriador instead, but it remains Imladris, and even with all those other different folks it's still represented very well as a predominantly Elven faction.

Even if the Vale of Anduin is incorporated as a subfaction, then Lothlorien will still remain a predominantly Elven faction. Why? First of all, the Elves are even more respresented through the kingdom of Mirkwood subfaction. But also because the main fortress is Lothlorien, and you can't survive without this main fortress, while building an outpost is a choice the player can make, but is not obligated to it. If you don't want to play with the Vale of Anduin, then simply don't build their outpost :P.

Another point is that a subfaction doesn't necessarily mean that they are part of the main faction. Mirkwood, for example, is an independent kingdom and not part of Lothlorien. I'm not disputing the alliance both factions have, but alliances are not necessarily a criterium to incorporate certain elements into the mod. Beornings, Ents (and Huorns), Hobbits and others never officially made an alliance to the faction they currently are part of in the mod, but are still a key element to those factions.

Personally I would love to see all of Middle-Earth represented in the mod, and this includes the peoples we don't know much about. This includes Peoples like the Orocarni Dwarves, Men (and possibly Hobbits) of the Anduin, Dorwinion Elves and Men, and the list goes on. I wouldn't mind to sacrifice a bit of lore for that. But hey, that's just my personal opinion :P.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Jan 2017, 14:58
And one should ask oneself: does Lothlórien really deserve to have 4/5 different subfactions under its control, surpassing probably even Mordor? Everything can always be perfected and new things can be added for the sake of differentiation, but the entire Middle-earth can't objectively fit in the game. How many quasi-unknown characters or races could be added to each faction then? What I tried to point out is that we always need a certain measure in things. Speaking about Lothlórien/Mirkwood, the faction is certainly predominantly Elven now (and it is exactly supposed to be so), and I in fact think that no other non-Elven elements should be implemented in its design, lest the primary nature of the very faction be altered.

It's not really a matter of 'if you don't want to use that subfaction, then don't build that outpost/building in the first place'; it's something much deeper. When I have to consider the whole faction, I consider every of its parts, and not just the things I like to make usage of. If I have to express a general judgement on a faction's shape (conceptual properties, lore, films, gameplay and the list goes on), I must necessarily focus on the whole picture to come up with a reasonable response.

Beside those aspects, there is also a just level of cinematographic atmosphere that needs to be preserved, I guess. And I'm personally really sensitive about it, as much as the pure lore; just like when we discussed about sounds in the game. Films have always been a fundamental trait of this series since BFME1, and they should always be so. Henceforth, not that I despise new additions from the pure lore, but, in this case, it's quite obvious that those concepts would require a lot of fictional (thus highly personal) thinking and their connotation would ultimately be predominantly fictional too, given the very few information at our disposal. Based on this reasoning, I would never see the propriety of altering in any way the already-balanced design of Lothlórien/Mirkwood, just to implement a mysterious kind of Hobbits or other Men of the woods  ;)

Not even for a cup of tea, or, in this case, for some Lembas  :D
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Fredius am 3. Jan 2017, 16:45
They're not under Lothlorien's control, that's the thing. They are there to represent that whole part of the Northern realm. Beornings, Ents and Mirkwood are not under control of Lothlorien, much like that the Anduin isn't under control of anyone as well. I personally don't see a problem with adding more subfactions to certain factions, as long as it makes sense in the lore (i.e. not adding a Mordor subfaction to Rohan).

Look, the moment Edain decided to make their own version of Angmar is the moment that the mod turned from based on pure lore, to based on lore but there is always room for speculation. This way of thinking is even more strenghtened with the addition of the Ered Mithrin subfaction to Iron Hills. Why support that but not the addition of the Men of the Anduin? The same thing can yet again be said about Imladris with it's addition of the Dunedain and Hobbits.

Like you, I also love the cinematographic influences of the films, and who said we can't apply these influences to the Men (and Hobbits) of the Anduin as well? The Men of the Anduin are the ancestors of the Rohirrim, so we could use that knowledge to design the Men of the Anduin in a sense that makes them look similair to the Rohirrim, but nonetheless still different; I already have some small ideas in mind. Same could be said about the Stoor Hobbits, for which we have excellent descriptions of in the lore. So no I don't think we have that few information about them :P.

On the matter of balance I haven't thought about something yet. However, the more I write about these Anduin folks, the more I get the motivation to make a proposal about this faction in the Lothlorien subforums. It would be great to see what others think of this addition to Lothlorien. I will think about it a bit longer and post a thread, no worries ;).
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Jan 2017, 17:51
No one questioned the lore accuracy of such characters, but the logic of the pure lore can't always be perfectly applied to the game though, as it might often disregard aspects as gameplay or uniqueness (just think about the current unique relationship between Hobbits and Imladris). As I said, it would be quite naïve to think that the entire Middle-earth could wholly fit in the game. Lothlórien is already very much variegated at the current state of things (Lórien, Mirkwood, Beornings, Ents and Radagast), maybe even more than Imladris or Rohan. I thus can't see any need, speaking about gameplay and concepts, to implement those additional units. I envisage any new addition of that sort as potentially disruptive and unnecessary. That's my opinion.

The moment they decided to deal with Angmar in that way, they did so because the particular context of the faction permitted them to do so; in that sense, they were also forced to rely on fictional material, and I don't absolutely deem this fact negative (taking into account those precise boundaries). Their choice was thus completely justified. Yet factions like Mordor, Gondor or Lothlórien are a very different case: I don't think there is a possible ground to make reasonable comparisons with Angmar then. Angmar's premises can't be applied to Lórien. It's plainly comprehensible.

Regarding the cinematographic atmosphere that the game should preserve, your solution is a quite non-sequitur statement, as its logical deductions aren't very much coherent, in my personal view. The cinematographic issue is an issue because we can't dispose of cinematographic transpositions from LOTR (or from the Hobbit) of those characters in the first place. They're not present in the films. So, thinking to solve the dilemma via opting for a resemblance to the films' portrait doesn't resolve it indeed, because those or other choices would nonetheless be fictional anyway; a person's interpretation based on a person's own thoughts. In light of these considerations, I think this issue just can't be dealt with properly, if not opting for the 'Angmar-way'.

Nevertheless, since I'm always keen on reading new proposals, I'm really looking forward to that. Good luck with it  :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Fredius am 3. Jan 2017, 19:30
The moment they decided to deal with Angmar in that way, they did so because the particular context of the faction permitted them to do so; in that sense, they were also forced to rely on fictional material, and I don't absolutely deem this fact negative (taking into account those precise boundaries). Their choice was thus completely justified. Yet factions like Mordor, Gondor or Lothlórien are a very different case: I don't think there is a possible ground to make reasonable comparisons with Angmar then. Angmar's premises can't be applied to Lórien. It's plainly comprehensible.

It's exactly like I said, adding fictional material is not negative, however I disagree that it is justified for the reasonings you gave. First of all, the faction Lothlorien is not "Lothlorien", it's a combination of different factions, with Lothlorien being the main faction. Adding Anduin to it won't change that, as a matter of fact the Anduin already has the Beornings, I'm just expanding that subfaction. Because of those reasons Lothlorien does not belong to the same list as Mordor and Gondor, since those 2 factions' regions and units belong to them. Dol Guldur, Morgul and Cirith Ungol are part of Mordor, the fiefdoms of Gondor are part of Gondor, while Mirkwood, Beornings or the Ents are not part of the Kingdom of Lothlorien. This is the difference I'm trying to tell you all this time [ugly]!

Regarding the cinematographic atmosphere that the game should preserve, your solution is a quite non-sequitur statement, as its logical deductions aren't very much coherent, in my personal view. The cinematographic issue is an issue because we can't dispose of cinematographic transpositions from LOTR (or from the Hobbit) of those characters in the first place. They're not present in the films. So, thinking to solve the dilemma via opting for a resemblance to the films' portrait doesn't resolve it indeed, because those or other choices would nonetheless be fictional anyway; a person's interpretation based on a person's own thoughts. In light of these considerations, I think this issue just can't be dealt with properly, if not opting for the 'Angmar-way'.

