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[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Lothlorien Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: TiberiusOgden am 14. Jul 2015, 16:34

Titel: Galadriel
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 14. Jul 2015, 16:34
ANCIENT MIGHT OF GALADRIEL by Walküre

Ok, after your very precious contributions, I decided to refine the whole concept a bit. The general guidelines and premises will nonetheless remain the same though; that is, the core conceptual arguments and lore structure that justify the very existence of this feature in the game.

ANCIENT MIGHT OF GALADRIEL

The heart of the concept

Zitat
My concept is mainly fashioned on what we see in BOTFA, during the banishment of Sauron. A controversial interpretation that both received praises for being innovative and a lot of criticism for its evident grotesque (if not macabre) touch. Nevertheless, left aside film-related debates, my ideas are centred on that aspect: Seaweed Galadriel. A display of power that neither represents the 'normal' nature of Galadriel, nor does it come close to her having accepted the One Ring and thus becoming the Dark Queen of Middle Earth. A truly 'medium' appearance between Light (normal) and Darkness (Dark Queen); symbolising that, albeit the sacred prowess of the Lady of Light, she has not been tested yet and so maintains in her heart deep ambitions of power (what has characterised her since her departure from Aman for this very reason). Her renowned ambition is quite far from being evil (given that she doesn't seek power via violent and subduing means), but it undoubtedly holds something obscure and dark about it. As DrHouse already pointed out fairly: dark sides of her personality and inner might.

I do have evidences that her initial portrayal was really not intended to be that grotesque: I found some non-CGI images portraying what could be viewed as a just compromise between the explosion of power that she conveys and the need to render her spooky and quite sinister, in order to adapt to that special context. Nevertheless, pictures or not, Seaweed Galadriel has logical purposes behind her atypical concept, based on the specific BOTFA film-related lore that PJ and the writers make usage of for their script: that is, once she heads to Dol Guldur to save Gandalf, she has her force and sacred aura gradually drained by the poisonous influence of that dark fortress and by the action of Sauron himself, who, as a beacon, attracts and pulls out her latent obscure ambitions which transform her in a sort of underwater spirit (as I stated, not necessarily evil, but obscure anyway). This is something PJ, Philippa Boyens and another writer explained exhaustively in a making-of video concerning the White Council sequence. The whole eerie environment thus functions as a transitional/transfiguration altar, in the sense that Galadriel is eventually tainted and absorbs part of the very place's properties (altering her proper essence).

An additional theme to deal with could be the supernatural might of the Eldar themselves. Their purest and rough magical potential, which is not always deemed so much holy by whom it involves. Men in the Third Age, just to present an example, feared magic in almost all its forms, because they could not completely understand its nature and due to the contrast between the mightiest Eldar's power and the disenchanted motive of Middle-earth. The Good made often usage of terrible and destructive devices to contest the Evil, as the Valar did in the wars against Melkor. Whenever I think about those multifaceted and more obscure characterisation of the Elves, my mind relates to this particular song (https://youtube.com/watch?v=UZd5WJ0EPiQ), which is one of the most important themes of the LOTR soundtrack: the great grief and regret of the Eldar for having unintentionally helped Sauron's schemes via the forging of the Rings of Power, although they had yearned the restoration in the mortal World of the unattainable bliss of Valinórë.

Adding to that, in another part of the video, Philippa Boyens (one of the main three writers of LOTR and the Hobbit, along with PJ and his wife) confirms that Galadriel loses plenty of her powers in banishing Sauron, and that's why she consequently appears a bit 'detached' in LOTR. Now, given that this last statement is really not so much loyal to the lore (Galadriel, in fact, is author of pivotal deeds in the War of the Ring), I nonetheless wanted to explore this loss motive more deeply, ending up with deciding to slow her movements down whenever she chooses to take that form (due to the amount of power that she has to bear). Following this premise, I really like the suggestions you made about health and other possible consequences. Although the concept itself is still at its very first stage, this relevant theme could be a solid base to start from, indeed.

Both accepting and refusing the One Ring will cause her to necessarily lose this stance system. Especially, receiving the blessing from the West leads to her relinquishing those ambitions, and she ultimately hands over the phial to Frodo. Therefore, I don't think that she needs a stance system at all after taking the One Ring, but I had honestly not thought about possible concepts for her blessed form yet; henceforth, proposing that kind of features may be an option too. The core reasoning is that this will give her the possibility to have some chances to counter units and heroes in dangerous contexts, without altering and disrupting her coherent role so much. Galadriel is also, along with Sauron, one of the most prominent and iconic heroes in the game, and I thus sincerely believe that she greatly deserves such unique stance system as the Lord of Mordor's (with all the due differences).


First of all, I think we can find a just compromise between our differing views, by basically merging some aspects of the proposed abilities and then reducing them to three. As I already pointed out above, what I deem vital is avoiding to make this stance form a sort of poorer version of the Dark Queen, bearing in mind that the option we are discussing is primarily supposed to be used in very situational and emergency situations (resulting in her acquiring a hero-interfer role and endurance against monsters). This defensive feature would nonetheless be legitimate for a 3000-resource heroine, who is the leader of Lothlórien and the mightiest Elf in the Third Age.

Furthermore, the stance system is meant to twist her supportive abilities in interfering features, to mirror (with the due differences) what happens with Sauron: the idea of mutating nature/essence (reflected by her appearance) and unlocking aggressive powers. Galadriel, as the Dark Lord's nemesis in Middle-earth, would therefore be granted the chance to show how much disruptive her prowess can be towards the enemies (and the shift to this more aggressive form would exactly be symbolised by her transformation).

That said, she is really not to become (even in that temporary form) a mass-slayer option for her faction at all (thus my opposition to disproportionate features). This seaweed form is exactly set apart from any logic and reference involving the One Ring. As a conceptual note aside, I hope you appreciate the fact that her normal supportive properties would be inverted in deep interference and gloomy influence; just like her appearance does (symbolising the twist even more effectively).

Since I know that this thread has a natural proclivity in inspiring me to produce very long and intricate walls of text, I will then restrain myself a bit and opt for a synthetical exposition.

General Elements

The option Ancient Might will replace her stance system. In the whole duration of said form, she won't be capable of attacking both units and structures, and her movements will be slowed down severely. Always taking quite for granted that she should always need to be escorted by other heroes and troops, those collateral consequences are well compensated by the negative influence she casts.

The basic properties of Galadriel's presence in the game must absolutely remain unaltered. She must continue to remain behind the frontline and cast her Magic (supportive or disruptive) via long-range abilities.

Ancient Might turns Galadriel into her Drowned/Seaweed form, affecting her with the above-mentioned restrictions and unlocking temporarily (from a minimum of 30 seconds, to a maximum of four minutes) a Palantír that consists of the following abilities.

(http://i.imgur.com/C2ue1Ab.jpg)

ANCIENT MIGHT

(http://i.imgur.com/2gxXn0M.gif)

(http://i.imgur.com/kjdMHVw.gif) Uncanny Presence (level 1): Passive. All heroes and monsters in her vicinity gets -15% on attack and speed. Galadriel's armour against them is increased by 30%.

(http://i.imgur.com/meQz1wC.gif) Wrath of the Elven Queen (level 3): The Queen of Wood-elves unleashes her terrible wrath in the form of a concentric explosion of power. All enemies in its radius are violently knocked back and harmed.

Very fitting graphical effects for her blast could be the ones showcased in this video, which is a presentation of Ealendril's Chronicles Submod. The FX I'm referring to are the ones shown at the beginning (at 0:20). The current rendition should be modified a little though, doing away with Sauron's iconic sound and with the whole heating effect (making the blast faster will also do well for our purpose).


(http://i.imgur.com/M0o7I2X.gif) You Have no Power! (level 7): Once it's used on a single hero, the enemy hero deals no damage for a brief amount of time (and, if its ordinary attack contemplates this, it doesn't knock back either until the effect is over).

(http://i.imgur.com/2owT1a2.gif) Banishment into the Void (level 10): Galadriel unleashes the might of her phial and casts her confining spell against the Evil. All enemy heroes, monsters and units in a radius will flee in terror, their abilities will be reset and the nearest units are knocked back by the shockwave of the very power.


IMPORTANT: The usage of this ability will automatically force Galadriel to return to her normal form. This ultimate display of might will drain all her remaining energies to maintain the Drowned/Seaweed appearance, as it's exactly shown in BOTFA.


Zitat
The model of Galadriel in the evil campaign of BFME2 shall be used for Ancient Might, so that the Edain Team won't have to work on anything related to graphics. I also find this very appearance of hers very apt for our needs, given that it marvellously depicts the in-between characterisation of this feature (between the Lady of Light and the Dark Queen). I also think that the aura surrounding her well portrays Galadriel's obscure prowess coming forth, as it was conceived in the original intentions of WETA. Furthermore, I view those effects (FX) as a sort of sea mist being spread while she's mutating her nature, in line with the exact definition provided by WETA: an underwater spirit! Last but not least, water connects automatically with Nenya and the vast seas of Middle-earth, which Galadriel longs greatly to journey beyond (desire that her Ring has constantly been nourishing).

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ap85xo2Ejb0

Speaking about graphics and animations, I dare say that there shouldn't be big problematical issues concerning these fields. A complete model of Galadriel is already at hand. Eerie Aura and You Have no Power don't need an animation at all, Wrath of the Elven Queen could simply utilise one of her ordinary animations for the attack (when she raises her arm) and for the third one there is Frodo's phial animation (which would be perfectly fitting for her equally); the ultimate ability (banishment) will also show a blue-ish explosion, based on Dark Queen's ordinary attack (that ghostly blue-ish tone will exactly indicate that she's resembling a lesser version of her terrible form). Her slowed down movements could imitate the pace of common peasants.

SOUNDS: German (https://soundcloud.com/diewalk-re/sets/galadriels-botfa-sounds-in-german) and English (https://soundcloud.com/diewalk-re/sets/galadriel-botfa-sounds-for-edain).

Galadriel's whirl against structures: Storm (https://soundcloud.com/diewalk-re/galadriels-storm?in=diewalk-re/sets/galadriels-additional-sounds)
Eerie Aura (in loop): Enchanting Words (https://m.soundcloud.com/diewalk-re/you-have-no-power?in=diewalk-re/sets/galadriels-additional-sounds)
Wrath of the Elven Queen: ''I will destroy you'' (https://soundcloud.com/diewalk-re/sets/wrath-of-the-elven-queen) (the German version of the line has been provided as well)
You Have no Power: ''You have no power here!'' (https://soundcloud.com/diewalk-re/edain9?in=diewalk-re/sets/galadriel-botfa-sounds-for-edain)
Banishment into the Void: ''Go back...'' (https://soundcloud.com/diewalk-re/edain14?in=diewalk-re/sets/galadriel-botfa-sounds-for-edain)

I decided to do away with her earthquake ability, as it would objectively have been too much and contrasted with the main lore/gameplay principles of this proposal (not to mention the evident resemblance with the Dark Queen). I believe this may be a very balanced design, and the fact that this feature is temporary (and, I suppose, characterised by a quite long recharging time) reduces the risk of overpowering her unnecessarily. This is still a work-in-progress concept, though, and I'm more than open to any new suggestion or insight (concerning balance, in particular). You are also absolutely free to propose new names for her powers. A response from the Edain Team might be great too, especially when it comes to the technical field. I'm sure this proposal has indeed some chances to be developed decently and to finally bloom as a new element of the very game (endowing Galadriel, in a clever way, with significant traits that correspond perfectly to her leading role).

All graphical aspects are obviously secondary at this initial stage (hoping to deal with them later, even though I already have some ideas). Nevertheless, last year I had already presented a few suitable sounds for our scope (both in German and in English) and I fortunately managed to retrieve the BOTFA concept arts I referred to above from the unexplored width of the Internet. As you can see, non-CGI Seaweed Galadriel fits our context very well: this appearance displays her obscure potential and ambitions (not evil, for she doesn't aim at domination) which come forth when she is tainted by darkness and when she finds herself in serious peril, without turning her in a gruesome incubus. The mild solution which may be the just one for the case.


IN FAVOUR

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Edited by Walküre
All trademarks belong to the immaculate and eternal potency of the Valkyrie 8-)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Jul 2015, 17:00
Really nice and accurate analysis  :)

Some time ago I thought about a passive ability that normal Galadriel could have, at level 3 or 5, an interesting and innovative skill; but, since it's quite unlikely that the Edain Team will implement it for her normal concept, I think it could be somehow integrated with your proposal's power 'Blessed Aura' of blessed Galadriel  :)
This skill/power is basically the opposite concept of the great power of Khamûl 'Khamûl's presence'; his Magic affects enemy structures and gradually corrodes them.

So, basing on my idea, if Galadriel is closed to your own structures, her Magic will make them 5-10% more resistant (and immune to negative spells and other heroes' powers) and slowly repair them if they are damaged.
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 14. Jul 2015, 17:11
good stuf
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Tienety am 14. Jul 2015, 19:07
I like these ideas. 8-)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 14. Jul 2015, 21:35
This skill/power is basically the opposite concept of the great power of Khamûl 'Khamûl's presence'; his Magic affects enemy structures and gradually corrodes them.

We have the same thoughts. xD
I've tried to implement such skill to Dark lady first, because as she said
Zitat
Stronger than the foundations of the Earth!
so logically structures (walls and buildings) aren't for her any problem, her presence is generally terrible. So Khamul effect would be for allied and enemy structures, but logically it would be only copy of his unique ability. And dark lady should correspond to Galadriel blessed and for her it would be quite OP, just imagine - Lorien castle is circle and buildings are connected to main citadel, so if they are under attacks, blessed Galadriel can simply stay under trees and structures are repaired. :P
When I thought about her pasive ability, I considered what Lorien really needs? And answer for this question is "heal" (for units) - in comparison to previous version Lorien will have less number of heal spells, so reason was permanent heal for nearby units (and other bonuses) and for Dark lady logically some negative effects.

good stuf
Thanks. :)

I like this idea. 8-)
Which one? So many ideas around, at least three. :P
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Jul 2015, 22:06

And dark lady should correspond to Galadriel blessed and for her it would be quite OP, just imagine - Lorien castle is circle and buildings are connected to main citadel, so if they are under attacks, blessed Galadriel can simply stay under trees and structures are repaired. :P


This is basically the main purpose of the concept  xD

But you have to consider that the bonus towards structures would give resistance of only 5-10%, and that the healing would be quite slow, not enough fast to save a building under attack.

The point is: Galadriel is not in her settlement (Tree House), then it will be easier to destroy it; Galadriel is in her settlement, then a lot of troubles for the assaulting forces  :P

Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 14. Jul 2015, 22:15
This is basically the main purpose of the concept  xD
I see. :P
But for me would be quite OP and not conceptual Galadriel in that case, because similar ability has Nenya on level 10, or not? ;)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Jul 2015, 22:23

But for me would be quite OP and not conceptual Galadriel in that case, because such ability has Nenya on level 10, or not? ;)

I hope that she (normal form) will have it  :)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 14. Jul 2015, 22:28
I hope that she (normal form) will have it  :)
Nenya's power always correspond to Nenya's might (I mean in the previous version skills "Magic of the golden forest" and "Power of the golden forest").
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 15. Jul 2015, 08:57
Really  nice analysis with reasons and fact!You have thought trough eveything in detail!And I must admite I like the idea of Galadriel with those forms ,it will most certailny be more interesint to have diversity in her representing what could have happened and what happened!IT will make her nd Lorien more interesting to play!I am all the way with you idea mate! :)
And yet she hsouldn't be too OP after all she is not Sauron himself! :)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Tienety am 16. Jul 2015, 14:04
Which one? So many ideas around, at least three. :P
I like the contrast between the Lady of Light vs Dark Queen. Very interesting concept.  ;)

Dark lady is completely the same like in the previous version (with small upgrade for level one of course). Ea some time ago said that they are satisfied with her and problem was only with her blessed form. Also her negative effect has to be included in her and not in the sub factions, because I think that it is not possible to loose whole Mirkwood or ents as only way how to siege (except of her).

Also, i agree with this idea. I think It is too much lose mini-factions with Dark Galadriel. in addition, Dark Galadriel has Dark aura which weakens allies. Also, she don't have Gifts of Lorien for heroes. xD

As we know - she will have two automatic primary attacks.
1. Primary attack against buildings - the whirl which damages enemy structures. I think that for all forms she should have role of building destroyer, it means that all her forms should be able to attack against structures so the attack should be the same.  After all - differences are in the skills.
2. Primary attack against normal units/heroes/machines - if she will have whirlwind against structures, I always thought that her both attacks should also correspond and in that case Alatar west wind (whirl with light + knockback efect) fits perfectly for her. Just check Alatar's first AOE attack in the video (0:42):

Also, I think that the old Alatar range attack with a knockback would be perfect for Galadriel. Alatar don't need three diferrent attacks in spellbook. Probably Blue Wizards abilities will be reduced like Gandalf abilities in Dwarven faction, too. 8-)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 16. Jul 2015, 14:20
Also, I think that the old Alatar range attack with a knockback would be perfect for Galadriel.
I simply support easy and elegant recyclation of previous versions. :D
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Jul 2015, 14:55
Also, I think that the old Alatar range attack with a knockback would be perfect for Galadriel.
I simply support easy and elegant recyclation of previous versions. :D

I strongly support it too, and the reasons for it have been stated a million of times, involving Galadriel's nature and status  :P

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/2/1673/1672467/thumb_620x2000/tumblr_static_tumblr_static_8miogj0c4eckcs0ksscs40ccw_640.gif)

But I also kind of understand the reasons of the Edain Team behind their concept of an attack from distance for her, to keep her safe, since her role is supporting and protecting, and, once she has her way cleared from enemies, destroying structures with her powers.
Given this analysis, I don't think that the Edain Team will easily renounce and change the concept of her primary attack.
What about, then, a compromise? A white blast/attack from distance, with a moderate knock back effect  8-)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 16. Jul 2015, 15:04
What about, then, a compromise? A white blast/attack from distance, with a moderate knock back effect  8-)
But that's first Alatar attack about. ;) ... It fits perfectly. Maybe in that video it isn't visible as should be, you should check previous version or find different video. 8-|
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Jul 2015, 15:23

But that's first Alatar attack about. ;) ... It fits perfectly. Maybe in that video it isn't visible as should be, you should check previous version or find different video. 8-|

I'm sorry, I admit I didn't watch the video, because I thought it would have shown Alatar's primary and normal attack from the Edain Mod 3.8.1, since I never played previous versions of the Edain Mod  :P

Now that I watched it carefully, I really like it; if this concept were graphically made into a white and radiating blast, it could resemble perfectly Galadriel's blast in Dol Guldur  :)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 16. Jul 2015, 15:29

But that's first Alatar attack about. ;) ... It fits perfectly. Maybe in that video it isn't visible as should be, you should check previous version or find different video. 8-|

I'm sorry, I admit I didn't watch the video, because I thought it would have shown Alatar's primary and normal attack from the Edain Mod 3.8.1, since I never played previous versions of the Edain Mod  :P

Now that I watched it carefully, I really like it; if this concept were graphically made into a white and radiating blast, it could resemble perfectly Galadriel's blast in Dol Guldur  :)
Now that you mention it it can really make beautifull sight and mighty power to represnt galdariel skills!
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Jul 2015, 15:33

Now that you mention it it can really make beautifull sight and mighty power to represnt galdariel skills!


Of course, a characteristic and innovative kind of attack, different from the ones of the other Elven Heroes (Elrond, Thranduil, Celeborn, Legolas,...)  :)
Thank you for supporting it  :)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 16. Jul 2015, 16:22

Now that you mention it it can really make beautifull sight and mighty power to represnt galdariel skills!


Of course, a characteristic and innovative kind of attack, different from the ones of the other Elven Heroes (Elrond, Thranduil, Celeborn, Legolas,...)  :)
Thank you for supporting it  :)
No problem mate!A godd idea is a good idea! :) Well her Attack should be much more different than their,they are more of a Melee Fighters while she is Mystic and Powerfull Magic user and on top of it the Fairest of All Elves in Middle Earth which suggests that not only she is beautifull but her Magic too! :)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Jul 2015, 16:37

Now that you mention it it can really make beautifull sight and mighty power to represnt galdariel skills!


Of course, a characteristic and innovative kind of attack, different from the ones of the other Elven Heroes (Elrond, Thranduil, Celeborn, Legolas,...)  :)
Thank you for supporting it  :)
No problem mate!A godd idea is a good idea! :) Well her Attack should be much more different than their,they are more of a Melee Fighters while she is Mystic and Powerfull Magic user and on top of it the Fairest of All Elves in Middle Earth which suggests that not only she is beautifull but her Magic too! :)

Exactly, this is the fundamental reason behind it  8-)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: AmosVogel am 17. Jul 2015, 01:37
Since I was young -so do Edain- Galadriel attacked with a white wizard blast. I think its perfect.

About her powers I always supported Tiberius ideas... I only may say dont like a lot her last power: that green explotion.

Why? because its like Zarphagors or Gandalfs Word of Power. Why dont her last power be a random one?

(ill just write a bunch of ideas, you could suggest more & better ones)

1. The same green explotion wich causes damage to everything
2. All units aroundd her become ensnared to her will; as she says <all shall love me & disppair>
3. All her powers become available

Also I may share some pic i truly love, a true & majestic dark form:

http://img05.deviantart.net/32c1/i/2014/350/1/a/wrath_of_galadriel_by_zyrexthez-d8a1boy.jpg


Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 02:41
Since I was young -so do Edain- Galadriel attacked with a white wizard blast. I think its perfect.


This is basically the fundamental reason behind this proposal :)
The primary attack should remain an attack from distance, as the Edain Team has initially stated in the news about Lothlórien, since the role of Galadriel now is changed, being her an essential supporting hero for both heroes and units, and thus she has to stay away as much as possible from direct and heavy battles; then, once the enemies are defeated or she is accompanied by an army, she can unleash her natural powers against structures, as a Building Destroyer.

