Modding Union

[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Discussion and Feedback => Thema gestartet von: bookworm1138 am 9. Apr 2016, 04:35

Titel: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: bookworm1138 am 9. Apr 2016, 04:35
This is wholly speculation based on what has been revealed about the Misty Mountains faction. Obviously the Edain Team is busy with the 4.3 bug fixes to worry about new factions, but curiosity has gotten the best of me (and my brother, who's also a fan of the mod) and I just have to ask and the General Suggestions board doesn't seem the right place for this question in particular:

My question is two-fold:

1) In the Factions post (found here: http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32638.msg428786.html#msg428786 (http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32638.msg428786.html#msg428786)), it says that the Misty Mountains will keep the Mountain Giants from the standard game. I don't know if this has been answered before, but will the team keep the standard game model of the Mountain Giants or use the rock-like Shadows of the Colossus models from AUJ? (pictures of each in the spoilers)


2) The main feature of the Misty Mountains faction is their ability to build tunnels to the other realms practically anywhere. With this in mind, will the camps/outposts be used at all?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Gnomi am 9. Apr 2016, 08:23
1.) We don't like the giants-version of the movie at all. They don't fit in tolkien's world and we won't add them.

2. Yes, we already wrote something about that in our news.^^
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: bookworm1138 am 9. Apr 2016, 16:07
Thank you  :)

Feel free to close this thread, or keep it open if anyone else wants to ask questions about the Misty Mountains faction.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 10. Apr 2016, 23:41
Feel free to close this thread, or keep it open if anyone else wants to ask questions about the Misty Mountains faction.

I think we could keep it open, as a place to gather in all the questions or opinions that people might want to share out of curiosity about the Misty Mountains  ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Glorfindel23 am 5. Sep 2016, 22:35
One question : I've seen that two model of Azog on modDB.

New model :
(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/11/10679/thumb_620x2000/TheDefiler.jpg)

Old model :
(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/11/10679/thumb_620x2000/schaenderneu_1383128108.jpg)

Will you keep this texture for the new model or copy the old texture on it?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 6. Sep 2016, 11:52
They will keep the new texture and new model. The old model/texture is obselete.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Glorfindel23 am 6. Sep 2016, 18:35
Ok thank you!
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Sep 2016, 03:50
I personally think that this thread could be a concrete opportunity to collect useful ideas, feedback and opinions regarding the forthcoming Misty Mountains faction, whose particular design undoubtedly makes it an innovative wind of fresh air for the whole Edain Mod; all of this combined with its reference to the cinematographic adaptation of the Hobbit and, at a minor extent, to the iconic Moria sequence of LOTR that we are all very familiar with  ;)

Whether it be here or in future suggestion threads that I or others might open, there are aspects of valuable importance that are certainly worth debating about: above all, in my opinion, Smaug and the Defiler (Azog's counterpart in the Mod).

But, since the 'Misty Mountains season' of wait and discussion has not officially started and given that we don't have yet a complete overview of the final portrait (it's not even known if the faction will be released with the next major patch), I would say that we had better be a bit patient for a while still and may I invite all the people interested to do so. Bearing also in mind that the official news concerning the Misty Mountains was published more than year ago, and that many significant changes that involved the other factions have taken place in the meantime (additional and pivotal ones more are probably likely to see light in future updates too).

As the faction will close the chapter (not the last one, I hope) of the main plan for Edain 4.0 and, coincidentally, will find its founding roots in the Hobbit (with BOTFA closing the cycle of PJ's six-film saga, in the good and in the bad), I just wanted to express my personal view, as a Moderator, of the positive occasions that may come in relation to possible fruitful debates; the kind of debates which always benefits the Mod's development and the entire forum greatly  :)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: TheDarkOne am 8. Sep 2016, 13:56
I hope MM Gundabad subfaction appearance will be based on designs from BOTFA. However this will create a little contradiction between Angmar and MM. You see, there are orcs from Gundabad present in Angmar forces but they are weak and their movements are monkey-like (the same as basic Mordor orcs).

MM's Gundabad orcs are descendants of those and they look entirely different. Harsh, strong and fearsome. But they bear the Iron Crown banners no longer, replacing them with symbols of bats. So it would be cool to give Angmar orcs the same model (excluding bat helmets) leave their stats untouched.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: calsash am 8. Sep 2016, 15:10
I hope MM Gundabad subfaction appearance will be based on designs from BOTFA. However this will create a little contradiction between Angmar and MM. You see, there are orcs from Gundabad present in Angmar forces but they are weak and their movements are monkey-like (the same as basic Mordor orcs).

MM's Gundabad orcs are descendants of those and they look entirely different. Harsh, strong and fearsome. But they bear the Iron Crown banners no longer, replacing them with symbols of bats. So it would be cool to give Angmar orcs the same model (excluding bat helmets) leave their stats untouched.
I agree with this very much as im not a fan of the Angmar orc design.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Sep 2016, 19:31
As far as I know, the Gundabad subfaction will indeed be mostly based on the Hobbit (as pretty much the whole faction). What is exactly not clearly known yet is how much of BOTFA is to be implemented; the very news that concerns the Misty Mountains was published before the actual release of the film. So far, it's been officially stated that the Gundabad fortress' design won't be part of the faction as the Edain Team didn't like it very much (I quite share the same opinion) and didn't deem it appropriate enough for their own interpretation.

That said, not so much has been revealed about units and heroes, as it would have objectively been too early for such indications. Henceforth, as I made it clear in my previous comment, it's still a bit premature to immerse ourselves in major debates of this sort; the Misty Mountains are not in the Betatesting phase yet. Things had thus better take their needed time. I'm nonetheless very pleased to see that the interest, apart from obvious reasons, is more than alive! I assure you that debating these and other prominent matters will be my personal onus  ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 8. Sep 2016, 20:35
Weren't the Angmar Gundabad Orcs not renamed to just Angmar Orcs, and therefore don't belong to Gundabad anymore?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 8. Sep 2016, 23:54
I'd like to propose again an old idea of mine: the design of Moria buildings

While I completely agree with the fact that Moria Goblins should be the starting Orc realm for the Misty Mountains, and I love the design developed by the team, I think it's terribly nosense that the buildings of the Goblins of Moria are ruined versions of Dwarven buildings. Why this? For two main reasons:

1. Having Goblins infesting ruined Dwarven buildings is an awesome idea. Atleast, in maps actually related to the Dwarves (the Caradhras, Eregion, and so on). But, if you're playing on maps like Eastern Rohan, or The Shire, why the heck should the Dwarves have built a castle/camp in there, only to have it be destroyed and infested later on by Goblins?

2. If we consider that's the style of the Goblins of Moria, why should they copy the design of the Dwarves, but ruining their buildings? (they shouldn't even have their 'architectural' skills) Wouldn't it be more logical if they had their own design, which is more fitting on neutral maps?

So, here's my proposal: On maps related to the Dwarves (like the above mentioned Caradhras, High Pass, Ered Luin, and so on) the Misty Mountains will start with a ruined Dwarven camp as their main base. However, on all the remaining maps, the Misty Mountains will start with the same units and heroes, but their base will have the design of the standard Goblin faction from BFME 2 (it's a similar, yet different, mechanic of Arnor maps. In these ones, Arnor completely replaces Gondor. In Dwarven-related maps, the Misty Mountains will have a "Moria-style" base rather than their default style, but keeping units, heroes and spellbook unaffected)

So what happens to the Gundabad Outpost? Rather than using the default Goblin design from BFME2, it can have a completely new style (maybe based on the movie version of Gundabad) OR their buildings can be a mix between Goblin structures and Angmar ones

This way, the Misty Mountains will have an even more unique system, yet remaining canonical to the lore
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Sep 2016, 01:41
I completely disagree with you, DrH. The reasons are multiple and encompass various aspects. I will summarise them to make it all simpler.

1. The kind of system you proposed is objectively too ossified and complex to adapt to a Mod with these standards. We are not talking about some map features or exceptions as Arnor; this is an entire structured and canonical faction to deal with, characterised by recognisable distinctive and unique traits as all the other ones. Having different designs depending on selected maps would 'ruin' the very conceptual unity of the faction itself and complicate everything without any real need that justifies this. Why would you ever make things complicated when they are already quite fine-tuned at the moment?

2. The main reasoning underlying your proposal is, in my opinion, quite naïve, if we take into account the basic gameplay requirements of the game. It would undoubtedly be a reasonable argument if we were to view things in a very purely logical perspective; but I'm afraid it doesn't apply to the common and usual context. For example, I could also question: why does Lothlórien start with luxuriant forest-castles or forest-camps in hostile (in a geographical and physical point of view, especially) maps as Mordor or Mount Doom? Can't we have (I'm inventing) a burnt/marred design when it comes to this sort of environment? The same could be said about Rivendell's holy sanctuaries and Gondor's mighty fortresses. This logic is just too dry to be even slightly manageable in practice.

3. The central heart of the Misty Mountains is the Moria subfaction for prominent reasons: the known iconic reference to the now legendary Moria sequence of the Fellowship of the Ring, the ordinary Goblins stick exactly to PJ's early interpretation (which I think is absolutely superior to the one of the Hobbit trilogy, in spite of the respect I have for the latest trilogy, and an absolutely coherent transposition), the Balrog lies dormant in the deepest caverns of this lost realm and, although set in the Hobbit timeline, this subfaction is the closest of the three to the War of the Ring timeline that most of the factions follow. Nevertheless, the faction will anyway contain mostly Hobbit-related content and I thus hope more improvements will be pursued in this direction; but I guess the 'supremacy issue' among the three souls of the Misty Mountains is undeniably tied to Moria due to the points exposed above. Nothing would ever capture the entire dark, eerie, dreadful and ghoulish essence of the Goblins better than Moria's cinematographic rendition  :)

4. Connecting to the third point, the graphical design of Moria was exactly fashioned on those canonical and iconic premises, recreating the ghostly 'tomb' about which Boromir talks (the very colour of the buildings has been darkened to resemble even more what we see in LOTR). The fact that this once prosperous Dwarven kingdom is now swarmed by packs of wicked Goblins is well displayed by the current representation and it couldn't honestly do more honour to this race's true nature.

5. I had the feeling that the Gundabad subfaction is portrayed more as the gathering of the Defiler's hunters, embodying thus a wandering motive different from the major characteristics I listed in the previous passages. I also don't like very much the vanilla design of BFME2, as it reminds me of how loose and flawed the Goblins were back in the day (with little consistency and even less adherence to the lore or to the films). Therefore, I sincerely believe, if we really were to choose the hegemonic subfaction out of the three, I would rather opt for the new, unique, innovative and very Edain-ish Moria  8-)

P.S. It's really interesting to notice how this faction manages to put me in an unusual good mood. Don't misunderstand me though, my awe is primarily due to firm contempt towards such nasty creatures; in addition, the fact that many grotesque sides of BOTFA will hopefully be explored properly is a favourable scope for hoping that other eerie aspects of the same film will be considered as well...  ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 9. Sep 2016, 02:04
I love having a thread for Misty Mountains! It will probably be my favourite faction, so I hope this thread is used a lot to discuss it!

I agree with DieWalküre on the Moria topic, the Dwarven-Infested buildings and the Moria scenes in FOTR are way too iconic for the Moria Goblins.

I didn't dislike original BFME2's Goblins concept, but it is true that it didn't truly embody the dark and even mysterious feeling that Moria Goblins have. It will be great to see so much variety in Misty Mountains. From the even humorous Goblin-Town goblins to the mysterious Moria ones, and even maintaining the vanilla design for buildings in the Gundabad subfaction!

I believe I don't have to say it, but Misty Mountains is the faction I've been waiting the most for!
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 9. Sep 2016, 04:11
The short answer is basically: Way too much effort for too little gain. I'm afraid we are going to have to deal with it. Personally, I don't mind the Moria buildings. They look pretty slick, Moria only had the ruins of Khazad-Dûm anyway, so I am not sure what the point would be of adding other captured buildings or something along those lines.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: denny31x am 9. Sep 2016, 05:13
I know misty mountain faction its still in progress
But i curious how ring hero smaug can be recruited without the ring so i got an idea

The suggestion is this
Make a smaug unavailable until u completed a few tasks (like the way necromancer leveling up)
So u need complete few objectives to able recruit smaug

But i still dont know what will smaug got if it got the ring
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 9. Sep 2016, 05:44
I sort of like that idea because having a Mass Slaying Dragon costing only 3000 (which is the maximum) is somewhat overpowered IMO. Starting with 4000 resources (Which against AI is key to success), you can get a Dragon and still have 1000 resources while you destroy the enemy forces. It would also fit with Smaug's character, I mean, he is not allied with the Goblins, so they would have to attract him to ally with him, and he is greedy, so it would fit. In 3.8.1, his system reflected his character really well, but made him too expensive to use. I think he should have some requirements, but not a lot, so you would have to wait but he wouldn't be like in 3.8.1.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 10. Sep 2016, 01:36
Personally, I don't mind the Moria buildings. They look pretty slick, Moria only had the ruins of Khazad-Dûm anyway, so I am not sure what the point would be of adding other captured buildings or something along those lines.

I in fact regard that design as almost perfect for the purposes and role that Moria is expected to fulfill in the general faction. I too couldn't really see the point of asking for a change. This is probably one of the most unique pieces of the Edain Mod.

Regarding Smaug, I would say that 3000 resources are well enough for the leader of the faction (being this the maximum cost in the game for such prominent heroes). I assume he won't immediately be able to dispose of his full potential at the very initial stage, so that the player won't have any possibility to maximise its advantage while the dragon-hero is still at low levels. Smaug will nonetheless be an ordinary hero of the faction, meaning that he's unlikely to turn out to be unreasonably powerful (something that may instead be applied to the Balrog, given his situational nature). That said, the idea of Smaug being fully operational only from a certain amount time (or after completing some tasks, or even after buying a specific upgrade) kind of intrigues me: it might be a valuable conceptual feature to differentiate Smaug from all the other heroes of the Edain Mod (as Sauron's iconic 'death mechanism'). What worries me a bit, though, is avoiding complex and unnecessary solutions that would otherwise slow the game down and make everything too much intricate.

Nevertheless, the sort of differentiation which I referred to above could be a solid sound ground to start interesting proposals from. For example, just another hint at the matter, I'm thinking about a possible 'dual essence' of the leadership of the Misty Mountains: that is, leaving the military leadership of the faction in the Defiler's hands (the just occasion to implement his BOTFA commander-like armour?) and stressing, on the other hand, the characterisation of the winged dragon that relates to destruction, might and his own solitary existence (primary status that is already displayed by the fact that he's the Ring hero). This would thus ensure that Smaug be the real ultimate weapon of the Goblins (preserving his independent spirit), without any risk of forcing him to fit in the faction in what would be a quite unnatural role (as the military general of all); in the light of this perspective, acquiring him later in the game would go in the above-mentioned direction even more.

These are just drafted ideas that I came up with. Feel free to comment them or give other insights on alternative concepts  :)

P.S. One of the main reasons of these suggestions of mine is exactly the wish, that I always held in high consideration, to give each leader of the factions a very unique characterisation; something even more innovative than their already much clever abilities and designs. I'm absolutely conscious of the difficulty of such bold goal, but I really believe it's a challenge worth being considered  ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 10. Sep 2016, 01:38
I agree with what you have said, having that kind of dual leadership of the faction would reflect the situation in a great manner, and I think it fits that Smaug is treated differently from most 'Leader Heroes' because of his actual situation, like he is not actually a leader of the Goblins, he is his own entity and is in his own 'side', so to speak.

By the way, just a question, would all Misty Mountains Heroes be recruited from the Moria Tunnel, or would we have to get The Defiler from Gundabad, for example?

Edit: I also like that P.S. idea! I too believe that Leader Heroes should have something to make them feel even more unique. I feel this is done in a great way with Sauron and Aragorn, for example, but if even more of their characterization can be reflected in game, that would be perfect.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 10. Sep 2016, 01:47
First of all, thank you for having posted again your own considerations; I was browsing the General Suggestions board and that thread, at the top of the others, tricked me a bit. I also appreciate the fact that you share similar views.

By the way, just a question, would all Misty Mountains Heroes be recruited from the Moria Tunnel, or would we have to get The Defiler from Gundabad, for example?

I'm probably not the most appropriate person to answer you (other Beta Testers have already played with the Misty Mountains in the earliest Betas), but, as far as I grasped, each hero will be recruitable in its respective corresponding subfaction.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 10. Sep 2016, 01:57
You're welcome :D I like to voice my opinion, so I wasn't going to just remove it, hahaha. I also like seeing that someone else shares my views on things!


I like the fact that they are recruitable in their own subfactions, it helps the feeling of the three different Misty Mountain realms and their variety a lot, in my opinion. Just having Tom, Bert and Bill suddenly coming out from Moria would be strange :P
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 10. Sep 2016, 02:16
You're welcome :D I like to voice my opinion, so I wasn't going to just remove it, hahaha.

It's because I was about to delete it myself and edit my comment via inserting your response. You thus spared me some minutes of moderating activity  :P

By the way, just to use a bit of the Elves' cryptic advices/riddles, if you are willing to debate further aspects that relate to the leaders issue and then sail to proper harbours for such proposals, I will give you a little hint: look at my forum signature VERY carefully  xD

Goodnight  ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 10. Sep 2016, 02:45
I'll do it, goodnight!  :P
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: TheDarkOne am 10. Sep 2016, 13:02
 I dont think that Smaug shoud be recruitable since the beginning. He has nothing to do with MM and orcs. Still, the idea of him being the ring hero is nice. As some of MM units found the One Ring they will bring it somewhere and within some time the dragon will fly over there sensing something gold and precious. He will not fight for MM, he has no actual reason to do so if they cannot give him something. But as they give him the ring they can make a temporal deal.

 Building a treassury and bringing a ring there is a cool idea, knowing of Smaug's passion (or whatever you want to call it) for gold and jewels. And having a great dragon on a battlefield means a certain victory. Again, if there is no random poor archer recruited "for free" who can kill Smaug.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 10. Sep 2016, 13:08
We could use a similar system to Imladris, where we have say The Defiler pick up the Ring and spawn Smaug from it. Another idea might be to make the Ring Hero the Balrog and make Smaug an ultimate power, this would make a bit more sense IMO, because the Balrog at least is in the same area as Moria, whereas Smaug is half a world away and never directly associates with the gobbos.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 10. Sep 2016, 13:18
I think Smaug should be part of the main Heroes of the faction, though with requirements to get to him that reflect his greedy character and that he is not part of the Goblin Army at all. He fits being the Ring Hero, but I don't feel like he should be only recruitable by achieving it.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 10. Sep 2016, 13:58
[...]each hero will be recruitable in its respective corresponding subfaction.

No, all heroes are recruitable in the citadels of the three Goblin factions. However Tom, Bert and Bill are only recruitable from the cavetroll lair which the player can build on the settlement plots.

I personally love the idea of Smaug having a few conditions before he can be built, so I agree with Julio about this. Smaug never would never fight for someone else, unless it benefits him, so I think the player should really make sacrifices in the form of offering units, money, etc., and building certain buildings, to please Smaug, and ultimately enable him for recruitment.

Furthermore, I just hope the Gundabad Orcs can get this armor as their Heavy Armor upgrade, together with the corresponding weapons:

Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 10. Sep 2016, 14:18
I love that armor concept!

Personally, I envision Misty Mountains as a faction based in uniting an army under one banner instead of them always being under that banner. I mean, I like the idea of uniting a great army (like The Defiler had) with so many variety of troops, unifying the Orcs of the Misty Mountains, how all of the evil of the north was united marching against the forces of good under one banner... I think Smaug having requirements further helps that feeling, as you will just not be recruiting it, but having to lure him with requirements to make him help you, as you have to do with Goblintown and Gundabad, making tunnels for them instead of being readily available. I don't know, Misty Mountains always gave me that "Have to unite the Misty Mountains' Orcs to win" feeling.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 10. Sep 2016, 16:06
No, all heroes are recruitable in the citadels of the three Goblin factions. However Tom, Bert and Bill are only recruitable from the cavetroll lair which the player can build on the settlement plots.

Thank you for the clarification  :)

We could use a similar system to Imladris, where we have say The Defiler pick up the Ring and spawn Smaug from it. Another idea might be to make the Ring Hero the Balrog and make Smaug an ultimate power, this would make a bit more sense IMO, because the Balrog at least is in the same area as Moria, whereas Smaug is half a world away and never directly associates with the gobbos.

The Balrog had better remain a spellbook feature, in my opinion; that's the perfect implementation in the game as it suits his very situational nature (situational as his appearance in LOTR) and prevents his whole potential from being unjustly underpowered, should he be made an ordinary hero or a nonetheless stable Ring hero (it would really be a pity seeing him underperform even slightly, compared to his usual standards). Also, the implementation via the spellbook has always been enough effective and iconic since the very first BFME1.

I wouldn't really see the Imladris system fitting for this context either: the fact is that I don't really mind Smaug being an ordinary hero of the faction, because his presence ties together the whole Hobbit atmosphere underlying everything and he's objectively the most awaited character by the Edain Community. What I believe should be the right path to stick to is exactly trying to come up with some restrictions or different mechanics, enabling him to act normally in the Misty Mountains environment while being quite detached from the Goblins' structured design and military leadership. He would thus truly be an unpredictable destructive weapon.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 10. Sep 2016, 20:46
I also think that Smaug shouldn't be normally recruitable, because it would be far too powerful, and he's not even related so much to the MM. However, I don't think that making his appearence be based on the One Ring only would be fair. If a match is played without the Ring (and most, if not all, the matches online are played this way), the MM player wouldn't have access to Smaug at all. So, here's my solutions:

1. As Julio proposed, there could be some steps to be done to recruit Smaug. However, this isn't a too fitting solution, to me, because, while Sauron WANTS to make his realm more powerful, Smaug doesn't give a damn. And also, this system is already used for Sauron

2. Restoring his old 3.81 tribute-system, but with some alterations: if the MM player wants to recruit Smaug, he/she can purchase some tribute carts from the Passageway of Gundabad and bring it to the Treasure Trove. This will cause Smaug to appear for a medium period of time, but with ALL his skills. When the Ring is found, should Smaug be able to get it, (other than receiving his proper boost) he would stay on the battlefield for the rest of the match (even if he's killed: his desire to reclaim it would be high enough to fight for the Misty Mountains)

This way, he would be still properly present in a game, being terribly awesome and powerful (while becoming OP with the Ring) but he won't be tied too much to the faction nor the Ring (and, if the match is played without Gollum and the MM player needs some extra power, he/she can still combine the might of Smaug and the Balrog, together with a huge host from the deep)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: TheDarkOne am 10. Sep 2016, 20:58
This way, he would be still properly present in a game, being terribly awesome and powerful (while becoming OP with the Ring) but he won't be tied too much to the faction nor the Ring (and, if the match is played without Gollum and the MM player needs some extra power, he/she can still combine the might of Smaug and the Balrog, together with a huge host from the deep)

Totally agree.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 10. Sep 2016, 21:19
I really liked his tribute system in 3.8, and I actually imagined one or two tribute carts being one of the steps necessary for Smaug's recruitment, and it could work solo!

I like both ideas, either having different steps including tribute or making him accessible only through tribute until he gets the Ring would be cool and fitting.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 10. Sep 2016, 22:16
DrH's input seems to be really interesting. That system would certainly fit Smaug better than Sauron's aspirations of dominion over Middle-earth; that's because it's all centred on the great motive which is at the heart of the faction and Smaug himself: greed.

In a conceptual point of view, this proposal is theoretically more than valuable and well justified for all the reasons we have collected so far. Much also depends, though, on the intentions of the Edain Team and if they are really willing to retrieve the tribute mechanics, transposing it with the due innovations into the new Edain 4.0. As I also wrote in my previous remarks, we don't even know very much about which elements they intend to overhaul (or if they want to overhaul something in the first place). Anyway, I'm really pleased that we are debating these issues and thus creating ground for positive discussions.

When we get official news, I guess we should be able to conceive precise concepts in the suggestion boards. For now, we should continue our activity here, in this quite general thread (as its very title indicates)  :)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 4. Okt 2016, 18:51
I have this complete concept in mind of how Smaug should have his position in the Misty Mountains, but it's quite extensive. Anyway I want share my thoughts on his levelling process.

In order to not have Smaug as a terrifically strong hero at the very start of the game, I wanted to suggest a unique levelling system: as the Goblins have to gain acces to three different realms before their full power is unleashed I thought it would be interesting to link Smaug's levels to the complete upgrading of those bases, i.e. by fully upgrading recruitment and resource buildings. In this concept I have found some interesting mechanics for this. The fourth building that completes Smaug's levelling process would be something that has to do with the special outpost for dragons/drakes.

This way Smaug will remain of low level in the first half of the game, until enough resources have been spend on upgrading the Goblin bases, as if they were some kind of lair. Smaug will thus be more willing to share his powers in service of the Goblins of the Misty Mountains. Additionally his recruitment could be tied to the special dragon/drake outpost but that might mean that in some battles he's only recruitable till late in the game.

I also have some ideas for Smaug as the Ring-Hero of the Misty Mountains. I think it would be interesting to tie his powers (damage and armour) to the amount of resources a player has, that is the more resources, the stronger he gets. This would represent his exaggerated greed because of the One Ring. The supersizing certain characteristics of the races in Middle Earth has been the base of the Dwarven Ring-Heroes, so I believe this could be a unique implementation of yet another faction's Ring-Hero.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: TheDarkOne am 5. Okt 2016, 01:14
I have this complete concept in mind of how Smaug should have his position in the Misty Mountains, but it's quite extensive. Anyway I want share my thoughts on his levelling process.

In order to not have Smaug as a terrifically strong hero at the very start of the game, I wanted to suggest a unique levelling system: as the Goblins have to gain acces to three different realms before their full power is unleashed I thought it would be interesting to link Smaug's levels to the complete upgrading of those bases, i.e. by fully upgrading recruitment and resource buildings. In this concept I have found some interesting mechanics for this. The fourth building that completes Smaug's levelling process would be something that has to do with the special outpost for dragons/drakes.


 He won't be available from the very beginning cause he will definetely cost a high amount of resources. The faction won't be able to summon him due to the need to gather resources and goblins will quickly spend them on structures and units, so his levelling system can remain basic. However I like your idea of linking him somehow to the dragon or drake lair on an outpost. But to a certain degree - Preventing Smaug from levelling up is a strange idea. He is not essential to the MM, being just a Dragon who may fight for an immense amount of treassure.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 8. Okt 2016, 15:12
Thank you for your response, TheDarkOne.

In the first place, I want to clear up what I meant with the levelling system linked to upgraded buildings. This is meant to make Smaug a much less useful hero at the beginning of the game because the Misty Mountains camps won't be upgraded fully yet. This means Smaug can be recruited for the maximum amount of resources (3000) from the very start, but without investing in Goblin buildings that increase the treasure hoard Smaug would more eagerly appropriate, Smaug is barely efficient for his price. This links the personality of a dragon to the necessity of a big hoard of gold which it can defend.

In the second place, I don't think the One Ring would suit Smaug as a treasure in itself. It's quite difficult to draw a line between what Tolkien and Peter Jackson have portrayed in their versions of The Hobbit. I want to give the example of the Arkenstone. In the film this artifact is the principal reason of Thorin's dragon sickness and consequent downfall as King under the Mountain. Nevertheless being the greatest treasure in the whole mountain, Smaug sees it nothing especially worthwhile. In fact he would like to give it to Thorin to see it consume him. His stance towards this treasure is understandable because it only signifies the position of an heir of Dúrin to rule the rest of the Dwarven realms; to a dragon, this means nothing. It is arguable whether Tolkien ever wanted to put so much emphasis in a dramatic interpretation of The Hobbit, however I do think it is a valuable extrapolation of the lore.

This supports my argument that the One Ring in itself would not be considered a treasure more significant than a golden coin in Smaug's eyes. Of course it would influence his potential greed and wrath towards any who would steal from him, but it won't stop Smaug from desiring to accumulate more wealth. I therefore feel that offering the Oner Ring to Smaug would not be enough to keep him on the battlefield, were such a temporary summon system be employed.

I hope this furthers the discussion, as is always necessary with such great topics.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: UdunPlayer am 8. Okt 2016, 18:16
I hope smaug get a model based in the movie design, but with dragon body (4 legs, 2 wings) instead of wyvern body (2 legs, 2 wings). I posted a comment on moddb saying that it would be cool if the edain team could use the DunedainRanger's smaug, asking of course permision. Here some pics:


I know Edain team make their own models, but I really would not like to see the old 3.8.1 smaug model. Instead, something like dunedain's model would fit the mod's philosphy of taking the best from both movies and the book. The old 3.8.1 Smaug just doesn't fit in the newest versions of the mod anymore in my opinion.

By the way, thanks to DieWalküre. He suggested me this thread in my moddb comment.  :D
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Okt 2016, 23:17
By the way, thanks to DieWalküre. He suggested me this thread in my moddb comment.  :D

Many thanks to you, on the other hand, for bringing the topic here to open discussion. And welcome to Modding Union as well! In light of the recent happenings taking place on ModDB, it has certainly been a wise choice to have moved here and the Edain Community will thus be granted the chance to debate in a more proper place  :)

Well, where to begin, I personally already stated in this thread my wish for a new model of Smaug, alongside other graphical and conceptual overhauls aimed to stick even more loyally to the whole Hobbit motive we all appreciate (I hope) very much; other great changes have already seen light during this and last year, and they were exactly meant to provide the Edain Mod with more unique and Hobbit-ish additions. Just to mention two significant ones among them: the new Iron Hills models and Thranduil's silver armour. Therefore, as the current known official news concerning the Misty Mountains came out almost three years ago, I believe there will logically be needed improvements to make before the final release and Smaug ought to be (in my opinion) included too.