And I don't see why, design-wise, it's a bad thing to add elements that are not directly from the movie, but still are influenced by it. A lot of units in the mod are design wise based on fiction, but still they keep the movie influences in it. Even the recent Guards of Orthanc concept art is fully fictional, and nobody seems to mind that, including you chief :P. However, it does keep certain movie elements in it, for example the helmet that looks like that of Gondor, or the spear that resembles the Tower of Orthanc. If I did the same thing with the Men of Anduin (which I was planning to do), would you still disagree with that?

Nevertheless, since I'm always keen on reading new proposals, I'm really looking forward to that. Good luck with it  :)

Thanks man. Look I know your love for Lothlorien very well, and I know you want to keep it as much of an Elven faction of beauty as possible, and because of that I will try to find a way in my proposal to not destroy the current faction as it is now, but just enrich it a little bit :).
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Fredius am 24. Jan 2017, 21:15
To celebrate the return of the forums I've found something creepy and interesting in the Middle-Earth universe, muhahaha!!

Remember when Gandalf said that "there are older and fouler things in the deep places of the world"? He is not only referring to the Balrog, but creatures without a name or race assigned to them: Nameless Things. According to Gandalf, these things are even older than Sauron himself, and have been digging the tunnels of the Misty Mountains far before the Dwarves or the Balrog did.

Zitat
Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day.
- Gandalf

Zitat
Some of these caves, too, go back in their beginnings to ages before the goblins, who only widened them and joined them up with passages, and the original owners are still in odd corners, slinking and nosing about.
- The Hobbit

Sadly, nobody knows how they look like, and how they even came to the world. They are a mystery comparable to Ungoliant, whose origins is unknown as well. So I hope you can still sleep after reading this ghehehe [ugly]....

Source:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Nameless_Things
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Nameless_Things
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Jan 2017, 22:03
1. Your coming to these shores is quite late (https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,33098.msg447256.html#msg447256), servant of Sauron and Morgoth  :D

2. It's true that Ungoliant's history is not explained well in the annals of Arda, but, as far as I always grasped, the customary interpretation of the lore tells us that she's a Maia. The fact that she was capable of conjuring such dreadful and anti-light/matter-like powers depends on very ghoulish circumstances...  :(
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Fredius am 24. Jan 2017, 22:12
Hmm never saw that, but hey, a wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to!  This rule applies to Black Numenorean wizards as well xD.

Ah well, the Nameless Things are theorised to be Maia as well, but I want the lore on these creatures to be like the history of how man learnt to milk a cow; dark and mysterious.

Also it seems that WETA made a concept art for them in the Two Towers artbook. I will try to search for it and post it here if I have any results.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Jan 2017, 22:54
Zitat
Your coming to us is as the footsteps of doom. You bring great evil here[...]

It's not that I don't like obscure tales from unknown times (I love them!), but I do believe that everything should be eventually comprehensible, at a minimal extent, at least. Therefore, whether it be Tolkien himself or customary interpretations deducted from speculations (a sort of common law), one ought always be able to recognise certain common aspects of the whole mythological corpus of the Professor: that is, recurrent themes or properties that help people understand things, some very clear boundaries (namely, the fact that only the Ainur and the Elves may live eternally in Aman) and main characteristics which tie everything together. So, what prima facie seems to be illogical and in opposition to prior events may be clarified (not wholly) by those said common traits. It's de facto the Zeitgeist of Arda.

For example, I read that some regard Ungoliant as an unknown creature (superior even to the Ainur) that had been dwelling in Arda before the very arrival of the Angels, or that she can be considered as the personification of the Void itself (something that would place her very close to Ilúvatar or even turn her in a sort of anti-God). That's why, albeit loving elements that are surrounded in an aura of pure mystery, it's also quite imperative that these elements be respectful of the most basic foundations/rules of Arda. But I agree with you, since mystery does play an important part too; and Tolkien sometimes contradicting himself just conveys this sense even more. Yet I find too excessive cases (as that interpretation of Ungoliant) very disruptive too.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 25. Jan 2017, 20:39
Hello everyone. I have a question about the Universe of Middle Earth. Here is a quote from Fellowship of the Ring.
Zitat
So the days slipped away, as each morning dawned bright and fair, and each evening followed cool and clear. But autumn was waning fast; slowly the golden light faded to pale silver, and the lingering leaves fell from the naked trees. A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east. The Hunter's Moon waxed round in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.
I was curious about the red star. One theory online about it was that it was a representation of Mars, the Bringer of War. However, are there any other explanations for what it is?
Also, the sun and moon are both controlled by Maiar, but what information is there about any other planets in Arda? Are there any references to planets in any of the texts?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Jan 2017, 23:20
According to the reasoning addressed above, about customary interpretations, I guess we don't have much information on something such as planets. I think that the only 'planet' is Arda itself (an inhabitable planet). Any other celestial creation can't be anything else but one of Varda's ancient stars, which are exactly meant to emanate light and energy.

Otherwise, as I pointed out in my previous comment, the very concept of other planets could be quite disruptive indeed: their physical shape should be the one that Arda was previously characterised by (before the fall of Númenor), and so they would resemble flat masses of matter.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 28. Feb 2017, 04:23
I debated internally where to put this for a while and in the end I decided to post it here.

This is my view on the age old question, what would have happened if Sauron had managed to regain the One Ring? It's sort halfway between debate and fan fiction which was why I was debating where to post it. I'm just gonna put my views on it out there and then I'd be more than happy to politely debate with people who have different opinions.

One thing that really defines how it all goes down is where and when the One Ring is regained. Do the Nazgul succeed in their assault atop Weathertop? Do they manage to capture it when Frodo goes through Osgiliath? During the Minas Morgul/Cirith Ungol period? Other times that I can't be bothered to list?

For this particular debate, I'm gonna pick the climax of the books and of the movies: the Battle at the Black Gate. And as to what trigger that bend in this timeline, I was thinking it could be something as simple as Sam deciding to kill Gollum during their encounter, at the entrance of Mount Doom. Therefore, Frodo claims the ring and escapes with all ten of his fingers but is later caught by the Nazgul who strike him down and bring the Ring to their master, and this is where it all begins. So, considering everything above we now resume a bullet point version of this fanfiction/theorizing.

-The Nazgul do briefly flee to get the Ring back and Gandalf gives his line: "Stand Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom!". However, the retrieval of the One is successful and the host of Mordor is once again filled with rage.

-The Captains of the West's army slowly falls before the unending hordes of Mordor, our heroes are the last few standing but are cut down eventually one by one.

-Gandalf is the last to fall, fighting to the very end until Sauron himself enters the battlefield and strikes him down.

-The Eagles are overpowered by the Nazgul who are now much strengthened by the Ring and the return of the King (Witch-King that is), who now has a body once again thanks to the power of the One.

-Sauron for a while rebuilds his armies and then sends them out once again against Minas Tirith, the city falls with ease it has no gate and his manned by only a few soldiers who lose all hope seeing the black army of Mordor pouring onto the fields of Pellenor.

-Faramir and Eowyn are the last to fall, still weak but fighting to the end defending the White Tree, who is then set ablaze once they are vanquished.

-Because of this theory's starting points, the battle of Dale has been won by the army of Sauron, the Evil Men swept through the defences of Erebor after a long battle and entered the great halls slaughtering all in their path. Then this army joins with the one sieging Mirkwood, tipping the scales in their favor. What can Thranduil do against such a vast horde? Lothlorien is safe for now but siege from all side and it's outer border has been burnt down

At this point it does get harder, there are many possibilities and outcomes as to what might happen next but I will try to do my best. As it stands, Men have suffered a terrible loss in the destruction of Minas Tirith and the Elves and Dwarves have lost the North but it will be less detailed since many factors can now influence how events happen.

