Modding Union

[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Gondor Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: Lord of Mordor am 24. Okt 2015, 01:58

Titel: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Lord of Mordor am 24. Okt 2015, 01:58
In this thread, you can discuss balancing issues with the Gondor faction. If you feel a balance topic is so big it deserves its own thread, you're free to create one, but for smaller points this thread might be useful.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 25. Apr 2016, 16:38
Before I make my suggestion, let me say that I really like the changes made to Beregond with 4.3.1.  They really make Beregond stand out as a Hero, as well as really define his role in the faction. 

Now I wanted to make a post about this ability around the time 4.3.1 came out, but I have had the worst luck when it comes to getting Gondor when I choose Random, which is pretty much always.  :P 

Beregond's level 8 ability (the one with the German name), in my opinion, is incredibly overpowered once Beregond is level 10.  30 seconds of Invulerability to both Heroes and Buildings in a very large radius is way too much.  Let me put this into perspective.  Thorin Oakenshield needs to be level 10 to have his Invulerability to affect all nearby heroes.  Thorin costs 2600 and is the faction leader of Ered Luin.  Beregond costs 1000, and his ability also effects all nearby buildings, which makes Gondor's defensive capabilities better then they already were. 

And this is just 1 ability.  Beregond also has a lot of others that, while not overpowered, are very good abilities.  But with Beregond the way he is now, it is a flat out mistake not buying him in a match.  He improves offensive and defensive capabilities of the entire faction to the point where they can come out of pretty much any situation victorious. 

Of course, that is the way I see it.  Maybe it isn't as drastic as I make it sound.  But right now, I would say that Beregond's level 8 ability needs very heavy nerfs.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 25. Apr 2016, 18:52
You are on fire today Haman! +1.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Tirano am 25. Mai 2016, 02:02
I think that the archery building need a change

The archery at this moment is the more poor building of the game, offer only 1 kind of archers and one upgrade, also is the only building of gondor taht in lvl 2 dont unlocks a unit or a upgrade...  I observed that the only reason taht player make this bulding is for the fires arrow upgrade when they get dunedains, if you think about it the cost of fires arrow is to high, adding the cost of oportunity of a wasting space for a farm and the time and price of 2 bulding upgrade and the price of fires arrows.
I think you neet to dissolve this building and make recruitable the archers form the
barracks or do something to make more viable this building.

EDIT: also signals fires need to be better.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Idrial12 am 25. Mai 2016, 10:21
Tirano I totally agree with you, that the archery range is not the best solution. I also like your idea of making archers recruitable in the barracks. Since Gondor has 1 bulding space more I suggest that Archers need a lvl 2 barracks to be recruited. Fire arrows can be moved to the ranger tents or to the blacksmith.

kind regards,
Idrial
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Mai 2016, 11:24
EDIT: also signals fires need to be better.

You might probably need to explain this stance of yours more exhaustively. Giving proper reasons to a suggestion helps both your proposal to be backed by consistent elements and the other users to participate deeply in the debate and agree/disagree with you.

Also, double or multiple posts within 24 hours are forbidden by the rules. You can edit your own comments, if you want to add something more.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 25. Mai 2016, 11:38
I'm against this change, the archery range is an iconic part of BFME and sets Gondor. Upgrading the archery range decreases the recruitment time. But maybe it could be possible to make the fire arrows researchable at level 2 instead of 3. It could also be possible to create a new unit but make sure that it answers to a real need in the game and that would require much more development.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 25. Mai 2016, 12:54
I actually like how the Archery Range is now.  Yes, it can only train one unit, but as The_Nercomancer0 has stated, it is a very iconic part of Gondor.  And there really isn't any other unit that can be added to the Archery Range, besides the Guardians of the White Company, though I think Gondor can train enough Elite/Heroic units already.

Also, it's not like Gondor is starving for Build Plots, they do have the most in the game (9) on Castle Maps.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Idrial12 am 25. Mai 2016, 13:03
Well yes you are right. But I would like to find a way to make the Gondor Archers more common in games
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Tirano am 25. Mai 2016, 18:18
sorry for the double post, gondor have 9 Build Plots but also have a lot of different buildings so the the plots for farms are similar to others factions.
is true taht the archery is a iconic building and it will be sad to remove it... but we need to think in a solution for this
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 25. Mai 2016, 22:40
I don't see any problem. Archers got a pretty significant buff in the last patch, in that their cost was reduced to 300. You can easily spam them besides Gondor Soldiers and Tower Guards. On top of that, Fire arrows is a phenomenal upgrade, no matter where it is located.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 25. Mai 2016, 22:46
I would agree about Beregond being a little OP for his cost.

Regarding the Archery Range, I would say that previously it wasn't worth it, but since the archers got a price reduction its now a lot more manageable. You can start off spamming Gondor archers then transition into rangers. 1 thing I would really like to see though is move Fire Arrows to level 2 archery range, it takes really long to get them as it stands now, not to mention the high cost. I think the 3rd upgrade should just be build speed, if you put fire arrows on level 2 I bet you'd see a lot more people making the range.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 25. Mai 2016, 23:46
Ithilien Rangers with fire arrows at a level 2 Archery Range? No thanks.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 25. Mai 2016, 23:54
You forget how expensive the Rangers and Fire Arrows upgrade are, and how easy they are to kill with cavalry.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 26. Mai 2016, 00:15
Except, there will be Tower Guards. Many of them. Of course they are expensive, but there is a reason for that. Ithilien Rangers already do excellent damage by default, it's bonkers with fire arrows and the Composite Bow burst ability.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Vodohaka am 26. Mai 2016, 01:10
In my opinion Elite KryPtik has a valid argument. It takes very long to upgrade fire arrows.
Yes you can spam archers now, because of the price reduction. But the upgrade is problematic compared to other factions Gondor needs very long to research its archer attack upgrade.
Still I wouldn't like to see fire arrows as a level 2 upgrade. Instead I suggest to let it at level 3 and decrease the time to upgrade the archery range.
Then one can research fire arrows faster, but you have to pay the same price as before.
Also rangers should not become too strong because they cost the same as before and at the time you have a ranger camp outside of your base and the money to build them in masses you probably would have researched fire arrows anyway.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Tirano am 30. Mai 2016, 19:43
I don't like signals fires because if you compare with a farm they give less resources  assuming taht the cost of signals fires unit is the same that normal cost of unit (swordsmen cost 200, axes 200, spears 300 and archers 300) signal fires give on average 500 recources per 3 min and a farm full upgrade give 720 per 3 min.
Also if no mistakes this is a bulding for early game so if you compare the signal fires without the power this means no archer or spears and only one battalion this estructure give on average 200 per 3 min and the farm without upgrade give you 360 in the same time, this means that at 9 min of game you recover the invesion of the signals fires and in the mean time the far give you 904 extra recources discounting investment.