But, having said that, I think that it is crucial that her iconic knock back effect still remains a part of her character as a hero, for she is a royal and 'special' kind of Elf, on another scale, compared to elven heroes (still powerful and essential) like Celeborn, Thranduil, Legolas and Tauriel, who fight mainly with swords/daggers or bows.
It is obvious that Galadriel's primary attack won't be nearly as powerful as a Wizard blast; but it could be a white (bright) radiating blast from distance, with also a moderate knock back effect (with also the characteristic sound of her attack in the Edain Mod 3.8.1)  :)

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/2/1673/1672467/thumb_620x2000/tumblr_static_tumblr_static_8miogj0c4eckcs0ksscs40ccw_640.gif)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 17. Jul 2015, 03:03
well i think galadriel power should be those. lvl 1 a strong blast lvl 3 a healing mist lvl 5 grow mallorn trees lvl 7 look in to the mirror lvl 10 a tornado only to destroy one building
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 17. Jul 2015, 09:08
About her powers I always supported Tiberius ideas... I only may say dont like a lot her last power: that green explotion.
I have no problem with this, because it's quite fitting, firstly it demonstrates her surprise powerful moment when he takes her form in the Fellowship scene and secondly it has perfect animation (green/blue blast of power with waves) - nice image that Nenya is corrupted by the One ring. Just look at my "Comparison" - I am talking about it little bit.

i think galadriel power should be those. lvl 1 a strong blast lvl 3 a healing mist lvl 5 grow mallorn trees lvl 7 look in to the mirror lvl 10 a tornado only to destroy one building
Well, just read my suggestions again - I wrote it for some reason :P. Your ideas aren't conceptual, because it seems like mix of all her forms. xD
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 17. Jul 2015, 10:32
You are right there!If she is going to have more forms she needs aprorptiate Powers for each one and mixing them all in one will not fit nethier! :)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 17. Jul 2015, 11:20
I'm quite satisfied for the Normal version the Edain Team developed for Galadriel, except for her level 1 skill. I don't know if it's an active skill which makes the enemies flee, but I think that a passive skill would be better:

Lv. 1: Might of the White Lady - Nearby enemy units lose -20% attack and damage. The same bonus in defense is applied to Lorien's buildings in Galadriel's proximity. Passive skill

Why this? Because it was Galadriel's magic who kept Lothlorien safe from Sauron's forces, and it could be violated only by Sauron himself. So I think this is an appropriate and fitting way to implement this concept, with Galadriel enhancing the defenses of her realm. Also, her figure is unknown and full of mistery for most of the people in Middle-Earth, which explains the malus she gives to nearby units

When she becomes Blessed, her skill could be changed into this (which is a combination of Tiberius and DieWalkure's ideas):

Lv. 1: Might of the Blessed Lady - Nearby enemy units suffer -20% attack and defense. At level 3, they suffer -25% attack and defense. At level 5, they suffer -30% attack and defense. At level 7, they suffer -35% attack and defense and at level 10 -40% attack and defense. The same bonus in defense is applied to Lorien's buildings in Galadriel's proximity

Why this? Because Galadriel has been blessed by the Valar for her enormous courage to refuse the One Ring, and thus, the more powerful Galadriel becomes, the more strong the Blessing becomes, too. Moreover, this is meant to grant to the player a viable option over the destructive power of Dark Galadriel, so that if he takes the Ring, he will actually think about making Galadriel accept or refuse it: will he need huge command and support bonuses or more destructive skills?

Regarding the other skills and Galadriel's Dark Form, I'm agree with Tiberius, except maybe for the final skill, which imo is a bit commonplace (but I don't have a better idea, so it's ok for now XD)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 17. Jul 2015, 11:49
I'm quite satisfied for the Normal version the Edain Team developed for Galadriel, except for her level 1 skill. I don't know if it's an active skill which makes the enemies flee, but I think that a passive skill would be better
It's her iconic and active ability which causes fear to normal units. Bonuses (passive abilities) can have her ring heroes, but this is only one ability, which helps her slow down enemies around her.

it was Galadriel's magic who kept Lothlorien safe from Sauron's forces, and it could be violated only by Sauron himself. So I think this is an appropriate and fitting way to implement this concept, with Galadriel enhancing the defenses of her realm. Also, her figure is unknown and full of mistery
Yes, but not only her, but the whole Golden forest was full of mysteries and people feared to go there. Defense system will be implemented in different way, through mellyrn:


When she becomes Blessed, her skill could be changed into this (which is a combination of Tiberius and DieWalkure's ideas):
Lv. 1: Might of the Blessed Lady - Nearby enemy units suffer -20% attack and defense. At level 3, they suffer -25% attack and defense. At level 5, they suffer -30% attack and defense. At level 7, they suffer -35% attack and defense and at level 10 -40% attack and defense.
Nice, but it little breaks my comparison. xD ... My logic is simple: Blessed form - positive bonus vs Dark form - negative bonus.

The same bonus in defense is applied to Lorien's buildings in Galadriel's proximity
But about defense bonus for buildings and overall for her realm is Nenya spell on level ten. ;)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 17. Jul 2015, 12:34
i think the power of galadriel s ring should be an upgrade for the camp
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 12:48
i think the power of galadriel s ring should be an upgrade for the camp


Actually this was the concept of the Edain Mod 3.8.1.
I think it would be more useful, crucial and characteristic for her, as a hero, if Galadriel personally activated it, as she will personally give her Gifts to the heroes of Lothlórien (once a power only available via the Spellbook) and personally grant them a glance in her Mirror (again another upgrade that was previously available in the fortress of Lothlórien).
Galadriel, thus, will gain much more power and importance, as the leader of Lothlórien, for the whole faction  :)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 17. Jul 2015, 12:59
i think the power of galadriel s ring should be an upgrade for the camp

as a hero, if Galadriel personally activated it, as she will personally give her Gifts to the heroes of Lothlórien (once a power only available via the Spellbook) and personally grant them a glance in her Mirror (again another upgrade that was previously available in the fortress of Lothlórien).
As you said, Galadriel will have one skill from former fotress upgrade and one skill from former spellbook. 8-|
You really want second fotress upgrade for her? She isn't "walking fotress" ... :P
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 17. Jul 2015, 16:01
i think she can use a horse too a white one
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 17. Jul 2015, 18:26
she can use a horse too
It would be nice contrast - her extremely slow walk (because she wants stay fabulous) vs fast horse riding. So please, no! xD
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 19:06
i think she can use a horse too a white one

Actually, in the books (ROTK), she has indeed a beautiful white horse, and she rides it on her way to the Grey Havens  :)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 17. Jul 2015, 19:28
By the way - I've checked many passive abilities in the game and it seems that my armour/attack bonus for both forms is quite underpowered (in comparison with ring heroes and even with normal heroes). What about on level one + - 10 % and level ten  will finish with + - 50 %?
Or maybe better - bonus for attack will stay 5x5 and only armour bonus will have 10x5.
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Saruman_the_wise am 25. Jul 2015, 02:10
Great Galadriel idea! tiberus
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 26. Jul 2015, 14:07
By the way - I've checked many passive abilities in the game and it seems that my armour/attack bonus for both forms is quite underpowered (in comparison with ring heroes and even with normal heroes). What about on level one + - 10 % and level ten  will finish with + - 50 %?
Or maybe better - bonus for attack will stay 5x5 and only armour bonus will have 10x5.
Well since she is more for the "protection"sh should boost vastly the Armor! :)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 26. Jul 2015, 21:34
Great Galadriel idea!
Thanks! xD

she is more for the "protection"sh should boost vastly the Armor! :)
I agree and I've already implemented it for my proposal.
Titel: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Aug 2015, 19:25
The Valkyrie of MU has a great new brand Avatar (thank you CMG), and it's back in her full glory  8-)

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/4/3141/3140794/thumb_620x2000/Galadriel_28.gif)

So, given the fact that Lothlórien could be the next faction to be released, or, if not, it will be released probably by the end of this year, I want to do a small detailed analysis on Galadriel, the most powerful (and expensive  xD) hero of this faction (or, at least, I hope  :P) and its unquestionable leader.
Instead of my previous lore posts, I decided to base all these considerations on the very gameplay, and expose what I like more and what I like less of the new great concept of Galadriel, on behalf of the information that the Edain Team gave us about Lothlórien in the ModDB news.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-lothlorien-part-2

GALADRIEL'S ROLE

One of the biggest innovations about her concept is the radical change of her role.
Galadriel will be a Building Destroyer and a Hero Supporter; but, apart from her unique and characteristic primary attack against structures, her powers will be mostly and rightly targeted to supporting your heroes and the allies' ones, as it is the role of Galadriel in the War of the Ring, a Guardian that gives precious advices and Gifts to the Fellowship with her immense Knowledge and protects with her sensational Magic all her realm from the evil powers of Sauron.

I have to say that I really appreciated this radical and significant change, as Galadriel was, in the Edain Mod 3.8.1, not so much attractive overall (being still a good character), as if her attack and abilities didn't match her role in the faction, both for the gameplay and the lore.
And I greatly appreciate as well, as you'll see in the next conclusions, that her powers will give her a far more active and significant role in her faction, since, 'technically' speaking, she will be able to personally give her own precious Gifts and grant a vision in her Mirror without the help of a power of the Spellbook or an upgrade of the fortress.
The fact that Galadriel will personally do these things is crucial and very indicative for her active role as a hero.


I also would like to remind everyone that, although I totally like the addition of the subfaction of Mirkwood and I like Thranduil very much (even more than Celeborn), the star and leader of the faction is Galadriel  :P

GALADRIEL'S POWERS

Now some direct considerations about Galadriel's powers  :)

- GLANCE OF THE WHITE LADY: Iconic ability of hers from the previous version of the game; it resembles also the Light that she emanates when she first meets the Fellowship in FOTR (film).


- GLANCE IN THE MIRROR: It was an interesting and unique tool of the fortress, that now Galadriel will personally use as her own personal power; this power indicates her role has a Hero Supporter.

But the problem about this power, I think, are the possible negative effects that can have, making this power a quite 'dangerous' and unpredictable tool.
This power could thus turn out to be a quite ineffective, if not counterproductive power, for the most powerful hero of this faction.

I don't want it of course to be changed, because, not only is it an unique ability of Galadriel, but also, it's not her fault if the heroes get frightened a bit of what they see in her Mirror  :P
But a possible solution will be explained later, in the considerations about her primary attack.

- VISION IN THE MIRROR: A fundamental ability of Galadriel, the most powerful Foresight ability in the whole Edain Mod, no other words needed  8-)

- GIFTS OF LÓRIEN: The power of hers that I like the most after Nenya.
The power that really indicates her status as the leader of the faction and a Hero Supporter, by giving precious and unique Gifts (upgrades) to all the heroes of Lothlórien, making you really 'feel' her importance and role as a character  8-)
Needless to say, this unique option was once a power of the Spellbook that now Galadriel will personally activate.


But an issue comes, I think, once the power has already been used for all your heroes, and they are all present on the battlefield.
In this situation, this power will naturally become useless for her, and it's a pity, considering that it is a level 7 ability of the leader of a faction, leaving her very vulnerable to the threats of Hero Killers or other units; adding also that her level 3 power (Glance in the Mirror) could also affect negatively your own heroes.

One could also say, however, that, once the Gifts have been handed to the heroes, this will result in a significant enhancement for your heroes and your faction overall, compensating the flaws of this power.
I totally agree with this objection, because, again, I don't want this power to be changed, since I think that a possible and alternative solution for Galadriel's 'safety' could be found about other abilities of hers; I will explain it later, as for the one of the level 3 power.

- NENYA'S PROTECTION: I won't add any other wall of words about this matter, because I think I have already explained everything (for the lore and the gameplay) in my long rivers of text in previous posts, that can be easily found on this forum for whom needs them  :)

I will just say that the temporary Protection of Nenya should be extended also to the surrounding structures, for the very nature of Nenya and Galadriel's powers related to her realm (an enchanted realm), resembling, if it's possible, the extraordinary previous tool 'Schutzbann Caras Galadhons', previously available in the fortress.
This would put Galadriel on a complete different level, reaching a perfect combination between the lore accuracy and the uniqueness required for a level 10 ability of a leader/ring hero, uniqueness, that you, Ealendril, always like and research  :)
Galadriel will thus be, incorporating three previous tools available through the Spellbook and the fortress (Glance in the Mirror, Gifts and Protection of Caras Galadhon) a real 'Walking Fortress', since she is the Fortress and Walls of Lothlórien, because its Protection and Bliss depend on her.


- PRIMARY ATTACK: And here we are to her sensational and unique primary attack.

Few words needed: I love it  ;)
Very unique and characteristic, but, to summarise a bit, there are some things that I would add, also to compensate those previous flaws of her powers that I previously mentioned, granting her a quite strong and sufficient capability of defending herself.

- Primary attack against units: It's really good, but I would also add a moderate knock back effect, to grant her a better possibilty to escape, but also, because the knock back effect indicates her status as a superior High Elf, superior to all the others in the game, an unique characteristic of her strength and character.

It would also resemble her white blast in BOTFA.


- Primary attack against structures: It's simply sensational, and, as the ET wrote in the news, it refers perfectly to the destruction of Dol Guldur by Galadriel  8-)

Just a proposal: I don't know if you added any particular sound for this attack, but I think that a storm sound, like the one of Gorthaur's fortress, will be perfect.

Storm (Weather) > Earthquake (Ground)  8-|


These are my ideas, and I sincerely hope that they won't go unheard.
And I also thank the Edain Team for its significant changes of Lothlórien and its work  ;)

I leave you with this beautiful image that I created, modifying a previous picture  (**)

(http://imagegecko.net/upload4/Galadriel%20raises%20her%20hand%20and%20shows%20Nenya%201.jpg)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Darkslayer am 3. Aug 2015, 19:36
Tiberius, what can you say to allay my concerns about Galadriel being too powerful? And she is my favorite Tolkien female character, so I do like her. :D I just think Sauron, Saruman, and Gandalf should all be more powerful.
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 3. Aug 2015, 20:12
i think they are powerful but galadriel should be more  not more than sauron but kinda same lvl and more powerful than sauron if she takes the ring
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Aug 2015, 20:46
Tiberius, what can you say to allay my concerns about Galadriel being too powerful? And she is my favorite Tolkien female character, so I do like her. :D I just think Sauron, Saruman, and Gandalf should all be more powerful.

I think that there is no problem then  :)

Galadriel, Saruman, Sauron and Gandalf are the leaders/ring heroes of their respective factions, they all are/should be more powerful  :)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 3. Aug 2015, 20:52
i think galadriel made it prrety clear in the movie how powerful she will be  xD xD xD
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Darkslayer am 3. Aug 2015, 21:16
i think galadriel made it prrety clear in the movie how powerful she will be  xD xD xD
Movies aren't always 100% accurate :p
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Aug 2015, 22:35
nope  xD xD xD

The information about Galadriel's new abilities and role were released by the Edain Team at the end of November 2014, in the news about Mirkwood.
And I had already written it in my post/analysis.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-lothlorien-part-2

Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 3. Aug 2015, 22:43
nope  xD xD xD

The information about Galadriel's new abilities and role were released by the Edain Team at the end of November 2014, in the news about Mirkwood.
And I had already written it in my post/analysis.  i think a discussion were made about galadriels skills so i was thinking maybe they changed them my bad 

http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-lothlorien-part-2
didint know that because i was not around at 2014
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 4. Aug 2015, 21:54
But an issue comes, I think, once the power has already been used for all your heroes, and they are all present on the battlefield.
In this situation, this power will naturally become useless for her, and it's a pity, considering that it is a level 7 ability of the leader of a faction, leaving her very vulnerable to the threats of Hero Killers or other units; adding also that her level 3 power (Glance in the Mirror) could also affect negatively your own heroes.

One could also say, however, that, once the Gifts have been handed to the heroes, this will result in a significant enhancement for your heroes and your faction overall, compensating the flaws of this power.
I totally agree with this objection, because, again, I don't want this power to be changed, since I think that a possible and alternative solution for Galadriel's 'safety' could be found about other abilities of hers; I will explain it later, as for the one of the level 3 power.
Exactly my thoughts and it was quite frequent kind of complaining on Moddb.com - that "Glance in the mirror" has negative effect for friendly heroes (so Galadriel works for enemy?) and that skill "Gifts of Lorien" maybe is not "real skill" for hero - first one is former fotress upgrade and second thing is former spell from Spellbook. Maybe this is reason why these spells are problematic for her as a hero.
Also spell "Vision in the mirror" - can be very useful for Multiplayer game, but against AI such spell is completely useless. But I am just saying - that spell has specific kind of balance. :P

- NENYA'S PROTECTION:
It's obvious that through that skill Galadriel protects her realm, but question is - is she protected as well? No she is not.
It's very nice that it affects everything around her (although for only short, very short time) but what reaction of the enemy will be? It's simple - he will send everything what he have against her. And Gladys is one of the slowest heroes and then she will be immediately gone. xD
If she will be protected as well, it will be quite problematic, because invulnerability have only tank heroes (like Thorin or Hama).

Neverthless, we can expect from Extended edition (or at least concept arts it described) that Nenya protects Galadriel as well:

Zitat
"We offered up ideas for how the confrontation might play out.  Azog was going to be there to harvest Gandalf's Ring of Power.  Philippa [Boyens] talked to us about Galadriel protecting herself and the prone Wizard from Azog through the power of her Elven Ring, Nenya, which would manifest flashes of fallen Elven heroes like Gil-galad or Earendil whenever tried to strike her.  He couldn't touch her."


Interesting idea about ring of protection:


She is simply untouchable :)

Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 5. Aug 2015, 14:36

True, the negative effects might end up to be a bit problematic for Galadriel, given also that her role consists in supporting absolutely positively your heroes and the allies' ones, and that, lore speaking, her advices always turned out to be very helpful and useful, though harsh they initially could seem; I have to say that 'Glance in the Mirror' is the ability I like the least among all her powers.

It's right that her Foresight ability is far more useful in Multiplayer games, but I don't mind it, since it will be the most powerful Foresight ability in the game, a very characteristic trait of hers  8-)

About the Gifts of Lórien, I totally agree with you about the possible problems involved, but, as I wrote above, I like very much this power, as it is a symbol of her status and it's a previous important spell that now Galadriel will personally activate, as she precisely does in the lore, handing personally the Gifts to the Fellowship.
So, given these issues, a possible balance solution, could be making the upgrades and bonus of the Gifts really relevant and effective, so that the other heroes can compensate the lack of 'offensive' powers of Galadriel; another solution, as I wrote in my previous comment, could rightly consist in enhancing her primary attack against units a bit, giving it a moderate knock back effect, granting Galadriel more chances to escape and defend herself.

Regarding Nenya, I sincerely hope that its powers will protect everything around Galadriel (units/heroes + structures), as it is a very reasonable and unique proposal for her  :)
And I agree with you, it's logical that Galadriel should be protected as well by her own Ring of Power, she is the Lady of Light after all  ;)
I also, graphically speaking, would add an effect, while the powers of Nenya are activated; I would make Nenya shine on her finger of a White Light, as Narya currently shines on Círdan's finger.
All the Three Rings should shine of a White Light on the finger of their Bearers  :)
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 5. Aug 2015, 16:13
but elronds ring should shine a lil bit blueish
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 5. Aug 2015, 16:43
All the Three Rings should shine of a White Light on the finger of their Bearers  :)
I agree. It will be very nice cosmetic detail.
Why only Cirdan has such utility? All three ring bearers should have the same conditions. By the way - Galadriel had such kind of cosmetic upgrade through gift from Celeborn in the previous version. He gave her some jewel which enhanced her abilities, so we know that it will work.
Titel: Re: Lady of light vs Dark queen
Beitrag von: Walküre am 6. Aug 2015, 18:20
By the way, it's not completely true that PJ failed to represent the connection between Nenya and the sanctity of Lothlórien.
In this sequence, in the very first second (0.01), Aragorn sees from afar Lothlórien, beyond the clouds, and it's clearly visible that the Golden Wood is embalmed with an unnatural calm and sunny Weather, representing its ethereal and magical nature  :)

Galadriel at her best  (**)

https://youtube.com/watch?v=wbOvoGqraKY
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 8. Aug 2015, 00:45
I've just reworked the first page and normal form of Galadriel. Tomorrow I'll post also the rest of her forms, which will be reworked little bit, too. ;)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 8. Aug 2015, 10:50
Good job! I agree with you: the gift ability has to be available earlier.
I would just swap Vision in the mirror and Strength of mind because I think the former abiltiy needs to come sooner, or at least not too late. Why? Because the longer the game lasts the more interesting is this spell: it's a pity to have to wait for a level 7 Galadriel to be able to start clearing the fog, right? Also your analysis on scout heroes is false, in my opinion, because having first a level 3, 5 or 7 Galadriel will ALWAYS give space to scout heroes. :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Aug 2015, 16:00

You're welcome, Tiberius, books' quotes and videos are my element  ;)

Very interesting analysis, the Gifts of Lórien will be available sooner, making Galadriel immediately 'useful' for your heroes on the battlefield, in line with her role as a Hero Supporter.
I also agree with the changing of the Glance in the Mirror power, there already is an ability concerning the Mirror and possible negative effects can't be acceptable, in my opinion.
The Strength of Mind ability will represent perfectly her formidable telepathic powers, capable of helping the people who need Hope and Courage, and revealing and repulsing the evil intentions of the enemies.

