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[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Angmar Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: Lord of Mordor am 3. Apr 2016, 01:07

Titel: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Lord of Mordor am 3. Apr 2016, 01:07

In this thread, you can discuss balancing issues with the Angmar faction. If you feel a balance topic is so big it deserves its own thread, you're free to create one, but for smaller points this thread might be useful.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 4. Apr 2016, 14:13

Good day :)

Now I know it says if the balance topic is big, making a thread is an option, but this post is really about Angmar balance in general, and not one specific unit or ability so I think it should go in this thread. 

So in my opinion, Angmar is a bit overpowered in this version of Edain.  Now there are a lot of reasons for this, but I'm still fairly new to the faction and how exactly to play it, because of how diverse it is.  But my first reason is fairly obvious. 

The Heroes:  This is the most powerful part of Angmar in my opinion.  Credit to the Edain Team here, all of these heroes are very well made, and have very good abilities.  But the problem is....... They are ALL very well made, and have very good abilities. And there is 9 of them.  It's like the Fellowship of the Iron Crown.  This gives Angmar such a huge advantage.  The only heroes that die decently easily are Drauglin, being a scout hero, and Helegwen, being a ranged hero.  Every other hero starts with 4500 or 5500 health if I remember that correctly.  And because of their numbers, they can really gang up on enemy heroes, and don't really have much of a threat of dieing, especially because..... Well read my next topic.  So I would suggest right now to lower the stats of the heroes a little bit.  Not to much to make them too hard to keep alive, but enough so they aren't so strong when together.

Freezing:  Angmar has so many ways of freezing the enemy.  Sorcerers can do it, Helegwen can do it, Zafragor can do it to heroes (which doesn't help the Hero problem mentioned earlier), and the biggest problem, Durmarth can do it to everyone with every attack.  There just can't be this many in my opinion.  Durmarth is the one who I think doesn't need it at all, because he is already a great hero, so removing his ability to freeze with every attack would help a lot.  But Angmar has so many Crowd Control methods, especially in the SpellBook, so another might need to be removed.

The Spellbook:  I really like how these problem transition into another :).

Anyways, back on topic.  The Spellbook is SO strong for Angmar.  I've seen Angmar kill entire Armies just using freezing and the Spellbook together to kill entire armies.  Fellwind work perfectly with the other powers because it clumps everyone together.  Frozen Land does pretty much the he same thing, but also doesn't let heroes or units escape.  Snowbind makes attacking Angmar such a pain.  And the strongest power Angmar has is Spread Plague, Which kills, not weakens, but kills anything that is not heavily Armoured elites or heroes.  Spread Plague brought down my army of Fully Upgraded Uruk-Hai down to the point where they almost die.  I can't even imagine to factions that rely on weaker units such as Mordor.  Now I do realize that balance for a power such as this is very hard to find, because too strong and it will be always used, and too weak and it will be never used, but if you can find it, it would be much appreciated, because right now it is stronger then Avalanche, which is also a very good Power.  Also, I would recommend making Frozen Land and SnowBind cost 3 points each.  The Orc summon can stay at 2.

The Troll Summon (can't remember the name) has a very weird balance.  The Hill Trolls themselves are incredibly easy to kill because they have 1400 health each, but Rogash is extremely strong if used well.  So I would recommend giving the Hill Trolls a lot more health.  As for Rogash, I'm going to need to test him out a bit more, but right now, he is really what Mollock should be.  But maybe I'm a bit biased, so I will test him more before I can say if he needs to change. 

Well that is pretty much it in terms of the major things.  Just a few other notes.

-Angmar is hard to play defending fortresses like Minas Tirith due to lack of settlements, which means not leveling up your production buildings.  So maybe those maps need to allow the carts to spawn from the Citadel.

-Wolf Riders are too hard to get because of the upgrade you need to purchase.  I know that it is used to Angmar can't rush them so quickly, but in my opinion, it also makes them not worth getting. 

-I think Thralls should be able to use Banner Carriers.  Not much else to say about that. 

-The Mill's discount just seems inferior to the Smelter's discount, as wolfs cost barely anything already, and upgrading your Men of Carn Dum is pretty key to winning. 

-On camp maps, the Angmar base has barely any room in it because of how big some of the buildings, such as the Hall of the King's Men and Dark Iron Forge. 

And that's it for now.  I would like to hear feedback from everyone, to see if I'm missing everything, or if I'm wrong about something.

Greetings, Hamanathnath
________________________ ______________________
EDIT:  Forgot 2 small things.  Stronghold of the Iron Crown also doesn't work on Fortress Maps when defending, which makes it useless there.  And also, while this has nothing to do with balance, but can Rogash have his Rise of the Witch King voice back?  I won't mind if he keeps the cave troll voice, but I really liked his old (if also a bit corny) lines :)

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 9. Apr 2016, 02:02

Im completely agree with haman but I would like to add a few things.

1 Mages are way too powerfull and the idea to allow them to use all powers only purchasing 1 ( which is overpowered only paying 100 you get other more expensive powers) but also making much more easier their management. I think they should only be able to use 1 power no more, and dmg of death rain ( dunno the exact name) is too hig can decimate entire armies.

2 the stun of the mages is supposed to make enemie and alli units invulnerable, but they can still get poison dmg so corpse rain and plague powers ( from spellbokk and gulzar still damaging heavily the troops, way too powerfull.

3Then we go to the main units: Hillmen feels really weak and waste of money keeping in mind that each slave master costs 200 and each sumoneable unit cost a strandard price( you end up getting hillmen pikemen, orcs or axethrowers at the same price than other factions and the dmg buff you can get with settlements is not enough at all to compesate their high cost. I think reducing the price of the slave masters to 100 would be a good move to increase the value of this angmar units.

