Modding Union

[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Isengard Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: DropItLikeItsDogg am 30. Aug 2015, 01:23

Titel: Saruman
Beitrag von: DropItLikeItsDogg am 30. Aug 2015, 01:23
Guys I have some ideas for Saruman I just want to share them with you.

-I think Saruman the White (before spell in spellbook) needs magic shield like Gandalf, if I did not saw wrong Saruman used magic shield while fighting with Ring Wraiths..

-Saruman was never a servant of Sauron like in the LOTR films, Saruman was always opponent of  Sauron for ring, so Saruman of Many Colors is not a puppet..

-What about a Saruman on good side? Maybe that magic shield is a good idea for this Saruman..

I know I have more things but I don't remember them now forgive me , I will add more when I remember  :D

What's your opinion about them?
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: AmosVogel am 30. Aug 2015, 02:09
Its really really hard to see Saruman in the good side, besides i know the mod happens since the Hobbit to LOTR, but the Team said he does not fit at any faction too many times before.

Drhouse once told me he wanted to make a submod for an Ancient Gondor, where i suggested Saruman instead of Gandalf - Arnor had Gandalf & Ancient Gondor Saruman.

I would also love to see Saruman having using that white bubble magic, but instead of Gandalf defensive technique, he would use it to attack. BUT the team already told me they will never add such a thing.

I also would like to see that descriptions changed!! it could say instead:

The white wizard betrayed his mission, and sought the power of the Ring for himself thus his ever-growing pride and arrogance made him unleash his anger against the free peoples of the world. Now theres no light within him but colors, many colors.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: DropItLikeItsDogg am 30. Aug 2015, 02:24
-You can add ''To War'' sound to Saruman when he attacks an enemy it could be cool

I'd love to see Saruman on good side with new spells really :D

That ; Arnor Gandalf & Ancient Gondor Saruman sounds great I think, someone should think about this  :)
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Hal9000 am 30. Aug 2015, 13:37
I agree with you about a magic shield, it should be a passive ability like Gandalf, but something different to be unique. I also think there is a problem between the two wizards, Gandalf the grey is the same level as Saruman the White, Gandalf the grey is even more powerful in some respects, his spells deals more damages (The ray of light is more useful than the fireball, also more useful than the lightning sword)
and of course Gandalf has the passive shield, Saruman also deserves a little passive spell that automatically activates, here are my ideas:
 -A bubble shield that repels enemies very close to Saruman (the bubble activates for 2 seconds and makes no damage )
- A bubble shield which accelerates auto-heal of Saruman for few seconds.
 and finally:
 - A bubble shield that provides an armor but different from gandalf, for example the bubble could protect saruman from knock back and projectiles (arrows, siege weapons). What do you think of my ideas? (sorry for my English)
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: AmosVogel am 30. Aug 2015, 18:07
I just doubt it can be implemented. It would be better if the balrogs animation is used, mini, white & with no damage at all. BUT remember, this power was for GOOD guy Saruman, not twisted weed smoker Saruman :)

Anyways, there is still hope!!
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 31. Aug 2015, 04:10
i would like to see a good saruman with different skills
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Walküre am 31. Aug 2015, 08:37
-I think Saruman the White (before spell in spellbook) needs magic shield like Gandalf, if I did not saw wrong Saruman used magic shield while fighting with Ring Wraiths..

-Saruman was never a servant of Sauron like in the LOTR films, Saruman was always opponent of  Sauron for ring, so Saruman of Many Colors is not a puppet..

-What about a Saruman on good side? Maybe that magic shield is a good idea for this Saruman..


Well, there are, I think, a few considerations to make  :)

The Saruman of the Edain Mod is not the one of the Hobbit timeline, when he was the authoritative Chief of the White Council.
The Saruman of the War of the Ring is wicked and corrupted, not only by Sauron, but mainly by his Greed and Ambitions of ruling the People of Middle Earth with his superior Power and Authority, something that the Istari were expressly ordered not to do by the Valar.
He thus FAILED his mission as an Istar.

