Modding Union
[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Mordor Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: Azog The Defiler am 13. Feb 2016, 20:01
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Please read
Before commenting any further, the concept has been reworked.
So i decided to rework this concept completly, for several reasons, but mainly because of constructive critique which i thank you for:) And to make it more reasonable.
Now this is a lot of text, but a lot of it is pictures videos and descriptions of designs, the actual changes wouldnt be that much.
Mordor at the moment is perfect concerning units and balance. Its mostly unit desings that worry me. If you are a big fan of the Minas Morgul army as most people are then the faction is more than perfect. But if you, like me want to have a Dol Guldur army like in the movie the faction feels as if the Dol Guldur part is a little left out.
So heres what i propose to give all the players who liked the army in the hobbit an army they deserve.
And im not expecting any of this soon (or ever) But maybe when all factions are out, it could be a nice little project:D
Mordor concept
Now this concept does not affect the game play in any way. That is a statement i want to make, so there will be no changes concerning balance to make for this change to be able.
The concept is mainly about changing unit desings to give the player more feeling when playing the faction. And the the other changes dont change balance but i think youll find them pretty awesome!
The idea
In the beginning of the game you choose between Dol Guldur and Minas Morgul as if you chose between two subfactions.
But the only thing that changes are the designs of your units to fit the army you want to build. And the other things that change dont really change the balance, which is one new unit, but you will see;)
Heroes
-Minas Morgul - Gothmog
-Dol Guldur - The general of Dol Guldur
-I will come to his design later
Troll cave
Works as normally with Saurons influence
If Minas Morgul is chosen
-trolls have the classic armor they have now
If Dol Guldur is chosen
-trolls have the armor they have in botfa
Orc pit
-The orc pit is now able to build Overseers from the very beginning, but they are weaker than they are now.
-Now when you use Saurons influence on the orc pit you unlock orc captains, which have the same effect as the overseers they are only stronger, but they have different designs based on which faction you choose
-Minas Morgul: Minas Morgul Captain
-Dol Guldur: Dol Guldur captain
-The captains are more expensive than the overseers and work as usual with the slave camp bonus.
-Dol Guldur captains have the look of the orc in front of azogs army
http://media.moddb.com/images/members/1/874/873509/ORC13.jpg
-Minas Morgul captains would have the look of Guritz http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/4/4b/Crew_of_Guritz.png/revision/latest?cb=20121127120505
Dol Guldur
-The Dol Guldur orcs get a slight rework, mainly concerning helmets, swords, spears and the armor they have on their backs in the movie, and the variation in shields.
-They also get the same animation of the Minas Morgul orcs, instead of the normal orc animation they have now.
The General of Dol Guldur
-The general of Dol Guldur would be a leader hero instead of Gothmog if you choose Dol Guldur in the beginning
-He wil practically have the same abilities as Gothmog but with a little tweaks to fit Dol Guldur army better.
-Level 1 Dol Guldur reinforcements, Summon a unit of Dol Guldur orcs (this ability gets better as he levels up)
-Level 2 Mount up
-Level 4 Leadership
-Level 6 Commander of legions, The general can give experience to units in a medium sized area
- Level 10 Come forth my armies, The general gives all the orcs a large increase in damage and movement speed
Now moving on to his design. Now i dont know if many will oppose this design, but i think it is perfect.
So there is a art design for Azog with a helmet. I want to give Azogs battle armor to this character with the helmet. And give the armor a Darker colour to fit the Dol Guldur orcs better. He would of course have two hands so you dont confuse him with The Defiler.
And to make it clear, they arent the samne character in the game. The General of Dol Guldur just wear Azogs movie armor with a couple of tweaks.
I think this is a good idea because since The Defiler is a part of MM, it is a little weird for him to have armor in class with the troops from Mordor. So the defiler stays the way he is and gets no extra armor. This way it interferes even less with the lore.
http://scontent-b.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xfa1/t51.2885-15/s306x306/e15/10949006_432542910242073_1101637886_n.jpg Heres the helmet for him, which i think looks epic! the one to the left or in the middle is good.
http://www.artofvfx.com/HOBBIT3/HOBBIT3_WETA_ITW_06.jpg
http://www.thelandofshadow.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/HobbitBFATrailer2n.jpg
http://www.larpinn.co.uk/images/orclongsword.jpg
http://pre00.deviantart.net/c34d/th/pre/i/2015/177/9/1/skyrim_orcish_greatsword_by_doublezerofx-d8yv9ff.jpg
These would be cool weapons for him, but bigger, or more broad.
The General of Dol Guldur would ride the same warg as Gothmog, but a black one instead, to really differ him from the Defiler.
So with this design he wouldnt look anything like The Defiler, exept his size, but other than that nothing alike, so the Dol Guldur orcs would get a worthy leader.
IMAGES AND VIDEOS:
Dol Guldur trolls:
http://r58.imgup.net/Trolls9240.png
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHHrPA80j7E
Dol Guldur orcs:
http://media.moddb.com/images/members/1/874/873509/ORC13.jpg
https://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/v3/media/galerie/hobbit001/dos_trailer2/dos39-cb210126.jpg
I like the design on the armor on their backs in this and the following one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THu4gwA2GQA at 0:25 Also that is a great war chant for the orcs!