4 Kingsmen reduction cost should be given by some kind of farm or settlement and not from a hero. I find too necessary to use monamarth when he is 1 of the worsts heros for ealry game, but if you get him too late you wont be able to get elite troops and sooner or later other enemies will end up destroying your armie ( Unless you manage well mages and wights, i think this 2 units are the actual key of the faction, all other units feels like free orcs, just to use them as wall for my true power...)

5 In general all heros are too good on their roles all abilities feels very good ( no useless abilities or medium utility abilities) all are really powerfull and can change how a battle ends. Specially powerfull heros Zaphragor and Gulzar, both can destroy big number of enemies with their firsts abilities. Hwaldar stats are too high also.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: ringbearer am 9. Apr 2016, 08:48

Zitat von: Draco100000 am  9. Apr 2016, 02:02

Im completely agree with haman but I would like to add a few things.

1 Mages are way too powerfull and the idea to allow them to use all powers only purchasing 1 ( which is overpowered only paying 100 you get other more expensive powers) but also making much more easier their management. I think they should only be able to use 1 power no more, and dmg of death rain ( dunno the exact name) is too hig can decimate entire armies.

Well, mages are able to use all the powers only after you build tower of sorcery. You need 1200 for outpost, 500 for tower of sorcery , 500 for mage and 100/200/400 for one power which after this unlock all the others. It's 2300 resources for a unit which can be easily killed by any cav.

I agree with point 2 and 4  :)

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 9. Apr 2016, 12:02

Easily killed by cav? with that slows? Just freeze them and poison them is not that hard, you just have to maintaint them behind your armie. Also you can slow the caval, stun and flank it with your armie. GG easy 2 battallions of mages can make hillmen stronger than an entire upgraded armie of gondor ( plus all armor and dmg reductions, hillmen looks like elite units)

Even expending that amount of money corpse rain combined with other abilities is too usefull, just combining it with the abilitie that heals your units when the enemie units die is like a massive wizard blast that actually kill almost everything and maintain your armie alive, and just using 2 abilities. Mages are very cheap to how usefull they are. They can be limited in numbers to 2 for example and increased cost.

Another way to make them weaker would be increase enormously the time of respawn of the acolytes so you have to wait a lot of time to use again corpse rain or freezing that requires lot of acolytes but you can still using from time to time healing and slow down.

Even limited to 2 battallions they will still destroying entire armies. I dont understand their role in the faction, they are too powerfull and adds angmar unnecesary stuff. More slows more poison dmg...

I dont know i feel this mages really cool but really unbalanced too.

PD: 2300 resorces is poor quantity of money spècially with the amount of extra cash you get from the builders that upgrade buildings. You dont have to expend money in upgrade this buildings while you are also able to get 250-500 money per builder. Also you are not expending 2300 resources in 1 units, you get an outpost with the tactical advantage it means as well you  get instantly a builder that gives you 500 resources that make the real cost of the outpost 700, so no I cannot agree with you.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: BalkanLuka am 9. Apr 2016, 14:06

Greatly support the opinion of Hammananth and of Draco in certain points.

1- In the current game i absolutley feel discouraged to use wolf riders because it is far more easier and useful to use black numenorians with a lv3 baracks, the required upgrade for the wolf cavalry, though preventing early wolf spam also makes them apear in late game where their strategic impact and utility is greatly reduced, thus forcing the player to only use the viable option and that is the black numenorian army.

The player should have an alternative in mid-game, should i chose a mass thrall army that can't be upgraded but encompanied by fast wolf riders, or a smaller thrall army folowed by upgraded black numenorieans. Thus i suggest removing the wolf breeding requirement for the Wolf riders, and just adding the lv.2 building reqirement, acompanied by small nerfs if recuired.

2-Tribute carts, the speed of spawning is fine, the resource bonus is fine, but the thing that bothers me is how fast you can level up your buildings,especially to lv3. As other factions you must folow a cycle- make economic buildings/make army to defend them/upgrade economy/upgrade ilitary bases to lv.3 , but Angmar does not folow that rule, which is fine for diversivication but should be toned down a bit.

My sugestion is this, ONE tribute cart is needed for lv. 2 building, but TWO for lv.3 This would make the use of tribute carts more strategic in planing your base and units that you want to be faster produced, requiring prioratising but not severely hampering you because it is only for lv.3 ,thus late-game, giving the choice to angmar players to specificly target the unit tactic they want ,be it the numenorian,sorcerror, werewolf or advanced sieage and upgrades, and not having all of them at once. In the current situation in more than one multiplayer match  i was saved by sorrcerers killing even cavalry charges by simply stunlock-soul freezing and later mass poisoning them,only to be finished off by minor thrall masses. The problem is i did this too early, i had a lv.3 Temple of twilight and lv.3Barracks, while my enemy a lv2 barracks and stable, so he could neither counter me with mass units nor quick production.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Lord of Mordor am 10. Apr 2016, 02:24

Thanks for your suggestions, everyone! :) We'll be severely toning down many of Angmar's AoE spells and increasing the cost of the sorcerers while decreasing the strength of most of their abilities for the next patch.

We also looked at several heroes and have extensively reworked Dûrmarth in particular. He is still very good at killing enemy heroes and protecting your own, but will have much less crowd control (no freezing at all), so you have to combine him with some of Angmar's other options for maximum efficiency. Furthermore, Mornamarth and Gulzar will now require the Men of Carn Dûrm or Sorcerer Outpost respectively so you have access to less heroes in your base.

We haven't changed the levelling system yet, but I like the idea of requiring two carts for level 3 and moving the wolf upgrade to level one.

Regarding some of your other, smaller points: Thrall masters can't be much cheaper without also getting weaker. Their units are similiar in strength to other basic infantry, and replenished for free on top of that. That is also why they can't use banner carriers - the thrall master is himself a banner carrier.