It's true, Saruman was not completely a puppet of Sauron, as the LOTR trilogy has interpreted.
But he was nonetheless deceived by Sauron, and, as for many other characters in the Ages of Arda, ended up being unwillingly controlled by him.
Saruman truly believed to have deceived Sauron and acted in secret without him realising it; but you can't just deceive Sauron, who is rightly known as the 'Deceiver', the one who deceived the Elves (Celebrimbor) in the forging of the Rings of Power, and caused the Fall of Númenor (the most powerful Kingdom at that time) with his lies.
Sauron, in fact, helped consistently the 'corruptive process' of Saruman, and literally used him as a mere shield to destroy Rohan and the People of the Western Lands of Middle Earth, or just keep them at bay for a while, preparing in the meantime the final attack of Mordor against the World.

I don't really like the idea of a magical shield for Saruman as well.
A shield like that is really suitable for Gandalf, as he is constantly journeying across Middle Earth as a Lonely Wanderer, always confronting dark and foul creatures, and thus needing to directly defend himself.
Saruman, instead, although he theoretically could have created a magical shield, has stably established in Isengard for many, many years, and his Magic is much more 'extensive' and comprehensive than Gandalf's; Saruman used his powers to corrupt Isengard, create an industry, and artificially bring to life a new race of Orcs.
Saruman relies primarily on his Army and Servants for his own defence, especially after he put all his powers in the marring of his Land, gradually and constantly losing them.
It's a quite different kind of Magic, less 'direct' than Gandalf's, but much more inclusive  :)
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 31. Aug 2015, 10:21
+1
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 31. Aug 2015, 14:43
good point mate, but still id like to see a good saruman with different skills
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Walküre am 31. Aug 2015, 15:12
+1


I'm glad you appreciate it  :)

good point mate, but still id like to see a good saruman with different skills
 

We all like and wish for many things, but not everything is possible  ;)
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 31. Aug 2015, 15:27
maybe if the Ancient Gondor happens i would like to see that too or the white council spell
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 3. Sep 2015, 22:16
By the way, I think that it isn't shield but kind of enhanced attack against ringwraiths and structures.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 3. Sep 2015, 22:23
well that thing xD
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Sep 2015, 22:33
By the way, I think that it isn't shield but kind of enhanced attack against ringwraiths and structures.


I agree, they are likely to be magical attacks which cause shockwaves and knock back effects  ;)

Probably, also Galadriel's flick against the Guardian Orc (former Bolg) had similar effects, that were maybe cut for the theatrical version  8-)
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: DropItLikeItsDogg am 4. Sep 2015, 00:03
Nice idea  ;)
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Sep 2015, 02:09
I always thought that it wouldn't be so bad if Saruman had a more 'impressive' primary attack, with some flashing White Light involved, and a shockwave/knock back sound effect  :)
But, I'm not so sure that it will be possible.

Anyway, this is a real shockwave  ;)

Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: AmosVogel am 7. Sep 2015, 00:42
You know I'm starting to realize that Galadriel & Saruman are pretty similar, in one way or another:

-Both desired the one - One failed
-Both were tempted by Sauron - One failed
-Both established mental communication with Sauron, but she bloecked her thoughts, Saruman couldnt and got raped.
-Both dress in white (duh)
-[In movies] both use white shockwaves to defend or attack.
-In book Galadriel was powerful vs structures - In hobbit movies Sarumans shockwave seems to destroy small parts of a building.

I hope for Hero sub mod to hear our plea hahahaha  xD

Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 7. Sep 2015, 01:53
wea you have a point xD
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Sep 2015, 16:04

Yes, they are pretty similar yet different analogies  :D

Probably, the display of their powers in BOTFA symbolises the usage of Magic in its pure state, as both Galadriel and Saruman don't fight with swords, like Elrond and even Gandalf do for instance  :)

Anyway, I think that the analogy concerning the desire of the One Ring is a little bit more complicated.
Galadriel desires the One Ring as well, but not because of the One Ring itself, knowing and understanding very well the evil nature of Sauron and his treacherous snares, and being more than aware of the consequences of her hypothetical acceptance of this terrible artefact.
The Desire of Galadriel is the Ambition of Power itself and Authority in Middle Earth (never, though, with violence or malicious intentions), a constant trait of her Life since her Exile in Middle Earth from the Blessed Realm; and, in the Third Age, the One Ring obviously and exactly represents the only tool to achieve the absolute Power.

