Feel free to close this thread, or keep it open if anyone else wants to ask questions about the Misty Mountains faction.
I hope MM Gundabad subfaction appearance will be based on designs from BOTFA. However this will create a little contradiction between Angmar and MM. You see, there are orcs from Gundabad present in Angmar forces but they are weak and their movements are monkey-like (the same as basic Mordor orcs).I agree with this very much as im not a fan of the Angmar orc design.
MM's Gundabad orcs are descendants of those and they look entirely different. Harsh, strong and fearsome. But they bear the Iron Crown banners no longer, replacing them with symbols of bats. So it would be cool to give Angmar orcs the same model (excluding bat helmets) leave their stats untouched.
Personally, I don't mind the Moria buildings. They look pretty slick, Moria only had the ruins of Khazad-Dûm anyway, so I am not sure what the point would be of adding other captured buildings or something along those lines.
By the way, just a question, would all Misty Mountains Heroes be recruited from the Moria Tunnel, or would we have to get The Defiler from Gundabad, for example?
You're welcome :D I like to voice my opinion, so I wasn't going to just remove it, hahaha.
[...]each hero will be recruitable in its respective corresponding subfaction.
No, all heroes are recruitable in the citadels of the three Goblin factions. However Tom, Bert and Bill are only recruitable from the cavetroll lair which the player can build on the settlement plots.
We could use a similar system to Imladris, where we have say The Defiler pick up the Ring and spawn Smaug from it. Another idea might be to make the Ring Hero the Balrog and make Smaug an ultimate power, this would make a bit more sense IMO, because the Balrog at least is in the same area as Moria, whereas Smaug is half a world away and never directly associates with the gobbos.
This way, he would be still properly present in a game, being terribly awesome and powerful (while becoming OP with the Ring) but he won't be tied too much to the faction nor the Ring (and, if the match is played without Gollum and the MM player needs some extra power, he/she can still combine the might of Smaug and the Balrog, together with a huge host from the deep)
I have this complete concept in mind of how Smaug should have his position in the Misty Mountains, but it's quite extensive. Anyway I want share my thoughts on his levelling process.
In order to not have Smaug as a terrifically strong hero at the very start of the game, I wanted to suggest a unique levelling system: as the Goblins have to gain acces to three different realms before their full power is unleashed I thought it would be interesting to link Smaug's levels to the complete upgrading of those bases, i.e. by fully upgrading recruitment and resource buildings. In this concept I have found some interesting mechanics for this. The fourth building that completes Smaug's levelling process would be something that has to do with the special outpost for dragons/drakes.
By the way, thanks to DieWalküre. He suggested me this thread in my moddb comment. :D
Thank you for your response, TheDarkOne.
This supports my argument that the One Ring in itself would not be considered a treasure more significant than a golden coin in Smaug's eyes. Of course it would influence his potential greed and wrath towards any who would steal from him, but it won't stop Smaug from desiring to accumulate more wealth. I therefore feel that offering the Oner Ring to Smaug would not be enough to keep him on the battlefield, were such a temporary summon system be employed.
This extremely conceptual and lore accurate concept has received the appreciation of Ealendril and of many other users :)
Make Balrog AND Smaug powerful creatures with time limit that can only be summoned as tier 4 power point powers, but the ring removes the time limit completely.
Is there another disscussion about this...?
So, if Smaug is not going to be a tier 4 powerpoint power, what is the second 4rth tier power going to be (the first being Durin's Bane/Balrog)?
For the second 10 points or tier 4 spell, I was thinking of a rock avalanche. That could be a reference to the giants throwing rocks at Thorin's company when they where travelling through the Misty Mountains.
These mountain rock giants have nothing to do with the swarm of orcs. According to the film they are neutral natural beings. There is no need to create the 100% same spell for MM faction.
I had an idea, but I'm not sure whether to share it or not.
The Gundabad army summon spell looks very much like Isengard Unleashed.
Only if the gained advantage of using 4 tier spell is worth waiting and gathering PP to use it.
I think it would also represent the moment when Misty Mountains stop being a disjointed faction and become the unified army that marched against Erebor, their new elite units reflecting that.