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/peter-jacksons-the-hobbit/images/0/08/The_Battle_of_Five_Armies_04.png/revision/latest?cb=20151017173805 heres the different shield i was talking about
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/pjmidearthfilms/images/0/06/Azog's_Lieutenant_3.png/revision/latest?cb=20150609023812 this helmet is pretty cool
http://media.moddb.com/images/members/1/874/873509/Gundabag_concept_art1.jpg
Come forth my armies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW-IgJHM3cY Also in this clip we can see the orcs have two different kinds of shields, i think the swordsman troop should have both shields at random.
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With all the due respect: No.
This is a great idea and you have thoroughly explained it but I'm getting a serious MM vibe from the Dol Guldur part. And you haven't done as much work on the Minas Morgul part which really makes it rather unbalanced.
Mordor has a variety and mass of different troops, however, are weaker in direct fight
The number of troops is a key strategy for Mordor, all of its units are weaker then their equivalent in other faction (even though free orcs is definitely a plus) along with that they have very little upgrades and no armor upgrades, where as Isengard can push forth pretty far with uruk paired with shields and upgraded to level 5, once you've paired orcs with overseers that's pretty much how far you get for permanent boost combos.
Without the witch-king, Mordor loses its most powerful hero killer (apart from gorthaur), without Khamul it is severely cut on the building destruction side. Along with that the Dread visage will lose some power as all the nazguls can no longer be recruited.
Drummer trolls, while vastly underused, can be effectively used to power up troops, taking them away, along with the heavily armored Minas Morgul units will seriously cut back on the damage Mordor can inflict.
As for the siege that's too many trolls, the Defiler would be the first hero present in two factions permanently, the were-worms are much more iconic to MM then Dol-Guldur who prefers to slowly spread its corruption.
Overall it's too much like MM, although we know little from it. And finally (a final grain of salt) how can something be more complete if we split it in two? The sub-factions complement each other one based on raw power and the other on magic and cunning trick of deceit. Your ideas are very well presented and thoroughly researched but I think you are targeting the wrong parts of the mod.
Sincerely,
The Necromancer
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Sorry, Azog, if I might seem to be always categorically against your ideas or unappreciative.
But, as the Necromancer made very valid counter arguments, this proposal doesn't convince me either.
The main reason is that I don't really understand the purposes behind these changes; plus, I kind of notice some similarities both in content and in intentions with your previous MM suggestion.
I think you are still concerned about how giving Azog his commander motive of BOTFA and looking for a representation of Dol Guldur much closer to the one of the Hobbit (while it already is very similar, I would say) xD
I have the feeling that Mordor would be unnecessarily fragmented, and have its conceptual essence divided, taking also into consideration that Mordor itself is indeed characterised by a wide diversity, kept together though by the authoritarian and terrible leadership that Sauron represents and uses to convey all his desires and plans of dominion.
The Dwarves can rely on this system – the subfactions – given each realm's independence and autonomy regarding various aspects.
It's true that Mordor would remain the core faction, but I don't understand why one subfaction should exclude the other, when they can easily coexist as in the current system :)
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Well most of my ideas are made because of the next reasons:
When playing Mordor as of now, im a huge fan of the evil army in botfa (most of it)
And seeing as of now Mordor is the only faction providing any material from the movie, the MM faction only provides only the leader, Azog going as the defiler, and even he is not part of his own army, the Dol Guldur army.
And the only thing from the botfa army in the game is the Dol Gudur orcs, but its not really the same as you have them mixed with all the stuff from Minas Morgul, such as trolls, catapults, Grond etc.
It would be really awesome to be able to choose wether youre in the mood fro some lotr or hobbit battles.
A better idea
Maybe a better idea would be to choose in the beginning between the two but neither one gets removed, just things like designs get changed.
So playing as Minas Morgul it would be exactly the same as it is now, and playing as Dol Guldur would have some of the changes i mentioned but you would still have the ability to have both fortresses, you would just get more bonuses for either one based upon which faction you choose to play.
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Well I wouldn't consider Azog as part of Dol Guldur, he is the leader of the Gundabad orcs (or Moria orcs during the battle of Azanulbizar) Gundabad/Moria = Misty Mountains. Edain aims to be more true to the lore than to the movies; for that reason Azog does not belong to Mordor, because he didn't have anything to do with Mordor or Dol Guldur.
Furthermore, in the mod, the Defiler is not Azog, the team only took his title and appearance. So it wouldn't make sense to transfer the Defiler to Mordor as he is the leader of Gundabad, not Dol Guldur.
I find Mordor to be one of the most enjoyable factions in the game, it doesn't need these changes imo.
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little question guys :
as far as i know the dul guldor's orcs are from The Misty Mountains just like azog and they came to dul guldor to make un Alliance with The Necromancer .
is that info right ?