-Considering the relative distance of everything, it is likely that Mordor's army will sweep through the remains of Gondor, the Nazgul crushing all hope in the heart of men and leading multiple assaults throughout Gondor.

-They then push toward Rohan, virtually undefended and burn it down to the ground, the peasants of Rohan are brave but there is nothing they can do against such vast hordes made up of all manner of creatures.

-Sauron has not been idle, breeding all sort of foul beasts in the pits of Barad Dur, enhanced with magic who now come to reinforce his army. (Nothing amazing, just stuff like smarter trolls, stronger orcs).

- Sauron now makes way for Lorien, but before he can reach it the Mordor host manage to breach the borders: Nenya has turned against its user, and while it is not enough to completely corrupt Galadriel, she can no longer use it to protect her realm. A last battle for Middle Earth starts all the forces of Good opposing Sauron in the hope that they might slow his advance enough.

-But the power of Mordor is too much, everyday fouler beasts emerge from the enemy ranks and the Nazgul are ever present, keeping the ground troops motivated (aka being more scary than the elves) and the sky empty of hope as their fell beasts seem to cover all of the stars. Every day do the free people fight, pushing back Mordor but every night Mordor attacks once again, using the cover of darkness to their advantage.

-The last of the creatures of Good pour in: Ents, Beorning and Eagles. The battle goes on for ages, Orcs fall by the thousands but more keep coming and whenever they manage to strike down a free folk it leaves an empty gap in the line. In addition, the victorious Evil Men now battle with zeal: they have seen the power of Mordor and it fills their heart with an unending will to battle.

- Elrond comes to reinforce Lorien, briefly tipping the scale in their favor. However, Sauron arrives just at this moment and goes straight for him. Elrond soon falls, followed by Celeborn. The Evil Host keeps pushing until there is nowhere to run, in the very heart of Caras Galadhon, Galadriel makes her final stand facing Sauron but without her Ring of power she is no match for a fully powered Sauron, she is struck down and Lorien falls.

-Sauron sweeps through the rest Middle Earth, killing Saruman, once he find him, for betraying him. He burns the Shire down and enslaves its people. Evil's victory is complete.

After that, it's even harder to think of what could possibly happen. Either the Valar abandon Middle Earth to its faith, staying safely in Valinor till Dagor Dagorath or they march out against Sauron, resulting in their easy victory. Or maybe, the events cause Dagor Dagorath to never happen and the Valar remain passive and Sauron gets to rule till the end of times. Who knows?

I'll be glad to fix any mistakes I might have made if anybody points them out to me. I'm impatient to hear thoughts about this if scenario. Hopefully, I triggered a least a couple of you which should lead to an interesting debate, all under the watchful eye of the great moderator that lives on this forum, an elf-admin, of terrible power.

EDIT: I've fixed the slight timeline issues I had, it does make it a lot less of a fair fight but that's just the most likely series of event in my eyes.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 28. Feb 2017, 09:48
Hmm, an interesting topic. I'm sure, I'll reply more in depth later, for now I'll be brief:
 - I think you made a couple of wrong starting points. As far as I remember the Easterlings lost at Erebor only after the Ring was destroyed and were sieging the mountain during the battle at the Black Gate. Thus Sauron's victory would have been even more crushing and considering...
 - Lothlorien's and Mirkwood's armies destroyed Dol Guldur after the the war was essentially over. Meaning, even his northern base of operation would have been intact. ;)

And then I think, Sauron would indeed rule for eternity. Actually, the reason for this thought is the more interesting one because it's not "'cause evil"! I guess, allowed the Valar to continuously return to Middle Earth and fix this mess, completely ruins the story for me, because then the stakes are basically non-existant and I'd really ask myself, why they do anything at all. Imagine Gandalf saying to Frodo: "Remember, he must never get the Ring! Otherwise Middle Earth is doomed forever... Nah, not forever... Probably a couple of years, then the Valars will show up and fix everything anyways... Meaning my work here is 100% pointless. Well, guess I'll do something else then!" Obviously that would never happen and it also misses 100% the tone of Middle Earth, but giving the good guys a chance to recover, after they basically did everything wrong, is slightly lame in my opinion. Now that's obviously just from a storytelling perspective.
However even from a historical perspective: Isn't Valinor removed from this world forever? As far as I remember that was basically the final result of Numenors destruction (funnily also Sauron's work!) thus I doubt the Valar could just walk Middle Earth again.

And as a last point: I think, you overestimate the importance of orcs in Mordor's ranks. Not to say, they weren't important, but them making up the entire army is a relic from the movies. In the books (you are obviously referring too since Frodo doesn't move to Osgiliath) that evil men make up for a strong part if not most part of Sauron's forces.


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 28. Feb 2017, 10:27
Damn, that's a pretty major mistake I made here. I was sure that I had double checked everything but yet you are indeed right, the forces of Rhun were defeated on the 25th March, that changes a lot of the story looks like I'm gonna have to make some big edits. I'll also sprinkle in some more evil men in there, I do my best to stick my the books but some of the minor details still escape me, thanks for pointing out the mistakes.

I'm looking forward to your more in depth thoughts.

EDIT: Done with the fixing, it seriously changes the story. I really need to pay more attention to dates.  :D
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Feb 2017, 11:03
How could we ever spend time with wisdom during our apprehensive wait for the patch, if not by debating crucial lore matters?  ;)

I really like the idea, Necro, and I think the gates of the LOTR section should remain well open to anything that deals with similar on-topic subjects. That's why I decided to merge the topic with our beloved lore corner. On the facts presented and in regards of the eventualities which you have come up with, I most entirely agree with the kernel of your conclusions, as it seems to be a very reasonable of an explanation. I just wonder whether, taking advantage of a hiatus of Sauron's final operations, Galadriel and Elrond would be instead keen on leading their people to the westernmost shores of Middle-earth, to depart with the last grey ships.

Concerning Valinor, I also share the same opinion of Melkor. In the sense that Aman had indeed been previously separated from Arda, and I would thus infer that it would consequently be physically impossible for the Valar (as well as for any host) to put foot again on mortal soil. We could probably view this physical reasoning as a physical parallelism of the Ainur's will not to mingle themselves with the destiny of Middle-earth, lest additional grave wounds result for the World. And I would also add that, had they been capable of intervening, they would have nonetheless opted for non-intervention: if you think about it, Sauron's desire for the whole dominion of mortal lands is quite different from the ancient perspective of having Melkor (the Vala) rule over all those territories, if we also take into account that the latter was very likely to long for complete destruction of the Valar's primordial creation. A logic that therefore contemplated annihilation or vast-scale marring, whereas Sauron was maybe more interested in domination/tyranny, since he couldn't even dispose of his past master's devices, servants and powers. So, at the end of the day, I guess the Lords of the West would have eventually accepted the prospect of Sauron gaining control of Middle-earth; an enemy, by the way, whom they could have wiped out very easily.

Henceforth, as you can see, Melkor (dear attendee of this forum), there is something we agree on. This is something that ought to be celebrated  xD

Hopefully, I triggered a least a couple of you which should lead to an interesting debate, all under the watchful eye of the great moderator that lives on this forum, an elf-admin, of terrible power.

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/4/3141/3140794/thumb_620x2000/Galadriel_Revora_4.JPG)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 28. Feb 2017, 17:53
I think Necro has a good idea of what would happen (it's almost as if he's planned this conquest before). A couple of questions:
 - Could Radagast have made a big difference? I guess he could've slowed Sauron down but I doubt he would've lasted long.
 - What would Sauron do about any elves and dwarves living in the east of Middle Earth?
 - What would Sauron have done with the fortresses he took (Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth, Erebor, Helm's Deep, Rivendell, Mithlond)? I'd imagine that most of Rohan would be burned down since they mainly have wooden buildings (from the film anyway) as well as Caras Galadhon. Isengard would be given the Mouth of Sauron. Would Sauron try to corrupt the rest (in a similar way to Minas Ithil, Cirith Ungol and the Black Gate) or would he try to destroy any trace of them?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 28. Feb 2017, 19:37
Zitat
- Could Radagast have made a big difference? I guess he could've slowed Sauron down but I doubt he would've lasted long.
I doubt, he'd have achieved anything. Radagast failed at his mission in his own way (basically stopped caring about the fate of Middle Earth and turned to animals or the wild), thus since even Gandalf the White is inferior to Sauron with the One, what match is Radagast to the power of Mordor?