But is not only the diferent of production that worry me.. the farm has many other advantages

 -time of construction (farms take 10 seg less taht signals).
- initial inversion (farms only cost 176 recources because they give instantly 24) and signals fires cost 500 instead.
- farms give recources per 12 seg so the risk of lose the inversion is less.
-the farms can get de upgrade of the marketplace (900 recources per 3 min a farm full upgrade).
-with the farm you dont need to spend 3 powers on the palantir.
-the farm give recources so you can select on what spend the recources this means taht the farm is more versatile.

And the only adventajes fore signal fires are:

-healt.
-you dont need to byuls a barrack to make units.
-less comand point of units.

The only fact that I'm not aware is the permormance in combat of the units but in this aspect i dont see really big diferent betwen the units

knowing this I really dont see the point of make signals fires they are much much worse...
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: koh11 am 1. Jul 2016, 11:44
I have played around with Gandalf in Edain Mod quite a bit and he feels quite weak. His Wizard blast does almost no damage except to very weak enemies such as orcs and the same goes for Word of Power. This combined makes it feel like quite a waste of 3000 resources. I heard there was also a bug of magic damage not scaling with levels. Would that have to do with why his two abilities feel so weak?
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 1. Jul 2016, 12:23
Yeah, and that bug has been fixed. Also, put him on Aggressive stance when using those abilities, it helps a lot :)
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: koh11 am 1. Jul 2016, 22:42
Was there a new patch by any chance, and that's where it was fixed? Because I didn't get any updates from the Edain launcher
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Walküre am 1. Jul 2016, 22:48
I have played around with Gandalf in Edain Mod quite a bit and he feels quite weak. His Wizard blast does almost no damage except to very weak enemies such as orcs and the same goes for Word of Power. This combined makes it feel like quite a waste of 3000 resources. I heard there was also a bug of magic damage not scaling with levels. Would that have to do with why his two abilities feel so weak?

No. The scaling issue will be solved in the next update  :)

Besides, I think we had better continue this debate in the appropriate balance thread of this board; this topic is in fact primarily focused on balance, rather than actual suggestions. I will merge this thread with Gondor Balance Discussion.

--- MERGED ---
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 29. Aug 2016, 17:44
G'day,

I have some small suggestions for Boromir and Faramir. There has been some talk that Boromir is a little mediocre for his price. While I don't necessarily agree, I think this might give him a little boost: Move his ''Horn of Gondor'' to level 2 instead of 3, and his ''Heir of Gondor'' to level 4 from level 5. I am sure that this is not balance-breaking in anyway, and might be a nice little quality of life improvement so to speak. Boromir is a very fun hero to use, but his use is a little limited.

Another suggestion that was already made, but that I would like to show my support for, would be allowing the player to control Boromir during his ''Last Stand'' ability, but this might be more significant.

For Faramir, his leadership says it is unlocked at level 6, but instead unlocks at level 4. Faramir's leadership is considerably more powerful than his brother, even though they ultimately come at the same cost and Faramir's at one level earlier too. My suggestion is simple: Switch his leadership with his mount ability. Thus, mount at level 4, leadership at level 6.

Thoughts?
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: FG15 am 29. Aug 2016, 18:25
Faramir's leadership tooltip is outdated, apparently our testers have missed it so far.
He grants only +30% damage to infantry and +30% armor to cavalry instead of +50%. Also he grants no speed buff. Comparing direct combat strength therefore Boromirs leadership is considerably more powerfull than his brothers. What makes Faramir's leadership really strong is the fear resistance, as he is Gondor's main source for that. So it has to be on a lower level.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 29. Aug 2016, 18:35
I noticed something in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRSsEfnd1jg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRSsEfnd1jg)
Gandalf's shield against monsters and heroes disappears after two hits and is quite buggy overall.

The thing is, I don't know if it is a bug or an intended balance decision. Any clarification possible?
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: koh11 am 14. Sep 2016, 06:03
Gandalf still feels pretty weak. He has trouble killing most units with Wizard Blast except for orcs and really weak tier units. Even when he hits level 10, his word of power is utter crap. First of all it doesn't even kill most units, second of all it just knocks them back and they get up again and continue like nothing happened. It pretty much kills the whole point of getting the White Wizard...you are just better off getting Aragorn who not only has more survivability but actually does better at killing units. Lightning Sword is okay, if not borderline on the better side...standard B4me2 I guess, though I wouldn't mind if splash were added to it similar to Unofficial Patch 2.02.  Istari Light still does good damage while his Bubble Shield is just borderline sh*t in comparison to Thranduil's bubble shield (Idk what Edain team was thinking on that one).

I would really suggest buffing his wizard blast and word of power in damage so atleast its useful not just against the weakest units in the game. His Bubble shield needs a definite improvement imo...at-least to the point its actually good for something.

For Gondor when two of your main heroes feel absolute crap/worthless, it honestly takes the whole fun out of playing for me as Gondor has always been one of my fav factions. The other hero I am talking about is Boromir which most definitely isn't worth 1800 resources for how fast he dies. He's good with his shield ability but other than that absolutely horrible for 1800 considering how Edain Team classifies him as a "Tank". Please please, please take a look at Gandalf, he feels very underwhelming and the damage per level buff feels almost unnoticable.

This is just a suggestion but for Berethor I think his level 10 ability is way too overpowered and maybe he should just have that interaction with Faramir, to better represent the lore. Could maybe make Berethor a support hero for Faramir alone to better supplement him. Also this is just my input but I liked having Denethor only as a fort hero, that and he's overpowered I feel with his constant spam of summoning units...which makes absolutely no sense lore-wise or game-wise.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 15. Sep 2016, 14:09
I do agree that Gandalf is a bit weak right now, but I think his Wizard Blast and Bubble Sheld are fine right now.  Wizard Blast deals decent damage already, and it comes back incredibly quickly, especially once you are Gandalf the White.  Also, it is a level 1 ability, so it really shouldn't be wrecking armies.  And his bubble shield, in my opinion, is in a great spot.  Comparing it to Thranduil's, it comes back much quicker, and most importantly, doesn't take up an ability slot.  And even if the actual effect is weaker then Thranduil's, you also have to remember that Gandalf is NOT supposed to be a tank, while Thranduil is.

The way I see it, Gandalf needs 2 things right now.  First, as you said, Word of Power needs its damage increased.  It shouldn't be able to insta-kill armies of elite units, but basic units should take more damage from it then what they take now.  And second, Gandalf should have his base health increased to 4500 instead of 3500.  Gandalf's main problem right now is how much of a risk he has of dieing, and this increase would reduce that risk.  Also, Saruman already has this amount of health, so I find it a bit unfair that Gandalf doesn't.

I agree that Boromir needs a buff.  Right now, I think the best option would be to improve his Last Stand to where you can control Boromir while it is active, and it acts more like an invincibility, so instead of dieing when the effect ends, he will be left with about 10% of his health left.  Other then that, I'm fine with Boromir.   