It's possible that her Foresight ability will only be available on level 7, since we are talking about the most powerful ability of that kind in the game  8-)

Galadriel is mainly a Hero Supporter, so, given her pivotal role in the whole faction (Lothlórien and Mirkwood), I hope that the Edain Team will make her abilities really useful and decisive for your heroes; she is the most powerful and expensive hero of her faction, she has to be necessarily fundamental and 'attractive' as all the leaders of the other factions.
Galadriel is the Guardian of Lothlórien and protects her realm (units, heroes and structures) with her Magic and Nenya  :)

Regarding her primary attack against units, I hope that she will have her conceptual and characteristic white blast from distance with a knock back effect (as in the Edain Mod 3.8.1); Alatar's previous attack is interesting, a knock back effect from distance, but I don't think she should attack units also with Wind, because she will already use a Storm effect against structures (and the difference of her primary attack is indeed what makes her unique)  :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 8. Aug 2015, 22:15
I've expanded the first page about her two ring hero forms. Tomorrow I'll post some more comments. :P
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Aug 2015, 01:15
I've expanded the first page about her two ring hero forms. Tomorrow I'll post some more comments. :P

I like very much the concept of Blessed Galadriel, the fact that she gives resistance to Magic will make her really unique among the other Hero Supporters  :)

But, I must tell you, I definitely like more 'Memories of Laurelin and Telperion' than 'Light of Eärendil'  ;)
When Galadriel refuses the One Ring, she accepts her Destiny and she is more than ever closed to Valinor, emanating its Splendour (captured in her legendary hair).
The Two Trees of Valinor are the source of all the Splendour and Sorrows of the Ancient Times, source of the Silmarils and of the Sun and the Moon.

LAURELIN and TELPERION are EVERYTHING (by the way, the City in the background must be Valimar)  (**)

Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: CragLord am 9. Aug 2015, 01:37
Tiberius, your analysis/thread is one of the best I have ever read (if not the best).
My absolyte support, keep polishing this idea/topic. :)
Can't wait for that mini upgrades. :P  ;)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 9. Aug 2015, 21:21
Good job! I agree with you: the gift ability has to be available earlier.
I think that everyone here agreed. Cause in comparison with Sauron's influence or Dwarven rune keepers it has no sense to have this ability later than at level three.

I would just swap Vision in the mirror and Strength of mind
I don't. I think that in the middle should have something against enemy (although it will be only one ability against enemy) and it corresponds with her blessed form, who has skill against enemy at level five as well.

because I think the former abiltiy needs to come sooner, or at least not too late. Why? Because the longer the game lasts the more interesting is this spell: it's a pity to have to wait for a level 7 Galadriel to be able to start clearing the fog, right?
But we can say such argument about everything ... everything deserves to be sooner. :P
I've only compared it with Cirdan who has similar and very useful spell at level ten. Because that skill can be very useful in the multiplayer game and due to balance I've moved it at higher level.
And don't worry - it will have standard cooldown and radius is the like Elrond had in the vanilla game. It means that when you use that skill thrice on the map for two player - you will be able to see everything important.

Very interesting analysis, the Gifts of Lórien will be available sooner, making Galadriel immediately 'useful' for your heroes on the battlefield, in line with her role as a Hero Supporter.
Exactly. It was Tienety's idea. ;)

I also agree with the changing of the Glance in the Mirror power, there already is an ability concerning the Mirror and possible negative effects can't be acceptable, in my opinion.
The Strength of Mind ability will represent perfectly her formidable telepathic powers, capable of helping the people who need Hope and Courage, and revealing and repulsing the evil intentions of the enemies.
Yes, I really like it too. It's mix of effects but I removed bonus or negative effect for armour and attack - cause it has every hero ... I think skills recovering or "speed effect" represent skill much more better. :)
Also "Memory of Laurerin and Telperion" will be enhanced version of this spell. And mainly - she is still hero supporter, her role is the same, but at level 5 as a normal Galadriel and as a Galadriel blessed will have something against enemy.

It's possible that her Foresight ability will only be available on level 7, since we are talking about the most powerful ability of that kind in the game  8-)
I think so. It was second Tienety's idea. :P

Galadriel is mainly a Hero Supporter, so, given her pivotal role in the whole faction (Lothlórien and Mirkwood), I hope that the Edain Team will make her abilities really useful and decisive for your heroes; she is the most powerful and expensive hero of her faction, she has to be necessarily fundamental and 'attractive' as all the leaders of the other factions.
Galadriel is the Guardian of Lothlórien and protects her realm
Yes, honestly - she was always very problematic hero with problematic concept ... since ... since the first version. But it seems that we are finally on the very good way. :)

Regarding her primary attack against units, I hope that she will have her conceptual and characteristic white blast from distance with a knock back effect (as in the Edain Mod 3.8.1); Alatar's previous attack is interesting, a knock back effect from distance
Yes, Galadriel without knockback is like ... I don't know - Gandalf without wizard blast? She has knockback effect from the beginning and every important hero has knockback attack - Witch king, Sauron etc. and in the Lorien only Grimbeorn will have such effect. And honestly - it's only effect, it's not supposed to be strong, but attractive. ;)

I like very much the concept of Blessed Galadriel, the fact that she gives resistance to Magic will make her really unique
Exactly - as I said bonus for attack/armor provides everyone and it won't be unique. Also in the Lorien Haldir will provide such kind of bonus and Thranduil will have very strong leadership. It fits for them - they are army leaders but not someone who is walking through the battlefiedl barefoot and with long robe.
Mainly - Tolkien described her as a
Zitat
Mistress of magic
so logically resistance to magic for her and for units fits perfectly. 8-)

But, I must tell you, I definitely like more 'Memories of Laurelin and Telperion' than 'Light of Eärendil'  ;)
When Galadriel refuses the One Ring, she accepts her Destiny and she is more than ever closed to Valinor, emanating its Splendour (captured in her legendary hair).
The Two Trees of Valinor are the source of all the Splendour and Sorrows of the Ancient Times, source of the Silmarils and of the Sun and the Moon.
Yes, why not. Nice reference to the First age.

My absolyte support, keep polishing this idea/topic. :)
your analysis/thread is one of the best I have ever read (if not the best).
Thanks. It's supposed to be. xD

Can't wait for that mini upgrades. :P  ;)
You are not alone. For instance me too  :P ...
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 9. Aug 2015, 22:00
Com'on, you got what I meant.  xD
Of course every relevant spell deserves to come sooner, but we're talking about a spell that can ultimately reveal the whole map. I mean the more you use this spell, the better it gets and that's why I think it deserves to come sooner.


Still, you have a point: it depends on the size that is revealed: if the area is as large as a castle, it would be brutally overpowered to get it early. On the contrary, I do believe that Vsiion in the Mirror and Strength of Mind need to be swapped.  ;)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 9. Aug 2015, 22:11
if the area is as large as a castle

That's reason why I think that player should wait little and play primarily with scouts.
Also as I said - she needs something against enemy heroes sooner (in the middle) - at least slow down them as I suggested in the "Strength of mind spell", because with her Aoe attack will be extremely vulnerable against heroes and monsters. It's logical - she can't deal with single and strong target.

By the way map revealing spell has nice kind of balance. xD
Against AI it's useless but in multiplayer game it can be very useful.

Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Aug 2015, 22:14

Still, you have a point: it depends on the size that is revealed: if the area is as large as a castle, it would be brutally overpowered to get it early.

Yes, I think you have answered yourself  :P
And I think it too this way.

But everybody here is obviously entitled to its own opinion  :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 12. Aug 2015, 06:03
I personally likr and support Tiberius ideas !I think that thanks to those ideas the Blessed Galadriel will be much more conceptual and connected with her Normal Form! :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Aug 2015, 16:04
I personally likr and support Tiberius ideas !I think that thanks to those ideas the Blessed Galadriel will be much more conceptual and connected with her Normal Form! :)

Exactly  :)
Galadriel accepts her Destiny, and thus will be far closer to the Undying Lands (ineluctable Return or Journey of the Elves to Valinor) than she has ever been.
She will display and resemble the Holy Light of the Two Trees with her power 'Memories of Laurelin and Telperion', and Nenya's powers will be stronger and have a longer duration  :)


Also, speaking about her Ring Forms, I am bit concerned about Dark/Sublime Galadriel and her role.
If she accepts the One Ring, she will be a terrible and far more powerful Building Destroyer, also due to her destructive powers; but I hope that also her primary attack will change then, since, in this case, she will necessarily have to be mainly effective against structures.
Speaking about structures, once Galadriel becomes the Dark Queen, the Ents (her faction's siege units) will refuse to obey to her, and thus Lothlórien could lose its potential in Siege, apart from the destructive abilities of the Dark Queen.

Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 16. Aug 2015, 20:03
I've just thinking about this design:


Any chance to implement it into the mod? No. xD
Or at least I personally don't know how and mainly how that design or effect should look like or be detailed. But it's definitely pretty cool design of her. That's a pitty that such form didn't remain for struggle with Sauron ... instead of horrible look. 8-|
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 16. Aug 2015, 20:40
I really loved that strong look of her showing her ligh nature and powers I really wished that this is the Form they used to battle Sauron!It is so much better than that Drowned Dark look! :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: CragLord am 16. Aug 2015, 20:42
Me too, that was more reasonable idea in general, Light vs Dark. But Guillermo del Toro has done his job. :P :D
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Aug 2015, 20:45
i rly dont know why the fak she screams at radagast like that was that rly necessary???
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Aug 2015, 21:33
i rly dont know why the fak she screams at radagast like that was that rly necessary???

You're right.
Gandalf, an Istar sent by the Valar to Middle Earth to help the Free People, was 'only' risking his Life in a dark and terrible Fortress in ruin.

And, most importantly, Galadriel was 'only' aware that she would have had to confront Sauron.
You know, Sauron, arguably the most powerful Maia and Servant of Melkor/Morgoth since the Years of the Lamps; keeper of Angband and then, in the First Age, Lord of the Werewolves and Vampires.
Creator of the One Ring, Dark Lord and Author of the Destruction of Númenor and of the great Cataclysm which changed forever the Shape of the World in the Second Age.

Yes...
That scream was really unnecessary  8-|
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Aug 2015, 23:08


i jsut think it was an overreaction she screams at radagast and he s scared shitless :D xD
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Aug 2015, 23:29

i jsut think it was an overreaction she screams at radagast and he s scared shitless :D xD

I think it was the opposite thing  :)
Knowing Sauron very much, she was just really, really worried for the Life of the Two Istari.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Aug 2015, 23:49
if you put it this way is i wanna go with this thanks
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Aug 2015, 00:04
if you put it this way is i wanna go with this thanks

Galadriel has always had a 'special' relationship with Gandalf.
She indicated him as the chief of the White Council, when this institution was created, and always knew that Gandalf would have necessarily been destined to be the head and most powerful among the Istari, the one who would have guided the Free People of Middle Earth to Victory.
As both Manwë and Varda always knew that he, the least powerful in appearance, would have been the Leader of all the other Wizards, for his incredible Wisdom and Good Will.
Also, being Olórin (the name of Gandalf as a Maia in Valinor) a Maia of the People of the Vala Irmo, Galadriel may have already met him in Valinor, since she used to attend as well the Gardens of Irmo in the Years of the Trees.

There are a lot of elements in Tolkien's writings about this special and deep Relationship.
Something that, I personally think, the Hobbit Trilogy succeeded to represent  :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 20. Aug 2015, 07:06
I really wish that Tolkien lived more to finish or at least expand his World and characters,but I really like Gandalf(and Ian Mackellen is.perfect Gandalf)and his relationship with Galadriel and really The Hobbit Trilogy really showed that pretty good I loved their.conversations and scenes! :-) And PJ.presentation of Radagast really made me llike him as a character! :-)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 20. Aug 2015, 13:26
I really wish that Tolkien lived more to finish or at least expand his World and characters,but I really like Gandalf(and Ian Mackellen is.perfect Gandalf)and his relationship with Galadriel and really The Hobbit Trilogy really showed that pretty good I loved their.conversations and scenes! :-) And PJ.presentation of Radagast really made me llike him as a character! :-)

Tolkien hardly ever explains everything in detail and holistically concerning a lot of characters.
He always, though, gives us many hints and traces to follow, so that it's up to us to find the right 'key', with which we can look at and search through his wide Legendarium  ;)

Galadriel's life covers more than 8000 years (or more, according to another computation of Time), it obviously has many connections, for the Good and the Evil, with the greatest events and characters of Arda  :)

Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Darkslayer am 23. Aug 2015, 19:05

Eonwe > Sauron  :P
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Aug 2015, 19:24
Eonwe > Sauron  :P


True, since Sauron knelt to him, after the War of Wrath.

But, I have to warn you, this thread is not about Eönwë  :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: aminetude am 19. Okt 2015, 00:14
Hi, i want to make a suggestion about Galadriel. I know the elves aren't out yet and there is surely many things that we didnt see in the beta video review that will be added in the 4.2 patch. Anyway, here it is:
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 19. Okt 2015, 00:31
also, question for diewalkure: is it possible to remove that thread i created? or it should just remain closed?


Of course, if you really want to, I can delete it.

Even though, I honestly think that it should remain for a while, to redirect other people here, if they are interested in this topic, and, probably, as an indication for others who might be intended in the future to post some proposals and don't know if they have to open a new thread or post in an already-existing one  :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: aminetude am 19. Okt 2015, 12:14
But i repeat, the elves aren't out yet, so there is a big chance that the edain team come up with even a better more logical idea, wich will make mine look like crap haha. But if not, i hope they will consider reworking the attack FX, since now the EE has come, there is a lot of beautiful ideas they might integrate, and i hope changing galadriel's attack FX will be one of them.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: SP19XX am 29. Okt 2015, 15:30
To be honest the main issue I have with Galadriel is that her Gifts of Lorien and Vision of the Mirror should have their levels switched in my personal opinion.

The main reason is that the Gifts of Lorien are intended to enhance hero's and bring them to the pinnacle of their role, or even change their role once the game gets going, while being the key to the hero's strength. Having it on Level 7 makes it a late game skill that might be able to upgrade 1 or 2 heroes before it's use is over the ring is acquired. If it were at level 5, she then has a lot more time to upgrade her allies.

The reason for Vision into the Mirror actually also ties into the Gifts of Lorien as well. Right now, getting Vision into the Mirror at level 5 means that Galadriel can make Rumil and Orophin obsolete before they can be upgraded out of their scout role to become a prominent member of the attack force, while if the Gifts of Lorien were unlocked first, by the time she acquires access to Vision into the Mirror, both Rumil and Orophin could have been upgraded allowing them to fit into another role while Galadriel then takes over the scout role, in addition to her other roles, due to being able to clear the fog. Not to mention in quite a lot of cases being able to keep a constant eye on the enemy can be a lot more effective than an upgrade to skills, armour, damage, etc.

There only other issue I have is that Galadriel taking the Ring preventing the training of Ents or Mirkwood Units seems to be much harsher than it should since Lorien then has just 1 building that can generate units outside of those, given that Mirkwood is their only outpost build option.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 29. Okt 2015, 15:35
Completely agree about the swap part.
Yet, Lorien has actually two buildings that can train units outside of their base: you forgot the Beorning Hut. Plus if I'm not mistaking you'lle be able to build a standard outpost.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 29. Okt 2015, 15:50
yes and the beorning hut makes money too
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 29. Okt 2015, 19:36
Zitat
Plus if I'm not mistaking you'lle be able to build a standard outpost.
Unfortunately you are mistaken. ;)
This is not only because of some lore reasons (like Imladris Lorien didn't expand in the WotR), but has one technical reason, because you can't define two expansion outposts (= central buildings which spawn new build plots) for one outpost (or in general).

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 29. Okt 2015, 19:49
Didn't ET say that they were going to add an outpost for every faction eventually? I thought EA said so somewhere on Moddb. Some clarification would be appreciated, if possible.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 29. Okt 2015, 21:54
There is a possibility for every faction to have more than one outpost, but not every faction absolutely has to have more than one just for the sake of it (Rohan comes to mind, but it's the same for Lorien). Maybe they will come up with an idea themselves at some point, maybe someone from the community will present a nice concept, maybe it just stays the same. Who knows? ;)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 29. Okt 2015, 23:11
Just to be perfectly clear: I was only talking about that Lorien currently doesn't have a regular / normal outpost (citadel + 3 build plots where you build your regular stuff -like Rohan's outpost, Gondor's regular outpost and so on) and that it seems to be impossible to create two buildings surrounded by build plots at the same place!
In Lorien's case they already have this outpost because the Mirkwood thingy has 4 surrounding build plots. Therefore you simply can't include such a regular Lorien outpost which of course does in no way foil the idea of creating a second build option for Lorien's outpost.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Bogdan Hmel am 11. Nov 2015, 13:27
 Galadriel must be able to defend against enemy heroes. Because  have both Galadriel and Celeborn too expensive.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 11. Nov 2015, 16:53
But then there would be no counterplay to Galadriel. ;)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 11. Nov 2015, 17:40
i think she needs to protect herself because her attacks are not that strong so when she goes one on one with a hero she usually looses  so i think she needs a buff
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 11. Nov 2015, 17:50
She is not meant to protect herself.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Bogdan Hmel am 11. Nov 2015, 18:55
 But you pay for Galadriel 3000 and you may not have even 2200 to buy Celeborn and defend her against enemy heroes.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Nov 2015, 16:12
i think she needs to protect herself because her attacks are not that strong so when she goes one on one with a hero she usually looses  so i think she needs a buff


But you pay for Galadriel 3000 and you may not have even 2200 to buy Celeborn and defend her against enemy heroes.


Keep in mind that, as others already pointed out, her role is mainly and primarily supportive, and this was a great change from her previous concept of the Edain Mod 3.8.1, where I always found her a bit 'out of place' and not so defined as a Hero.
Her abilities and her ranged attack exactly serve this purpose.

Therefore, I believe that she should always be used behind your own lines, not only protected by Celeborn, but also by all the surrounding units, as she is the Ruler of her faction, and she inevitably must be defended.
For example, I always give this 'duty' to the Caras Galadhon Guardians, as if they were her personal 'Royal Guard'  :P

Nevertheless, I too think that, to be the Leader and theoretically the most powerful Hero of her faction, she still lacks something, although she is already very unique and conceptual herself.
That's why I'm gathering ideas for possible chances of improvement and implementation of other unique and conceptual aspects, and I think that I will post some proposals in the future.
But, they are 'top secret', for now  xD
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 14. Nov 2015, 02:01
Could we make Galadriel level similar to how sauron levels? I feel like that is more in line with her unit supporting nature, it seems weird to have her as a more front lines hero in her dress.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 14. Nov 2015, 13:01
agree
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Nov 2015, 15:53
Could we make Galadriel level similar to how sauron levels? I feel like that is more in line with her unit supporting nature, it seems weird to have her as a more front lines hero in her dress.


I'm absolutely against it.

Not only does Sauron level up by 'external actions' not caused directly by him, since he has to recollect his Power via the specific tasks of his Servants, but also this specific system symbolises how Sauron consequently determines with his influence the power (and the very 'vital force' if we talk about the Nazgûl) of his minions.
As Tolkien writes in LOTR, once the One Ring was destroyed and Sauron defeated, every dark creature under his control was deprived of its strength, evil determination and will of fighting.

If we take into consideration Galadriel, that's not how things work regarding her Power.
Galadriel's (and Nenya's) Magic primarily involves the physical environment in which she dwells, turning it into a sacred and DEFENSIVE shelter, and, then, it obviously influences all the people living in there via the creation of a never ending quiet atmosphere of calmness and protection, inviolable by any ill will.

But, this doesn't mean that the Elves of Lórien inevitably depends on her powers, like the Servants of Mordor are subdued to the powers of Sauron/the One Ring.
And Galadriel herself is not necessarily and physically bound to the people she governs, neither does she need to regain part of her lost abilities, as her Power basically remained unaltered (or it was maybe even enhanced in the late Third Age) throughout more than 7000 years of permanence in Middle Earth  :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: IronSkye am 23. Nov 2015, 13:43

Oh I totally agree, I couldn't have said it better.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: CragLord am 23. Nov 2015, 19:18
Simply Galadriel and Sauron didn't use their power during ages in same way, they are very different "rulers" in their realms, so I agree with DieWalküre and I am also against this proposal or change in general.

Regards,
Crag 
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 23. Nov 2015, 22:43
but what if make her lvl up in some other way ??? more unique one
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Nov 2015, 23:58
but what if make her lvl up in some other way ??? more unique one


There are not many other possibilities left, though.
Although her 'new' (in the Edain Mod 4.0) supportive role, it doesn't mean that she can't attack at all, also, being her even a Building Destroyer, I think that she must necessarily join her people on the battlefield as their Leader, not obviously in the very frontline, and unleash her true characteristic potential  8-)

This is how I personally see things, and it would be a pity if her role were changed for something more supportive and 'detached' than she currently is.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 24. Nov 2015, 00:11
well she can attack form very far far away kinda like a siege unit with her magic and all this will help her to stay away from enemy s and when she get the ring and becomes dark her attack should become more closer one what do you think ???   
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Nov 2015, 00:31
well she can attack form very far far away kinda like a siege unit with her magic and all this will help her to stay away from enemy s and when she get the ring and becomes dark her attack should become more closer one what do you think ???


Galadriel already has a quite wide ranged attack, not to mention that she kind of already uses her Magic from afar, having the most powerful Foresight ability in the game.