The mill discount's main point is discounting Werewolves, which I think can be very powerful because they're so expensive.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 10. Apr 2016, 03:35

I'm glad to hear that the AoE spells will be toned down.  :)

About Sorcerer's, I did not mention them in my original post because I didn't use them enough to have an opinion on them.  The main problem I have with them right now is their Command Point cost, which is dreadfully low.  I think it needs to be at least 45 CP per group. 

Moving Mornamarth and Gulzar to the Outpost upgrades sound like a great idea.  I think their price should be evened out because of this (so 2000 for each instead of 1800 and 2200).

I'm also happy about Durmarth losing his abilities to freeze armies.  It was just was too strong. 

Concerning mills, I know that the main point is to discount Werewolves.  The problem I have with this is that making Mills is more of a gamble then making Smelters.  If the enemy make a Pike based Army, which a lot of the Factions do, Werewolves aren't the best option.  But Men of Carn Dum are always part of an Angmar Army late in the game.  And even if you do want to use Werewolves, generally making too many of them isn't worth it, not only because enough pikes can ruin that plan, but also you have the chance of really feeding your enemies heroes with Experience.  I'm not saying Werewolves are a bad unit, because they are strong.  But like every Monster in the game, they have a big weakness, and because of this, making a lot of them isn't a good idea, making the discount to them not as useful as the Smelter discount.

Greetings,  Hamanathnath

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: BalkanLuka am 10. Apr 2016, 10:39

I just read Lord of Mordors response concerning the Sorcerers and the intent to weaken them, im fine with that but please reconsider increasing their price, i think their price is fine, if it would be bigger it would be higly discouragng to use them, weak+expensive is not popular, instead maybe you can leave their price the same, but increase the upgrade cost of Soul freeze,Corpse rain and Well of souls, who are the main reason for their power and not the sorrcerer itself who has only support abilities if left un-upgraded.

Second either increase their CP cost as other suggested, or increase production time, so if  a player wants more sorcerers,then he must focus tribut to them, while losing the posibility of creating faster thralls and wolves.

As for the ability strenght i think they are ok, havent noticed that they are ultra effectiive, the only problem is how fast you get them- cost, time, building lv. shuld weaken them and not directly the sorcerror.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: ringbearer am 10. Apr 2016, 10:57

Zitat von: Lord of Mordor am 10. Apr 2016, 02:24

Furthermore, Mornamarth and Gulzar will now require the Men of Carn Dûrm or Sorcerer Outpost respectively so you have access to less heroes in your base.

I don't think it's a good idea, I can't think of anyone who would choose Gulzar insted of Mornamarth. Mornamarth is strongly linked to Man of Carn Dum, makes them cheaper and more powerfull while Gulzar has his own accolytes, he doesn't need sorcerers and they don't need him. Time will tell but I bet it will end up with no Gulzar at all in games.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 10. Apr 2016, 11:45

Zitat von: ringbearer am 10. Apr 2016, 10:57

Zitat von: Lord of Mordor am 10. Apr 2016, 02:24

Furthermore, Mornamarth and Gulzar will now require the Men of Carn Dûrm or Sorcerer Outpost respectively so you have access to less heroes in your base.

I don't think it's a good idea, I can't think of anyone who would choose Gulzar insted of Mornamarth. Mornamarth is strongly linked to Man of Carn Dum, makes them cheaper and more powerfull while Gulzar has his own accolytes, he doesn't need sorcerers and they don't need him. Time will tell but I bet it will end up with no Gulzar at all in games.

I think i would use it depending in the situation, if my enemie is a spam-faction I would use gulzgar because his great poison dmg. If my enemie is armoured and lower in troops i wiould choose men of carn dum because sooner or later i will have to use men of carn dum and the reduction cost is really needed.


In my opinion the hero who should be recrutable in the outpost is durmath, I see monamarth too important hero to be in an outpost.

Zitat von: Hamanathnath am 10. Apr 2016, 03:35

About Sorcerer's, I did not mention them in my original post because I didn't use them enough to have an opinion on them.  The main problem I have with them right now is their Command Point cost, which is dreadfully low.  I think it needs to be at least 45 CP per group. 

I would say even 120 cp. There are units like dwarven hunters who take this amount of cp and cannot kill entire armies. As well elite archers so mages should be in this group of high cp cost units.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 10. Apr 2016, 19:08

I agree with moving Wolf Breeding to level 1, because the wolf riders are an early game unit, who become ineffective in late game. I also heavily agree with requiring 2 tribute carts to make a level 3 building.

Agree with all of Hamans points in his first post.

I think moving Mornamarth and Gulzar to the outpost is a good idea, but I have a problem with Mornamarth. It takes a huge amount of time to get him to level 8, I think that the discount ability should be swapped out with another ability and unlock at a sooner level. The lack of discount really makes Men of Carn Dum less valuable until very late game, at least for me. I find that Hillmen spam combined with the Hillmen settlements can do a huge amount of damage combined with wights. Which brings me to something not brought up.

WIGHTS! Holy crap these things are strong, they just don't die. They're like berserkers on steroids. Something needs to be done to nerf them, either cost or something else, because right now you don't even need to make any barrow wight lairs for discounts. Just spam those Hillmen or Orcs until you have an outpost, then make the wight lair on that. Once you have 5-10 wights and Karsh you can take down upgraded armies of elite units with nothing but hillmen and wights. Now, with some AoE power nerfs this might not be as true, but I still think that wights are incredibly cost effective right now, probably the best single style unit do to their health steal.

Finally, I have an idea for Plague. I agree that this is an extremely strong power, and if we look in the lore it basically is what kills off the last resistance in Arnor. So I think that Avalanche and Spread Plague should be swapped, plague for 10 points and avalanche for 7. Avalanche is good, but I feel like its not quite worth it as a 10 point power, while plague feels overpowered as a 7 point power.