Beregond (Not Berethor, the guy from the Third Age game ;)) indeed does more then he is worth when he is level 10, but I think this is countered by him being underwhelming until that point, so I am fine with him.

Denethor was changed due to unfixable bugs when he was on the Citadel, so that won't change.

Thanks for the feedback on Gondor.  It is always good to see people take interest in posting about Balance :)
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: koh11 am 16. Sep 2016, 07:05
Hey thanks for taking the time to respond back. I really appreciate it.  :)

I have a question...judging by your post, if you don't want Wizard Blast to be able to kill more than just low-tier units, what exactly do you want its role to be in his kit? He's classified as a mass slayer. Sames question goes for Word of Power.

I don't mind if his damage on both Wizard Blast and Word of Power stays low-mediocre, but there should be some sort of trade-off. I think it would be cool to try something unique with Gandalf while retaining his classic set of abilities just with a different play-style as this wizard who comes blasts back enemies not killing them but more of a window of opportunity to save your army/heroes.

My suggestion would be to give wizard blast ability to knock back heroes except for the ring heroes and increase its radius(never understood why this wasn't in the vanilla game looking at the movie fight between Gandalf and Saruman knocking each other around).  For word of power, decrease the radius moderately and reduce its cool-down to a minute so its more frequently available not for annihilating armies but saving yours. 

1000 hp boost would be good. What's cooldown for Gandalf's Bubble in Edain?

 Again the whole reason I love Edain Mod is because it gets most of lore/gameplay in a sweet spot. Seems like there's just no innovative ideas on Beregond to be more connected to the lore (sorry not Berethor :P). I would rant about Denethor but don't really have any ideas. Just don't like his spam soldiers out of thin air aspect.

Edit: Is there also some way to speed up Gandalf's Wizard Blast animation in Edain Mod? It feels EXTREMELY slow/clunky.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 16. Sep 2016, 14:05
The reason I think Gandalf's Wizard Blast should stay the same is not only because it is a level 1 ability, but it comes back a lot faster then any other of his damaging abilties.  In pretty much every other version of BFME, Gandalf was ment to be an Army Killer by himself.  If you had a leveled up Gandalf, you could pretty much kill any army that your enemy could send.  And his incredibly high price and CP cost reflected that.  However, in Edain, that are very few Heroes/Powers that can decimate entire armies, just because of how the balance in Edain works.  So, it is best to come up with way to make abilities not too strong, but effective in certain situations.

As for your suggestions for Wizard Blast and Word of Power, from what I can tell, the team is generally against changing the role of BFME's iconic abilities.  And Gandalf has the most iconic abilities in the entire game, so don't expect them to drastically change any time soon. 

I don't know what the exact cooldown number is on Gandalf's bubble shield, but considering Thranduil's is 60 seconds, I can pretty much guarentee Gandalf's is much less then that, just from playing this game a lot.  Maybe around 30 seconds?

I think the idea behind Beregond's abilities is that not only he a Citadel Guard, which is the reason he has mostly defensive abilities, but because of his role connecting to Faramir in the books, he can not only can support him, but all heroes once he is level 10.  And I think that is pretty well done.

Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Sawman am 16. Sep 2016, 14:11
I too agree with this ^

But I think Borimir definitely needs to be looked at, for 1800 he's just not really worth that. He has the lowest damage in terms of tanks in the game, Hama of Rohan has the same damage at the start but has the potential to do more damage then most hero killers and he is cheaper too so I think a damage buff would be nice.

I think it would be cool for him to have a stance system applied to him but then he'd have to have some abilities changed for this to happen but I'd be okay with it

Sword and shield- he can knock back enemies and has more armour

Sword and horn- less armour but his horn has a really fast cool down and he does a bid more damage

Sword and knife- even less armour but a lot more damage and causes splash damage
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 16. Sep 2016, 15:41
If it can be made without making Boromir not auto-acquire units when on defensive (Sword and Shield) stance, I love this idea of stances!
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: PythonX35 am 18. Sep 2016, 02:37
Here are my personal ideas for balancing the Gondor hero line-up.

Aragorn - I think Aragorn's stages 1 and 2 are fine at this time, however his stages 3 and 4 need to be adjusted.  One of the biggest issues I have with Aragorn at this time is that his leadership ability is one of the worst leadership's in the game (if not the worst).  Aragorn is the King of Men and should therefore have a leadership ability that appropriately reflect's his status (especially since you can't get it until he is level 10).

Solution for Stage 3:

Solution for Stage 4:

Solution for Stage 4 Alternative:

Solution for Stage 4 Alternative - 2:

Beregond - I think Beregond is fine as is, however the only potential adjustment would be to swap his cost with Boromir's cost as he is a far more useful hero than Boromir in their current respective states.

Boromir - The main issue with Boromir is that his cost is not reflective of his usefulness.  Here are some different solutions to close the gap on his cost to usefulness ratio.

Solution 1:

Solution 2:

Denethor - I think Denethor only requires minor adjustments at this time.

Solution:

Faramir - I think Faramir is perfectly fine as is, and does not require any adjustments at this time.

Gandalf - The biggest issue with Gandalf is that he is incredibly expensive and doesn't do enough damage to adequately fill the roll of mass slayer for Gondor.  He dies too quickly and his skills do not do enough damage to justify his cost. 

Solution:

Imrahil - I think Imrahil only needs minor adjustments at this time.

Solution:

These are my suggestions on how to better balance the Gondor hero line-up, and I can provide reasons for each solution if requested.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 18. Sep 2016, 05:11
I agree with all of your points, except on Boromir.

I would say that what Boromir needs is better tank abilities to enhance his role as a tank. Here are my ideas:

Final Stand: Make this ability activate when Boromir is at 5% health, giving him a temporary 999% armor boost, while keeping him in control of the player. In addition, this ability should become stronger incrementally at levels 3, 5, 7 and 10, making the debuff last longer and making the armor boost last longer. If these changes were implemented, Boromir would become incredibly resistant to damage for a short time, while also still being attackable, due to not being invulnerable. This would force enemies to fight him and suffer a nasty debuff, or run. I will also note that Gondor is 1 of only 2 factions who have no means of debuffing their enemies, which hurts them terribly late game against most factions.

Horn of Gondor: This ability is underwhelming to say the least. With the sheer amount of fear resistance in the game, it becomes utterly useless after 10 minutes in the game. My suggestions would be to decrease the cooldown of this and all other stun fear effect abilities to 30 seconds to counteract temporary fear resistance buffs. It also needs an additional effect so that it can be somewhat useful after the enemy gets a fear resistance source, so cause it to also slow enemies down, maybe halve their speed.

Brave Resistance: I'm ok with this being a straight armor buff for Boromir, it should not give any damage. I, however, have a different idea. This could be a passive ability, similar to Celeborn's, where the more surrounded by enemy troops Boromir is, the more armor he gains. Starting at 25 troops he gains 50% armor, and then 25% more for every 25 enemies up to 500, for a total of 525% max if 500 enemy troops or more are nearby. This would represent him fighting against huge amounts of Uruk-hai in defense of the hobbits quite nicely I think.