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Yeah (in the movie then xD).
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little question guys :
as far as i know the dul guldor's orcs are from The Misty Mountains just like azog and they came to dul guldor to make un Alliance with The Necromancer .
is that info right ?
WHO SUMMONS ME? I SHALL SMITE ALL IMPUDENT.... what do you mean not me? ahhh the other necromancer, my bad, carry on.
While this is correct according to the wiki, the same wiki also states that this is non-canon since it comes from the movie. Also while it is true that they come from the MM the Team has customized them to adapt them to the poisonous aura of Dol Guldur.
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Yes in the movie it was Moria orcs that gathered in Dol Guldur, and probably from other parts also. Gandalf talks about the army as "ranks and ranks of moria orcs".
But yea thats only the hobbit, i nthe book there was no allience between them and Dol Guldur.
But does anyone see my point, that the faction only supports a Minas Morgul army, the Dol Guldur part of the faction feels a little left out, since you can only have the orcs, and not the epic trolls etc.
It would be nice to be able to have atleast the trolls from the hobbit besides your army.
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The trolls could be an interesting addition, this would most probably help with the current troll problem, supplying the player with heavily armored trolls ready for combat instead of the mountain trolls that should serve as portable sieg but get shot down too fast. Adding some sort of troll is definitely an idea I support
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Glad to hear you liked something of it:DD
But i made a few changes for the concept, perhaps a little bit more resonable, now nothing changes for the ones who already liked the faction, but for those wanting a little bit more hobbit would get their minds blown!:)
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Yes in the movie it was Moria orcs that gathered in Dol Guldur, and probably from other parts also. Gandalf talks about the army as "ranks and ranks of moria orcs".
Which makes me believe PJ actually completely forget the first trilogy, because it makes absolutely no sense, considering the Moria orcs looked like how orcs / goblins are supposed to look (small & degenerated) and not like the 3m high, battle-crazy, hulking behemoths of the Hobbit. 8-|
And calling most these trolls "epic" is something I couldn't agree less. The first step in the creative process of creating these trolls probably was something like: "Well, we have some special effects budget left. OK, these trolls look just too realistic. Well, first let's increase the size of the trolls by 20... no, that's too small... ok, 100%." And so, the BotFA trolls came into this world. :D
This of course doesn't apply to the normal armored trolls of the Hobbit, they looked fine. But things like the Trolltapult or the Battering Troll were all scenes when I was just laughing hysterically in the cinema.
However speaking from a gameplay sense: Mordor has already the biggest roster of troops of all the factions. So what's the point in adding more trolls? I remember that way back in the past when Edain was massively more random, Mordor had a total of 5 different types of trolls, 3 of them were mostly the same. There is a reason why the ET was able to tune it down to 2 trolls without actually losing something gameplay wise.
Also historically, that's what Mordor is... ;) Shoehorning Sauron and Dol Guldur into the main antagonists of the Hobbit was already dumb enough as it is (because it opens a whole new meaning to the term "bad planning"). It also means that it wasn't Mordor which attacked in the BotFA, so design Mordor according to something, that isn't Mordor? The orc models are an exception to this because the Misty Mountains already have a Gundabad design, Dol Guldurs design is of course unknown, so these orc models were basically just lying around.
Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
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Well the only "new" troll unit would be the siege trolls and they would only be if you chose Dol Guldur in the beginning of the game to add a litle bit more "hobbit" into your gameplay.
The other armored trolls is just a different design your trolls get as you choose your theme in the beginning of the game.
And the trolls would be normal sized, as i stated in the begining, bringing only the good stuff from the hobbit:D
And Dol Guldur launched an attack on the Elves at practically the same time Minas Morgul launched their attack on Minas Tirith, there is just no material of that. But the orcs and trolls probably had a very different armor there than in the regions close to Mordor.
Also fun fact, i think PJ mentioned at some time that he had no idea what he was doing when he did the Hobbit movies..:D The lotr trilogy he planned for several years before he made it, so that probably why he fcked up so badly.
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Before I go into my opinion on this idea, I would like to say that I'm pretty sure it is impossible to have different spellbooks for subfaction (which is why all 3 Dwarven Subfactions have the same Spellbook powers).
I do like a lot of the ideas suggested, but I'm not a fan of the major idea of changing Mordor like this. However, it would be cool to see some of these elements added to the Misty Mountains faction itself. Maybe a Spellbook that allows the faction to summon Dol Guldur orcs and/or Siege Trolls would be pretty cool.
Also, I do agree that the Dol Guldur outpost is overshadowed by the Minas Morgul outpost, because Heavy Armour for orcs is just a more useful upgrade then the Poison Blades in my opinion. However, I don't really see a way to change this without just adding more units to Dol Guldur or weakening the Minas Morgul orcs, both of which I strongly don't want to happen.
I do like the ideas presents here though, and would love to see some of them expanded on.
Yeah, after I really think about it, Sauron summoning Moria orcs to attack Erebor from Dol Guldur in PJ's Hobbit Trilogy doesn't really make much sense, especially since they look NOTHING like they do in the Lotr Trilogy.