Saruman, instead, has always been obsessed with the One Ring itself, and with the lost Art of the creation of the Rings of Power.
He thoroughly desires it, and he's not completely aware of the possible consequences that might follow; that's why he was entranced easily and deceived by Sauron, being unwillingly used as a puppet, to keep at bay Rohan and the other Western People for some time, while Sauron was preparing his forces in Mordor (the interpretation of the LOTR trilogy shows Saruman as willingly controlled by Sauron, even though there are subtle hints about the 'secret desire' of the White Wizard).
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 21. Sep 2015, 16:07
when saruman is on the tower it should get a palantir picture like this one
and the wizard blast picture should be something like that
   and when
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Sep 2015, 02:54

I have to say that I'm more than satisfied with the current icon picture for the Wizard's Blast, even if it doesn't directly include the staff of Saruman.
The 'simple' open hand of Saruman symbolises, I think, the usage of direct and pure Magic (as it is the power itself) without other items needed.

Also, I really like the specific scene from which the picture was taken; the way Saruman 'snatches' the staff of Gandalf is pure magical superiority.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 22. Sep 2015, 07:45
you have a point mate
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: DropItLikeItsDogg am 23. Okt 2015, 13:25
He's using that energy shield in extended edition too, I think It's a really cool idea and Edain Team should add it to Saruman :)

Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 23. Okt 2015, 17:01
yea and in a better way if you ask me
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Okt 2015, 18:07

I really liked the extended scenes about Dol Guldur, and, especially, the very few moments involving Saruman  :)

But, as also others have already written, I highly doubt that those attacks are really a sort of Magical Shield as the one that Gandalf displayed both against the Balrog and Sauron.
I regard them more as magical attacks that have also a 'defensive' outcome via their knock back effect when an enemy is near, activating thus a sort of sudden Barrier.

A similar thing concerning Galadriel's destructive blast, that she used both to defend herself and take down that Orc (the blast widens itself from Galadriel as a magical sphere/aura)  8-)
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: DropItLikeItsDogg am 23. Okt 2015, 18:37
Yeah you're right
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Hal9000 am 27. Okt 2015, 17:12
Let me add something about Saruman in the current version, he has always been a mass slayer, everybody know that but he was also useful  against buildings with his thunderbolt at level 10 which inflicted important damages to structures, but strangely it is not the case in 4.0. It would be great if the team could increase the damages of that spell against structures, especially as Isengard doesn't have structure destroyer heroes.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 27. Okt 2015, 18:42
While that certainly was the case in vanilla BFME, in Edain, Isengard has arguably the best siege in the game. They can decrease costs of their engines too and I haven't yet mentioned their abilities. I doubt they need more power in siege.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Okt 2015, 18:45
agree
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Hal9000 am 28. Okt 2015, 11:52
I understand that, but then what is the advantage of his Thunderbolt? The blast by exemple is useful against troops in close combat, the fireball has the same utility but with a long range but the lightning doesn't bring anything new, it is a useful spell to kill armies, it deal a little bit more damages but in a small radius. I don't think it would be exaggerated to give additional damage to this spell, it remains a level 10 power with a long time to recharge. Gandalf can kill such huge armies with his word of power, but the damage is low, Saruman should make big damages in a small radius against all (building, heroes, units) after all lightnings can burn and destroy houses ... It will not make saruman a structure destroyer, the purpose is just to give an additional role to that power. (sorry for my english)
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 28. Okt 2015, 12:56
This is unfortunately not the case. Gandalf's Word of Power only insta-kills unupgraded regular infantry, that's one of the reasons why Edain is currently testing 20% less health on units. Furthermore, there might not be a seemingly direct advantage with the Thunderbolt over the Fireball, but you shouldn't forget that Saruman gets all these abilities together and that makes him perhaps one of the strongest mass slayers in the game since they do not share cooldown and they all add up in the long run.