I have no issue with Boromir's 2 other abilities, but the first 3 definitely need some more oomph to make them better.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 19. Sep 2016, 14:13
A lot of great ideas here.  Just a few thoughts:

Completely agree with improving Aragorn's Leadership.  Right now, it's one of the worst leaderships in the game.  Either making it last much longer or making it a Hero leadership would be great.

I agree with making Boromir's Last Stand better, though my opnion on that ability is the same as before.  I also agree with buffing Horn of Gondor in some way, but..... Well, I'll make a seperate post about that later, if I got time anyways.

Everything for Denethor, Imrahil, and Gandalf (besides maybe Lightning Sword having splash damage) I also completely agree with.  So +1 for all those ideas.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 19. Sep 2016, 17:22
I agree on improving Aragorn's leadership. Maybe adding a secondary active effects which increases damage of nearby units, similar to Glorious Charge?

Agree also about Gandalf's health and damage of his spells

I'm quite fine about Denethor, but mainly because I've never used Emergency Mobilization

I like Elite's ideas about Boromir^^
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Isilendil am 12. Nov 2016, 14:39
Nobody use basic archers. Why? Because the archery building is required for them recruitment making them less practical to use. Such problem can be solved by allowing archers to be recruited in barracks and moving flaming arrows to blacksmith or Faramir's camp.

Denethor can strike from afar by summoning melee guards which is an overwhelming threat to any catapults or archers due to the guards appear instantly near them. OP
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: kmogon am 12. Nov 2016, 18:16
Nobody use basic archers. Why? Because the archery building is required for them recruitment making them less practical to use. Such problem can be solved by allowing archers to be recruited in barracks and moving flaming arrows to blacksmith or Faramir's camp.

I prefer them rather than ithilien rangers - you can equip them with heavy armor, they have equal amount of heath points and thanks to their number they have better chance to survive calavary charge ( not counting that they are cheaper both in resources and command points. Another reason that they have their own building is that gondor have nine plots and player still should choose carefully wchich building to construct. Without archery range it would make worst.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 12. Nov 2016, 19:11
Nobody use basic archers.
I disagree. I use them because they are good at defending Castle walls and gates on Castle maps.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Mogat am 12. Nov 2016, 20:14
In competative play no good player uses basic archers with Gondor, Isil is right in this regard.
Denethor is indeed a little too strong, but I am sure that the testers and the team are well aware of that and will fix it in the next patch.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: -DJANGO- am 12. Nov 2016, 20:34
Good points overall. Agree that Gondor should have to decide carefully which building to construct, due to 9 buildplots. However i agree with Mogat that in the current version 4.4.1 the archery building looses against stables (or one more Eco building for price-reduction) in terms of usefulnes.
I really don't like that Gondor is often played with Gondor Sword Spam. In my opinion Gondor should have a mix of standard units (EG/MG), due to their role as "Allrounder-Faction".
However i can tell you, that Gondor standard archers will most likely be more viable in the next version, because of the upcoming changes. Little hint: their formation will play a role...
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: koh11 am 27. Nov 2016, 00:19
In the new version is Gandalf getting any changes or is he still being left as underwhelming. Its quite disheartening personally speaking try to play Gondor when Gandy's so underwhelming for how iconic he is.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Tirano am 28. Nov 2016, 17:29
agree with gandalft and with islendil, i think the archery need something else, actually is the most poor building of gondor, I dont know how make it better maybe when u put the fire arrows upgrade allow the building to habe fire arrows so u can use this instead of a tower, i dont know...
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Nov 2016, 19:55
In the new version is Gandalf getting any changes or is he still being left as underwhelming. Its quite disheartening personally speaking try to play Gondor when Gandy's so underwhelming for how iconic he is.

Yes, Gandalf will receive a boost  :)

Since the mechanics of the game change radically in the next patch, he will kind of retrieve his past iconic strength (as the most recognisable hero of BFME1). His conceptual design shall remain unaltered though, because it's extremely iconic (as you pointed out yourself).
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: koh11 am 2. Dez 2016, 00:54
Thank you. Keep up the great work and I can't wait for the new patch if its as you say. :D
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Walküre am 2. Dez 2016, 07:23
Thank you. Keep up the great work and I can't wait for the new patch if its as you say. :D

Thank you for appreciating all of this. I can't obviously reveal anything, but you just need to know that all these changes are pieces of a wider grand design, which will exactly constitute the core of the new revolutionary patch. I'm quite sure that your hopes won't be let down  ;)
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: calixoxx am 12. Jan 2017, 03:06
Some things I have noticed about Gondor:

. Basic archers are worthless competitively, totally agree with everyone else. What makes it worse is Ithilians not being strong late game unless you take up a precious build plot with an archery range you will never use and only keep for flaming arrows.

. Disagree that Denethor is OP, I think he actually is a good counter to basic 'camp and seige' that we see occur a LOT in competitive: people will literally sit outside your base with a fully upgraded army but not attack, only with 2-4 protected siege machines. I will say though that I never use his mobilization power because I rarely want to invest 200+ to spam units that can't be upgraded.

. Gandalf definitely needs the buff to health and/or armor. And agree his lightning needs splash.

. Aragorn needs something- it could be the buff for heros discussed, or it could be a debuff for enemies which Gondor definitely does need. Also agree that his AOD power should not be a ring around him- it's useless unless surrounded by enemies and still leaves him vulnerable to hero killers. I would like a single free unit of AOD as well. Right now Aragorn is not worth 2500, he also dies very easily it seems.

. Boromir needs a rework of his abilities but I think he could be worth his current price with the right modifications. I don't know if it's possible, but I would love the horn power to supersede fear resistance but I am unsure if this is possible or not. At the very least, totally agree it's range needs an increase. Also totally agree that fear-causing abilities are very rarely effective late game with different buffs for nearly every faction, and this renders Boro's horn useless often.

Overall, Gondor is sorely ineffective late game. The buffs are not enough, and the debuffs are nonexistent. The spells are also challenging- AOD is extremely difficult to place in most situations to even summon it due to many map layouts, and once you do summon, it takes forever for it to actually show up. by which time most armies have seen it/heard it and run away from it. The AOD units are too slow to catch many units and then you end up wasting the power.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 12. Jan 2017, 21:24
Gondor Archer spam is arguably better than Ithilien Rangers. They cost less cp, have more in a battalion, and have substantially more armor. Ithiliens are nice for a glass cannon nuke strategy, but cavalry or any AOE attacks will make their life hell.

His summon can kill siege in seconds and cannot be countered, and he can be put in a tower to have massive range boosts. Completely disagree here, he is broken.

