Modding Union

[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Isengard Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: Sir_Stig am 8. Apr 2015, 15:47

Titel: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 8. Apr 2015, 15:47
I feel like wild men are far too strong, their range is better than the uruk crossbowmen and their attack speed is super high. I would say that torches should only do extra damage against buildings and nazgul, or that the attack speed should go way way down, it's not like you can carry 30 lit torches. I also think the range should be at least cut in half.

EDIT: Old poll closed, the results were pretty conclusive that damage type should change.
Zitat
No, they are fine as they are.
    1 (6.7%)
Yes, reduce their range
    2 (13.3%)
Yes, reduce their rate of fire
    0 (0%)
Yes, change torches to be high building damage, low unit damage
    11 (73.3%)
Yes, Other.
    1 (6.7%)
I've added a new poll to narrow down the exact type of change we want. I also realized you can add as many options as you want, so go crazy :)
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: ziqing am 8. Apr 2015, 19:32
I couldn't agree more.
Torch should only be effective towards wooden building (for Rohan and Lothlorien). Actually they could make torch an ability which will only take effect in a short time, during which wildman units using torch to attack(effective against wooden building, basically do no damage to units)
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 8. Apr 2015, 20:10
Yeah having it as a timed ability would be a good fix, and would make sense in reality. It would take time to gather material for torches.
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Sporf_McGorf am 10. Apr 2015, 21:38
They do a ton of damage to units, comparable to flaming arrows. I find that to be imbalanced, since Uruk crossbowmen have the steel bolts upgrade and become the standard for demolishing units. Wildmen could be tweaked to be more effective vs structures than units, and that would be reasonable.
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 16. Apr 2015, 17:59
Yeah I'd be happy with that change, as it stands now they are pretty much fire archers...
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 18. Apr 2015, 18:50
Agree, the damage they do is pretty high...in fact I see more Wildmen than Uruks around usually.
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Lord of Mordor am 19. Apr 2015, 12:34
We agree, wildman torch throwers will get nerfed in the next update. Do you think the melee wildmen are too strong as well?
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 21. Apr 2015, 22:36
Hmm with torches being a building damage type, I'm thinking that they would be fine. They are fairly squishy when they are in the front lines, the problem was that uruks would be their meat shield and you could use them as fast fire archers.
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: ziqing am 23. Apr 2015, 04:06
We agree, wildman torch throwers will get nerfed in the next update. Do you think the melee wildmen are too strong as well?

Could we make multiply choices? I think frequency, range, damage towards units should all be reduced, wildmen are just early game units for harassment after all
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 23. Apr 2015, 21:10
There is a limit to the number of poll options, so I tried to cover the main aspects of how I felt they could be adjusted down to their cost level. I think for now changing the damage type, and maybe the range as well would be a good fix, as we don't want to nerf them to the ground. I can try and make a new thread with a poll that goes into more detail ie damage only, damage+range, damage+attack rate, damage+range+attack rate, as I think the damage type being changed seems to be a given.

If all three get changed, I do think torch upgrade price might need to be adjusted, maybe 200 instead of 300.

Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 23. Apr 2015, 21:17
There is a limit to the number of poll options, so I tried to cover the main aspects of how I felt they could be adjusted down to their cost level. I think for now changing the damage type, and maybe the range as well would be a good fix, as we don't want to nerf them to the ground. I can try and make a new thread with a poll

I think that results of the current poll are obvious. So you can close current poll (and present results in the form of commentary here) and start new - for better clarity concentrate all thoughts about this topic only in one thread.  :)

By the way - very useful thread I think.  ;)
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 24. Apr 2015, 19:07
Haha I made a billion options for this one, I think it should narrow it down a bit.
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: goat stealer am 28. Apr 2015, 01:44
It's kind of funny that Mordor's evil men are so limited and are frequently outclassed by orcs and trolls while in Isengard we have the opposite happening.

I like the idea of implementing the torches so they're more dangerous to structures than units, with the exception of ents of course.

Just spitballing an idea here, but what if upon spawning the wildmen are equipped with standard clubs that have mediocre damage against everything and to circumvent this, you can choose one of two upgrades? One would equip them with weapons like axes, knives, ect. and make them more efficient against units (but not so much so to outclass uruks) while the other lights their clubs on fire and makes them more effective against structures and ents? Yes? No? Maybe so?
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 28. Apr 2015, 22:04
That could be an interesting comprimise.
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Sporf_McGorf am 28. Apr 2015, 22:19
Zitat
Just spitballing an idea here, but what if upon spawning the wildmen are equipped with standard clubs that have mediocre damage against everything and to circumvent this, you can choose one of two upgrades? One would equip them with weapons like axes, knives, ect. and make them more efficient against units (but not so much so to outclass uruks) while the other lights their clubs on fire and makes them more effective against structures and ents?