So those are my thoughts :)

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 12. Apr 2016, 12:44

The ET's decision to lock Mornamarth and Gulzar behind the Outpost upgrades to the Men of Carn Dûm and the Sorcerer's Tower respectively, seems like a good way to balance out the amount of heroes recruitable from the fortress.

The reasoning behind Mornamarth I see as that you never recruit him without choosing for creating an army of Men of Carn Dûm, just like you want him to support those Men once you start your army to focus on the late game elite units they are.
Gulzar, also makes sense, although I agree he seems to work more on his own. But then again, all those sorcerers really do work on their own, using the acolytes. I agree that these units need to be nerfed: the most significant changes would be to increasing their recruitment time and the amount of Command Points they need: either to 45 as they are supporting/single units (comparable to Battle Wagons, Beornings and Uruk Berserkers) or 120 because they actually have the abilities to support a large army (like heroic units such as the Dol Amroth Knights, Minas Morgul Knights etc.).

Concerning Dûrmarth: would it make sense to lock his passive Seals behind the heroes that he receives them from? I was thinking of a few options:

1) As soon as these heroes (Witch-King, Karsh, Mornamarth, and Gulzar) are recruited, the passives take action respectively for which heroes are on the battlefield.
2) A combination of the first option with the requierement of levelling up Dûrmarth to specific levels.
3) Only giving the passives once these heroes reach a certain level, such as level 10. In this case, the passives should remain with Dûrmarth after those heroes die.

I understand that Dûrmarth's progress as a hero is intrinsically linked to the mightier heroes of Angmar (I imagine this is how the Fan-fiction was written?) so I believe there needs to be a more sensible way of implementing this. In addition to this, it allows the team to reduce Dûrmarth's cost and attributes to resemble more a hero that is moderately strong in Early Game, relatively weak in Mid Game, but reasonably strong in Late Game protecting other heroes and slaying enemy heroes.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 12. Apr 2016, 13:48

Zitat von: Garlodur am 12. Apr 2016, 12:44

The reasoning behind Mornamarth I see as that you never recruit him without choosing for creating an army of Men of Carn Dûm, just like you want him to support those Men once you start your army to focus on the late game elite units they are.

On the contrary, I would argue, at least in 4.3, that getting Mornamarth before you get your Men of Carn Dum is actually a better idea.  The reason behind this is Blood and Iron, while it does strengthen from nearby Men of Carn Dum,  it also hurts them.  But even without Men of Carn Dum nearby, Blood and Iron can kill hordes of Weak units if used properly (again, this was in 4.3, not completely sure if this is still the case in 4.3.1).

As for all your other suggestions, especially on Durmarth, I would recommend playing 4.3.1 if you haven't already, where a lot of changes took place concerning Durmarth and Sorcerers.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 14. Apr 2016, 14:59

Hmm, I have a few points I wanted to bring about.

1: The Obelisk
How much is the debuff, the cooldown reduction and its health/armour?
Spam heavy factions (Mordor in particular) suffer greatly from Obelisks, with only Carc's ravens being a similar ability. However, the ravens are temporary and also serve as scouts. The obelisk being permanent and with a good amount of health, I feel that the obelisk should be made weaker with also a smaller debuff range.
2: I discussed this in the internal forums already, but the Carn-Dûm Pikemen's passive ability is really overpowered. How are you supposed to counter them if all attacks, even ranged, reflect portions back to the aggressors? Not to begin about how heinous the amounts of damage heroes take while trying to deal with them. Either nerf it drastically, or change it. This ability is quite toxic in design.
3: The Slayers from Mount Gram summon is very powerful. I propose it to be toned down, because I had it kill heroes with ease and it summons four hordes instead of the usual 3, for only 2 CP. Either one less horde or 1 extra CP.

We need to take a good look at all those abilities that make Angmar so incredibly powerful, especially with the Men of Carn-Dûm and their amazing abilities and the support they get.

Placing Mornamarth in the Citadel was a good change. I hope we can keep doing these kinds of changes and fine-tune the faction further.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 14. Apr 2016, 16:43

Zitat von: Odysseus am 14. Apr 2016, 14:59

Hmm, I have a few points I wanted to bring about.

1: The Obelisk
How much is the debuff, the cooldown reduction and its health/armour?
Spam heavy factions (Mordor in particular) suffer greatly from Obelisks, with only Carc's ravens being a similar ability. However, the ravens are temporary and also serve as scouts. The obelisk being permanent and with a good amount of health, I feel that the obelisk should be made weaker with also a smaller debuff range.
2: I discussed this in the internal forums already, but the Carn-Dûm Pikemen's passive ability is really overpowered. How are you supposed to counter them if all attacks, even ranged, reflect portions back to the aggressors? Not to begin about how heinous the amounts of damage heroes take while trying to deal with them. Either nerf it drastically, or change it. This ability is quite toxic in design.
3: The Slayers from Mount Gram summon is very powerful. I propose it to be toned down, because I had it kill heroes with ease and it summons four hordes instead of the usual 3, for only 2 CP. Either one less horde or 1 extra CP.

We need to take a good look at all those abilities that make Angmar so incredibly powerful, especially with the Men of Carn-Dûm and their amazing abilities and the support they get.

Placing Mornamarth in the Citadel was a good change. I hope we can keep doing these kinds of changes and fine-tune the faction further.

Agree about Obelisk, its a bit strong, needs a slight nerf.
lso totally agree about Pikemen, they should at the very least not reflect damage back on heroes and archers, although I know that Axe and Spear Throwers would still be vulnerable, but this is better than having your entire army torn to pieces.
I don't know about mount gram, I don't think they are too strong, I mean Lorien gets that fucking Mirkwood summon at 3 PP which is quite good, Tauriel can kill heroes.
I think Rogash summon is really strong now, one of the strongest in the game, even more than 3 hunters and Gandalf. Those trolls + Rogash deal insanse amounts of knockback damage.
Dark Rangers need to be made massively more vulnerable to trample, they can stand up to cavalry far too well. They also do incredible damage with ice arrows, a few battalions can tear up several heroes fairly easily if they focus him, something that only Silverthorns have been good at thus far, and I think should only be good at.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 14. Apr 2016, 17:33

Agree about the Troll Summon. Really powerful as well. Although, I didn't mention it personally because by 7 CP you should have some decent means to counter it, I think.