The Misty Mountains shall be the last chapter of the Edain 4.0 plan. A grandiose plan that has most importantly transposed everything into the initial BFME1 mechanics and permitted great concepts from the Hobbit to find their place in the game too, on the footsteps of the end of PJ's six-film saga which exactly dealt with Middle-earth. Given that this faction will be the most Hobbit-based one of the Mod, who, if not Smaug, deserves to be the greatest possible as all the other splendid concepts from the Hobbit trilogy? The 'leader' (a particular type of leader, as we convened in the previous passages of this discussion) of the Misty Mountains is in fact one of the most prominent characters of the trilogy and the valuable motive of those films consequently underlies him all.

Regarding the model itself, as you wrote it, it's simply a very clever compromise between the cinematographic rendition of Smaug and Tolkien's four-leg concept; the latter was also the concept which WETA initially came up with, before opting for a wyvern-fashioned design. This feature (four legs) thus resolves the lore issue at the root of the matters and avoids the need of a new animation, something that would result in a very daunting task to achieve. So, yes, I'm fully for a new model of Smaug characterised by graphics more accurate towards what we watched on the big screen (his malicious face, his smile, his eyes, his smile,...). With all the due respect for the current one, a new model (entirely made, hopefully, by the Edain Team) would eventually do the right justice to the Edain 4.0 era.

That said, I once again make clear that this kind of proposals is not really common to manage, for it's easy to conceive ideas in theory but not so in practice (even if animations are not involved). Furthermore, we always have to consider that there are people with the legitimate opinion that graphical aspects should not have a so major role in the game and should thus remain secondary compared to other ones. Nevertheless, what expressed above is my pure view of things and I really hope it will finally get real someday, regardless of the time it would take. There are other magnificent suggestions in this forum whose main intention is exactly exploring deeply the valuable sides of the Hobbit trilogy, in line with the premises I illustrated above; this one is totally one of them  ;)

P.S. I edited your comment to make the images easier to handle.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: TheDarkOne am 9. Okt 2016, 18:41
Thank you for your response, TheDarkOne.

This supports my argument that the One Ring in itself would not be considered a treasure more significant than a golden coin in Smaug's eyes. Of course it would influence his potential greed and wrath towards any who would steal from him, but it won't stop Smaug from desiring to accumulate more wealth. I therefore feel that offering the Oner Ring to Smaug would not be enough to keep him on the battlefield, were such a temporary summon system be employed.

Now I get your point and I have to agree with it. The Ring wont be anything but a shining golden coin. However he still is considered as an upcoming ring hero for MM, so  we have no choice but to watch as everything develops by ET. They may create something fitting. I am almost sure of it.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 10. Okt 2016, 21:21
Just wanted to say, I've just finished rewatching The Hobbit trilogy for the hundredth time or so :P. They have flaws, especially BOTFA, but I like them anyways! I really want to see Misty Mountains in the mod now, I just love Goblins!

What I wanted to discuss are certain aspects of the Goblin Army in BOTFA, and I wanted to ask: Is anything known about what aspects of the BOTFA army are being included in the faction? As strange as some of them are, I love a lot of what was portrayed there.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Canis carcharothias am 10. Okt 2016, 21:50
There is an old article about the units of the new Misty Mountains faction:

http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two (http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two)

Maybe is a little bit outdated, It won't be a surprise if they add new units from BOTFA. I, personally, don't like some of the concepts, but if we leave aside the ram-troll and the "Frank-Milleresque" elements, I can be happy  [ugly]

(http://media.comicbook.com/uploads1/2015/03/bofa-stumpytroll04-abaker-128973.jpg)

For example, it would be interesting to see some relatively big bats, with models reminiscent of the fellbeasts, acting as unique, small and nimble aerial units. Quite a nightmare if you don't have archers.


Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 10. Okt 2016, 21:59
I know, some of them are just too grotesque! That troll from the image, for example :P.

I had read that article before, it seems we're getting a good fair share of the Goblins in the movies, and I don't think that concepts have changed a lot, they were already made in a great way! (Besides model improvements, and giving Hobbit Wargs to the Gundabad Riders, I believe they were changed to be that way, and I like it!)

Big bats like the Gundabad ones would be great, as they already were a power even in vanilla Goblins, and they can be made bigger!

Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 10. Okt 2016, 23:05
The official news concerning the faction came out almost three years ago; it's consequently reasonable and desirable to think that there will certainly be some changes, as for all the other factions before. Particularly, I too believe there are still some concepts from BOTFA that would do fine in the game. If I grasped correctly, Fredius already addressed an interesting topic related to Gundabad troops.

Yes, those mauled zombie-trolls are the quintessence of the grotesque motive underlying the whole Hobbit trilogy. The Community has expressed multiple times its wish to do completely away with those concepts. Therefore, in other words, I assure you they will never be a part of the Edain Mod, as long as it remains a rational universe characterised by precise boundaries  :P

The big bats darkening the skies that we both read about and see in the Hobbit (books and films) were already dealt with when we discussed weather spells. Particularly, in line with the idea of each faction disposing of a weather spell based on its essence, the Goblins will summon great clouds of bats that will darken the sky and bring darkness to the battlefield. This extremely conceptual and lore accurate concept has received the appreciation of Ealendril and of many other users  :)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 10. Okt 2016, 23:17
I'm always fine with changes and I like them, at least I hope the basic building system for MM hasn't changed, because that is in my opinion the most iconic feature of the upcoming Misty  Mountains!

It is certain that a lot of aspects of the BOTFA Goblin Army are grotesque and strange, but I think some like the Trolls that appeared (Not the stupid Ogres, but the ones with helmets are such) were not that bad, but nevertheless, Misty Mountains, whether it has some BOTFA concepts or not, will surely be awesome!
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 10. Okt 2016, 23:59
We'll see what the future brings and which changes are indeed to be implemented in the game. As I often pointed out, the Misty Mountains is the most Hobbit-based faction in the game and it therefore has the formidable potential of exploring even more what is worthy of being explored in BOTFA. Alfrid, Hilda Bianca, ninja-like Legolas and even those abominations resembling trolls will never convince me of the opposite  ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 11. Okt 2016, 00:05
Same! Can't wait to see news of Misty Mountains, and discover what the team has got in store for them!
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Canis carcharothias am 11. Okt 2016, 00:51
Zitat
This extremely conceptual and lore accurate concept has received the appreciation of Ealendril and of many other users  :)

Included me, now that I remember; that concept was fantastic, and just forgot about it. I think I'm a little bit senile...  xD

I'm sure the team will deliver, they've done a terrific job balancing canon and non-canon to date.

PD: Death to Alfrid.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: esparado87 am 11. Okt 2016, 16:00
Make Balrog AND Smaug powerful creatures with time limit that can only be summoned as tier 4 power point powers, but the ring removes the time limit completely.

Is there another disscussion about this...?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: samael am 11. Okt 2016, 16:29
it would be better that the balrog should stay as normal hero and smaug as ringhero the reason why is simpel the balrog was already in khzaddhum he is durins baine and instead as the normal balrog ore you can make it a ring hero than  let it be gothmog the lord of balrogs he who wields a axe instead of whip whit special powers powers not known already cause gothmog was the lord of balrogs his might was bigger than sauron it is a suggestion of me but i think you have some ancient heroes that are worthy to use in a mod i hope this was useful keep up the good work guys
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: kmogon am 11. Okt 2016, 17:29
I just refer you to proper page for thing like this:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,33098.0.html
Additionally I can say that probably barlog will stay sa a spellbook's power and Samug would be the most expensive hero in EM
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 11. Okt 2016, 18:06
Make Balrog AND Smaug powerful creatures with time limit that can only be summoned as tier 4 power point powers, but the ring removes the time limit completely.

Is there another disscussion about this...?

As far as the topic is concerned, we already discussed similar matters on ModDB and here too, along with some defined information we have at disposal (despite the natural scarcity of hints of possible improvements for the future). Smaug will be the leader of the faction (conceptually, at least) as an ordinary hero (and Ring hero too), while the Balrog will be available via the spellbook as an ultimate spell, in line with this character's extremely situational nature in LOTR and with his iconic presence in the BFME series from the beginning.

By the way, all discussions related to the Misty Mountains are gathered in a general thread (https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,33098.msg434818.html#msg434818) for now, waiting for more proper times to deal with proposals very specifically. There, we started addressing some valuable points that could indeed serve as a sound basis for future major debates. If you are willing to participate, you will be much welcome  :)

I will merge this thread with the general one mentioned above.

P.S. Referring to your post, samael, dead heroes from the past that either lived in the First Age and in the Second Age or even in the Third Age won't be implemented in the game, apart from very justified exceptions. The Edain Mod is mainly set during the War of the Ring and the Hobbit. It would be really illogical to just randomly add characters from totally different timelines, especially if these said characters are dead or have journeyed to the West. Gothmog was killed by Ecthelion of the Fountain in the tragic events of the Fall of Gondolin: there is thus no reason why he should be in the game, not even via any sort of particular mechanics (as the Last Alliance spell of Imladris).

--- MERGED ---
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: samael am 11. Okt 2016, 18:13
yeah thats true you got a point there i didnt know that edain is following the movie and story line thx for the answer
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: esparado87 am 11. Okt 2016, 23:00
So, if Smaug is not going to be a tier 4 powerpoint power, what is the second 4rth tier power going to be(the first being Durin's Bane/Balrog) ?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 11. Okt 2016, 23:58
So, if Smaug is not going to be a tier 4 powerpoint power, what is the second 4rth tier power going to be (the first being Durin's Bane/Balrog)?

I couldn't really tell. There are other Beta Testers who already tested the faction, but we're talking about more than one year ago (at the very initial stage of the Misty Mountains and of the Edain 4.0 itself). I guess they could answer you more exhaustively anyway.

According to the official news, the other ultimate spell is (if nothing is modified) the one of the 3.8.1 version: the fire dragon landing momentarily in a given area and wreaking havoc with its fire. Nevertheless, I assume there will be changes regarding these aspects as well; it's a pretty consequent implication that the presence of such spell might result in being redundant within the faction's structure, as both fire and dragon-motive already are at the heart of Smaug's existence.

If my previous speculation is somewhat valid, it could be an interesting occasion to discuss some alternatives meant to replace that spell and to explore other sides of the Goblins' universe.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: UdunPlayer am 12. Okt 2016, 07:13
For the second 10 points or tier 4 spell, I was thinking of a rock avalanche. That could be a reference to the giants throwing rocks at Thorin's company when they where travelling through the Misty Mountains. The power could also have some sounds from the movie's stone titans... sorry I mean... stone  "giants" (there you have the best of the movie and book philosophy). What do you think?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: TheDarkOne am 12. Okt 2016, 13:13
For the second 10 points or tier 4 spell, I was thinking of a rock avalanche. That could be a reference to the giants throwing rocks at Thorin's company when they where travelling through the Misty Mountains.

These mountain rock giants have nothing to do with the swarm of orcs. According to the film they are neutral natural beings. There is no need to create the 100% same spell for MM faction.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: kmogon am 12. Okt 2016, 13:24
And what about wargs' summon. We know that in books these two armies was goblins and wargs, so implementing them in similar way like last aliance or uleashed power spells  would be fitting. I was thinking about plundering too couse in my opinion it's very powerfull power  now and only some factions has it in leadership style( if it would be added ) .
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 12. Okt 2016, 13:30
Wargs will be in the faction as the mounts of Gundabad Hunters, I think. I don't really like the Avalanche idea because it would be too similar to Angmar's Avalanche in my opinion, and I think another aspects of the Misty Mountains can be used for that. I had an idea, but I'm not sure whether to share it or not.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Okt 2016, 13:51
These mountain rock giants have nothing to do with the swarm of orcs. According to the film they are neutral natural beings. There is no need to create the 100% same spell for MM faction.

In addition to this, the Edain Team once stated that they didn't particularly like the concept of the stone-giants of AUJ and they are thus not interested in bringing it into the game.

I had an idea, but I'm not sure whether to share it or not.

Feel free to share it. I have some ideas too  :)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 12. Okt 2016, 14:04
I was thinking about the Nameless Things that roam beneath Khâzad Dûm, but they never had any sort of connections with the faction, so I wasn't sure if it was worthwhile to share it. Nevertheless, I think they are a mysterious part of Tolkien's lore, and I think they could be interesting to have in game.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Okt 2016, 14:49
It's a very interesting topic. I have to say that I'm not quite sure about what kind of role those creatures might ever have in the game though. The Nameless Things are said to be absolutely mysterious entities dwelling in the obscure depths of Arda; via Gandalf's words, Tolkien tells us that not even Sauron exactly comprehends their nature. We are also told that they are even older than the Dark Lord himself, even though I regard this statement as quite contradictory to the lore guidelines codified in the Silmarillion, which rightly have the Ainur as the oldest ones among all physical creatures (given that their very age can't be measured and anything made of matter was initially conceived in thought in the ancestral context of the Timeless Halls). I nonetheless accept the fact that some very primordial beasts could have existed since the beginning of Arda without the Ainur being completely aware of that. It's perfectly possible and there are many of such cases in the lore.

That said, it's plainly obvious that we are provided with nearly nothing concerning the Nameless Things' appearance, properties and exact powers. Alongside this extreme lack of information, we have to face another conceptual issue, that involves gameplay equally: the whole idea of summoning a dreadful remnant of a past age (alien to the 'common' environment of the Goblins) is already well represented by the Balrog. Simply said, the Maia is an ancient demon that had been lurking in the shadows until his manifestation in LOTR. Having another spell that feeds from those same premises would be quite redundant.

My idea was centred around the possibility of exploring Azog's (the Defiler's) commander-like side in BOTFA even more, maybe with the arrival of special reinforcements (legions) from Gundabad (of which some could consist of the armoured trolls mentioned previously). Nevertheless, opting for this typology of spells is quite simplistic in the end. I hope more contributions will be given during the debate.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 12. Okt 2016, 15:04
I like your idea of having an army from Gundabad as the other tier 4 spell, it would fit the faction quite nicely, and it has in fact more relation to the Goblins than the Nameless Things!

If the Nameless Things are to be considered, though, it is said that they gnaw the world, and remembering the Were-Worms from the BOTFA film (That in the books were thought to be a legend, and live in the Last Desert), and the general Goblin feeling, I think that they could be Tunnel Makers in a sense, giving you the ability to make four tunnels anywhere in the map (except in bases, of course). It would use the iconic tunnels for the Goblins, and bring together some concepts both from books and films (the Nameless Things opening tunnels for the Legions of Gundabad to come to the battle).

The concept of the Nameless Things could even be mixed with your idea! How about being able to use the Nameless Things to open a tunnel that spawns Gundabad reinforcements (The Azog army of your idea)? I think it could be interesting and would make it different from the other Tier 4 summon spells.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: TheDarkOne am 12. Okt 2016, 16:19
The Gundabad army summon spell looks very much like Isengard Unleashed. Nameless things are too mysterious and obscure beings to be applied into the game. More importantly, they care little what happens above (obviously).
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: kmogon am 12. Okt 2016, 17:37
And what about implementing BOTFA's command centre - I mean that thing on raven's hill. It would be summoned pernamently ( a big signal fires' like stone with horn and that wodden thing on the top ) which grants choosen leadership to goblins on whole map ( feg. 20% damage OR 10%dmg, 10% arm OR 20% arm ) or does other bonuses, like exploring big part or whole map or giving choosen damage bonuses to structures or uints .
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 12. Okt 2016, 17:41
I like that too! It would bring an aspect of BOTFA's Army I really liked, and would be useful to make the Goblins (Which I expect to be more of a swarm army than a powerful one) battle with the strength of Late-game factions.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: UdunPlayer am 12. Okt 2016, 19:14
Well, my idea of the avalanch was only to summon big rocks falling at enemies, not the summon of a stone titan's model throwing them (let's face, in the movies they were just to big for giants, were more like titans haha). However, the roaring sounds of those giants would be cool only for the sake of giving the power a great sound. But looks that we won't seem something like that power become real, cause as DieWalkure said edain team is not interested and they don't like the stone giants concept. I don't like that concept for the mod too, that is why my idea was only to have the rocks falling in the battlefield.

Now, the idea of BOTFA's command centre is really good, that thing would need to give really good bonuses for all units in the battlefield considering we are talking of the second 10 points spellbook. Or maybe it could have an own palantir with many orders that affect all units in battlefield, in the movie that command center was moving along with Azog's orders. What abilities and effects will be in that palantir, I'm not sure, but they have to be "orders-related". Also, aesthethically, it would be a nice thing to see in-game.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Okt 2016, 19:35
The Gundabad army summon spell looks very much like Isengard Unleashed.

Not so much, I would say. The same thing could be said in regards of the other factions' summoning spells (the Last Alliance, the Rohirrim, the Ents,...). The very summoning motive is something naturally recurrent in pretty much all spellbooks; what really makes the real difference, in my opinion, is the content of those spells. I thus would never see the general idea of summoning troops as a lack of differentiation.

I like the suggestion of Julio, according to which Nameless Things would have the subtle role of allowing the sudden storming of Gundabad hordes, without the need to specify further graphical or conceptual characteristics of these said creatures. Nevertheless, the obscurity of the lore in reference to them is still something challenging to deal with: it's very likely that Nameless Things, despite their natural dangerousness, are completely neutral and not willing at all to side with this or that faction.

In light of what has been pointed out so far, the strategic device used by Azog and his legions in BOTFA seems to be the most feasible solution. It might also balance the spellbook itself: the Balrog spell fashioned on the iconic sequence of LOTR and the other ultimate spell on the last chapter of the Hobbit trilogy. I find this a very even and just perspective under which we can develop more structured proposals.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: TheDarkOne am 12. Okt 2016, 21:17
There's no point in summoning an army of Gundabad orcs who are basically 100% weaker than elves or uruks summoned via their respective spells. Only if the gained advantage of using 4 tier spell is worth waiting and gathering PP to use it.

The insane unit recruitment speed allows MM to continuously attack an enemy by wave after wave. This also allows them to recover the forces quickly even if they were completely annihilated.

There is no need for a quick army summon. Misty mountains could get enourmous mobility by summoning controllable wereworms, able to dig anywhere on the map (including the fog of war). And the cave could remain permamently (because something simillar but temporary already exists in the form of goblin sappers).
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Okt 2016, 22:24
Only if the gained advantage of using 4 tier spell is worth waiting and gathering PP to use it.

It's quite obvious that, if we really were to conceive an ultimate spell, this spell won't summon any kind of generic units nor weak meat shield to randomly throw against the enemy. That's why I hinted at the possible inclusion of armoured trolls or some sort of elite units that otherwise wouldn't have the chance to be part of the faction (I guess the very word 'legions' really gives a sense of more advanced warfare than simply pillaging or storming in waves). A spell which is worth waiting and fighting for.

The Edain Team has already made it clear that they didn't like BOTFA giant worms either, deeming them quite grotesque: they are thus not going to implement them.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 12. Okt 2016, 22:31
I agree with DieWälkure, this wouldn't be a regular summon, it would have special elite units, and I agree about the Armored Trolls. In my opinion, it would differentiate itself from the other summoning tier 4 powers thanks to having better units than what the regular faction has, and they would be quite unique because of their way of spawning. I think it would also represent the moment when Misty Mountains stop being a disjointed faction and become the unified army that marched against Erebor, their new elite units reflecting that.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Okt 2016, 23:41
I think it would also represent the moment when Misty Mountains stop being a disjointed faction and become the unified army that marched against Erebor, their new elite units reflecting that.

A very significant aspect this is. A momentary feature which might give that sense and enable us to explore a bit the potential of the Defiler as a commander (the theme characterising him in BOTFA, while having had the role of a hunter in AUJ and DOS). All of this could be achieved via clever mechanics, without altering the main conceptual foundations the Edain Team wanted this faction to be endowed with (speed, aggressiveness, a loose approach and unpredictability).

I really appreciate the way the discussion is being led: we are addressing very pivotal issues, referred to a defined context and so connected with each other. May the debate continue fruitfully  ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 13. Okt 2016, 11:19
Zitat
I think it would also represent the moment when Misty Mountains stop being a disjointed faction and become the unified army that marched against Erebor, their new elite units reflecting that.
That's actually what Bolg does with his recruitment and his abilities (as already presented). Gundabad is a subfaction of the Misty Mountains, so we won't include them in a summon or something similar.
Tier 4 spells are the Dragon Strike and the Balrog.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Okt 2016, 12:07
Tier 4 spells are the Dragon Strike and the Balrog.

Don't you think there is an issue of differentiation and uniqueness regarding this choice?

I believe Smaug should be made the only major dragon to focus on in the faction, for the series of reasons we have discussed so far (his fundamental role in the Hobbit trilogy, the fact of being a Ring hero, his potential as an exceptional hero and so on). Having an ultimate spell based on that same dragon-motive would not be very much unique, in my opinion. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, hasn't the Dragon Strike basically remained the same since BFME2? I totally understand why the summoning of the Balrog has the absolute right to be kept in the spellbook (it's an iconic legacy from BFME1), but, for the other 4-tier spell, I guess we could come up with a new concept.

Another aspect. We were previously debating about the nature of Smaug's leadership in the faction's structure. Since the direct allegiance/connection between creatures as Winged Dragons and the Goblins themselves can sometimes be problematical, wouldn't an ultimate Goblins-based spell resolve those problematics and balance all the different souls of the Misty Mountains? That is, finding a balance among Orcs, Dragons, the Balrog and the other monsters; alongside the scope for additional innovative solutions.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: TheDarkOne am 13. Okt 2016, 20:40
Sounds cool. You could develop that idea of levelling him up by collecting treassure or whatever. This could eventually inspire ET to apply this. 8-|
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: sgtryan88 am 14. Okt 2016, 06:52
Hello everyone !

First of all, sorry for my bad english,  Im from Brazil and Im learing it yet.
Im using this experience to learn more about this language, so patience :)

I searched for Smaug on the sugestions page and didnt get any return, so i started this new topic.

As all we know Misty Mountains will introduce a new faction, with his own mechanics.

1 - Smaug's power.

In the Hobbit film, Smaug its a very powerfull, feared and formal dragon, I think edain mod have to keep his qualities, so the team need to make him a POWERFULL UNIT.
So powerfull that can defeat every hero from mod easily.

2. Smaug's atrracting system.

Smaug needs a complicated sytem, because its a very powerfull unit.

2.1 The treasure room.

The dragon its attracted by gold, so on the Misty Moutain fortress the player can buy a treasure expansion, where, it will able you to save gold to attract  Smaug.

2.2  Collecting gold.

You need to buy gold from a resource building and when you do it, a cart will spawn, so you can send it to your Fortress, every cart can supply your Treasure room with a limited amount of gold.

2.3 Smaug's gold fever.

When the treasure room is full, an option can be unlocked in the fortress, where smaug will appear to get the money, and the treasure room will be emptied.

2.4 Smaug's spawn mechanic.

Smaug can be shortly used.

2.5 From Ring mechanic.
When Azog or other unrevealed ring hero get the One Ring, a palandir spell can be unlocked.

2.6 Sauron's Corruption Words.
On this unlockble palandir spell,  through the One Ring, Sauron can do an enchantment, that will corrupt Smaug to One Ring's power, and he will be slave of him.

2.7 Smaug The Corrupted.
Now Smaug is under the influence of One Ring, and can be controled like a permanent unit.


3.1 Smaug characteristic.
Can walk or fly.

3.1.1 Walking
Can use his teeth (physical attack).
Can use his tail (physical attack).
Can gush fire on his enemies ( magical attack).

3.1.2 Flying
Can attack like a Fearbeast from Nazgul (physical attack).
Can gush fire on his enemies ( magical attack).
Can use his wings like a hurricane effect (magical attack).

What do you think about it?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: kmogon am 14. Okt 2016, 08:09
If you realy search for MM related sections , you miss sth very important ;) . Try share your idea here:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,33098.0.html
Additionally smaug's concept was already mentoried ( I know that 3 years ago but it's still the only one which we have ) :
http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Okt 2016, 11:09
Simply said, I will merge this topic with the discussion thread related to the Misty Mountains, so that sgtryan88 won't have to type everything again.

--- MERGED ---
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 16. Okt 2016, 03:18
My idea
Well before i say a im just worry about balance (it can just take to long) cuse u choose Balrog or alliance with Dragon.
Goblins will be 3 kingdoms so none of them theoretically should be able to build Treasure trove in thier outpost.Treasure Trove should be build in outpost (ex. Imladris fortress in Arnor faction).Treasure trove will have bigger scale than have now (because is build on outpost).
General Idea
Player have 3 tier spell from spellbook and want is ready to get 4tier spell Balrog or alliance with Dragon? Balrog advantage/disadvantage:
Ally with dragons advantage/disadvantage:
Player can build Treasure Trove and Tribue Goblin with gold in citadel.When u have Treasure Trove build u can instantly summon Smaug.Player can control him but none of his abilities is avivable.
Warning this part is harder because Edain Team need to decide if Smaug will be temporary on early or we can have himpermamently.
I will make both possibilities.
Smaug Permamently
Smaug debuff monsters and on top of that scary units .None of Smaug abilities are avivable.
Player need from Citadel recruit Tribute Goblin with gold and take this gold to Smaug The Terrible and like {like archers going to tower (cursors to put them into)}.
After this act Smaug lvl up and u can use some of his early abilities and will have stats improved. Repeat this as long as he get level lvl 10. You need more like 5 tributes.
Tribute Goblin in this some time can be only one 1 on battefield and is recruit in 60s.
Smaug temporary:
Smaug can be summone on battefield but you have him on battlefield only 60s. After his time limit end Smaug vanish.When u click on treasure trove building you will see recharging Smaug summon .This spell take veeeery long to recharge .To make this shorter you need tribute goblin and take him to treasure trove building.With every number of goblin tribute building lvl up with limit to 3 . Similar to angmar system leveling up building.You need 2 tribute goblins to lvl treasure trove to lvl 2 .With this recharge spell to summon Smaug again  will be shorter and he get lvl 5.To get Smaug lvl 10 you need 3 tribute goblins.Treasure trove will be upgraded like in vanilla game .Building on lvl 3 more health points and u get small creep dragons protecting building.When treasure trove is on lvl 2 Smaug is on battefield 180s and when on lvl 3 he is permamently with all of his abilities.

My another idea is when MM faction get released Dragon Lair get removed from neutral and  become as buildable in settlement for MM after player get spell Alliance with Dragon.For sake of balance player can only build 1 building like this in this some (for 300) and 1 Fire drake and 1 baby drake will protect that .In this Lair of drakes player can buld Kaldrache flying drake limited to 3. not good ? Player in this building can buy 3 baby drakes . Those drakes can level up and grow up and have level up system like in 3.8.1 .I final stage they can fly.But of course we know they will be weak vs archers and abilities.
You ask why i want to get rip off Creep Drakes ? I can answer .When MM get released they need good ultimate spell and this is some addition to Alliance with dragon.I am not sure if MM get possibility to summon Creep Lair so i think it would be resonable for them to summon only goblin lair and troll lair .

Looking for Feddback
Peace
(http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/11/10679/umoj34x6.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/07/09/52/0709529063282b3d58f2cbbb5549a8ed.jpg)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 17. Okt 2016, 08:02
I tried to come up with a quick concept for the Tier 4 spell, based on the idea of having the Legions of Gundabad appear from tunnels made by something (maybe the Nameless Things, but the problem with their allegiance still stands).

"Legions of Gundabad"

"Summon the armies of Gundabad to destroy your enemy."

When it is activated, The Defiler's Black Tongue quote "Let the Legions come forth" or a audio snippet of the part when he appears on the "Command Centre" of Ravenhill for the first time will play.

Something will open a big hole in the middle of the field, and the Legions of Gundabad will appear.

Units:
3 Dol Guldur Orcs / Gundabad Elite Orcs
3 Dol Guldur Archers / Gundabad Elite Archers
3 Dol Guldur Spearmen / Gundabad Elite Spearmen
3 Gundabad Battle Trolls (The one with armors on the BOTFA film, not the hideous ones :P)

I chose Dol Guldur troops because, if I recall correctly, their design is based on some of the troops from BOTFA.

Let me know what you think of this concept, I'd like to hear your thoughts!

EDIT: Added Gundabad elite units to the units part.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: kmogon am 17. Okt 2016, 14:30
Dol guldur orcs are based on orcs from second part of hobbit . Additionally I can say that ET wrote sth about similar skill in one of articles - there was said that instead of spider sommon will be tunnel summon from which orcs will go out .
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 17. Okt 2016, 23:36
They would be different in a sense. The Spell that has been described by the Edain Team summons (If I remember correctly) regular units, while this would summon the army that was united to take the Mountain. They both use tunnels, and maybe this could work against the concept, but they are different in their own way.

It was just a quick concept I made to give a general view of my ideas, if you feel anything can be improved, say it :P.