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Before I go into my opinion on this idea, I would like to say that I'm pretty sure it is impossible to have different spellbooks for subfaction (which is why all 3 Dwarven Subfactions have the same Spellbook powers).
Correct.
It's the main reason why Arnor couldn't be implemented with that switching/subfaction system as well, along with other conceptual reasons.
It's a technical issue that can't be overcome.
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While I would like to see some of the movie Trolls implemented, it wouldn't be the case to overpopulate Mordor even more.
As said before, I'd rather see Trolls implemented in the Misty Mountains, with the following criteria:
-Moria fornishing Cave Trolls; average price, highly versatile, both melee and long-rage, but weaker than Mordor's Mountain Troll. That's the classic and it should stay that way
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/a/af/Cave_troll.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110205163259)
-Gundabad giving off their own version of Attack Troll; high price, damage slightly higher than cave troll with tree trunk but very high armor, but as slow as Ents
(http://i.imgur.com/ecX5x20.png)
-Goblintown gives access to Troll Catapults; the most mobile siege engine in the game, more ranged damage than Cave Troll with boulder, but far more vulnerable (the most squishy siege unit I'd say)
(http://i.imgur.com/0MuUrDX.jpg)
As stupid as some considers most of these creatures to be, it's actually very functional: those engines were built and supposed to move along tunnels, be they worm-made or Goblin-made, regardless of the Worm's concept being acceptable or not. And you simply cannot move a wheeled catapult in a tunnel..but if it has legs, then that's different. And it's operated by Goblins (Goblintown's specifically) whom are shown to be even slightly shorter than Dwarves. Even the Troll Ram, however stupid it may seem, made sense: a quick way to bring down a wall and get inside. Those armies were made up very fast, kind of like Isengard, but in an even more desperate rush, and with whatever could be found around.
I know that the main siege unit for the MM are supposed to be the Giants, but of those I was never convinced..
As for Trolls size, I'd say to stick to Cave Troll size. In the movie they might have looked bigger, but I believe that was more for the fact that they had Goblins on their backs and were facing mostly Dwarves. But even if they were bigger, I don't see the problem: many abominations did Sauron create, and these Trolls were even more twisted to give the feeling that he was really making out his armies with whatever he could take.
Sorry for the disgression, but I wanted to let this point known.
As for Dol Guldur/Minas Morgul functionality, it's actually all a matter of what you want to play. For exemple, in certain occasions you will need one of the two first. Against Elves, you might prefer Morgul Orcs, if anything for more durable arcers with flaming arrows, even if poison damage might very well counter Elven healing.
Against Dwarves, you need Dol Guldur for a simple reason: Khamul and his demolition band. In a siege, I find little more important than having Khamul around: you just need to park him outside enemy walls and watch them crumble. That said, Castellans are also very useful, spiders, on the other hand...
BUT, a summoning spell that calls help from Dol Guldur is fine for MM, so we can have the whole Hobbit feel.
Yeah, PJ and crew worked on a schedule that was not tight, but blade-thin, so i am quite content with what came out :) and honestly, if those are Moria Orcs, they could just be a different breed: technically Azog had taken Moria, wouldn't make little sense if some Gundabad Orcs moved there as well. They probably didn't dwell deep enough to meet the Balrog, as they still had normal-sized eyes and could not scale walls..but I disgress
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I don't want to be rude, but Mordor is conceptually and gameplay-wise close to perfect (the only """flaw""" I can see is the absence of Umbar in the faction). Why on earth would you want to change anything? The only changes Mordor need are balance changes.
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I have to go with Abrigabbro here, Mordor's fine at the moment (except Umbar indeed)
All this up can very well be moved to Misty Mountains, really, it wouldn't hurt anybody and keep things balanced, without overpopulating Mordor, which is already seriously crowded.
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Okay so i have recieved a lot of constructive feedback on my previous concept. I even decided to change the concept a lot to fit the feedback. So thanks for the feedback, you all had lots of good points on the matter!:)
But now i decided to make a plan B, an idea to integrate the material from my previous thread without having two subfactions and without interfering with the gameplay Mordor has to offer at the moment.
But now back to the concept.
Mordor concept, plan B
So here i have described what would change, its mostly visual effects but also new upgrades for units, improving them and i think this would add just so much more to the gameplay of mordor.
Citadel
Gothmog is removed from the citadel and instead recruited from the Minas Morgul fortress.
Troll cave
The mountain trolls can now choose between two armor upgrades:
1. The one they have now, which offers mace, sword, hammer
-this one would serve you as a shock troop, for when you wan to storm a breached gate, take down strong single targets or destroy buildings.
2. The armor they have in the hobbit, this one would only offer them the wooden mace.
-this is for when you use them in open battle. this armor is a lot heavier so they are much more resistant, but you lose the ability to specialize them.
Orc Pit
When overseers are placed behind your troops they change look.