However, I personally wouldn't mind making the Thunderbolt a bit more powerful or let it have more range. By the time you actually see the Thunderbolt, it has often already lost its impact.

We should wait to see what the team says about this.

Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Mr.Todd am 11. Mär 2018, 17:47
Hello, I have some suggestions about Saruman's latest ability.
As you may know, his final ability, "Thunderbolt" is far less powerful than Gandalf's Word of Power" ability. The lightning spell is very powerful but has a small radius and is not worthy of a level 10.
I propose to improve it slightly in different ways:

Heroes struck by the spell lose -25 armor for 30 sec, the surviving units lose -50 armor for 30 seconds. The spell could also be more usefull against structures: the hitten building loses -25 armor for 30 seconds. These are minor changes but I think this spell is too weak at the moment.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 11. Mär 2018, 19:43
While it may not have the gigantic radius of Gandalf's Word of Power, Saruman's Thunderbolt does a lot more damage. And by a lot, I actually mean a lot - it is four times as powerful(!) without a dropoff, meaning that you oneshot pretty much everything you hit, it does huge damage even to heroes. You can also cast it from range so your enemy can't anticipate it and split his units accordingly. I'd say it's in a pretty good spot right now.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Mr.Todd am 11. Mär 2018, 21:18
Gandalf's word of power is much more powerful for several reasons: It can kill dozens of units, it can hurt flying units, the spell is practically impossible to dodge.
In addition the spell dammage will be increased further in the next patch, + 100 magic damage for Gandalf the White if I remember correctly.
Saruman won't have any spells bonuses in the next version. The lightning spell is actually very powerful but this huge amount of dammage is not necessary to kill basic soldiers. It can be useful against heroic units but not really against heroes, only very weaks heroes with light armor such Legolas, Beregrond or Faramir will suffer big damages but tanks heroes like Dain or Boromir won't suffer so much.

It is sad because at the moment Gandalf the Grey is more stronger than Saruman the White, to be honest Word of Power should be only available for Gandalf the White, it would be more balanced IMO.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 11. Mär 2018, 22:18
I never said Thunderbolt was stronger than the Word of Power, I just said it was different. The huge damage may not be necessary for basic soldiers, but if you're fighting upgraded dwarves, elite units, Imladris soldiers, Uruks, ... And if you think it's not useful against heroes, I suggest you take a closer look at it again - nearly oneshotting Galadriel is quite nice if you ask me.

Comparing two different abilities from different heroes from different factions is not a good idea for balancing heroes anyway, because it completely ignores the context of the heroes' faction and the heroes themselves as well. What if I said Saruman's Wizard Blast was stronger than Galadriels stun at level one? Is that unfair to you as well?
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Walküre am 11. Mär 2018, 22:25
Gandalf's word of power is much more powerful for several reasons: It can kill dozens of units, it can hurt flying units, the spell is practically impossible to dodge.
In addition the spell dammage will be increased further in the next patch, + 100 magic damage for Gandalf the White if I remember correctly.
Saruman won't have any spells bonuses in the next version. The lightning spell is actually very powerful but this huge amount of dammage is not necessary to kill basic soldiers. It can be useful against heroic units but not really against heroes, only very weaks heroes with light armor such Legolas, Beregrond or Faramir will suffer big damages but tanks heroes like Dain or Boromir won't suffer so much.

Saruman does have a spell centred on him.

Zitat
Saruman of Many Colours: Saruman of Many Colours is a puppet of Sauron. Permanently gains +50% magic damage, -25% cool-down on all skills and +1000 life points.

Besides, I quite see the reason of your proposal. And, even though Saruman is not at all meant to be a mass-slayer hero, the storm is his ultimate ability and the final display of power of the White Wizard, concerning meteorological phenomena (the mightiest type of magic in Tolkien's writings). Thus, were the lightning storm to be enhanced, I would not have anything against it. Apart from gameplay, this is what my heart tells me.