I'd also like to add that I don't think Dragon Strike should be the counterpart to the Balrog's summon. It just feels strange, because, while it could be good gameplay wise, it hasn't changed since the vanilla game, and I think that with Smaug and the Dragon Outpost, there is enough Dragons in the Misty Mountains.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Okt 2016, 00:02
It was just a quick concept I made to give a general view of my ideas, if you feel anything can be improved, say it  :P

And you/we have the absolute right to develop things by adjusting and reassessing concepts. Progression and debate definitely help perfect any kind of proposals  :)

I like the idea of a Goblins/Orcs-based summoning spell, though we should make clear whether it's meant to implement BOTFA Dol Guldur concepts (already well represented in Mordor) or some elite units of BOTFA Gundabad (that would otherwise not be in the regular Gundabad subfaction). I would still stick to the latter proposition. Another option could be respecting the Edain and BFME customs, and thus trying to conceive a destructive spell involving the wild wrath of nature; but we already dismissed some possible alternatives.

I'd also like to add that I don't think Dragon Strike should be the counterpart to the Balrog's summon. It just feels strange, because, while it could be good gameplay wise, it hasn't changed since the vanilla game, and I think that with Smaug and the Dragon Outpost, there is enough Dragons in the Misty Mountains.

Spot on. I reaffirm again my thoughts.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 18. Okt 2016, 00:08
Agree on the Gundabad units, the Dol Guldur ones were just kind of a placeholder for better ideas, and because I didn't remember a lot of the BOTFA concepts, even though I watched it last week :D. I think many aspects of that army can be represented with the spell, so it has a great value both conceptually-wise and gameplay-wise, that's why I like the idea of the "Legions" so much, because you can include a lot of the Hobbit trilogy Misty Mountains  concepts without breaking balance!
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Okt 2016, 01:12
I think many aspects of that army can be represented with the spell, so it has a great value both conceptually-wise and gameplay-wise, that's why I like the idea of the "Legions" so much, because you can include a lot of the Hobbit trilogy Misty Mountains  concepts without breaking balance!

Even if it's not necessarily referred to the Defiler, the legion theme might be a smart means via which it could be possible to provide more differentiation to the faction: beside the main loose and wild characteristics, there is also a structured military apparatus that can be temporarily unleashed against the enemies (mirroring for a brief amount of time Mordor's warfare).

The problem is that I have not played with the Misty Mountains yet and I don't really know which motives will exactly characterise the faction (I mean, their actual display in the game), nor can I have the precise sense of the extent of Bolg's military leadership. Considering also that we're still talking about the official news released almost three years ago.

Other insights will surely be of precious help, especially by someone who has already had the privilege to play with the Goblins. I recognise it's quite challenging to discuss about something in this particular context, but I believe it's surely worth gathering people's opinions on the matter  :)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 18. Okt 2016, 15:56
Same, I want to know the opinions of more people about the spell, and it would be great if someone that has already tested the Misty Mountains faction and knows how this faction will be ingame gave their opinion as well!

I am really interested in seeing this discussion continue, to see what we can do with the concept, or, who knows, a new concept that someone makes! Even if the Dragon Strike remained as the tier 4 power, it is always great to discuss about concepts or the mod in general.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 18. Okt 2016, 16:54
Well first of all, there might be plans that the orcs who followed Bolg out of Gundabad in BOTFA will become the heavy armor upgrade for the regular Gundabad orcs. So if the team ultimately decides to do that then I'd prefer the Dragon Strike over the orc summon, so that it won't be a copy of the Isengard Unleashed spell.

In that case I'd prefer the Battle Trolls of BOTFA to be buildable in the Troll cage after Bolg has been bought. Each hero respectively ranks up the recruitment buildings of their faction (f.e. Goblin king ranks up the Goblin town buildings, the Defiler ranks up the Gundabad barracks etc.). But in order for the buildings to reach rank 3, the player also needs to build Bolg. As Bolg is the unifier of the MM, he would rank up all the buildings of the faction, and as a bonus the units of MM can also purchase banner carriers. So to add another bonus I think the Troll cage (or the Giant outpost) should be able to build Gundabad Trolls.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 18. Okt 2016, 16:58
That levelling system seems amazing, and I think fits a lot with the faction and the unifying theme!

If they end up having that Heavy Armor look for the Gundabad units, I agree with you on having Dragon Strike (or another spell), and having the Battle Trolls be recruitable on the Troll Cage or the Outpost.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Secret Keeper am 18. Okt 2016, 17:33
Each hero respectively ranks up the recruitment buildings of their faction (f.e. Goblin king ranks up the Goblin town buildings, the Defiler ranks up the Gundabad barracks etc.). But in order for the buildings to reach rank 3, the player also needs to build Bolg. As Bolg is the unifier of the MM, he would rank up all the buildings of the faction.

I think this is the best idea so far.  :)  --- I would keep dragon strike, it's much more intersting and unique than army summon.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 18. Okt 2016, 17:57
Actually that isn't my idea, this is how it already was in the mod xD. Julio asked for an opinion from someone who tested the faction, and me and hoho are the only ones in the English betatesting team who have done so.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: samael am 18. Okt 2016, 17:59
i have 2 question when is the mm faction operationel ?
and maybe you heard this a lot but i am new here is there a change you be doing a campaine ore is that to much work ?
like in the first bfme there was a capaigne good/bad side
but like i said maybe that is to much work but could this be happening in the futere ?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Okt 2016, 19:01
I would keep dragon strike, it's much more intersting and unique than army summon.

Not so much unique, I would say. The faction can already dispose of a flying Winged Dragon capable of going around and wreaking havoc. And we're not talking about a generic (and quite lore problematical) Dragon, but about Smaug himself. Add to him the very smart 'breeding' system concerning minor dragons: the dragon-theme is well enough covered.

Summoning an army might be risky equally and the option presents its fair part of disadvantages and negative arguments. Nevertheless, as we have time for it, I guess it would be useful if we tried to conceive a totally new 4-tier spell for the Misty Mountains (all suggestions are welcome). In that case, I would really like to know the opinion of the German Community too (whether they are satisfied with the current state or prefer other alternatives). More overt discussion will benefit the forum anyway  :)

i have 2 question when is the mm faction operationel ?
and maybe you heard this a lot but i am new here is there a change you be doing a campaine ore is that to much work ?
like in the first bfme there was a capaigne good/bad side
but like i said maybe that is to much work but could this be happening in the futere ?

1. The Misty Mountains has not been released yet and, as for all the other factions, there won't be precise indications of time. When it is announced, it won't be before the development process is finalised and the very faction tested.

2. The campaign is still something clouded in mystery...  ;)

There is still a faction planned which is expected to come out. When more news regarding the campaign are out, you will definitely notice them. There is not much to discuss about for now.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: kmogon am 18. Okt 2016, 20:05
Hey there, I come up with idea about scout hero in MM faction. As we know so far the scout  hero probably will be Yazeg from first hobbit. He is anyway the most non-lore accurate from all MM heroes and I thought about sth more "bookly". So why not to implement this big grey wargs' leader from book when thorin's company were surronded by wargs after escapeing from goblins. Yazeg's mobility would be saved, and another ( smaug, tree trolls ) hero would represent wild part of MM faction. He could even spawn small band of wargs which can help him to play more agressively ( which is MM's the main goal ) and in late game would get bonus for them and warg riders. Only one drawback is that he probably would be to similar to drauglin
:(
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 18. Okt 2016, 20:24
Not so much unique, I would say. The faction can already dispose of a flying Winged Dragon capable of going around and wreaking havoc. And we're not talking about a generic (and quite lore problematical) Dragon, but about Smaug himself.

Well it actually is unique in the kind of damage this power does. Eventhough Smaug can shoot fireballs and even a fire storm in the form of a winged dragon, he is not able to fly over a certain area and set it ablaze like the Dragon Strike power does. There is no other power in the mod that can do this, so I do regard it as unique.

Now if Smaug were able to copy this power for himself, then I'd agree with you to replace the spell. I'd even suggest that Smaug could do this, because the strongest Dragon of the Third Age should cause more havoc than a regular dragon like the one from Dragon Strike :P. It would be awesome to have it as a level 10 power.

Hey there, I come up with idea about scout hero in MM faction. As we know so far the scout  hero probably will be Yazeg from first hobbit. He is anyway the most non-lore accurate from all MM heroes and I thought about sth more "bookly". So why not to implement this big grey wargs' leader from book when thorin's company were surronded by wargs after escapeing from goblins. Yazeg's mobility would be saved, and another ( smaug, tree trolls ) hero would represent wild part of MM faction. He could even spawn small band of wargs which can help him to play more agressively ( which is MM's the main goal ) and in late game would get bonus for them and warg riders. Only one drawback is that he probably would be to similar to drauglin
:(

He isn't called Yazneg, he is just called "the Scout". He only has Yazneg's appearance, like "the Defiler" has Azog's design, but is not actually Azog.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: kmogon am 18. Okt 2016, 20:36
"He isn't called Yazneg, he is just called "the Scout". He only has Yazneg's appearance, like "the Defiler" has Azog's design, but is not actually Azog."

I know, I just thought in that way why there should be just "scout" who is nobady special, when can be warg leader who has apperances in book ? Additionaly Yazeg as himself wasn't worth to implement, in my opinion. Better option I think would be to use bolg model as he would be more recognise .
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 18. Okt 2016, 20:41
Edain Team said they didn't like the Movies' final Bolg design, that's why they used the original concept that ended being the Jailor on Dol Guldur. I think Yazneg has a bigger part on the first film than that wolf on the book, and in the Edain Mod, like Fredius said, he isn't Yazneg, he just has his design.

Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Okt 2016, 20:59
Well it actually is unique in the kind of damage this power does. Eventhough Smaug can shoot fireballs and even a fire storm in the form of a winged dragon, he is not able to fly over a certain area and set it ablaze like the Dragon Strike power does. There is no other power in the mod that can do this, so I do regard it as unique.

One could reply by saying that Smaug himself is already supposed to be the fire-breathing deadly machine. A regular or quasi-regular hero who can dispose of destructive powers while being a stable presence, and an even more destructive 4-tier spell yet momentary. Which one of the two is more effective than the other, strategy-wise, in the end?  :P

Damage is obviously something I didn't consider as a uniqueness aspect. I'm more concerned about the fact that Smaug ought to be the apex of that dragon-motive (and not to contest this title with an ultimate spell) and the fact that Dragon Strike is another vanilla spell. Not that I have something against vanilla spells (the summoning of the Balrog is simply perfect), but having two vanilla spells as ultimate ones wouldn't do justice to the Edain Mod, in my personal opinion. The path of creating a new concept is indeed difficult, though I'm sure the Community has by now developed the proper determination to withstand challenging debates  8-)


Now if Smaug were able to copy this power for himself, then I'd agree with you to replace the spell. I'd even suggest that Smaug could do this, because the strongest Dragon of the Third Age should cause more havoc than a regular dragon like the one from Dragon Strike :P. It would be awesome to have it as a level 10 power.

I agree with you. Smaug will be a central, if not the most significant, character of the Misty Mountains. He should really be made the biggest and deadliest possible, regardless of the relative limits needed for balance-related reasons. I strongly support this extreme boldness, even if it goes against my interests: ensuring that evil and foul monsters are not too much in the spotlight  :D
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: kmogon am 18. Okt 2016, 21:10
I can only add that dragon strike ( If I remember good ) is not as practical. Dragon had to fly from one corner of map to point where spell was placed and it took to much time - battle situation just changed before he arrived.

Edain Team said they didn't like the Movies' final Bolg design, that's why they used the original concept that ended being the Jailor on Dol Guldur. I think Yazneg has a bigger part on the first film than that wolf on the book, and in the Edain Mod, like Fredius said, he isn't Yazneg, he just has his design.

I understand it but for me it's just creating a hero from random orc number 26048595.  This same is with defiler who is nobody special but we all know that he looks like azog and has skill which acorrding to his movie adaptation so he just has to be.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 18. Okt 2016, 21:38
He isn't a random orc in my opinion, making a Hero of a random orc would be making one of the Morgul Orc banner carriers (who are based on some Orcs from the LOTR films) a  full-fledged Hero. Yazneg had some importance in the films, as he was the leader of the Hunters that were sent by The Defiler to kill Thorin and his Company. Making the Warg a Hero would be unique, but also too similar to Drauglin, like you said, while the concept that has been presented for Yazneg (when the Scouts were presented) is quite unique and has abilities that fit his concept. For that Warg, a lot of abilities would need to be designed without almost anything to base it from, and he would most likely become a generic Warg (It's been a long time since I last read The Hobbit, but I don't remember him having a lot of importance).
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 21. Okt 2016, 06:10
Just a curiosity of mine. I suppose the Misty Mountains' in-game soundtrack will be based on the Moria sequence tracks of LOTR and the relative Gundabad/Goblin-town themes of the Hobbit trilogy, right?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 21. Okt 2016, 13:59
Yes :).
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: TheDarkOne am 22. Okt 2016, 19:43
I hope Edain Team will make Smaug almost all powerfull, such an enormity on the battlefield that the enemy player will literally look at him in utter horror. And it would be worthy of spending a vast amount of resources.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 22. Okt 2016, 22:50
I hope Edain Team will make Smaug almost all powerfull, such an enormity on the battlefield that the enemy player will literally look at him in utter horror. And it would be worthy of spending a vast amount of resources.
Well, since Smaug will be a permanent hero and probably cost 3000 (like other faction leaders) I don't think so. Then Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron etc. should be 'all powerful' too. But I hope he will be strong enough.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Okt 2016, 00:02
I hope Edain Team will make Smaug almost all powerfull, such an enormity on the battlefield that the enemy player will literally look at him in utter horror. And it would be worthy of spending a vast amount of resources.

That's exactly my wish. Not all-powerful, but the most terrible threat possible. Should he be made the enormous calamity he is supposed to be, I wouldn't personally mind having some restrictions placed on him to balance his presence (such as having him available after a certain amount of time). Smaug is so precious and so are the elements related to him; the points discussed in the previous passages of this discussion. His immense potential is what will give the new Misty Mountains its own precious value.

Smaug is undoubtedly the major Dragon, and he shouldn't contend his title with anyone else.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 23. Okt 2016, 00:43
Agree with this. Smaug should be the greatest and chiefest calamity he is in Tolkien's Universe. As the most powerful Hero of the Misty Mountains, and being the last of the Great Dragons, this needs to be reflected in his in-game concept. I'd like restrictions placed on his recruitment if he is made to be that strong, because that would reflect both his strength and the fact that, in a sense, he is not part of the Misty Mountains' army, and that he needs to be lured to Sauron's side. He would be the powerful destruction tool that would complement the endless swarms of Bolg's army, to help them bring shadow to Middle-Earth.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Okt 2016, 01:43
And, in regards of the uniqueness which is always sought for in any concept, it might be quite revolutionary to have the most prominent hero of the faction not as the common leader (the duality aspect of the Misty Mountains' leadership), but as the loose deadly bane he really is. What if, alongside the hypothesised restrictions, he cost more than 3000 resources? I would totally accept it, provided he were to satisfy all the qualities we addressed.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 23. Okt 2016, 01:47
I think that Heroes that cost more than 3000 can't be recruited by the AI, if I remember correctly, but if this cost increase was applied through upgrades in a building or something like that, it could be applied and still make Smaug recruitable, so I fully agree with your proposal!
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: kmogon am 27. Okt 2016, 21:42
I was thinking about soundset for Bolg - we all know that movie's bolg is more hunter than a leader and he has less dialogs like this than azog.  And as far as I remember orc who tortured gandalf hasn't as many lines. So which one would Bolg get ?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 27. Okt 2016, 21:52
I'd bet he'll get Bolg's movie soundset, even if it is not the same design, to simulate the fact that the Edain Bolg would actually take the place of the movie's design as the Bolg in Edain-Universe, so to speak.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: sgtryan88 am 3. Nov 2016, 03:17
About Misty Mountain Siege Mechanics.

What are the plans ?

I saw in films they have some  troll's  variants, like "Head Stone Troll",  " Catapult Trolls", "Ladder Holder Troll"  and " Shield Troll". But What about use Giant Worms "earth eaters" like a siege weapon ?

It's possible a Worm dig a tunnel into the castles like in BOTTA MOD ?
(https://s21.postimg.org/d5tqize87/TROLLS1.jpg)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Nov 2016, 12:12
The giant worms of BOTFA are very unlikely to become part of the game. The Edain Team didn't like the very concept altogether. Regarding trolls themselves, I think there are some proposals in the previous posts that deal with armoured trolls, though I'm not completely sure about it; moreover, we don't have enough knowledge yet of the precise intentions (future intentions) of the developers in regards of BOTFA content. I can't unfortunately give you a definitive answer whether they want or not to explore more concerning trolls, beside the aspects which are already present in the faction. It's all speculation for now.

In my opinion, most of those concepts wouldn't fit at all in the game. The whole grotesque trait (farcical, at times) of the Hobbit trilogy is very prominent in their characterisation (as the infamous zombie trolls, for example). But I'm nonetheless very open-minded, though, towards possible scopes for additional inclusions from the third film; provided that they are really worthy of being considered, of course.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: sgtryan88 am 3. Nov 2016, 20:27
I can't think about Misty Mountains siege mechanics without  thinking in trolls.

They are a huge part of the faction, i know some models from BOTFA are grotesque, like that controled zombie troll,but we have a lot of interesting models too (armored trolls, catapult trolls, armored half trolls, etc.

In fact, by the production faction stage, i think patch 4.5 won't have Misty Montains :(
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Nov 2016, 01:55
Believe me, I understand what you stand for and that you are really hoping to see those concepts in the game. But there are some limits which must be respected, if we want the Edain Mod to keep high standards of quality. Most of those trolls are not suitable for the game, because the tone of the third film diverges concretely from the common customs; but, as I previously wrote, it wouldn't really displease me if something related to armoured trolls were added in the future (taking inspiration from BOTFA), as other important elements of the Misty Mountains.

In fact, by the production faction stage, i think patch 4.5 won't have Misty Montains :(

If the Misty Mountains are not to be in the 4.5 patch, it would be for very justified reasons. Furthermore, more time increases the chances of more innovative changes. I would thus regard it as a positive fact, not negative  :)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: esparado87 am 11. Nov 2016, 11:00
How are buildings leveled in Misty Mountain faction?
By gaining resources in general/pillage...?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 11. Nov 2016, 12:58
Each hero respectively ranks up the recruitment buildings of their faction (f.e. Goblin king ranks up the Goblin town buildings, the Defiler ranks up the Gundabad barracks etc.). But in order for the buildings to reach rank 3, the player also needs to build Bolg. As Bolg is the unifier of the MM, he would rank up all the buildings of the faction, and as a bonus the units of MM can also purchase banner carriers.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: esparado87 am 12. Nov 2016, 19:25
So getting Bolg automaticly levels all buildings to level 3, even if no other heroes are hired?
Or would getting only Bolg level all buildings to only level 2?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 12. Nov 2016, 21:10
If you only get Bolg before the other heroes then the buildings will level up to level 2.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: esparado87 am 12. Nov 2016, 23:06
Have the units and heroes of Misty Mountain changed since this article was published?
http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two (http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 12. Nov 2016, 23:21
The MM haven't been worked on afaik, the team is still busy doing other stuff first.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: esparado87 am 12. Nov 2016, 23:55
Will the "Siege" update come this year (not including Misty Mountains faction)?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Nov 2016, 00:02
Will the "Siege" update come this year?

This kind of information is not provided here and in these terms (the topic of the thread is another one). The update will be released once it's ready to be so  ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: WarOfTheRingVeteran am 21. Nov 2016, 20:31
Have the units and heroes of Misty Mountain changed since this article was published?
http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two (http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two)

Well, there is some new stuff; Great Goblin and The Defiler have been reworked:

http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/the-great-goblin2#imagebox
http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/the-defiler1#imagebox  (respectively, as if anyone needed this XD

..and a new hero has been added: http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/the-hunter#imagebox  about who you can read here: http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-the-scout-heroes

Also a new article has been posted: http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-of-trolls-and-army-commanders

I'm pretty sure that's it. And this: http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/improved-widescreen-interface8#imagebox , though you've probably seen it already.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 23. Dez 2016, 21:02
Good day everyone,

Anyhow, I know that ET has selected the dragon Smaug to be the Ringhero of the Misty Mountains and I know that they have also selected William, Bert, and Tom, Bolg, and many other heroes to represent the Misty Mountains during the "Hobbit" timeline.

While I do not have an issue with this, ET focuses on War of the Ring, and many of the characters listed in Misty Mountains are dead by the time of War of the Ring.

I mean, ET could still use Gorkil the Moria Goblin Chief, but I would like to see Misty Mountains have the ability to pick from their old heroes: (Original Great Goblin design from Edain, Original characters that Edain Team had before the Hobbit movies were finished) just so they can participate in the War of the Ring and become more canonical.

Or are we saying that just mishmash them with War of the Ring and who gives a rats?

Anyhow, if this system cannot be included for the heroes, then I would like to see this system included on certain maps if possible with all Third Age heroes like the Balrog, Moria Goblin Chief, new Great Goblin, Bruhdur of the trolls, etc.

Because Misty Mountains, like all factions of Middle Earth, deserve to be more canonical. And most assuredly there would be a new Great Goblin/Ruler over Goblin Gate and Gundabad.

I don't know, what do you guys think. I don't think this is too much to ask and the armies would stay the same, be built the same way and utilize the same units, only thing that would change is their heroes to represent both timelines. I think since there is an Arnor way of doing this and a Dwarf way of doing this, I can only see this making the faction that much more interesting.

"But Dkbluewizard, what about powers?"

Again, with the Arnor system, the powers were totally different. Also, if a certain time period is chosen for the Misty Mountains, then the last powers would change. Instead of summoning the Balrog, you summon an average dragon from vanilla BFME2.

If you choose to play the Hobbit time period, then you get the Balrog summon (which Edain is doing anyways). So I think these all work out and it make the Misty Mountains more interesting, fun, and canonical.

But as always there is the challenge of coding. Which I still think it could be done rather easily given the Dwarf and Arnor system that we have.

Let me know how I have disgruntled you guys. I really don't see an issue with this and would like to see this more canonical to Tolkien's work. It would still be balanced. Let me know what you all think.

--dkbluewizard.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Dez 2016, 22:49
Thank you for having shared with us your suggestions, Blue. First of all, I will merge the topic with another far wider thread about the Misty Mountains that we established some time ago. I had exactly opted to gather all the contributions regarding these matters (for now) in one single space, so that we were easily allowed to brainstorm a bit, before the Edain Team announced the patch that would release the last planned faction; only then may the Moderators allow diverse proposals to spread normally across the boards of the forum. In that wide-ranging discussion, we dealt with a lot of extremely pivotal themes: from gameplay systems to a possible overhaul of Smaug's concept (something I always advocate with passion). As far as the debate developed until now, I have to say that I'm really satisfied with the result. I'm sure your ideas shall enrich it even more.

Now, on the matter, I want to clarify an important aspect you addressed. The timeline of the Misty Mountains will be set during the events of the Hobbit, and not during the War of the Ring. This is a quite clever solution that permitted the developers to feed both from the LOTR trilogy (without major contradictions) and from the recent Hobbit trilogy equally. In particular, the whole LOTR atmosphere will necessarily be centred around the legendary Moria sequence and its eerie elements (the treacherous environment of the mines and the very situational presence of the Balrog via the spellbook); on the other hand, the Hobbit trilogy gives us well vast fields to focus on Gundabad, the heroes that lead the legions of the Orcs and, obviously, the greatest calamity of all: Smaug the Golden. I would consider them as the main guidelines they decided to follow.

Surely, it's not that these decisions avoid all issues entirely. One problem, in fact, was how to resolve the problematical role of Azog and his very presence in the fist place. The Hobbit timeline is thus a kind of mild way via which it's possible to live up to the expectations that the Hobbit films naturally create, without contrasting with the other two timelines (the Battle of Azanulbizar and LOTR). And so it's quite acceptable, in my opinion, why Azog becomes the apparently generic 'Hunter' and Bolg retains his proper characterisation according to the lore. In light of all these points, as I already stated in the thread this topic will soon be merged with, I think the most important themes which ought to be looked into are the overhaul of Smaug (to resemble even more the linkage to the Hobbit trilogy) and possible expanded roles for some heroes (as the Hunter). It's absolutely paramount that the Misty Mountains be one the most Hobbit-based factions of the game, as its properties strongly suggest.

A system akin to the one of the Dwarves or of Arnor might unnecessarily disrupt the current subfaction-system (three realms), since those two factions' mechanics are not meant to deal with timeline issues (at least, not primarily); they are intended to make three different factions coexist in a coherent design (Dwarves) or to allow another faction to be available in the game (Arnor). Those are not the cases of the Goblins. By the way, I really recommend you browse the whole discussion, where I and other people discussed many more topics and phrased our arguments a good deal better than this summary of mine  ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 23. Dez 2016, 23:49
Diewalkure sir,

I agree with what you posted and what has been said. I think I am being misunderstood--and if I misunderstood your post I apologize.

My issue is not with the faction at all. Like you I agree with how the faction should be implemented, I am just concerned with the heroes that are dead by the time of the War of the Ring.

However, I would be will put aside that issue if and only if on the War of the Ring mode, we got new heroes that were alive during the War of the Ring, similar to ET having Erebor be the main faction in War of the Ring mode.

I just want consistency. That doesn't mean that ET's idea for Misty Mountains isn't good, I just want to expand on it. Building it and making it more copacetic. Unfortunately, this is not the case with the heroes that are there now.

I agree that based on everything represented ET has done a darn good job of representing the Hobbit films pertaining to this faction. But what about the lore? We have done that consistently with all other factions why is MM so different?

Hardly any of the heroes for the WOTR are represented, to me that is a shame. It is like we're saying, "Here are the MM and the heroes from the Hobbit. They are not really applicable in WOTR." Even though in the books they chased the Fellowship and went into Rohan with Isengard and Mordor Orcs.

But if you say that ET has decided to only set MM in the Hobbit era, then I guess I need not comment further, but this seems really odd given that they have made adjustments and blendings for every faction. It looks weird and that is the only thing I have to say about it. But if what's done is done, then I guess that is that.

Still would like the new heroes for WOTR mode to be implemented though...
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Dez 2016, 02:09
No, really, there is no need to apologise. We're just discussing and discussions often get better in time, when they progress. I understood your concern very clearly. What I wanted to point out was that, given the premises, the current design satisfies the most the needs of both gameplay and the expectations of the Community regarding the films.

The unique mechanism of the faction in fact serves well for the purpose of tying together three different realms (Moria, Gundabad and Goblin-town). I genuinely believe that the system focuses on the most prominent aspects of each realm and thus finds a balance among all the elements involved. Said that, the prominent properties of the War of the Ring timeline that deserved to be explored were mainly the iconic Moria sequence and the situational Balrog: Moria (with its own recognisable style) will thus be the core of the faction, from which the player will then have the chance to expand and make usage of the other realms, and the Balrog will be implemented via the spellbook as it has always been since BFME1. The eerie touch of Moria has its just representation in the game, endowed with a superb characterisation (the models were exactly crafted and made even darker, in order to stick to the Fellowship of the Ring).

In terms of heroes, though, Moria has little to offer. Thus the choice to follow the Hobbit timeline (to match with Moria as well) and to put under the spotlight the characters that played a significant part in the Hobbit trilogy, alongside embodying thoroughly the spirit of the trilogy itself. Just think about Smaug (or Azog) and the equation is balanced. Smaug is really one of the most precious concepts that PJ and WETA came up with. In the end, as it often happens with many concepts of the Edain Mod, this was objectively the most reasonable compromise; therefore, I don't personally mind doing without certain things, provided that the faction is maintained unique and variegated as it currently is.

I don't really know if your proposal about the War of the Ring mode is really feasible, but the implications you mentioned are indeed legitimate. I hope they will eventually find a way to sort the issue out.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 26. Dez 2016, 02:11
Dang, thanks Diewalkure for showing the entirety of this. I didn't know Smaug was such a BIG issue. If Smaug is causing this much concern to the ET, community, and the designs, why not just make the Balrog the main playable ringhero? I mean he is more canonical anyways and he is around during the time of the Hobbit. Make him the Ringhero.

If Smaug is going to be the ringhero then he should be able to be recruitable from the start like any other ringhero. I don't understand why Smaug has to be so complex if ET is going to incorporate him into the game. If it is that big of a deal, then I suggest the Balrog for simplicity and cannon. Summon Dragon for final power like vanilla BFME2.

That is my opinion, I wish we would get the Balrog or Smaug one or the other. But if Smaug is going to be the definite ringhero, he should be canonical with two front legs and two back legs. He also should be very big.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: lord_ellessar am 11. Jan 2017, 17:45
Will the Moria buildings be "decorated" with dwarven cadavers and destroyed shelves/tables or just the building itself ? :)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 11. Jan 2017, 18:00
Will the Moria buildings be "decorated" with dwarven cadavers and destroyed shelves/tables or just the building itself ? :)

I don't really know it. If there weren't any kind of decorations of that sort, I would be totally in favour of what you proposed. The Moria sequence is the major embodiment of the whole eerie, macabre and ghoulish touch of Fellowship of the Ring. It's one of the main themes.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 11. Jan 2017, 21:53
Is there a way to make fire attacks (any kind) heal balrog health ? For example when when Balrog is attacked with Fire arrows Arrows damage him but fire damage heals him . I dont want  Balrog reflect them but have him healed whe he is attacked with fire attacks.
To make it possible Gandalf Lightning Strike proably wouldn't deal Fire damage too


I have another idea consider music when we summon Balrog . When we summon him we not only hear standart sound summon but also Khazad Dum Music this moment themes would fit i think .

Like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUIZvAe3RBg 4:22-4:36
OR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8CUdK3HY0 2:32-2:34,35
OR megred version from both of them

Also palantir pic or something from "Saruman Book" would be cool

Some climatic music making whole summon more movie like more atmospheric.