In addition, what makes the Carn-Dûm Pikemen passive technically problematic is that the engine or ability cannot differentiate between certain types of damage. Only between ranged and melee damage if I recall correctly what Ea told me.

If it would be changed, what kind of ability would replace it? I wonder hmm...

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 14. Apr 2016, 18:49

For an ability suggestion for Pikes, I would like to see something to synergize with Angmar as a whole, so something related to their status as the elite of Angmar, or something related to ice. I don't have any great ideas right now.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 14. Apr 2016, 19:17

I've been reading both the Mordor and Angmar balance threads, just would like to give some thoughts.

Carn Dum Bowmen need to take more trample damage.  They take barely any un upgraded, and are the only Elite Archer in the game, besides Spearthrowers, that are able to get Heavy Armour.   It also is one of the reasons why Mordor has a thought time against Angmar, but I'll go into detail in the Mordor Balance thread.

Carn Dum Pikemen's ability is very strong indeed.  I don't think they should replace it, but I would suggest that make it only reflect damage from melee attacks, so you can kill them with archers without taking damage.

I will also agree that the Troll Summon might be a bit too strong.  I suggest that instead of 3 Hill Trolls and Rogash, make it 2 Trolls and Rogash, but make Rogash as strong as he was in 4.3.

And I also agree that the Dark Obleisk is strong, but the problem I have with it is that it comes back really quickly, so the battlefield will be littered with them.  Maybe a 20% increase on the cooldown would be nice.

Greetings, Hamanathnath


 

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 18. Apr 2016, 10:31

I suggest a new topic: werewolves.  :) Any thoughts about them?
I have encountered them for the first time yesterday (I played against once and I used them once) and they are surprisingly very very (very) strong. They deal outrageous damage to single units (heroes, monsters, siege weapons), decent damage to buildings, are extremely fast and effective against cavalry and swordsmen but weak against pikes and archers. For instance, a midlife werewolf of mine successfully traded kills with a full life Haldir while Lorien archers were shooting at him. I am not too sure about their role, but perhaps it could be adjusted because I felt like they were hero killers, mass slayers and building destroyers at once.  :D

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 18. Apr 2016, 12:43

They were even stronger in the beta, when they still costed 1800 haha. The same principle kind of applies for Gorthaur's Werewolves who cost 2000 a piece.

The problem with Werewolves for me personally is their ridiculous speed and their tankiness paired with that speed. Their strength is also still quite high. I would like the Werewolves to be similar to the troll, but less for siege and more for infantry and cavalry.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 18. Apr 2016, 13:07

I think they are the unique early to midgame decent thig that angmar has. I think they are very easily killed by pikemen. Thats make them useless vs towerguards, palace guards, Ironhills phalanxes, uruk pikemen.... I think they are like super powerfull caval but with very high cost. I dont think they should be changed.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 18. Apr 2016, 13:55

Werewolves at early game? Spiked Collar (400) + wolf breeding (400) + 900= 1700

Do you think Werewolves are early game at 1700? I would say it is already mid game by then. Perhaps the view of early and mid game is different for a faction such as Angmar, which get huge resource and level boosts with their cart system.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 18. Apr 2016, 14:01

Zitat von: Odysseus am 18. Apr 2016, 13:55

Werewolves at early game? Spiked Collar (400) + wolf breeding (400) + 900= 1700

Do you think Werewolves are early game at 1700? I would say it is already mid game by then. Perhaps the view of early and mid game is different for a faction such as Angmar, which get huge resource and level boosts with their cart system.

Well actually you can get them earlier if you make an armie based on wolves.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 18. Apr 2016, 15:26

I think Werewolves are in a good spot right now.  They are better against some factions more then others because of their weakness to pikes, but they have some use against all factions, assuming you go for them.  I prefer going for Men of Carn Dum and Wights, and if needed, go for Werewolves against factions with weaker pikes.

I still think that going for Mills is more of a risk then going for Smelters, but I guess going for a Wolf start would make Mills more useful.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 18. Apr 2016, 15:58

@Draco

Yeah you are right. Although it is quite risky to do so. You would have to fully dedicate your army to Wolf spam. Werewolves are indeed weak to pikes and also take more damage from turrets than trolls if I am not mistaken. Yet they can self-heal with their ability, which is quite nasty. It is quite interesting that wolves are strong against pikes, and Werewolves are basically strong against everything else. Not sure if I stil like this mechanic, where Trolls and Werewolves can solo heroes, which cost more than those units.

Nonetheless, I don't think Werewolves are OP right now, they serve as very powerful shock troops/units, but have an obvious weakness and they tend to just run off into a wall of pikes and die, if you forget to ''S" them.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 19. Apr 2016, 13:48

While watching a game yesterday, I noticed that Angmar has a lot of trouble killing Ents.  Carn Dum Bowmen, even with Freezing Arrows, don't seem to do much damage to them, especially when Treebeard is around the Ents.  In the game I was watching, once the Lothlorien player started to really spam Ents, it didn't seem like Angmar could do anything.

I'm pretty sure that the match is being posted on YouTube later, and if that's the case, I'll be sure to post it here. 

The Angmar player didn't use all the units he could have, his army was mainly made up of Carn Dum units, so maybe units like Werewolves would have solved this problem.  Just bringing it up here to see if anyone else has trouble killing Ents as Angmar.

