600 (Machine of war I)This is to OP.
1000 (machine of war II)
Isengard can kill cavalery easy with wargs, because wargs makes more Damage. They don't need Spears in EG.Zitat600 (Machine of war I)This is to OP.
1000 (machine of war II)
I have to agree Skeeverboy.
We had lower prices in versions of 4. before, but Iseangart was able to recruit middlegame units in early game and so no other fraction had a chance (except Arnor, because one unit was really damn OP).
The current prices are OK, only the ressource building costs 8-|
But in the early game wargs are the best counter against normal cavallary of all fractions.
Greetings, CynasFan
Sorry for my english, i´m native german xD
But Grishnak don't come in the EG...
Isengard scouts should cost 200, like any other factions early infantry?Scouts are stronger as other eg infantry...
You can't just expect a good erly game when playing Isengard given the insane late game you get.^This
They just have nothing that can counter the spam.Wargs can counter them easy, and wildmen are perfect ork-killers.
ZitatYou can't just expect a good erly game when playing Isengard given the insane late game you get.
We don't want every faction to be completely equal. If every faction would have the same strength as every other faction at every given time, there would be nearly no differences betweent he factions and it would be very boring.
Isengard already has a really strong lategame and a strong Isengard army is one of the strongest armies in the game.
So they need to be weaker in other parts of the game, f.e. the EG. Isengard has problems in the beginning, but afterwards they get stronger and stronger, while other factions have other power peaks..
ZitatYou can't just expect a good erly game when playing Isengard given the insane late game you get.
We don't want every faction to be completely equal. If every faction would have the same strength as every other faction at every given time, there would be nearly no differences betweent he factions and it would be very boring.
Isengard already has a really strong lategame and a strong Isengard army is one of the strongest armies in the game.
So they need to be weaker in other parts of the game, f.e. the EG. Isengard has problems in the beginning, but afterwards they get stronger and stronger, while other factions have other power peaks..
Not sure if you understood me right, but that's exactly what I meant. ;)
The point of early game with Mordor is to ignore enemy units and go for economy buildings, including the Wildmen Hut. Don't try to deny this, because I have seen you do it in a couple of our games. If a good Mordor player keeps this up, he can easily destroy all of Isengard's outer economy buildings, force him to waste money on Sentry Towers to defend his inner ones, keep him pinned in his base, then follow up with cirith ungol units and a couple battering rams to basically kill him. I've experienced this from both sides, and it is very effective. Rohan is even easier, once you have Gamling and enough peasant spam you can easily take the whole map, make an outpost close to Isengard's base and make some rams there, and finish him off.ZitatThey just have nothing that can counter the spam.Wargs can counter them easy, and wildmen are perfect ork-killers.
The EG from Gondor and Dwarvens is so strong how the from Rohan and Mordor to. Gondor and Dwarvens need 2 minutes to buy all buildings in the fortress. Mordor and Rohan need the same time, and all of this 4 factions can spamm units when they do this.
easily killed by the weakest pikes in the game.THAN DON'T RUN IN THE PIKES :D
If they have a mixed army of pikes and swords, than what are you supposed to do?Then the scouts attack the spears. Do you think that it will good for the gameplay, when cavallery can run over pikes?
isengard should be able to spam wildeman i think they should be kinda like the rohans peasants
isengard should be able to spam wildeman i think they should be kinda like the rohans peasants
Good idea 8-|
Maybe the Wildman hut can generate resources?
Good idea 8-|
Maybe the Wildman hut can generate resources?
why not they are thieves and barbarians after all i think the huy of the wildmans needs a upgrade that after you get it it gives a passive skill to wildmans to steal moneyisengard should be able to spam wildeman i think they should be kinda like the rohans peasants
Good idea 8-|
Maybe the Wildman hut can generate resources?
Wildmen already steal money by default, I always thought that was a pretty useful ability.Yes, they are very useful and strong in the early game, in some match-ups even too strong.
I think the main problem is that Mordor and Rohan are disproportionately strong at the moment.No, this isn't the problem. I think all Factions (Dwarvens, Gondor, Mordor and Rohan) have the same strength in EG, MG and LG.
What EliteKryptik has described, being able to ignore enemy units and just keep going after their buildings is not healthy gameplay.What he mean was just to destroy his ressorucebuildings. I think it was the aim of the patch, that harassment will promoted, or wasn't it?
If you play isengard right Mordor doesnt come in the late game :PI'll 1v1 you some time once the beta is released to the public. I would dearly like to see you beat an orc spam with Widlmen spam.
Against Rohan heroes like gamling you have a lurtz ;)
If you want a 1on1 , i can show you the power of wildmen :P
Wildmen cost money, orcs don't.Yes, but the Wildmen steal money from Mordor, so it can't buy expensive things. And the First Wildmen cost 450 (300 for wildmen hut and 150 for first wildmen), a orkbuilding 500.
ZitatWildmen cost money, orcs don't.Yes, but the Wildmen steal money from Mordor, so it can't buy expensive things. And the First Wildmen cost 450 (300 for wildmen hut and 150 for first wildmen), a orkbuilding 500.
Orkspamm isn't so op how you think. Orks die very fast and have no chance again a updatet army. When you destroy Mordors orkbuilding in the EG it needs long to buy a new, and with dunlands you can do this very fast.
If you have only problems with the price of uruk scouts, than it could be better if scouts costs less with the mines. At the moment only normal uruks get cheaper by them, if scouts would get cheaper with them also there wouldn´t be a problem.
I think, that is the easiest way of balancing and fits with Isengards economy.
Greetings, CynasFan
It won't balance it, because scouts are stronger as the other start infantry.