I think it would also represent the moment when Misty Mountains stop being a disjointed faction and become the unified army that marched against Erebor, their new elite units reflecting that.That's actually what Bolg does with his recruitment and his abilities (as already presented). Gundabad is a subfaction of the Misty Mountains, so we won't include them in a summon or something similar.
Tier 4 spells are the Dragon Strike and the Balrog.
It was just a quick concept I made to give a general view of my ideas, if you feel anything can be improved, say it :P
I'd also like to add that I don't think Dragon Strike should be the counterpart to the Balrog's summon. It just feels strange, because, while it could be good gameplay wise, it hasn't changed since the vanilla game, and I think that with Smaug and the Dragon Outpost, there is enough Dragons in the Misty Mountains.
I think many aspects of that army can be represented with the spell, so it has a great value both conceptually-wise and gameplay-wise, that's why I like the idea of the "Legions" so much, because you can include a lot of the Hobbit trilogy Misty Mountains concepts without breaking balance!
Each hero respectively ranks up the recruitment buildings of their faction (f.e. Goblin king ranks up the Goblin town buildings, the Defiler ranks up the Gundabad barracks etc.). But in order for the buildings to reach rank 3, the player also needs to build Bolg. As Bolg is the unifier of the MM, he would rank up all the buildings of the faction.
I would keep dragon strike, it's much more intersting and unique than army summon.
i have 2 question when is the mm faction operationel ?
and maybe you heard this a lot but i am new here is there a change you be doing a campaine ore is that to much work ?
like in the first bfme there was a capaigne good/bad side
but like i said maybe that is to much work but could this be happening in the futere ?
Not so much unique, I would say. The faction can already dispose of a flying Winged Dragon capable of going around and wreaking havoc. And we're not talking about a generic (and quite lore problematical) Dragon, but about Smaug himself.
Hey there, I come up with idea about scout hero in MM faction. As we know so far the scout hero probably will be Yazeg from first hobbit. He is anyway the most non-lore accurate from all MM heroes and I thought about sth more "bookly". So why not to implement this big grey wargs' leader from book when thorin's company were surronded by wargs after escapeing from goblins. Yazeg's mobility would be saved, and another ( smaug, tree trolls ) hero would represent wild part of MM faction. He could even spawn small band of wargs which can help him to play more agressively ( which is MM's the main goal ) and in late game would get bonus for them and warg riders. Only one drawback is that he probably would be to similar to drauglin
:(
Well it actually is unique in the kind of damage this power does. Eventhough Smaug can shoot fireballs and even a fire storm in the form of a winged dragon, he is not able to fly over a certain area and set it ablaze like the Dragon Strike power does. There is no other power in the mod that can do this, so I do regard it as unique.
Now if Smaug were able to copy this power for himself, then I'd agree with you to replace the spell. I'd even suggest that Smaug could do this, because the strongest Dragon of the Third Age should cause more havoc than a regular dragon like the one from Dragon Strike :P. It would be awesome to have it as a level 10 power.
Edain Team said they didn't like the Movies' final Bolg design, that's why they used the original concept that ended being the Jailor on Dol Guldur. I think Yazneg has a bigger part on the first film than that wolf on the book, and in the Edain Mod, like Fredius said, he isn't Yazneg, he just has his design.
I hope Edain Team will make Smaug almost all powerfull, such an enormity on the battlefield that the enemy player will literally look at him in utter horror. And it would be worthy of spending a vast amount of resources.Well, since Smaug will be a permanent hero and probably cost 3000 (like other faction leaders) I don't think so. Then Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron etc. should be 'all powerful' too. But I hope he will be strong enough.
I hope Edain Team will make Smaug almost all powerfull, such an enormity on the battlefield that the enemy player will literally look at him in utter horror. And it would be worthy of spending a vast amount of resources.
In fact, by the production faction stage, i think patch 4.5 won't have Misty Montains :(
Will the "Siege" update come this year?