As for Gandalf the Grey: I don't think that Word of Power could ever be done away, in any way. It is the wizard's most iconic ability from BFME1 and the feature itself was fashioned on the legendary Moria sequence.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 11. Mär 2018, 22:52
On the Word of Power issue, I agree with Walk. The Word of Power is very much based on the Moria sequence, and at that time Gandalf was Gandalf the Grey, so it would be strange to only get it as Gandalf The White. Furthermore, you'll probably get the Gandalf The White power before Gandalf is level 10, so I don't find it an issue on itself.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 12. Mär 2018, 17:51
Bear in mind that, while Gandalf and Saruman are the same price, Isengard has a much better economy than Gondor and so would be able to get Saruman earlier in the game. Also, while Gandalf has Shadowfax and his Bubble Shield, Saruman can cast all his spells from a safe distance with the Wizard's Tower and also has an AOE and knockback for his regular attack (Gandalf can only hit one enemy at a time IIRC).
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Mr.Todd am 12. Mär 2018, 21:34
I don't want to insist and I understand your points of view but still, imo, word of power is much more powerful in the game than in the film. In the film it is just the movement of the staff which is similar, there is just a light and not a shock wave that destroys an entire area.
So why not propose a smaller version of the word of power for gandalf the grey, with a smaller radius? Regarding Saruman I agree, he is actually easier to buy but remains weakers than Gandalf. And the wizard tower is a nightmare to use, fireball and wizard blast are bugged and inaccurate. IMO he is more usefful on the ground.
Yes he has an area of damage but can't kill 2 enemies at the same time, he hits more slowly than Gandalf. Spells can be cast from afar but Gandalf too, his istari light is even better than the fireball. And Gandalf even has the shield bubble.
 I think if word of power had a lower radius (only for G.the grey) or if Saruman's passive spell has +100 damage on magic attacks then it would be more balanced between Saruman an Gandalf.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Dain@ am 24. Mär 2018, 13:29
Hello ! In fact, Saruman is an old man and one of the powerful characters of Middle Earth, he looks rather weak. But what is the reason? After all, his ores of abilities are very good at first sight. And the answer is: Yes! but only need to finish them before the end. Here are a couple of examples and suggestions:
1) Fireball - it can be remade for attack on a single target (for example against heroes). Saruman is catastrophically very weak against the heroes because he has very weak armor, but that's the way it should be, (he's not a soldier), if you change the fireball to defeat a lone target (and increase a little damage), Saruman will get a chance to confront the heroes.
2) As for the lightning, this is done justly! which indicates its weakness. But ! Here the problem is not the damage (And it's really big!) How much in the problem of its implementation! Imagine that you want to hit a strong single target (hero, heroic detachment or super-armor gnome squad), you choose an area and want to destroy this goal, but you do not succeed for one reason: enemies move and you have a fixed area and even with insane small area. But not everything is so bad and the way out of the situation is very simple: You can make the realization of this ability different: the damage and the area of ​​defeat remain the same, but now you just choose the target and the lightning will hit it regardless of its movement, that's the solution to this problem.
3) If Gаndalf has a magic shield (and most point to the fact that he has it from BFME 2), then why is he not at Saruman because he was at level 10, he too was ???. The solution: when the ability from the book of spells "Saruman of many colors" is revealed, Saruman also receives a magical shield (how often he will be activated this is already a matter of balance)
And in the end, just a remark: Saruman is known in Middle-earth as a character who owns an exclusive weapon - the power of speech and oratorists, through which he performed miracles (stupefying, doubting and quarreling, convincing, leading into despair, strengthening his spirit and will and many other joys for mental rape of the enemy), but for some reason the Sauron's Mouth has more opportunities for this kind of action.
So if you take into account these proposals, then you can with minimal effort and without changing his current abilities to achieve his wallow power, which befits the head of the Istaris!
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 24. Mär 2018, 19:41
These are interesting suggestions especially the lightning one. One thing I've noticed about the Lightning ability recently is that it deals massive damage where the lightning hits, but all units in a radius around that area are knocked down (which could be just as dangerous in the right hands).

Regarding the Fireball ability, I think the issue is that Saruman is currently a mass slayer, unit interferer (with his Wormtongue ability) and a unit supported (with his Experience power). Giving him a hero killer ability might give him too many roles (which can lead to Brokenshield territory). Someone better at balancing might be able to confirm or deny that properly though.