Edit:

I would like to see Passive ability for Balrog : debuff will make units,monsters,heroes faster +15% but all thier damage and armor become worse -25% to both .
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: lord_ellessar am 11. Jan 2017, 22:42
i agree with saruman book palantir xD
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Jan 2017, 00:28
Also palantir pic or something from "Saruman Book" would be cool

I literally love that image, and it always reminds me of that famous quotation of Saruman concerning Moria and its fate. It really contributes, along with the other elements, to create that sense of eeriness I was talking about. Nevertheless, I don't really know if that kind of picture could serve well as a spell icon (due to the size).

As for proper sounds, I don't know if there's a specific track when the Balrog is summoned, but I agree we should hear something a bit more characteristic and LOTR-related. That sequence is simply legendary.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 13. Jan 2017, 04:57
Also palantir pic or something from "Saruman Book" would be cool

I literally love that image, and it always reminds me of that famous quotation of Saruman concerning Moria and its fate. It really contributes, along with the other elements, to create that sense of eeriness I was talking about. Nevertheless, I don't really know if that kind of picture could serve well as a spell icon (due to the size).

As for proper sounds, I don't know if there's a specific track when the Balrog is summoned, but I agree we should hear something a bit more characteristic and LOTR-related. That sequence is simply legendary.

There is one place where this picture could be implemented replacing this one

(https://s30.postimg.org/8ard6ftxt/sshot0007.jpg) (http://file)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 15. Feb 2017, 17:23
I thought about one of spells in Goblin facton called Drums in the deep and this spell in edain 3.8.1 give additional 20% damage and armor boost and i have idea to make diffrent effect for this spell. What about make this spell more friendly and make all buildings except citadel summon creeps form walking around building and protect him from enemy attacks (temporary) .? I keep in mind there will be 3 diffrent Goblin kingdoms  Orcs of Moria, Gundabad and Goblintown so each get his own unique Goblin creep unit even strong Uruks in Gundabad case. Goblins no longer get units around building by defualt right(?) so as spell it could work i think . This spell proably get into second row in spellbook so it can't be to op so temporary guard for all buildings 4 weaker guys for Orcs of Moria, and Goblintown and 2 Uruks for Gundabad wouldn't be too strong of course it is open to discussion .
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 21. Mai 2017, 22:17
I was just rewatching Fellowship Of The Ring (as a matter of fact, it is paused at Lothlorien now :P), and while seeing the Cave Troll scene, I had an idea that I hope helps to spark discussion about MM again:

Cave Trolls only have their melee ability and rock-throwing ability, but... How about if, when Bolg is recruited and the Misty Mountains armies start to become organized, Cave Trolls unlock an option to either have the mace or the trident that we see in FOTR, earning new advantages if they unlock them, at the cost of their rock-throwing ability?

I've not made a deep concept, but I hope it can spark discussion!
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 21. Mai 2017, 23:11
Nice idea. I myself have always been fond of the trident we may see in FOTR, as I think it adds something more to the troll: a much cruel and definitely wilder touch, as the weapon itself seems to be an improvised tool (as if it were more appropriate for hunting, rather than the actual battle). Now, I don't know if a trident would be a tough eventuality to cope with, since there might be issues with animations. I'm nonetheless open-minded towards this possibility :)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 21. Mai 2017, 23:17
Nice idea. I myself have always been fond of the trident we may see in FOTR, as I think it adds something more to the troll: a much cruel and definitely wilder touch, as the weapon itself seems to be an improvised tool (as if it were more appropriate for hunting, rather than the actual battle). Now, I don't know if a trident would be a tough eventuality to cope with, since there might be issues with animations. I'm nonetheless open-minded towards this possibility :)

I'm glad you liked the idea! I thought about the possible problems with the trident animation, but I think some animation like the hammer or sword one Mordor Trolls have could be used as a workaround if needed. Don't know how it would look, though.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 21. Mai 2017, 23:31
Correct. Animations could be the real issue. Although I'm personally fascinated by animations/skeletons, they're also quite complex to go through. I can't recall whether there is a suitable animation at disposal, but I would say that the concept is worth making an attempt, at least.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 22. Mai 2017, 20:49
Hello Fellows of Modding union xD;
Since there are a lot of discussions  around the mighty Smaug, i decided to present my general (for now very raw) idea of my "ideal Smaug". Take it in the spirit of this thread: discussion and speculation no more than that (at least since MM faction will be near ). Feel free to give your own opinion about anything related to the concept of the future Smaug and what you like/don't like about mine (i repeat in general is a first raw idea without many details):

SMAUG THE GOLDEN : MY PERSONAL CONCEPT
First of all i want to make a clarification : this whole concept has been made with the spirit of the thread itself. It is not something to present (we are  still far from MM) but only to speculate and discuss and, eventually, to take as a source of inspiration for future concepts.
I decided to focus the attention to the three fundamental aspect of the mighty dragon :
-   He’s a very powerful weapon
-   He’s greedy
-   He’s very smart
Possible initial statistic values of the dragon :
-   recriutment cost : 5500.
-   Initial HP : 12000.
-   Population cost: 30 (like other heroes).
-   Initial melee attack value: 300.
-   Type of melee attack: AOE.
The core of my concept.
Initially the Greatest Calamity of Middle Earth will have a weakness against arrows while flying, but with an increasing of the armor at level five. Following the lore and films Smaug has an impenetrable armor, it is practically impossible to fear him with normal weapons. Since this interpretation would be unbalance in game, it is impossible to implementi it as it is.              Anyhow, the player must have (at least) more chances to survive against rains of arrows. Therefore i decided for that increasing of armor at level five. 
The dragon will have two different animation in flight and on the ground like in 3.8.1 (Drogoth+Summoned dragon).
As for the fire related abilities: i don’t think fireball and fireflies fits very well with a dragon.  These type of attack are more related to wizard, which are able to create such particular form of fire attack using magic. In particular we have these two abilities just implemented via Gandalf (Dwarves) and Saruman . I will explain better all the details below in the skill-set.

Smaug skill-set in flight.
Basic attack like fellbeast and eagles.
Rank 1 : "Landing" – as usual.
Rank 1: “Incinerate” – the power is no more at level 10 and so nerfed, it will be something more effective against unit, as a first mass-slayer area of effect ability, like for example is wizard blast for Gandalf and Saruman. The animation of course will remain the same of Drogoth. Personally i think Smaug deserves some more devasting power for the last level.
Rank 3:  “Roar of the Beast” – the fearsome roar of the Golden one makes the enemy flee in terror.
Rank 5: “Impenetrable amour (passive)” – quoting Tolkien, “my armor is like tenfold shields”. Smaug permanently gains +50% armour against arrows.
Rank 7: “Wings like an hurricane” – Smaug uses his massive wings to create an air blast that knock back units in a wide radius dealing also medium damage.
Rank 10: “I’m fire, I’m death” – like we seen in the scenes of BOTFA during the attack of Lake Town, Smaug sets fire on the ground while flying, burning everything in a hell of fire. The crucial point of this last ability is the animation. The most fitting to resamble what we have seen in the movie, is the Dragon Strike attack. Supposing the power will be removed of the spellbook of MM of course. Just imagine this beautiful animation given to Smaug:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTynrCcWYS0


Smaug skill-set on the ground
Now the basic melee attack of Smaug is fire as in 3.8.1. 
Rank 1 : “Flying “– as usual.
Rank 1: "Dragon Breath": a fire attack very effective against gates. Smaug’s Firebreath opens Gates and even burns garrisoned units. I simply copied the one presented so far by the team but i make it active and not passive. Same animation of the basic fire attack. Also the flames of Firedrakes from vanilla game are very good but probably is difficut to adapt such animation to a bigger model like the one of Smaug.
Rank 3:  “Roar of the Beast” – same as in flight.
Rank 5: “Dragon Sickness (passive)” – The desire of gold and treasures makes Smaug very greedy. He collects resources from fallen enemies and destroyed buildings. I think a similar ability is necessary to capture his greedy character.
Rank 7: “My Claws are Spears” – Smaug uses his legs and claws to smash the enemy units. For 30 seconds he can trample the masses swatting all on his path (just think about the amazing scenes in which he enters into Erebor).
Rank 10: “Hypnotic Gaze” – also this ability is something presented by the ET years ago. I don’t know what exactly  means this ability (there’s no description). My interpretation is something related to the evil face of Smaug and his serpentine and powerful voice: the effect of his gaze and voice immobilizes enemy heroes and weaken them. (the particular scene in which his words penetrate the mind of Bilbo that takes off the ring ). This last ability if rewoked well (mine is very raw) could capture his character as evil,smart and speaking dragon.

THE GRAPHICS

I have not yet a clear idea about the palantirs of the different powers. Of course the most must be inspired by the hobbit movies in my opinion. I'm quite critic about some horrid things seen in the movies, but not for Smaug which is well succeeded in any aspect. However i will stick to the classic four legs dragons which is more lore-loyal and it avoids animation problem. The model by Aotr is the best example:
I would change only the colors, in favour of a more bright red like this miniature of gw:
But is a matter of personal tastes :)
Let me know what is your ideal Smaug for Edain 4.0 and what would you change about him  ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Secret Keeper am 22. Mai 2017, 22:37
This is probably unpopular opinion, but I would cross Smaug off from hero list. Monsters in BFME games are so hard to operate, they always trample, suffer huge damage, few animation bugs. They are cool but they really suck in game in general, from trolls -> olyphants -> to dragons. I would rather leave ring in Bolg's hands and use Smaug as huge catastrophy you can call on others - exactly as Dragon Strike from vanilla.

I do believe that having Smaug as a regular hero and even as Ring hero will cause more problems than help and enjoyment.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 22. Mai 2017, 23:01

I really like your idea! I'd find Smaug fun to play and faithful to lore this way, even cooler if he said his quotes as he used his abilities "My claws are spears!".

The cost should be maximum 3000, because AI can't recruit Heroes that are worth more, that's one of the reasons that make me think he should only be recruitable after the completion of certain tasks, as was suggested before. This would help to make up for his (probable) OPness, and would be like Isengard's level 5 fully upgraded Uruks with Steelworks upgrades: A place of advantage enemies of the Misty Mountains can't allow them to reach.


I understand your point, but I don't agree with it. Monsters are such an integral part of the BFME experience, and MM represents (at least for me) the faction where the biggest monster threats should be. Smaug is also so iconic, probably the most iconic aspect of The Hobbit, and I feel like it would be wasting his potential not to have him as a regular Hero.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 22. Mai 2017, 23:53
This is probably unpopular opinion, but I would cross Smaug off from hero list. Monsters in BFME games are so hard to operate, they always trample, suffer huge damage, few animation bugs. They are cool but they really suck in game in general, from trolls -> olyphants -> to dragons. I would rather leave ring in Bolg's hands and use Smaug as huge catastrophy you can call on others - exactly as Dragon Strike from vanilla.

I do believe that having Smaug as a regular hero and even as Ring hero will cause more problems than help and enjoyment.

It is not so unpopular actually :) Just look at the BOTTA mod Smaug for example. Anyway i prefer to stick to my idea as permanent hero: i like powerful summoned heroes too, like Balrog for example, but i think in case of Smaug we have to make him recruitable in order to not waste such a great potential. He's a complex character to be a monster, and i think is worthy to be reworked as a new permanent hero.

Monsters in general have some intrisic defects, but currently i like very much how the team reworked them (expecially trolls and ents) in 4.0 with respect to 3.8.1. There will be always a margin of improvement even for monsters  ;)

I really like your idea! I'd find Smaug fun to play and faithful to lore this way, even cooler if he said his quotes as he used his abilities "My claws are spears!".

Not only that but also for the other abilities we have a lot of sound material from Benedict voice (for level 10 : "i am fire,i am death " so epic would be  xD xD).

The cost should be maximum 3000, because AI can't recruit Heroes that are worth more, that's one of the reasons that make me think he should only be recruitable after the completion of certain tasks, as was suggested before. This would help to make up for his (probable) OPness, and would be like Isengard's level 5 fully upgraded Uruks with Steelworks upgrades: A place of advantage enemies of the Misty Mountains can't allow them to reach.

Didn't know about this problem. Now that i think how the AI usually work is quite logic: it usually wastes constantly resources to train masses of unit, so probably wouldn't recruit such an expensive hero. Some task system would be fitting combined with an initial cost of 3000. I like this idea    xD
In fact i proposed that 5500 as an initial value to start the debate, without thinking about restrictions if not the high cost itself.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 23. Mai 2017, 00:23
If Edain somehow manages to get their hands on that gorgeous THL/AOTR Smaug, I could die a happy man. Maybe if we ask DúnedainRanger or Mathijs very nicely ^^.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 23. Mai 2017, 00:46
If Edain somehow manages to get their hands on that gorgeous THL/AOTR Smaug, I could die a happy man. Maybe if we ask DúnedainRanger or Mathijs very nicely ^^.
Me too man  :D as I wrote a brighter red wouldn't be so bad. For the rest is perfect. It's simply the model I always dream for Edain mod. A perfect match between Drogoth body and Smaug shape.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Mai 2017, 08:35
As Julio rightly pointed out, heroes can't cost more than 3000 resources. A sort of rule that we may not defy. It's thus imperative that values be confined within that range. Also, if I remember correctly, there are gameplay-related reasons for that choice, given that the Edain Team didn't want to make any hero that expensive (and therefore effective), as it would happen in the previous chapters of the Mod's history. The 4.0 era is generally more focused on coordinating the different characteristics of each faction and on finding a holistic strategy (rather than relying too much on single features).

Regarding Smaug's design, I doubt that the AOTR Team would gladly agree with sharing such precious model, and I would totally understand their decision. We're not talking about a general unit or other secondary characters; I think their own version of Smaug is really the prime jewel of their own vision and impressive gallery, and every project is probably supposed to retain its own unique elements. Reversing the reasoning, it would just be like the Edain Team sharing their central subfaction-system of the Misty Mountains with another project. This consideration of mine is obviously set aside from the fact that I too would love to see that amazing concept in the game; hopefully, the current model will be overhauled or the Edain Team will create another anew (though extremely difficult it might turn out to be).

Feel nonetheless welcome to develop the discussion further, since we get closer and closer to the Misty Mountains with each day passing, even if that is a quite slow process ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Darkayah am 23. Mai 2017, 10:30
If Edain somehow manages to get their hands on that gorgeous THL/AOTR Smaug, I could die a happy man. Maybe if we ask DúnedainRanger or Mathijs very nicely ^^.

I think the Smaug from Edain is good enough and detailed. I like this one more that the one from AOTR.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 23. Mai 2017, 11:26
As Julio rightly pointed out, heroes can't cost more than 3000 resources. A sort of rule that we may not defy. It's thus imperative that values be confined within that range. Also, if I remember correctly, there are gameplay-related reasons for that choice, given that the Edain Team didn't want to make any hero that expensive (and therefore effective), as it would happen in the previous chapters of the Mod's history. The 4.0 era is generally more focused on coordinating the different characteristics of each faction and on finding a holistic strategy (rather than relying too much on single features).

Regarding Smaug's design, I doubt that the AOTR Team would gladly agree with sharing such precious model, and I would totally understand their decision. We're not talking about a general unit or other secondary characters; I think their own version of Smaug is really the prime jewel of their own vision and impressive gallery, and every project is probably supposed to retain its own unique elements. Reversing the reasoning, it would just be like the Edain Team sharing their central subfaction-system of the Misty Mountains with another project. This consideration of mine is obviously set aside from the fact that I too would love to see that amazing concept in the game; hopefully, the current model will be overhauled or the Edain Team will create another anew (though extremely difficult it might turn out to be).

Feel nonetheless welcome to develop the discussion further, since we get closer and closer to the Misty Mountains with each day passing, even if that is a quite slow process ;)

Thanks Diewalk ;) as I can see a lot of people care very much about this argument.
About the cost I understand the point: the idea of certain tasks (e.g. The treasure cave at level 3 and others) to be completed beside a 3000 cost is very good and balance and it avoids to concentrate all the cost in the cost of the hero himself.
What I don't want to see, first of all, is a cheap Smaug but very weak. In name of balance I agree arrows are the only weapon to beat him in flight,  but we have to find a right middle point between extremely weak (I mean when he encounters a group of archers he's slayed in a second)  and extremely strong. An increase of armor in the middle (level 5) just like other heroes in edain, would be perfect in my opinion ;). An edain current example? Well trolls are a good example. A fully upgraded level 5 troll of Mordor is more effective against arrows with respect to previous versions of the game.
On the ground Smaug would be more weak  against heroes and pikes (but not so much like other monsters, damn, we are talking about a dragon  :D :D !!).

I think the Smaug from Edain is good enough and detailed. I like this one more that the one from AOTR.
Edain 4 deserves something more in my opinion. Anyway Of course we cannot force Aotr to give us their model. But is a good example of a 4 legs Smaug.
As a starting point, why not reshape the current Smaug? The summoned dragon from vanilla (from which he comes from) has a more "serpentine" aspect and animation with respect to Drogoth. Starting from this Edain would create a unique and epic model too. I like the red color of the current Smaug:

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/11/10679/thumb_620x2000/SmaugJDHHMFHC.jpg)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Secret Keeper am 23. Mai 2017, 14:58
Smaug from 3.8.1 is really not bad, small tweaking and he is good to go IMO. Important think is to find him a good place in MM faction, as he doesn't belong to them (lore-wise) so much.

Back to Aules idea: I like your proposal about abilities, fit's perfectly. I would change Rank 5: “Dragon Sickness (passive) - I hope that ET will keep scavenger spell in MM spellbook and thus it will overlap. A small change and it's perfect.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 23. Mai 2017, 15:17
I also agree that the design is really of secondary importance after the release of the faction. There is a model already which the ET have worked hard on so it does not bug out and looks unique. After all, they have chosen designs that were not directly implemented from the movie because they did not like those interpretations (thinking of Beorn and Grimbeorn here) so it may be they already find their 3.8.1 model good enough.

If at some point in the far future they feel inspired to take on this project they will have good reasons for it. But for now I don't see it necessary to wait for MM longer because some people want a new Smaug model.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 23. Mai 2017, 15:28
Back to Aules idea: I like your proposal about abilities, fit's perfectly. I would change Rank 5: “Dragon Sickness (passive) - I hope that ET will keep scavenger spell in MM spellbook and thus it will overlap. A small change and it's perfect.

Oh yes you are right. In case of overlapping we have to think another effect of dragon sickness. A brief alternative:
Rank 5 "Dragon Sickness (passive)": the desire of gold and treasures makes Smaug very greedy, he steals resources wherever he goes. All the enemy structures in a medium range produces -30% resources.

This is probably more fitting. Because the greedy of Smaug make him selfish and he doesn't share his treasure with anyone else. So it is better a weakening of the enemy economy rather than an increasing of your own resources  ;)

I also agree that the design is really of secondary importance after the release of the faction. There is a model already which the ET have worked hard on so it does not bug out and looks unique. After all, they have chosen designs that were not directly implemented from the movie because they did not like those interpretations (thinking of Beorn and Grimbeorn here) so it may be they already find their 3.8.1 model good enough.

If at some point in the far future they feel inspired to take on this project they will have good reasons for it. But for now I don't see it necessary to wait for MM longer because some people want a new Smaug model.

I agree graphics is not as I mportant as concept. I'm anyway sure the team is able to fuse the best element of their Smaug and the movies model to create something unique Just as they did with Beorn and Grimbeorn. They look far better than 3.8.1 in my opinion :)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 23. Mai 2017, 16:27
Just for clarification, I did not mean to say that the Edain Smaug looked bad. I just think the darker tint that was used in the movie does a better job of portraying pure evil and that AOTR Smaug has a higher overall texture quality, especially on the face/head. I'm fine with either, in the end. I just want him to be done justice. He's MM's ring hero (currently) and I don't know if that will change, but since he still is, we can go easy on the balancing prospect. I want him to be able to burn big blobs and buildings, that's all.

I don't know if Misty Mountains will have a Mass Slayer hero by default, but I do think the 4.0 Edain interpretation makes the most sense, as being one of the, if not the strongest Mass Slayer in the game, but with less support-oriented elements compared to Sauron.

Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 23. Mai 2017, 17:58
There is a model already which the ET have worked hard on so it does not bug out and looks unique.

I mean no offense, but isn't Edain's Smaug basically a red reskin of the vanilla summoned Dragon?

(https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/9/97/Black_dragon.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110814174332)

I personally do believe that an important hero such as Smaug needs a graphical overhaul as well, and I believe ET is capable to do it, but I do agree that there is no haste to it.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 23. Mai 2017, 19:32
There is a model already which the ET have worked hard on so it does not bug out and looks unique.

I mean no offense, but isn't Edain's Smaug basically a red reskin of the vanilla summoned Dragon?

(https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/9/97/Black_dragon.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110814174332)

I personally do believe that an important hero such as Smaug needs a graphical overhaul as well, and I believe ET is capable to do it, but I do agree that there is no haste to it.

For sure is the base from which they crafted the current Smaug. The two are very similar I think they change colors and reshape some details. Knowing that General concept has the priority with respect to graphics, I'm however among those that think he deserves more. The team is perfectly capable to reshape the current one. At least important details like the head and armor for example, the current Smaug doesn't give so much the idea of a speaking dragon like the one of the movies: evil face, hypnotic eyes and so on.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Mai 2017, 21:38
Ah, I suspected that the ever-green debate centred on Smaug's model would haunt this thread again xD

I'm joking, obviously. All arguments and topics of significant note for the discussion should always be analysed and considered in the most thorough way. I myself have already forwarded in this thread my thoughts on the general matters involved, but I will gladly add my opinion on the most recent remarks.


I'll be quite direct now: my personal preference and likings gravitate around the AOTR Smaug, for it is quite undeniable, I guess, that it loyally mirrors the own vision of WETA, of which most of the international public are extremely fond. Smaug was in fact one of the pearls of the trilogy, if not its major jewel. Not only was the Dragon's overall role superb, but the final rendition on the very screen towered over many other characters and flaws. I wouldn't thus deem it improper, if I said that he is really something PJ and his entourage can be proud of.

Now, leaving aside personal tastes, the resemblance to the spirit of the cinematographic adaptation has always been one of the pillars of the Edain Mod and this obviously reflects on the actual game. Not all characters, sure, but not many of them have no connection whatsoever with our glorious films (apart from Angmar). In this case, the situation is even more apparent, as we are dealing with nothing more than the faction's most relevant hero, embodying the conceptual motive of an entire trilogy. Don't you think it's necessary to have a more WETA-like model? Imagine having the Necromancer, Thranduil, the Dwarven Company or the Defiler not have much in common with their cinematographic counterparts; a quite unfair and illogical eventuality. Nevertheless, albeit fantasising about it, I don't agree with the mere transposition of the AOTR concept into the Edain Mod, but some adjustments could be found, such as making the current model more robust and mightier (an impression that it doesn't give me, at the moment), alongside reworking his face. This is not a stringent priority, but it does have its importance.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 23. Mai 2017, 22:59
Ah, I suspected that the ever-green debate centred on Smaug's model would haunt this thread again xD
I Apologize DieWalküre, I didn't want to start an eternal loop  :D :D  ahahaha
Anyway, even if I love the idea of a unique new design, I would focus the attention to the general concept first. So I want to know your idea about it guys, for those who didn't share it yet  ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Azog The Defiler am 18. Jun 2017, 22:52
Hello peeps!

So i posted this thread on how to implement the evil botfa army (the current dol guldur orcs and botfa trolls):
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34748.0.html

The idea is basically to implement the actual gundabad fortress for outposts and have the botfa army recruited from there, the thread is just a longer version of the idea, but what do you guys think?
I think the misty mountains is the right faction for the botfa army, along with its leaders Bolg and The Defiler (Azog:),

Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: NoldorSithLordsShipwright am 24. Jun 2017, 12:22
Hmm, I imagine these troops would be different from the Gundabad troops recruited from a Gundabad tunnel like the Edain team originally planned?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Shagrat am 24. Jun 2017, 13:57
I was just rewatching Fellowship Of The Ring (as a matter of fact, it is paused at Lothlorien now :P), and while seeing the Cave Troll scene, I had an idea that I hope helps to spark discussion about MM again:

Cave Trolls only have their melee ability and rock-throwing ability, but... How about if, when Bolg is recruited and the Misty Mountains armies start to become organized, Cave Trolls unlock an option to either have the mace or the trident that we see in FOTR, earning new advantages if they unlock them, at the cost of their rock-throwing ability?

I've not made a deep concept, but I hope it can spark discussion!

the trident though was only used by the troll after Aragorn had stabbed it into the Trolls chest. It never was a weapon the troll had with him when he entered the Chamber of Marzabul.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Jun 2017, 22:07
I'm not very sure, but wasn't the trident an abandoned weapon in that hall, that Aragorn then wielded to hit the troll? If this is the case, the trident nonetheless belongs to Moria and could well be one of the troll's choices. Also, I know that this was the motive of BFME2, but raiding and pillaging others' warfare material/armoury is an interesting theme of the Goblins. The very structures of Moria are Dwarven buildings in ruin, captured by the Orcs.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Shagrat am 24. Jun 2017, 22:19
I'm not very sure, but wasn't the trident an abandoned weapon in that hall, that Aragorn then wielded to hit the troll? If this is the case, the trident nonetheless belongs to Moria and could well be one of the troll's choices. Also, I know that this was the motive of BFME2, but raiding and pillaging others' warfare material/armoury is an interesting theme of the Goblins. The very structures of Moria are Dwarven buildings in ruin, captured by the Orcs.
yes it was an abandoned weapon, but the only reason it even apepared in themovie, imho, was that Frodo had to be impaled since he had been by the Orc-Chieftain in the book.

I doubt that the troll would normaly use a trident... why should he? Using the hammer he can deal farmore damage on a far bigger area... or with a tree he ripped out of the ground etc. the Trident really is a weapon I don't see fitting for a troll
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Glorfindel23 am 24. Jun 2017, 22:48
Zitat
yes it was an abandoned weapon, but the only reason it even apepared in themovie, imho, was that Frodo had to be impaled since he had been by the Orc-Chieftain in the book.

I doubt that the troll would normaly use a trident... why should he? Using the hammer he can deal farmore damage on a far bigger area... or with a tree he ripped out of the ground etc. the Trident really is a weapon I don't see fitting for a troll

I agree I don't see the Trident as a weapon for a troll
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Jun 2017, 22:57
But that trident gives also the sense of a very loose and run-down weapon, which is normally used for hunting. It seems to be fitting for the whole wild context of the faction of which trolls are a part. It is also an abandoned item, that the beast decides to pick up and wield as a normal weapon, to ensure that the maximum damage be dealt. And that trident is indeed a more threatening menace than a simple blade. It might be implemented as an ability, be it temporary or not, in order to differentiate mountainous trolls; together with the fact that it could represent a tribute to FOTR. And I believe that the first chapter of the trilogy does deserve the utmost amount of tributes in the game.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 24. Jun 2017, 23:59
I think the trident could have a special purpose. Just like the hammer would be used to destroy masses of soldiers, the trident could be used by the troll to deal massive damage to particular units. That gives the troll a lot of purposes: He has his melee attack, his rock-throwing ability as a ranged weapon, the trunk as a low effectiveness weapon, and once Bolg has organized the armies of the Misty Mountains, they would get a chance to get the mace/hammer as a weapon to further improve their mass-slaying abilities, and the trident as a way to have a more damage dealing weapon that hits few (or only one) targets.

It would also reflect that aspect of the wild that DieWälkure said, it is really fitting that the Trolls of the MM would pick up whatever was at their disposal as a quick way to deal a lot of damage, the trident wasn't intended as a combat weapon, but they will use it in that way, because I think that's one of the main appeals of the Misty Mountains: going from a disorganized rabble that uses scavenged weapons but aren't quite a real army yet, to become a fully organized army under the command of Bolg that makes the most of the weapons and armor they took from others, and becoming a dreadful army that still uses what they happen to find, being totally different from the other armies of Middle-Earth.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Jun 2017, 00:10
Exactly. I back your points, Julio. I would also add that using the trident as a moderate hero-killer feature could be interesting. A special ability of cavern trolls. Yes, they are cavern trolls; I apologise, as I referred to the other kind in my previous post. I was talking about cavern trolls, of course :)

I would find such property really interesting. As Aragorn says, that trident would have slain and passed through a boar. At least, this is what he says in the Italian version ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 25. Jun 2017, 02:03
I would find such property really interesting. As Aragorn says, that trident would have slain and passed through a boar. At least, this is what he says in the Italian version ;)

I can confirm DieWalküre the Italian translation is loyal to the original script  :). Anyway I like the idea. In general we cannot consider a cavern troll as a creature fond to particular weapon as men, elves, dwarves could be :). They consider it more like a temporary tool. I don't see any bad if a troll can switch between different so to say "raw" temporary weapons, especially if we are talking about MM. And of course the damage shouldn't be so high :  they pick up  random objects but they are not well trained creatures. The trident could be a good way to deal good damage against heroes (as a parallelism with the sword of the mountain trolls of Mordor, which are instead well trained and deal very high damage).

if you look at the sequence, you can notice that the troll try to whip legolas using its own chain, as second example :D.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lfOnQD8Qif4 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lfOnQD8Qif4)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: NoldorSithLordsShipwright am 25. Jun 2017, 03:01
Given the "picked up" and worn out nature of the troll's weapons, I think any weapons it uses should be abilities.