Have the units and heroes of Misty Mountain changed since this article was published?
http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two (http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two)
Will the Moria buildings be "decorated" with dwarven cadavers and destroyed shelves/tables or just the building itself ? :)
Also palantir pic or something from "Saruman Book" would be cool
Also palantir pic or something from "Saruman Book" would be cool
I literally love that image, and it always reminds me of that famous quotation of Saruman concerning Moria and its fate. It really contributes, along with the other elements, to create that sense of eeriness I was talking about. Nevertheless, I don't really know if that kind of picture could serve well as a spell icon (due to the size).
As for proper sounds, I don't know if there's a specific track when the Balrog is summoned, but I agree we should hear something a bit more characteristic and LOTR-related. That sequence is simply legendary.
Nice idea. I myself have always been fond of the trident we may see in FOTR, as I think it adds something more to the troll: a much cruel and definitely wilder touch, as the weapon itself seems to be an improvised tool (as if it were more appropriate for hunting, rather than the actual battle). Now, I don't know if a trident would be a tough eventuality to cope with, since there might be issues with animations. I'm nonetheless open-minded towards this possibility :)
This is probably unpopular opinion, but I would cross Smaug off from hero list. Monsters in BFME games are so hard to operate, they always trample, suffer huge damage, few animation bugs. They are cool but they really suck in game in general, from trolls -> olyphants -> to dragons. I would rather leave ring in Bolg's hands and use Smaug as huge catastrophy you can call on others - exactly as Dragon Strike from vanilla.
I do believe that having Smaug as a regular hero and even as Ring hero will cause more problems than help and enjoyment.
I really like your idea! I'd find Smaug fun to play and faithful to lore this way, even cooler if he said his quotes as he used his abilities "My claws are spears!".
The cost should be maximum 3000, because AI can't recruit Heroes that are worth more, that's one of the reasons that make me think he should only be recruitable after the completion of certain tasks, as was suggested before. This would help to make up for his (probable) OPness, and would be like Isengard's level 5 fully upgraded Uruks with Steelworks upgrades: A place of advantage enemies of the Misty Mountains can't allow them to reach.
If Edain somehow manages to get their hands on that gorgeous THL/AOTR Smaug, I could die a happy man. Maybe if we ask DúnedainRanger or Mathijs very nicely ^^.Me too man :D as I wrote a brighter red wouldn't be so bad. For the rest is perfect. It's simply the model I always dream for Edain mod. A perfect match between Drogoth body and Smaug shape.
If Edain somehow manages to get their hands on that gorgeous THL/AOTR Smaug, I could die a happy man. Maybe if we ask DúnedainRanger or Mathijs very nicely ^^.
As Julio rightly pointed out, heroes can't cost more than 3000 resources. A sort of rule that we may not defy. It's thus imperative that values be confined within that range. Also, if I remember correctly, there are gameplay-related reasons for that choice, given that the Edain Team didn't want to make any hero that expensive (and therefore effective), as it would happen in the previous chapters of the Mod's history. The 4.0 era is generally more focused on coordinating the different characteristics of each faction and on finding a holistic strategy (rather than relying too much on single features).
Regarding Smaug's design, I doubt that the AOTR Team would gladly agree with sharing such precious model, and I would totally understand their decision. We're not talking about a general unit or other secondary characters; I think their own version of Smaug is really the prime jewel of their own vision and impressive gallery, and every project is probably supposed to retain its own unique elements. Reversing the reasoning, it would just be like the Edain Team sharing their central subfaction-system of the Misty Mountains with another project. This consideration of mine is obviously set aside from the fact that I too would love to see that amazing concept in the game; hopefully, the current model will be overhauled or the Edain Team will create another anew (though extremely difficult it might turn out to be).
Feel nonetheless welcome to develop the discussion further, since we get closer and closer to the Misty Mountains with each day passing, even if that is a quite slow process ;)
I think the Smaug from Edain is good enough and detailed. I like this one more that the one from AOTR.Edain 4 deserves something more in my opinion. Anyway Of course we cannot force Aotr to give us their model. But is a good example of a 4 legs Smaug.
Back to Aules idea: I like your proposal about abilities, fit's perfectly. I would change Rank 5: “Dragon Sickness (passive) - I hope that ET will keep scavenger spell in MM spellbook and thus it will overlap. A small change and it's perfect.
