They are faster than cavalry of Rohan, how does that make any sense? No mountain goat is faster than a trained war horse, I'm sorry.
I agree about needing all 3 to counter a scout hero, but if the cost isn't reduced than you would be paying 450, while scout heroes only cost 150. That's why I would advocate reducing the cost to 50 or maybe 100, and increasing the cost to upgrade to a full battalion to balance it.
Careful Crag, just because nobody is discussing it now doesn't mean nobody will. This is the balance discussion thread, and that may come up in the future.
Good day,
Before I start a seperate thread about this, I wanted to gather some opinions here first. I wanted to talk about the Dragon Slayer of the Iron Hills and its current performance and implementation.
After having done a few quick direct tests in WB and in skirmish, I noticed a few things:
1. The single target damage of the Dragon Slayer's sword is gargantuan. I think it can tear down an average resource structure without upgrades in 4-5 hits. This is something no other hero (that I am aware of) can do, not even the dedicated anti-building ones. Do you think the performance of the Dragon Slayer is currently justified? Is he too strong? Too weak? Would love to hear a bit about this.
2. So far, most Dragons in the past BFME renditions have been flying units, apart from that old Isengard dragon PP spell if I recall correctly. How exactly will a full melee Dragon Slayer actually slay a flying dragon in the future? Is there any information about this? This one is a little off-topic perhaps, but I wanted to put it out there anyway.
3. You can build multiple Dragon Slayers which if all equipped with a sword, can take down a camp in a short amount of time. On top of that, he isn't expensive, only 600. The Hunters are more expensive than a conceptually designed hero (unit). Although they are of course weaker than true heroes, but their single sword damage is maybe just as high as the Witch King's Level 10 ability, perhaps even more with Forged Blades. So, a ''hero'' you can get multiple times sounds rather strange. Any thoughts?
4. What if we turned the Dragon Slayer into a real, full-fledged hero, specifically designed to deal with monsters, not just through sheer damage, but also via abilities? He would be similar to a CAH created hero. Would there be any animo for this?
I look forward to hearing your opinions!
Kind regards.
all armies should have equal chances at winning in all stages of a game/match, incorporating their own unique strengths and weaknesses.I'm sorry but I don't exactly agree with you. I mean, of course every faction should have a chance of winning in all stages, but the very identity of a faction should be a fair enough argument of why some factions have to be stronger or weaker in some stages. For example Isengard is the "industry" faction: it takes some time to get going but once the wheels are definitely turning, you train Uruks on a production line. Therefore you can't expect to be as strong as Gondor or Rohan early in the game.
I think its interesting that you want 1 faction to remain overpowered and want to nerf another
Well, i use them mainly for their special ability. Too bad that they suffer the same "bug" as rohan's : no auto attack sometimes, so some improvements would be a good idea. :)
I'm surprised that this hasn't been brought up yet, but the Iron Hills Ram Riders are ridiculously strong when paired with Narin, being able to kill pretty much any unit, including Pikes, with ease. They don't take much trample revenge damage, they do incredible damage in melee combat, and they take so much damage to kill. I know they are supposed to be strong because there are only allowed to be 3 of them, but they are near impossible to kill for how early you can get them. In my opinion they need some serious nerfs.
I'm surprised that this hasn't been brought up yet, but the Iron Hills Ram Riders are ridiculously strong when paired with Narin, being able to kill pretty much any unit, including Pikes, with ease. They don't take much trample revenge damage, they do incredible damage in melee combat, and they take so much damage to kill. I know they are supposed to be strong because there are only allowed to be 3 of them, but they are near impossible to kill for how early you can get them. In my opinion they need some serious nerfs.
Balin does have a low amount of health, but I think that is balanced out by how strong every other hero is, and how many summon heroes you can get, and also being able to get Mithril.So all the heros i have mentioned before shouldnt have reduced health too? I mean Hwaldar is much more usefull than balin, as well Beregond. I think it is unfair Balin being that weak.
Anyways, I would like to make a proposal concerning the Mithril Shirts for heroes. Because of the limit on how many Dwarven Khazad-dum Veterans you can have at one time(which is 3), it is hard to get your heroes Mithril. To get all your heroes Mithril, you have to kill off some of your Veterans. Now this isn't much of a problem for Erebor, becuase they only have 4 heroes who can get Mithril (because Nori gets it automatically once he reaches level 10), but for Iron Hills with 5 heroes, and Ered Luin with 7 heroes, this is more of a problem. I don't think people should be sacrificing their heroic units to improve their heroes.
So my suggestion is that Veterans have a cooldown on their Mithril Shirt Ability. The cooldown will be extremely long (say 8 mins or so), but this means that you will not have to kill them to get more Mithril Shirts.
Now Ered Luin would still have to wait a long time to get all their heroes Mithril Shirts, so I have a suggestion for them. I think Bilbo should get his Mithril Shirt automatically once Thorin Oakenshield is recruited. Not only does this make sense in terms of lore (or at leas I'd assume so, it's shown in the Hobbit Movies and Mentioned in the Lord of the Rings movies), but it would make 1 less hero to give Mithril too. Bilbo is usually the last person you should give mithril too because the other heroes need it more, so this would make it easier for every hero to get Mithril.