Gandalf has the Shield Bubble because it is an iconic part of the Bridge of Khazad Dum scene. He would've needed a defensive ability a lot more since he spends his time wandering Middle Earth and encountering the various dangers. Saruman doesn't really have any similar abilities in the books or films. The closest would be his attacks at Dol Guldur in the Hobbit Trilogy which can be represented by his AOE.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 23. Jan 2019, 14:08
Saruman spellbook spell costs 6 points:

Zitat
Saruman of Many Colours: Saruman of Many Colours is a puppet of Sauron. Permanently gains +50% magic damage, -25% cooldown on all skills and +1000 lifepoints.

Gandalf the White only 4 points and additionaly provides +50% greater bonus to Magic attacks in comparison with Saruman:

Zitat
Gandalf now becomes Gandalf the White and gains 100% bonus on magic attacks, -25% on recharge time for his spells and +1000 life points.

It's pretty unfair.  8-|

I've reworked spells in order to more fit to their characters, still be balanced and yet unique ... :)

Both now cost 5 points:

Zitat
Saruman of Many Colours is a puppet of Sauron. Permanently gains +100% magic damage, -50% cooldown on all skills and +500 lifepoints.

I've strengthened maggic attack and decreased cooldown of his skills, to make sure that he is formidable and skilful wizard, but he only gains +500 lifepoints (half in comparison with Gandalf, because Saruman isn't known, resilient fighter like his Gondor's counterpart)

Zitat
Gandalf now becomes Gandalf the White and gains 100% bonus on magic attacks, -25% on recharge time for his spells and +1000 life points.

It's the same.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 23. Jan 2019, 14:51
Gandalf has already gone up to five spellpoints. The values in our announcements are pretty much never final and might always be adjusted during playtesting^^

I don't know where you got the six points for Saruman though, it clearly says five points in the announcement. And that hasn't changed.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 23. Jan 2019, 15:01
Gandalf has already gone up to five spellpoints.

Great to hear! But I would little change bonuses for Saruman, too. Gandalf still has better upgrade.

The values in our announcements are pretty much never final and might always be adjusted during playtesting^^

I know.  xD

I don't know where you got the six points for Saruman though, it clearly says five points in the announcement. And that hasn't changed.

Definitely, my mistake, probably I've overlooked it or mistaken with different spell:

(https://modding-union.com/edainimg/ig3_1493493945.jpg)
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: AmosVogel am 13. Feb 2019, 17:09
Dear God, I've arrived too late to the thread, i hope not too late discuss even further this topic.

Yesterday i was playing with Imladris, and the moment Elrond achieved his 'Ancient equipment' thus he inflicts area-of-effect damage, i thought the following for dear Saruman:

This is the current description for the many colored wizard:

Saruman of Many Colours: Saruman of Many Colours is a puppet of Sauron. Permanently gains +50% magic damage, -25% cooldown on all skills and +1000 lifepoints

I think it's just a buff, no more. Only Gandalf the White should recieve free bonuses due to his ordeal; Saruman did had a buff, without any doubt, nonetheless at a price: he broke the light, as Gandlaf said "And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom"; thus Saruman may said about white pages being overwritten so he did gain a buff.

So, what i propose is to give Saruman an area-of-effect damage, but once Saruman of many Colors is purchased, he looses  it, and can only perform his current attack.

This should be a subtle but most interesting and unique concept for Saruman, so i dare to rewrite the description and quote dear Tiberius:

 Saruman of Many Colours: Saruman of Many Colours is a traitor to both Mordor and the Free peoples. Permanently gains +100% magic damage, -50% cooldown on all skills and +500 lifepoints, but looses his area-of-effect damage

Zitat
I've strengthened magic attack and decreased cooldown of his skills, to make sure that he is formidable and skilful wizard, but he only gains +500 lifepoints (half in comparison with Gandalf, because Saruman isn't known, resilient fighter like his Gondor's counterpart)

The fact here is -as Mr Needful said to Goldenfold "a price for everything, Mr Goldenfold, a price for everything"- Gandalf got a win/win while Saruman got a win/loose.