Wait till the next patch ;)

smh WRONG. Aragorn is one of the BEST heroes in the game, bar none. Bladmaster Knife Throw combined can destroy most other heroes, he has the versatility of being able to mount, he has a fear, he can cloak in early game, and he has a hero heal. His circular AoTD can destroy ENTIRE ARMIES if you trap them in the ring, as they cannot escape out of it and are constantly being hit by the ghosts, as well as any troops you have. The only ability that needs looking at is his leadership, which is terrible. Everything else about him is amazing, and he is well worth his price tag.

Boromir is super useful early game, and moderately useful late game. You really want him late game just for his leadership and summon. Overall, I think just his last stands needs tweaking, and maybe a bit of a price decrease.

The thing about Gondor is they are actually very well balanced, compared to other factions which are either underpowered or overpowered. Gondor is neither super weak nor strong at any stage in the game, and they arn't like Mordor and Lorien who are broken at all stages of the game. Changes need to be made to the other factions, not Gondor.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: [BMD]Dmitry am 13. Jan 2017, 20:48
Changes need to be made to the siege of the game or with Denethor (!)
Look at the replay, I had 20 loremasters, unlimited resources, catapults, but could not defeat Gondor!

It really is 100% OP as well as the strength of the walls of Gondor
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: calixoxx am 15. Jan 2017, 02:25
Gondor Archer spam is arguably better than Ithilien Rangers. They cost less cp, have more in a battalion, and have substantially more armor. Ithiliens are nice for a glass cannon nuke strategy, but cavalry or any AOE attacks will make their life hell.

His summon can kill siege in seconds and cannot be countered, and he can be put in a tower to have massive range boosts. Completely disagree here, he is broken.

Wait till the next patch ;)

smh WRONG. Aragorn is one of the BEST heroes in the game, bar none. Bladmaster Knife Throw combined can destroy most other heroes, he has the versatility of being able to mount, he has a fear, he can cloak in early game, and he has a hero heal. His circular AoTD can destroy ENTIRE ARMIES if you trap them in the ring, as they cannot escape out of it and are constantly being hit by the ghosts, as well as any troops you have. The only ability that needs looking at is his leadership, which is terrible. Everything else about him is amazing, and he is well worth his price tag.

Boromir is super useful early game, and moderately useful late game. You really want him late game just for his leadership and summon. Overall, I think just his last stands needs tweaking, and maybe a bit of a price decrease.

The thing about Gondor is they are actually very well balanced, compared to other factions which are either underpowered or overpowered. Gondor is neither super weak nor strong at any stage in the game, and they arn't like Mordor and Lorien who are broken at all stages of the game. Changes need to be made to the other factions, not Gondor.

Hi Kryptik, I think you may have misunderstood some things.

I have not seen many people utilize Gondor archer spam whatsoever, so surely it is not the most economical or strongest support for Gondor late game?

On the point of Denethor, yes he can destroy siege but I do not think siege needs to be some glorified aspect of the game. Personally, I am tired of people sitting outside your base with a fully upgraded army but just attacking with catapults. Denethor helps solve this issue and ensures that you need to make more than 1-2 catapults to be effective against Gondor when sieging.

Aragorn is killed pretty easily IMHO and once he puts a target on his back with the AOD lvl 10 power, he goes down vs many heros. I would much prefer a loose battalion of AoD summoned instead.

I never said Boro was not useful period, you actually just repeated my point for me. Boro's horn in 90% of cases is totally ineffective late game.

I repeat my concern about the spell power AoD as well; its very difficult to place on many maps, cant be summoned in the cloud of war, and the units are so slow that many armies can just outrun it.

I also wanted to discuss another thing I've been noticing about Gondor gameplay: lately there has been an explosion of Signal Fire strategy. Many players now simply will only use these signal fire units and then save for heros.

Am I the only person who thinks signal fires are broken?

A few complaints:

. 4 spell points earns you double units from these signal fires.
. The units can be upgraded.
. Not only are you spending 500 resources one-time and then getting unlimited units for the rest of the game, but these units have abilities which renders other Gondor early units unpreferential. You are getting arguably better units totally for free.
. The signal fires themselves are pretty damn hard to destroy.
. You get varied units- archers, pikes, and infantry. This means there isn't even a good early counter for them.

My gripe is that these signal fires are next-level Mordor spam, just better. Yes, you can't control what you get, but they still spam and cluster and the abilities make them stronger early game. Combined with the sheer spam nature, this proves to be an extremely annoying and slightly OP gameplay.

Because you can upgrade them also means your free army sticks around from early game straight through late game.

Am I alone here??

Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 15. Jan 2017, 03:39
You also don't get any money from signal fires and produce your units rather slowly, meaning you usually need several of them, which in turn again hurts your economy. You don't really get these units for free, you're paying for it with a significantly lower income. In my opinion you are actually less versatile because of your weaker eco, meaning you can't get Knights as quickly and probably will never go for Rangers either. I do have to admit that it's been quite a while since I've last used them, but since nothing changed I don't see why they would be overpowered or even broken.

Aragorn has high health, the highest straight up melee damage output of all heroes in the game, can boost his armour and his damage even further and can heal himself. If you lose this guy to other heroes on a regular basis, you're doing something wrong^^

Boromir will probably get buffed indirectly in the next patch, so look forward to that. ;)

Even though the AoD is probably in its weakest state since BfME I, it is still devastating. It's just no longer a point-click-profit power. It can sometimes be difficult to place, you're right, and it does take quite a while to appear. Use it to pincer the enemy between your army and the AoD by summoning it behind his lines. It's actually easier to do than one might think, since you can easily get vision with Pippin or some cavalry going around the enemy.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: calixoxx am 15. Jan 2017, 07:00
I actually really disagree here. While using 3-4 signal fires, and maybe run just 1 farm settlement if I can find it, there is no need for me to run any barracks or stables in my base at all, devoting 5, at times all 6, build plots just for resources.

You see, you are able to reverse the standard- resources in base, barracks on the field. The difference is that they are all free. Yes, they don't all come at the same time, but even so, if you get x2 every time it summons and then upgrade them, it's pretty crazy. I would suggest watching some versed players with this strat because then I think you may see the issue.

They are better units because of the abilities, they are all free, which means you arent spending resources on units. Only to upgrade them. That is where you save money. Then use your base to generate resources for heros while you're spamming slightly-better-than-standard units.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Mogat am 15. Jan 2017, 09:17
In my experience the signalfire strat is inferior to the classic gondor style, I don't see it beeing op of any kind. Going for them significantly delays your further tech as a gondor (upgrades, elite, most important kav) .
The thing is, you have to hit the gondor before his 3 point spell starts kicking in. This is actually managable, I didn't have problems with that at all.
You have to attack, catch the spread out spawning units at their own and deny mapcontrol for your opponent, or even try early kav if he doesn't go for the support barracks.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 16. Jan 2017, 00:51
Going for signal fires leaves you extremely vulnerable to cav. Against any faction who can get them reasonably quickly you will get dominated. Especially if you only use your base for resources and don't make support pikes.