Toggle Melee/Rock Throw
Chain whip: high knockback AoE, single use ability
Hammer/Tree Trunk: high damage AoE, timed ability, mutually exclusive with trident
Trident: high damage single target, timed ability, mutually exclusive with hammer

I also have a proposal regarding Smaug, but I'm thinking I wait 'till we finish this line of conversation.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Jun 2017, 22:22
Too much weapon choice could be counter-productive for the purpose, given the natural scarcity of forged mighty weapons that belong to the Goblins. In my opinion, that pick-up motive could be given life by means of a temporary ability, via which the troll picks up the trident and hits the target; according to the film, that trident was not a possession of the beast, and so implementing it as a toggle option might go against this relevant aspect.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 25. Jun 2017, 22:54
I like the option of making the trident temporary, as a brief switch in the Troll's role, but I'd say it should only be available with the requirement of Bolg or the Moria Chieftain.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 26. Jun 2017, 01:28
I agree with the idea of a temporary ability :) not as toggle weapon. I misused the term "switch". I can exclude the chain, mine was an example to better understand that the improvisation is an intrinsic characteristic of the cave trolls , at least concerning the movie :D. Julio I'm not so convinced to link the ability to Bolg. Because we cannot call it exactly an "upgrade" (as for example happen with the trolls of Mordor).

guys, As off-topic, but related to MM as well. Speaking about my personal taste, the design of Giants from vanilla is a bit weird, in my vision they need a rework. I just think the same about half troll, and if I'm not wrong the team removed them and also the spider riders because they don't fit for the new MM faction (totally agree with that).
Maybe I'm I too sticked with the traditional form of mountain Giants, the original one coming from Norse mythology (The Jötunn race). There is very little amount of material from the Tolkien's lore about this matter. Ah, just to make it clear from the start: no stone Giants from the movies, I agree they don't fit.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 26. Jun 2017, 21:52
I'm glad that a temporal ability sounds as a good solution. Even though I'm not particularly certain that binding this feature with something else would be appropriate. It is still supposed to be a loose possibility of the troll, isn't it?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 26. Jun 2017, 22:12
Seems fair, it is the decision of the troll after all :P

I think at least a level requirement should be good, to have that ability sort of come from the troll's improved ability to use whatever he can (more intelligence, I guess?). I'd be fine if it didn't have requirements, though, it's more about the options this can give to the player and the aspects of the Misty Mountains it reflects.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 26. Jun 2017, 22:26
I think at least a level requirement should be good, to have that ability sort of come from the troll's improved ability to use whatever he can (more intelligence, I guess?). I'd be fine if it didn't have requirements, though, it's more about the options this can give to the player and the aspects of the Misty Mountains it reflects.

I think a level requirement could be a good compromise. When the trolls rise up in rank they become more "intelligent" (so to say  :D :D).

P.s: Guys i apologize if i interrupted the discussion with the issue of giants design, the fact is that for now this is the only place where i can post my thoughts about MM. I'm also curious, am i the only one who don't like so much the vanilla interpretation?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 26. Jun 2017, 22:59

I quite like the vanilla Giant interpretation, but a Jötunn-esque interpretation would be cool, of course, and it would remind me of AoM so much :P I'd prefer the team to release the faction first and then decide if they want to change the unit, though, as it would require making a new model, texture and such.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 27. Jun 2017, 00:01
I quite like the vanilla Giant interpretation, but a Jötunn-esque interpretation would be cool, of course, and it would remind me of AoM so much :P I'd prefer the team to release the faction first and then decide if they want to change the unit, though, as it would require making a new model, texture and such.
Yes in fact i love the models from Aom. Of course that type of model would need a a bit of restyle to fit best with the goblins. They are always children of Morgoth(even if is not so clear in the books), so they must have some so to say "horrid" elements in the design.
Moreover we cannot forget the model must be also fitting with some animation (ents, or giants themselves) just present in game. To be sincere i also love the concept of Game of Thrones giants. There are some canonical elements (like the beard for example), which must be present in a giant model, at least in my vision ;).
 Let's see what the Goblins' storm will bring in the future  xD xD
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Jun 2017, 01:48
Ok, I find the idea of a requirement sound in principle. Maybe with the reaching of level 3?

Speaking about giants, I need make up my mind a bit. It's not that I would strictly stick to the vanilla interpretation, but I also find it hard to conceive another fitting solution. Mountain Giants from Age of Mythology look quite too much sophisticated for the context, whereas I always pictured giant-like creatures in Arda as hideous as trolls: not with a humanoid appearance (not too much, I mean) and with the usual repugnant characterisation. There's also the other typical wilderness factor that the current model embraces well, albeit being outdated. Anyway, should proposals arise, I would be definitely interested in following the debate :)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 27. Jun 2017, 11:05
Ok, I find the idea of a requirement sound in principle. Maybe with the reaching of level 3?

Speaking about giants, I need make up my mind a bit. It's not that I would strictly stick to the vanilla interpretation, but I also find it hard to conceive another fitting solution. Mountain Giants from Age of Mythology look quite too much sophisticated for the context, whereas I always pictured giant-like creatures in Arda as hideous as trolls: not with a humanoid appearance (not too much, I mean) and with the usual repugnant characterisation. There's also the other typical wilderness factor that the current model embraces well, albeit being outdated. Anyway, should proposals arise, I would be definitely interested in following the debate :)

I'm aware that the current model is anyway "wild" in his nature, but also a bit "cartoonish" and out of date imo. Aom giant is in fact impossible to insert as it is, is too much "humanoid" as you said, to fit with the goblins. But I like some canonical elements of tradition as I wrote, and a good model that is a match of the two vision would be fantastic :) the Edain team is the best especially in creating good compromise design :)
Anyhow guys, let's concentrate on other recent topic and sorry again for my parenthesis  xD
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Jun 2017, 01:15
The problem is that I can't seem to find many analogies between the two interpretations of the giant itself, nor possible scopes for the mountain giant being the inspiration for a new model. If we also consider the vision of WETA and the cinematographic continuum in representing troll/giant-like creatures, I don't really think that the motive of Age of Mythology should be transposed in the Edain Mod even slightly. It's just that I don't deem it a proper ground on which we might construct something innovative.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 28. Jun 2017, 01:33
I think I agree with that, just taking the AoM depiction (even though it'd be a fun nod) wouldn't work, and a Middle-Earth Giant should be like Walk said: Have a troll-like appearance, and I can't imagine a middle ground either. I'd like it if something new was done, but the vanilla depiction is also great (and evokes nostalgia) for me.

A bit off-topic maybe, but, one of the things that interested me the most was that AoM nod, it is one of my favourite games, and I always like seeing its influence in things. Erestor's system in 4.4, for example, has always reminded me of the Egyptian Pharaoh's resource-earning and buildtimes enhancement, a stationary and temporary version of it or something :P
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Jun 2017, 01:52
A right path to follow could be the attempt to adjust the vanilla concept by following the canons of WETA. Restoring the good and old tradition of Orcs and trolls: hideous, repulsive and totally gruesome :D

That's a smart thought! The kernel of that feature is indeed very akin to the pharaoh's blessing. Alas, the current ability is also flawed and, by consequence, the issue of replicas of the same hero in different castles is still persisting. Just like the New Realm upgrade of the Egyptians, that allows the player to play with two pharaohs at the same time :P
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 28. Jun 2017, 02:42
That's a smart thought! The kernel of that feature is indeed very akin to the pharaoh's blessing. Alas, the current ability is also flawed and, by consequence, the issue of replicas of the same hero in different castles is still persisting. Just like the New Realm upgrade of the Egyptians, that allows the player to play with two pharaohs at the same time :P

Weta is the best path to follow. It's the origin of everything from the movies xD. I'm sure we can find a very good solution, that matches different views, without abandoning the wild, gruesome and horrid aspect [ugly]. In fact what i do not like about the old design is that hump too pronounced and that long neck. Last but not least also the texture, if you look at the face / muzzle is not so good:


A bit off-topic maybe, but, one of the things that interested me the most was that AoM nod, it is one of my favourite games, and I always like seeing its influence in things. Erestor's system in 4.4, for example, has always reminded me of the Egyptian Pharaoh's resource-earning and buildtimes enhancement, a stationary and temporary version of it or something :P

Good comparison Julio, very fitting xD. If you do not mind guys this is the best Pharaon:


I don't actually know how many enemies can hit with a single strike  :D :D
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 28. Jun 2017, 03:26
Maybe a "soft" redesign can be done, making the Giant be closer to a hypothetical WETA depiction, but keeping the good aspects of the vanilla one. And that's true, its mouth looks strange  :D

Son of Osiris was the best :P I think you could have two Pharaohs and the Son of Osiris if New Kingdom was researched, like DieWälkure said. The number of Erestors is increasing fast  :D
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 28. Jun 2017, 13:08
Maybe a "soft" redesign can be done, making the Giant be closer to a hypothetical WETA depiction, but keeping the good aspects of the vanilla one. And that's true, its mouth looks strange  :D

Son of Osiris was the best :P I think you could have two Pharaohs and the Son of Osiris if New Kingdom was researched, like DieWälkure said. The number of Erestors is increasing fast  :D

I think you could have in the best situation one pharaohs + one son of Osiris, a very lethal combination especially against mythical units  :D :D

Just to suggest a final hint about Giants: Since we mentioned weta as possible source of inspiration, and to keep the standard of the repugnance of the Orcs, this big troll cuold be a good starting point:


It looks similar to the current one in some aspects, but at least it is far more up to date and realistic than the cartoonish version of vanilla :) even if it's still far from idea of Jötunn giant, I like it very much  xD
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Jun 2017, 14:04
Fair enough. I deem this solution an apt solution as well. Once we leave aside the whole grotesque touch of the Hobbit (of which trolls/giants were often the most evident symbol), we could indeed toy around with this initial source, and just the source I find very satisfying. So, if there's the will to craft something similar, I think we should start from this concept.

A concept that has very little to do with mountain giants. Sorry, Aulë xD
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 28. Jun 2017, 14:23
Fair enough. I deem this solution an apt solution as well. Once we leave aside the whole grotesque touch of the Hobbit (of which trolls/giants were often the most evident symbol), we could indeed toy around with this initial source, and just the source I find very satisfying. So, if there's the will to craft something similar, I think we should start from this concept. A concept that has very little to do with mountain giants. Sorry, Aulë xD

Well in my point of view the concept above is way more sober than, for example, this one:
Just to make one of many example of hobbit horrid things  :D. I don't want to see stuff like that too, I think you were referring to things like that  ;) or even the ogres are quite out of place:


Anyhow I can say the same about vanilla, which looks like a dinosaur in some aspect :P  :D
I think we could star from something like this DieWalküre, since badly there's no satisfying design which are both giant-tradition and match with the horrid nature of the Goblin  :(
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Jun 2017, 23:16
In this case, if you are content of the result, I will bear this WETA concept and the suggestion about the trident in mind. Additional topics that enrich the wide collection of this thread. Needless to say, once we're ready to loosen the boundaries of our imaginative spirit for discussions on the Misty Mountains, I will create a list of any element of valuable note that was brought here to the general attention. In the meantime, we shall wait a bit still ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 28. Jun 2017, 23:38
In this case, if you are content of the result, I will bear this WETA concept and the suggestion about the trident in mind. Additional topics that enrich the wide collection of this thread. Needless to say, once we're ready to loosen the boundaries of our imaginative spirit for discussions on the Misty Mountains, I will create a list of any element of valuable note that was brought here to the general attention. In the meantime, we shall wait a bit still ;)

I made researches but no design satisfy me for now :(. You are right DieWalkure sadly it is totally different with respect to my primal idea i wrote, but at least the caber buddy matches  in a good way the requirment you stated about Goblins (repugnance,horridness). if i was at least good in drawing i would create something, but sadly i'm not (i don't now how many years have passed since the last sketch i made  :D :D). If in the future i will come across something better and more traditional i will post here as an update. The Caber troll is good, of course consider it without its  trunk  :D :D

Among your many skills the ability to create list is for sure included. There are so many argument in only one thread, so a reader may be lost  ;). IN fact i have just noted that this thread has a number of comment one-two order of magnitude more than the other in [Edain] Discussion and Feedback  :D
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: NoldorSithLordsShipwright am 29. Jun 2017, 08:05
I think now's as good a time as any to present my proposal regarding Smaug's recruitment and his tribute system.

Of Dragons and Gold

There’s been plenty discussion regarding Smaug’s recruitment costs and balance, and how best to reflect both his unfathomable greed and cataclysmic power. I would like to present my own proposal in this discussion regarding Smaug. There are three parts to the proposal, but the third is the significant portion of this proposal, the first two probably already being the direction the Edain Team wants to head in.

I. Keep Smaug’s cost at 3,000

As some of you may already be aware, the AI does not really recruit anything worth more than 3000 gold. This cost, however, is understood by many to understate Smaug’s true value and many, including me, rightly fear that Smaug’s power would not be properly represented. To this end, I propose my next two steps.

II. Move Smaug to the Dragon Lair Outpost

Placed at a highly fought for position on the map, Smaug would effectively be more difficult to get, allowing him more power.

This also has some non-game justification – it doesn’t quite make sense to recruit a dragon from the depths of the goblin tunnels. Like how Tom, Bert, and Bill are tied to the Troll Cave on settlements, it makes sense to put Smaug with the rest of the dragon brood.

Side Note: due to the power of dragons as mass slayers, which would be much greater under the tribute effects (which I shall describe below), and due to the fact that dragons are pretty rare to begin with, I recommend that dragons be limited heroic units.
In addition to that, and to better reflect the greed of Smaug, as well as the greed present in all dragons, here is the third part of my proposal.

III. The Dragon Hoard and the Dragon Tribute System

As reported, the old tribute system, designed merely to keep the great dragon in play, proved prohibitively expensive and Smaug ended up underused.

The Tribute System I propose is meant to enhance Smaug and all the dragons you will recruit from your lair, but will not carry the risk of the dragons walking away from you if you fail to pay up, and will allow for weaker base values.

The Dragon Lair, in addition to being the place for recruiting your lovely and devastating fire breathers, can be upgraded to a Dragon Hoard and will then be equipped with tribute abilities of varying strengths, but for the sake of balance will also have a corresponding drain on your economy. The Hoard upgrade must be necessary to recruit Smaug (as it was Erebor’s obscene treasury that brought down the Calamity upon them.)

Gather Hoard: Cost: 3000. Upgrades the Dragon Lair to a Dragon Hoard, creating piles of gold around the structure. Allows use of Tribute Abilities. Leaves 2000 gold when destroyed.

Tribute Abilities

•Minor Tribute: A small portion of our income is given over to the dragon hoard. Amused with our offering, the dragons offer slightly more of their power to our cause. Allied dragons and Smaug have their combat experience gain boosted by 25% for 15 seconds. Allied resource buildings lose -15% production for 15 seconds.
o   Activation Cost: 375
o   Cooldown: 30 seconds
•   Moderate Tribute: A moderate portion of our income is given over to the dragon hoard. Pleased with our offering, the dragons offer moderately more of their power to our cause. Allied dragons and Smaug have their combat experience gain boosted by 50% and have their costs reduced by 10% for 30 seconds. Allied resource buildings lose -30% production for 30 seconds. Scavenger effects yield -10% less income.
o   Activation Cost: 750
o   Cooldown: 2 minutes
•   Major Tribute: A substantial portion of our income is given over to the dragon hoard. Well-pleased with our offering, the dragons offer much more of their power to our cause. Allied dragons and Smaug have their combat experience gain and attack damage boosted by 100% and have their recruitment costs and recruitment time reduced by -25% for 60 seconds. Allied resource buildings lose -50% production and Scavenger effects yield -30% less income for 60 seconds.
o   Activation Cost: 1,500
o   Cooldown: 8 minutes
•   Magnificent Tribute: All of our income is given over to the dragon hoard. Driven by our offering, the dragons offer all of their power to our cause. Allied dragons and Smaug have their combat experience gain, attack damage, and ability recharge speed boosted by 200% and their recruitment costs and recruitment time reduced by -50% for 2 minutes. Allied resource buildings lose -100% production and Scavenger effects yield -90% less income for 2 minutes.
o   Activation Cost: 3,000
o   Cooldown: 32 minutes

I hope this reflects both their indolence and the lengths they will go to for gold. Without much incentive (i.e. a share of your income) they have little reason to care for your cause, but once their greed (or their wrath) is invoked, they are more terrifying than hurricanes.

To balance all the experience gains, I think the experience gain of dragons should be low to begin with, especially for Smaug. An increase in experience can be described as an increase in their willingness to help our cause.

You’ll notice that not insignificant parts of your income are taken away by choosing to pay tribute, forcing the player to choose between increasing the strength of the dragons and filling out your army with more orcs. The activation costs are meant to represent the first tribute over the tribute time; you could think of it as the down payment. The cooldowns are to prevent spamming of the tributes, and represent your economy recovering from the strain of appealing to dragon greed.

Note that none of these tributes increase armor or health. Your dragons take just as much damage under Magnificent Tribute as under No Tribute. If you lose your dragons under a Magnificent Tribute, you will have no income outside of Scavenger abilities which are heavily reduced under the Tribute until the 5 minutes are up. If you still have gold left on you after paying the 3000, you may be interested in replacing your fallen dragons.

Note also that cooldowns take effect only after the tribute effect has expired, meant to simulate your economy recovering from the demanding tribute of the dragons.

It’s very possible that my suggestions may be excessive. If you find it so, I wouldn’t mind hearing suggestions on what could be improved.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 29. Jun 2017, 18:39
I retract my previous statement. Don't worry about lists or other things. My moderating powers will suffice. As Ilúvatar shall break Arda apart and retrieve the lost Jewels, I shall break this massive thread and split it into multiple ones, according to each suggestion :)

Only in the proper time.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 2. Jul 2017, 14:16
Dear Noldor :)
Imo the Dragon Lair it is the right place for Smaug :) I agree with this.
Regarding your system I'm sure you study it very well, but I'm not in favor of this: I sincerely prefer to have permanent improvements,not to spend resources to temporary have more strengthen dragons. I think we have to concentrate our effort on how to properly recruit Smaug and his brotherhood, not on a temporary strengthen when they are just on the battlefield.
The cost of 3000 is right I agree with that. But to unlock this recruitment I'd develop certain requirement, first of all the dragon lair must reach level 3. Secondly I will also link him with other upgrades as a necessary constrains to unlock him, but for now I have not a clear idea.
Regarding his leveling up system when is just recruited, maybe could be very fitting to connect him with some tasks like Sauron, instead of the classic battle gained experience :) of course these task could be something related to resources.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: NoldorSithLordsShipwright am 4. Jul 2017, 11:02
Hey Aulë, thank you for your input.

I considered making permanent upgrades, but I worried that with them being dragons and all, it would be too OP.

You bring up an interesting thing about the tasks, and I think the best way to differentiate this one from Sauron would be to tie it to their greed as opposed to tying Sauron to Mordor's power.

I think I can work my tribute system into this with purchasing each tribute necessary to get Smaug's level up while giving perhaps permanent boosts to the dragons as opposed to temporary ones.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 5. Jul 2017, 13:28
It seems Smaug has stirred up the interest of many who would see him and his gameplay improved, with the amount of proposals that are made, most with structured reasoning, but I feel that the ET has not yet been convinced. Yet it is difficult to know how they will create the Misty Mountains faction and how big of a role Dragons play so far. It makes building strong proposals difficult as we can only guess what line of reasoning they follow.

I see you have put some thought in this proposal, which is always appreciated, but I think you failed to consider the implications of your proposal if it were implemented. Let me explain below.


Good job so far! I hope this was constructive enough, else I will work on that.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: NoldorSithLordsShipwright am 5. Jul 2017, 17:04
It was very constructive, Garlodur. Thank you for your input.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 20. Jul 2017, 00:36
This may be a dumb question, but outside of Smaug and the Moria Goblin Chieftain--will there be any other heroes able to be recruited from the Moria citadel? I thought I heard the Defiler and Bolg were going to be from Gundabad, Bill, Bert, and Tom from a converted troll cave, and the Great Goblin from the Goblin Town outpost. So will we get only two characters plus the scout hero for Moria?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 20. Jul 2017, 17:43
Yes, I think that Moria won't have many heroes at disposal, because of its preponderant role in warfare and as the prime base of the faction. Perhaps, a Beta Tester who had the privilege to play with the Goblins, back at that time, could provide some insights. You should nonetheless consider that those official articles are now almost three years old. Many things may have changed and many other might in the future.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Isildurs Fluch am 13. Aug 2017, 14:10
I like the idea to get access to Smaug for something like 3.000 in the Dragon-Outpost, but than have to pay to keep him, this shows Smaugs independence from everybody. He just fights with you if he get´s something in return.
It also is a good factor of balance. To integrate Smaug authentically he has to be very powerfull. Normally this would mean he is very expensive aswell and thus limiting his appearance on the battlefield.

For me the system seems to be a bit complicated, I have another idea to get a similar effect:
The tribute-system is explained in a passive slot in the Dragon-Lair. The building has a negative ressource-production and is costing you over time. When it is destroyed it spawns a certain amount of ressources as treasure which increases over time, therfore making it more and more attracttive for the enemy to destroy it.
So if the player wants to go for dragons he has to defend this outpost very good, otherwise he is risking to donate his enemy his own ressources making this a risky strategy, but the power of the dragons should be worth it.
To avoid the situation, that the player is just building the Dragon-Lair to build Smaug and than destroy it to avoid the ressource-penalty, he loses controll other Smaug, when the building is destroyed.
Smaug becomes a neutral creep atacking everybody including the own units and buildings and dissappears after a short while.

Concerning Mountain-Giants:
I never liked the unit, because I think it´s a misinterpretation of the lore. Giants are in contrast to Trolls a very mythical unit, which isn´t really connected to Sauron or Morgoth. There is even a myth, that the whole Misty Mountains are one dead Giant if I remember it right.
It is also said, that Trolls are Morgoths depraved interpretation of the Ents, that means there should´t be a even bigger evil unit than Trolls. If anything they should be part of the spellbook.
I´d like the idea much more to have access to other Troll-races than cavetrolls through the other outpost, like Snow-, Hill- and Stone-Trolls. The -Stone-Trolls actually could use a modell based on the old Mountain Giants and fulfill a similar role.
With this the Misty Mountains would be the second factions with a focus on trolls even revieving the old Angmar-Trolls, but with a totally different system. Instead of using a centralised upgrade-system unlocked by the main-hero, they have access to another three troll-units with different functions regulated by controling an outpost and abdication of dragons.
It also matches well with another concept of mine about different troll-armours for the Mordor-trolls (link is under my banner).
I´ll post a concept to this topic very soon  ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 13. Aug 2017, 20:35
Isildur Fluch this is very lore friendly and I love it! The giant you refer to was actually the White Mountains and his name was Tarlang. Yes, I am interested in everything you said and I too agree with other trolls being the bases for the army instead of giants. The giants (whether you believe them to exist in Tolkien's work or not) are just as independent as dragons. They would need some type of trade system as well if going by lore.

Personally, I know you all hate me to say it, but because of lore, I have always been in favor of Durin's Bane being a playable character for Misty Mountains. It made more sense given that he was a general in Morgoth's armies (all 7 Balrog chiefs were), Dain II Ironfoot peaked into Moria and saw the Balrog there reinforcing the Goblins and he knew the Dwarfs couldn't penetrate into the mines (which makes you wonder why he let Balin do what he did), Durin's Bane has also been around since the dawn of time.

But Edain merely said that they don't want him outside of a summon. So we are left with this convoluted system of trying to incorporate Smaug. I even suggested that maybe for lore sakes that there be two timelines for the Misty Mountains, and all that would change is the heroes list. Heroes during the Hobbit and heroes during WOTR. If just going with the Hobbit timeline, you still could use the Balrog.

So Isildur I totally agree with you, as I feel this is the best and most lore friendly idea regarding the MM that we got. However, I would like to remind you, that Snow Trolls are mentioned about as much as the Hobbit's giants. There is really no record of them fighting in battles, but they clearly did since it is referenced here:

"During the Long Winter of T.A. 2758 and 2759 lied upon the fields of Rohan, Helm Hammerhand clad himself in white and stalked the camps of the Dunlendings "like a snow-troll", and killed many with (seemingly) his bare hands. It remained a legend in Dunland, striking fear and hatred into any who heard it."

I do feel that Snow Trolls and other trolls or ogres have about as much chance with the MM as the Giants, but I would be more for them for the lore reasons that you stated. Excellent ideas!
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Isildurs Fluch am 15. Aug 2017, 13:44
Concerning Durins Bane:
You are right, he definitly could be a recruitable hero for the MM aswell, even more so than Smaug. I guess the problem is, that he would be either to weak compared to his power or to expensive. It´s a very similar problem as with Smaug, with the difference that he has no affection for gold as the dragon so a system as I suggested wouldn´t make much sense.
What I could imagine is him being the MM-ringhero instead of or as an alternative to Smaug. I could imagine giving the pioneers (if they are still a thing) the opportunity to pick up the ring and bring it to the maintunnel in your base to get Durins Bane. That would be a permanent Balrog with some unique mechaniques.
I guess another problem was, that the Balrog has so few animation and would look weird if he stays a longer time. So a concept to integrate him must be very convince the team to bring this extra-effort to programm some additional animations for him...

Concerning Trolls:
Yes you are right, the different Troll-races are highly speculative, because they are not discribed very good in the lore. But one thing is clear: In contrast to the Mountain Giants they are definitly creatures of Morgoth.
This uncertainty of the Troll-races is also a huge chance, because it allows for creative ideas about concepts and background-storys as a foundation for the different specialisations of the Troll-races:
So every Troll-unit has it´s one purpose and the MM have taking in acount the tunnel-diggers in total 4 different siege units (5 with the dragons), so MM catches up with the other evil factions...
If people like my ideas, I will post them in a seperate thread as an general outpost-concept together with my dragon-idea. I also made a huge Smaug concept two years ago, which will be part of the concept aswell, but you have to wait a week, because I first need to invest my time in learning for a very big exam.

Another thing I wanted to talk about is the building design for Gundabad. They shall get the former building-design of the orc-faction, which I always disliked a lot, because it looked more like coming from a fairy-tale than from middle-earth. A much more sinister design would fit a lot better for Azogs home taking some inspiration from the short look on Gundabad we got in the BotFA:

The "Age of the Ring Mod" made a good start, as presented here in a video of Ruuddevil:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OJFHDHJhO0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OJFHDHJhO0)

Another question are the designs of Smaug and Bolg:
For Bolg I´m pretty unsure which design I like the most, but for Smaug the BOTTA-mod did it very well taking the Wyvern-Design:
I don´t really understand the complains about that design not being a dragon. In GoT Daenerys dragons share the same style with the frontlegs as wings and nobody calls the wyverns.
In my oppinion it is the much more realistic design, because no vertebrat in the world has 6 limbs. A dragon with those additional back-wings wouldn´t be able to flight at all, because he can´t use his pectoral muscles.[/list]
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 15. Aug 2017, 18:10
If my memory doesn't deceive me, I recall that the Edain Team has already expressed itself against the visual rendition of Gundabad from BOTFA. I think it was a statement of Gnomi, if I'm not wrong. That was a comment of some time ago, however, and I believe one could say that premises may have changed now, after the new changes we faced.

Besides, I myself am quite torn inside between the two choices: the concept of the Hobbit is not one of the best ones crafted by WETA's vision, but I don't really like the idea of having remnants of the vanilla in the game either, considering how loose and chaotic the Goblins were at that time. Should I have to choose, I would personally side with the cinematographic rendition, for the films have a prime status in the Edain Mod.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 15. Aug 2017, 18:55
If my memory serves me right, Tolkien himself made some "sketches" for the dragons. And those are the traditional dragons, not the wyvern-likes. I don't care what they'll do in the end, but this was the line of arguing. The team's opinion might have changed though, since it was Ealendril who brought this up.

Zitat
I would personally side with the cinematographic rendition
Which one? :D The LotR-cinematography or the Warhammer-Hobbit-cinematography? (Now it's obviously false to say the Hobbit uses this style exclusively, but the overdesign, overarmoring and overscaling of things is quite apparent. That's actually the thing: Watching some Total War: Warhammer LPs, I realized that the Hobbit movies partially but especially some more creative units from the Vanilla are heavily inspired by that fantasy setting. Stupid idea for the movie, great one for the game...)

And please don't bury my point under a general design-discussion about the Hobbit! It was merely to point out, that LotR and Hobbit use different cinematography / design concepts!

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 15. Aug 2017, 19:01
Hmm I am a bit divided on the ideas here. First of all, I agree with you guys that Mountain Giants don't fit into the Misty Mountains, because their allegiance with Sauron is not clear, so I definetly also agree that their role should be replaced by other Troll races. However, there are some things that should be taken into account with the roles and designs you proposed. I believe four types of Trolls is a bit too much, and I would reduce it to three, with the following attributes and designs:


This way all three Misty Mountains factions get their own kind of monster unit, each having their own roles and purposes. It makes them even more unique from each other xD.