Zitat
- What would Sauron have done with the fortresses he took (Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth, Erebor, Helm's Deep, Rivendell, Mithlond)?
I'm not sure if this applies to everyone of those places, but why not expand your base of operation? ;) In general, Sauron turned out to be pretty practical, and these fortresses often control their general vicinity: Minas Tirith basically controls the mid-point of the Anduin (considering he has access to Minas Morgul, Osgiliath and Cair Andros), Dol Amroth controls the fiefdoms of Gondor as well as giving him total control over the lower-part of the Anduin (again considering he has Umbar) AS WELL as grating him another entry point into Gondor (besides Cair Andros & Osgiliath).
Erebor is like the only fortress in the north of Middle Earth as well as the best place for a slave fortress for all the Dwarves and Elves of the north. I guess, the ressources are pretty rich, since the Dwarves chose to build their main kingdom over there. This also basically answers the fate of the dwarves and elves of the north (at least of Mirkwood).
Helm's Deep he might actually demolish, since it rivals Isengard's position and Isengard is the best fortress to rule over Rohan and Dunland, also giving access to Eriador. On the other hand, the Hornburg is incredibly usefull for him, since he has direct control over the mountains and the people of Rohan living there. (Remember the battles at the fords of Isen, it was mainly Isengard's strategic location that granted Saruman victory there.)
Rivendell and Mithlond he'd probably destroy. Sauron can rule northern Eriador from Fornost, Carn Dûm, the Etten-??? (what's their name in english?). Also, both are very holy places, he has no use for, also considering, Eriador is pretty empty and I'm not even sure if at least Mithlond is a real fortress. Actually, Isengard might even be enough, but since evil spirits still exist in the north, why not reestablish Angmar? He then basically sandwiches Eriador between Dunland under Isengard's control and Angmar. Possibly add Fornost and Weathertop and the north is secured, once their resistance is crushed. (Which shouldn't be strong to begin with: Saruman's men are still occupying half of the Shire and the Dunedain are all wiped out, since Sauron won at the Black Gate.)

Actually, I'd like to talk about the Lord of the Nine. Would Sauron be able to resurrect him? I mean, his body is destroyed, and he is still originally a human. It's not a fallen Ainu like Sauron who can form another dark body when he has access to the One.
However, it's still the master ring, so he might still be able to revive him OR (which I find more probable) create a new one what he should definitely be able to do, since he has the Master Ring. Actually, and I know this is just speculation, but why not give the ring to some of his most glorious human servants like the Mouth of Sauron?
Since they are all crazy for power anyways, that could very well happen. And I believe there could be some candidates, remember, the character of e.g. Gothmog is very unknown in the books, I doubt he'd turn out to be an orc. (Probably either a Nazgûl or another evil man. What do the linguists know about the origins of this name?)
I mean, don't get me wrong: Sauron not having access to his most deadliest servant is immaterial to his victory! It should only slow him down, although considering I absolutely ADORE the concept of the Nazgûl (in my opinion Tolkiens only great villains!), I'd be eager to see the Witchking in action while Sauron has got the One! xD

Now, the funny thing is, as much as I'd like to write something, I can't think of anything... The point is, Sauron with the Ring (considering all the power he has already collected in the WotR) is so much stronger than any opposing force, it's basically Mordor steamrolling over everything!
There might be some brave resistance, but after that Mordor's shadow would wipe this memory and embrace Middle Earth in darkness and desperation, Sauron's central theme. I mean, it's hard to remember, how brave your king or whatever fought if he a) is dead, b) desecrated and c) you're living in slavery, so don't stand there reasoning and get back to work you lazy maggot! ;) Some elves might end up lucky and make it to the Grey Havens, but after they are gone, it's Sauron for breakfast, lunch and dinner and nobody will be able to break his reign. So in a way, there is nothing to say really: It's gonna be first a slaughter and than just cold, dark nothingness untill either Middle Earth is a spoiled wasteland or Sauron reaches the industrial age and starts launching nuclear rockets at Valinor^^ ;)

You know what, the last sentance was obviously a joke, but coming to think about it, it bears in interesting development:
Following the books, Mordor is the most modern faction in the WotR, having access to gunpowder / mines (since they blow up parts of the Rammas in the siege of MT), and having developt sort of an industry in Gorgoroth. This theme is mostly known for Isengard, because that's their movie element and for the sake of uniqueness, it can't be Mordor's theme to. Yet, in the books, Saruman's only achievement is him creating a mix between orcs and humans and giving it a fancy name, while most of his inventions are actually copied from Mordor / Sauron.
What makes this interesting to me, is obviously the question: How much would Sauron f*** up the mystic realm of Middle Earth using the spoiled part of fairly modern technology after achieving total victory? I mean, he has all tools to his disposal, and while not really needing them anymore, his greed and malice might make him use these devices just to collect more power for powers sake.
Seriously, considering the basic theme of Tolkien's good guys is restoring lost glory, the themes of evil differ quite a lot between Morgoth whose theme is corruption and spoiling of good works (Melkor has still a creative element for some parts) while Sauron's theme also reaches into the theme of advances in weaponry and surpassing his master. His works on trolls (Olog-Hai) as well as on the big uruks of Mordor show a lot of refinement -yet not in the creative sense of good (crafting beautiful objects mostly without an actual reason), but rather in the spirit of perfecting weapons and causing more death & destruction. On that note, Middle Earth might end up as a wasteland for all of Sauron's twisted inventions.

Zitat
Henceforth, as you can see, Melkor (dear attendee of this forum), there is something we agree on. This is something that ought to be celebrated  xD
Run! Everybody run! The end of the world is approaching! :D


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Feb 2017, 23:16
I think Necro has a good idea of what would happen (it's almost as if he's planned this conquest before). A couple of questions:
 - Could Radagast have made a big difference? I guess he could've slowed Sauron down but I doubt he would've lasted long.
 - What would Sauron do about any elves and dwarves living in the east of Middle Earth?
 - What would Sauron have done with the fortresses he took (Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth, Erebor, Helm's Deep, Rivendell, Mithlond)? I'd imagine that most of Rohan would be burned down since they mainly have wooden buildings (from the film anyway) as well as Caras Galadhon. Isengard would be given the Mouth of Sauron. Would Sauron try to corrupt the rest (in a similar way to Minas Ithil, Cirith Ungol and the Black Gate) or would he try to destroy any trace of them?

1. I doubt Radagast could have posed a very worrying threat to Sauron. The Istar had already forgotten the purpose of his mission when the War of the Ring broke out. We can therefore assume he would have had nearly all his powers severely diminished by that time (the resurgence of Sauron).

2. Men often fell prey of his devices and deceits, resulting in them being easily enslaved and ultimately tamed. On the other hand, I don't think the Dark Lord would reserve the same 'courteous' treatment to Elves and Dwarves, given the endurance of these races against magic and the Evil in general. I would thus say that he would be likely to opt for a complete extermination of such people (and it sounds really terrible!).

3. That's a really interesting topic: would Sauron have decided to lay waste to anything made by his opponents, or would he have instead twisted those creations and corrupted their inner essence? Just to connect with the previous point about his cruelty towards Elves and Dwarves, I think he would have annihilated all of their memories, whereas the mighty craftsmanship of Men would have been the sole to serve the new master in a new (marred) fashion: it's an aspect that symbolises the will of Sauron to rule over all Men, as their only king (the title he was known as in the Second Age, when this very boastful act of his caused the wrath of the last king of Númenor).
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 2. Mär 2017, 12:20
About Sauron and the conquered fortress:
In my opinion, he would most likely destroy everything elf related: Grey Havens, Rivendell, Lothlorien, ect... However, Sauron may be evil but he is not dumb (apart from that whole not having a door on Mount Doom), he would use the mines of the Dwarves to dig for precious materials which would have allowed him to keep his war machine going. He might have also moved the library of Rivendell for personal use although I think this one is less likely.