I would like to hear opinion on these suggestions.
Greetings, Hamanathnath
Balin is very useful, probably one of the best supporters in the game if you can get him leveled, he makes your heros able to take on an entire army because of his runes that he can give out. Not to mention he can save your entire army from certain death with a teleport that has no limit to how far it can go plus he has a rebuild so I can understand why he has low stats because it evens out his usefulness
Well Draco, what I will say is this, I think both sides raise good points, but I also think you are a tiny bit biased.
what I personally do...Well that is your way to play, Balin is support so I think he should be recruited first to start get expirience and be usefull in later stages of the game.
Hello folks, I wanted to suggest something. I find that the Dwarven Stronghold summon is kind of underperforming as it is. Especially the catapults are kind of average and overpriced. I wanted to ask to slightly increase the damage of the catapults on the Fortress and as well as reduce the price of the purchasable catapults on the Fortress to the same level as the catapults you can buy on Fortress Defense Plots, so 1800-> 900-1000-1100ish.
Any thoughts?
Hello folks, I wanted to suggest something. I find that the Dwarven Stronghold summon is kind of underperforming as it is. Especially the catapults are kind of average and overpriced. I wanted to ask to slightly increase the damage of the catapults on the Fortress and as well as reduce the price of the purchasable catapults on the Fortress to the same level as the catapults you can buy on Fortress Defense Plots, so 1800-> 900-1000-1100ish.I even would say to reduce it to 500/600 per catapult, it is a lvl 10 summon but its cost is too high to its actual utility. I think catapults should be upgradeable or something like that, increased dmg to be a true siege power. Completely agree with you.
Any thoughts?
Or we could just put a cooldown on the mithril, make it take like 10 mins to recharge.
But it is not logic, they have this mithril after a travel it can reappear from out of nowhere :)
Are you guys sure you fixed the Ram Riders in 4.3.1?
They're still crushing everything! :D
Ram Riders have the same stats as Gondor Knights or Meduseld Knights, only they are limited to three and don't have an ability. They're not actually extraordinarily powerful.This is another case of stats not reflecting performance. Remember, you can't get the rams until you have Narin, who provides superior leaderships to the rams, with both his level 1 and 3 abilities, which allow you to get heroic-level performance out of the unit. If the rams aren't getting nerfed anymore than Narin definitely should.
I see that many people still argue about the strength of the Ram Riders. I found these unit pretty useful for flanking and straight on charge on enemy non spear units. Yes, they are strong now with the new update, but, their role is scout unit. So, to make the balance a bit challenging and better, could you make them 5 per unit plus the scout leader ?
This way they will still be powerful, limited to 3 and you will have to use them more wisely and thus keep their stats as they are.
In regards to Bard's and Brand's scouting abilities, I believe they are just an extra bonus. They become more important if you do not get the ravens though.I sort of understand, but it really is a waste of an ability. Ravens are easy to get and just outright better because of the debuff.
Murin's Battlecry already debuffs the armor of nearby enemies by 25% iirc.Im pretty sure it doesn't. I don't remember seeing that last time I used Murin, and the Edain Wikia also says it just applies fear. But I'm totally for something like an Armor debuff.
Well Dwarven Fortress was just recently buffed significantly by lowering the price of Catapults from 1800 to 700, so I don't think it needs to be buffed anymore.Is that so? I totally missed that, my bad! That's a proper buff, so I gotta check that tonight.
Oh about the earthquake, I think it is spot on at the moment. Yes it sucks to be hit by it, but that's how 10 PP spells work, they help you turn the engagement or seal the deal in some cases. Just make sure you get the 10 PP spell first :P.
However the power of the earthquake is so that it destroys most economics buildings inside the base often upgraded with (in my case) pantry upgrades at either 300, 600 or bothConcerning the power and use of the earthquake I think it is very good and useful but I also believe that it shouldn't be applied without vision of the area.
There is, however; one apparent issue with this. It lacks cohesion with the design of Lothlorien. I mean, they are supposed to be an archer superiority faction, so if the archers aren't bringing in the ''superiority'' then something is obviously wrong, no?Lorien is not just archers. At their core they are a high damage, low health faction with superior mobility and a stronger focus on archers to get the best use out of that. I very much like that in different matchups you need to use different strategies to gain an advantage. It just adds to the game when you need to adapt to the strengths and weaknesses of your opponents.
Btw am I the only one who doesn't like the new battlewagons and doesn't approve of their increased armor against pikes? I felt they were pretty much fine before, maybe an armor buff against swords but that would have been all I changed...