So why no Stone-Trolls or Snow-Trolls? Well, Stone-Trolls are actually already in the mod, in the form of Bert, Tom and Bill (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Tom,_Bert,_and_William). The Stone-Trolls being represented as Heroes is good enough to me, and design wise they don't differ all too much from the Cave-Trolls. With all roles fullfilled, I don't see a reason for Snow-Trolls to be in the game. I personally don't like their design from RotWK (with the picks and small shields) as well. I'm not against them though; I actually don't mind them replacing the Mountain Giant's Outpost, and if they do, they should be as massive and tanky as the Mountain Giants are. They could be like the ones from the Shadow and Flame mod:

Concerning Gundabad, what I would like is that the base starts out as it is now (using the vanilla Goblin buildings). This because we can see that Azog and his Orcs in the Moria Battle from the first Hobbit movie look pretty primitive and tribal. The vanilla designs fit this image perfectly. However, we could give the Gundabad faction the option to upgrade it's fortress, so that it's main design becomes the same as how the Gundabad fortress looked like in the third movie. This goes perfectly together with the heavy armor concept for the Gundabad units and Trolls, where the Trolls get the Heavy Armor like I proposed here, and the Gundabad Orcs get this look:

Pfew it seems I returned to the forums with a bang :P. In any case, what do you guys think of this whole concept?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 15. Aug 2017, 19:54
Let me be clear, I agree with Isildur as it is more lore accurate. Though I would like the Balrog better (and Dagor Dagorath shows us that this is quite easy to do with Gothmog and other balrogs), I am not diametrically opposed to Smaug. I mean he would be cool even if his background really gives him no bases to be with the MM faction. Based on the reasoning presented by Isildur and the lore, I am content with Isildur's proposal if they are going to implement Smaug. However, I don't want him to look like a wyvern. I am against this, and personally he looks more like a Fellbeast to me.

So if Smaug is going to be put in. Do it right. Be as lore consistent as possible, and if the following cannot be implemented then I say go with the Balrog, since he was a bigger threat to the Dwarfs than Smaug anyways. That's my opinion anyways.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Isildurs Fluch am 15. Aug 2017, 20:21
First of all, I pretty much despise the idea of implementing Ogres into the mod. The only mention of Ogres is, when Bilbo remembers fairy-tales during the riddling with Gollum.
So this creature is pretty much made up by the movies, because they wanted to implement as much stuff as they could instead of focussing on the lore, what I would have prefered.
As I view it, Ogres are just another name for Trolls or a special Troll-race. In my interpretation they are similar to Hill-Trolls...

About the Stone-Trolls: I found PJs interpretation of Bill, Tom and Bert a bit boring, because as you said they seemed like just a bit more intelligent Cave-Trolls. For that reason I don´t find it that big a problem to just give them a different design as Bill, Tom and Bert.
It is not a fact, but more a suggestion, that Bill, Tom and Bert are Stone-Trolls. That´s all what tolkien-gateway has about them:
Zitat
Stone-trolls were a race of trolls in the service of Sauron. Not much is known of these creatures, except that they inhabited the Westlands of Middle-earth and that they spoke a "debased form of the Common Speech". It is possible that they were not actually living beings, but mere counterfeits made by Melkor, and they would return to their stone images once exposed to the light of the Sun.
Bert, Tom, and Bill — the trolls encountered by Bilbo Baggins and his companions on their journey to Erebor — were likely of this kind, as they spoke Westron.

The reason I implemented them was to replace Mountain Giants as a robust long-rage siege-unit, which is totally missing in your suggestion, but in my oppinion the most important one of the three.
The thing is, that the Troll-camp is supposed to be an alternative for the Dragon-lair, so it needs to give you a somewhat equal benefit. So I think 3 different Troll-versions plus a hero (BIll, Tom and Bert) is fine.
Cave-Trolls should be the only Troll-unit accessable without an outpost.

The Snow-Trolls are the least important part of the suggestion and I´m not a huge fan of their EA-design either, but find it still a lot better, than the WarCraft-Hill-Trolls...  :P
I just found it a nice opportunity to implement those and give them a usefull role, but if more people don´t like them this part can be removed or they could take the role of the Stone-Trolls with a different design.
The biggest problem of this discussion is, that everybody has different imaginations of the different Trolls, because the lore is so unclear about them. But as I said, this is also a huge chance...

Concerning Gundabad: When I remember it right, the team didn´t say they don´t like the style of Gundabad, but find it difficult to base a design on this short look we got from the movie. As I have shown there are other mods who made it possible and it looks a lot better than the EA-design, which is the worst in my oppinion. Espacially this dragondesign treasure-store looks very childish and unfitting for Gundabad...

PS: I didn´t like many Warhammer- or WarCraft-style in the Hobbit-movies aswell (especially the Trolls with blade-arms and all that stuff), but there are also a lot of cool designs so I think one must look at every design with no prejudice.

PPS: It is very difficult to base Smaug on the lore, because there is almost none information how he looked like and how many legs he had...
I find the four limb interpretation a lot more realistic, than the six limb-one, but am not stubborn about it aswell. If the majority of the community or the team likes another interpretation more, I´m fine with it, as long as Smaug get´s the place he deserves being a huge monster with enormous power. The only thing which is made clear about him is, that he was very big, stretching from one wall to the other and he is more compared to a force of nature, than to anything else, that means he has to be very powerfull aswell...  [uglybunti]
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 15. Aug 2017, 21:57
Hello Melkor! I kind of missed our frank and earnest discussions about pretty much anything, which often end up with being very proper occasions to agree disagree with one another :D

Which one? :D

Since I was referring to Gundabad, I was obviously talking about the controversial Hobbit trilogy. And I share a same opinion, at an extent, in regards of some visual choices that were evidently questionable; that's why the fortress could certainly have been conceived much better than it has been in the actual film. Nevertheless, I will reiterate my point: anything but the vanilla design, which honestly looks very much generic and reminds me of the time in which Goblins didn't have very much to boast in terms of uniqueness. And given that you also mentioned LOTR, I think that having an additional concept from BOTFA would fare well with the prominent design related to Moria, on which the main sub-faction is exactly fashioned. Let me in fact say how much I appreciate those concepts, which truly embody the iconic ruin/tomb theme of the trilogy (because those mines are really a very sad grave, alongside hiding lethal menaces in the darkness). So, the possible conjunction of these two aspects (the differing interpretations of both trilogies) might indeed work in favour of more diversity in the very faction. And this is obviously a very favourable of a scope.

And, no, don't worry. We won't bury you under fierce criticism connected to graphics; a field whose perceptions depend heavily on each person's tastes. Just, as Isildur has rightly written, even if there are flaws in our way, we ought to set out with a very constructive will to examine things and find solutions, without many prejudices about the matter. Prejudices that once were quite widespread in the past, if we are to take the Hobbit into account.

As for Smaug, the issue seems to have been fairly settled in the previous passages of this large discussion: yes, Tolkien did offer us a concrete representation of his idea of the dragon, which is the one entailing a canonical (based on medieval standards) four-leg dragon. WETA had nonetheless thought about a concept of that kind, at the beginning of the development process, that perfectly mashes the two visions together. And I can't see any defect in that either, satisfying this solution both sides of this debate.

(https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/4/40/Smaug_Pgs22_23Z.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140301202437)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: SilverElf am 15. Aug 2017, 22:53
Personally, I know you all hate me to say it, but because of lore, I have always been in favor of Durin's Bane being a playable character for Misty Mountains.

Because of lore you think the balrog should be a hero for the MM? Yes the balrogs were generals of morgoth, But the goblins were as afraid of the balrog if not more afraid of the blarog then the followship of the ring. They would feel in terror when the balrogs appears. There is no way that he would fight for the goblins what so ever so he wouldn't be a hero and itsn't lore friendly at all

Now i have a suggestion on my own, Because of that the goblins of moria are afraid of the balrog it would be intrestted to see that the balrog has a fear affect for both enemies and allies. That would be lore friendly for as i said the goblins are afraid of the balrog
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Isildurs Fluch am 15. Aug 2017, 23:46
Being afraid of their generals is pretty much a constant for all evil factions, in fact their soldiers are morivated by fearing their generals more, than the enemy. This is made very clear in the books, just look at how the Orcs view the Nazgûl. So that argument doesn´t really work...

In fact we don´t really now, what the Orcs and the Balrog did in Moria and why the Orcs stayed next to the Balrog, while they also could abbandon the regions where he "rules".
I could imagine them viewing Durins Bane as some kind of a god in the "Greek style", that means fearing and honoring him to the same amount.

From the Balrogs point of view it´s more difficult. Was he planing to do something? Would he have allied with Sauron if Gandalf had not destroyed him? Never forget that he is a Maia and not a stupid creature or beast...
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 16. Aug 2017, 00:38
Funny I would think Elf in Silver Armor who uses Glorfindel as an avatar to know more about Balrogs and their feats.  :D

Anyhow, as Isildur said, evil is ruled by fear. You could easily just use that argument for Smaug as the Balrog, one major difference is that the Balrog lived among all the Orcs for hundreds of years. Smaug had no orcs and the Goblins didn't go at Erebor until Smaug was already dead. So I don't see the basis for your argument especially since I am ok with Smaug, even if it is not lore accurate--but I would like to see Smaug implemented in the right way and I feel Isildur has done that.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Aug 2017, 01:21
I don't have a clear portrait of the relationship between Goblins and the Balrog in the lore, and some holes in the information provided were probably left to augment that sensation of obscurity which Tolkien fancies a lot (ever-present in tales of this kind). However, if we are to indulge in possible speculations, I would view things as PJ kind of wanted us to consider the Balrog and the environment he lives in. The cinematographic interpretation draws a quite clear depiction of the high hazard surrounding the Balrog, so that Orcs are too bound to flee for their lives in order to avoid such a deadly event. I would also follow in the footsteps of Gandalf's words, when he says that fouler things dwell in the deep places of Arda; a reference to Nameless Things that equally inhabit the forbidden spaces of the mines. Places which no Elf, Dwarf or Man could ever reach, just like that massive underground lake in which Gandalf and the demon fall. And even if Nameless Things are naturally different from the Flames of Morgoth, I can see a common quality that underlies them all. There is a sort of cruel neutrality or ancestral evil that characterises them, which doesn't take into consideration whether their victim is a servant of the Good or of Sauron; an akin case when Shelob devours Orcs with no mercy (a small-scale version of the blind fury and hunger of Ungoliant, who even tries to murder the source of all Evil in the world). Said that, and obviously remembering that Balrogs had pledged support for Melkor and that used to lead armies of countless legions, do you think that a millennia-old evil Maia would not be keen on acting completely unchained and loose, just like the monsters creeping in the water or Ungoliant jeopardising the very life of Melkor.

The awakening of such a dreadful creature is something totally out-of-the-ordinary for the schemes of Middle-earth and Sauron too. A deity of an ancient (lost and forgotten) era that is awakened in rage. A sudden and unexpected factor that no one may control nor expect; a peril which even forces Gandalf to abandon the imperative task to destroy the One Ring (Sauron), because the Balrog should never have trodden the ways of the grey and disenchanted Third Age. This is the vibe I get from the film. A general peril that in some ways endangers all and might disrupt everyone's plans (even the Evil's?). This is why the situational motive is absolutely paramount in the Moria sequence, and this can always be reflected by the very spell. A spell which portrays the Balrog for what he is, without binding him with defined limits. Because a Balrog awakening in the Third Age would probably be not so much interested in conquering, leading and establishing a domain, instead of Sauron that has always sought for the title of master of all Middle-earth. The difference is quite apparent: an atavistic force that doesn't respond to usual schemes, and an established enemy who plans his moves carefully with the utmost cunning will.

Game-wise, the spell fits perfectly with that situational essence of the cinematographic adaptation, and there is no need to balance the Balrog or to do away with some of his features; something that would probably happen, were he to be made available permanently, as a stable hero. The spells allows us to have him unchained and loose as he ought to be, even for limited time.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 16. Aug 2017, 02:17
I agree with Walk on the Balrog issue, a spell helps reflecting the Balrog's true nature more than having him as a permanent hero would.

I also think Smaug should be in the faction, but using a special system like the ones that have been discussed (completion of tasks, giving him tribute...) to help avoid characterizing him as a simple part of the Misty Mountains, and making him what he truly is: a weapon of mass destruction that is not bound to serve anyone, and will only help the armies of the Misty Mountains if there is something in it for him.

To put it in another way, just like greed brought him to Erebor, greed will bring him to help the armies of the Misty Mountains to succeed.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 16. Aug 2017, 02:35
Diewalkure, everything you just stated, could be applied to Smaug, X10, we have already said that Smaug is the ringhero so, the bases is on Isildur's ideas which I totally agree. But if anyone tries to say that Smaug is a better faction and more canonical leader/ringhero for the MM, I would strongly disagree as the Balrog dwelt with Orcs for hundreds of years and if he was as much a danger to them as the fellowship, then they would have been wiped out like the Dwarfs and Durin, pure and simple.

Kind of hard to say the Balrog didn't rule Moria, when the Orcs retreat into Moria after the Battle of Azanulbizar, why didn't the Balrog clean house when they retreated inside and Dain had a peek of the Balrog? Sorry but I don't see the Balrog just being a chaotic beast unleashed.

As for PJ version which you used as a bases, I would say the Orcs acting terrified of the Balrog is natural and akin to Orcs acting afraid of dragons or nazgul. I think (we don't have the black speech like we do in the Hobbit), but I always felt that the Balrog was issuing a challenge to the Fellowship and the Goblins honored their lord by stepping aside. Basically "Let me handle this."

As stated though, Smaug is what ET chose, so based on the lore and the way things must be presented, I like Isildur's ideas the best.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Isildurs Fluch am 16. Aug 2017, 11:06
As for PJ version which you used as a bases, I would say the Orcs acting terrified of the Balrog is natural and akin to Orcs acting afraid of dragons or nazgul. I think (we don't have the black speech like we do in the Hobbit), but I always felt that the Balrog was issuing a challenge to the Fellowship and the Goblins honored their lord by stepping aside. Basically "Let me handle this."
I totally agree with you. Of course the Balrog didn´t rule the Orcs as a Orc-king would. I guess for him the Orcs are more of a usefull tool than anything. Alarming him when anyone dares to enter his realm, like the Fellowship did and helping him to take out his enemys for example the Dwarves.

I interpret the scene in Moria in the following way: As much as Gandalf was sensing the Balrog, the Balrog noticed him as a hostile powerfull Maia and possibly the One ring. That was the reason he appeared and didn´t let the Orcs do the dirty work for him, as with Balins company. He wanted to destroy Gandalf and maybe also take the ring.
For this possible interpretation I´d love to see him as a ring-hero, because he seems to me like the most likely candidate. The ring would than allow him to stay permanent on the Battlefield and his name is changed to Durins Bane.
Integrate him as a normal recruitable hero would be impossible, because he would either be to weak or to expensive.
I´m not sure yet how he could be different to the spell-book Balrog, because just staying permanent seems a bit to boring for me, he should at least get a passive ability or something.

Smaug could be an alternative ring-hero, whith a mechanique were you can put the ring into his dragon-lair. I wnts made a concept about this, but need to update it, because of the changed ring-mechanique. I will do it in one week after my exam...  ;)

Is it possible to split this thread in different threads? At the moment we are discussing to many topics at the same time and it gets  kind of chaotic  [uglybunti]
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: SilverElf am 16. Aug 2017, 12:48
It is more likely that smaug would fight for sauron then the balrog.

What does smaug desire? the awnser is gold. That is the whole reason he went to erebor for the gold. What can sauron offer Smaug? The awnser is gold agian. So smaug could fight for Sauron in return for alot of gold. Maybe all the wealth of the dwarves.

The only thing the balrog desires is the be left alone, Afther Morgoth was defeated the balrogs went into hiding. We don't know how many there are in the third age. We only know of durins bane. If the dwarves never mined to deep in Moria, Durins bane would have stayed in hiding. The only reason he came out is because he was disturbed while he was hiding there by the dwarves. The only other reason the balrog would come out of hiding is if morgoth returns. He would never go out of hiding to fight for sauron or any goblin. He just wants to be left alone intill Morgoth returns so he can fight for him agian  :)

The balrog shouldn't be a hero. As you said he a maia if he was a hero he loses the power that the balrogs has. It loses his impact he has when you summon him making it that he can destroy armies with it in your greatest need, When you are about to lose you summon him. And you push your Enemy back so you giving you another change to fight and retake the land you lost and defeat your enemy. You don't have that if he is a hero. He is a corrupted Maia he should feel strong but if he is a hero he loses that that
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Isildurs Fluch am 16. Aug 2017, 16:18
If the Balrog only wants to be left alone, why isn´t he just staying in the deepest dungeon of Moria? Why did he atack the Dwarves and the Fellowship? Ok, the Dwarves kind of forced him out of hiding, but he could have simply killed the few Dwarves that found him instead of destroying the whole kingdom. His atack on the Fellowship, which was really no threat for him definitly proves that hiding isn´t his main intention anymore.

The lore says, that the Dwarves awakened him, so I guess instead of hiding like a minor creature he was kind of sleeping, waiting for the return of his master.
Yes he wouldn´t fight for the Orcs, but rather let the Orcs fight for him.
For Sauron it´s a different story, because Sauron was Morgoths right hand and had most likely a superior rank to Durins Bane in Morgoths forces and you can be sure they knew each other. If I remember it right Sauron send the Orcs indirectly to Moria of course to keep the Dwarves out and very likely also as a kind of gift to the Balrog.
In the style of: "Here do you have an army. Use it!"

I think if Sauron would have become stronger, Durins Bane definitly would have allied with him to defeat his masters enimies end to end his time of hiding once and for all.
I guess he felt the growing darkness after he was awakened by the Dwarves and had the desire to take a role in the upcoming events.
There are also theories claiming that Gandalf knew of this possibility and therefore decided to confront him instead of only ensuring the Fellowship can escape. It´s not that he really tried to run away, although he definitly was afraid of him...

For a normal recruitable hero you are right, the Balrog would definitly be to powerfull, but for a ring-hero he is very suitable and definitly not overpowered compared to ring-Sauron or some other ring-heroes. Never forget his weakness for magical damage, if you exploit that, the Balrog is very destroyable.
The overall dynamic of the Balrog-role in the faction wouldn´t change at all, because you still require a ring additional to the spell to summon him permanently...
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Aug 2017, 16:37
Correct, Blue. I was in fact mainly referring to how PJ has built the whole scene and the feeling behind all that. It is a representation that is probably meant to focus on the theme of digging into the past and awakening an ancient evil. This is also conveyed by the words of Saruman that serve as a warning for Gandalf, in that Dwarven green had awakened something that should always have been buried in the darkest depths of Arda; in addition to that, the wizard's knowledge is wide and perfectly aware of the presence of fouler foes in the mines. Conceptually speaking, Moria symbolises the maze and a perilous pit in which all sorts of horrors are hidden. And I think that the director purposely left some kind of uncertainty in the sequence, which portrays things slightly differently from the lore, as if the Balrog had been awakened again by the coming of the Fellowship (and the very presence of Gandalf).

Set that aspect aside, I imagine that the lore and its usual degree of obscurity does not provide us with a very clear of a response. I mean, it seems to me that it doesn't clarify with enough details the actual nature of the relationship between Goblins and Durin's Bane: whether the latter was regarded as a true leader and monarch-like authority along those ruined halls. And whether the Balrog would manage things as the head of a realm, similarly to Sauron in Mordor, or whether he was instead dreaded as an ancient deity from which it was wise to stay afar. I would personally lean on the last perspective, which is very much in tune with how Orcs fear as well the Maia's gruesome power (what I saw in the film was pure terror indeed) and with how creatures from the First Age are generally deadly for anyone standing near them. Not that the Balrog is keen on exterminating Goblins too, but he probably tolerates them infesting Moria, as long as they do not disturb him; the mines are exactly a silent place, as a solitary grave. I therefore believe that the simple rendition of the films resolves this lack of information, alongside being in line with the dangerous-deity motive I mentioned previously. A motive reinforced by the fact that the Balrog embodies another era and much different standards; his only master was confined in the Void and this might also suggest that the Maia, having no clear boundaries of allegiance, plays a very loose and unchained part in the balance of power of Middle-earth. His awakening was something unexpected for the most, his potential goes beyond the schemes of the Third Age and his intentions are for the most part unknown. He surely could have decided to aid Sauron, had Gandalf failed his mission, but I doubt that setting up an own realm in the Misty Mountains could ever be seen as a reasonable goal for him.

To state it plainly and in simple terms: he's not an alpha (a king), nor is he a beta (a creature with a servitude-like relationship with a leading figure, being Melkor gone). He's instead an omega, responding to no one but himself and representing a legacy of an ancient world which is no more. Unpredictable, solitary and thus potentially dangerous for all (in different terms, but dangerous nonetheless). Akin to Ungoliant, as I pointed out, with the differences of the case. And, although Smaug could surely fall in some of these categories (independence that is to be hopefully shown by a tribute system), the problem is that he's very much into the geopolitics and history of the Third Age. His coming was unexpected, but his very existence was not entirely forgotten by the common knowledge. Furthermore, the Hobbit and the additional details of the Appendices tell us that the White Council's assault on Dol Guldur was planned by Gandalf to avoid the Necromancer and Smaug joining forces (an eventuality that terrorises Gandalf). Thus, we have hints that indicate the likelihood of an alliance between the two, as the Grey Wizard feared; and Smaug is shown capable of joining Sauron's side in a hypothetical war. What we are not told in regards of the Balrog, whose essence is indeed an omega-type one (in the context of the Third Age, of course) and truly situational, which only a situational spell may embody for the good.

By the way, since we are talking about Ring heroes, while Smaug's greed might lead him to desire the One Ring and use it, how could the Balrog ever desire the possession of such artefact? An artefact which is supposed to give back to a depleted Maia his past prowess (after defeats and tragic losses of magic), or to exponentially enhance whoever is to wield it. Yet the Balrog is no depleted Maia, has no restrictions on his power or on his intrinsic being (contrary to Sauron or to Gandalf) and boasts a perfect (or almost perfect) physical/spiritual shape. And he is a Maia, obviously. Which effects could the One Ring have on him? I think the answer would be the same if we imagined Melian, Eönwë or Valar as Varda and Manwë making usage of the One Ring: no effects. It doesn't have logical sense, for the One Ring itself, albeit menacing the people of Middle-earth, could never do anything to make the Maia stronger than the very Maia already is (with full powers, I specify again). Apart from the situational essence of the films and the gameplay reasons that Elf has referred to, I find the idea of giving the One Ring to a Balrog inconsistent in principle. Just like giving that artefact to Morgoth.

Regarding the thread, I feel it ought to remain like this still, because we are addressing many elements at the same time. I would deem it wise to open new threads only if there is a finalised concept to present.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 16. Aug 2017, 17:29
To Walkure and and Elf in Silver. I think getting hung up on the semantics of whether someone would fight for Sauron is irrelevant. As Isildur suggested, the Balrog no doubt sensed what Gandalf was and what the One Ring was, as you stated Walkure, this would be a very capable thing for him to do since he is a full Maia. However, you also stated how could he use the One Ring. Well he does have restrictions, I mean a Fallen Angel is fallen, and therefore is not as graceful or lordly as they were of old. So I would say the One Ring would restore to him what was lost and make him appear more graceful and return him to a more powerful (yet beautiful form). I do agree however, that the One Ring wouldn't do much for the Valar given their power levels already, but those are much higher than any Maiar. Also the Balrog being an Asocial isolationist, i also disagree with since he killed Durin single handedly, and he caused Nimrodel and Amroth to flee from his presence. Somehow many knew that the Balrog was in Moria and he was just an important catalyst to many characters fate in the books, to where Smaug killed Girion. Durin's Bane killed: Durin VI, Nain, Gandalf, (Indirectly) Nimrodel, Amroth, and we could hypothesize more during the First Age as well. Smaug is a young dragon and was not from Angband.

With the Balrog, he is much in the same boat as Saruman. He is the ruler of Moria, I mean Balrogs were generals and leaders of armies we are saying he just threw that to the way side just to be left alone? That seems highly unlikely given the nature of Balrogs and the lore.

Now to address the fighting with Sauron (which again is irrelevant for factions that can be pitted against one another in a BFME game). Gandalf feared that Smaug would end up fighting for Sauron (he is a young dragon), the Balrog has a past history of fighting for and with Sauron also under the banner of Morgoth, which is a much more heavier piece of information that Gandalf's hypothetical fear. A past history is a better indicator of something happening than a fearful event.

To me, based on what Walkure and Elf in Silver said, I like the idea of the Balrog being the Ring Hero even more now. Why would I want someone who is automatically licking the boots of Sauron? Why not have someone who is semi allied but would be willing to stab in the back at the first moments notice (like Saruman). It also fits for the placement of a hero for this particular faction.

I think people here misinterpret what I am saying and all that I am saying is based on the lore and background of the Balrog, story, and Smaug, and therefore I feel the Balrog would be a better ring hero and faction leader for MM than Smaug (especially since he exists throughout the Hobbit and up to the WOTR).

However, Edain has already stated that Smaug is the faction leader, so why continue on this? Smaug IS the faction leader because that is what ET chose so the discussion on the Balrog vs Smaug is irrelevant, however, the facts speak for themselves and it is obvious that the Balrog would be a more canonical leader than Smaug. To where Smaug would be more of a summon under the command of Sauron.

Since Smaug was selected, and like Elf in Silver said, all Smaug cares about is Gold, I mean he wouldn't even use the One Ring, heck he didn't even sense it in the Hobbit book. Smaug cares about quantity and not quality he never gave priority to the Arkenstone nor any other special CUP or jewel, his attention to detail lacked and the only way he would fight and ally with Sauron is threw intimidation and gold.

So as stated innumerably we can summarize this. The Balrog fits better overall for the faction and Ring Hero, but ET selected Smaug instead of the Balrog, end of story. Given that this was done, we must present something canonical to make up for this decision, and that is Isildur's ideas which I TOTALLY AGREE WITH.

EDIT: In reality, I don't mind Smaug being in the MM faction, but Smaug being a ring hero makes about as much sense as Tom Bombadil being the Ring Hero for Arnor or a faction of Hobbits and Unicorns. Both characters did not care about the One Ring and both would have just ended up losing it. As evidenced by the Arkenstone being right under Smaug's gold pile and nothing was done with the Artifact that supposedly crowns all and brings the Dwarfs together.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 16. Aug 2017, 19:03
Let's not forget that Ring Heroes should be recruitable on the battlefield for them to use the ring. This means that if the Balrog is a Ring Hero, that it also means that it can be recruited whenever the player wants it. I'm very against this idea, because the Balrog is far too OP for it to be just a regular hero by itself. One could say that he could be made weaker, but that doesn't do this ancient and terrible creature any justice. The Balrog is meant to show everyone the terror of the First Age, a general of Morgoth's armies, just like Sauron was. Something like that is not meant to be a regular recruitable hero, but it fits perfectly as a last tier summon power. Blue Wizard said rightly that Smaug is just a young Dragon, but that makes him much more fitting as a recruitable hero than the Balrog would be.

Furthermore, you can speculate all you want about the Balrog's agenda in Moria, but at least Smaug's intentions are much clearer depicted. There are hints that show that Smaug would fight under Sauron's banner, like Walk said, and that he could lead Sauron's armies into battle. So lorewise there is already more certainty that Smaug would fit better as a faction leader than the Balrog, whose agenda can only be speculated.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Isildurs Fluch am 16. Aug 2017, 20:42
I never said I wanted to see the Balrog as regular hero, but there could be systems apart from the known systems.
I would suggest the following: MM is the only faction with a unit, that can pick up the ring. This unit could be the pioneer (a builder unit) or an additional one if that is ímpossible. I also could imagine some kind of a shaman-unit which can place totems on the map (like Gorkil did) and collect the ring.

In both cases the player would have 2 choices:
I´m not sure if anything of this is actually possible, but if not we may find solutions and working systems.

In one week I´ll present a more detailed concept about Trolls, Dragons and Durins Bane, when I have the time to write it in detail...
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 16. Aug 2017, 21:15
Speaking spefically about the Balrog part in your concept, why would the player need a special unit for it to get the Ring? Wouldn't it be better to just have the summoned Balrog pick up the ring by itself? In any case, the big problem with this concept is that the Balrog is a final tier summon, meaning that the player first has to aquire a ton of spellpoints, before he can call upon the creature. Chances are that within that time the opponent already got his hands on the Ring trough his own Ring Hero; specifically Gondor, where the player can get Boromir or Denethor for a (relatively) very cheap price. With that, the opponent could have already defeated the Misty Mountains player, before he could even get enough command points to summon the Balrog. The Misty Mountains player just has far less chances than other factions to get its Ring Hero.

And my point still stands, the problem with having the Balrog as a permanent hero, regardless of it having the Ring or not, is that it has to be significantly nerfed in its powers. Right now it can destroy armies and bases, as he should be able to, but if he becomes a permantent hero, it also means that he needs to be nerfed, so that the opponent still has a chance to win the game. Like I explained in my post before, the Balrog should in my opinion absolutely not be nerfed for this purpose. A temporary summon fits perfectly with the Balrog, because that way it doesn't need the nerf, and can remain the ancient horror it deserves to be. One might say that it can be countered by heroes like Gandalf, but not every faction has a hero or unit that can counter the Balrog.

Perhaps some other ideas will come up in the concept you are planning, but as of right now, I personally don't see any way for the Balrog to become a permanent hero (with or without Ring), because of above described arguments.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Aug 2017, 21:37
However, Edain has already stated that Smaug is the faction leader, so why continue on this? Smaug IS the faction leader because that is what ET chose so the discussion on the Balrog vs Smaug is irrelevant, however, the facts speak for themselves and it is obvious that the Balrog would be a more canonical leader than Smaug. To where Smaug would be more of a summon under the command of Sauron.