I fear that a proposal like this could be very problematic for the gameplay and definitely unbalanced, as she would be too much advantaged, neither would she be very enjoyable to play, remaining always in the Castle and renouncing her natural and active role as the most powerful hero of the faction.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 24. Nov 2015, 00:55
well i think she dose not do that much of dmg when she s galadriel and galadriel the blessed the necromancer can kill her with ease 
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 24. Nov 2015, 01:06
How? :o
He deals like zero damage on his own, at least vs. strong troops. I might as well underestimate his damage against heroes, but isn't he more of a spamm-counter / really weak attacker whose strength lies in his abilities? Also the last time I played Galadriel her basic attacks could oneshot unupgraded rohirrim (she was level 10, but for a ranged support hero with splash damage, this is pretty strong), so I wouldn't consider her attacks weak.
Also, this is a real strange balance argument: X is weaker than Y who is completely different and not similar in any way. Therefore X must get a buff? :D

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 24. Nov 2015, 13:00
+1
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 24. Nov 2015, 20:08
I didn't mean for her to level up exactly like Sauron, merely that it feels off to me to have her gaining levels by killing enemy units instead of acting to protect her people and realm (and not by just killing them...). I would like to see her made into a far, far less offensive unit, one that you just bring in to destroy buildings, not to kill hundreds of units. Maybe give her basically no base attack, instead let her have a magical shield that repels and knocks down enemy units. Give her a healing spell like the old samesingers, and have her level by granting her blessing and gifts on units, heroes and buildings. I realize she would be a force to reckon with on the battlefield if she chose to take up a sword and fight, but that doesn't fit her actions of mainly being a passive protector, her only real offensive action was to destroy Dol Guldur, and even then I don't think we should imagine that she was storming the stronghold like she does in the movies, barefoot and unarmed.
You might disagree and still want offensive Galadriel, but I just feel like it is contrary to how tolkien has written her, not as a great warrior, but as a great protector.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 24. Nov 2015, 20:21
awesome idea sir stig +1
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: SP19XX am 25. Nov 2015, 02:36
The difference between Sauron and Galadriel though is that Sauron could not take a direct part in the war of the ring because his strength had been diminished from his downfall at the end of the 2nd Age. The leveling system for Sauron that's in place represents his actions throughout the war of the ring. Taking indirect action in an attempt to gather back his full strength with Mordor having a weak early game, but becoming one of if not the strongest faction in the late game once Sauron begins to reach the peak of his lost power, which fits him nicely and is a perfect representation of his actions in the 3rd Age.

Galadriel on the other hand was never confined to Lothlorien. In fact on quite a few occasions she left the realm for brief instances. Not to mention it was her own choice to act as a protector, however nothing at all was stopping her from using Nenya as a weapon, she instead chose to use it to protect Lothlorien but she was never forced to remain there.

I just think a system like that wouldn't actually be a great representation of Galadriel. Unlike Sauron who was FORCED to use indirect actions in an attempt to regain the power he had lost Galadriel was never in a position like that. She could have used Nenya as a weapon or left Lothlorien to pursue a direct part in the war at any given moment as was proven when she assaulted Dol Guldur with Thranduil and tore it to pieces with Nenya's power, after repelling three attacks against both Lorien and Mirkwood with it.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: CragLord am 25. Nov 2015, 03:23
Well, I understand your point of view Sir Stig, but you must also be aware of current situation in Lorien concerning Galadriel's role and roles distribution in general.
First, I think you can't use her as weapon for killing hundreds of enemies (maybe if she accepts ring), and mainly she is used as building destroyer, which fits in her possibilities  from lore, I think this is used from info that she cleansed Dol Guldur almost by herself. Other memebers of White Concil were as mini support, and concerning that statement of barefoot and unarmed I can say you have probably right, but what kind of new skin you will suggest for her, to have armor? Armored Skin? I am not so found of it no matter how it looks, simply in my mind she is fairy capable of defending herself without that armor. She has great power in domen of defensive magic so I think in this way. Maybe I am wrong but it is my opinion) And if you want to use her in proper way, you simply won't use her in offensive way as first front of battle, she will always be at back, behind soldiers, doing her magic. So in my opinion she isn't offensive at all against units (I am refering about normal form in general).
I agree that she should be ruler and protector, but because of distribution of  roles in current situation I understand team decision to make her as she is in this situation, and I really don't have something great to complain about it.
She has all support abilities (almost except fear based one) in blessed and normal form, so I really don't see some big problem there with her offensive nature.
Her leveling system, no exp from killing enemies sounds reasonable, but I don't have problem with this also. After all no matter how fairy she looks, she is Ñoldor princess capable for doing scary things. :)
When I took everything into consideration, I think current implementation of Galadriel present nice balance between lore and game needs. And because of that I am not for any change. :)

Kind regards,
CragLord

Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 25. Nov 2015, 19:44
My main problem is that she levels by killing things, I just want a way for her to level without having to kill things. By the time you build her and get her to level 7 the game is basically over.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 30. Nov 2015, 16:40

The gameplay-related points I remarked in my previous comments exactly explain why it wouldn't be wise 'relegating' and binding Galadriel to a so strict supportive role, inevitably colliding with her status as the most powerful hero of the faction.
Her attack is meant to represent a widespread spell that obviously involves more than one unit; being it a very particular and unique type of attack among the other Elven Heroes, I really think that it's instead very suitable for her.

If you are a bit concerned about Galadriel picking open fights like a 'regular offensive' hero, then you should consider that this issue was solved in the Edain Mod 4.0, as in the 3.8.1 version she indeed seemed a bit out of place with her problematic role as a sort of tank (attacking directly) with mainly supportive abilities.

So, a less offensive role wouldn't have so much sense, as Galadriel already is a mainly supportive hero.
Some of your suggestions (like the magical shield) could bring things to the extreme side, like a very strict and imperative defensive role (that Galadriel doesn't need at all).

And, now, the cherry on top of the cake.
Those statements about Galadriel's role in the War of the Ring and her act towards Dol Guldur have really been a direct wound to me  [ugly]

Galadriel was anything but 'passive' during the War of the Ring.
In the books you will find many passages that clearly state that without her personal presence and powers Lothlórien would have ineluctably fallen either by the Enemy or the Time.
Tolkien specifically tells us that it was due to the power of Nenya (therefore Galadriel) that the three assaults against Lórien were repulsed, although the Galadhrim indeed fought bravely for their land.
You should always consider that the 'general mechanics' (War, defence, ruling, power) of enchanted kingdoms as Lothlórien are definitely different from the common (mainly human) kingdoms', since they greatly differ in Nature.

A similar thing can be applied also for her actions in Dol Guldur, not only significant for the War, but also symbolic as they resembled what Lúthien did in the First Age with another fortress of Sauron.
Galadriel should indeed be pictured walking barefoot and 'unarmed' while she storms that place with many possible varieties of destructive powers like shockwaves, dreadful weather-related phenomena, gates and walls crumbling at her presence or a mix of all these things, easily justified by what we know about this more-than-8000-year-old Noldorin Princess from Immortal Lands.

And, remember, Dol Guldur is an enchanted place, permeated by the dark power of Sauron.
Magic can most of the times be effectively countered only by Magic as well  8-)
This is a recurrent theme in the Tolkien's writings.

Titel: Gaze of Galadriel in Good ring hero form
Beitrag von: Saruman_the_wise am 13. Dez 2015, 03:26
Hello all I've always felt it strange that one of the greatest scouting abilities in game is taken away from Galadriel upon her rejecting the ring if anything it should improve the ability (which is not what i'm asking sort of) I know you want to keep it to no duo command sets which I find is much better as well but why not when she rejects the one ring galadriels fear ability "Gaze of Galadriel" and "Far sight or power of the seer" be combined and called "Gaze of the Elf Queen" or some thing there by improving the two abilities by making the fear stun cast-able across the entire map and retaining the very useful permanent far sight while giving it a little "kick" otherwise rejecting the ring especially early game is a double edged sword some thing which it should not be since that's the main idea about accepting the ring for all good heroes ( except Gandalf the white but he's a maiar so big difference)
Titel: Re: Gaze of Galadriel in Good ring hero form
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 13. Dez 2015, 04:59
I agree with this but i think that they should instead combine the effect so the player has either the choice to reveal a new location or scare enemy units in a already known location
Titel: Re: Gaze of Galadriel in Good ring hero form
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Dez 2015, 14:00
So, if I understood well, an extensive power that combines the previous Foresight and Fear one in a unique ability?

It honestly sounds like an interesting idea, and very suitable and legitimate for Blessed Galadriel.
Also because, technically, her role as a Hero Supporter/Building Destroyer doesn't change much if she rejects the One Ring, if not being expanded to units as well with her holy aura.

P.S. I will merge this thread with the main Galadriel one, as I don't see any reason why the discussion should be fragmented  :)

MERGED with: http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31332.msg400355.html#msg400355
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Saruman_the_wise am 13. Dez 2015, 16:20
that's all right I didn't really know where to put was just afraid it might get lost here and i'm glad you like the idea ! I only hope ET does as well
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 3. Feb 2016, 19:04
The post is a bit old but it relates to any Galadriel-suggestion thing so I'll take a risk and bump it. This is something that struck me during a friendly game. Once blessed Galadriel gains the  Memories of Laurelin and Telperion and retains the glare of Galadriel. The thing is that these abilities are very similar the only difference is that while the  Memories of Laurelin and Telperion stuns the enemy troops the Glare makes them flee in terror. I was just thinking that they could be merged keeping either of the two effects and then reintroducing Power of the Seer with maybe an increased range. This would I think allow one of the greatest scouting/spying abilities to be possible to keep throughout the whole game.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 6. Feb 2016, 11:52
The post is a bit old but it relates to any Galadriel-suggestion thing so I'll take a risk and bump it. This is something that struck me during a friendly game. Once blessed Galadriel gains the  Memories of Laurelin and Telperion and retains the glare of Galadriel. The thing is that these abilities are very similar the only difference is that while the  Memories of Laurelin and Telperion stuns the enemy troops the Glare makes them flee in terror. I was just thinking that they could be merged keeping either of the two effects and then reintroducing Power of the Seer with maybe an increased range. This would I think allow one of the greatest scouting/spying abilities to be possible to keep throughout the whole game.


Don't worry, I think that this thread could be rightly and legitimately regarded as the 'supreme thread' for anything referred to Galadriel.
Therefore, you are more than welcome  :)

Yes, those two powers could be easily merged without any type of radical change in the conceptual field of her character.
And, it's true again that the Power of the Seer ability would still fit her blessed form anyway, being the telepathic/foresight powers of Galadriel a sort of constant trait of hers among her deeds in the War of the Ring; even though one could argue that achieving control of a Ring Hero is something that often happens in the late game, when the player has theoretically had all the time to expand its sight via the above-mentioned powers.

Besides, I personally think that Blessed Galadriel still misses something, and that she's not conceptually 'completed' yet.
So, we might gather further ideas about this matter, if you want, in order to find a more suitable equilibrium and conceptual harmony regarding her character  ;)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 8. Feb 2016, 16:00
I personally agree that Gaze of Galadriel should be replaced or merged by/with Power of the Seer for 'Blessed Galadriel". It doesn't counteract any precedent or lore set for her, and on a simply gameplay note, I find Power of the Seer far more useful then Gaze, particularly since its Lorien's only scouting ability.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 8. Feb 2016, 16:40
I really like Vector's idea of Blessed Galadriel having Gaze of Galadriel merged with Power of the Seer.  Having units cower in fear for about 5 seconds would make it seem like they are afraid of Galadriel, similar to how Frodo slows down when Galadriel is telepathically talking to him when he enters Lothlorien in the Movies.  And Frodo is very courageous, so it would have a stronger effect on normal soldiers. 
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Feb 2016, 13:18
Albeit what I previously suggested, I think that Gaze of Galadriel and Power of the Seer couldn't be exactly merged, as they are about too different powers/aspects (immobilising units and foresight on the other side).
Also, that foresight ability is not currently available for Blessed Galadriel, as we were discussing about; so, I would stress the importance of letting her gain back this previous ability, given that her role doesn't change so much if she rejects the One Ring (if not more effective supporting abilities), thus still relying on ranged characteristics.

Therefore, as I wrote above in response to the Necromancer, it would rather seem more reasonable merging the Gaze of Galadriel spell with Memory of Laurelin and Telperion in my opinion, letting the latter replace naturally the former, being of a mightier status and impact (her gaze 'just' immobilises units, while the remembrance of the Two Trees blocks them as well as heavily wounding heroes and turning trolls into stone).
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Bogdan Hmel am 20. Apr 2016, 14:05
A small suggestion for Galadriel. I propose to make available the ability to "Glance in the mirror" on the fourth level.
I think that the seventh level is too much for the skill that operates randomly. In my last game I got three consecutive red sign.
This skill is used on the heroes, but the seventh level of Galadriel's possible to get closer to the late game. In the late game heroes do not play a decisive role.
Moreover, the hero, whose cost is 3000, may have earlier access to their abilities. Her abilities opens on 1, 3, 5, 7 and 10 levels, too boring and standard))
Sorry for my english)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 20. Apr 2016, 14:30
How about we remove the RNG from Galadriel altogether by removing the annoying and pointless red mirror effect?

That is much simpler and it would solve the only issue with Galadriel that I see.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 20. Apr 2016, 15:03
The Glance in the Mirror ability is a very lore accurate aspect, referred to the Lady of Light's known foreseeing powers; as she says, the Mirror can show many things, and it's up to the single person to understand the inner meaning of what is shown (finding relief with Hope) or to be discouraged by the possible events that might happen (feeling Despair).

Nevertheless, returning to gameplay matters, I agree with the main reasons of your considerations. I honestly never liked this ability, mainly because I feel that Gifts of Lórien already defines Galadriel's Hero Supporter nature so well; and, as you two pointed out as well, it's pretty unacceptable that the leader of the whole faction might cause negative effects with a level 7 power. Thus, I'm too in favour of the removal of this disturbing implication and of a total 'positive conversion' of Glance in the Mirror. This is probably the only weakness in Galadriel's current hero mechanics.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 20. Apr 2016, 15:26
I am glad we agree Walk. The gameplay experience could be enhanced significantly both for the competitive and the casual players if we could remove all the Random Number Generator mechanics that are still present in the mod, such as the Dwarven Greed and Galadriel's level 7 glance in the mirror ability.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 20. Apr 2016, 16:33
Well, I would say that Glance in the Mirrior isn't as risky as using greed is, because while you are at risk when you use Glance in the Mirrior, the reward that you could get is incredibly powerful.  For Greed, the risk is too high, and the reward not high enough, at least in my opinion.

Though I do agree that the RNG should be removed from Glance of the Mirrior for gameplay reasons. 
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Jul 2016, 15:55
I really think it would be better to move this discussion here, so that a very interesting concept might be eventually found  :)

Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 18. Jul 2016, 00:45
I think it would be very interesting indeed to give Galadriel such a in-between form as you have sketched. However, I have some problems with the portrayal of it in the movies.

In the book LOTR it is described as if Galadrieo briefly shows what kind of power she could be, and this can be interpreted as not so much a vision in the minds of Frodo and Sam, but also as a temporary change of appearance. What PJ did in the FOTR is exactly the kind of power that is described in the book, with which I completely agree, but what he did next in BOTFA was awful in my eyes, especially the way Galadriel was portrayed as very crazy and powerful whenever she feels like it. This is not in line with the power she shows briefly in the LOTR.

These are just my thoughts on the issue. Quite problematic because I think Galadriel would do well with some extra powers, but on the other hand there is this inconsistency between the books and the films.

Adding a bit to the discussion regarding her powers (I am changing my standpoint to 'in favour' here) I think it's crucial that this separate form that is clearly much stronger offensively should have a high cost in the form of Health Points, for example. Just like the Necromancer she could have a separate stance that allows these powers to be used but it gives her only two abilities:

1) (Passive) Galadriel does more damage to single targets from a much closer range (but not melee) at the cost of hit points for every attack, with possible inclusion of debuff for hit enemies or even areal debuff to ALL nearby units.
2) Banishment (active) - at a high cost of health points (50-75%) Galadriel scares away enemy units while enemy heroes are unable to attack for very short amount of time

The idea behind this was the fact that it costs Galadriel a lot of energy to conjure these powers (either actually heavy or dramatically increased heavy) as seen in BOTFA.
The stances system disappears, however, when Galadriel chooses to accept or deny the Ring, and become the Dark Queen or The Blessed consequently. I believe this makes sense as she has chosen to become 'holy' or embrace her dark side.

I hope this post was not too confusing ;)

Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Jul 2016, 03:56
First of all, thank you for having decided to participate in the debate. Your post was very clear and much fruitful to discuss some interesting points about  :)

More or less, I agree with you about the cinematographic portrayal in BOTFA. As I wrote myself in that initial post, this aspect is quite controversial and fiercely criticised by many fans of both the actual lore (mainly books) and the films. If you have some time to spend, I sincerely recommend you visit the Prancing Pony section of this forum, where you can find so many discussions about 'Seaweed' or 'Drowned' Galadriel and the concept's accurate/possible or inaccurate consistency with Tolkien's view (I have defended WETA's and PJ's portrayal of hers numerous times, presenting some lore facts and arguing clearly my position). In spite of the fact that not even her mirror sequence in FOTR is theoretically so much respectful of the main source (Galadriel was intentionally made a bit 'enigmatic' and subtly insidious by PJ), what I believe is that she would have been well able to temporarily banish the severely-weakened Sauron from Dol Guldur, assuming some sort of offensive form (the actual appearance is very much to be questioned though).

I do have evidences that her initial portrayal was really not intended to be that grotesque: I found some non-CGI images of her that could be viewed as a just compromise between the explosion of power that she conveys and the need of making her scarier and darker to adapt to that special context. Unfortunately, I recently changed PC and lost those pictures; but I will surely take time to retrieve them again from the unexplored width of the Internet. Nevertheless, pictures or not, Seaweed Galadriel has logical purposes behind her atypical concept, based on the specific BOTFA film-lore that PJ and the writers make usage of for their script: that is, once she steps out in Dol Guldur to save Gandalf, she rapidly has her powers and sacred aura being gradually drained by the poisonous influence of that dark fortress and by the action of Sauron himself, who, as a beacon, attracts and pulls out her latent obscure ambitions (as I stated, not necessarily evil, but obscure anyway). This is something PJ, Philippa Boyens and another writer explained exhaustively in a making-of video concerning the White Council sequence.

Adding to that, in another part of the video, Philippa Boyens (one of the main three writers of LOTR and the Hobbit, along with PJ and his wife) confirms that Galadriel loses plenty of her powers in banishing Sauron, and that's why she consequently appears a bit 'detached' in LOTR. Now, given that this last statement is really not so much loyal to the lore (Galadriel, in fact, is author of pivotal deeds in the War of the Ring), I nonetheless wanted to explore this 'weakening' motive more deeply, ending up with deciding to slow her movements down whenever she chooses to take that form (for the amount of power that she has to bear). Following this premise, I really like the suggestions you made about health and other possible consequences. Although the concept itself is still at its very first stage, this relevant theme could be a solid base to start from indeed.

Another point I also want to make clear again is the conceptual necessity of making this stance option a very temporary and drastic solution for dangerous situations, where her safety is really at risk by the action of heroes and monsters in particular. Otherwise, this feature would become just a poorer version of the Dark Queen, without any real logic of gameplay and balance, given that she is supposed to remain in her ethereal and supportive form most of the time.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 19. Jul 2016, 18:07
Just got an idea, Walk: what about a compromise between my concept and yours? Explanation:

When Galadriel activates her "Terrible form", she will have the skills of my concept, but it will use them through her Phial. The time she can be in her Terrible Form is very limited (but it increases as she levels up)

When becoming Holy, she loses this stance (she doesn't need it anymore). To make her Terrible Form less accessible, there are two requirements: the cooldown, of course (which is very long, though it decreases as she levels up) and the main one, her health. What if she can activate her Terrible Form when her health is below 33%? Why this?

Let's consider the only two times we have seen (on the big screen) her Terrible Form. The first one is in LOTR. But that may be just a demo of her real powers, and it may have been induced by the presence of the Ring

When she really makes use of her Terrible Form is in Dol Guldur. In fact, just moments before to activate it, she was lying on the ground, drained of life force from the poisonous presence of Sauron in the fortress. Then she mightly stands up and banishes him from Dol Guldur, although she's been able to remain in that form just for a bunch of seconds. So here's the new concept

When Galadriel's health is below 33% and the ability has recharged, she can activate her Terrible Form, during which she will move very slowly, debuff and scare ALL nearby units and knock down and debuff even more enemies struck by her attacks. Her abilities will rather be performed through her Phial, and will be the following:

1. Gaze of Terrible Galadriel - ALL nearby units and heroes will have -10% damage and armor. Enemies struck by her ordinary attacks will be weakened by an additional -10% damage and armor malus, and will be knocked down. Passive ability
2. You have no power here! - Resets the counters of the chosen enemy hero's abilities to "just used" (same effect of the Witch-king's ability). Requires level 4
3. You are formless! - For a medium period of time, the chosen enemy hero will deal no damage. Requires level 7
4. Foundations of the earth - It summons a small earthquake on a nearby building. Galadriel's old classic. Requires level 9
5. Banishment - The chosen enemy hero will be instantly teleported to the closest allied base, and will be unable to do anything for an extended period of time. This ability has a long cooldown, and it's a mighty disrupting ability to compensate for not being able to use Nenya in her Terrible Form. Requires level 10

To balance the ability, when she's on her Terrible Form her Armor is considerably raised, and as soon as she switches back to her normal self, she won't be able to do anything for 5 or 10 seconds (some sort of "recovery time", as we saw in BOTFA). This will put her in a risky situation whenever her health is low: will she sacrifice movement speed in exchange of awesome powers, but risking to be killed in the aftermath recovery, or will she simply run away?
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Jul 2016, 00:00
Thank you very much, DrHouse, for your input. There are certain elements that I don't completely agree with, but your ideas were nonetheless very interesting, and absolutely useful to refine some aspects I had in mind  :)

The whole weakening theme of this proposal can now be dealt with much more properly, in the light of your own considerations. Making the option available at 30% of health is undoubtedly a good means, via which that said form is both not available at any time and exactly symbolises its utility in dangerous situations that may put Galadriel in serious danger. I must say I substantially appreciate this side of the concept.