I also agree that the design is really of secondary importance after the release of the faction. There is a model already which the ET have worked hard on so it does not bug out and looks unique. After all, they have chosen designs that were not directly implemented from the movie because they did not like those interpretations (thinking of Beorn and Grimbeorn here) so it may be they already find their 3.8.1 model good enough.
If at some point in the far future they feel inspired to take on this project they will have good reasons for it. But for now I don't see it necessary to wait for MM longer because some people want a new Smaug model.
There is a model already which the ET have worked hard on so it does not bug out and looks unique.
There is a model already which the ET have worked hard on so it does not bug out and looks unique.
I mean no offense, but isn't Edain's Smaug basically a red reskin of the vanilla summoned Dragon?
(https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/9/97/Black_dragon.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110814174332)
I personally do believe that an important hero such as Smaug needs a graphical overhaul as well, and I believe ET is capable to do it, but I do agree that there is no haste to it.
Ah, I suspected that the ever-green debate centred on Smaug's model would haunt this thread again xDI Apologize DieWalküre, I didn't want to start an eternal loop :D :D ahahaha
I was just rewatching Fellowship Of The Ring (as a matter of fact, it is paused at Lothlorien now :P), and while seeing the Cave Troll scene, I had an idea that I hope helps to spark discussion about MM again:
Cave Trolls only have their melee ability and rock-throwing ability, but... How about if, when Bolg is recruited and the Misty Mountains armies start to become organized, Cave Trolls unlock an option to either have the mace or the trident that we see in FOTR, earning new advantages if they unlock them, at the cost of their rock-throwing ability?
I've not made a deep concept, but I hope it can spark discussion!
I'm not very sure, but wasn't the trident an abandoned weapon in that hall, that Aragorn then wielded to hit the troll? If this is the case, the trident nonetheless belongs to Moria and could well be one of the troll's choices. Also, I know that this was the motive of BFME2, but raiding and pillaging others' warfare material/armoury is an interesting theme of the Goblins. The very structures of Moria are Dwarven buildings in ruin, captured by the Orcs.yes it was an abandoned weapon, but the only reason it even apepared in themovie, imho, was that Frodo had to be impaled since he had been by the Orc-Chieftain in the book.
yes it was an abandoned weapon, but the only reason it even apepared in themovie, imho, was that Frodo had to be impaled since he had been by the Orc-Chieftain in the book.
I doubt that the troll would normaly use a trident... why should he? Using the hammer he can deal farmore damage on a far bigger area... or with a tree he ripped out of the ground etc. the Trident really is a weapon I don't see fitting for a troll
I would find such property really interesting. As Aragorn says, that trident would have slain and passed through a boar. At least, this is what he says in the Italian version ;)
I think at least a level requirement should be good, to have that ability sort of come from the troll's improved ability to use whatever he can (more intelligence, I guess?). I'd be fine if it didn't have requirements, though, it's more about the options this can give to the player and the aspects of the Misty Mountains it reflects.
I quite like the vanilla Giant interpretation, but a Jötunn-esque interpretation would be cool, of course, and it would remind me of AoM so much :P I'd prefer the team to release the faction first and then decide if they want to change the unit, though, as it would require making a new model, texture and such.Yes in fact i love the models from Aom. Of course that type of model would need a a bit of restyle to fit best with the goblins. They are always children of Morgoth(even if is not so clear in the books), so they must have some so to say "horrid" elements in the design.
Ok, I find the idea of a requirement sound in principle. Maybe with the reaching of level 3?