Greetings, Hamanathnath

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 19. Apr 2016, 14:15

I do wonder, yes. To me, spamming Carn-Dum Pikemen with the reflect ability is pretty much a guaranteed win. The average mass slayer will take himself/herself down to half health dealing with this frustrating ability from only a single squad. I am pretty sure that if Ents charge into them, they will just get wrecked, like anything else.

I will keep saying it: the ability is broken and needs to be fixed. It needs to be nerfed to about 10-15% or simply removed and replaced with an alternative, because it is broken design. It damages and kills things it is not even supposed to damage, like the archer sentries in Lothlorien's Base Buildings that cannot be attacked by default, units inside towers, buildings, and the list goes on.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 19. Apr 2016, 14:24

Well yes, charging Ents into pikes is generally a bad idea  :P

Most of the Ents in the game I watched were in rock throw mode.  Hopefully it will be up on YouTube later so you can see what I mean.

And yes, that ability is quite broken right now.  It really turns the tide of battles.  I think that it should be replaced with something more reasonable.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 19. Apr 2016, 15:29

I definitely agree with you on that. :)

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 20. Apr 2016, 16:53

Here is the 1v1 I was talking about:  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TyAIPMM5gkw

Elite_KryPtik and Sawman are the ones playing (as Lothlorien and Angmar, respectively), and I joined for commentary.  :)

I would recommend that you watch the entire video because it was a good match, but I you just want to see when the Ents are being made, skip to 30 mins in, where Quickbeam is made short after.  From then on, even though Angmar technically has the better army, the Ents really turn the tide of battle, becuase they seem to be hard to counter as Angmar.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 25. Apr 2016, 14:53

I've got Stone and Iron..... I mean Balancing suggestions to suggest for Angmar.  :)

Durmarth's level 3 ability (can't remember the name, the one that give Armor to a Hero) seems rather weak.  It is very useful for earlier on in the game, but it really loses its flare later in the game compared to other heroes that can give Invulerability to multiple heroes at once, such as Thorin Oakenshield and Beregond.  This is somewhat counter by the very small cooldown time of the ability, but I don't think that it is enough.  I think the improvements to the ability should be stronger then they are now.  Also, it's is a hard ability to put off because Durmarth has to bright next to the Hero he wants to use it on, and it takes about 5 seconds for the animation to complete, which is risky to do while in combat.

Zafragor has too much Armor.  I know that his increased Armor is what counters his abilities hurting himself, but it is so hard to kill him, even with Hero Killers.  This is the main reason why, in my opinion, he out preforms the Witch King in combat.
 

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 25. Apr 2016, 15:32

I concur with what has been said so far of Zaphragor. Although. I think the team is aware that Zaphragor needs some tweaks. Zaphragor is arguably the best hero in the mod at the moment compared to his cost, because even Aragorn with Blademaster or sometimes Anduril can have severe trouble dealing with him. That says pretty much everything there needs to be said.

As far as I recall, Angmar's hero killer is Durmarth, not Zaphragor. So yeah, Zaphragor's gonna receive the nerf bat to the face. I hope so at least.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 25. Apr 2016, 16:11

Zaphragor's armor is indeed too strong, although I'm not sure if it actually is intended or just an oversight. I'd just give him the standard EdainWarriorHeroArmor, he already has very high HP and regen to compensate for his abilities. Would changing his armor also affect the damage of his own abilities? Because that would be an appreciated extra benefit.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Lord of Mordor am 25. Apr 2016, 16:17

You're absolutely right, his armor is way too good at the moment. We'll be bringing it in line with other heroes for the next patch. Without further changes, this would also mean that he receives twice the damage from his own spells. Would you say that is too much or appropriate?

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 25. Apr 2016, 16:34

Hmm, well I say it is worth experimenting with to say the least. Maybe popularity for the Witch-King will increase again. I suppose the values of how much damage he does or takes from his spells can be tweaked accordingly once we test his new armour stats.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 25. Apr 2016, 16:36

I think the health he loose while casting spells is enough, you have actually to fight vs other heros and if he is gonna loose armor in next patch i think it is not needed at all to make he loose more health, then you will make him  too weak.

Remeber his coist it is 2500 being much weaker than Aragorn or Thorin wouldnt be fair thought.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 25. Apr 2016, 16:56

He's not supposed to just outright win against other heroes though, given his mass slaying capabilities. He is more of a hybrid who can win against most heroes and does some decent aoe, but not both at the same time. And he should never win against Thorin or Aragorn unless they are on low health already.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 25. Apr 2016, 17:47

Zitat von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 25. Apr 2016, 16:56

He's not supposed to just outright win against other heroes though, given his mass slaying capabilities. He is more of a hybrid who can win against most heroes and does some decent aoe, but not both at the same time. And he should never win against Thorin or Aragorn unless they are on low health already.

Of course but Im just saying instead of nerf him in both ways just select 1 and see how this affects the gameplay, if the change seems not enough then increase the dmg he gets from abilities, but just do 1 of the 2 things or armor or more health loosing.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 25. Apr 2016, 19:02

I agree with Draco100000 here.  Let's see what happens with just the Armor Decrease, and have his abilities deal the same damage they do to him now.  He does cost 2500, and too big of a nerf will make him not worth that money. 

Also, if he does deal double damage to himself..... Wouldn't his last ability instantly kill himself?  :P

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 25. Apr 2016, 19:08

+1 to what has been said. Let's try the armour decrease and decrease the cost of the amount of health the level 10 ability requires if it would instantly kill him.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Skeeverboy am 25. Apr 2016, 19:18

Zitat

Also, if he does deal double damage to himself..... Wouldn't his last ability instantly kill himself?

No, he has 8211 HP on Level 10 and his attack would cost 8000 HP so he wouldn't die :D

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 25. Apr 2016, 20:25

Zitat von: Skeeverboy am 25. Apr 2016, 19:18

Zitat

Also, if he does deal double damage to himself..... Wouldn't his last ability instantly kill himself?