Since Smaug was selected, and like Elf in Silver said, all Smaug cares about is Gold, I mean he wouldn't even use the One Ring, heck he didn't even sense it in the Hobbit book. Smaug cares about quantity and not quality he never gave priority to the Arkenstone nor any other special CUP or jewel, his attention to detail lacked and the only way he would fight and ally with Sauron is threw intimidation and gold.

EDIT: In reality, I don't mind Smaug being in the MM faction, but Smaug being a ring hero makes about as much sense as Tom Bombadil being the Ring Hero for Arnor or a faction of Hobbits and Unicorns. Both characters did not care about the One Ring and both would have just ended up losing it. As evidenced by the Arkenstone being right under Smaug's gold pile and nothing was done with the Artifact that supposedly crowns all and brings the Dwarfs together.

I wouldn't list all of these reasonings as inexorable facts, given that they are opinions and speculations as much as mine or the ones of other people are. I understood that you don't oppose the choice of Smaug being the atypical leader of the faction. But I also believe that this decision has too its reasons in the lore and canons. Not Hobbits and unicorns, but a sound concept.

A concept usually has the lore, the resemblance to the films and gameplay as its prime pillars, on which everything is then constructed. While gameplay and films make the current design the wisest solution, as it was explained multiple times by the developers and for the reasons I and Fredius stated in the previous passages, the problem lies in the mazes of the lore, which both seems to favour one or the other theory. In my view, taking into account the generalities of the disenchanted Third Age and the nature of the Ainur, Smaug is the most fitting for such role, and for the whole motive of desiring the tenure of the One Ring (which I find very controversial, if it is applied to the Balrog). I question some of your conclusions, Blue, as you would probably question mine, yet I'm also conscious that this degree of thorough speculation about the lore might lead astray or make it hard to find the exact just answer; especially, if obscurity pervades these tales, the case gets inevitably tougher. And it's not rare that contradictions are present in Tolkien's writings. But I don't want to drag you in infinite debates on the canons; there is the Prancing Pony section for this purpose and I gladly invite you there, where we have all the space and means at disposal for this typology of discussions. I think it would be interesting to deal with these matters under a speculative perspective, with people with a solid knowledge as you. I gently disagree with you and I shall rest with my case.

Addressing the essence of fallen angels, they are not weaker due to their very definition of being fallen angels; they have had their nature and powers twisted and marred, of course, but in no way are they weaker just for that. Ainur have their might weakened or halved when they pour their energy into material catalysts to channel their power (like Morgoth with Arda or Sauron with the One), or when they undergo tragic events as a physical destruction of their body, which leaves wounds that may not be deleted. The act of siding with the Evil has instead no depleting influence on them, and the fact of retaining a blessed nature doesn't make one stronger either: the Balrogs were never inferior to the other Maiar by default, just like Melkor is no lesser Vala than their fellow Archangels (he was even mightier than all the other Valar combined, at the beginning of the wars between them). I thus reject the idea of weakened Balrogs, since they never faced a physical death, nor have they ever tried to channel their power in some ways via material means, therefore rendering Durin's Bane the only Maia in the Third Age on whom were not placed restrictions of any sort. This is nonetheless my personal stance, as I personally regard the broad lore. Not just lines or single events, but the broad picture.

On the other note of the topic, the most relevant for the game, I do see that you and Isildur want to come up with a decent outcome, even though you would probably have Smaug and the Balrog switch their position. As you rightly pointed out, Blue, Smaug is an omega-type character equally, and that's why a fair degree of independence from the faction will certainly benefit his actual characterisation, conveying the idea that he acts for his own interest and desire. Henceforth, although the dragon is to be a regular hero, a smart system and some restrictions will evaluate his role more, remaining the most loyal possible to the canons and the films. I just wanted to say that the planned design has too logical arguments behind, and that it's not a mere arbitrary decision.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 16. Aug 2017, 21:48
From a gameplay-perspective, both have a similar role and similar abilities, so I am personally indifferent who goes where and does what. However, we know more about Smaug than we know about Durin's Bane as a character, which makes it easier to flesh him out as a hero. I believe ET will keep Durin's Bane as a summon, but what will happen to Smaug is yet unclear.

Furthermore, I also think that Smaug is a bit easier to balance as a hero, since his kit will likely have other abilities besides straight damage output (as in the usual fashion of Edain), like a hypnotic gaze which dragons were well-known for, unlike the Balrog with his current BFME spells. He also has the ability to fly making him weaker to arrows like all fliers, although I believe, unlike Fellbeasts, his thick dragon skin will likely warrant some kind of arrow damage reduction while flying.

Generally, I believe it is easier for the team to work with Smaug as a recruitable hero since the Misty Mountains were originally designed as a faction to be able to accomodate a dragon in their roster, namely Drogoth.

I don't know if ET will stick with the original kit they planned for 4.0 Smaug, which can be seen in this old post here: http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two

I am just glad Edain is going to flesh out his kit more as a dragon, rather than just keep a lot of abilities that amount to ''do more damage''.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: SilverElf am 16. Aug 2017, 22:13
The balrog doesn't desire the one ring at all. There is no where stated that he want it and that he wants to use it on anyway. The Balrog is merely waiting to morgoth to return as a said so him making a ring hero seems just weird for he would never leave moria and fight for sauron.

As for the statement that the blarog is the ruler of moria, Where did you get that from. Ever since the goblins went into moria they had an orc as leader. See azog he was the leader of moria.

"Azog, known also as the Defiler and the Pale Orc, was an orc who lived in the Third Age. He commanded the tribes of Moria from TA 2790 until his death in TA 2799. "

"Azog then called out that he had killed Thrór , and that he now ruled Moria as king. His name in runes was carved onto the brow of Thrór, forever branding it into the hearts of the Dwarves."

During that time the blarog was already walking in moria so he wasnt the ruler but it was azog. And probley during the war of the ring the goblins would have found a new commander and king of moria which isn't the balrog.

We dont know who the leader is of moria during the war of the ring. If edain adds a leader in for moria goblins it will probley just be an orc and who knows what.

An the other hand smaug. He would be perfect for a ring hero, Smaug desires gold. What is the one ring made of gold. He loves gold. He would take the ring even if he doesnt sense the power of the one ring he would still take it because it is made of gold. And once he has it the ring will do his job and make smaug stronger with the power of the ring even though smaug never intended that. So smaug being ring hero isn't that weird

Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 16. Aug 2017, 22:52
Due noted from all of you. When the lore gives you facts turn to gameplay. It is the way it has always been and I have seen it before. On the bases of said arguments, I will also state this to Walkure.

You feel the Balrog is at full potential, okay, and you say Sauron has lost part of himself when putting himself in the ring or during the fall or numenor, or during his defeat at the War of the Last Alliance, due noted.

So Walkure you are saying that the Balrog at his full potential is greater than Sauron when he initially poured himself into the ring? Or are you saying that the Balrog is SO powerful that he wouldn't get a boost in power even though Sauron was that much greater than him? If I were to go by the lore and what you have stated, I would have to negate the line in the White Rider: "I am Gandalf the White, but black is mightier still." Gandalf the White states this after his battle with the Balrog and after he wrestled with Sauron in magic. Sauron has and always will always be greater than the Balrog and if he can be boosted by the Ring back to his original levels of power, then I don't see why the Balrog couldn't be boosted to Sauron's level given that he was lesser to him initially anyways. You used Ungoliant as an example, both she and Morgoth both wanted the Silmarils and both would have gotten a boost in power cause of it (example of Ungoliant draining the light of the trees and wells). Appearing lordly and more graceful can have an affect on morale of the enemy and your allied forces as you guys have stated, just because someone is very well rounded doesn't mean they are more powerful thus the ring would still have a minimal effect on the Balrog but a great effect overall.

Speculation, of course, there is no more speculation than what is given for the reasons of the One Ring not working for the Balrog. But again I must reiterate myself. If Smaug is to be implemented then it must be done as Isildur requests and which I agree with.

But understand this, I don't care if Smaug is the main hero of the faction, I don't care if he is a ring hero, what I do care about is lore and since the ET went against the lore, and have Smaug being the Ring hero then adjustments to be made to make it more lore friendly, and it must be implemented, otherwise as stated earlier, you might as well do a faction of Hobbits and Unicorns with Tom Bombadil being the Ring Hero and justify it by speculations and holes in the lore as well.

Both Tom and Smaug would not and DID NOT care about the ring and would just end up losing it. So bring it to Smaug's treasure trove wouldn't be such a bad idea.

As far as Fredius's words about the Balrog's playstyle, nerfing, etc. Dagor Dagorath implements the Balrogs perfectly without much error, and I do have a counter for Durin's Bane and Smaug, it is called Silverthorn.

"But this is a hypothetical scenario." okay how about this, Smaug catches Bilbo in his lair and burns him to a cinder. The ring is there and he goes back to sleep until Sauron contacts him and gets the ring back. End of story.

Also if Smaug is the ring hero, what's he gonna do, eat the ring like Shelob? In that case he should have it on a timer until such a time that he defecates the ring out. Feel sorry for the next ring hero that finds the ring after that LOL  :D

NO, I am content with Edain's decision to make Smaug the Ring Hero if that is what they want to do, but there is more in the background and lore about the Balrog of Moria than there is about Smaug (Three Ages vs One Age). If Smaug is implemented then do it the right way and that is all I am saying.

From Fredius: "One could say that he could be made weaker, but that doesn't do this ancient and terrible creature any justice. The Balrog is meant to show everyone the terror of the First Age, a general of Morgoth's armies, just like Sauron was. but that doesn't do this ancient and terrible creature any justice."

And Smaug who is the greatest and most terrible of calamities is nerfed and this does him justice. Okay Fred. Sauron is also from the First Age, Treebeard is from the First Age, Galadriel is from the First Age, Celeborn is from the FA, Cirdan...do I really need to go on? None of these are asked to be nerfed, nay, Galadriel and Sauron are asked to be upgraded, I even supported a post on that. So the bases for the argument of Smaug vs Balrog is gameplay, pure and simple because there is NOTHING in the Lore that states or hints that Smaug would be interested in such an artifact and there is more in the lore regarding the nature, history, and powers of the Balrog which would be suitable for him to be the faction leader.

So what I have proven so far with no rebuttle:

1. The Balrog is not an isolationist given Nimrodel and Amroth's death and everyone knowing about his presence (also he knew the endless stairs of Moria too well, so obviously he maneuvered around and got to know Moria very well), and he slew many heroes.
2. The Balrog is not a mindless chaotic beast, as stated in the lore they were generals and Maiar of terrible power.
3. The ring would have an effect on the Balrog whether it be grace or power, and being a Maia he could utilize what Sauron poured into.
4. The Balrog could be and could have much potential for being the faction leader and ring hero as Smaug, but Edain said otherwise.

In conclusion, you are all getting what you want even if it isn't canonical for Smaug to utilize the Ring or care about it. You guys get that plus the ability to play a dragon. Something you got to do in vanilla BFME2, ROTWK, oh and many other mods.

So despite the canon depravity and clear flaws that any true Tolkienist could point out the subject of Smaug staying and acting as a hero/Ring hero remains. So do it canoncially and I'll support it, if not canonical then I am against it as I have always been.

EDIT:
The balrog doesn't desire the one ring at all. There is no where stated that he want it and that he wants to use it on anyway. The Balrog is merely waiting to morgoth to return as a said so him making a ring hero seems just weird for he would never leave moria and fight for sauron.

As for the statement that the blarog is the ruler of moria, Where did you get that from. Ever since the goblins went into moria they had an orc as leader. See azog he was the leader of moria.

"Azog, known also as the Defiler and the Pale Orc, was an orc who lived in the Third Age. He commanded the tribes of Moria from TA 2790 until his death in TA 2799. "

"Azog then called out that he had killed Thrór , and that he now ruled Moria as king. His name in runes was carved onto the brow of Thrór, forever branding it into the hearts of the Dwarves."

During that time the blarog was already walking in moria so he wasnt the ruler but it was azog. And probley during the war of the ring the goblins would have found a new commander and king of moria which isn't the balrog.

We dont know who the leader is of moria during the war of the ring. If edain adds a leader in for moria goblins it will probley just be an orc and who knows what.

An the other hand smaug. He would be perfect for a ring hero, Smaug desires gold. What is the one ring made of gold. He loves gold. He would take the ring even if he doesnt sense the power of the one ring he would still take it because it is made of gold. And once he has it the ring will do his job and make smaug stronger with the power of the ring even though smaug never intended that. So smaug being ring hero isn't that weird

1. Balrog not being interested in the ring is speculation, given that he is a Maia he would have more interest in the ring than Smaug.
2. Orc kings existed throughout the First Age but still payed homage to Gothmog (lord of the Balrogs, Sauron, and Morgoth) so what does that prove? Boldog, Balcmeg, Orcobal, Othrod, and Lug were all Orc Kings/Lords.
3. You can be king/ruler of orcs in Tolkien's work and still be ruled by a creature of higher authority and power obviously.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 16. Aug 2017, 23:09

On your first point, I think the Balrog being interested in the Ring because of being a Maia would be purely a matter of speculation too. At least with Smaug, we know he is greedy. He didn't show interest in the One Ring in The Hobbit if I remember correctly, but then again, the Balrog didn't either. So I think they make roughly the same sense as Ring-Heroes, but with the known trait of Smaug being greedy, I think he makes more sense as a Ring-Hero.

We don't have a way of knowing exactly if the Balrog would be interested by the Ring or not, and with Smaug, it is the same issue, but I think that Smaug makes a little more sense.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: SilverElf am 16. Aug 2017, 23:13
"I do have a counter for Durin's Bane and Smaug, it is called Silverthorn. "

well not every faction gets it, Also do you know anything about balance in dagor, It is shit. Edain team want to keep it balance and just having a blarog as hero without nerfing him would be to OP there is no way an evil or man and dwarves can deal with that.

Also tom bomadil would just forget about the ring, Smaug wouldnt forget about the ring at all because the ring is made of GOLD and what does Smaug care about GOLD so he would have intressted in it. because as a i said many times Smaug loves gold.

The blarog would never desire the ring at all he doesnt care about power or gold. Smaug might not care about the power but he clearly cares about gold.

It is quite possible that Gandalf wanted Smaug to be destroyed before the War of the Ring began, because, had Smaug allied with Sauron, it would have meant almost certain ruin for the Free Peoples; the forces of Rohan and Gondor would not have been able to bring him down without suffering enormous losses. This idea is reinforced in the extended version of An Unexpected Journey when Gandalf meets with the White Council at Rivendell, as he expresses concern at the possibility of Smaug allying with the new darkness that Radagast had encountered (Although Saruman dismisses this as nothing more than some human playing with black magic rather than recognizing it as Sauron).

Smaug allying with sauron is more likely to happen then the balrog siding with sauron
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 16. Aug 2017, 23:40
As far as Fredius's words about the Balrog's playstyle, nerfing, etc. Dagor Dagorath implements the Balrogs perfectly without much error, and I do have a counter for Durin's Bane and Smaug, it is called Silverthorn.

Firstly, Dagor Dagorath added heroes like the Valar to their, uh, mod. Of course they can add the Balrogs with no problem then, you can't compare it to Edain which solely focusses on the Third Age, where such Gods aren't present anymore. Also, what's your point exactly when you mention the Silverthorn? How do you know that Silverthorn works on the Balrog, when the Misty Mountains aren't even released yet? And not all factions have Silverthorn, or a similair upgrade, like Silver Elf said. My point was that not all factions have a "Gandalf" or "Silverthorn" to counter a Balrog, which gives the Misty Mountains an unfair advantage through their Ring Hero already.

And Smaug who is the greatest and most terrible of calamities is nerfed and this does him justice. Okay Fred. Sauron is also from the First Age, Treebeard is from the First Age, Galadriel is from the First Age, Celeborn is from the FA, Cirdan...do I really need to go on? None of these are asked to be nerfed, nay, Galadriel and Sauron are asked to be upgraded, I even supported a post on that. So the bases for the argument of Smaug vs Balrog is gameplay, pure and simple because there is NOTHING in the Lore that states or hints that Smaug would be interested in such an artifact and there is more in the lore regarding the nature, history, and powers of the Balrog which would be suitable for him to be the faction leader.

How do you know Smaug is nerfed? Agian, the Misty Mountains aren't released yet, so you can't make any conclussions on his powers. Anyway, Walkure described the ancient menace that the Balrog represents perfectly, and I am not going to repeat his words. The point of my post was that the Balrog is a much better as summon because of earlier described reasons by me and most other people here.

In conclusion, you are all getting what you want even if it isn't canonical for Smaug to utilize the Ring or care about it. You guys get that plus the ability to play a dragon. Something you got to do in vanilla BFME2, ROTWK, oh and many other mods.

If that bothers you so much you could always learn to mod yourself, and make the Balrog playable in your own version. It's not hard really ;).

So despite the canon depravity and clear flaws that any true Tolkienist could point out the subject of Smaug staying and acting as a hero/Ring hero remains. So do it canoncially and I'll support it, if not canonical then I am against it as I have always been.

Most, if not all of your arguments to make the Balrog a Ring Hero, are purely based on speculation, and are not canon. So far you haven't shown any Tolkien confirmed evidence that the Balrog is interested in the Ring. You don't seem to be so firm on the canon as you try to portray yourself to be...
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Aug 2017, 00:25
No, it's not Hobbits and unicorns. In the much aleatory context of what-if scenarios, we are in front of two possible choices, on which the lore does not express in the plainest terms. We are instead bound to make speculations and discuss. I think it makes more sense to have things as they were planned, in respect of those three aspects I mentioned. And even the lore might justify something, albeit dismissing other theses. But I don't have the presumption to state that my opinion is perfectly lore-accurate, and that the opposing suggestion is a lore abomination.

Aye, for the fact of not facing previous losses of might, the Balrog is the most powerful Maia in the Third Age. By the sheer measure of his own prowess, at least. Sauron has lost considerable amount of his magic, but he's indeed the mightiest threat in Middle-earth, due to him ruling massive armies, the foulest kind of creatures and a realm in general. I think that Gandalf was referring to this not so meaningless aspect. I don't believe he was picturing in his mind a direct confrontation with him, whose result would have been determined by sheer force. Confrontation that seriously risked to take place, when Gandalf visited Dol Guldur for the first time. Sauron, whom some deem pretty much invincible even with halved capabilities, was forced into flight by the sole perceiving of the wizard's arrival. And he was Gandalf the Grey. Leaving differences aside, all Maiar belong to the same order of Ainur and boast an akin level of might. And I'm not saying that one could not tower over another one, but the idea of the One Ring (an artefact of the Second Age) enhancing the majesty of a Maia in perfect state sounds quite absurd. Not that a Maia would not wish to seize the One Ring for himself, but there's not even the need for this to be. Like Eönwë wielding the One; which boost would you entail in this situation?

Ungoliant was a Maia. And the radiance of the Two Trees was renowned to be the grandest of the Valar's deeds, even greater than the ancestral Two Lamps. I don't think we can draw a comparison between the One and the Two Trees, as they encompass totally different themes and features. Together with the reference that it was made in regards of the Arkenstone: is the King's Jewel the material embodiment of a Maia's essence? Does it emanate evil influence? Does it grant magical power? By the way, Sauron's longing for his Ring and the menace which the situation poses are motives intertwined deeply with the Third Age, being LOTR immersed into the War of Wrath. An age in which the Balrog is completely something going beyond schemes. An age to which he does not belong much, unlike Smaug. Therefore, it's not three ages versus a sole one, in my opinion. And, with the utmost respect for Durin's Bane, hiding for millennia in forsaken caverns and lurking silently (more or less) in the creeping shadows of Moria doesn't seem to be very dynamic; I think that guarding the mines is more proper for his characterisation, in the context of the late Third Age (going back to the Elder Days is not of much avail, as that era ended for the good after the War of Wrath and the sinking of Númenor). Whereas Smaug appears more active, given his plan to take control of an entire kingdom on his own, coming from unknown territories of the North. As I said, he's much more in tune with the geopolitics of Middle-earth at that time, as Gandalf exactly feared.

I also fancy a lot the underlying motive of greed which Julio, Elf and Ody talked about. It surely tells something more; useful hints. And gold itself is, as a theme, profoundly connected with greed, in most of the literature that deals with desire and the yearning of things. An ever-green theme in mankind's knowledge. And, as a not appalling coincidence, the One Ring is made of gold. Purely and simply made of gold, without other ornaments. Without gems and jewels, contrary to the other Rings, to symbolise greed, desire and obsession. I guess its very shape, particular and apparently simple, was not without a certain meaning.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 17. Aug 2017, 00:38
 :D Wow, to all of you I said that I support Isildur's idea and Smaug was already picked to be a ring hero. I said all of this if you actually read my posts  [ugly]

Anyways, then if nothing is out then how do we know that Edain could or couldn't balance the Balrog out? I was going based off of vanilla BFME2 Balrog, which is also everyone else's bases or if not where does it come from? The Lore? Give me a break.

Look Elf in Silver I already said before that Smaug cares about quantity not quality he didn't even know about the ring or arkenstone in his view/possession in the Hobbit.

"Most, if not all of your arguments to make the Balrog a Ring Hero, are purely based on speculation, and are not canon. So far you haven't shown any Tolkien confirmed evidence that the Balrog is interested in the Ring. You don't seem to be so firm on the canon as you try to portray yourself to be..."

Apparently neither yourself Fredius, for my bases came from the Balrog's background, history, and what was actually written about not some made up reason about greed nor because of Sauron allying with Smaug. How does that even make him qualify as a ring hero, in fact it is the opposite, it is Sauron's ring, why the heck would Sauron want a dragon to have his ring and use it? And that is more canonical to you?  :D

"We don't have a way of knowing exactly if the Balrog would be interested by the Ring or not, and with Smaug, it is the same issue, but I think that Smaug makes a little more sense." --Julio229

Well not really Julio, you're telling me someone being greedy is a higher qualifier than a Maia who knows the intricate makings of the world, who has been a general for evil armies, who is of the same race as Sauron and has magic? In that case any evil Dwarf hero is a better ring hero than the Balrog apparently.  ;)



Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Aug 2017, 00:47
Blue, I got that you accepted the official line, but why are you constantly referring to it as a lore/gameplay disaster that you really loathe from the depth of your heart? :D

At least, this is what I grasped from your comments, after you mentioned lore abominations, not canonical choices and flaws in principle. If you don't like something, there is no problem in making us aware of this. Diverging opinions usually benefit the main debate, just like Narya. I'm equally interested in your own ideas too, albeit different from mine :)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 17. Aug 2017, 00:54

Aye, for the fact of not facing previous losses of might, the Balrog is the most powerful Maia in the Third Age. By the sheer measure of his own prowess, at least. Sauron has lost considerable amount of his magic, but he's indeed the mightiest threat in Middle-earth, due to him ruling massive armies, the foulest kind of creatures and a realm in general. I think that Gandalf was referring to this not so meaningless aspect. I don't believe he was picturing in his mind a direct confrontation with him, whose result would have been determined by sheer force. Confrontation that seriously risked to take place, when Gandalf visited Dol Guldur for the first time. Sauron, whom some deem pretty much invincible even with halved capabilities, was forced into flight by the sole perceiving of the wizard's arrival. And he was Gandalf the Grey. Leaving differences aside, all Maiar belong to the same order of Ainur and boast an akin level of might. And I'm not saying that one could not tower over another one, but the idea of the One Ring (an artefact of the Second Age) enhancing the majesty of a Maia in perfect state sounds quite absurd. Not that a Maia would not wish to seize the One Ring for himself, but there's not even the need for this to be. Like Eönwë wielding the One; which boost would you entail in this situation?

Ungoliant was a Maia. And the radiance of the Two Trees was renowned to be the grandest of the Valar's deeds, even greater than the ancestral Two Lamps. I don't think we can draw a comparison between the One and the Two Trees, as they encompass totally different themes and features. Together with the reference that it was made in regards of the Arkenstone: is the King's Jewel the material embodiment of a Maia's essence? Does it emanate evil influence? Does it grant magical power? By the way, Sauron's longing for his Ring and the menace which the situation poses are motives intertwined deeply with the Third Age, being LOTR immersed into the War of Wrath. An age in which the Balrog is completely something going beyond schemes. An age to which he does not belong much, unlike Smaug. Therefore, it's not three ages versus a sole one, in my opinion. And, with the utmost respect for Durin's Bane, hiding for millennia in forsaken caverns and lurking silently (more or less) in the creeping shadows of Moria doesn't seem to be very dynamic; I think that guarding the mines is more proper for his characterisation, in the context of the late Third Age (going back to the Elder Days is not of much avail, as that era ended for the good after the War of Wrath and the sinking of Númenor). Whereas Smaug appears more active, given his plan to take control of an entire kingdom on his own, coming from unknown territories of the North. As I said, he's much more in tune with the geopolitics of Middle-earth at that time, as Gandalf exactly feared.

I also fancy a lot the underlying motive of greed which Julio, Elf and Ody talked about. It surely tells something more; useful hints. And gold itself is, as a theme, profoundly connected with greed, in most of the literature that deals with desire and the yearning of things. An ever-green theme in mankind's knowledge. And, as a not appalling coincidence, the One Ring is made of gold. Purely and simply made of gold, without other ornaments. Without gems and jewels, contrary to the other Rings, to symbolise greed, desire and obsession. I guess its very shape, particular and apparently simple, was not without a certain meaning.

1. Walkure I was referring to the match between Gandalf the White and Sauron at Amon Hen, what you site is of the battle with the White Council and many were present there as told in the Hobbit. Also, when Sauron forged the Ring he was at full power (from his First Age incarnation). Also Eonwe wielded the Silmaril's (two of them) without any problem. To suggest that he would take the ring is folly and something he would not do, oh and he is more powerful than the Balrog by far. Why would a boost even apply to him given that he wouldn't even take it for himself?

Point 2: 1. I was drawing comparison between Silmarils and the One, not the Two Trees. Silmarils that were made by Feanor and his gems boosted Ungoliant. Just saying he wasn't near eithers level.
2. Durin's Bane was trapped, yes he hid after WoW but he was trapped later on, that is why he acted up after his release.

Point 3: I'll just quote something for all you awesome loreists out there since THIS IS CANONICAL:

"For five hundred years, Moria was left to the Balrog. Sauron began to put his plans for war into effect around the year 2480 of the Third Age. As part of these, he sent Orcs and Trolls to the Misty Mountains to bar all of the passes. Some of these creatures came to Moria. It is unclear whether Sauron could have controlled the Balrog (they were both Maiar) but it is probable that they would have been allied against the "common good". The Balrog did allow the Orcs and trolls to remain in Moria while it dwelt there. We do not know whether Sauron was aware of the Balrog's presence prior to this time."

Just a little something from Tolkien Gateway, access to Sauron's troops seem to be a bigger indicator than just mere greed, if going by speculations.  :o

Walkure, I am not upset by ET choice, I have stated and written over and over again that I am OKAY WITH ET CHOICE OF SMAUG but it should be canonically implemented via Isildur's ideas. HOW HARD WAS THAT TO FOLLOW?

The Balrog would be a more canonical choice, but that is BESIDES THE POINT SMAUG IS ALREADY PICKED. So if all of you are trying to convince me otherwise, there have been no good examples, just opinions--the Balrog IS A BETTER CHOICE THAN SMAUG, but SMAUG IS ALREADY PICKED. So I want a canonical solution.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Aug 2017, 01:28
The Jewels are the radiance of the Two Trees themselves. When the Trees were poisoned by Ungoliant, they were the only thing that could have brought them back to life, as Yavanna wished and as she told the council of the Valar, with the breaking of their shape and the revitalisation of the dead ruins of Laurelin and Telperion. So, mentioning the Silmarils cannot go far from considering their source in the equation as well. By the way, it was not the Silmarils that made Ungoliant titanic and permitted her to come close to (if not to surpass) the level of a Vala, as she was able to bind Tulkas with her webs of darkness and of anti-light or dark light, which is not just the absence of light (darkness), but its very living nemesis. She got huge due to the life and energy she sucked out from the Two Trees. She never ate the Jewels, as the Valar feared in terror, lest they be made into nothingness. And Melkor prevented this from happening, betraying her. As for Eönwë, you got my point then: it's not reasonable that a Maia in perfect state would ever long for the One Ring (which is honestly a lesser artefact for the Ainur).

And, regarding Tolkien Gateway, I am familiar with that explanation too. But that sounds more as a speculation, as ours are. It states that Sauron could be absolutely unaware of the Balrog even existing in Moria in previous times. While the presence of Orcs and Trolls might be explained with my previous hypothesis: the Balrog tolerates their presence, as long as they don't result in a cause of disturbance. It's quite different from saying that he then disposed of a structured and loyal army. As you can see, it's mostly a matter of speculations still. It's not that we want to indulge in speculating; it's more that we can't get away from them :D

Anyway, I don't want anyone to feel frustrated by potentially tedious arguments that belong to the Prancing Pony section. They're certainly not tedious for me, but for other people might. I reckon the debate might cause us to go round and amok in search of lore-related reasons. If Blue doesn't mind Smaug being the Ring hero of the faction, then it's totally fine. May the development of Isildur's ideas go forward :)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 17. Aug 2017, 01:43
The Jewels are the radiance of the Two Trees themselves. When the Trees were poisoned by Ungoliant, they were the only thing that could have brought them back to life, as Yavanna wished and as she told the council of the Valar, with the breaking of their shape and the revitalisation of the dead ruins of Laurelin and Telperion. So, mentioning the Silmarils cannot go far from considering their source in the equation as well. By the way, it was not the Silmarils that made Ungoliant titanic and permitted her to come close to (if not to surpass) the level of a Vala, as she was able to bind Tulkas with her webs of darkness and of anti-light or dark light, which is not just the absence of light (darkness), but its very living nemesis. She got huge due to the life and energy she sucked out from the Two Trees. She never ate the Jewels, as the Valar feared in terror, lest they be made into nothingness. And Melkor prevented this from happening, betraying her. As for Eönwë, you got my point then: it's not reasonable that a Maia in perfect state would ever long for the One Ring (which is honestly a lesser artefact for the Ainur).