What leaves me a bit doubtful, though, is the quite disproportionate number of powers that you proposed. I think the most appropriate solution is granting her only two abilities: a passive aura that has negative effects on units and heroes (mainly speed, armour and attack) and the banishment power at level 10 (terror on all types of units and heroes, while she momentarily disables their own powers). In these terms, I guess we can find a just balance between her need to defend herself in critical contexts and the fact that she is supposed to remain in her normal ethereal appearance most of the time. Of course, this is my personal opinion, and I'm always looking forward to other people's contributions to the matter, in order to find a decently satisfying compromise among different views.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Fredius am 7. Aug 2016, 22:53
So I just read your suggestions, and to sum it up I for the most part agree with Dr.House's concept. I'm not fond of giving her only those two abilities you proposed Walk, because it doesn't really seem worth to risk losing Galadriel when the Terrible form runs out of time, during which she becomes very vulnerable. Also shouldn't the terrible form show how strong she is when going all-offensive? Just a negative effect on enemies and a terror attack doesn't really reflect on how strong she actually can be; not to mention the fact that she already has a terror attack when in light form.

Now, about the powers which Dr.House propsed, I mostly agree with them. However, personally I find the "reset abilities timer" power kinda unnecessary. How can you even predict when a hero has used his powers, especially when you fight against AI [ugly]? I think combining that power with "You are formless!" should do it more justice.

"Banishment" seems to be a little tricky; if the player is already besieging the enemy base, wouldn't it be a bit weird to "banish" the hero back to the nearest base, when he is already fighting there? It's like Galadriel trying to banish Sauron in Dol Guldur like in the movie, but instead of banishing him to Mordor, he just moves to another spot in the fortress. That's pretty hilarious if I think about it :D. To be honest I can't think of any alternative effect at the moment, and I'm not really against this power, since it also disables the hero completely for a little while, so I'm all fine with it. It just has a funny side-effect on it :P.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Aug 2016, 21:28
Ok, after your very precious contributions, I decided to refine the whole concept a bit. The general guidelines and premises will nonetheless remain the same though; that is, the core conceptual arguments and lore structure that justify the very existence of this feature in the game.

ANCIENT MIGHT OF GALADRIEL

The heart of the concept

Zitat
My concept is mainly fashioned on what we see in BOTFA, during the banishment of Sauron. A controversial interpretation that both received praises for being innovative and a lot of criticism for its evident grotesque (if not macabre) touch. Nevertheless, left aside film-related debates, my ideas are centred on that aspect: Seaweed Galadriel. A form and a display of power that neither represents the 'normal' nature of Galadriel, nor does it come close to her having accepted the One Ring and thus becoming the Dark Queen of Middle Earth. A truly 'medium' appearance between the White (normal) and the Darkness (Dark Queen); symbolising that, albeit the sacred prowess of the Lady of Light, she has not been tested yet and so maintains in her heart deep ambitions of power (what has characterised her since her departure from Aman for this very reason). Her renowned ambition is quite far to be evil (given that she doesn't seek power by violent and subduing means), but it undoubtedly holds something obscure and dark about it. As DrHouse already pointed out fairly: dark sides of her personality and inner might.

I do have evidences that her initial portrayal was really not intended to be that grotesque: I found some non-CGI images portraying that could be viewed as a just compromise between the explosion of power that she conveys and the need of making her scarier and darker to adapt to that special context. Nevertheless, pictures or not, Seaweed Galadriel has logical purposes behind her atypical concept, based on the specific BOTFA film-lore that PJ and the writers make usage of for their script: that is, once she steps out in Dol Guldur to save Gandalf, she rapidly has her powers and sacred aura being gradually drained by the poisonous influence of that dark fortress and by the action of Sauron himself, who, as a beacon, attracts and pulls out her latent obscure ambitions which transform her in a sort of underwater spirit (as I stated, not necessarily evil, but obscure anyway). This is something PJ, Philippa Boyens and another writer explained exhaustively in a making-of video concerning the White Council sequence. The whole eerie environment thus functions as a transitional/transfiguration altar, in the sense that Galadriel is eventually tainted and absorbs part of the very place's properties (altering her proper essence).

An additional theme to deal with could be the supernatural might of the Eldar themselves. Their purest and rough magical potential, which is not always deemed so much holy by whom it involves. Men in the Third Age, just to present an example, feared magic in almost all its forms, because they could not completely understand its nature and due to the contrast between the mightiest Eldar's power and the disenchanted motive of Middle-earth. The Good made often usage of terrible and destructive devices to contest the Evil, as the Valar did in the wars against Melkor. Whenever I think about those multifaceted and more obscure characterisation of the Elves, my mind relates to this particular song (https://youtube.com/watch?v=UZd5WJ0EPiQ), which is one of the most important themes of the LOTR soundtrack: the great grief and regret of the Eldar for having unintentionally helped Sauron's schemes via the forging of the Rings of Power, although they had yearned the restoration in the mortal World of the unattainable bliss of Valinórë.

Adding to that, in another part of the video, Philippa Boyens (one of the main three writers of LOTR and the Hobbit, along with PJ and his wife) confirms that Galadriel loses plenty of her powers in banishing Sauron, and that's why she consequently appears a bit 'detached' in LOTR. Now, given that this last statement is really not so much loyal to the lore (Galadriel, in fact, is author of pivotal deeds in the War of the Ring), I nonetheless wanted to explore this 'weakening' motive more deeply, ending up with deciding to slow her movements down whenever she chooses to take that form (for the amount of power that she has to bear). Following this premise, I really like the suggestions you made about health and other possible consequences. Although the concept itself is still at its very first stage, this relevant theme could be a solid base to start from indeed.

Both accepting and refusing the One Ring will cause her to necessarily lose this stance system. Especially, becoming Blessed leads her to renounce to her ambitions and she hands over the phial to Frodo. Therefore, I don't think that she needs a stance system at all after taking the One Ring, but I had honestly not thought about possible concepts for her blessed form yet; henceforth, proposing that kind of features may be an option too. The core reasoning is that this will give her the possibility to have some chances to block and avoid units and heroes in dangerous contexts, without altering and disrupting her coherent role so much. Galadriel is also, along with Sauron, one of the most prominent and iconic heroes in the game, and I thus sincerely believe that she greatly deserves such unique stance system as the Lord of Mordor's (with all the due differences).


First of all, I think we can find a just compromise between our differing views, by basically merging some aspects of the proposed abilities and then reducing them to three. As I already pointed out above, what I deem vital is avoiding to make this stance-form a sort of poorer version of the Dark Queen, bearing in mind that the option we are discussing is primarily supposed to be used in very situational and emergency contexts (resulting in her acquiring a hero-interfer role and endurance against monsters). This defensive feature would nonetheless be legitimate for a 3000-resource heroine, who is the leader of Lothlórien and the mightiest Elf in the Third Age.

Furthermore, the stance-system is meant to twist her supportive abilities in interfering features, to mirror (with the due differences) what happens with Sauron: the concept of mutating nature/essence (appearance) and unlocking aggressive powers. Galadriel, as the Dark Lord's nemesis in Middle-earth, would thus have too the chance to show how much disruptive her prowess can be towards the enemies (and the shift to this more aggressive form would exactly be symbolised by her transformation).

That said, she is really not to become (even in that temporary form) a mass slayer option for her faction at all (thus, my opposition to disproportionate powers). This 'Seaweed' form is exactly set apart from any logic and reference involving the One Ring. As a conceptual note aside, I hope you appreciate the fact that her normal supportive properties would thus be inverted in deep interference and gloomy influence; just like her appearance does (symbolising the twist even more effectively).

Since I know that this thread has a natural proclivity in inspiring me to produce very long and intricate walls of text, I will so restrain myself a bit and opt for a synthetical exposition.

General Elements

The option Ancient Might will replace her stance system. In the whole duration of said form, she won't be capable of attacking both units and structures, and her movements will be slowed down severely. Always taking quite for granted that she should always need to be escorted by other heroes and troops, those collateral consequences are well compensated by the negative influence she casts.

The basic properties of Galadriel's presence in the game must absolutely remain unaltered. She must continue to remain behind the frontline and cast her Magic (supportive or disruptive) via long-range abilities.

Ancient Might turns Galadriel into her Drowned/Seaweed form, affecting her with the above-mentioned restrictions and unlocking temporarily (from a minimum of 30 seconds, to a maximum of four minutes) a Palantír that consists of the following abilities.

(http://i.imgur.com/C2ue1Ab.jpg)

ANCIENT MIGHT

(http://i.imgur.com/2gxXn0M.gif)

(http://i.imgur.com/kjdMHVw.gif) Uncanny Presence (level 1): Passive. All heroes and monsters in her vicinity gets -15% on attack and speed. Galadriel's armour against them is increased by 30%.

(http://i.imgur.com/meQz1wC.gif) Wrath of the Elven Queen (level 3): The Queen of Wood-elves unleashes her terrible wrath in the form of a concentric explosion of power. All enemies in its radius are violently knocked back and harmed.

Very fitting graphical effects for her blast could be the ones showcased in this video, which is a presentation of Ealendril's Chronicles Submod. The FX I'm referring to are the ones shown at the beginning (at 0:20). The current rendition should be modified a little though, doing away with Sauron's iconic sound and with the whole heating effect (making the blast faster will also do well for our purpose).


(http://i.imgur.com/M0o7I2X.gif) You Have no Power! (level 7): Once it's used on a single hero, the enemy hero deals no damage for a brief amount of time (and, if its ordinary attack contemplates this, it doesn't knock back either until the effect is over).

(http://i.imgur.com/2owT1a2.gif) Banishment into the Void (level 10): Galadriel unleashes the might of her phial and casts her confining spell against the Evil. All enemy heroes, monsters and units in a radius will flee in terror, their abilities will be reset and the nearest units are knocked back by the shockwave of the very power.


IMPORTANT: The usage of this ability will automatically force Galadriel to return to her normal form. This ultimate display of might will drain all her remaining energies to maintain the Drowned/Seaweed appearance, as it's exactly shown in BOTFA.


Zitat
The model of Galadriel in the evil campaign of BFME2 shall be used for Ancient Might, so that the Edain Team won't have to work on anything related to graphics. I also find this very appearance of hers as very apt for our needs, given that it marvellously depicts the in-between characterisation of this feature (between the Lady of Light and the Dark Queen). I also think that the aura surrounding her well portrays Galadriel's obscure prowess coming forth, as it was conceived in the original intentions of WETA. Furthermore, I view those effects (FX) as a sort of sea mist being spread while she's mutating her nature, in line with the exact definition provided by WETA: an underwater spirit! Last but not least, water connects automatically with Nenya and the vast seas of Middle-earth, which Galadriel longs greatly to journey beyond (desire that her Ring has constantly been nourishing).

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ap85xo2Ejb0

Speaking about graphics and animations, I would dare to say that there shouldn't be big problematical issues concerning these fields. A complete model of Galadriel is already at hand. Eerie Aura and You Have no Power don't need an animation at all, Wrath of the Elven Queen could simply utilise one of her ordinary animations for the attack (when she raises her arm) and for the third one there is Frodo's phial animation (which would be perfectly fitting for her equally); the ultimate ability (banishment) will also show a blue-ish explosion, based on Dark Queen's ordinary attack (that ghostly blue-ish tone will exactly indicate that she's resembling a lesser version of her terrible form). Her slowed down movements could imitate the pace of common peasants.

SOUNDS: German (https://soundcloud.com/diewalk-re/sets/galadriels-botfa-sounds-in-german) and English (https://soundcloud.com/diewalk-re/sets/galadriel-botfa-sounds-for-edain).

Galadriel's whirl against structures: Storm (https://soundcloud.com/diewalk-re/galadriels-storm?in=diewalk-re/sets/galadriels-additional-sounds)
Eerie Aura (in loop): Enchanting Words (https://m.soundcloud.com/diewalk-re/you-have-no-power?in=diewalk-re/sets/galadriels-additional-sounds)
Wrath of the Elven Queen: ''I will destroy you'' (https://soundcloud.com/diewalk-re/sets/wrath-of-the-elven-queen) (the German version of the line has been provided as well)
You Have no Power: ''You have no power here!'' (https://soundcloud.com/diewalk-re/edain9?in=diewalk-re/sets/galadriel-botfa-sounds-for-edain)
Banishment into the Void: ''Go back...'' (https://soundcloud.com/diewalk-re/edain14?in=diewalk-re/sets/galadriel-botfa-sounds-for-edain)

I decided to do away with the earthquake-ability, as it would have objectively been too much and contrasted with the main lore and gameplay principles of this proposal (not to mention the evident resemblance with the Dark Queen). I believe this may be a very balanced design, and the fact that this feature is temporary (and, I suppose, characterised by a quite long recharging time) takes us far from the risk of overpowering her unnecessarily. This is still a work-in-progress concept though, and I'm thus more than open to any new suggestion or insight (concerning balance, in particular). You are also absolutely free to propose new names for her powers (I like very much the alliteration in the first one). A response from the Edain Team might be great too, especially when it comes to the technical field. I'm sure this proposal has indeed some chances to be developed decently and to finally bloom as a new element of the very game (endowing Galadriel, in a clever way, with significant traits that correspond perfectly to her leading role)  8-)

All the graphical aspects are obviously secondary at this initial stage (hoping to deal with them later, even though I already have some ideas). Nevertheless, I had already presented last year suitable sounds for our purposes (both in German and in English) and I fortunately managed to retrieve the BOTFA concept arts I referred to above from the unexplored width of the Internet. As you can see, non-CGI Seaweed Galadriel fits our context very well: this appearance displays her obscure potential and ambitions (not evil, for she doesn't seek for power with violence) that come forth when she is tainted by darkness and in serious peril, without turning her in a grotesque incubus. The mild solution which may be what we need.


IN FAVOUR

1. Walküre
2. Fredius
3. DrHouse93
4. The_Necromancer0
5. Julio229
6. Garlodur
7. LordDainIronfoot
8. CragLord
9. dkbluewizard
10. Amandil7
11. lordoflinks
12. Dain@
13. OakenShield224
14. Slawek56703
15. Gandalf7000
16. Eomer der Verbannte
17. AmosVogel
18. lahe95
19. Astapor
20. FilipGeorg95
21. AulëTheSmith
22. NoldorSithLordsShipwrigh t
23. The_Nazgul
24. Fürst der Nazgûl
25. Tauriel?
26. GrisoN (ModDB)
27. REAPER357
28. n1ck_liv (Discord)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Fredius am 12. Aug 2016, 23:51
This looks like a very solid and promising concept. A great middle way between your and Dr.House's ideas. I have nothing more to add than to say that I agree with this proposal xD.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Aug 2016, 00:09
I'm very glad to hear that  ;)

I guess that we might still need other people's opinions to have this concept polished even more. Yes, though, I too feel that we are in the right direction; and I'm eagerly waiting for Odysseus to participate as well  xD
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 13. Aug 2016, 14:51
Awesome idea, Walk! The Terrible Galadriel's form without CGI is awesome, too^^
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Aug 2016, 15:46
I finalised one additional aspect of the graphical side of this proposal. These are the icon-pictures I think would fit very well for the whole feature and the abilities presented; I will also update the main concept by matching each power with smaller versions of the said images. I hope you will like them very much  ;)

Ambitions from Ancient Times


1. Eerie Aura


2. You Have no Power!


3. Banishment into the Void (This one is probably my favourite).


Another great issue to face is the actual graphical appearance of Galadriel while she's in this form: I think they could modify the current ordinary model and make it resemble the non-CGI concept art of Seaweed Galadriel (with adding, maybe, a minor-size blue-ish aura as the one of the Dark Queen). Not having been provided with clear indications regarding these matters and the whole suggestion itself, I would then prefer to wait for other people to participate and give their contributions (especially on balance and gameplay).
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 16. Aug 2016, 16:57
Well, what can I say Walk? The amount of time and work you spend on your proposal are quite apparent, and I do really enjoy that, as per usual. However, I am torn inbetween the two options. This more cinematic interpretation of Galadriel looks amazing, but I do really like the current Galadriel as she complements the faction's design greatly.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Aug 2016, 22:12
First of all, thank you very much for the compliments. I'm really happy that you appreciate the concept and its relative different sides  :)

I do understand your point very clearly. I had often been unsure about the possibility to propose this suggestion in the past and questioned its very legitimacy as an enriching feature for the game: many people disliked the BOTFA rendition of Galadriel and the whole grotesque atmosphere lying behind the Dol Guldur sequence, mainly due to her controversial appearance according to PJ's view (known as 'Seaweed Galadriel' for the reference to seaweed and to water/sea). That didn't stop me, though, from doing some researches based on lore-sources and trying to find my way through the particularity of these matters, so that I could eventually hope to present a valid proposal despite the initial difficulties.

As I pointed out in my previous comments, the whole new feature explores Galadriel's millenary ambitions and the obscure yet never evil side of her personality that always accompanied her since the Exile from Aman. I think it would be absolutely great to implement this trait in the game and that it would surely benefit the Lady of Lothlórien, perfectly in line with the Edain Mod's standards. Normal Galadriel, the Dark Queen, Blessed Galadriel and Seaweed Galadriel would equally be part of Lórien, each of them having its fair proportionate role in accordance to the known criteria (lore, cinematographic prominence, gameplay and so on).

I share your same opinion on the ordinary Galadriel: she fits greatly in the faction and her design is one of the most lore and gameplay accurate ones in the game. But, I also really consider that 'wild' element of hers absolutely worth being added, in order to give even more value to her essence and more value to the faction as a whole. The abilities proposed would exactly complete her central supportive nature, granting the player the concrete opportunity to turn support into interference, and to resolve the heroine's weakness towards heroes and monsters in very difficult contexts (bearing in mind that such choice is characterised by defined restrictions and inevitable risks).

I assure you that I put all the efforts I could to come up with something that wouldn't disrupt Galadriel's primary premises as a hero (given that the normal form will remain of paramount importance), but rather being complementary to it; a favourable chance to get really close to her psychological characterisation when she is not tested yet and to refer to that intense witchcraft-motive present in BOTFA. No way will Galadriel ever become a mass-slayer or offensive hero (that is, a poor surrogate of the Dark Queen), nor is anything of this suggestion to be centred on lore abominations. This addition deserves to be part of the diversified Edain universe and I hope everyone will see the deep purposes behind (that makes it well greater than something which needs to be added for the sake of adding). I admit I spent some good deal of time and energies in this proposal, and I did it even more everytime I indirectly dealt with similar themes on this forum; approximately, since my very first post on MU, I guess  :D

Let's give Galadriel the final cherry on top of the cake that every leader justly ought to be endowed with, in a reasonable combination among lore, gameplay and cinematographic atmosphere (factors that were at the heart of wonderful concepts as Sauron's iconic stance-system and Elrond's mount). I fortunately managed to provide some of the actual work in advance, having at hand the needed pictures and sounds (German and English). All of this is nonetheless in the Edain Team's precious hands. I will also try to gather other opinions here, if I may do it, because I really deem them vital for the development of the very debate  ;)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 19. Aug 2016, 15:44
Great work Walk! This proposal has certainly seen some amazing development.
I have some doubts about the availibility of this Seaweed Galadriel, however.

I am not sure whether a timer can be given to the stance system. I wanted to suggest instead an alternative for the place of this different version of Galadriel. What about replacing the Glare of Galadriel that scares enemy units in the target area? This ability spot would be taken over by Ambition of Ancient Times that opens a new Palantír with a timer like the ones Ghan-Buri Ghan and Grishnak have in the summon powers from Rohan and Isengard respectively.
Consequently I have a slight balance issue I want to bring up. If the ability Ambition of Ancient Times is only available when Galadriel's health is under 40%, won't she still be too vulnerable to heroes and monsters even with increased armour against them and their reduced damage? I might work out as a calculation but in-game it might not be sufficient to deal with certain abilities of enemy units or heroes that still deal high damage to single targets (Aragorn's Blade of the West, Beorning's anti-armour ability, etc.). My question would be whether she should be able to deal with these hero-killing abilities or only with a lower concentration of heroes and monsters until she reacher her level 10 to get rid of higher amounts of enemies.

I want to reiterate my earlier suggestion of adding a penalty to using the abilities You have no power! and Banishment into the Void in the form of a decrease of health points. The reason for this is that it would urge the player to almost sacrifice Galadriel in order to save herself (and whoever she is supporting with that ability). In the movie she is terribly weakened after contending Sauron, and I believe this should be reflected in-game as the great price she has to pay for doing so.

Lastly I wondered whether the abilities You have no power! and Banishment into the Void will share their cooldown with the current abilities corresponding to Galadriel level 7 (Glance in the Mirror, I believe) and level 10 (the Ring Nenya). It might be too much of a cooldown-inception, so it should probably reflected in the cooldown of the Ambition of Ancient Times ability.

As always I hope this contributes to the development of Galadriel into the magnificent Elven Queen of old. Now I wonder when Elrond is up for discussion. :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 21. Aug 2016, 18:07
Hi Garlodur! It's always great and really interesting to read your precious contributions to this topic. Yes, I too am very much hopeful that we are finally getting very close to a defined ultimate concept. Nevertheless, I will continue to try to gather more voices here from the forum, given that I'm eager to know other people's thoughts on Ambitions from Ancient Times. Obviously, regarding the very name of the feature, anyone is more than free to propose other titles that might be deemed more suitable for the context. I would personally see Fiery Heart as very proper as well: it effectively refers to the pride of the Lady of Light and her resolution, since the first time she stood up in the Noldor's council in Tirion and campaigned for the exile in Middle-earth.

