Modding Union

[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] General Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: IgRAzm am 15. Aug 2021, 10:01

Titel: What if you could draw simple walls from Settlements?(+ thoughts about stuff)
Beitrag von: IgRAzm am 15. Aug 2021, 10:01

   Well, I might as well introduce myself in brief. I'm IgRAzm (or IgRA), an english-speaking player, with much experience in a number of RTS's. In fact, BFME1 was one of very first games I played! And I never really turned into a competitive player, despite trying out ladders in both SC2 and AOE2 (with the latter, I started on it pretty recently), watching tournaments and casts for those games a lot occasionally. Instead I have taken the balancing and game-designing aspects of most RTS games I played (of some other genres too, but not as much) with much passion, and thought of them as much or more than played them.
   In fact, I tend to treat the game-designing process the same as when artists search for perfection - it might very well be an unreachable goal, but every step on the road to improvement of a craft has purpose to it. The more one spends time improving the existing piece, the more it gets clearer what are core principles they should apply, as the other ones get sifted out.
   Can I say that I have ideas? That of course depends. Sometimes I have so many, but, you know, only a few actually reach conscious thought, and far from all of them are good enough even then, and on top of it there's not always a mood for thinking things over.
  Well, I guess there was a level of pretentiousness in my previous words, but I can only ask the reader to trust that I'm not wasting their time, as that all lead to my thoughts about Edain.
   In Short, it's Amazing.
   In not so short, it is quite a gem in the modding scene in so many ways. I have played every faction and subfaction multiple times over the few weeks after discovering it, but there's still a lot to get to. So many gameplay elements are so polished and lead to one another, which doesn't always come in tandem with the good visual parts, and in that regard also, this mod doesn't look a mod, it seems like a full modern studio-class game. I'm so looking forward to Misty Mountains, it seems like one of the most unique and detailed factions I've seen in any RTS.
   To be honest, I haven't played BFME for many years, and stumbled upon Edain almost by chance. But it did reignite my long forgotten interest for the buildplot system of the first install, and learning of it's alignment on multiplayer I was filled with much promise regarding that, while slightly getting let down by the fact that the game's AI couldn't be improved very far.
   Was the multiplayer a letdown for me? That would be far from the truth, yet...not completely false. Despite all the qualities of the mod, I don't think the multiplayer gameplay actually gets executed in a way that would do the justice to all the many developed aspects of the mod. Not a large percentage of matches had appearance of a competition with prolonged uncertainty of winner and many options for the catching up player to recover and turn the game. Many still were good, and interesting, and much more than can be expected of a mod with players taking it competitively. With the tournament in place, I do hope for great, preferably prolonged games (though I can't seem to make the replays for them work sometimes..) to come, and most likely there will be, but I can't help but think how incredibly replayable it would be if such games were a commonality.
   Now, I think I got to show my circumstances clear enough, so for whoever who read this far without looking at suggestion, you better do it! It is shorter.  ;)
Titel: Re: What if you could draw simple walls from Settlements?(+ thoughts about stuff)
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 18. Aug 2021, 16:55
The idea is super interesting and opens up lots of fascinating opportunities, but I don't think it's feasible or fitting in your iteration. Too many settlement buildings shouldn't have walls in any form attached to them, for various reasons: Being a somewhat stealthy refuge like Gondor's Ranger Tents; fundamentally non-military buildings like the Dwarves' Travel Camp; or special recruitment buildings like the Entmoot, just to name a few. It might be an interesting addition as a special ability of only a few buildings where it both fits aesthetically and from a gameplay standpoint though.
Titel: Re: What if you could draw simple walls from Settlements?(+ thoughts about stuff)
Beitrag von: IgRAzm am 18. Aug 2021, 18:32
Actually you're right. In many instances it really would look off. I think I had half a mind to specify something like that but I think I didn't get decided on which shouldn't work and then I forgot :). I guess that all factions have at least one or two fitting settlement buildings.
Titel: Re: What if you could draw simple walls from Settlements?(+ thoughts about stuff)
Beitrag von: Smeargollum am 19. Aug 2021, 14:52
After only reading the title your post I was rather sceptical but after thinking about the suggestion for a little while I became to like it. I too, like Elendil, think that the central idea behind your concept is very interesting and full of possibilities.

I think it would be best if every faction has only one settlement/”building on an outside buildplot” that can be expanded by a wall or palisade as you suggested. From a gameplay/balance perspective those walls could be used to buff generally less used buildings that could get more attractive that way as they get a new tactical dimension.