Speaking about giants, I need make up my mind a bit. It's not that I would strictly stick to the vanilla interpretation, but I also find it hard to conceive another fitting solution. Mountain Giants from Age of Mythology look quite too much sophisticated for the context, whereas I always pictured giant-like creatures in Arda as hideous as trolls: not with a humanoid appearance (not too much, I mean) and with the usual repugnant characterisation. There's also the other typical wilderness factor that the current model embraces well, albeit being outdated. Anyway, should proposals arise, I would be definitely interested in following the debate :)
That's a smart thought! The kernel of that feature is indeed very akin to the pharaoh's blessing. Alas, the current ability is also flawed and, by consequence, the issue of replicas of the same hero in different castles is still persisting. Just like the New Realm upgrade of the Egyptians, that allows the player to play with two pharaohs at the same time :P
A bit off-topic maybe, but, one of the things that interested me the most was that AoM nod, it is one of my favourite games, and I always like seeing its influence in things. Erestor's system in 4.4, for example, has always reminded me of the Egyptian Pharaoh's resource-earning and buildtimes enhancement, a stationary and temporary version of it or something :P
Maybe a "soft" redesign can be done, making the Giant be closer to a hypothetical WETA depiction, but keeping the good aspects of the vanilla one. And that's true, its mouth looks strange :D
Son of Osiris was the best :P I think you could have two Pharaohs and the Son of Osiris if New Kingdom was researched, like DieWälkure said. The number of Erestors is increasing fast :D
Fair enough. I deem this solution an apt solution as well. Once we leave aside the whole grotesque touch of the Hobbit (of which trolls/giants were often the most evident symbol), we could indeed toy around with this initial source, and just the source I find very satisfying. So, if there's the will to craft something similar, I think we should start from this concept. A concept that has very little to do with mountain giants. Sorry, Aulë xD
In this case, if you are content of the result, I will bear this WETA concept and the suggestion about the trident in mind. Additional topics that enrich the wide collection of this thread. Needless to say, once we're ready to loosen the boundaries of our imaginative spirit for discussions on the Misty Mountains, I will create a list of any element of valuable note that was brought here to the general attention. In the meantime, we shall wait a bit still ;)
I would personally side with the cinematographic renditionWhich one? :D The LotR-cinematography or the Warhammer-Hobbit-cinematography? (Now it's obviously false to say the Hobbit uses this style exclusively, but the overdesign, overarmoring and overscaling of things is quite apparent. That's actually the thing: Watching some Total War: Warhammer LPs, I realized that the Hobbit movies partially but especially some more creative units from the Vanilla are heavily inspired by that fantasy setting. Stupid idea for the movie, great one for the game...)
Stone-trolls were a race of trolls in the service of Sauron. Not much is known of these creatures, except that they inhabited the Westlands of Middle-earth and that they spoke a "debased form of the Common Speech". It is possible that they were not actually living beings, but mere counterfeits made by Melkor, and they would return to their stone images once exposed to the light of the Sun.
Bert, Tom, and Bill — the trolls encountered by Bilbo Baggins and his companions on their journey to Erebor — were likely of this kind, as they spoke Westron.
Which one? :D
Personally, I know you all hate me to say it, but because of lore, I have always been in favor of Durin's Bane being a playable character for Misty Mountains.
As for PJ version which you used as a bases, I would say the Orcs acting terrified of the Balrog is natural and akin to Orcs acting afraid of dragons or nazgul. I think (we don't have the black speech like we do in the Hobbit), but I always felt that the Balrog was issuing a challenge to the Fellowship and the Goblins honored their lord by stepping aside. Basically "Let me handle this."I totally agree with you. Of course the Balrog didn´t rule the Orcs as a Orc-king would. I guess for him the Orcs are more of a usefull tool than anything. Alarming him when anyone dares to enter his realm, like the Fellowship did and helping him to take out his enemys for example the Dwarves.
However, Edain has already stated that Smaug is the faction leader, so why continue on this? Smaug IS the faction leader because that is what ET chose so the discussion on the Balrog vs Smaug is irrelevant, however, the facts speak for themselves and it is obvious that the Balrog would be a more canonical leader than Smaug. To where Smaug would be more of a summon under the command of Sauron.
Since Smaug was selected, and like Elf in Silver said, all Smaug cares about is Gold, I mean he wouldn't even use the One Ring, heck he didn't even sense it in the Hobbit book. Smaug cares about quantity and not quality he never gave priority to the Arkenstone nor any other special CUP or jewel, his attention to detail lacked and the only way he would fight and ally with Sauron is threw intimidation and gold.