Now my response to your remark. I must have certainly done an inaccurate thing when I called this proposal a stance system. What I suggested is in fact a feature (temporary) that allows to open a new Palantír (and changes Galadriel's appearance), with the abilities shown in the presentation of the concept. As you rightly pointed out, it works differently from the usual stance system, but I addressed to it that way because it really reminds me of something very similar to different stances; in this case, the momentary option to turn her supportive design into a more aggressive/disruptive one (displaying this twist also with her marred/tainted look as Seaweed Galadriel). The feature nonetheless works as I explained in the main previous comment of mine, and it thus replaces the normal stances and not the Gaze ability. This was more a matter of terminology; I apologise, if it created confusion  :)

The heart of this proposal is giving Galadriel some chances to resist the assaults of heroes and monsters, while interfering with their actions. Interference is exactly the element at the centre of all. Said that, we aren't talking about hero-killer properties at all; I made it clear that she is always supposed to be escorted by other troops and heroes, and that Ambitions from Ancient Times/Fiery Heart serves her well in very dangerous situations of emergency. No way will she ever be capable of challenging heroes directly or of even taking them down; she won't be able to attack while this form is activated, and that one is the role of Celeborn.

My question would be whether she should be able to deal with these hero-killing abilities or only with a lower concentration of heroes and monsters until she reaches her level 10 to get rid of higher amounts of enemies.

The latter of the two, keeping in mind that 'dealing with' means having the concrete opportunity to survive against them and to disrupt their plans  ;)

Honestly, I'm not for a reduction of her health. I sincerely believe that the whole weakness motive, an absolutely fundamental factor, is already well displayed by the current effects; that is, unlocking the ability at 40% of health, the fact that she can't attack neither units nor structures and her movements slowed down. Additional negative effects would affect her too much, without any clear reason (making this option definitely unfavourable, rather than naturally risky). The cool-down of the feature shall necessarily be moderate, along with a reasonably brief duration, so that the player is not to use You Have no Power! and Banishment into the Void twice in a row.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 6. Sep 2016, 21:20
This is a lot to take in but I've had several read throughs so I'll try to do my best to answer back.

The initial ability Ambitions from Ancient Times seems well balanced with the negative effects it brings to her. So that's a good point although I might have an issue with the fact that the ability could be use to save Galadriel in many situations.

Most abilities sound good and seem balanced. Banishment into the Void feels very strong, this reset of all the abilities of all nearby heroes is very powerful. I would suggest some counter effect to balance it a bit such as forcing Galadriel back into her normal form. I also think it should only temporarily stun enemy heroes instead of making them flee.

Apart from that good work on the proposal, it's solid and you guys have poured a lot of effort into making it simple, well done! The sounds are also very good and definitely usable.

I really don't have much to say, the proposal looks solid and apart from tweaking the numbers a bit and wrapping up the visuals. Good luck on your project although I doubt you'll need it seeing the work already accomplished.  :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Sep 2016, 04:27
Many thanks, Necro, for joining the debate around this proposal. As I stated in the following comments after that main presentation, this feature won't make Galadriel a new hero-killer, nor does it intend to grant her certain safety from all perils (as she's always supposed to be escorted by someone else, be it troops or other heroes). It's instead a valuable addition to her defence against a selected type of tough opponents, and very much consistent with her characterisation in the lore (she has not been tested yet and her ancient desires of might), with the darker Hobbit atmosphere (although with severe restrictions and based on the premise that this Hobbit motive will remain absolutely secondary, compared to her basic LOTR concept) and with the status of this heroine in her faction (her cost as well).

I would like the terror property of Banishment into the Void to remain, as it is a central element in the banishment scene. I like very much the other suggestion of yours though: forcing her to return back to her normal form after she uses the ability would even things up even more, and it's well loyal to the very scene of BOTFA too. I will thus edit the post and add the adjustment you proposed  :)

Speaking about graphics and animations, I would dare to say that there shouldn't be big problematical issues concerning these fields. A complete model of Galadriel already exists, and it will then mainly be a matter of graphical changes to make her resemble the non-CGI Seaweed Galadriel and the FX surrounding her. The first two abilities don't need an animation at all and for the third one there is Frodo's phial animation (which would be very fitting for her equally). Her slowed down movements could imitate the pace of common peasants. Besides, thank you again for your precious contribution  ;)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 10. Sep 2016, 03:05
I must say, this is an amazing proposal! The amount of work you have put into this is simply astounding, and it just fits perfectly with Galadriel's character! I'm totally for this proposal to be included in the mod!

I like the abilities and their images a lot, and it is really fitting for the most powerful Elf of the Third Age that she is capable of unleashing that power when it is needed, when she has low health, it is just so unique! The temporary form replacing the stance is great, and I believe more heroes should have a unique system instead of regular stances to further help their characterization, because Sauron is amazing and this Galadriel would be just perfect, they both embody the character they are perfectly!

I'm just amazed by the work this proposal must have needed, so I am for this suggestion to be included!
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Sep 2016, 19:16
Many thanks indeed, Julio, for appreciating the concept as a whole and its purposes. I also edited the presentation post by adding some minor aspects. I will now continue to try to get as much feedback as I can from other people (as I have done so far).

Any opinion and remark are always more than welcome  :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 1. Okt 2016, 01:59
One last thing though, why should Galadriel not be allowed to attack at all when she has changed her stance with Ambition of Ancient Times?

I know, her damage is pretty low, but I have started wondering whether it would be worth using the ability at lower levels if she can barely do anything to protect herself. She can't run away because she will be slower than even the slowest heroes (Karsh and Dwarves), and her armour increase and damage debuffing of enemy heroes and single units, might not amount to enough resistance at the low health required for activation.

Could it be interesting to add an effect to her standard attack, or would that make things too complicated? She could still attack heroes and single units, but not regular units or buildings, with low damage but with the effect of slowing them down, stunning them briefly, or reducing their damage even further, for example. These changes would have some consequences for Banishment into the Void; instead of scaring heroes to run (which I thought wasn't technically possible) she could either knock them all back very far, or give them a stun that slows down their movement speed even after the stun is over.

All in all, I am absolutely FOR this proposal. It's looking great DieWalküre. I'm looking forward to playing Lorién with this Galadriel.  ;)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 1. Okt 2016, 20:46
One last thing though, why should Galadriel not be allowed to attack at all when she has changed her stance with Ambition of Ancient Times?

I found disabling her attack and slowing her down reasonable compromises to make this momentary stance-system fit well in Galadriel's already consistent and lore accurate design. As I pointed out and reaffirmed many times, her current role as hero supporter must necessarily remain the centre of all. Furthermore, the stance-system is meant to twist her supportive abilities in interfering features, to mirror (with the due differences) what happens with Sauron: the concept of mutating nature/essence (appearance) and unlocking aggressive powers. Galadriel, as the Dark Lord's nemesis in Middle-earth, would thus have too the chance to show how much disruptive her prowess can be towards the enemies (and the shift to this more aggressive form would exactly be symbolised by her transformation).

Even though she will be able to resist more damage, halting heroes' actions or frustrating their moves, she is nonetheless supposed to be escorted by other troops or heroes. Being a hero-interferer (the reversal of hero-supporter abilities) doesn't follow that she should also be given an attack and speed increase. Imagine her being allowed to attack heroes and moving quickly while in that form, added to the features she is already supposed to perform; she would eventually turn out as a hero killer, and this is exactly what I wanted to avoid at all costs, for it would contrast with all the premises stated above and would be completely unnecessary (Celeborn is the one appointed to slay heroes).

The basic properties of Galadriel's presence in the game must absolutely remain unaltered. She must continue to remain behind the frontline and cast her Magic (supportive or disruptive) via long-range abilities.

As for Banishment into the Void, the ability was exactly conceived in accordance to what I explained in the previous passages. If some of its effects are really not technically feasible, we will then proceed with modifying what ought to be modified.

Thank you for your support, Garlodur, and for having followed the development of this proposal since its first days  :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 25. Okt 2016, 17:24
I don't have much time as of lately but I did manage to at least read Walks Combined and Refined Concept,and all I can say with my limited time is that it is one of the best Concepts I have read in the MU...

Congrats to him and all who took part in the development of the Concept,you have done a magnificent job. Really nice and detailed and even Visual Add as Pics for Skills and everything. I think the suggestion is really great,and for a Character with Galadriel Importance  and Power and Influence she really deserves this attention and upgrade... all I can say is that I hope that Edain Team will really consider and even use most of the Concept at least,and I am looking forward to see all this in Game!

Thank you Walk and all for the hard work,I hope the Team will appreciate and even use it! :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Okt 2016, 21:37
Thank you Walk and all for the hard work, I hope the Team will appreciate and even use it! :)

Many thanks to you instead, Dáin, for your very kind words. And thank you for appreciating the purpose and elements of this concept. I hope you'll return active again here, as I really miss your honest opinion and judgement, and that even your own valuable proposals will eventually find a way in the game.

Greetings  ;)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 6. Nov 2016, 05:58
Hey Diewalkure, I read your proposal and feel it is perfect. It goes in tangent with the films, books, and game. The 40% health is crucial and I feel that is key here. Galadriel retains her uses, but doesn't have to have other heroes or units protecting her now. This was very good!
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 6. Nov 2016, 15:00
Hey Diewalkure, I read your proposal and feel it is perfect. It goes in tangent with the films, books, and game. The 40% health is crucial and I feel that is key here. Galadriel retains her uses, but doesn't have to have other heroes or units protecting her now. This was very good!

Thank you very much for the support and the participation here. And welcome to Modding Union!  ;)

Yes, I exactly wanted to come up with a concept which feeds from the Hobbit trilogy (albeit toning its grotesque element down a bit), the game and the lore. A feature that only adds something more to Galadriel's already well-thought concept, without radical changes in regards of her ordinary characterisation. In my opinion, a wise scope for exploring the darker sides of her character during her more-than-6000-year permanence in Middle-earth. Not only is she capable of supporting her realm and her people as a real (de facto) queen, but she may also contest any enemy, should the circumstances require it.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Amandil7 am 6. Nov 2016, 23:30
I like the Games Workshop concept of Galadriel maintaining her encahantress form at some cost. Like in the movie, she gets "diminished" after facing off against Sauron.

Maybe give her a level 5/7 ability to change into her Dark/Drowned form, with stronger abilities but at the cost of losing her health at a constant rate while in that form. Just a suggestion.

Also random idea, maybe she could have an ability :"Treacherous as the Sea" and summon a whirlpool similar to the one the storm ships have.

DieWalküre Your stance idea would suit her perfectly too! :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Nov 2016, 09:03
DieWalküre Your stance idea would suit her perfectly too! :)

Thank you very much for appreciating the concept, Amandil  :)

Regarding your suggestion, I decided to explore the weakening motive of the films by making the system be available at a certain level of health. Reducing her health progressively is an aspect kind of similar to the whole sacrifice theme of Angmar (and I don't think it would fit well in Lothlórien at all). Not to mention that I'm not particularly fond of the idea of losing health either.

Also random idea, maybe she could have an ability :"Treacherous as the Sea" and summon a whirlpool similar to the one the storm ships have.

As I pointed out in previous comments of mine, I exactly avoided to grant her this type of abilities, because they would turn her in a lesser version of the Dark Queen: the stance-system wouldn't thus be unique anymore and risk to be completely redundant. The centre of all is that the supportive abilities she casts from afar are twisted in interfering abilities (which are nonetheless cast via long-range features). The tornado from BFME2 would therefore violate these premises, due to its highly destructive nature.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Dez 2016, 21:52
I updated the main concept-post. Finally, it seems that someone cut the right excerpt of the Dol Guldur sequence (behind-the-scenes) that we need: PJ's, Cate's and the WETA staff's words will certainly serve better than my own. The kernel of the conceptual premises shown here is wholly expressed in this interesting video  ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5MTlpluRZw
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 19. Dez 2016, 01:50
I fully support DieWalküre's proposal, as it is one of the most professional I have seen, and I hope it is implemented. In fact I have nothing to add, as in my view it is perfection incarnate.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 19. Dez 2016, 10:57
I fully support DieWalküre's proposal, as it is one of the most professional I have seen, and I hope it is implemented. In fact I have nothing to add, as in my view it is perfection incarnate.

Thank you for the support! I'm really happy you appreciate the concept  :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Dain@ am 19. Dez 2016, 12:23
Hi people !

You have an amazing concept for Galadriel DieWalküre!
That would be all the ideas and suggestions for other key characters would be so good and unique as your!, Then it would be just super !!! If the concept is implemented in a fashion Edain 4.5 it would be perfect! I am glad that there are people who are so zealously and persistently promoting good ideas! As far as your conception of Galadriel, that as for me it will be the second breath for lothlorien.


Asli would with enthusiasm and pressure to conduct discus about other key characters (Gandalf, Aragorn, Saruman, Elrond, and King Dain Witch) that would be terrific. Although the hope is still to come!
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 19. Dez 2016, 13:16
I fully support DieWalküre's proposal, as it is one of the most professional I have seen, and I hope it is implemented. In fact I have nothing to add, as in my view it is perfection incarnate.

Thank you for the support! I'm really happy you appreciate the concept  :)
I wonder if this could be used as an example proposal? Its that good, it has everything a proposal should aspire to have.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 19. Dez 2016, 14:00
Thank you, both of you, for your very kind words. You're now making me blush a little bit  :D

Asli would with enthusiasm and pressure to conduct discus about other key characters (Gandalf, Aragorn, Saruman, Elrond, and King Dain Witch) that would be terrific. Although the hope is still to come!

Surely, if you have some ideas that you deem worthy of being shared, feel free to propose them in the proper boards. The forum lives thanks to proposals. Moreover, speaking about suggestions themselves (as you two talked about some models to follow for proposing concepts), I can tell you that what I think is that one should present the most detailed and complete concept possible in advance, once it has been previously debated. People tend to have a substantially different approach when they are put in front of something quite defined, rather than a blank and vague plan still to be clarified properly.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 4. Jan 2017, 19:17
I've only just managed to properly read through DieWalküre's idea and it is one of the best hero concepts I've ever seen! A couple of questions though:
How long will the timer be?
Will there be any sort of effect once Galadriel turns back to her regular stance after running out of time?
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Jan 2017, 21:04
Thank you for the support  :)

I didn't come up yet with defined numbers for the feature's duration. I guess it should be a quite moderate amount of time (one minute?). Yes, Galadriel will immediately returns to her normal form (hero-supporter and building destroyer). I chose not to opt for additional collateral damages (as lowering her health), as there already are important restrictions while using that form (the impossibility to attack and her slowed movements).
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 4. Jan 2017, 21:20
Oh my this is proably one of the biggest and best constructive ideas i saw on MU .There really isn't many ideas like this. I can only imagine how long it take to make such propsoal with providing all those resources to make this easier for Edain Team to implement this great idea in game . I wish i could make some day such awesome proposal. I hope Edain Team will appreciate if yet they didn't the time and work u put into this incredible idea . Can't wait i test all abilities and banish Sauron from this world for good . After seeing such ideas I can only have hope it is not last idea we see from U . Congratulations DieWalküre  :)

Best regards
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Jan 2017, 23:25
After seeing such ideas I can only have hope it is not last idea we see from U . Congratulations DieWalküre  :)

Thank you for your very kind words! I hope we'll see other great proposals in the future too.

Can't wait i test all abilities and banish Sauron from this world for good.

It's what I absolutely desire to do as well  8-)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 4. Jan 2017, 23:30
First of all: We are talking about the concept on page 9, right? ;)
Second of all: I think the basic idea is quite nice and since I think that Galadriel's current roster is quite boring because she practically looses 2-3 slots for "macro-abilities" which don't really do anything on their on, I'd agree, some new interesting abilities are welcome.
However, I'd say, these are some of the most broken spells I've read in quite some time (and I finished reworking 3.8.1 Grishnakh and Ori only some time ago ;)):
1. Galadriel is an absolute monster against any form of troops -not limited to spam-troops. (And even that would be quite devastating against certain factions, since the "great days of spam" are over and will never return because of the changes to CP. Anyways.) The last time I looked she was able to one-shot Rohirrim without upgrades which (considering she is quite long-ranged and hits almost the entire bataillon at the same time) is absolutely brutal.
2. She already is an essential hero for Lorien: Galadriel is its mass slayer, its hero supporter and also a semi-siege unit.

To sum up, her only weaknesses are heroes or single units -which this concept would negate entirely if she reaches a certain level. To go a little more into detail:
a) "Eerie Aura": Whatever, I don't see a problem here.
b) "You Have no Power!": And here we go... I don't see, how this ability can possibly be justified -let's pretend, we have a battle were Galadriel is completely destroying the enemy army (or at least the bulk of it) which a few attacks. Now the enemy manages to sneak in a hero, brings Galadriel quite low -and then she just says "No" and the other player looses. Maybe we could save this ability by giving it a very (!) high cast time (6+ seconds) -thus the hero killer could get some more hits in and possibly kill Galadriel. But even than, I think this is too extreme. (Important: This wouldn't be the case (of course) if Galadriel wasn't so "slaughter troops - die vs. heroes" to begin with. :D)
c) "Banishment into the Void": I'm sorry, but this sounds completely OP even for a hero specifically designed to fight enemy heroes. That's like the ultimate "get out of trouble"-card -a cc-knockback, a mass-CD-reset and a terror-ability in one. Seriously, think about it:
 - The cc-knockback would give her every chance in the world to react. Even if we were to balance "You Have no Power!" by an abnormally long cast time, she could get this time using this.
 - Currently only the Witchkings have a CD-reset at all. On a single target at a time! (OK, they can cast it whenever they like.) It's unlikely any hero would stand a chance after he was knocked back, then continues to flee while his abilities are blocked and he does no damage when he returns.
 - The terror-effect: See last point.

Another point I'd like to make is the amount of "emergency brakes" Lothlorien already has: They have "Nenyas Might" (or whatever it's name is) which makes your army invulnerable, "Vingilot" which makes the enemy army do no damage practically making your army invulnerable (and also healing your army, negated any previous damage), "Echanted River" which is probably the only instant-stun in the game apart from Cloud Break, ...
I mean, I'm trying to be open for this concept, but as someone who wants to have a chance against Lothlorien, this isn't justifyable! Thus, I like the idea you are going for Walküre, but for something to reach perfection, those things need to be addressed. (Which you did in some degrees, because Galadriel wouldn't be able to attack units! This is actually a great idea.)
Edit: Which makes it even the more problematic, that "Banishment into the Void" returns her to her normal form -then all possible threats are gone and Galadriel has time to mop up the rest of the enemy army (no entirely defenceless) with her returned mass slaughter attacks. (Yes, I chose to write "slaughter" instead of "slayer".)


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS:
Zitat
I thus disagree with Melkor, which is really a very rare event...  xD
We really should start a list...  :D
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 4. Jan 2017, 23:48
This is a very well defined and written concept that I fully support. It will give Galadriel some new cool abilities and she will not be OP. So I'm for this concept.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 5. Jan 2017, 16:50
First of all: We are talking about the concept on page 9, right? ;)

Greetings to you, dear Melkor. It's always a pleasure to know your usual truculent judgement, yet ever honest and insightful. And the fact that you don't find my concept completely horrid comforts me, in a sense. It really gives me hope for the future  xD

Most of the in-game considerations you brought to attention are interesting indeed, yet I think some scenarios you pictured could always be subjected to a certain level of personal opinion and choices regarding strategy. In coming up with a final proposal, I had to balance many aspects and think about a lot of eventualities, and then I chose to follow the solution which I deemed appropriate. To address our own differing views, I don't think that Galadriel could be considered the mass-slayer of the faction at all, since her abilities have a totally different characterisation and I don't find her attack so much deadly (yes, it's effective, but not so monstrous), if one considers how the enemy may counter that by targeting her directly or via other different means (and you yourself acknowledged her current vulnerability). On top of all, I regard those abilities well justified for a few significant reasons: contrary to Grishnákh or Ori, we're talking about a 3000-resource hero who also happens to be the supreme leader of the faction (under this perspective, very pervasive and wide-range features are comprehensible). As I think that an ability is unique also due to its effectiveness, I find the last two abilities legitimate, if you also take into account the level they require to be available at. In light of that, I deem Banishment into the Void not less proper than Nenya's Protection.

As you too mentioned, the way I dealt with possible limitations are the very limitations I presented, which consist of the inability to attack (not so much monstrous anymore), her slowed-down movements and the very temporary connotation of the concept. Don't forget, also, that using Banishment into the Void will automatically lead her to return to her normal (vulnerable) form, thus ceasing the negative effect of Eerie Aura, that could have given your troops the chance to finish heroes and monsters very easily. I think these counter-measures are quite enough to prevent her from being an OP Elven goddess. Actually, someone told me that I exaggerated too much by binding her in a so strict way; you then may see how very opposite views are present in the discussion.

Anyway, left aside our own divergences on values or effects, I really appreciate the fact that you (as I suppose) liked the conceptual premises and roots of this proposal, which were the toughest aspect I had to work on (as they are the very foundations of the concept). I don't deny that, at the beginning of this journey, I had expected to get negative feedback based on statements as 'the Hobbit films are rubbish', but all the positive responses I got really surprised me. As you do, I really think that Galadriel currently needs more and, in particular, other clever additions to add to her already lore-accurate design. So, we do see some things in the same way  ;)

Bear nonetheless this in mind: as you certainly know better than me, in the ever-changing realm of balance, values and effects can always be overhauled or changed. That said, were the proposal to be toned down a bit in any way, I wouldn't mind that at all. I shall stick to my own opinions, while I leave the final decision in the hands of whom develops the Edain Mod in the first place. Henceforth, even though I won't modify the concept, there is the possibility that your own considerations will be indeed taken into account. Also, I guess you will be very much happy to know that I'm planning to translate all of this in German. This 'broken' proposal will thus soon haunt the German forum too  :D

And, always remember, the ONE on the right is older  8-)

Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 8. Jan 2017, 00:25
Sorry, it took me so long to reply to you, Walküre! ;)
First I'd like to get over some brief points of you:
Zitat
To address our own differing views, I don't think that Galadriel could be considered the mass-slayer of the faction at all, since her abilities have a totally different characterisation and I don't find her attack so much deadly
Well, if she isn't, who is? There is not at single hero in the faction of Lorien who has such devastating attacks when we are just talking about killing masses of troops. Apart from that: One- or twoshotting enemy bataillons in quite some variety of net-worth, is from my point of view the literal definition of a mass-slayer. ;) Apart from that you are right that her abilities don't support this role, but that is utterly unimportant when judging by her attack -look at older versions of the Mordor-WK. He got his word of power only at level 10, but was feared as one of the most disgusting mass-slayers in the game. And his power came exclusively from his AoE-attacks -which Galadriel has as well. Thus she is a mass-slayer. Or to put it differently: If Galadriel isn't, why is Gandalf? His attacks don't do much damage. xD

Also, I'm sorry, but since my critizism for this concept was entirely balance-related, the point that Galadriel is the supreme-leader of Lorien is completely immaterial. That gives her the right to be strong, but she already is, and furthermore that's hardly a balance-argument. (It's a design-argument: She should be strong.)