DieWalkure is probably right, it is more likely that the elves would make their way for the Grey Havens hastily as opposed to sending their people into a hopeless war. I wonder if the elves of Lorien would be able to make their way there safely or if the trip would be a constant battle against all foul things that have felt Sauron's power in addition with the Mordor host tailing them closely.

Looking back at all the debate that's been going on, it has now become much clearer to me why they feared him finding the One Ring. The war was already gong pretty badly for the Free People but it seems regaining the one would be catastrophic, making the rest of the war completely one side with very little challenge. Just like Melkor said, basically Mordor steamrolling everything.

I'd be interesting to know whether or not once the war is over whether or not Sauron would have followed a path similar to this world's technological advancements. Eventually discovering things like electricity, nuclear power, ...
Zitat
I think Necro has a good idea of what would happen (it's almost as if he's planned this conquest before).
I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired th... I mean what, what now?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 2. Mär 2017, 18:25
Would the elves of Lorien or Mirkwood even be able to go to the Undying Lands or would it just be the last Noldor who'd leave?

There are a couple of other factors that may hasten or slow down Sauron's victory.
Firstly, there are the dragons of the Withered Heath. They may not have been as powerful as Smaug but they could've still done massive damage (especially if Sauron tempted them with dwarven realms).

There is also Glorfindel. In the First Age , he was able to fight off a balrog and hold off Morgoth's armies long enough for Gondolin's survivors to escape. In the Third age, he frightened the Witch King just by being there and then sent the Nazgul fleeing into Elrond's flood. How much damage do you think he could've done to Sauron's forces? Would he have sacrificed himself to let the others escape Middle Earth?

Concerning Sauron's rule over Middle Earth:
How do you think he would've treated the Evil Men that fought for him? In the First Age, Morgoth just mistreated any Easterlings who followed him. Do you think Sauron would've done the same?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 2. Mär 2017, 19:42
Zitat
There is also Glorfindel. In the First Age , he was able to fight off a balrog and hold off Morgoth's armies long enough for Gondolin's survivors to escape. In the Third age, he frightened the Witch King just by being there and then sent the Nazgul fleeing into Elrond's flood. How much damage do you think he could've done to Sauron's forces? Would he have sacrificed himself to let the others escape Middle Earth?
Well, that is taken a lot out of context: First of all, eventhough it isn't impossible, be don't know for certain if Glorfindel = Glorfindel. That obviously only affects him dealing with a balrog, but still -that effects him dealing with a balrog. xD And in my version of the story (The Book of Lost Tales), he did only fight the balrog not him and Angband's forces. That's a difference.
Him dealing with the Nazgûl is another topic. Not to take anything away from Glorfindel, but the Witchking had already lost the battle, the war and his realm. He did eventually ran off, but you can hardly ignore the surroundings. It wasn't him running away too frightened to fight, but him choosing to leave (after his work was done aka Arnor destroyed). Also, didn't he vanish laughing? I'm almost certain, he did.
Next, at the fords of Bruinen, the Witchking was in the middle of the fords when the flood came, so he basically frightened the horses. BTW, supported by Aragorn & the hobbits using torches! Thus, he is clearly a damn-powerfull elven lord (who did chase some Nazgûl away by himself earlier at the bridge (offscreen)), but I think you make him stronger than he is.
Also, when talking about the Nine, it's important to grasp the concept of how much of their strength is revealed. That's especially important for their leader; he wasn't yet allowed to show his true power to the West. (No idea, why, btw. I mean, he was chasing the One Ring! :D)

Concerning the dragons: Yes, Sauron would eventually try to bind them to his will, as Morgoth did or at least control them using their greed. I guess, that would take a while since they live very far away. Gondor, Rohan and the Erebor would have fallen by then, I'd guess, so essentially they'd end up as overkill.

Zitat
How do you think he would've treated the Evil Men that fought for him? In the First Age, Morgoth just mistreated any Easterlings who followed him. Do you think Sauron would've done the same?
I think, Sauron's relation to the easterlings is quite different from Morgoth's. The latter used them exclusively as a tool to win the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and then had no use for them anymore. Giving them nothing for it was just him being the devil of Arda.
Meanwhile, Sauron seems to enjoy, being their leader and thus has a much deeper relation to them and men in general. Remember, they glorified him as a god. Thus, I expect Sauron to further use them as his battle thralls, ultimately being not particularly evil towards them. (Apart from the general mess his unbroken rule would have caused in Middle Earth over time.) But he was certainly not at all that focussed on his own creations as Morgoth, namely because Sauron did nearly exclusively refine them and not create them from scratch (or at least from... volunteers [ugly]).

Zitat
I'd be interesting to know whether or not once the war is over whether or not Sauron would have followed a path similar to this world's technological advancements. Eventually discovering things like electricity, nuclear power, ...
I think, I just realized something... Something very grave... Considering Tolkien plans his world to eventually become ours... Since we have all of this, I'm afraid but Sauron won as you can clearly deduce from our surroundings. Well... I guess, you're our true leader now, Necro. :P


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: "Ettenmoors". How could I forget that?!
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 2. Mär 2017, 22:03
Hmm, I guess I did overestimate Glorfindel. Still, anyone who could scare the Nazgul would probably be a small help in a total invasion.
Zitat
Also, when talking about the Nine, it's important to grasp the concept of how much of their strength is revealed. That's especially important for their leader; he wasn't yet allowed to show his true power to the West. (No idea, why, btw. I mean, he was chasing the One Ring! )
This is interesting now I think about it. Sauron wanted the Nazgul to be secretive to hid their true purpose and avoid outside intervention. However, what would have happened if the Nazgul had been able to show their true power when searching for the One Ring? I'd imagine that there would be a much bigger struggle in the North with the Dunedain and any elves that were sent from Rivendell. Maybe the Nazgul would've rallied the orcs of the Misty Mountains, the Barrow Wights and any other evil creatures they could find. It would've been interesting to see this although I doubt it would've ever happened.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Mär 2017, 18:13
As an additional insight, since I read that Necro wondered whether the Dagor Dagorath itself would eventually take place at the end of time, the Silmarillion and other sources (of which I have knowledge only thanks to various summaries I found here and there) tell us precisely that the World shall ultimately end, one way or the other. Although details and technicalities are not provided, we know that this apocalyptic fate is an inexorable of a conclusion; but it would be wrong to view that as the usual conflagration scenario, because it's also a tale of rebirth and catharsis. Catharsis itself, as a name, conveys the core of this event's importance in a perfect way: the name derives from Ancient Greek and indicates a process of purification, which is very likely to have been accomplished via a daunting and suffered path of agony.

In our context, the battle of the battles is to occur and throw into the greatest chaos the mightiest of both sides. Albeit the aftermath, the Good shall prevail. Nevertheless, Arda will be broken and the Silmarils finally retrieved. The Two Trees shall be given new life and, once the Pelóri are levelled, shall bring light to every land of the firmament. Therefore, it's legitimately presumable that Sauron will never gain control of Middle-earth in perpetuity, or for a great amount of time in which he might succeed in developing such 'achievements'. That's why it would be quite counterproductive and meaningless if the Valar opted to wage war against him; a kind of waste of time (even with the sincerest intentions). Manwë and Varda already know how things are to unfold themselves, in the latest hour. I guess we could also infer that, the more the fate of the World worsens, the quicker the final catharsis approaches.