-Behind regular orc troops they look the same
-Behind Minas Morgul orcs they look like Minas Morgul orcs
-Behind Dol Guldur orcs they look like the guy in front of Azogs army as they marched
Minas Morgul
-Gothmog is now recruited from Minas Morgul
Dol Guldur
-The Defiler is now a leader hero in Dol Guldur
-Dol Guldur orcs get a visual rework
-Mainly concerning, helmets, weapons and armor on their backs
-And new animation instead of the regular orc animation
The Defiler
-level 2 Mount up
-level 4 Leadership (passive)
-level 6 "General of Sauron" (passive) - gives The Defiler the armor and weapons he deserves, he gains alot more armor and damage, and his auto attacks knock down enemies in a small area in front of him (this is the armor he wore in the movie and weapons)
-level 8 "Commander of legions" The Defiler can give units in a medium sized area experience
-level 10 "Come forth my armies" All orcs get a large increase in movement speed and damage as The Defilers battle horns are used
-And just to make it clear, The Defiler role isnt removed from MM, its only the name and the design.
Heres another design the role could have : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqASlj09NEQ And he could be renamed Gundabad wargchieftain nameless like the others.
Images and videos:
Dol Guldur trolls:
http://r58.imgup.net/Trolls9240.png
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHHrPA80j7E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aTPiShcm78 1:38 This is the guy with the short swords on each hand i was talking about.
Dol Guldur orcs:
http://media.moddb.com/images/members/1/874/873509/ORC13.jpg The one in the front could be a nice design for the banner carrier
https://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/v3/media/galerie/hobbit001/dos_trailer2/dos39-cb210126.jpg
I like the design on the armor on their backs in this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THu4gwA2GQA at 0:25 Also that is a great war chant for the orcs!
Come forth my armies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW-IgJHM3cY Also in this clip we can see the orcs have two different kinds of shields, i think the swordsman troop should have both shields at random.
And some ideas that were left out that i liked, but that could be for Miasty Mountains instead:
-Were worms
-Siege trolls (could also be for Mordor in some way)
-Troll catapults, the one Spacetyrant posted, actually look pretty cool
And one more thing, it would be really cool to include spells in each fortress. In both the hobbit and lotr each fortress had spells typical for each fortress.
-Dol Guldur had the spell of concealment, this would be pretty cool to have in the game, the enemy has no visual on a medium sized area around the fortress so you can prepare an army and unsuspected attacks from there.
-Minas Morgul had the green beam going into the sky, it was a form of communication. At the same time there was a red beam in Mordor. It was basically Sauron asking the Witchking "are you ready?" and the with king replying "yes" and then the army started marching
But this could be some kind of boost for the orcs, so they have increased movement speed for a long time, to symbolize that they have just been sent out to march for war.
Azog, I sincerely agree with the two comments above, as I can't really think about any way Mordor could be changed/improved beside balance or minor elements.
Said that, you are still obviously free to express your own suggestions, unless an opposite statement of the Edain Team.
Just, two threads for a general and in development topic are too much, in my opinion.
I will merge everything with the previous thread, to avoid what could become an unnecessary fragmentation of ideas.
--- MERGED ---
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i see Mordor has very much taypes of units and it musnt get more so i am against giving Mordor Gundabad's armored trolls and the siege trolls and dont forget the siege trolls have goblines on there backs so they must be added to MM not Mordor :-| , and I see it really uncomfortable that Azog (The Defiler) is in MM Faction and his army in Mordor Faction , I think dul guldor must be removed from Mordor, Mordor really have so MUCH units and its the most easy Faction to win with.
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Since when is Dol Guldur """Azog's army""" ? Plus, Azog won't even be in the game.
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Since when is Dol Guldur """Azog's army""" ? Plus, Azog won't even be in the game.
since when ? really? did you watch the movies adrigabbro ? becouse its clearly that i am talking about the 3rd one "BotFA" and not the books as the edain team is using BotFA Azog's Soldiers's look in the game , and you can see in my comment this "(The Defiler)"right?
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Gentlemen, there is no need of getting angry or something closed to this feeling when you discuss about anything related to this forum.
Resentment is simply not constructive and counterproductive.
I really believe that things can most of the times be explained in fair terms :)
Witch-king of Angmar, what does 'removing Dol Guldur from Mordor' exactly mean?
That fortress is a direct property/dominion of Sauron; initially as his shelter, later as Mordor's outpost in Mirkwood.
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They used the design from the movie, yes, but that's it. The team usually sticks to the books, NOT the movies, when they contradict each other, as it is the case here. Dol Guldur during the War Of The Ring is a base of Sauron's, so it belongs to Mordor.
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They used the design from the movie, yes, but that's it. The team usually sticks to the books, NOT the movies, when they contradict each other, as it is the case here. Dol Guldur during the War Of The Ring is a base of Sauron's, so it belongs to Mordor.
ofc dul guldor blongs to Mordor , I am talking about the army that came from MM to dul guldor to make the Alliance with the necromancer then attacked the mountains ofc this info is only in the movies and its not in the book i know edain team stick to the book but they are using the design of the soldiers that what make it uncomfortable for me (my opinion).