No, he has 8211 HP on Level 10 and his attack would cost 8000 HP so he wouldn't die :D

Well that is good too know, though that is dangerously close to death, and using Fanaticism will make it kill himself.   :D

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Vodohaka am 5. Mai 2016, 17:26

His ability

Zitat von: Hamanathnath am 25. Apr 2016, 20:25

Zitat von: Skeeverboy am 25. Apr 2016, 19:18

Zitat

Also, if he does deal double damage to himself..... Wouldn't his last ability instantly kill himself?

No, he has 8211 HP on Level 10 and his attack would cost 8000 HP so he wouldn't die :D

Well that is good too know, though that is dangerously close to death, and using Fanaticism will make it kill himself.   :D

Yes it is but this might be a good idea to punish the 'suicide strategy' that many heroes use. Charge into a clump of units and activate your mass destruction abilities (like Gandalfs word of power). If Zaphragor can't escape that easy, I think it would more fit to his concept of powerful but weakening sorcery that must be used extremely careful.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 5. Mai 2016, 18:08

I think people is worried about how good is him as mass slayer and comparing him with other mass slayers ( Saruman, gandalf, Gimli..) and supposed ones ( Murin, Eomer..) he is way better than them and also has a secondary role as heroslayer thx to his great dmg with low health. I think Wizards shopuld be much more tanky, as well Gimli and Murin/Eomer get some abilities to be at his lvl. Increase the usefullness of Mass slayers would be a good way to encourage players to use them.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 6. Mai 2016, 13:17

Zitat

I think people is worried about how good is him as mass slayer and comparing him with other mass slayers ( Saruman, gandalf, Gimli..) and supposed ones ( Murin, Eomer..) he is way better than them and also has a secondary role as heroslayer thx to his great dmg with low health. I think Wizards shopuld be much more tanky, as well Gimli and Murin/Eomer get some abilities to be at his lvl. Increase the usefullness of Mass slayers would be a good way to encourage players to use them.

+1 to you, good sir.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 6. Mai 2016, 13:49

Zitat von: Draco100000 am  5. Mai 2016, 18:08

I think people is worried about how good is him as mass slayer and comparing him with other mass slayers ( Saruman, gandalf, Gimli..) and supposed ones ( Murin, Eomer..) he is way better than them and also has a secondary role as heroslayer thx to his great dmg with low health. I think Wizards shopuld be much more tanky, as well Gimli and Murin/Eomer get some abilities to be at his lvl. Increase the usefullness of Mass slayers would be a good way to encourage players to use them.

The problem is if we buff Mass Slayers armor, then they will pretty much become better Tanks.  Zafragor is incredibly overpowered right now because he can fulfill the Role of Tank, Mass Slayer, and Hero Killer at the same time.  There is a serious problem when Zafragor can beat out pretty much any other hero, as well as take forever to kill, even when Hero Killers are attacking him.

And people use pretty much all of these heroes.  Gimli, Murin, Dwalin, Zafragor, and too a lesser extent Legolas, Eomer, and Saruman are usually bought by most players.  The only ones I rarely see are Gandalf and Mollock, and this is because these 2 are such a big risk to lose that people don't bother.  I didn't include Saruman because at least he has his Wizard's Tower.  And both Mollock and Gandalf have had plenty of feedback on how they can be more worth the risk you take to get them.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 6. Mai 2016, 16:42

Yes, the problem rests sole on the shoulders of Zaphragor and the way he is set up. Honestly, considering how huge the hero roster of Angmar already is, it may be a good idea to just remove him. (BURN THE HERETIC FOR SUGGESTING WE REMOVE ANGMARS COOLEST HERO!) Wait! Think about it, Angmar already has 2 great hero killers, Durmarth and Karsh, a great tank, Karsh/Witch King, and 2 great mass slayers, Helegwen and Witch King. Most of their heroes also have overlapping roles. I think rather than nerfing Zaphragor into oblivion it may just be better and more efficient to remove him.

I think the only way to properly fix the problems centered around Zaphragor while keeping him in the game would be to either completely overhaul his entire ability set, or to make him an optional "leader" type hero, alongside the Witch King. So, you can either make him or the Witch King, but not have both on the field at the same time. This would solve the problem of him (significantly) overshadowing the Witch King as an all round better hero.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: -DJANGO- am 6. Mai 2016, 16:48

Agree with Haman. I dont see any reason to buff the Armor of Mass Slayer Heros.
Gandalf and Saruman have once lvled slightly up with their first magic attacks they have a good amor. It is really not difficult to lvl them up to 10.
Regarding Zaphragor: In the following im gone make me a lot of enemies and im already sry for the people who out their work&time in this hero, but its my opinion. Zaphragor is the Hero i hate the most in Edain. Yes his mechanism is cool but thats the only think i like of him. His Position, Role and Design dont fit into the Tolkien-Angmar. With his abilities he outshines the Witchking enormously. Say so: Zaphragor is the Gandalf of Angmar. The attack mechanism of his first ability is also different than the magic blasts of the Saruma&Gandalf. It deals damage to the hole surrounding of the hero, not only infront of him. That makes the attack better than magic blasts, its like a small "word of power" :P.
Now like Haman said his nice mechanism to get stronger melee when dying puts him into more Hero positions than just a mass slayer. That double role of Angmar Heros, not only Zaphragor, is a serious problem in my eyes.
Last but not least the cooldowns of his abilities are a joke.