Oh, I forgot to mention, Melkor shall be obliterated once and for all in the conflict. This is something I needed to remind you of. Whether it be the Free People triumphing or Sauron's tyranny establishing itself, the Good will eventually prevail. I'm absolutely aware of the one-sided essence of Arda's tale, but that's quite the ordinary procedure in Tolkien's vision  :P
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Chrishedges am 18. Mär 2017, 16:09
Hey all, I'm just wondering about what people opinions are on when the war of the ring officially started, would you say when frodo left rivendell or perhaps the battle of helms deep, maybe even when sauron first sent the nazgul after the ring? Let me know what you guys think :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Mär 2017, 17:12
Aren't there precise indications of the exact course of the War of the Ring, provided by the canonical sources? Anyway, yours is a very interesting question  :)

Well, one could wonder whether the general prospect of a total war for the One Ring was envisaged by Sauron long time before, when he took possession of and infested the ruined Dol Guldur, for example. But in a strict factual perspective, I guess a lot depends on the role you want Mordor to be given: if, in fact, you deem the whole war as the conflict and military manoeuvres of Sauron's own forces against the Free People, then it could be legitimate to infer that the War of the Ring started as soon as the implacable military machine of Mordor started to wage pervasive operations (after Isengard was vanquished). Otherwise, were you to consider the general strife of the Good against any single pawn of the Evil, I would say that the war broke out when Sauron was informed that the One Ring had been brought to the Shire.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Chrishedges am 19. Mär 2017, 02:00
Yeah that's exactly where I'm coming from there are so many points at which you can say the war of the ring began but to define one moment as the start I think is impossible I'd like to add to the list of possible starts being when the white counsel banished sauron from dol guldur as that would be the first direct conflict with sauron in the third age (correct me if I'm wrong) as that was imo the start of the war between mordor and the free peoples in the third age and whether we define the whole war as the war of the ring or just when the ring was revealed to sauron, I know in the books the period between the events of the hobbit and Lotr is called the watchful peace but it was hardly peaceful in the east was it?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 19. Mär 2017, 11:50
You're right. The banishment of Sauron was the first counter-attack of the Free People, even though only the Wise were involved and the deed itself didn't lead to meaningful results, albeit forcing him to unveil his schemes and flee to Mordor (and we know that his 'retreat' was a move he had been planning for long time).

The East of Middle-earth has always been a quite turbulent of a scenario, it's true. I don't know if all the skirmishes that took place between Gondor and the Evil Men were a design of Sauron himself (I think they acted in a quite loose context), but they certainly didn't contribute to render the whole environment in the South more pacific. Moreover, the Watchful Peace is actually a four-century period that started after Gandalf entered Dol Guldur for the first time; that was almost a millennium before the events of LOTR. This very period had already ended with the second return of Sauron in that ruined fortress (about 500 years before the quest of Thorin and his company).
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 19. Mär 2017, 12:37
I'm not really sure where else to put this, but I guess the current discussions on Sauron in the Lore Corner would be a good start. These articles have a pretty good description of Sauron's thoughts and strategies during the Second and Third Ages. Hopefully, they will be interesting for others to read.

http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2012/11/12/the-sauron-strategies-footsteps-into-failure/

http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2012/11/19/the-sauron-strategies-one-war-to-win-them-all-except/
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Chrishedges am 19. Mär 2017, 20:25
Thank you for clearing up the watchful peace for me I didn't quite get the dates I didn't realise Gandalf visited before was that the time he found thrain in the dungeon and got the map and key for erebor? Or did he visit a few times?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 19. Mär 2017, 22:33
Yes, Gandalf does visit Dol Guldur in 2850 T.A., where he had confirmation that Sauron was indeed returned and where he was given the key of the Lonely Mountain. But Gandalf had already visited that ruined fortress, as I wrote; it was in 2063 T.A. Sauron had started gathering shadows in Mirkwood since 1000 T.A. (as I recall) and Gandalf had been sent there for an inquiry about such suspicious unrest along those lands. Sauron didn't have the power to confront the Istar though, and so he fled to the East to avoid having his true identity unveiled.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Chrishedges am 20. Mär 2017, 02:51
Ahh thank you for clarifying:), certainly can't beat a good discussion on lotr  xD
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 20. Mär 2017, 14:39
You're welcome  :)

It's then consequential that the information provided by AUJ is flawed and incorrect, even if that choice was legitimately due to adaptation needs. Elrond speaking about the period of watchful peace they had been living until that moment (the arrival of Thorin in the film) thus contradicts the lore. As I wrote, though, the generalities of the Hobbit trilogy's plot are well acceptable in those particular circumstances.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 8. Okt 2017, 18:06
I feel like I've just realised something about the LOTR books/films.

Sauron lost the ring when Isildur cut his finger off. Isildur claimed the ring. He later died and fell into water where his body was never found.
Frodo lost the ring when Gollum bit his finger off. Gollum claimed the ring. He later died and fell into fire where his body was destroyed.
In both cases, the original owner had their finger severed while the new owner died in someway due to the ring (Gollum was too busy celebrating that he had it, while the Ring left Isildur allowing him to be shot).

Another connection was that Isildur went into the river (water) in his death and was never seen again. Boromir's funeral involved him being cast into the river on a boat and he was never seen again (except in a dream by Faramir). Frodo and Bilbo left the lands of Mortals by crossing the sea (water) and were never seen by mortals again. Galadriel (the elf who desired the ring the most) is known for having Nenya, the Ring of Water.

What do you think about the existence of these links between the ring bearers and those who desired the ring?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Okt 2017, 02:33
What to say, Tolkien's writings are the realm of references and linkages of the most diverse nature! Think about how Galadriel ends up mirroring the grand deeds of Lúthien in the First Age, destroying and cleansing what had thitherto been a stronghold in Sauron's government. Or the numerous connections of Elrond's legendary ancestry: with the union of Arwen and Aragorn, the bloodline of the Two Twins is finally reunited (Elrond's kin and the one of Elros, from whom the lore of the Five-pointed Island had beginning). Set aside what could seem to be a sort of incest, albeit the two lines of descent being divided by millennia and by many events which had in the meantime befallen, it's really a very intricate of a scheme to conceive. Fact reinforced by Arwen and Aragorn treading the exact same path of Beren and Lúthien: the love between the immortal and mortal races. Beside that, one would find a plethora of other similar cases. You need only dig and delve into the broad lore...

Natural Elements, from their part, are ever-pivotal themes to portray. This happens in most fantasy and mythical tales of the old literature, from which Tolkien has taken inspiration. Water, in particular, serves different purposes: it is seldom tied to the Evil or to its devices (as Galadriel would say), whereas it is often related to purity and cleanliness. Under a more neutral perspective, water has simply a central part in any happening of Middle-earth. Rivers are given prominence in the narration and the sea made the fortunes of realms as Gondor or the empire of Númenor itself. The sundering seas divide also continental lands (domain of sad death for mortals and grief) from the shires in which naught decays and all ever-green stays. Sea itself was of fundamental interest in the Elder Times and in the Second Age as well; in the former was symbol of nostalgia for the West and grievous exile, and in the latter oceans became the medium via which Númenor could propagate its might.

The smartest reference to elements I have in mind is the ultimate fate of the Three Jewels. One fell in the fires of the earth (Earth), the other was thrown in the broad sea (Water) and the last found in the Mariner the noblest keeper, voyaging eternally throughout the infinite vastness of Arda's skies (Air) and enlightening the halls of Eä as a star of hope.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 11. Jan 2018, 18:44
Some speculations about a menacing and very mysterious enemy in the lore. Or, better, is he really an enemy in the most scholastic sense? A servant of the Evil?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=vV3opfvFDpU
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 11. Jan 2018, 19:45
The video mentions how the Watcher seems to be attracted to Frodo. There is a connection to the Orc Captain in Moria who seemed to go straight for Frodo (even knocking Boromir out of the way to get to him) and potentially with the Balrog (who hadn't shown much activity for years but woke to attack the Fellowship).