Witch-king of Angmar, what does 'removing Dol Guldur from Mordor' exactly mean?
That fortress is a direct property/dominion of Sauron; initially as his shelter, later as Mordor's outpost in Mirkwood.
you are right , i agree with this , dul guldor and all the spider ,castillians(right word?) and khamul must stay in mordor but i think they must change the design of the soldiers to a new one , and get the current design to MM to join The defiler .
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No. The armor those orcs are wearing are forged in Dol Guldur. Therefore it doesnt matter who wears that armor, be it orc from Gundabad or Orc from Mordor, that is Dol Guldurs armor.
Its Castellans btw, Castillians are a former spanish kingdom in the middle ages :P.
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you are right , i agree with this , dul guldor and all the spider ,castillians(right word?) and khamul must stay in mordor but i think they must change the design of the soldiers to a new one , and get the current design to MM to join The defiler .
Im completely fine with the design of the Dol Guldur orcs right now. I don't exactly get why you want them to change to something different. I think it would be cool to have the Dol Guldur orcs be a summon for the Defiler or maybe a Spellbook power for the MM, but they shouldn't be the basic infantry for MM.
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Its Castellans btw, Castillians are a former spanish kingdom in the middle ages :P.
lol
Im completely fine with the design of the Dol Guldur orcs right now. I don't exactly get why you want them to change to something different. I think it would be cool to have the Dol Guldur orcs be a summon for the Defiler or maybe a Spellbook power for the MM, but they shouldn't be the basic infantry for MM.
yea maybe not a basic infantry , it should be a spellbook or something like that , the problem is when i play as Mordor i see them not fitting in my army , some troops from BotFA movie are joining morgul orcs , Grond , fellBeasts etc..., its really weird .
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Mordor has so many different types of orcs (and other units) to offer. If you are uncomfortable with the Dol Guldur orcs, simply don't use them.
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Plus, Azog won't even be in the game.
Just to clear this point up: Yes, the Defiler is of course basically the Hobbit Azog. However, due to him not being alive during the Hobbit storyline, Edain has decided to only name him the Defiler, so he is neither really Azog nor the leader of the Misty Mountains (why Tolkien, why, do both Minas Morgul and Misty Mountains have the abbreviation "MM" in english? [uglybunti]). The Defiler is simply Misty Mountains hero killer and kept with Gundabad's design (meaning the orc design from the first Hobbit movie). It's kind of a mess because it makes for a big confusion concerning DG and Misty Mountains, but that's the Edain canon.
So basically, the orc army in BotFA uses Mordor's DG design (eventhough those are orcs from the Misty Mountains as Mordor / Sauron had no influence over the BotFA), Bolg is the leader of the orcs being the uniter during the BotFA, Azog is only included by his looks (and not his battle armor, because that would make him the commander he is not), but named "The Defiler" (making Bolg the only orc with a true name which is intentional) and this is basically the point where I lost track. xD
And I rightfully blame PJ for this eventhough I won't go in detail about this...
And the DG orcs shouldn't be at all included for the Misty Mountains because at no point in history DG really supported them. Therefore there isn't the slightest connection. Also I don't think this design is even fitting for the Misty Mountains because Edain has interpreted as a very wild faction without an organized / standardized army. Therefore this industrial armor is completely inept for the Misty Mountains.
Also, isn't that one of the greatest things about Mordor? That you actually control evil from all over Middle-Earth, for Mordor being the true hatchery of evil by the time of the WotR? Personally this is a reason why I like the DG-armor for Mordor because of it being different. And DG is one of the places you can actually expand creatively (see castellans) because it isn't really shown in the movie.
Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
PS: BTW, Wikipedia says "castellan" (or at least the german "Kastellan", the team used) is the overseer of an estate.
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Just to clear it up to the Germans here, as far as I know in English one says Misty Mountains as MM, however for Minas Morgul we just simply say Morgul.
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so basically edain team are using movies's designs but they stick to the books thats why Azog lost his name and his army , i think this is a wrong treatment to Azog but I think I will just wait for MM to come out , so I can see how the team think MM should be...
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Well, I have also seen MM for Minas Morgul quite often in english forums. :P
And no, this is no wrong treatment for Azog. Azog is dead and we let the dead stay in piece and don't force them to continue their work, as some other guys do. :P We just give them their well deserved peace and retirement.^^
Also the troups are Dol Guldur troups in the movies - and Azog in the movie wasn't the boss of Dol Guldur, so it wasn't really Azog's army, but Sauron's army, which he gave to Azog.
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And no, this is no wrong treatment for Azog. Azog is dead and we let the dead stay in piece and don't force them to continue their work, as some other guys do. :P We just give them their well deserved peace and retirement.^^
Also the troups are Dol Guldur troups in the movies - and Azog in the movie wasn't the boss of Dol Guldur, so it wasn't really Azog's army, but Sauron's army, which he gave to Azog.
i am talking about movie's Azog not the book one, the one in the book is dead and his design really sucks so i am really happy you left him , btw Sauron is the Leader of all Evil in the Third Age so i dont see this as a reason but as i said i will wait for your work guys .