And, regarding Tolkien Gateway, I am familiar with that explanation too. But that sounds more as a speculation, as ours are. It states that Sauron could be absolutely unaware of the Balrog even existing in Moria in previous times. While the presence of Orcs and Trolls might be explained with my previous hypothesis: the Balrog tolerates their presence, as long as they don't result in a cause of disturbance. It's quite different from saying that he then disposed of a structured and loyal army. As you can see, it's mostly a matter of speculations still. It's not that we want to indulge in speculating; it's more that we can't get away from them :D

Anyway, I don't want anyone to feel frustrated by potentially tedious arguments that belong to the Prancing Pony section. They're certainly not tedious for me, but for other people might. I reckon the debate might cause us to go round and amok in search of lore-related reasons. If Blue doesn't mind Smaug being the Ring hero of the faction, then it's totally fine. May the development of Isildur's ideas go forward :)

1. Yes about the jewels absorbing light of the two trees, but the other jewels Morgoth fed on the way increased her in size as well and that was Feanor's own making without any Valar influence albeit lesser artifacts to Ungoliant but still boosted her power.

2. Actually it enhances, as I said, why would Sauron want someone to actually control his own ring? Especially Smaug? A Saruman like system (which the Balrog is) makes more sense, especially if factions are pitted against one another.

3. Yes I don't mind and I was saying I support Isildur's position a long time ago. However with the canoncial examples we do have from the books, the Balrog does make more sense which is beside the point because ET has already selected Smaug. So that was my point.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Isildurs Fluch am 17. Aug 2017, 12:00
Wow so much talking at cross-purposes...  8-|

I first want to make one thing clear: All ring-bearers besides Sauron, Bilbo and Frodo are pure speculations and what-if scenarios. But there are better suggestions and worse ones...

In fact there is no real evidence that a Maia couldn´t make use of the One Ring, in my oppinion the lore counts in the opposite direction, as Gandalf says he didn´t take the ring not because he couldn´t use it, but because he would give it to much power, because in reverse the ring would give him the opportunity to unlock greater power.
The only non-Ainur character which we kind of saw using the ring for magical powers was Galadriel, but we don´t really know how the ring would have affected her, what we saw were here own intrinsic power and the things she learned from Melian.
And it´s also said that Elves are the most like the Ainur from all the Children of Illuvatar and Aule.

In my oppinion the Balrog is as far away from being a "pure Maia" whatever that means as Gandalf or Saruman. Those two use their power and abbilities just in different ways than him, who just focusses on brute force. As I view it all the followers of Melkor are in a way degenerated and not fullfilling their true potential, because they deviate from the role, that was given to them by Eru.

Next you have to ask yourself what is the ring: It´s an object in that Sauron put much of his will and power, therefore it always tries to manipulate the ring-bearer according to Saurons plan. That should be our basis for discussion...
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 19. Aug 2017, 18:15
Isildur, I think you hit on some very good points as I have. I really think the Saruman like system we have for Isengard is what the MM should mirror through the Balrog, but Edain Team wants Smaug for whatever reason, so that is why your idea is the most sound and lore worthy.

I mean I don't mind playing a flying dragon ring hero that can incinerate all troops in a moments notice--i mean, it's cool, but the Balrog as you stated is a more lore worthy choice. I never understood what fighting for Sauron had to do with Smaug wielding the ring anyways, that was kinda of weird justification if you ask me. I mean "Sauron does not share power." So I found that as an odd reason to justify Smaug as a ring hero.

Anyhow, I would continue with your idea Isildur, it is a good one, I like the fact that you are dedicated to the lore and tolkien's work as I am. I always appreciate a real Tolkienist.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Isildurs Fluch am 20. Aug 2017, 14:13
Anyhow, I would continue with your idea Isildur, it is a good one, I like the fact that you are dedicated to the lore and tolkien's work as I am. I always appreciate a real Tolkienist.
So do I  ;)
Thank you, I will sit down this week and write a concept about outposts and ring-heroes for the Misty Mountains and translate my Harad-concept, but first I have to finish my exams...  8-|

Concerning the design of the Gundabad-buildings I´m not even sure if the teams really wants to stick to the old orc-design, which I never liked. Maybe they already decided to go for something else and all discussion about is worthless. A statement from an insider would help a lot. I´m not talking about sharing secrets, but simply telling us if the plan is still to use the old design.
Yours sincerely
Isildurs Bane
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 31. Aug 2017, 23:13
Ehi guys ;) so many new ideas here  xD
Starting from the Barlog: i would like to have him as a summon because imo is the best way to exploit all his potential. I cannot see any other good way to introduce him for now. At least with Smaug we have some arguments to link him with the ring (he's greedy).

About giants, i repost my idea for a new type of mountain troll unit design, to replace the vanilla one:
This unit would be a bigger version of the current cave-troll, something that is closer to the maximum evil-perversion of Ent race.
i would make them very tanky and resistant against arrow, and with an active ability like the curent "stomp" which creates a small earthquake that deals good damage against structure and medium damage against troops :)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 1. Sep 2017, 01:27
Actually I have been looking at the possible good faction list, and evil is really coming up short. I am putting together an evil faction that might help with balance and we can all still get what we want. I'll post it in a couple of weeks. It is connected to the MM and functions like the Dwarf system with new and familiar units/heroes.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 5. Sep 2017, 10:39
Any ideas about other ultimate 10pp spell for MM? I had a thought to be able to summon bats that cause darkness that debuffs all enemies on the entire map temporarily. This was also clearly described in the book just as the battle of the five armies starts. Thoughts?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: kmogon am 5. Sep 2017, 16:21
There was a discution about it on this site. We concluded that best option would be summoning command center from which azog was giving orders in hobbit which could bring some all map bonuses an would suit new spellbook build. Additionally this would bring two ultimate spells from two different trylogies. Unfortunately ET said that second ultimate will be drago strike.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 5. Sep 2017, 16:58
The current ultimate spells are the Balrog and Dragon Strike. If that summoned command center would be implemented, then it should replace the Dragon Strike power, not the Balrog.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 5. Sep 2017, 19:07
Any ideas about other ultimate 10pp spell for MM? I had a thought to be able to summon bats that cause darkness that debuffs all enemies on the entire map temporarily. This was also clearly described in the book just as the battle of the five armies starts. Thoughts?

Yes, that was the proposal and Ealendril had liked it. I myself am really fond of the suggestion, for it comprises a pivotal happening in the very Hobbit, which Tolkien too narrates in his book. The whole idea connects very well with the theme of the faction, of which controlling the most diverse range of fell creatures is exactly a part. Bats, in this case; a specie which loathes sunlight as much as Goblins do.

By the way, this premise constituted the idea of the old weather-spell logic. I'm not sure whether the idea of a spell of this typology would be very much fine-tuned with the spirit that the new overhaul is to embrace, although Rohan, Isengard and Mordor do boast this specific feature in their new spellbooks. Even if not as an ultimate spell, clouds of blood-thirsty and menacing bats would be totally suitable for the faction, I daresay.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions About Giants
Beitrag von: Thranduils am 16. Sep 2017, 12:04
the giants of movie you dont like it or you cant texture it because i like it the part of giant in hobbit if you disagree guys make vote  i agree to be part on edain
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 27. Sep 2017, 19:00
Hello Guys  xD
In this period i have definely more time to concentrate myself on projects, so that i have completed one of the unfinished one, regarding Smaug The Terrible.
Several months ago i have published a very raw version, and i always want to complete it. Consider, before reading, that i've leave aside the evergreen issue of how Smaug should look like in Edain, because it is a very subjective idea looking at the discussions here in the forum. Personally i would like to see him more or less like this:


But let us not consider the design for now, so here's my work:


I need to know what do you think  xD. I would like to see my concept inserted in a more specific thread when the time of MM will come, in order to discuss it more properly without interfere with other topics. I therefore trust the many-skilled Walküre for this task   xD
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Bowshot 999 am 27. Sep 2017, 19:58
I Realy like your Conzept.
the awesome pictures and the Powers are amazing.

I hope i see it in the Game as like you made it
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 27. Sep 2017, 20:02
I can only say one word: I agree! (wait, those are two words). I love this whole concept of him, and I especially like the "Dragon Sickness" power a lot, showing that he did not agree to be an ally for nothing.

As for some critique; I feel like there will be a slight problem with the resources that are spawned when the Dragon Lair gets destroyed: if it gives a huge amount of resources, the player would just build the lair and then manually destroy it, take the money, and rebuild it again. So if this system were be able to be implemented, then I would just have it spawn the same amount of resources as a creep Dragon Lair.

Also I honestly am not a fan of the spellbook power that unlocks Smaug. It feels kinda weird to have to spend a whole spellbook power on him, and THEN still have to buy him for 3000 resources. I would personally just have him be a permanent hero through the Ring, that would make his Ring mechanic even more unique.

All in all, great proposal xD!
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 27. Sep 2017, 23:44
Thank you guys, i'm glad you like the general ideas of the concept  xD

Zitat
As for some critique; I feel like there will be a slight problem with the resources that are spawned when the Dragon Lair gets destroyed: if it gives a huge amount of resources, the player would just build the lair and then manually destroy it, take the money, and rebuild it again. So if this system were be able to be implemented, then I would just have it spawn the same amount of resources as a creep Dragon Lair.

That could be a problem. The best would be that the opponent who destroy the building directly gains the resurces, without the leaving of some treasure chest or similar object.
Don't know if it is possible to create a proper code for such system [ugly]. Anyhow i found the general idea of a real treasure very fitting, because ti resable the spirt of BOTFA as i wrote.

Zitat
Also I honestly am not a fan of the spellbook power that unlocks Smaug. It feels kinda weird to have to spend a whole spellbook power on him, and THEN still have to buy him for 3000 resources. I would personally just have him be a permanent hero through the Ring, that would make his Ring mechanic even more unique

As i read in the old articles, the team want to make Smaug recruitable without the necessity of the One Ring. Smaug with the ring would be only a more improved version of it, both speaking about powers and drawbacks (greedy for example).
I think is reasonable to make him more ring-independent, because as i know in multiplayer matches usually the ring-heroes are not used. Would be a pity if the player cannot exploit the full-power of Smaug in multiplayer matches. That's why i insert the spellbook possibility. if it worth an entire spell i cannot say. I also thought about a possible central spell of MM with a 5-6 of cost, that generally improves caves (dragon,trolls,etc) with some upgrades. In this perspective, the unlocking of Smaug could be included in such spell (without any other influence on the dragons), avoiding the waste of a total spell only for him. A central spell that is the gathering of the complete power of the horrid beasts, which are the very soul of the faction :)
The fact that the player need to also unlock some spell to have access to smaug, goes towards balance, since he will be over the average with respect to other heroes.
I'm open to other suggestion that are an alternative to my via-spellbook option :). For now i deem it a balanced and fitting idea.
Feel free to propose :)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Sep 2017, 00:26
Many thanks to you, gentle Aulë. Seldom do I not behold and sense your ever-burning passion whenever I go through your thoughtful concepts. And, speaking about those bonds you mentioned on ModDB and the great care one pours into it, your proposals simply exemplify your noble endeavour for what you deem valuable in the game. Accept these words of praise of mine and to my response hearken: I am more than happy to give you consent (as if you need it) for the opening of a new thread, which is to be guided by nothing else but your personal judgement. I thus entrust to you the task; were you to doubt, don't hesitate to ask for counsel. I shall leave my comment at a later time :)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 28. Sep 2017, 12:26
Many thanks to you, gentle Aulë. Seldom do I not behold and sense your ever-burning passion whenever I go through your thoughtful concepts. And, speaking about those bonds you mentioned on ModDB and the great care one pours into it, your proposals simply exemplify your noble endeavour for what you deem valuable in the game. Accept these words of praise of mine and to my response hearken: I am more than happy to give you consent (as if you need it) for the opening of a new thread, which is to be guided by nothing else but your personal judgement. I thus entrust to you the task; were you to doubt, don't hesitate to ask for counsel. I shall leave my comment at a later time :)

Thank you very much for you kind words wise and gentle moderator.   I would certainly be honored of such task when the time will come. I think Smaug deserve his own thread in the future section "Goblin suggestions". He'll be the only great dragon in game after all.
Speaking about bonds: beside writing what I like and what I would like to see in this beautiful mod, I hope my works are one the Sparks who still ignite the fire of passion and knowledge in this forum. The forum need to be alive especially in harder times :)

About my concept I will wait your answer impatiently :)
Speaking about the spellbook and balance, with some care, I would dare to make this comparison: as for the transformation Sauron-Gorthaur available at the last row, in the same way also a spell (whatever row provided that it balanced) of the final fulfilling of Smaug's power would be fitting. Both Sauron and Smaug are powerful hero in their own way, for this reason the player have to wait more to complete them. The spellbook alternative is in fact, in both the cases, an alternative to the ring as a tool to reach the mentioned path towards power. And being the ring less used in multiplayer, I would say the spellbook it is a valid alternative :)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Fredius am 28. Sep 2017, 18:43
As i read in the old articles, the team want to make Smaug recruitable without the necessity of the One Ring. Smaug with the ring would be only a more improved version of it, both speaking about powers and drawbacks (greedy for example).
I think is reasonable to make him more ring-independent, because as i know in multiplayer matches usually the ring-heroes are not used. Would be a pity if the player cannot exploit the full-power of Smaug in multiplayer matches.

That is exactly the unique feature of the Ring Hero mechanic; to get heroes that you otherwise can't recruit through normal means ;). Not having a fully recruitable Smaug without the Ring Hero mechanic is indeed a pity, but the same can be said about Sauron's Dark Lord form, or the Fellowship of the Ring battalion unit.

The Misty Mountains articles are very dated by the way, they were made way before a lot of huge changes of this mod. So by now anything could happen.

I also thought about a possible central spell of MM with a 5-6 of cost, that generally improves caves (dragon,trolls,etc) with some upgrades. In this perspective, the unlocking of Smaug could be included in such spell (without any other influence on the dragons), avoiding the waste of a total spell only for him. A central spell that is the gathering of the complete power of the horrid beasts, which are the very soul of the faction :)
The fact that the player need to also unlock some spell to have access to smaug, goes towards balance, since he will be over the average with respect to other heroes. 

I find this a good solution. If the team wants to make him a permanent recruitable hero without the Ring Hero mechanic, then this is the idea that I agree on. You have my vote anyway xD.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 29. Sep 2017, 11:09
Zitat
I find this a good solution. If the team wants to make him a permanent recruitable hero without the Ring Hero mechanic, then this is the idea that I agree on. You have my vote anyway xD.

I think the idea worth to be inserted as an alternative. In fact it was my initial idea before the creation of the stand-alone power  ;) i shall put it in my concept.
As for the ring, just few quick ideas:

- the whispers of the ring makes Smaug even more greedy: the "Dragon Sickness" becomes "Immeasurable Greediness" and now the debuff on buildings is -50%.
His desire make him even more cruel and "blind" about anything around him:  the Smaug's melee attack and elemetal damage (fire) are increased, but now also strikes allies if they're on his path.

- "Impenetrable Armor" now becomes "The golden armor": the ring reward smaug with a golden armor which covers all his body (from level 5 on, when you unlock the power, this will be visible graphically on his texture). The armour is increased to +100% against  arrows.


This last idea i've read somewhere on moddb and like it very much :) very fitting imo.

Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 29. Sep 2017, 16:47
Well, I fall short of words in the expression of my first impression regarding the concept: it is simply bloody brilliant and marvellous!

I literally fancy almost everything that your suggestion entails, Aulë of many skills. I must first congratulate you for the daunting efforts you poured in such structured proposal; it's clearly evident and visible from any passage of the construction. Also, it was certainly not a very obvious thing that something valuable would be the outcome of our thorough discussions. And it was really a very insightful and in-depth debate, yet hard and cause of fatigues. However, you have triumphed over difficulties, gentle Aulë, and the result of your striving is honourably sound. No doubts or second thoughts about that.

Let us now, in the words of Saruman, examine what we have knowledge of: one of the stringent topics of the debate was the implementation of Smaug in a way that was worthy of the renowned smart mechanics of the Edain Mod. Not only should the very hero be included in the game via unique systems, but he needs be given more prominence in equal terms, were we to widen our sight and gaze until we consider the whole faction. This was not a very easy of a task, surely; Smaug does not partake in the common logic of the three realms (pardon the generalisation with the word realms), being him a solitary creature which prefers to act on his own and which is not much in tune with the idea of obedience either. A lone and deadly force of nature which is definitely used to lonesomeness. Therefore, in accordance with the insights that were thitherto presented to all, I really like how the concept evolved, revolving around the themes of greed, earned allegiance through tributes of gold and the special character of Smaug himself. Given the iconic importance and pervasiveness of any Edain feature, this proposal lives up to the aforementioned standards, because it devises something that complies with the lore, with the tone of the cinematographic adaptation and with that consistency at the root of faction mechanics (so that the feature is made relevant and significant for players, which is the most important goal we could set ourselves on). In conclusion, the conceptual characterisation would fare greatly, methinks. If it's possible to make it work, I feel we have eventually found a very proper solution for our needs. Although I am generally quite sceptical about tying a hero to the spellbook in such a manner, if not when it comes to exceptional cases (Sauron), I deem the concept necessary; simply said. Smaug boasts too much importance in the faction as a character and general iconic figure. Holistically, this is the system which hitherto fulfils our theories and speculations.

On a secondary note, but not lesser, I have very much appreciated that all sorts of available elements have been brought to the general attention, trying to provide in advance everything one may provide (advices, pictures, animations and so on), while leaving very little in the obscurity of doubts. Well done, indeed! I must particularly state my love for the art which has been proposed. The icons were thoughtfully conceived and that art just gives us those bits of the Hobbit trilogy that we are all fond of. Details do have their relevance! If the concept gets approved, I really hope that these images will be used for the purpose. And abilities I like too, of course. They encompass pretty much all sides of Smaug, without risking to be boring, redundant or mere replicas of the vanilla. Specifically, beside the references to the actual Hobbit, the hypnotising gaze retains the legacy of dragons in Arda and reminds us of the Elder Times of history, when the World used to have a different fashion, when foul foes would tread the ways of Middle-earth and when the immortal shires in which naught perishes were still part of the common world. The first dragons emerged from the pits of Angband during the wars between the Eldar and Morgoth, terrorising Elves, Men and Dwarves; their origin was unknown and they were equally said to have ghoulish capabilities. They appeared under a serpent-like guise and had magical powers as well, as many other demons and fell spirits in those years of agony. It is in fact reported that Glaurung, the most malicious and terrible of the Urulóki (the fire-breathing Worms of Morgoth, which are none else than the first wingless dragons) had the power to cast hypnotising spells with his wicked eyes. Moreover, Smaug is also portrayed as the deadly weapon he ought to be, for Winged Dragons appear in tales only at the last hour, amidst the utter mayhem of the War of Wrath; just to provide some facts, the arrival of such fleet of mighty beasts had even caused the Host of Valinor to retreat. The armies of Valinórë, led in battle by Eönwë, chief of the Maiar of Aman and herald of Manwë, Ancient King of Arda! As you may see, the antique lore of the past always manages to make some forays in the modernity of the Third Age. These are prime themes in the entirety of Tolkien's writings. Similarly to how we have suggested Narya being returned to Gandalf and Círdan being endowed with more lore-accurate features, connected with the ancient lore of the broad seas (Ulmo and Ossë).

Now, lest I be lost in the meanders of my narration, let us get to technicalities. Usually, new faction boards are opened after the release of said new factions. Thinking about the recent suggestions on Rivendell's spells, I truly believe that it would be wiser to start showcasing the concept at the present time, as we have enough time to leave feedback on it and perhaps polish some aspects which might need be polished. The Misty Mountains are probably still far on the horizon, yet time must be used wisely. Thus, I say this: the sooner, the better. So, dear Aulë, you have my authorisation to open an own thread in the General Suggestions. Everything is more or less finalised; nevertheless, prior to that, it would be wonderful if you managed to correct a couple of typos in the post and add Smaug's Ring form, comprising icons, abilities and the following suggestion (if you wish to include it). Speaking of which, what if Smaug were characterised by golden-toned textures, once he picks the One Ring up? An akin case to Saruman of Many Colours. We would thus have Smaug the Golden. Coming to the ending sentence: many thanks, Aulë, again. I do think that yours is a proposal worthy of being implemented :)

Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 30. Sep 2017, 15:42
Well, I fall short of words in the expression of my first impression regarding the concept: it is simply bloody brilliant and marvellous!

Sorry for the late answer Walküre, I have no words to express my gratitude for all the support: thank you very much :) :)! I sincerely didn't expect such a success of my concept. As always your judgement goes very deeply into the most important elements of the concept. For example i didn't know so much the lore about the breathing worms and they hypnotic gaze. Now i understand well why the team had such idea years ago.

Moreover, also in the movies, the power of Smaug is not only phisical, he's clearly very sharp, cunning, and smart. The best example is the one i wrote, when his powerful voice penetrates the mind of bilbo.

The spellbook implementation was a gamble for the reasons you stated: temporary summons apart, is not easy to tie an hero to the spellbook, unless he's foundamental for the faction (Sauron, Theoden). I think smaug is such an iconic figure that he deserves such a place.

You honored me with your words! Seriously! Considering also that i'm quite new here since i made the account only on April!
I shall open and guide the new thread in the general suggestions!! I'm sorry if there are some typing mistakes, sometimes i write and reread not very carefully! [ugly]
I need only some time to finalize the ring-function, which is important as well, including also the ideas i just conceived.

One last question: which one of the two via-spellbook implementation do you like the most? The stand-alone or an including in the central spell? The last one is probably most compact, and avoid the use of an entire power only for him (considering also new spellbooks having one less spell with respect to the old ones). But the first one could be much more iconic if it includes, together with Smaug, other minor fire breathing dragons. Of course both are sticked to the gold-desire content  :). 

Again: thank you very much for you kind words. I've not received so much positive feedback 'till now, not even for Durin VII (which is in the more difficult field of the dwarves discussion :D :D). I will complete the remaining parts with all the passion i have!!  xD
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Shadowlord am 30. Sep 2017, 20:20


At the beginning of the game Smaug will be available in the Dragon Lair, with the following summoning system, depending on the level of the structure:

I really like the ideas you have behind Smaug, however like many others I do have a problem with the tribute system.

Although its a cool idea to get a powerful late game unit like Smaug early, I feel that makes the Dragon's lair as a building very boring and linear in a stragetic sense.

You could have the Dragon's Lair serve as a way to give the Misty Mountains faction unit upgrades, with the Smaug summoning mechanic as an additional bonus. But from what I can see its too punishing to spend gold to summon Smaug when you can just build the lair and wait until he can be permanently recruited so you can save the gold you would normally spend just to summon him.

Note: Thematic wise it might be better if the dragon's lair offered economic upgrades instead of unit upgrades as well to fit the whole Dragon's greed theme as well.

Here's an idea I have for the tribute system. What you could do is have Smaug level up each time you summon it, the more gold you spend the faster he gains experience. So you are encouraged to invest in Smaug early. Of course you can add a cooldown timer so players can't abuse the mechanic. By the time you buy Smaug as a permanent hero he will be near max level.

One last thing, I am not a big fan of his Dragon Sickness ability because it buffs enemy buildings. Personally I think it would make more sense if it was just a copy of the Hillman's pillage ability where Smaug gains resources from attacking enemy buildings to symbolize his desire for taking the wealth of others.

What do you think?
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 1. Okt 2017, 00:33
One last question: which one of the two via-spellbook implementation do you like the most? The stand-alone or an including in the central spell? The last one is probably most compact, and avoid the use of an entire power only for him (considering also new spellbooks having one less spell with respect to the old ones). But the first one could be much more iconic if it includes, together with Smaug, other minor fire breathing dragons. Of course both are sticked to the gold-desire content  :).

As you may have surely read in the articles that were published until the present moment, the point of central spells is that they are supposed to embody pivotal themes of each faction. A subject underlying all aspects of the faction, together with a pervasive effect on the game itself and significant references to the lore. Namely, this is exactly the logic that spells as His Deadliest Servants, Wizard's Tower or Théoden Liberated and for the other cases equally. Furthermore, I can assure you that the same principle applies to Lothlórien, Angmar and Imladris; I hope that the related articles will be out soon.

That said, Smaug being featured as the central spell of his faction might be a sound choice. In the perspective of that pervasiveness I previously mentioned, Smaug is indeed the best candidate for such an important post. He's the prime hero of the Misty Mountains and represents well the nature of those whom he serves, if we can use this expression. Being the faction the most Hobbit-based in the game, I guess that the dragon boasting that kind of prominence just follows as a consequence. Henceforth, I favour a central spell based and fashioned on the greatest of the calamities, as tales narrate.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 2. Okt 2017, 22:37
Note: Thematic wise it might be better if the dragon's lair offered economic upgrades instead of unit upgrades as well to fit the whole Dragon's greed theme as well.

I don't find economy upgrades so fitting for dragon lair personally, dragons helping your economy is kinda weird because it is the antithesis of the definition of greediness  [ugly]
Filling the structure with a more abundant treasure could instead justify an increase of speed production of the fire-drakes, because they are "attracted" by the treasure.
The role of upgrades builiding will be probably fullfilled by the treasure cave :)

One last thing, I am not a big fan of his Dragon Sickness ability because it buffs enemy buildings. Personally I think it would make more sense if it was just a copy of the Hillman's pillage ability where Smaug gains resources from attacking enemy buildings to symbolize his desire for taking the wealth of others.
What do you think?

If it was a similar ability as pillage, you could earn resurces via Smaug. It is again the exact thing i want to avoid, in order to better rapresent him as selfish character: he doesn't share a single coin with anyone. I think the passive ability i conceived it is good. Smaug basically doesn't care about enemy/allies: he steals resources wherever he goes.

Here's an idea I have for the tribute system. What you could do is have Smaug level up each time you summon it, the more gold you spend the faster he gains experience. So you are encouraged to invest in Smaug early. Of course you can add a cooldown timer so players can't abuse the mechanic. By the time you buy Smaug as a permanent hero he will be near max level.


That's an interesting idea because, as you said, it could encourage the player to use Smaug early :) I'll think about it.

As you may have surely read in the articles that were published until the present moment, the point of central spells is that they are supposed to embody pivotal themes of each faction.

A pivotal theme common to any creature of MM could be the despoiling and pludering of treasures, in which Smaug of course is the best rapresentative. It is also the main reason why Goblins are the archenemy of the Dwarves  xD. I'll try to figure out something more general on this theme, starting from the current spell i crafted  ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Okt 2017, 03:16
Correct. I too was thinking about raiding and pillaging. Deprivation and infestation of spoils of war or ruins; Moria and its design convey properly this exact theme: an infesting force that lives (survives) off the spoils of its past enemies. At the end of the day, this is the very characterisation of most Goblins, and of those shown in FOTR. Smaug follows in the footsteps of this canon: he wrought total havoc in the halls of the Lonely Mountain, he conquered the realm, his enemies were utterly destroyed or forced into miserable fleeing and the dragon thus began to prey on the spoils of whom he had vanquished.

At the present state, I deem it the most reasonable choice. A central spell, without mentioning further the foremost prominence of Smaug in the Hobbit trilogy, as prime character and figure.
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 4. Okt 2017, 00:40
Aule this has been BY FAR the best MM idea yet man! Great Job! I personally agree with everything you proposed and it is very canonical. I agree somewhat with Fredius that 3000 and a power spell seems like a lot, but given his destructive power, I think it is needed. All in all, I AGREE with your concept for what it is worth.

I would like to see Smaug somehow become a permanent hero and I think your idea addresses this. So I think we should go with that as that makes perfect sense. Again, phenomenal job!
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 4. Okt 2017, 12:51
Aule this has been BY FAR the best MM idea yet man! Great Job! I personally agree with everything you proposed and it is very canonical. I agree somewhat with Fredius that 3000 and a power spell seems like a lot, but given his destructive power, I think it is needed. All in all, I AGREE with your concept for what it is worth.

I would like to see Smaug somehow become a permanent hero and I think your idea addresses this. So I think we should go with that as that makes perfect sense. Again, phenomenal job!

Thank you very much Blue, i really appreciate your words   ;). I'm working that possible central spell which include Smaug. I'll post the finished work as soon as possible so stay tuned!  ;)
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 4. Okt 2017, 18:25
Well you couldn't have done a better job! As far as the spell goes, instead of making it 7 power points, maybe make it 5 or 6. I think that would be better plus they still have to purchase Smaug and level him up. But I must say this proposal was nothing short of excellence. I know a great idea when I see one and I appreciate you coming up with a very canonical solution that helps all. This is what I was after and wanted. Bless you man!
Titel: Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Okt 2017, 02:24
I just remind everyone that the own thread regarding Smaug and his related system has now been opened. Hereafter, any comment or type of feedback ought to be forwarded there. And if you are for or against the finalised concept, you might need to assess your opinion again (in the proper place).

Thread. (https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34953.msg462382.html#msg462382)