It's interesting to consider something in this whole scenario. The Misty Mountains were raised by Morgoth to impede the Riding of Orome. Over the Three Ages, Orcs swarm over the mountains and also impede traversal over the land. Caradhras is portrayed as sentient entity that also impedes all traversal over the mountains. If you then add the fact that the Balrog lived in Moria, the Watchers (and other Nameless Things) lived around the mountains, both Angmar and Isengard were at the North and South of the mountain range respectively, and the two main realms of the "good" people here (Khazad Dum and Eregion) were destroyed, you can definitely see a connection.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 20. Jan 2018, 13:10
I had already heard about those two interesting coincidences, if we may call them that. My personal opinion rests with the assumption that the novel, beside being a novel in itself and resembling also a chivalric romance of high culture (there were tons of them in Middle Age and the majority were set in fantastic scenarios), has also been inspired by the most common and canonical tales, in which correlations and coincidences (wanted or not) play a huge role. As for the true meaning of magic in Arda, I feel we will always be bound to find inexplicable references that the sole author could be able to unveil; but this is the greatest aspect of fairytales, in a way. Some riddles are very evocative just for the fact of remaining riddles.

You bring well-thought reasonings to your arguments. The Misty Mountains have seldom dwelt in the memory of the Good as peaks of good fortune and prosperous fate; in your words, they came into existence through violence and destruction, meant to fulfil a very wicked task. No wonder that time made it so that they would later be conquered by legions of the foulest kind, offering shelter to unknown beings. I'm generally very cautious about linking the Nameless Creatures to the Evil itself, though. The thing is, these creatures are so mysterious and arcane that they do not probably serve anyone else but themselves. They're so uncanny and secretive, completely wild and untameable, representing a lethal danger for both Good and Evil. I myself see some akin traits with the independent characterisation of Ungoliant, despite her being a Maia and having been corrupted by Melkor at the ancestral beginning of Eä. The Nameless Creatures seem instead to be a product of that unpredictable and fortuitous case over which neither Melkor nor the Valar have power. Fact that makes me very much unique, I think. However, as you said, should they ever act or sort of partake in the dispute between the two sides, they would be to hinder the Good and not avail its quest.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Jan 2018, 16:41
It seems to be the proper day to let this debate have beginning. I had gone through some speculations about the topic, somewhere deep in the Internet, but I don't think we have ever discussed this before, on Modding Union. Hence, let the games begin and may our thoughts be of great avail for the common scope.

Taking into account that Tauriel represents the lack of wisdom and knowledge of the world that High Elves instead possess, being them the heirs of a glorious legacy or having experienced those ancient ages themselves, contrary to the lore of the Woodland Elves, and since her beloved Dwarf departed in grievous circumstances (sorry for all these subordinate clauses, but I've always been so since the dawn of times): do you think that she has eventually elected the path beyond the seas of Arda, heading to the immortal shores of Aman?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Eandril am 27. Jan 2018, 16:51
I don't consider Tauriel in any way canon, but since Tolkien stated (or at least implied) that every single elf would sometime leave Middle-Earth and Arda and sail to Aman, we can safely assume that Tauriel (if she had existed) would eventually have done the same. I really don't think there is much to discuss on this topic.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Jan 2018, 17:04
Thank for your opinion. From my part, given the known contradictions or obscurity in Tolkien's passages, especially while dealing with a fictional character that somehow follows some canonical categories (the lore of the Elves of the woods), I do think there could be a couple of interesting themes out there to examine.

Namely, just to put more flesh on the bones of the topic, are really all Elves to depart from the mortal world, at some point? As far as I know, there are Elves who never wished or longed for the journey to Valinor, due to their profound love for Middle-earth; this was also during the Years of the Trees, at the apex of the Blessed Realm's splendour. Also, we know that the love of the Elves towards both their craft or dwellings is, in Galadriel's words, as deep as the abysses of the ocean. So, being Tauriel part of the family of Wood-elves (the 'Elves of Twilight', if I recall correctly) there might be the possibility of her deciding to linger in a world which she's deeply attached to, although the fate for such Elves is one of fading and slowly waning as time passes. This is probably the saddest scenario, yet plausible, I daresay.

Nevertheless, I too rejoice at the idea of her embracing her true fate and finding proper shelter in the realm of the Valar, in which the memory of love does not die nor wither.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 27. Jan 2018, 17:17
I think that she had reasons for either staying or leaving. Her people, unlike most of the Elves, seem to have stayed on Middle-Earth for long after the War of the Ring and the beginning of the Fourth Age, so it is possible that she decided to stay, along with the love of Middle-Earth that she had. However, others such as Legolas (who she was attached to in a way) left, and as Kíli was dead (even though I dislike the love triangle, that factors into her character), that could have been a factor to make her take the path of the other elves and leave Middle-Earth.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 28. Jan 2018, 11:59
If we think about what Mirkwood was like as a whole, Oropher tried to stay away from the Noldor and the rest of the World. It is likely that Thranduil was similar as he was king of the Wood Elves(without consideration of the Noldor). It it then likely that neither Oropher or Thranduil would've thought of the Valar in the same way as the Noldor and so this mentality would've spread to the rest of Mirkwood. This is all speculation though.

The problem with this is that Legolas went to the Undying Lands. However, this may be because of the death of Aragorn and the old age of Gimli. After this, Middle Earth may not have held any appeal for Legolas.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Jan 2018, 17:42
I would exactly focus on this known isolationist motive which pervades the lore of Mirkwood, even prior to the moving of the king's palace to the northernmost ends of the forest, after the poisoning of the woods by the action of the then-mysterious Necromancer. So, we can really infer how these Elves had always desired to distance themselves from their nobler related kind; their indifference towards Valinor might instead be a bit more atavistic of a trait of their character. It all began when the forefathers of Woodland Elves both refused the invitation of the West or stopped during the journey, bewildered and bewitched by the wonders of Middle-earth. Thus, it is no mystery that most of them are very likely to linger in a decaying world than embarking on the voyage to the immortal shores.

Regardless of such reasoning, though, I agree that personal happenings or sorrowful events (like the death of a beloved one) could also stir within those Elves the longing for peace and relief, for, albeit a fraction of them being much attached to Arda, grief and desolation affect all Immortals equally. This is the destiny of corruption that Arda is bound to suffer, after all. An inexorable fate.

Besides, since we've been able to gather very interesting arguments and explore significant topics of the lore, I think that Tauriel could be a more well-written character than one might think at a first glance, despite her flaws ;)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 28. Jan 2018, 18:55
You mentioned personal happenings or sorrowful events. While Legolas is one example, another would be Celebrian. Although related to the Noldor (as daughter of Galadriel and wife of Elrond) she never saw the Undying Lands and lived among the Silvan elves for a lot of her life. However, after her treatment by the orcs and recovery, she decided to leave Middle Earth due to not being fully healed in mind/soul and not wanting to stay in Middle Earth any more.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Jan 2018, 19:35
That's also a valid example. One of the imperative laws of Arda goes by the founding assumption that the Elves, the Firstborns, shall live as long as the very world does, not suffering the plagues of illness nor being destined to age and wither; yet, time passes for every living creature and tends to become a burden on the shoulders of immortal beings. Specifically, should the earth (where the Elves are meant to dwell in eternity) be marred and wounded, grief is to temper with such immortal lifespan and have direct effects on Elves themselves: pain, toil or desperation can lead immortal beings to a slow fading unto the moment of definitive departure (death), or they can make an immortal heart so much disheartened and weary, so that the journey beyond the Sea becomes the ultimate solution.

All in all, Elves' immortality is quite more elaborate than the common idea of never-ending life. Although they're gifted an eternal existence, they still differ from the Ainur and mortal events may too turn out to be as impactful for them as they are for Men.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 2. Feb 2018, 23:31
Speaking about the renowned journey to the West, I thought about another related topic to discuss: in your opinion, was Radagast the Brown eventually granted the pardon of the Valar and so the permission to come back to the Blessed Realm?