A great idea. This would require a nerf of their current damage output with clubs and allow a far more useful unit to be available than the current Wildmen overall. Though, I wonder how often they will be considered a viable melee option unless their improved weapons damage output was comparable or better then that of unimproved Uruk-hai. I can see investing a little something extra in them being enough of a reason to give them an above average damage output with melee weapons. That would make them useful in the game as a supporting unit. If they are always bound to be weaker than Uruks even when upgraded, there's not much point in using them for anything but spam.
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 28. Apr 2015, 22:22
Honestly, I never liked these units.  xD
Their vanilla design, their purpose for Isengard, animation while throwing torches ... even in the movie I had problem with them.  8-|
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Sporf_McGorf am 28. Apr 2015, 22:31
Zitat
Honestly, I never liked these units. 

I agree, but they are a canonically accurate piece of the Isengard lore and should definitely be a trainable unit, regardless of desirability. I think they can be a whole lot more useful than they are currently, with some adjustments and tweaks.

But they are unsightly and somewhat silly, yes. But essential nevertheless.
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 28. Apr 2015, 22:37
they are a canonically accurate piece of the Isengard lore

In the book they had at least characters and reasonable purposes when Saruman recruited them. In the movie they really were like crazy wild men with torches. :(
But it is for long debate like another LOTR things. ;)

I really like Edain implementation that they are on the settlement and that Isengard base is primarily about Uruk-hai.
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Sporf_McGorf am 28. Apr 2015, 22:48
Zitat
But it is for long debate like another LOTR things.

Totally agree, but not necessarily to any productive end.


Zitat
I really like Edain implementation that they are on the settlement and that Isengard base is primarily about Uruk-hai.

Yes, Edain has captured them in a useful and unique way. I think they deserve a bit more attention than they currently get... they could be an interesting utility unit.
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Derebond am 30. Apr 2015, 20:02
I've voted for Option 1 PLUS reduction in range.

I'm agree with the extra damage to buildings with torches, it's logic: fire is more destructive than swords. I'm agree too with the special attack against Ents or Nâzguls, Mûmakils... Against this kind of beasts. We can see it in movies and Tolkien's lore. Trolls, Wargs or Wights are exceptions for limite the power of torches againsts units.

But I don't understand the high range, better than crossbow Uruks. I think if torches haven't use for attack units and the range is reduced, they can stay with the "extra attack speed" (just if damage produced is a bit lower than a crossbow Uruk). So their power won't be very strong (early unit) but stay as a useful unit.

In my opinion, torches prize is balanced. A reduction could become an early spam for harass and destroy enemy citadel.

Sorry for my english, it's not my mother tongue :)
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 1. Mai 2015, 20:46
From the votes it seems that damage type and range both should be changed, the rest of it is probably something to balance out in a later patch after we see how these changes effect overall balance.
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: LordMaus am 11. Mai 2015, 16:29
try to make some comments for other suggestions too maybe ? 20 comments for torch issue is too much I think lol
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 11. Mai 2015, 20:22
Other than bugs Isengard is pretty balanced. Wildmen are really the only thing that needs adjusting, otherwise I think they play how they should: rush for economy at the start, then start pumping out cheap uruks.
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 11. Mai 2015, 20:56
I think they play how they should: rush for economy at the start, then start pumping out cheap uruks.

Well, Uruks aren't exactly what you want to call cheap, and that's may be a little problem :/
when you get the full discount you can make Uruks at about 170 which is insanely cheap compared to their potential.
I believe this will be addressed in the future. it would be a slight change, but should make Isengard a little more balanced.
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 12. Mai 2015, 17:47
Yeah exactly, they could maybe use tweaking but compared to say Rohan they are overall fairly complete. I do agree Uruks maybe get a little too cheap, but I think a relatively small change would be okay.
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: radagasti01 am 8. Feb 2016, 17:20
So i'm not the only one who thinked that Wildman was Overpowered. Also whitout torches. They are strong against Building and Unit. Is incredible how they can fight almost at the same power against Dwarf, Gondor basic infantry.
They need to be less powerful against unit if they are so strong against Building.
Btw, except that i think Isengard is really well balanced.
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 8. Feb 2016, 17:55
I personally think that Wildmen are not overpowered.  They the strength of Wildman is really based off 2 factors, which are the amount of Buffs Isengard has available early on, and Wulfgar.  By themselves they really aren't that strong.  They can not get an Armour upgrade (unless you have level up Wulfgar) and they have no counter to Cavalry (again, unless you level up Wulfgar). 
Of course, if Wildmen have Torches, Tainted Land, Warchant, and murder of crows supporting them, they will be stronger then most non-elite units, but without something supporting them they aren't that strong.  And their damage against buildings isn't too high either.
Uruk-hai are much stronger then Wildmen, as they should be, but they also cost more.  I think that it is pretty balanced now.
Titel: Re: WIldmen with torches
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 8. Feb 2016, 22:22
Damn, here's an old thread, has posts from Tiberius in it  :o

In the current version of Edain I would say that the Wildmen are balanced enough. The problem is that like Mordor, Isengard is reasonably strong in all stages of the game, unlike good factions which are strong at specific stages in the game(Rohan/Iron Hills early game, Lorien/Erebor mid-game, and Gondor/Ered Luin late game)
We have to look at balancing factions on the whole rather then on a unit by unit basis. I'm not going to vote in this poll because I don't think it was set up for the current version of Edain.