Zitat
As I think that an ability is unique also due to its effectiveness, I find the last two abilities legitimate, if you also take into account the level they require to be available at. In light of that, I deem Banishment into the Void not less proper than Nenya's Protection.
I must say, that I myself am not a big fan of this "do or die"-concept certain heroes have. Locking critical (for his role!) abilities behind abnormally high levels is in my opinion a very bad gameplay idea. Whatever, that's not the thing you were talking about, so I'm going to reply to the real statement.
My problem with "Banishment into the Void" isn't really that it's strong, but that I'd consider it too strong, possibly broken -again, as far as I can tell, Galadriel ONLY weakness are strong single units primarily heroes and -to a massively lesser extent- monsters (because of Loriens archer supremacy). Ordinary troops get completely massacred by the White Lady or at least highly damaged. (Even if she can't oneshot enemies anymore: She still hits 2/3 of an unclumped bataillon at the same time!) Both of the last two abilites absolutely hard-counter her only weakness and that's in my opinion not OK. (And it's disgusting to play against.)
You are right, that it takes some time to get there, but... You know what, I'll try to explain this differently: Imagine some faction having access to in incredibly expensive (25k, why not? ;)) ability that essentially wins them the game. Of course, they have zero chance of ever getting there because the price is ludicrous. Still, it's kind of OP because you can't do anything against it once it's there. That's probably the best example for some feature to be "broken", you can make -something both UP and OP at the same time! That powerfull spells like "You have no power!" (which BTW is already problematic and easy to get) and "Banishment into the Void" and a bit like this: They'd practically make Galadriel unstoppable or at least much to strong, their ONLY downside is how unlikely they are to get. Does everyone get the similarities with the "broken"-example above?

Zitat
Don't forget, also, that using Banishment into the Void will automatically lead her to return to her normal (vulnerable) form, thus ceasing the negative effect of Eerie Aura, that could have given your troops the chance to finish heroes and monsters very easily.
Yes, which was some of the points, I ended up being unsure about, whether this is a bad thing for Galadriel: Once she has destroyed the threat of enemy heroes, there would be no need to be in her "hero-counter-form". Instead it would be kind of a buff, actually, if she could then continue to attack the troops who now have no real chance of hitting back. And "Eerie Aura" is by far the weakest spell of the three, don't having access to it won't change much.

I thus remain full of doubts. Perhaps it might be a good idea to scale the concept a bit back (speaking exclusively about the balance-side of things!)?


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Jan 2017, 15:46
Melkor, the fact that we're discussing this proposal thoroughly and trying to improve it is something that really pleases me very much. Yet it seems that we're quite firm on our own opinions.

As I told you, some of the scenarios you pictured are subjected to personal choices of strategy and gameplay; for example, a smart player might always take advantage of the negative implications of those abilities and use them to counter Galadriel. Set aside her powerful attack that you deem really inappropriate, the features I proposed for her are meant to grant her an interfering (interfering, and not hero-killer-like) essence against monsters and other heroes (against whom her monstrous attack can do very little); that is, making them flee or neutralising for a very BRIEF amount of time their powers. While in the drowned/obscure form, she won't be able to harm anyone directly. That is very important. And even if her last banishing spell is cast, she loses strength and thus returns to normality: monsters and heroes can then take a sigh of relief. The point of the concept is in fact interfering with heroes or monsters, but not at the point of taking them down (that's the role of Celeborn).

Furthermore, I don't really find the arguments centred on Galadriel's role so much immaterial. Wouldn't one expect to make usage of a decent ability, once higher levels are reached? Is it so much wrong to expect a quite unique and effective feature for a hero like her? What about Gandalf's Word of Power or Saruman conjuring lightning storms? Beside values, those are fundamental aspects too.

Yes, I'm not intended to change the main structure of the proposal now, especially at this point of the developing process (the final stage). Many people have already agreed with the current shape of the concept and altering it now would thus not be so much fair; as I said, someone even wanted to have more effective abilities and thought that I had bound Galadriel too much. Someone to whom I had to explain that one of my pressing concerns was not to make her unnecessarily overpowered or an inferior replica of the Dark Queen (and this is not the purpose of the proposal at all!). Nevertheless, since Christmas is not completely over yet, I feel very open-minded in regards of our discussion. What do you mean with 'balance-related side of things'? Are you referring to mere numbers or even to conceptual aspects? What would you say, if I told you that the last two abilities (with which you have issues) could have an even more temporary connotation? That is, making the neutralising/disabling effects of those powers very temporary (the time Galadriel needs to escape or to save her troops from the enemies).

I know that we probably see things under completely different perspectives, and the last thing I would like to do is exactly presenting you a take-it-or-leave-it proposal with an apocalyptic tone, but, at this point, could you be able to look at the heart of the very concept and leave numbers aside? Values that I don't think will remain immutable. Very rarely is a proposal implemented as it had been initially proposed  :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Jan 2017, 14:14
I finally translated the concept in German (https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34299.msg451999.html#msg451999), so that even the German side of the Community can easily consult that proposal without any problem involving language differences.

Also, I decided to rename the title of the general feature in Ancient Might. A much more intuitive and effective name, related to both her ambitions and to her past.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: AmosVogel am 12. Jan 2017, 21:32
Agree

Sorry, maybe i didnt read everything, but once she is drained of power, will she get a timer or a cooldown until use her abilities again?
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Jan 2017, 22:07
Agree

Sorry, maybe i didnt read everything, but once she is drained of power, will she get a timer or a cooldown until use her abilities again?

The Ancient Might feature will have a timer after it's used. As for what happens when she returns to her normal form: yes, it would be wise if she couldn't immediately use her normal abilities. It would be quite contradictory, were Galadriel to use something like Nenya after using Banishment into the Void. Thank you for raising this issue.

Regarding the model and appearance of Galadriel during the said feature, I thought about the simplest solution, even though I'm really fond of the concept from BOTFA. Since the form I proposed is supposed to be a sort of in-between form (between her normal concept and the Dark Queen), I think we should opt for something that exactly merges those two forms together. The common model of Galadriel, surrounded by the blue aura of the Dark Queen, as in the evil campaign of BFME2 (as it's shown in the video). That resembles quite well the initial intentions of WETA.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/9b/4e/90/9b4e90e212b23b3841d8916e57cd0ecf.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sREoghvixb0
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: AmosVogel am 12. Jan 2017, 23:55
Nice!

And about the concept yeah, that fits great, somehow i've imagined her:

http://img05.deviantart.net/32c1/i/2014/350/1/a/wrath_of_galadriel_by_zyrexthez-d8a1boy.jpg

Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Jan 2017, 00:05
Correct. I know that picture too. The graphical appearance shown in the video permits us to have a really 'in-between Galadriel', without the need to create another new model just for this proposal  ;)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: lahe95 am 14. Jan 2017, 15:10
I really love the concept here about The Ancient Might!
Brilliant job and nicely done. :)

Agree
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Jan 2017, 15:22
I really love the concept here about The Ancient Might!
Brilliant job and nicely done. :)

Agree

And I appreciate your supportive words. I will add your name in the list of whom is in favour of this proposal  :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: The Witch-King of Angmar am 27. Jan 2017, 21:32
I see Galadril as a very strong support to lorien's army on the battle field, she is insanly useful and the only way to slay here is by an ambush of heroes or elite unites/monsters and here where your suggestion comes in, if everytime her health gets 40% she will turn into this terrifying form, which basicaly gives her an entire new roster of abilities to counter heroes and heavy unites then i feel she is extreamly broken right now, lets check this out, her new level 1 passive:
 
Zitat
All heroes and monsters in her vicinity gets -15% on attack and speed. Galadriel's armour against them is increased by 30%.
wow this is super useful, it will buy time for reinforcment to come and killing her will be harder, and if things got out of hand, no problem! here level 7 ability gets in:
Zitat
Once it's used on a single hero, the enemy hero deals no damage for a brief amount of time (and, if its ordinary attack contemplates this, it doesn't knock back either until the effect is over)
and her new level 10 ability is super broken
Zitat
level 10: All enemy heroes, monsters and units in a radius will flee in terror, their abilities will be reset and the nearest units are knocked back by the shockwave of the very power.
"thier abilites will be reset" oh my god this is so broken man,I know this will force here to switch back to her original roster but that is a very small price to pay, like seriously galadril and witchking both cost 3000 but wk resets the abilities of only 1 hero and he has only 1 roster of abilites not 2, while Galadril will have 2 rosters the first one is allready  very good and the second one will counter what suppose to be her weakness reset all thier abilites?!! wow i am still amazed xD, she can easily counter and escape heroes right now,and btw since when do heroes flee in terror? i have never seen that in Edain, they didnt add that ability even to Sauron with his one ring, i think it will be super ironic to see heroes like Smaug, Sauron, Balrog fleeing in terror from her, i know she is very strong, but i feel this ability is out of place, and if we look at the hobbit movie, Sauron didnt "flee in terror" from here, he got pushed as in great wave sent him to Mordor, so i think here ability should be something like gandalf's word of power.

I know this suggestion will make Galadril more interesting and fun to use and nice way to add her power from the hobbit movies, and I like how it will feel like a good counter part of sauron for the good side, since both will have 2 rosters of abilities and in the second form both of them cant use their normal attack  but i see galadril balanced as she is now and adding this new form will make her broken and super hard to counter.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Jan 2017, 23:48
Many thanks for having shared your opinions, Witch-king. I will immediately address the points you raised, without losing myself in other types of explanations. I don't agree with most of your considerations, as, in my opinion, they lack some aspects that you didn't take into account or because you're considering just one side of the coin.

First of all, as you too recognised yourself, her greatest weakness at the moment are exactly heroes and monsters (I won't include elite units, since the feature is not mainly directed to them, and this fact alone already shows how this system is not broken at all). Against them, Galadriel is more or less harmless, unless one relies on defensive strategies that imply the intervention of other units; therefore, if we exclude the latter case, she is simply not capable of countering such typologies of units. Your initial statement seems thus to contradict the last consideration of yours, which you came up with at the end of the post.

Surely, Galadriel's main characterisation is exactly the one of a supporter, endowed with pervasive and wide-radius/long-range abilities. This is a paramount property of hers that Ancient Might will in fact not alter nor replace. This is something I always made sure to clarify, in case someone had been legitimately concerned about her role. When she enters this new and temporary form, her abilities will be turned into interfering powers and her nature will therefore mutate accordingly, albeit being bound by severe limitations. In regards of those boundaries, in no way is she to become anything close to a hero-killer: her long-range and supportive magic is transformed into long-range interfering magic, yet she also necessarily loses her supportive abilities for a given amount of time and her long-range attack (what also makes her so much useful from afar) is deactivated. Add to this her slowed-down movements. Of course, as you wrote yourself, the first two abilities are very useful against heroes and monsters, alongside increasing her chances to withstand that sort of assaults. But that's exactly the point of those abilities in the first place, while we forget for a moment about her supportive properties. There wouldn't be much point in conceiving abilities that don't match with a certain purpose  xD

Regarding Banishment into the Void, I don't find it broken at all. The comparison with the Witch-king is really flawed and incorrect, in my point of view. The ability you referred to (Soul Disturbance) is available at level 7, and you should also consider that, once he uses that ability, the Witch-king is well free to strike heroes or units with other abilities and with his quite powerful attack (a wide space of manoeuvre and action). This is not the case of Galadriel, given the fact that all her normal powers will be reset, once returned to normality, that she can't count on Eerie Aura anymore and that her normal supportive form will make it very unlikely to exterminate the heroes on whom she casts her confining spell. I probably forgot to mention that she eventually ends up being drained by her last ability; if I didn't insert this aspect, I apologise (I will edit the main presentation post). Furthermore, I don't think Sauron flees 'just' due to the shock wave of Galadriel's might; that's a too simplistic of an explanation: the Light captured in the phial (a remnant of the lost Two Trees of Valinor) is too much disruptive and repulsive for Sauron to bear its presence, as it happens for all foul creatures of any fashion that face the same fate. That's the point. Ok, if you don't like the idea of major heroes fleeing for being terrified as simple peasants, you may always view things this way: the Light of the phial repulses all enemies for a while, because of its holy nature.

Recreating a de facto replica of Word of Power would simply be very cheap and naïve. Uniqueness would be completely lost and that would certainly be a very broken proposal; something which would turn her in a mass-slayer, combined with the interfering effects of the first two powers. A total abomination  [ugly]

Nevertheless, if we set these significant issues aside, I'm very delighted that you deem the concept interesting, at least. The whole nemesis-like reasoning that deals with Sauron is exactly one of the strong points of the proposal. Bear in mind that, even if I don't intend to modify the concept (at this final phase), there is always the possibility that some elements might be ultimately changed or wholly replaced by the Edain Team; and we don't know yet how they feel about this proposal in general. I remit the final decision to their wise judgement, whatever the outcome may be. So, if you're not convinced by some values or aspects, I would personally advise you focus your attention on the foundations on which everything is based. Regardless of your choice, thank you again for your feedback (always valuable for the debate)  :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 29. Jan 2017, 23:56
I don't see an official list yet, but I am for this proposal. I agree[/glow].
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 30. Jan 2017, 08:34
I don't see an official list yet, but I am for this proposal. I agree.

I had already listed your name, when you firstly expressed in favour of this proposal (almost three months ago). The official list is in the main presentation post of the concept; you just have to browse the previous pages of this thread. Or, you can simply find the direct link in my forum signature (below any of my posts). Click on Galadriel and you will automatically be redirected to that post.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Feb 2017, 03:02
I managed to find a definitely clearer and broader WETA concept-art of how Galadriel was initially to be portrayed in Dol Guldur.

(http://i.imgur.com/C2ue1Ab.jpg)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Mär 2017, 00:34
I just found these great sketches/3D-animations from WETA, which I think were used for the official action-figures of the Hobbit trilogy. Galadriel is shown holding her phial as she casts the banishment spell on Sauron. It's clearly visible how these concepts do away with the whole grotesque outcome of the cinematographic version, so that it might be legitimate to infer that this kind of depiction may have been WETA's initial intentions. The moderate path Ancient Might tries exactly to stick to.

Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: -DJANGO- am 4. Mai 2017, 20:07
First of all i'd like to say that i appreciate your effort you put into new cencept ideas a lot! Also i'd like to use the moment to thank you for your regular posts on lore related topics - especially Annals of Aman - of which this forum can't get enough!

Regarding your Galadriel concept i have some concerns though.
The lore accuracy of Seaweed-Galadriel may be open for something like this and the film design may be a matter of taste.

However i think, that all the 3000 Heros should be treated equally in sense of variety of abilities including having a second palantir. It doesnt matter that if its Galadriel or Gandalf...to me it feels like some heros would be treated more extensive than others.

Also im pleased with the general splitting of the two different galadriels with ring. Having a white looking default Galadriel is quite important to me, as she is definitely not tempted by power most of the time. Which leads me to the next point... The situations she will transform into this 'medium' appearance are afaik always connected to the ring or sauron, as the source of greater power lies there. So im really not convinced with this kind of implementation.
Some of the abilities and design language would therefore fit more to the Dark Queen Ring form. The Fx of the Dark Queen are already one of my favorites. But the abilities could definitely get an overhaul.

Balance wise this would also fit to the Dark Queen becoming more powerful herself as a hero (also vs other heros) whilst losing big aspects of her leadership.
Because on the balance side of things, i have also my problems with the concept: On top of her great mass slayer abilities she already has, she would be good against heros and at Lvl 10 get a "Word of Power" in combo with a stronger "WitchKing Power Reset". That is something i can not agree with.
Nevertheless i hope this honest feedback will not hold you back to come up with more conceptual ideas! Keep up the good work  ;)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Mai 2017, 22:28
First of all, it's really great of you to have given your precious feedback, DJANGO. I translated the concept in German, but I'm pleased by your coming to the English forum. I also appreciate immensely your praise to the Annals of Aman and the fact that it managed to interest you. Thank you very much  :)

I agree with you, in a sense, that all ultimate heroes (3000-resource heroes) should get an equal treatment, or something similar nonetheless. This was the exact ground for the development of the Narya (https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34278.msg451736.html#msg451736) (I redirected you to the German thread, so that you will also judge my mastering of the language) proposal, which returns the Ring of Fire to its legitimate owner and grants the wizard a very Edain-style stance system. Nevertheless, I'm conscious that a second Palantír might be deemed a bit excessive, yet, in defence of the concept, I shall say: Galadriel is a bit of an exception among all the ultimate heroes, as her abilities and role are mainly supportive and conceived to be ranged. Whereas, as you well know, Gandalf boasts the most powerful and dynamic set of abilities in the game, most of which are the iconic legacy of the old good days of BFME1, when everything was simpler and the Grey Wizard could exterminate armies with his sole magic  xD

As for the medium-nature argument, following in the footsteps of my conceptual considerations, this form is to explore Galadriel's descent in the obscurity of Dol Guldur and the mighty display of prowess she performed, in which the One Ring had no part (as it was in Bilbo's hands). In line with the original vision of WETA (before everything became too much grotesque), such portrayal would have shown the darkest sides of her character that did lie in the depth of her heart, until she was tested by Frodo 60 years after and eventually freed from the curse of the Noldor (renouncing her ambition). We do in fact have in the game a wholly untainted version of the heroine: Blessed Galadriel. The passage of the phial from her to Frodo would be a marvellous detail to insert in the Mod, given that it directly refers to Galadriel having resisted temptation. In my view, this in-between form just adds more to the character, enhances her magical skills and implements the whole atmosphere of the Dol Guldur sequence; with the obvious assurance that her normal characterisation will absolutely remain central (Ancient Might is temporary and is affected by defined limits).

The features I crafted are exactly fitting for Seaweed Galadriel, focusing on interfering properties and long-range influence. I imagine you would agree that the Dark Queen is a considerably different matter, because her concept relies on massive devastation and destruction; conceptually, the Dark Queen is nothing else but Galadriel after having accepted the One Ring, thus becoming a dreadful tyrant. Seaweed Galadriel was instead born from the eerie aspects of her might (a mixture of ancient ambitions and an incredible magical potential, which simple men could easily misjudge as supernatural/violent phenomena) and from the essentials of the banishment scene (where the One Ring is not to be found). Albeit that grotesque touch, Seaweed Galadriel was never evil, and she even held the sacred light of the phial against Sauron (how could the Dark Queen ever use the light of Eärendil?). Speaking about the actual graphical appearance, it's surely quite simplistic, but you have to consider that our solution was the only viable way, lest the Edain Team were put under more strain for graphics. Personally, I see the dark FX as the ghostly aura that Seaweed Galadriel emanates, mutating her (according to WETA's own words) in a kind of underwater spirit, and here you see how the water motive of Nenya is involved (and not the One Ring). Wir könnten diesen Aspekt Seegeist nennen. The German language offers a more precise definition of that  ;)

You can be perfectly sure that I shall endeavour a lot and again for this or other proposals!
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Mai 2017, 02:46
Balance wise this would also fit to the Dark Queen becoming more powerful herself as a hero (also vs other heros) whilst losing big aspects of her leadership.
Because on the balance side of things, i have also my problems with the concept: On top of her great mass slayer abilities she already has, she would be good against heros and at Lvl 10 get a "Word of Power" in combo with a stronger "WitchKing Power Reset".

Pardon me, but I simply forgot to address your balance-related points. If you read some of the previous replies of this discussion, you will see that I debated the issue with Melkor quite extensively. Besides, this is my general answer to the problematics you have mentioned.

As I said, I don't believe that such abilities would ever fit the Dark Queen, since we are talking about a context which is different both in strategy (long-range interference) and in concept (the Dol Guldur sequence). This could hardly be reconciled with the destructive nature of that form. Moreover, it should be borne in mind that the explosion of the banishment deals a little amount of damage and has a good deal smaller radius; anyway, should the issue consist of damage, I could simply do without it, knowing that the main properties of the ability (as a confining spell) reside in spreading terror and resetting other heroes' powers. Then, last but not least, a concluding remark from me: I endeavoured a lot to make sure that normal Galadriel and Seaweed Galadriel remained separated from each other, avoiding the risk of mingling the characteristics and purposes of their concepts. The feature is thus temporary, slows her down and Galadriel is denied her ordinary mass-slayer attack. I find the compromise enough satisfying, in my opinion.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 12. Mai 2017, 14:34
Even if i'm not a fan about the banishment of Sauron in the way PJ intepreted it(as stated yourself: it was a bit grotesque  8-|) i like your concept very much. I think Galadriel deserves something more in this sense. Edain's Galadriel is of course centered as a supportive hero, nevertheless we all know that is capable of doing much more than this. I like the idea of unleash this seaweed form because it reveals another terrible aspect of her (terrible and dark but not necessary evil as you said). Furthermore,as i wrote for Gandalf in the Narya's thread, i like the option to give a second chance to those magic-heroes to defend themselves from hero-killers and monsters.   

Graphically speaking i'm in favour of some non-CGI version. Also the BFME II model seems to be fitting  ;)

I read carefully all the reasons and premises you wrote and i think balance constraints are well designed if not too much severe :) (maybe we can give her direct melee attack but in a much less powerful way with respec to the dark queen from).
 