Fact is, that you cannot pull units out of a mineshaft while others are entering somewhere else. There is always about 3-4 sec in which you cannot klick on the units in the mineshafts, which adds a lot of touble with using mines quickly (on competstive niveau those seconds are crucial. )The key word here being ENTERING. I can quickly exit 3 guardians to stop you harassing without entering units in the mineshaft, so that has no relevance as far as I am concerned. Sure, you can run, but if your running then your not killing my mineshaft, which is what those guardians were there to prevent in the first place.
able to trample 1 full battalion of orcs or troop equivalent before slowing down.- totally disagree with that. As I said above, Battle Wagons already slow down a bit. Even retreating they get stucked a bit with enemy units.
I think perfecting the Battlewagon should be in one of the bigger updates, because obviously if we go with the designs given by Dain, it would take a lot of work. But I really like those designs.^This. I want to see new factions as a priority, although obviously I also participated with my own ideas for the reworked battlewagon, so naturally I want to see those too. Factions should take priority I think though.
I think perfecting the Battlewagon should be in one of the bigger updates, because obviously if we go with the designs given by Dain, it would take a lot of work. But I really like those designs.
Ditto, he's called Thorin Brokenshield for a reason. Although, his real strength comes from other heroes giving him leaderships, by himself he is managable. I agree their speed is a bit insane, should probably be as fast as Men, not Elves.
Overall Erebor actually sucks pretty bad right now, the only redeeming quality is the Axe Throwers, who can dominate early game, and obviously Thorin the 3rd who is insanely strong. Once ite gets to late game they fail against most other factions though. so overall they need buffs more than anything.
This really comes from all the armor leaderships, plus tower shields. Ditto nontheless, they are too tanky.
I think battlewagons are in a good spot, bordering on being too strong actually. They have practically no trample deceleration at all, and the barrels deal good damage too.
Well, since this only comes up with Ered Luin, I don't think they should get a speed buff, if anything Ered Luin should be a bit slower.
My overall point of Dwarves as a whole: They each have a single gameplay that is incredibly OP.- Agree with you.
ZitatMy overall point of Dwarves as a whole: They each have a single gameplay that is incredibly OP.- Agree with you.
Erebor definitely does not "suck pretty bad". If you look at all the agressive Buffs... just for example King Dain: +50 , +50 Attack! Insane for Edain. Axe Throwers and Ered Luin will most likely get a little nerf in 4.5.
Otherwise there has been long a long discussion in engl. forum about the role of the Dains: The Dain Dilemma (https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,33734.0.html)
We have to see, if changes will be made. I really hope because right now these extreme conditions are the overkill for dwarven gameplay.
The ravens don't do anythng right now, I think.
Othere than that I totally agree with Big F. Erebor and Ironhills are the weakest factions in 1v1 multiplayer. His suggestion concerning the IH sword sounds good to me, but I'm not sure if that will be enough to fix the faction.
I also think that battlewagons suffer a little too much damage from sword (e.g. Imlaswords), against weaker units like orcs or peasents they seem to be fine, but I haven't tested them that much so far.
best regardes,
Seleukos I.
As far as I know, the problem of Iron Hills and Erebor is mainly their speed. All dwarves are generally slow, but Ered Luin has faster units, and the swords also get a pretty strong Speedbuff.
Sure :)
The main problem of IH and Erebor is their slow movement speed. It has been the same in 4.4.1 as well, but back then you could use the ravens everywhere, so you could win every fight (more or less), since the debuff from the ravens was really stong.
Right now their normal sword units are not bad, but they aren't really better than for example Gondor Sword. But they are much slower.
Because of that (slow, but only average standart units) both factions (IH and Erebor) strggle to mantain mapcontrol in the eg-mg. And even in head on fights you can beat them quite well, depending on you faction.
And since they can't hold controll of the map early on they have less money available (mapcontrol isn't as important as it was in 4.4.1, but it's still important).
On top of that their slow speed makes them vulnerable to ranged Units, since you can kite them quite well. And when you combine some ranged units with cav it is even worse, since your pikes will get shot down and once they are dead, well, then you will loose everything, most likely^^
And because of your speed you can't retreat from a "bad fight", unless you stay near your mines all the time.
Of couse IH and Erebor are stong in the later game, with a stong army of heroes and upgraded elite units, but getting there isn't easy against a good player.
I hope this was the kind of answer you were looking for, if you have any further questions feel free to ask :)
best regardes,
Seleukos I.
ps.
http://edainranked.com/Statistics%20_Factions.html This is a Website designed by MaxPower and there are some nice statistic about Edain, based on 1v1. There isn't that much data yet (especially since IH and Erebor aren't played really often), but you can get a first Impression.
Edit: Looks like only true WK was quicker :D
Instantly destroying resource structures is actually not that great in 4.5 because you they are going to be rebuilt at their old level anyway. Even against an Angmar player with seven Mills, that's only an investment for 2800, which really isn't much for a 10 pp spell, especially considering it can be rebuild within 30 seconds or so. Army killers like the AotD, Huorns or even the avalance can do much more damage than that. Against Dwarves or Rohan you might even catch only four resource buildings for 1600, which really isn't worth it.