EDIT: In reality, I don't mind Smaug being in the MM faction, but Smaug being a ring hero makes about as much sense as Tom Bombadil being the Ring Hero for Arnor or a faction of Hobbits and Unicorns. Both characters did not care about the One Ring and both would have just ended up losing it. As evidenced by the Arkenstone being right under Smaug's gold pile and nothing was done with the Artifact that supposedly crowns all and brings the Dwarfs together.
The balrog doesn't desire the one ring at all. There is no where stated that he want it and that he wants to use it on anyway. The Balrog is merely waiting to morgoth to return as a said so him making a ring hero seems just weird for he would never leave moria and fight for sauron.
As for the statement that the blarog is the ruler of moria, Where did you get that from. Ever since the goblins went into moria they had an orc as leader. See azog he was the leader of moria.
"Azog, known also as the Defiler and the Pale Orc, was an orc who lived in the Third Age. He commanded the tribes of Moria from TA 2790 until his death in TA 2799. "
"Azog then called out that he had killed Thrór , and that he now ruled Moria as king. His name in runes was carved onto the brow of Thrór, forever branding it into the hearts of the Dwarves."
During that time the blarog was already walking in moria so he wasnt the ruler but it was azog. And probley during the war of the ring the goblins would have found a new commander and king of moria which isn't the balrog.
We dont know who the leader is of moria during the war of the ring. If edain adds a leader in for moria goblins it will probley just be an orc and who knows what.
An the other hand smaug. He would be perfect for a ring hero, Smaug desires gold. What is the one ring made of gold. He loves gold. He would take the ring even if he doesnt sense the power of the one ring he would still take it because it is made of gold. And once he has it the ring will do his job and make smaug stronger with the power of the ring even though smaug never intended that. So smaug being ring hero isn't that weird
As far as Fredius's words about the Balrog's playstyle, nerfing, etc. Dagor Dagorath implements the Balrogs perfectly without much error, and I do have a counter for Durin's Bane and Smaug, it is called Silverthorn.
And Smaug who is the greatest and most terrible of calamities is nerfed and this does him justice. Okay Fred. Sauron is also from the First Age, Treebeard is from the First Age, Galadriel is from the First Age, Celeborn is from the FA, Cirdan...do I really need to go on? None of these are asked to be nerfed, nay, Galadriel and Sauron are asked to be upgraded, I even supported a post on that. So the bases for the argument of Smaug vs Balrog is gameplay, pure and simple because there is NOTHING in the Lore that states or hints that Smaug would be interested in such an artifact and there is more in the lore regarding the nature, history, and powers of the Balrog which would be suitable for him to be the faction leader.
In conclusion, you are all getting what you want even if it isn't canonical for Smaug to utilize the Ring or care about it. You guys get that plus the ability to play a dragon. Something you got to do in vanilla BFME2, ROTWK, oh and many other mods.
So despite the canon depravity and clear flaws that any true Tolkienist could point out the subject of Smaug staying and acting as a hero/Ring hero remains. So do it canoncially and I'll support it, if not canonical then I am against it as I have always been.
Aye, for the fact of not facing previous losses of might, the Balrog is the most powerful Maia in the Third Age. By the sheer measure of his own prowess, at least. Sauron has lost considerable amount of his magic, but he's indeed the mightiest threat in Middle-earth, due to him ruling massive armies, the foulest kind of creatures and a realm in general. I think that Gandalf was referring to this not so meaningless aspect. I don't believe he was picturing in his mind a direct confrontation with him, whose result would have been determined by sheer force. Confrontation that seriously risked to take place, when Gandalf visited Dol Guldur for the first time. Sauron, whom some deem pretty much invincible even with halved capabilities, was forced into flight by the sole perceiving of the wizard's arrival. And he was Gandalf the Grey. Leaving differences aside, all Maiar belong to the same order of Ainur and boast an akin level of might. And I'm not saying that one could not tower over another one, but the idea of the One Ring (an artefact of the Second Age) enhancing the majesty of a Maia in perfect state sounds quite absurd. Not that a Maia would not wish to seize the One Ring for himself, but there's not even the need for this to be. Like Eönwë wielding the One; which boost would you entail in this situation?