For Gondor I’d say the beacon would be best fitting, as it is a military building in which the troops are getting ready for the fight so it would make sense if they try to protect themselves by walls. It could also help keep the beacon safe against early
aggression before you have enough rider to get soldiers.

For Rohan the assembly point would be a good building to give some palisades. While the normal farm and the stud farm are just the houses of poor peasants the assembly point is build for military interaction. With protecting palisades, it can be even better to build it at strategic important points on the map. 

For Imladris I think a tiny wall that protects the Hobbitfarm would be fitting. The Hobbits are peaceful and not very aggressive people that just want to defend their home. In the German forum I also suggested to give the Hobbitfarm a passive ability that buffs the Dunedain defensively. I think those two things could work together quite well and make that settlement building to a defensive option at key points on the map.

For Lorien a wooden palisade build by the Beornings would fit well in my opinion. Here there is a similar reasoning as for the wall around the beacon by Gondor: it could be very helpful to be able to protect it better from early aggression before you can get any units out of it.

For dwarves I think it would be good to make the lumber mill upgradable with walls. This might seem a bit odd at first but since the lumber mill is very weak at the moment as the workers can get easily harassed and killed that would make a lot of sense gameplay wise. When the lumber mills would get protected by walls it might be worth it to build some of them at certain places on the map and dwarves would finally have an alternative to the mineshafts. The only problem I see with that though is, that it could make it harder for the workers to find fresh trees without running around the wall on a long journey with their short legs. So maybe it is possible to allow the workers to go through to palisade so that they can go cut down trees effectively but other units still can’t get through.

For Isengard it would be the same as their lumber mills are just as bad as the ones of dwarves.

For Mordor I could imagine a palisade for the slave farm in the same style it already got some (at least visually) on higher levels. That could also make that farm a bit better, as its discount is – at least in the multiplayer – a bit underwhelming.

For Angmar it would visually fit best to the orc farm. Such a wooden palisade would make it easier to defend the farm and get out the tribute carts safely.


Those walls would be buildable after researching an upgrade in the citadel that costs between 300-500 resources. In my opinion it would be good if you can get them really early as it might be important to protect some key structures with them. And since the walls themselves would probably also cost some money, it shouldn’t be too strong.

One concern I have is that I fear that, despite how interesting the idea behind little walls for settlements is, it won’t really work in practise with the old engine. Probably it will just mess up the path finding of the units and make it more annoying and frustrating to fight around those places but I guess we would have to see that in game.
Titel: Re: What if you could draw simple walls from Settlements?(+ thoughts about stuff)
Beitrag von: IgRAzm am 19. Aug 2021, 19:27
After only reading the title your post I was rather sceptical but after thinking about the suggestion for a little while I became to like it. I too, like Elendil, think that the central idea behind your concept is very interesting and full of possibilities.

Well, thank you, thank you. I am quite excited, now that it turns out that balance testers and experienced players seem to like my idea.

I think I would be happy if the idea was implemented in a way you described. Your argumentation makes a lot of sense. But, as I have gotten some ideas to add to it, I'll write them down too.

Well, I looked at all the settlement buildings of all implemented factions and I think it's possible to make two buildings per faction able to build walls. Actually I think there could be two types of walls per faction also.

What made me think that there should be two is the idea of both military and non-military buildings figuring in your post. And I think I will be going over them in the same order.


Those walls would be buildable after researching an upgrade in the citadel that costs between 300-500 resources. In my opinion it would be good if you can get them really early as it might be important to protect some key structures with them. And since the walls themselves would probably also cost some money, it shouldn’t be too strong.

One concern I have is that I fear that, despite how interesting the idea behind little walls for settlements is, it won’t really work in practise with the old engine. Probably it will just mess up the path finding of the units and make it more annoying and frustrating to fight around those places but I guess we would have to see that in game.

Yea, I think I feel the same regarding these two points. Would suck if the walls are problematic to the pathing. My hope is that the original second installment did have buildable walls, it couldn't be too bad with them and they could turn there so theoretically they should be functional. But if small spaces can't be traversed well at all, I guess I can live without them.
Titel: Re: What if you could draw simple walls from Settlements?(+ thoughts about stuff)
Beitrag von: Helper01 am 4. Sep 2021, 02:03
I don't have much to say on this, but I definitely like the idea! I've had some thoughts like this floating around in my head for a while. It's good to see that other people think similarly!

Here's hoping this idea takes shape, man!