I'm, in conclusion, in favour of this concept  ;)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Mai 2017, 14:51
It's great to hear that you also appreciate another of the major concepts proposed by the Edain Community. A proposal in which all parts involved poured a lot of pondering and energy. By my side, similarly to Gandalf's specific situation, finding the right compromise among different aspects (and the different interpretations of that scene) was the most daunting phase of the process. But I would be lying, if I said that I'm not content with the final outcome: it is the dearest concept to me, for it was initially born a couple of years ago, in the form of a simple addition, until I and the other people who helped managed to come to the just conclusion, via polishing and progressively adjusting our suggestions. Needless to say, it also deals with my favourite character :P

Restrictions may be severe, it's true, yet adding a basic attack would make things more complicated to handle. Wrath of the Elven Queen (which I recently crafted) makes up a bit for her (needed) offensive lack while in that form.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 12. Mai 2017, 17:03
It will be greateful to unleash the power of the Elven Queen  :D
http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/2/1673/1672467/thumb_620x2000/tumblr_static_tumblr_static_8miogj0c4eckcs0ksscs40ccw_640.gif (http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/2/1673/1672467/thumb_620x2000/tumblr_static_tumblr_static_8miogj0c4eckcs0ksscs40ccw_640.gif)

As animation of the power i like the one of Wrath of the Winter of Chronicles Edain submod. It's a cool white shockwave i think would be fitting :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Mai 2017, 17:18
Yes, that display of power would exactly compensate her offensive inertia, although the ability itself doesn't deal considerable harm and it is more meant to create distance from the enemies 8-)

I don't know the animation you referred to. Can you provide a screen or brief video of the effect? Nevertheless, I guess a general white shockwave would be very much fitting.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 12. Mai 2017, 17:30
That's what i'm talking about 8-) (first power showed in the video):
https://youtu.be/U8mHuIij5fY
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Mai 2017, 17:43
Ah, ok. That's Ealendril's Submod. I had not realised it.

You're right! That rendition is probably the nearest thing to the actual blast of BOTFA. If it's possible to clean it from Sauron's sound and that heating effect at the beginning, it would be much better. As a new addition, Word of Power's swift sound will do well :)

I shall add the video to the presentation post.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 12. Mai 2017, 18:01
Exactly i haven't specified that but the sound is clearly not fitting so needs to be replaced ;) And also the heating effect. i'm happy you like it xD.
If i understand well it's a total Ealendril's creation this particular shockwave (i don't remeber to ever seen something similar in Edain neither in the vanilla game). So maybe we can call his aid and also ask for his permission  xD
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Mai 2017, 18:06
Ealendril is no longer the leader of the Edain Team, nor is he still an active member. Said that, I think all contents from the Submod (which is related to the Edain Mod) may be used by the Edain Team without any problem. As for graphics, I suppose it's a matter of codes (thus viable); if it's not, I don't think modifying that would be a so daunting of a deed :)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 12. Mai 2017, 18:18
Yes i know i read his message on moddb some months ago :( . I used the word "call" in the sense if he wander around here sometime maybe he can help. But probably he hasn't time enough  :(. Anyway my friend your are right probably it's only a matter of code.
As for the contents and rights of the team you are surely more updated and learned than me  :) 
i want to say it's an honor to have found a new idea for your beautiful concept  8-)
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: NoldorSithLordsShipwright am 17. Mai 2017, 10:48
DieWalkure, I like your ideas. You have my yes.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: The_Nazgul am 17. Mai 2017, 11:02
Some great wonderful ideas here!
No, I Don't like the Seaweed form really, i LOVE it!
Everything needed has been said and discussed in terms of balancing the powers and i like how this can only be activated when she is on low health and only can be activated in great needs.

Having an temporary ancient terrible form for her as an elf who followed the mighty feanor, who lived under the might of melian and the one who gathered knowledge and wisdom for over 10,000 years and finally the bearer of the ring of protection, nenya .

So as a ring-wraith i withstand with the might of ancient and have nothing to add therefore as 22 persons have already merged their aspects on this topic.
You have my morgul blade!

Btw i love your avatar DieWalküre the goddes of war, athena and the goddes of love, artemis were (still are) my favors in greek mythologies!
Age of Mythology was also awesome, i have a lot of memories with it..Oh those good old RTS games shall never be forgotten!
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Mai 2017, 12:09
DieWalkure, I like your ideas. You have my yes.

And you have my sincere gratitude for having given way to the proposal. I shall gladly include your name too :)

Having an temporary ancient terrible form for her as an elf who followed the mighty feanor, who lived under the might of melian and the one who gathered knowledge and wisdom for over 10,000 years and finally the bearer of the ring of protection, nenya.

Btw i love your avatar DieWalküre the goddes of war, athena and the goddes of love, artemis were (still are) my favors in greek mythologies!
Age of Mythology was also awesome, i have a lot of memories with it..Oh those good old RTS games shall never be forgotten!

Your lively enthusiasm does please me a good deal, dear ring-wraith. You have pretty much summarised the essence of my concept, which I think that only a project of this magnitude (the Edain Mod) could genuinely bring to life. It is an ensemble of prime elements, both from the canonical sources and from the Hobbit trilogy equally; yet everything is measured and fittingly adapted to the contingencies of the very game. I'm sure this idea of ours will absolutely magnify Galadriel's overall role. She, who existed before the first dawn and sunset of Arda 8-)

It's true. Our beloved Age of Mythology shall always be remembered in the annals of strategy and mythology/antiquity themselves. My childhood has deeply to do with this acclaimed series and the game thus gave me irreplaceable memories of the past. Really merry times. Furthermore, yes, I love Athena. Not everyone probably knows that her earlier characterisation (Homer's epic compositions) was thoroughly intertwined with war. Yet she represents a different kind of war, for she is the personification of the just war (fighting for ideals), military strategy and justice. The nemesis of Ares, who instead embodies all the tragedies that war causes, along with cruel and senseless violence. The two gods fought once, and Athena obviously towered over his divine brother ;)

Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 21. Mai 2017, 13:57
Whilst collecting the sound for the Ulumúri, I also bumped into other interesting tracks, that I think might do well for Galadriel. Specifically, I found a new sound for her basic attack against buildings, which could replace the current effect or be simply mingled with it. It is a mixture between lightning and thunder, recreating the atmosphere of a storm (whose duration is moderately short and thus apt for the case). The rumbling of stormy weather will undoubtedly give a very impacting of a result in the game, symbolising the might of whom casts the attack. Although I had already proposed a similar rendition, my attempts would often be frustrated by the lack of a proper ensemble or by an inadequate duration.

Moreover, I have another suggestion. I have a sound that could be used for Eerie Aura, or for her in general, as a passive theme that goes in loop (perhaps with a proper interval). The track is perfect to convey the idea of the eerie emanation of Seaweed Galadriel and to give the impression of a pervading magical spell that surrounds her.

Sounds: Storm (https://soundcloud.com/diewalk-re/galadriels-storm?in=diewalk-re/sets/galadriels-additional-sounds) and Eerie Aura (https://m.soundcloud.com/diewalk-re/you-have-no-power?in=diewalk-re/sets/galadriels-additional-sounds).
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: REAPER357 am 10. Jan 2018, 03:12
You have my major support with this idea m8...

And here are few suggestions from the lore side of our beautiful Lady of the Light:
First, if you hadn't played BOTTA mod of BFME2 check it out ( i am not comparing), Galadriel per say is not very well done mechanically but there are interesting ideas about the hero model which i would like to point out but can't find pictures or other data to display... (I will reference what i mean at the end)

Let's talk appearance.. That non CGI seaweed form that you showed is gorgeous.. Perfect one might say... but (I'll try not to get to deep into the lore but try to understand where I am coming from with this) I would prefer that non CGI seaweed form for her to have when she takes the ring, and perhaps the current model of "Dark" queen to be the appearance of the stance she changes into willingly...

Explanation: Galadriel is the Lady of the Light. I dunno why it's generally thought that she would go Dark by taking the ring (bear with me :D ).. She has enough will power to contest Sauron and with that in mind she would be able to utilize the One ring as she would wish.. It would enhance her power.. The One ring would in the end game deceive her of thinking that her goals justify the means of her doing bad things but it wouldn't be as obvious as going full Dark... And that is why I adore that non CGI photo that you posted.. It gives a feeling of her being her with just little subtle bits of darkness.. (check this out for better understanding of what i mean..  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dnhIWdW5_8&t=5s )

On the other hand.. These are my thoughts on the form that she takes in FotR and BotFA:  She is powerful by default, no doubt about that, but I feel like, that in situations that require more, dire moments (like at Dol Guldur), she just channels all the power she has at once to deal with the threat causing her to appear Seaweed like because of a lot of power and exertion.. That is why she drains rapidly as you yourself stated..

With the One ring she would wield enough power at all times so she would never have to exert herself to that extent as without it (I'm not saying that seaweed form is more powerful.. It isn't.. Just is harder to sustain and shows the short burst of power).. That is why I feel like the forms are more suited this way..

Abilities: As far as this goes, I think that you pretty much nailed it to the spot.. I agree with not putting earthquake (It'd be OP) but I'd like to see perhaps 50% dmg boost to auto attack against buildings (over the initial boost to auto attack in seaweed form) and her range of auto attack lessened (not to melee range) compared to normal form but with a slight knockback (like the original model in BFME2 )..

The mod that I mentioned (Battles of the Third Age) has Seaweed form and her manual form switch already, and her "Dark" queen form when equipped with the One ring, so I really recommend taking a look for inspiration.. It's not so well done in other aspects compared to Edain mod..

She also has one ability called "White Blast" or sth, that would very well fit to your Wrath of the Elven Queen.. It is a targeting ability and when casted it blasts the initial enemy with high damage and blasts away surrounding enemies dealing moderate damage... Pretty nice animation for it also.. (In that mod she has that ability in normal form though I'd like to see it in seaweed)..

Finally, ability names:
I would name form switch "Wrath of the Elven Queen"  (you may make it so that she drains power or just make it so that duration is not long and that cooldowns may be used once per form switch, and that last ability ending it prematurely)

1st ab: Eerie sounds a bit silly ( :D not worthy enough of our Queen if you get me) , I'd go with sth like "Latent aura of the Noldor" referencing her strong elven heritage or "Radiance of the Two Trees" or just "Aura of the Two Trees" :) dont have it that allies get the debuff also plz.. Leave that for Ring form..

2nd ab: Name it a blast of some kind.. Dunno.. Perhaps "Light blast" or just simply "Blast" (as it is a spell with the single intention to damage and blast.. it would feel epic just naming it "Blast")

3rd ab:  (if you don't use 'Radiance' for first spell) this one could be "Radiance of confinement".. "Light of the Earendil star" (make it so that it works on every hero except ring heroes, cuz she has more power than anyone else honestly)

4th ab:  This could be "Wrath of the Elven queen" as well , "Sterling power of light" or sth..

One more suggestion considering general model of Galadriel as a hero in this mod.. Give her most of the abilities at the beginning (if not all) just lessen them accordingly and make them increase with each level.. She is one of the oldest beings on middle earth so having her with 1 ability is kind downgrading much.. And for crying out loud give her a heal.. She is almost literally the incarnation of light in Tolkiens middle earth.. let her heal allied units with auto attack (aoe, so 5 soldiers i. e. , and when healing heroes to be a single target heal but a bit more potent) in normal form when not in combat, that would be dope..

I rest my case with this.. She will have enormous skill set (true) but with proper scaling that can be balanced easily...
Btw, I could probably do most of the things about this new form myself in a day or two (not much coding needed, just copy/paste and some stats changes) but some1 needs to show me how to edit Edain :D

P.S. Wal, it's your fault this is a bit long.. You inspired me greatly ^^ :D
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Jan 2018, 17:56
May you be praised, really! Thank you so much for having accepted the advice and stated your frank opinion on the matter; it is always needed. This is the concept I am fond of the most and it's thus ever-refreshing to discuss it with other good souls :)

It pleases me a good deal the fact that we eventually share a similar vision in regards to the seaweed form. It's quite unfortunate that it got misinterpreted or heavily chastised, sometimes, although I recognise that the whole articulate lore construction that sustains my logic might prove very tough to go through; that's why it took me some time to conceive the very reasoning. And, I tell you this, it is in fact a matter of wrath. Not entirely in the strict physical definition, because it also has to do with her sorrowful past, concerning therefore grief in equal manner. Namely, it is her fierce hatred and contempt for anything committed by either Morgoth or Sauron. Quality that merges with her ancient magical knowledge and finally results in an impressive combination. And this very theme draws the line between her being tempted by the One Ring (her long-time ambitions, entombed in her heart) and our seaweed appearance. I would like to stress this difference, as it is fundamental for our scope: exploring an additional side of her character, without our attempt turning into a replica of other existing elements. In brief words: we desperately seek uniqueness and I made sure that the concept itself was unique (I hope).

In line with the aforementioned points, I would like the switch option to be named as it currently is: not only is it a comprehensive definition, comprising what I explained above, but it also references her very old power. She's one of the oldest beings left and this I find very pivotal to mention. Moreover, I also guess that the other names are equally apt for our case; they all have a reason behind: the blast focuses on her wrath and kind of connects to the general (wrong) assumption among mortals that Galadriel is the Elven Queen, the third ability is a direct quotation from one of her lines in the very film and the last one just had to be named that way (Sauron is literally banished from his infested fortress and the mentioning of the Void should remind one of the very immaterial prison in which Morgoth was confined). As you may see, every word is measured and serves a purpose. Nevertheless, I quite agree with Eerie Aura: I liked the alliteration of the sound, yet the adjective seems not so much fine-tuned. What about Uncanny Presence? The very adjective conveys the exact vision of something both mysterious, unexplainable and that causes dread at the same time (how magic was often perceived by lesser beings, even when performed by good characters).

Besides, I'm very glad that the concept inspired you to write an essay or, as we call it, wall of text. Thanks for the compliment; you made me weep a little. I did weep :D
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Jan 2018, 16:54
It seemed that it was time for a thread renovation even for this proposal. The main concept has been published and it may be read in the very first post now.

Also, a small update regarding the proposal: 'Eerie Aura' has been renamed to Uncanny Presence. The adjective conveys the meaning of the ability in better terms and it fits well our scope. The former title had a slightly negative connotation, whereas Galadriel's appearance should not give this impression. It is something otherworldly, mysterious, unexplainable and apprehensive at the same time; that is, it may provoke both marvel and dread, but not due to some specific negative traits. Those are recurrent archetypes that are often associated with the Evil. In our case, instead, we are in front of a supernatural prodigy, as common Men deemed magic in the late Third Age, but in no way malicious or wicked. This is the main reason why I thought that the name ought to be changed.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: REAPER357 am 31. Jan 2018, 00:23
Great.. Love how it worked out... When should we expect this be implemented??
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 31. Jan 2018, 01:04
Great.. Love how it worked out... When should we expect this be implemented??

I can't give you assurances or other certain statements whatsoever, unfortunately. As Gandalf tells his friends on the shore of the sea, my work in this thread is now finished, apart from keeping track of additional feedback. Now, our hope is in the hands of the Edain Team. It is up to them to discuss the proposal and do what they deem the just solution.

The only thing I may say is that both this concept and Narya received an incredible amount of support throughout the forum, and I don't think I have ever seen other suggestions which could boast a similar reception from the public. I am very glad of that and hope it will be of some well-boding avail for our scope.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Dain@ am 5. Feb 2018, 12:39
Oh you updated the icons and the idea! Perfect and amazing! And I really feel sorry for her enemies! To get under the rage of a beautiful lady is probably what every enemy would like to avoid. If you manage to balance her abilities so that it does not look so merciless then this idea must be realized!
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 5. Feb 2018, 13:30
I did update some of the icons, but that was some time ago. The most recent change involved the name of an ability. Nothing major. And I'm glad you still like the holistic suggestion.

I feel that balance is and will be a quite tough aspect to deal with, but I'm totally fine with that, provided that the essence of the concept is not altered or twisted. That is the most important thing; thank you for the support nonetheless.
Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 21. Jan 2019, 12:31
This is one of the longest threads on English forum ... but I never thought that we'd ever see the light at the end of the tunnel  :) ...
What is really interesting ... that ET used only the best aspects of these proposals and made unique heroine who is worthy of her price and lore status.
And finally valuable gifts and Galadriel's direct connection to heroes! Using them like pieces on Middle-earth chess board and channeling her powers through them in the great fight against evil.
And when she is forced enter directly into the skirmish, then enemies flee in terror or are devastated by her might!

Valuable and interesting abilities, but still quite balanced, cause she is vulnerable to all heroes and monsters. Her previous Power of the seer - map revelation - was extremely OP in multiplayer matches.

Her spellbook forms (or upgrades as I am saying), and then ring forms, are finally conceptual!
Permanent supportive aura which adds bonuses to key Lorien's gameplay aspects (attack, range, speed) on the one hand, and offensive but temporar Twilight's skillset on the other ... clear and direct concepts which offer player choice how to play with faction leader.  :)

All three forms are now connected in terms of power (she didn't match at all in previous version, all forms were so different).

Twilight queen isn't so destructive and strong like in the past, cause her temptation speech also matches with new units-disruptor abilities.
I also really like that normal Galadriel causes fear and units flee from her, while Twilight's gaze completely stuns them. Minor detail (that it was switched), but really nice one!

But mainly Galadriel blessed is really blessed! Only blessed from the heaven by Earendil and not one of the most OP heroes in the game like in the previous version ...  8-| ... where she got upgraded AoE attack (which meant massive gold circle) and was able to destroy whole armies from the distance. And when you wanted to finish her, it means send heroes or monsters to her location, she used Level 3: Memory of Laurelin and Telperion ability, and your heroes were gone  :o ...
... angelic Galadriel deadlier than Sauron ...  :P

P.S. So now only rework of the Gifts of Lorien remains ... and circle will be complete. :)

https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35645.msg472764.html#msg472764 (https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35645.msg472764.html#msg472764)


Titel: Re: Galadriel
Beitrag von: Walküre am 21. Jan 2019, 14:49
And so we meet, at last, by the shore of the ancient Galadriel thread...

Firstly, welcome to Modding Union, again, where all was born and started :)

I'm glad that you've come back to rekindle the flame of a slumbering forum. In the past two years, I made sure to keep the most crucial debates alive and afloat, alongside addressing other vital matters for the game. I think that most of the community have already endeavoured a lot, and spent much of their forces in participating in the latest big major discussions; understandably, many are now waiting for the next release and simply counting the days that separate them from finally playing with Edain 4.5. Nevertheless, I'm personally more than satisfied with the general and public feedback so far. The majority of groundbreaking concepts, dearest to me, have always got the best reception possible from the forum.

As I've told you on ModDB, some things have changed from how it used to be in the past. Mainly, I do not have as much time as I would enjoy just a couple of years ago. So, Necro has recently been appointed as the second English moderator, whom I'm sure will do a fantastic job with tackling current and future moderation contingencies. From my part, I'm mostly focusing my halved energy into internal activities (wonderful occupation), and it definitely requires more than it would in the early life of the English Beta forum (in addition to personal literary works of mine). However, I'm staunchly and firmly willing to accomplish my own paramount 'mission'. That is, ensuring that the amazing, remaining proposals from my list are written off, too.

If you seek to stay true to the same proposition, I shall gladly co-operate with the most productive and positive intentions. Very rarely have we not seen eye to eye in regards to apparently-minor details, sounds or graphics; even more, when it comes to the very, deepest, central meaning of a given concept, and the necessity to adapt it to the essence of a trilogy which we both like and to the truest Edain-natured spirit of the modification.

Therefore, I hope this new year was born under a very lucky star. It seems that, whenever we join forces and unite efforts for a greater scope, wonders do happen. Hence, may we hereafter wreak only good and prodigy ;)



Indeed! After Elrond thread, this is the most popular, dense and longest topic of the forum's English section. And, as I would equally say in respect to its twin-debate on Rivendell's wise lord, this Lady of Light-centred wall of comments has eventually resulted in utter, complete success.

Abilities have been either fixed or wholly replaced, in favour of more specialised and impressive powers. Overall, the former 'boring', quite inconsistent and dispersive Galadriel has been rectified and fine-tuned with the new paradigm of the forthcoming patch. No more global (too global) features and very little appeal; now, in your words, she may utilise her magic at the notable service of heroes (as an ever-present, angelic mentor), in the most lore-accurate of the ways. Thanks to the newly-reforged spellbook, moreover, the player will have the enormously-useful, evocative chance to let her potential loose, given the fact that she's unanimously hailed as the most powerful sorceress dwelling in Middle-earth.

As you may have noticed, the initial goal of my concept was not to come up with unpleasant surrogates of the Dark Queen. Nevertheless, I have made up my mind in the voluble course of time, realising that two 'demo-versions' of both Ring forms are the best compromise we could have reached, and not without contrasting opinions. Also, her dark form will always be impressed in any LOTR fan, as one of the most iconic moments from the first chapter of the trilogy (the most fairytale-like, by the way). It would have been quite a pity, if her 'mermaid-guise' had still been tied solely to the One Ring. Fortunately, all players will soon be able to hear her terrifying temptation lines in the game, even though the One Ring has not been found and given to her. It's what everyone expects to see, after all. The real prowess of the Elf-witch!

Regardless of starting premises, I guess that my evergreen desire to bring some bits of the Dol Guldur sequence has been satisfied as well. What is even more remarkable, I daresay, is the fact that both the banishment ability and Nenya go back a very long time, unto the elder days of the now-deceased EIC, when the community was young and fervent. It's thus magnificent to have, finally, my two beloved proposals in the game. Quite a due homage to bygone modding ages 8-)

P.S. Nice contrast between our avatar pictures. It's curious to see that we're probably the only ones (very few) with Galadriel images, around here. How very strange of us! :D