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Azog was a great orc leader in the books, and even much greater in the movies. But because hes dead at this time, hes not included, but his movie design is. Im totally fine with this and made peace with it a while ago..:D
But this fact gives his movie design many opportunities without interfering with the lore.
I think The Defiler should stay the way he is now, as in the first two movie he was the main antagonist and fits the hero killer role perfectly.
His battle armor on the otherhand is unused, so i strongly suggest you read the concept again to see what i mean. Giving it to a new leaderhero for Mordor, so you can have a worthy leader of the Dol Guldur orcs.
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Giving it to a new leaderhero for Mordor, so you can have a worthy leader of the Dol Guldur orcs.
Well, following Edain's concepts, the Defiler is just a warg-leader of Gundabad and in no way a general of DG -there isn't even a connection at all. And since he lived during the Hobbit, there is no way he is still around during the WotR where Mordor is mainly set.
Also, I'd like to mention one point: Up to today, there are exactly two heroes outside of summons available for multiple factions -the Witchking and Gandalf. I think, I don't even have to mention how the Defiler looks compared to them, there is no single way he is close to being important, interesting or even lore-friedly enough to include him as a recruitable hero in multiple factions. --> Apart from that, even if we did so, it wouldn't make any sense at all because of the reasons above.
Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
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Giving it to a new leaderhero for Mordor, so you can have a worthy leader of the Dol Guldur orcs.
Well, following Edain's concepts, the Defiler is just a warg-leader of Gundabad and in no way a general of DG -there isn't even a connection at all. And since he lived during the Hobbit, there is no way he is still around during the WotR where Mordor is mainly set.
Also, I'd like to mention one point: Up to today, there are exactly two heroes outside of summons available for multiple factions -the Witchking and Gandalf. I think, I don't even have to mention how the Defiler looks compared to them, there is no single way he is close to being important, interesting or even lore-friedly enough to include him as a recruitable hero in multiple factions. --> Apart from that, even if we did so, it wouldn't make any sense at all because of the reasons above.
Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
dude , he said "a new leaderhero" means not azog or the defiler just a normal orc captain with movie's azog's armor and a helmet .
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Officially the leader of Dol Guldur was Khamul, after that the Necromancer left the fortress. And really the last thing Mordor needs is another hero [uglybunti].
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Firstly:
Officially the leader of Dol Guldur was Khamul, after that the Necromancer left the fortress. And really the last thing Mordor needs is another hero [uglybunti].
I couldn't agree more.
Secondly:
he said "a new leaderhero" means not azog or the defiler just a normal orc captain with movie's azog's armor and a helmet
Wait, what? Adding even another non-existing hero just for the sake of having someone, everyone will remember as plain Hobbit-Azog, in the game? Considering Fredius' point and common sense as no one needs this gameplaywise -what for? If this was truely meant that way, then (being wholeheartedly honest) this is one of the worst ideas I've seen in a while. Apart from that, my points still hold. Sorry, if this sounds rude (it probably will :().
Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
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Well you guys clearly didnt read the new concept..:D
And a little rude, but honest, the way it should be:)
But as stated in the concept the leader hero is a replacement for Gothmog. Not a new hero for gameplay, as you choose in the beginning if you want a Morgul themed faction or Dol Guldur themed. And as stated several time, he is not Azog, nor the Defiler from MM. So "Azog" is not in two different factions.
And the great thing about nameless heroes, is that they arent non canon. I mean there probably was some orc leader in Dol Guldur, yould be suprised how many leaders it takes to control an army for real.
The same way the Witch King is leader of Morgul and Gothmog is his General, it would be like with this guy and Khamul. Since neither Khamul or Witch king tends to have leadership abilities, heros like "Gothmog" or "The General of Dol Guldur" in the concept step in.
And as i stated in the beginning, i dont expect for this to happen anytime soon (or ever) but it would be nice to see in the game. So you dont have to worry;D
And please read the new concept before commenting.
There you will see it includes no new units for when you want to play the classical Morgul oriented Mordor. But when you want a more hobbit feel, this would be a pretty great concept without tons of work or change to the game as it is now.
And you say all of it is unecessary, sure it is if you just want to play the classical Morgul oriented Mordor, but if there was the ability to chose between also a Dol Guldur oriented Mordor, it would be the best way to include all the good hobbit designs without making alot of people unhappy, and it would certainly make all the botfa Dol Guldur army lovers really happy. And shut them up about the Hobbit evil army.. or atleast me:DD
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Azog, please, don't take this negatively, but if we didn't read your new concept, you also didn't understand properly our criticism :)
The main point that you are still missing, I guess, is that your proposal has no reasons at all to see light.
It basically consists of changing something for the sake of changing itself, basing everything on aesthetic purposes, or trying to implement at all costs a specific design.
This is arguably one of the weakest and most inconsistent ways to back what you believe is a good idea that has to be included in the game.