You can't really count on them getting level 2 on their own, as they don't last very long once the fighting starts.My two scouts (multiplyer) getting level 2 by 80% of my 1v1. IdK what you do with your scouts, but when you have the money to buy lurtz or ugluk you can buy the isengard upgrade and have heavy uruks, who are stronger as gondor soldiers.
and then massacring the scouts with archers.Than attack the archers. It is easy to kill them in EG, when you ignore the gondor soldiers and attack just the archer.
Scouts are not the strongest early game infantry, Traitors of Rohan are. A good Rohan player can easily push with a couple of traitors and Gamling, and massacre your scouts.
Gondor Soldier spam with a little bit of hero/archer support also beats them, because of the formation. Gondor can also do a quick cavalry rush, which is extremely effective against Isengard.
Orc spam is free, and used correctly can get any resource building when combined with Tainted Land or Eye of Sauron, and Wildmen stealing resources is not enough to stop the orc spam, Isengard ultimately loses out. Once the Nazgul hit the field, its probably GG for Isengard.
Dwarven Guardians win against scouts easily, especially Iron Hills and Ered Luin. With a little support from Bilbo its no challenge at all to defeat scouts.
Finally, both scouts AND Wildmen are extremely weak to a quick cavalry rush, which has been mentioned earlier. Wargs are not a suitable counter to this, because they can be easily killed by pikes, which all factions but Isengard can get very easily. Simply put, Isengard early game is weak against all factions, and especially weak against Rohan and Mordor. Now, this is not much of a problem against Gondor or Dwarves, but it is a serious problem against Mordor and Rohan. Instead of nerfing them even more, just make the scouts a wee bit cheaper, and weaker, to contend with the early game spam. Same with Wildmen and Wulfgar. Finally, add a cheap Wildmen Pike unit to counter early game cavalry rushes.
All of the things I just listed have been performed either by me or against me, in at least 50+ games on both GameRanger and Tunngle. With the new economy system, Isengard is even weaker then it was before, and something should be done to marginally improve their early game. I understand that they are supposed to be a bit weaker early game, but it is too much currently.
A good Rohan player can easily push with a couple of traitors and Gamling, and massacre your scouts.Theoden+Gamling cost 1600, so they can't come both in the EG, just one. In the time were you have the two, Isengard have Uruks.
ZitatA good Rohan player can easily push with a couple of traitors and Gamling, and massacre your scouts.Theoden+Gamling cost 1600, so they can't come both in the EG, just one. In the time were you have the two, Isengard have Uruks.
Can someone of you make a Replay, to show how you play with Isengard in EG? Because a evidence is better, so we can see the problem that you have. (Not a test, a real Replay from two good players with the same strength)
Show please a Replay, because Uruks aren't feed. They are the strongest normal Infantry in the game.
Even though I agree that Herr Skeever plays Mordor a lot better than Rohan :D , you KryPtik wouldn't have done anything like that for the only reason you could NOT have known how he started, because Rohan doesn't have any power to scout. But I agree with you on the idea: you have to harass as much as you can when you play Rohan, especially when you are facing Isengard. Skeever did not do it well in this replay. If you want to see Rohan winning Isengard, check one of my last replays in the strategy section (the game was played on Brandywine)My strategy remains the same regardless of whether or not I know what my enemy is. Rohan needs to end the game quickly, because they stand no chance late game. So any good player is extremely aggressive, and I would have gone to his base even though I didn't know what faction he was. Once I saw he was Isengard, I would have just redoubled my efforts to bring him down quickly. Once the current beta is made public and I can play with normal people again, I'll happily 1v1 anybody who wants to as Rohan with them as Isengard, so I can show just how hopeless it is for Isengard. That won't be for a couple of weeks though, because of the beta :)
I'm ready to play a 1v1 at any time. In my opinion Isengart can beat rohan. You can proove me wrong if you want.Yes, they do beat Rohan late game very easily, but a skilled, aggressive player can easily shut down and kill Isengard as Rohan.
but I'm talking about killing the tower before it finishes construction.Than Isengard consturct them, before your traitors are there.
Even tough I hate myself for deepen this dicussion and writing this post there are some things I would like to say.
I watched the replay you posted above and took myself some time to observe it carefully. So there are a few things I noticed which actually don't correspond with your describing of this replay being a "perfect demonstration" of your point.
Said in advance: I do not want to offend anyone by my analysis of this game. In fact I personally would be glad if someone spend his time and offered myself such a detailed analysis and critic. But enough of that, lets come to the main part of my comment:
1) Isengart didn't build any ressource-structures in the frist 2-3 minutes. Even though he had always about 500 ress the refused to build any kind building
--> Economy is far behind (btw.: why would you spend money for lutz level-up so early in the game when you don't even use them? You can easily buy it 1 minute later with having at least one ress-building)
2) Why is isen building furnaces? You have to get cheaper uruks and not cheaper upgrades to survive the eg/mg
3) when rohan attacked the base, isen was building a tower at the other side of the base, which couldn't even have protected the furnace.
4) the second tower was useless because it wasn't even protecting the first one
so what is the situation after rohans first attack?
--> no economy because no farms
--> no baracks
--> no troops
--> not even sufficent towers (only one) to protect the base from another runby
5) isen is neither building nor upgrading ress structures after he frist pushed you back
--> how is he supposed to defend with only his beginning troops+his eg-hero?
--> how is he supposed to reach mg with no economy in his main base, only having vulnerable outer ress-buildings?
6) when it came to the fight: Isen could easily have kited the peasents or at least shot at them while they were attacking buildings
All those mistakes I listed were severe and would have led by themselves to a game-loss
I hope my points were rather clear. As I said earlier this post is no offense but only a hint, that this replay isn't any kind of evidence.
I would be happy if anyone could proove in a 1v1 that isengard doesn't have any chance against eg-aggression, because every step we take will bring us nearer to a more balanced mod.