Greetings, dear friends
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 27. Mär 2019, 23:17
I'm here to propose a little graphical improvements/changes for Saruman's ailities.

First the ability Power of the Speech i think it could use a better picture (not the cartoonish one from the base game). This below is a his staff from the movie and couple of other pics i seemed worthy for this ability:

And for the ability Wormtongue - i propose to rename this to Ensnaring Voice and change the picture to something like this:

Your thoughts?
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Only True Witchking am 27. Mär 2019, 23:48
I think it'd be a nice touch to change the Name of Wormtongue, since there is of course already another Wormtongue we all know.

For the Pictures however, I'd say switching it around would be better: The first picture should go to "Ensnaring Voice"/"Wormtongue" and the last Picture fits better to "Power of the speech" as it is a Picture from Sarumans speech.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 28. Mär 2019, 15:00
I think it'd be a nice touch to change the Name of Wormtongue, since there is of course already another Wormtongue we all know.

For the Pictures however, I'd say switching it around would be better: The first picture should go to "Ensnaring Voice"/"Wormtongue" and the last Picture fits better to "Power of the speech" as it is a Picture from Sarumans speech.
I agree to switch these ones around. As i've been pointed out in Discord, the Ensnaring Voice should use picture of saruman being friendly, needing to have peace as in the extended scene of RotK. I'll try to find a suitable one and cut it and see what's of it.

EDIT.

So I've managed to crop some of possible pictures. First three are the possible candidates, just there is a minor difference in sarumans facial expressions:

Well and the third one is rather tricky, cause it's from the scene where saruman asks "Are you here for information? I have some for you!" So it's not like pleading but still i found this image one of the suitable ones (this really shows the "Wormtongue"like smile):
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: AmosVogel am 31. Mär 2019, 18:58
It agree, Saruman didnt need Grima to convince or decieve the minds of its foes.

All those four images of him been charismatic and benevolent are cool, Saruman could access a special palantir  only for his voice.

And yes, i know mouth of sauron would be very similar, but we all fans can imagine what voice powers we can give to him.

Here are some ideas:

http://i64.tinypic.com/6izfd2.png
So you have come here for information? : All the enemy units and heroes loose their sight for a short time.
----
http://i67.tinypic.com/zx0brl.png
Cannot we take councel together? : Saruman uses his most mellow voice against his foes. Saruman does not recieve any damage for a medium time.
----
http://i64.tinypic.com/6sfcj6.png
You have fought many wars and slain many men: The selected enemy heroe becomes hostile towards his allies for a short time.

This could be a very interesting upgrade to Saruman.

Also i noticed that all the Istari, save Saruman got their respective titles. Hope it can be fixed!

Greetings ^^
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 31. Mär 2019, 19:43
It agree, Saruman didnt need Grima to convince or decieve the minds of its foes.

All those four images of him been charismatic and benevolent are cool, Saruman could access a special palantir  only for his voice.

And yes, i know mouth of sauron would be very similar, but we all fans can imagine what voice powers we can give to him.

Here are some ideas:

http://i64.tinypic.com/6izfd2.png
So you have come here for information? : All the enemy units and heroes loose their sight for a short time.
----
http://i67.tinypic.com/zx0brl.png
Cannot we take councel together? : Saruman uses his most mellow voice against his foes. Saruman does not recieve any damage for a medium time.
----
http://i64.tinypic.com/6sfcj6.png
You have fought many wars and slain many men: The selected enemy heroe becomes hostile towards his allies for a short time.

This could be a very interesting upgrade to Saruman.

Also i noticed that all the Istari, save Saruman got their respective titles. Hope it can be fixed!