And, again, why should someone choose Minas Morgul or Dol Guldur with the exclusion of one of the two, when both the subfactions legitimately belong to Mordor (as a whole 'realm'/authority)?
These are conceptual and lore issues, not only aesthetic.
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Now when you use Saurons influence on the orc pit you unlock orc captains, which have the same effect as the overseers they are only stronger, but they have different designs based on which faction you choose
Definetly won't happen. The system for the orc overseers is already extremly huge system and that would mean to create about 20 new horde definitions. Also, orc overseers are already extremly powerfull, making units up to 4 times as strong.
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Yes but what if I want to play with both Dol Guldur and Morgul and Mordor at the same time :P? I read your concept, I don't agree with the sub-faction system because it would ruin the current concept of Mordor. Mordor is the head of all the sub-factions it controls, these are mainly Dol Guldur, Morgul and Cirith Ungol, with Rhun and Harad as it's vassals. The current concept of Mordors gameplay shows this perfectly, and imo it shouldn't be sacrificed just to give people either a Hobbit feeling or a Morgul feeling; why not both xD!
As for the unit designs, however, I completely agree with you. Dol Guldur orcs look a bit outdated compared to the other models inspired by the Hobbit movie. Probably because they were based on Games Workshops models, which for some reason don't look very much like the movie orcs :/.
I'd also love to see those trolls from the movie. Not to confuse them with the oversized trolls which some people hate (I'm looking at you Melkor Bauglir [uglybunti]!), but the ones with the clubs and the awesome helmets. I think it would be great to give the Mountain Trolls the option to have either the Morgul armor or the Dol Guldur armor, each having their own bonusses. On this I also agree with you.
The difference between Gothmog and your General of Dol Guldur is that Gothmog is a real named canonical hero, the General of Dol Guldur is not. Ofcourse every army has commanders, generals, officers and whatever to lead them, but the banner carriers are already like officers to me. Morguls banner carriers have a unique design compared to the orcs they lead; they are based on that orc with the skull and the orc with the white hair that says to Gothmog "the door won't give, it's too strong!". I believe the Dol Guldur banner carrier should also look unique compared to the orcs it leads. I would say give the banner carrier the helmet of the officer that leads Azogs army in the movies (the one with the centurion helmet).
Things like this fleshes the Dol Guldur part of Mordor a lot more imo, and it doesn't sacrifice the concept of being able to play with Mordor and all it's subfactions at once. What do you guys think of this :P?
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Die walkure i do see the point, its just the way i see the game, its a piece of art and its the unit design that add feeling to the game and not necessarily only their purpose.
But i guess youre right.
But anyways Fredius i support your idea, it makes more sense :)
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I know, Azog, that aesthetic purposes are generally and often the core of many proposals and desires for changes.
But, as far as my brief experience in this forum tells me, people are likely to have the most diverse type of proposals – often one opposing the other – given the very nature of aesthetic suggestions, according to our personal views.
Therefore, it's not surprising that the majority of them doesn't manage to be into the game, because, as I wrote, we are talking about changes for the sake of changes themselves.
This is what I wanted to tell you :)
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Another option would be an official submod for Edain, BOTFA submod.
If there would be people willing to work for it. Where all the epic non canon stuff from the movies could be implemented.
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Another option would be an official submod for Edain, BOTFA submod.
If there would be people willing to work for it. Where all the epic non canon stuff from the movies could be implemented.
You are more than legitimate to start a project of this kind if you are willing to :)
You necessarily need the permission of the developers (the Edain Team, in this case) to use their own content for your project.
Then, if you get it, all your own or other people's suggestions will have to be part of a separate space in the Submod Section of MU.
This section is entirely focused on the Edain Mod, and it can't thus contain anything that concerns off-topic matters.
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Yea ofc with their permission!:D Thats why it would be an official sub mod for Edain.
But yea ill try to do something!
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Yea ofc with their permission!:D Thats why it would be an official sub mod for Edain.
I had imagined that, I was just explaining you the official 'praxis', in case it were needed; just like an automatic reminder ;)
Also, repeating things is always useful at an extent, if there are new people approaching to this forum.
You know, nothing should everytime be taken for granted; there is always someone who just 'forgets' about these rules and does as its will commands...
Besides, I have to ask you, what are you willing to do about this proposal? :)
If you are not interested anymore in it, it should just be closed.
Otherwise, we can try to find other adjustments or changes if you want to.
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Yea thats true!:)
And well i myself wont be able to do any modding, i dont have the skills or time to do it unfortunately. But i would gladly open a project for modders out there who could do something about it.
Meanwhile, i think this thread could be closed, id like to make a new short one with the idea Fredius posted, and that would be enough on this matter.
And you probably know who to contact to get the approval, if you could help with that?:)
And i didnt find any page for any submods?
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You could simply contact one of the Edain Team's members.
But, I would especially contact Ealendril, the Leader of the Edain Mod :)
Oh, yes, sorry.
The Submods Section is mainly a German section; you have to open also the German boards to make it be visible.
Anyway, this is the link of its general board.
http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/board,268.0.html
I will close the thread, as you wish.
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