I've always known that the wizard had begun in time to forget about his mission, busy with the company of animals and secluded from the outer world, at the point of failing to achieve the task he was originally appointed to. It's therefore very logical to suppose that he was subsequently forbidden to pass across the sea and to have his full powers as Maia back. But all of this is what I could find on the matter so far, and I don't personally remember if Tolkien has left some kind of revealing hints about it.

I sincerely believe (I like to believe), that Radagast was finally allowed among the people of Aman, in the end. Never has he been author of evil mischief during his entire permanence in Middle-earth; it's quite the other way round, as he did contribute to help the Good via minor acts, yet significant (he sent the Eagles to Isengard and in front of the Black Gate too). It might be legitimate to speculate that, at an unspecified moment during the Fourth Age, the Istar may have taken the route to the Undying Lands through the only two possible ways at his disposal: either aboard a ship or going across the horizon on an Eagle. In both cases, he would have surely deserved such a merry ending.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 3. Feb 2018, 02:00
Speaking about the renowned journey to the West, I thought about another related topic to discuss: in your opinion, was Radagast the Brown eventually granted the pardon of the Valar and so the permission to come back to the Blessed Realm?

I've always known that the wizard had begun in time to forget about his mission, busy with the company of animals and secluded from the outer world, at the point of failing to achieve the task he was originally appointed to. It's therefore very logical to suppose that he was subsequently forbidden to pass across the sea and to have his full powers as Maia back. But all of this is what I could find on the matter so far, and I don't personally remember if Tolkien has left some kind of revealing hints about it.

I sincerely believe (I like to believe), that Radagast was finally allowed among the people of Aman, in the end. Never has he been author of evil mischief during his entire permanence in Middle-earth; it's quite the other way round, as he did contribute to help the Good via minor acts, yet significant (he sent the Eagles to Isengard and in front of the Black Gate too). It might be legitimate to speculate that, at an unspecified moment during the Fourth Age, the Istar may have taken the route to the Undying Lands through the only two possible ways at his disposal: either aboard a ship or going across the horizon on an Eagle. In both cases, he would have surely deserved such a merry ending.

I definely share you vision Walküre. Radagast did nothing bad to be banned from the final returns to the sacred lands. He simply lost his path, yet helping in some occasions as you said.

It is interesting, to remain in theme, the death of Saruman as described in the lore. In the moment he dies, his spirit initially turns into the west , almost as if his soul was accepted anyway (despite what he did) in the hall of mandos, but then a cold wind coming from west blown his spirit away. I like very much that passage of the book :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 3. Feb 2018, 12:24
“And as the captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.”

"To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing. "

Interesting how the descriptions of both Sauron and Saruman in their final moments are so similar.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Feb 2018, 16:35
No wonder that he came up with a strong analogy between the two characters: in spite of the differences, they were both counted among the Angels and betrayed their mission in the worst manner possible, inflicting additional agony to the already-marred Arda, hindering the Good in any way (Sauron had been tormenting the lore of Middle-earth since the Elder Days). Thus, their ultimate fate is the gravest which could befall for the Ainur: being violently deprived of your own physical body and undergoing a destiny of eternal misery as a wandering phantom, without rest or relief.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Adamin am 3. Dez 2020, 23:14
Those are some amazing thought experiments here! It's really interesting to read your comments, even though I'm a litte late to the party 😁

Some things I'd like to add for whoever might also still enjoy to read these old threads:



I totally agree to your conclusions about Tauriel, mainly because of the examples of Legolas and Celebrian as well. Just as a sidenote, Walküre said correctly that Elves are bound to the material world forever, but contrary to his statement this does not end with their death. They are sent to Mandos, where they are healed and granted a new physical body and if they wish can return to Valinor and reunite with their kin. So the Elves do not depart the world upon their death. This is specifically defined as the Destiny of Men, so this is an important uniqueness between the two.



in your opinion, was Radagast the Brown eventually granted the pardon of the Valar and so the permission to come back to the Blessed Realm?

I wonder why he shouldn't have the permission to return to Valinor? He was sent on a mission to fight against Sauron of course but I don't see any evidence that this was paired with a kind of banishment. And even if so, then it shouldn't matter any more after Saurons defeat.

I would rather question if Radagast would even want to return, seeing as he seemed to be very concerned with all wildlife in middle-earth. He would have had to abandon them, which does not sit well with his remaining characterization 🤓
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Dez 2020, 00:21
There are a hundred ways I could react to your post, and, since my replies are, in fact, multiple, let us go in order:

1. First of all: ADAMIN! Welcome back! Long time no see, indeed! I confess I thought I would never have the pleasure to see you again. I’m glad to realise how wrong that supposition was. If this is your personal Christmas gift for us, I’ll accept it without any questioning ;)

2. Thank you! I’m the happiest, if our stream of never-ending lore discussions managed to enthral you once more. Unfortunately, the thread has been suffering from a prolonged state of inactivity until now. It would lighten my heart to breathe a little bit of life in here, as it once used to be.

3. Well, I presume it’s time I took my teacher’s red pen in my hands and resumed the conversation, too.

Zitat
They are sent to Mandos, where they are healed and granted a new physical body and if they wish can return to Valinor and reunite with their kin. So the Elves do not depart the world upon their death. This is specifically defined as the Destiny of Men, so this is an important uniqueness between the two.

Yes, that’s the fate that’s been assigned to the Elven race. I don’t quite recall having ever stated something which contradicted it. Some of the words I’m used to employing are maybe to blame: with ‘material world’, in its broadest sense, I often mean the material universe itself, where matter exists and whose laws govern it. Therefore, I refer to the realm of physical being, as opposed to the timeless and eternal dimension in which Eru has dwelling. Sometimes, however, with ‘world’ I more narrowly indicate Middle-earth and all the lands belonging to mortal territories, in opposition with the Undying Realms.
I reckon it’s seldom not so consistent a terminology :P

One big fascinating aspect of the Elves’ immortality is that it doesn’t really suit the common definition attached to the name. Perhaps, it would be more accurate to view it as extreme longevity, since their lives are inherently tied to Arda, and they shall live as long as the world does. Needless to say, Elves do encounter grief, very slow ageing, and, in the saddest case, physical death (either violent or caused by insurmountable distress), with the only difference being, in your words, that their souls are later gathered in Mandos, and, after a time and subject to there being the proper will to be revived, they are embodied again and granted the possibility of a happy existence in Aman. Nonetheless, time will always affect them at various degrees, with the response of each being dependent on the specific Elf and the happenings he or she came to endure (from the ever-young Galadriel, born under the majesty of the Two Trees, to the stern appearance of Círdan, who’s much older than her, spent his whole life in Middle-earth, and bears more evident traces of wear and fatigue).

Aside from the mentioned facts, it surely gets to be considered as immortality by the standards of common Men, who mainly associate their being immortal with the capability to resist death from old age. In other words, they’re all different nuances and angles from which to look at canons. The splendour of these books, in brief :)
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: ThomasDiSantare am 25. Jan 2021, 19:04
What do you think of the hero Tom Bombadil? And why wasn't he in the movie?
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Gnomi am 27. Jan 2021, 19:32
I think he is a great and funny character, but I can compeltely understand that he is not in the movies.
You don't have limitless time and the story does not change without Tom Bombadil. Also it will get really irritating for the viewers, if a new character gets introduced (like Tom or Glorfindel), but they are never shown again after 5 minutes.
If it was a tv-series and not only 3 movies, he could have gotten a whole episode (which would have been great). But there was just no time for him in the movies.
Titel: Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Beitrag von: Herumor am 13. Aug 2021, 01:40
Zitat
You don't have limitless time and the story does not change without Tom Bombadil. Also it will get really irritating for the viewers, if a new character gets introduced (like Tom or Glorfindel), but they are never shown again after 5 minutes.

Glorfindel was replaced by Arwen because they wanted Liv Tyler to have mor screentime tho :D