I wasn't disagreeing about Boromir, I was just pointing out my thoughts about him.

Elendil covered my thoughts on Aragorn perfectly.

The AotD summon is fine if you use it right. You should use your army as an anvil, and the AotD as a hammer, to prevent them running away.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: calixoxx am 16. Jan 2017, 01:56
I see your point about cavalry, but excluding Rohan, you aren't getting cavalry early enough to control signal fire units before they are spammed so much they are clumped and no longer vulnerable to cavalry anyway. We should all acknowledge that cavalry trample speed down is so intense that late game you can't penetrate clumps of units. This applies to signal fire units as well, especially given that these units have ability buffs too.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 16. Jan 2017, 03:59
1 unit of cavalry can take down 3-4 clumped units easily if there are no pikes to support. You are also going to have infantry backing you up in the meantime, which can tie up the enemy army or harass their signal fires. I really think if anything signal fires are actually not as good as straight Gondor Soldier spam, due to their formation. The next beta will reveal some different details about that however, just be patient ;)
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 28. Jan 2017, 14:09
Can you guys decrease cost of Border Stronghold cost to 1000? Becouse currently we need to pay for Imrahil 3500 gold and make Knights of Dol Amroth recruitable without Imrahil needed to be on field it is just to expensive );
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 28. Jan 2017, 14:14
The Stronghold is just way too strong to only cost 1000 resources. Gondor already has great cavalry, so paying a bit more for the heroic variant is no big deal.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 28. Jan 2017, 14:35
The Stronghold is just way too strong to only cost 1000 resources. Gondor already has great cavalry, so paying a bit more for the heroic variant is no big deal.

But paying 3500 for Imrahil .... besides who use Gondor Cavalry if u have great free swordsmen from Signal Fire  xD . Buildings get nerfed in 4.5 i heard
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 28. Jan 2017, 14:57
A lot of people use Knights. Especially good players.

I don't know what nerfing buildings has to do with your proposal?

If your problem is the cost of Imrahil, argue for that, not for reducing the cost of something else. You don't pay 3500 for Imrahil, you pay 3500 for a strong outpost that generates resources, recruits unique units and can be further upgraded to heal and buff your units. On top of that you get a hero.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 28. Jan 2017, 16:25
You can still propose a cost reduction for Imrahil himself, Slawek :)
I just wanted to point out that the outpost itself can't really get much cheaper (it's a Stronghold after all, it should have some defensive uses). I can't really say anything about Imrahil himself since I never use him^^
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 28. Jan 2017, 16:55
Thanks and sorry i deleted post i needed to delete other 2 similar proposals and it seems it was one too much. I actally think Imrahil cost is quite good considering he is a Prince but i have diffrent idea to improve Atheling Guard Imrahil level 10 ability and make him more worth this prize he is now . Atheling Guard have level 1 when he summon them what about they were already level 10 similar like Rohan Herald. Also I wont mind give them toggle between mount and dismount like  Black raiders
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Dain@ am 5. Feb 2017, 10:27
Hi people !
 I propose to add a new ability to spell book "Valor previous years" or "Blood of Númenor." This ability will work Passive and give the following bonuses: Health Gondor soldiers + 25% and + 10% damage and armor. The reason I suggest potobnoe following:
First, at the average infantry of Gondor. It is all good, but at the end of the game Gondor has those soldiers who would help defeat the enemy, the special booking over much! (Dwarves, Trolls, and the elite of Mordor, Imladris, etc.)
Second: In the first epoch of the people of the West were much stronger and braver soldiers end of the third period. Gandalf himself said: "Valor west of people forgotten, earlier in the Kings tombs were more luxurious than the current governors of strongholds"
Third: Gondor takes a number! Quality - good, but not enough !. Who can say that Gondor easier to play! it does not require special mechanics for more powerful forces and that Gondor powerful simplicity and clarity of the gameplay the game! Yes I agree with you, but like the end of the game to get a certain quality Impuls and then Gondor will return to its former glory !!!
Also, this capability could open some political Passive ability for the citadel guards or something like that, for what would add zest to the game.

What do you think?
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Goodfella am 8. Mär 2017, 15:41
Hi, I’m a big fan edain and regularly play competitive 1v1s against some of the best players.

Before I start my discussion I’d just like to say how impressive it is that the edain team has created such an interesting and (although with some significant exceptions) balanced mod. You guys have created (imo) one of the best rts games in your spare time and given it away for free.

Any criticisms I make are aimed at improving the multiplayer experience to increase the player base and longevity of the mod.

This post includes some quite in depth discussion. I did so in the hope that casual players can understand where I’m coming from and join the discussion too. I hope it doesn’t seem as if I’m going over stuff you already know.

Gondor Cavalry
For my first post, I’d like to discuss Gondor cavalry, specifically their alternate formation. Whilst this is by no means the most significant balance issue, I’d like to talk about it because I think it hasn’t had the attention it deserves. What’s more, I think this subject is interesting because it highlights many aspects of 1v1 play. My explanation is not only a simple 1 cav vs 1 pike scenario but considers the dynamics of an entire match.

The number one issue for me is the +35% armor vs pikes granted by the alternate formation.

Early game battles and 1 Cav vs 1 Pike
In the early game when considering simple clashes of armies, the formation boost to armor doesn’t have much of an affect. When fighting factions with weak early game pikes, such as lorien, the boost in armor IS enough to kill a single upgraded pike (without trample revenge). However, this has little effect on the overall game because:
1.   Gondor cav is significantly more expensive than pike units in the early game and will lose in 2v1 scenario
2.   Factions with weak/no early game pikes have strengths elsewhere (e.g. lorien’s archers and isengards anti-cav wargs)

Harassing and map control
This is the area in which I think the formation becomes too powerful.

When playing competitively it is paramount to wrestle for map control. If you allow your opponent to occupy most outside farms he will have a superior economy which will be invested into his army = gg 4u. Wrestling for map control consists of direct attacks to your enemy’s army, harassing his farms and defending your own. The most effective way of harassing your enemy is to split your army and hit multiple farms at once, making it more difficult for your enemy to defend all at once.

Cavalry in general is very effective in 1v1 matches because it is so good for securing map control. Having cavalry on the field stops your enemy harassing your farms with unprotected sword battalions, because your cavalry can zip all over the map quickly and run them over. Therefore, once cavalry hits the field your enemy must harass with at least 1 pike unit.

By midgame you can easily have 2-3 battalions of cavalry. With other factions 1-2 pike units are enough to counter cavalry and continue the harassment. This is not the case vs Gondor because of their formation. 2-3 gondor cav can deal with 1-2 pikes (unupgraded) by stopping before trample and switching to formation and surrounding the enemy. One battalion can tank the dmg whilst the others inflict flank dmg.