Greetings ^^
Thank you for your support. I actually like this new Voice Palantir, it would be great to see it ingame. However i doubt it will convince Edain Team cause of the aforementioned similarities between him and Mouth of Sauron, but still you have my full suppoort on this one.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Seleukos I. am 31. Mär 2019, 19:55
I think Saruman is already very strong and doesn't Need any buffs. And giving him an invunerability would be completely broken.
But there is Nothing speaking against new pictures for his abilities (even if they aren't necessariy in my opinion).

regardes
Seleukos I.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 31. Mär 2019, 20:14
I think Saruman is already very strong and doesn't Need any buffs. And giving him an invunerability would be completely broken.
But there is Nothing speaking against new pictures for his abilities (even if they aren't necessariy in my opinion).

regardes
Seleukos I.
Well, really why would Saruman need Wormtongue to ensnare his enemies? He's very good at it on his own, that's the main reason of this proposal (new picture and name of ability Wormtongue) anyways. The invulnerability would be quite useful when fleeing the battlefield, but since other Mass Slayes don't have such option i could agree that it would be unnecessary.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Seleukos I. am 31. Mär 2019, 20:20
yes, in the books/the film Saruman was very good at ensnareing his enemies, but this is a game. So we have to think About aspects like balance, making Saruman also beeing able to fullfill Grimas rol he would be too good.
And if he had this invulnerability he would be the most op hero in the game-even more op than Thorin III.^^
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 31. Mär 2019, 20:28
I would agree that he would need to fulfill Grima's role IF Grima was not a controllable character, then it's correct, but now we have Grima with his own set of abilities centered on debuffing enemy heroes, so i don't think that we need a double (ish) character merge in saruman. I mean it doesn't make any sense - think about it logically: why would saruman use Grima's words if he's good at it on his own (as i said before). I'm not asking to change the ability in core, but just a visual improvement and name change. It would finally separate him from Grima which i never liked for them being merged.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Seleukos I. am 1. Apr 2019, 18:02
As I said, I'm not against changing the pictures, names or animations of sarumans abilities at all.
I just don't want theire effect to be changed^^
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: SP19XX am 3. Apr 2019, 18:49
I think Saruman is already very strong and doesn't Need any buffs. And giving him an invunerability would be completely broken.
But there is Nothing speaking against new pictures for his abilities (even if they aren't necessariy in my opinion).

regardes
Seleukos I.
Well, really why would Saruman need Wormtongue to ensnare his enemies? He's very good at it on his own, that's the main reason of this proposal (new picture and name of ability Wormtongue) anyways. The invulnerability would be quite useful when fleeing the battlefield, but since other Mass Slayes don't have such option i could agree that it would be unnecessary.
With this in mind, the other mass slayers do actually have an option;
Gandalf: Mount & Shield
Elrond: Mount
Legolas: Ranged thus can escape earlier.
Eomer: Mount
Gimli: Leap & Self Speed Up
Dwalin: Self Speed Up
Drar: Ranged
Mollok: Leap
Witch King & Dark Marshall: Mount
Zaphragor: Self Speed Up
Helegwen: Self Speed Up & Enemy Slow

This leaves Saruman & Murin as the only ones that could be considered as mass slayers as the only ones without some means of escape move, so it wouldn't be out of place. With Murin it fits in with the theme of the Iron Hills to buckle down and outlast enemies (which his other abilities make up for) so this wouldn't be out of place on Saruman who is alongside Gandalf the more expensive of the Mass Slayers.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 3. Apr 2019, 19:09
Indeed. And the time of invulnerability doesn't have to be that long, i think 5-7 seconds would be enough, although his Wormtongue ability could be considered as a means of retreat as he converts all enemies around him for a short time, but that's not an option against enemy heroes so i'm not against the idea.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Seleukos I. am 4. Apr 2019, 19:44
Even an invulerability that would just last for 3 seconds would make Saruman more than op. You can just walk him into the enemy army without any risk and than use his spells.
In general I don't think Saruman needs any improvements. He is a great mass slayer and a good supporter (he can level berserkers to level 5 with ONE move).
And don't Forget, that Lurtz can cripple enemy heroes that hunt Saruman. And his standart attack does knock back to units if I recall correctly.

So I don't think Saruman needs any changes at all.

regardes
Seleukos I.
Titel: Re: Saruman
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 7. Apr 2019, 08:57
Well from that point of view it really seems that he doesn't need any buffs. But my initial proposal about the ability picture change remain open.