Ungoliant was a Maia. And the radiance of the Two Trees was renowned to be the grandest of the Valar's deeds, even greater than the ancestral Two Lamps. I don't think we can draw a comparison between the One and the Two Trees, as they encompass totally different themes and features. Together with the reference that it was made in regards of the Arkenstone: is the King's Jewel the material embodiment of a Maia's essence? Does it emanate evil influence? Does it grant magical power? By the way, Sauron's longing for his Ring and the menace which the situation poses are motives intertwined deeply with the Third Age, being LOTR immersed into the War of Wrath. An age in which the Balrog is completely something going beyond schemes. An age to which he does not belong much, unlike Smaug. Therefore, it's not three ages versus a sole one, in my opinion. And, with the utmost respect for Durin's Bane, hiding for millennia in forsaken caverns and lurking silently (more or less) in the creeping shadows of Moria doesn't seem to be very dynamic; I think that guarding the mines is more proper for his characterisation, in the context of the late Third Age (going back to the Elder Days is not of much avail, as that era ended for the good after the War of Wrath and the sinking of Númenor). Whereas Smaug appears more active, given his plan to take control of an entire kingdom on his own, coming from unknown territories of the North. As I said, he's much more in tune with the geopolitics of Middle-earth at that time, as Gandalf exactly feared.
I also fancy a lot the underlying motive of greed which Julio, Elf and Ody talked about. It surely tells something more; useful hints. And gold itself is, as a theme, profoundly connected with greed, in most of the literature that deals with desire and the yearning of things. An ever-green theme in mankind's knowledge. And, as a not appalling coincidence, the One Ring is made of gold. Purely and simply made of gold, without other ornaments. Without gems and jewels, contrary to the other Rings, to symbolise greed, desire and obsession. I guess its very shape, particular and apparently simple, was not without a certain meaning.
The Jewels are the radiance of the Two Trees themselves. When the Trees were poisoned by Ungoliant, they were the only thing that could have brought them back to life, as Yavanna wished and as she told the council of the Valar, with the breaking of their shape and the revitalisation of the dead ruins of Laurelin and Telperion. So, mentioning the Silmarils cannot go far from considering their source in the equation as well. By the way, it was not the Silmarils that made Ungoliant titanic and permitted her to come close to (if not to surpass) the level of a Vala, as she was able to bind Tulkas with her webs of darkness and of anti-light or dark light, which is not just the absence of light (darkness), but its very living nemesis. She got huge due to the life and energy she sucked out from the Two Trees. She never ate the Jewels, as the Valar feared in terror, lest they be made into nothingness. And Melkor prevented this from happening, betraying her. As for Eönwë, you got my point then: it's not reasonable that a Maia in perfect state would ever long for the One Ring (which is honestly a lesser artefact for the Ainur).
And, regarding Tolkien Gateway, I am familiar with that explanation too. But that sounds more as a speculation, as ours are. It states that Sauron could be absolutely unaware of the Balrog even existing in Moria in previous times. While the presence of Orcs and Trolls might be explained with my previous hypothesis: the Balrog tolerates their presence, as long as they don't result in a cause of disturbance. It's quite different from saying that he then disposed of a structured and loyal army. As you can see, it's mostly a matter of speculations still. It's not that we want to indulge in speculating; it's more that we can't get away from them :D
Anyway, I don't want anyone to feel frustrated by potentially tedious arguments that belong to the Prancing Pony section. They're certainly not tedious for me, but for other people might. I reckon the debate might cause us to go round and amok in search of lore-related reasons. If Blue doesn't mind Smaug being the Ring hero of the faction, then it's totally fine. May the development of Isildur's ideas go forward :)
Anyhow, I would continue with your idea Isildur, it is a good one, I like the fact that you are dedicated to the lore and tolkien's work as I am. I always appreciate a real Tolkienist.So do I ;)
Any ideas about other ultimate 10pp spell for MM? I had a thought to be able to summon bats that cause darkness that debuffs all enemies on the entire map temporarily. This was also clearly described in the book just as the battle of the five armies starts. Thoughts?