You NEED map control so the enemy is forced to commit more pike units to the harassment. By committing these units to the flanks your enemy weakens their armies over the map, especially in the centre. Moreover, such a heavy investment in pikes by your enemy increase the relative power of your infantry army, as swords are the direct counter to pikes.

Upgrades and buffs

Forge blades
Forge blades do a lot to counter the problem of gondor cav because of the additional dmg pikes get to cavalry and monsters. So, rushing for forge blades is an effective counter to gondor cav’s strength vs pikes.

However, forge blades on cav increase dmg to structures significantly increasing your ability to harass your enemy. So, any gains can quickly be lost by constant, quick cav harassment.

Additional armour in mid/late game
Gondor cav, (which is tanky by default) can receive all the usual upgrades to improve their armour and survivability (heavy armour, banner carriers horse shields – and additional +25% armour vs pikes).

This in combination with buffs from heroes, 30% from Boromir and Faramir, denethor buffs and heroic statues means that Gondor cav can still stand up reasonably well to upgraded pikes, so long as they are not outnumbered.

All this means is that it is very difficult for your enemy to get and maintain map control on the flanks when playing against Gondor cav. This problem is further exacerbated by the fact that Gondor can buff their farms through the market place (+30% production).

In the late-game I will often have 4-5 or sometimes even 6 battalions of Gondor cav, the more you have the better – your opponent must invest more are more into their harassing armies (up to a point, you need infantry too!)

Therefore Gondor’s cavalry more than any other faction can grab and maintain map control very easily,

Countering Gondor cav
You either must invest very heavily in flanking armies to harass your enemy on the flanks, thereby weakening your presence in the centre of the map OR concede the flanks in favour of keeping your entire army in the centre of the map and going for a quick outpost. To make it clear, it MUST be one or the other because any stray unit too far from your army will be killed if the cav sees it.

Either way your pretty buggered. Even if you do go for centre/ outpost route you will have a significantly lower economy. Your outpost still won’t be safe either as it can be rushed by the cav and infantry armies. The cav can attack your outpost buildings whilst suffering minimal dmg even vs pikes bcs of their formation.

Anti-cavalry cavalry is a really nice and interesting idea. Wargs can do significant dmg to a gondor cavalry rush bcs of their howl ability (makes them faster than cav and +50% dmg), the fact that they have lower CP values and the bcs gondors formation has no effective on cav. However, this counter is limited to only a few factions. Once upgraded gondor cav is pretty decent against anti-cav cavalry anyway because of their shear tanky-ness.

There are a few somewhat solid counter I can think of:
1. going for quick upgrades on elite pikes (tower-guards, Mirkwood pikes, carn-dum pikes, imla pikes). However, this isn’t easy when you are constantly being harassed by infantry and cav.

2.Cavalry archers are another interesting choice, particularly the elk riders due to their knockback.

3.Similarly, having an equal number of beorn bears to cav ratio is an effective counter because of their knockback but they are vulnerable to flank dmg if outnumbered and suffer from a lack of upgrades in the mid/late game.

4. Probably most important, spells that knock-down slow or freeze the cav, so that you can try to catch it when it is outnumbered.

Conclusion
All this post I have been talking about how well Gondor cavalry can stand up to their direct counters but you also have to consider their innate effective-ness against everything else (the role of any cav - to counter swords archers and buildings). The end result is a cavalry army that is extremely hard to kill even with direct counters that can deliver game-deciding damage.

Essentially, the formation switch has no disadvantage:
The switch is instantaneous so if you need the speed back to escape you get it straight away. If you are losing you can run (if you are winning you can reduce casualties with the switch – no risk). If you are outnumbered or your enemy power buffs/debuffs on one side of the map – so what? You can just switch stances and run to the other side of the map to harass then send some infantry to stop their harass.

The same argument could be made for gondor soldier’s armour/speed trade off. However, it is nowhere near as significant, bcs of their base speed. If gondor soldiers had the same bse speed as cav their stance change would be significantly better – again bcs you can’t catch them but they can buff if winning.

To be clear, Gondor cav is not op in the same sense as haldir’s arrow or thorin iii where getting them and exploiting them is very easy and can really break balance without much effort. To exploit this imbalance is quite difficult and requires good micro and will be countered if your opponent is significantly better. However, between equal players Gondor cav can really break balance if used correctly. Gondor cav (unlike thorin the iii 😝) isn’t capable of winning the battle alone, you need infantry and heroes too.

The solutions I see to the problem are:
1.   Simply scrap the armour boost to pikes – the gondor cav will still benefit from all other armour boost and will still be tanky af but more vulnerable to their direct counter. Allowing a few pikes to do the job of harassing without the worry of instantly losing them.
2.   Have a transition period between formation swaps, so that the cav can be ‘caught’ by pikes
3.   Some may think this is too far but I like the idea of increase armour vs sword but decreased vs pikes when in formation, this way it will be easier to counter attacks on buildings but the enemy will also be punished if they forget to protect with pikes.

As we move into 4.5 I see this problem only getting worse because:
1.   Formations of gondor give +20% dmg and armour global
2.   Towers are getting nerfed – even easier to kill enemy buildings including resource buildings in main camps without walls (Mordor, Isen).

This formation is not super op in a vacuum, but when everything else is considered it quickly spirals out of control - all Gondor’s buffs to armour, denethor’s dmg buffs, buff to eco and cavalries innate speed and effectiveness in 1v1s.

Thanks for reading, I look forward to peoples feedback.





Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: -DJANGO- am 8. Mär 2017, 16:17
Congrats on your 1. post!  ;)

I share the same opinion and we've already talked about it internal. As far as i know, it is technically not possible to lower the amour boost of the ability to only one unit kind (here: pikes).
Maybe there will be a change, we have to see. Anyhow, it is helpful that it got attention on  the public forum. Makes it easier to convince  :)
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Mogat am 8. Mär 2017, 16:38
I have to say, that is a very well written post with good arguments that consider the dynamics of a game.

I agree completely with what you point out, although I would go even further and generalize this problem.
Imo this includes other cavalry aswell (imladris, wargs) but in a minor extend ofcourse than gondor knights with their formation.
Fact is, that cavalry is able to fight heads on against pikes, as long as they have atleast a 2-3:1 superiority in numbers.
(that is not a firm number because it depends furthermore on enemy-spells, enemy-heroes etc., but a good player knows when he can pick a fight with cav and when he has to run away and deal damage somewhere else). The rest of the reasons Goodfella points out well in the paragraph "harassing and mapcontrol"

So in the end I think gondor is the most extreme faction, in which the formation exponentiates the problem, but I think the fact that pikes don't do enough damage to cav in direct combat is the largest problem, combined with the surreal damage upgraded blades do to buildings.

Otherwise I agree with each of Goodfellas solutions, this issue need definitely to be looked upon.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Goodfella am 8. Mär 2017, 17:32
Yes, I think the problem can be generalized to other factions and that gondor is only an extreme example. isengard’s wargs are like gondor cav in late game especially if you get the steelworks and use the howl buff at the right time.