As for some critique; I feel like there will be a slight problem with the resources that are spawned when the Dragon Lair gets destroyed: if it gives a huge amount of resources, the player would just build the lair and then manually destroy it, take the money, and rebuild it again. So if this system were be able to be implemented, then I would just have it spawn the same amount of resources as a creep Dragon Lair.
Also I honestly am not a fan of the spellbook power that unlocks Smaug. It feels kinda weird to have to spend a whole spellbook power on him, and THEN still have to buy him for 3000 resources. I would personally just have him be a permanent hero through the Ring, that would make his Ring mechanic even more unique
Many thanks to you, gentle Aulë. Seldom do I not behold and sense your ever-burning passion whenever I go through your thoughtful concepts. And, speaking about those bonds you mentioned on ModDB and the great care one pours into it, your proposals simply exemplify your noble endeavour for what you deem valuable in the game. Accept these words of praise of mine and to my response hearken: I am more than happy to give you consent (as if you need it) for the opening of a new thread, which is to be guided by nothing else but your personal judgement. I thus entrust to you the task; were you to doubt, don't hesitate to ask for counsel. I shall leave my comment at a later time :)
As i read in the old articles, the team want to make Smaug recruitable without the necessity of the One Ring. Smaug with the ring would be only a more improved version of it, both speaking about powers and drawbacks (greedy for example).
I think is reasonable to make him more ring-independent, because as i know in multiplayer matches usually the ring-heroes are not used. Would be a pity if the player cannot exploit the full-power of Smaug in multiplayer matches.
I also thought about a possible central spell of MM with a 5-6 of cost, that generally improves caves (dragon,trolls,etc) with some upgrades. In this perspective, the unlocking of Smaug could be included in such spell (without any other influence on the dragons), avoiding the waste of a total spell only for him. A central spell that is the gathering of the complete power of the horrid beasts, which are the very soul of the faction :)
The fact that the player need to also unlock some spell to have access to smaug, goes towards balance, since he will be over the average with respect to other heroes.
I find this a good solution. If the team wants to make him a permanent recruitable hero without the Ring Hero mechanic, then this is the idea that I agree on. You have my vote anyway xD.
Well, I fall short of words in the expression of my first impression regarding the concept: it is simply bloody brilliant and marvellous!
I really like the ideas you have behind Smaug, however like many others I do have a problem with the tribute system.
At the beginning of the game Smaug will be available in the Dragon Lair, with the following summoning system, depending on the level of the structure:
One last question: which one of the two via-spellbook implementation do you like the most? The stand-alone or an including in the central spell? The last one is probably most compact, and avoid the use of an entire power only for him (considering also new spellbooks having one less spell with respect to the old ones). But the first one could be much more iconic if it includes, together with Smaug, other minor fire breathing dragons. Of course both are sticked to the gold-desire content :).
Note: Thematic wise it might be better if the dragon's lair offered economic upgrades instead of unit upgrades as well to fit the whole Dragon's greed theme as well.
One last thing, I am not a big fan of his Dragon Sickness ability because it buffs enemy buildings. Personally I think it would make more sense if it was just a copy of the Hillman's pillage ability where Smaug gains resources from attacking enemy buildings to symbolize his desire for taking the wealth of others.
What do you think?
Here's an idea I have for the tribute system. What you could do is have Smaug level up each time you summon it, the more gold you spend the faster he gains experience. So you are encouraged to invest in Smaug early. Of course you can add a cooldown timer so players can't abuse the mechanic. By the time you buy Smaug as a permanent hero he will be near max level.
As you may have surely read in the articles that were published until the present moment, the point of central spells is that they are supposed to embody pivotal themes of each faction.
Aule this has been BY FAR the best MM idea yet man! Great Job! I personally agree with everything you proposed and it is very canonical. I agree somewhat with Fredius that 3000 and a power spell seems like a lot, but given his destructive power, I think it is needed. All in all, I AGREE with your concept for what it is worth.
I would like to see Smaug somehow become a permanent hero and I think your idea addresses this. So I think we should go with that as that makes perfect sense. Again, phenomenal job!