I think a big part of the issue is the initial trample, once the pikes are trampled they can’t attack and lie on the floor. Hitting the ‘s’ button whislt the cav is on top does an instant huge amount of dmg, potentially killing the battalion in seconds if it has no heavy armour. This is a problem for the pike battalion whether you have forge blades applied or not, a dmg boost is irrelevant if you can’t attack!

This problem is reduced somewhat if you have a big army clump, which works with swords (in combination with pikes) as the trample declaration can trap the cav on the clump. But as highlighted before this reduces your ability to split armies and successfully harass

However, I think forge blades on pikes does solve a lot of the problems vs the cav of most factions if you have more than one battalion of pikes. This is especially true vs cavalry that have low numbers of individuals per battalion. Charging imla cav into upgraded pikes can quite easily kill the battalion. The single unit cavalry, beorns and battlewagons are much more susceptible to pikes (upgraded or not).

This is part of the problem of having a battalion based army: the only real damage is killing an entire battalion. The pikes may kill half the battalion or even the majority but if one individual survives it is irrelevant. Imagine if it were a game like starcraft where the units are individuals, killing 6 of them would be a monetary loss but in this they regenerate for free. And expensive units like gondor cav regen just the same as cheap units like lorien pikes. How do you solve that problem other than increasing the dmg from pikes to cav battalions (not just individuals) to the point where charging into pikes gives a significant risk of losing entire battalions?

That’s the big problem with some cav, especially gondor - they have so much armour and so many individuals in the battlion, how do you kill them all? Really you only lose cav battalions if you forget where they are and they start a fight they will lose when you’re not looking, otherwise you can easily retreat them. Anyhow, more often than not, losing 1/2 battalions of cav is not gg for you anyway bcs of the advantage they have made for yourself.

Like you say in most cases, cav will win if more than 2:1 outnumber so should pikes get a big buff to cav? Of course, that’s got to be balanced too, I guess we have to decide who will win in what situation, like one battalion of upgraded lorien pikes shouldn’t be able to kill 4 bats of upgraded cav, but where is the line drawn? And what specific changes, if any, should be made to ensure that pikes are better vs cav (if it is agreed that is what needs to happen)?
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: koh11 am 18. Mär 2017, 04:00
This is part of the problem of having a battalion based army: the only real damage is killing an entire battalion. The pikes may kill half the battalion or even the majority but if one individual survives it is irrelevant. Imagine if it were a game like starcraft where the units are individuals, killing 6 of them would be a monetary loss but in this they regenerate for free. And expensive units like gondor cav regen just the same as cheap units like lorien pikes. How do you solve that problem other than increasing the dmg from pikes to cav battalions (not just individuals) to the point where charging into pikes gives a significant risk of losing entire battalions?

You make an excellent point. Why can't how healing works on Battalions be changed? From your post it seems how healing currently works is what makes the situation worse as its easier to re compensate even when you make a mistake with expensive unit.

I guess a proposal would be something like healing only heals your units to full health rather than re-spawning them when you are near a healing well? Or even an option to retrain a battalion for resources rather than the healing well or banner carriers just re-spawning them.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Captain Jin am 1. Apr 2017, 23:57
What if we increase the damage Gondor Knights receive from archers by about 30% and make Gondor Cavalry Shields reduce bow damage by 40%, replacing pike resistance?

Knocks out two birds with one stone, I think. Cavalry micro is aimed for archers, resource buildings, and isolated swordsmen as you said. Archers can usually get a volley off in attack-move before they are ran down, so simply increase said damage to where it may inflict a loss or two on the unit. Would also make protecting resource building a bit easier if you can send archers without worrying they'll get entirely destroyed. And while I'm not sure of the general opinion, I rarely ever get cavalry shields, as I don't often plan on sending my cavalry to charge into pikes (as strong as their resistances are). This change would make cavalry shields that much more attractive as an upgrade, fitting with Gondor's general play-style.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: -DJANGO- am 2. Apr 2017, 02:14
This argument seems reasoned. Gondor Knights cost 800, thus have also relatively hight default HP, plus the amor upgrade (which is already a good choice against archer damage). Making them a bit more vulnerable in their default setting against archer damage should therefore be fair.
Since the formation gives them already a buff against pikes, it makes only sense that their second counter (archers) gets a little better against Knights. Furthermore it would fit, that the late Upgrade "Cavalery Shields" on the other hand counteracts this second counter at last and not intensify their strength against pikes even more.
Your suggested values -30 % amor against archer damage in default setting but +40 % amor against archer damage through "Cavalery Shields" are in my opinion fine.
On paper that would give them at last +10% amor against archer damage - the Amor Upgrade not included.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Big F am 26. Mär 2020, 00:44
This is the Gondor subsection of my gameplay & balance post over at the general balance discussion thread.

Like Goodfella argued a 3 years ago, the Gondor Knights formation should not buff against pikes. While i like that elite cavalry forces out elite pikes, gondor knights suppress any army splitting since 3 or 4 of them crush any army with 3 or 4 standard pikes and then go home to heal back up.

Also Gondor's central spell seem extremely strong.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 29. Sep 2021, 20:39
I wanted to talk a bit about Rebuild. I find that this spell lacks any counterplay, you just drop it on a building, the building is fully healed and there's nothing the enemy can do about it.

I think Rebuild should be a heal over time that starts slowly and then ramps up over something like ~30 seconds. This would remove the last minute "save" that is often seen where a building goes from red health to fully healed and it would also telegraph your action to the enemy ahead of time. I imagine a visual indicator that the building is being repaired, so the enemy can decide based on their perceived strength, will they have enough damage to destroy the building before the healing ramps up?

This also opens up room for baiting, similarly to the way that you can bait a Man the Towers from a level 3 eco-building. The enemy can fake an attack on a precious building and pull back as soon as the repair is dropped, wasting the spell. In a way, this could also be seen as a buff, as a heal over time that means there's a chance for the heal to heal more than the max health of a building.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Seleukos I. am 29. Sep 2021, 21:16
I like that idea.
That would also fit the long term aspect of the left side of the spellbook, not giving an immediate profit, but taking a bit of time to fully pay off.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Halbarad am 30. Sep 2021, 01:06
I like it too
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Nightbringer am 30. Sep 2021, 09:17
Entirely logical, i like that  8-)
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Watcher am 2. Feb 2022, 17:08
Are there any plans to improve Aranarth's health? (From memory; at level 1, he has 1000 less health than Araphant, who is a support hero. At level 10 in his Heir form, he has only some 400-or-so more health than a level 1 Araphant. Araphant himself stands at 6500 health at level 10).

Or is there maybe a reason his health is so low? I never checked his Ranger form, but I assume its not much different.
Titel: Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 3. Feb 2022, 14:36
No. Compared to Araphant, Aranarth is also a ranged hero, which means less health in most cases - if anything, Araphant could get reduced hp because he really is a pure supporter.