My opinion is to cancel this hero, Angmar does not need a mass slayer Hero like Zaphragor, they already got the Witchking with Mass-Slayer Attack Moves, they got wraiths, they got Werewolves, they got Witchers
Instead: rework the Witchking of Angmar and give him an extraordinary Role in his faction: Keep his Mass-Slayer Attack Moves, give him some outstanding lvl. 10 Ability: Should not necessarily be the "Word of Power of Angmar" from Zaphragor. Maybe something "Tolkienish": Remember maybe the at the battle of Fornost, the scene with Earnur and his horse. Yes Glorfindel banished him, but what about an ability with special effects against Mankind? That would emphasize the history of both factions, especially summoned in such an important figure.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 6. Mai 2016, 16:59

Zitat von: Elite KryPtik am  6. Mai 2016, 16:42

Yes, the problem rests sole on the shoulders of Zaphragor and the way he is set up. Honestly, considering how huge the hero roster of Angmar already is, it may be a good idea to just remove him. (BURN THE HERETIC FOR SUGGESTING WE REMOVE ANGMARS COOLEST HERO!) Wait! Think about it, Angmar already has 2 great hero killers, Durmarth and Karsh, a great tank, Karsh/Witch King, and 2 great mass slayers, Helegwen and Witch King. Most of their heroes also have overlapping roles. I think rather than nerfing Zaphragor into oblivion it may just be better and more efficient to remove him.

I think the only way to properly fix the problems centered around Zaphragor while keeping him in the game would be to either completely overhaul his entire ability set, or to make him an optional "leader" type hero, alongside the Witch King. So, you can either make him or the Witch King, but not have both on the field at the same time. This would solve the problem of him (significantly) overshadowing the Witch King as an all round better hero.

Or his armor could just be lowered to that of normal heroes.....

That is really all that needs to happen because his Damage Output is fine, at least in my opinion.  The reason why he is also a great Hero Killer and Tank right now is because of his armor.  His abilities also might need to be a bit longer.

@-DJANGO-: I think that balancing him before we say that he needs to be removed would be a better idea.  With the Lower Armor and Increased Cooldowns, I think that he will be a lot more fair of a Hero, as well as give more purpose for the Witch-King.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 6. Mai 2016, 17:02

As pointed out before, Zaphragor is seeing some substantial nerfs in the next version. LoM said it like ten posts above this one, but still, just putting it out there in case someone forgot already :P
So yeah, what Haman said. Wait for his nerf and then come back to this^^

Zitat von: Elite KryPtik am  6. Mai 2016, 16:42

Think about it, Angmar already has 2 great hero killers, Durmarth and Karsh[...]

Wait, wut? Karsh a great hero killer? Are we still talking about the current Edain version?

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 6. Mai 2016, 17:05

His Life Steal makes him able to 1v1 a LOT of heroes, even if he doesn't necessarily have the best hero killer moveset. He doubles as a hero killer, his main I think is a unit debuffer.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 6. Mai 2016, 17:08

Zitat von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am  6. Mai 2016, 17:02

Zitat von: Elite KryPtik am  6. Mai 2016, 16:42

Think about it, Angmar already has 2 great hero killers, Durmarth and Karsh[...]

Wait, wut? Karsh a great hero killer? Are we still talking about the current Edain version?

Well if you want to be picky, Karsh's Life Steal does generally make him out last heroes that aren't Hero Killers..... So if you want to count that  xD

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 6. Mai 2016, 17:43

He's a tank/wraith-supporter mostly. With his high HP and lifesteal he might be able to outlast other heroes but it still takes him foreeever to do so unlike Gorthaur/Aragorn, who are truly great hero killers... but hey, whatever floats your boat I guess^^

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 6. Mai 2016, 19:29

When we are talking about buffing Mass Slayers, we aren't necessarily talking about buffing their armour. Either their health could be buffed, or their offensive power. Most Mass Slayers lose a lot of power and momentum once armies start being upgraded. The way I see it is that Mass Slayers should be weak to sub-heroes and heroes only. Mass Slayers cost a fortune and a good amount of games will have already ended before you even see these expensive heroes, unless you are talking about 2v2 and up. The point still remains, most of these Mass Slayers still lose against cavalry and trolls, werewolves, even though they count as units, and not heroes. While I understand that a counter is important, I think it is very hard to justify that a single battalion of Axe Rohirrim (400) can absolutely molest Saruman (3000) if you even make a single mistake.
Mass Slayers should always be lategame heroes imo, and their effectiveness against upgraded blobs needs to be increased. Mostly their abilities are fine, they just lack in strength. A Word of Power can only one shot kill default orcs if I am not mistaken. It only takes a sliver of health of upgraded units like Tower Guards and Men of Carn-Dûm, which I find strange. Maybe there is a way to grant magic abilities bonus damage modifiers against heavily armoured foes and such.

We should of course not go the one shot-one kill route, but currently these abilities are too weak in their mass slaying capabilities, and I would love to see some buffs across the board, just like with Eomer's spear throw, just straight buffs.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 6. Mai 2016, 22:25

I just said to buff the mass slayers because right now i find their role in general useless. They are good vs mordor and just that. Dwarves, elves and other factions hace much better troops with better armour and dmg. I think the armour of mass slayers should be increased vs troops while being the same or lowered vs heros, fiting much more at their role.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Vodohaka am 6. Mai 2016, 22:44

I agree with you on the topic of buffing mass slayers. I can understand that the Edain team is cautious with a buff because they might be too strong against not upgraded troops. But they really need a higher damage output in the lategadme. Especially against the means of upgraded tower guards and so on.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Skeeverboy am 6. Mai 2016, 22:53

At the moment heroes who do "Magic" damage have a bug, that their "Magic" damage won't be higher when they level up. If I'm not wrong, it will be fixed next version so they would be stronger against upgradet units.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 6. Mai 2016, 23:03

@Skeever
That sounds really good. I suppose we derailed the topic a bit, but yes, I look forward to that.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 10. Mai 2016, 16:49

Could you change the Orcs of Mount Gram summon so that they can NOT be summoned right on top of enemy units, just like every other summon in the game? Last game I lost three troops of upgraded Lorien Archers because of that ; they were stuck in the middle of Orcs without any way out.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 10. Mai 2016, 16:55

Zitat von: Adrigabbro am 10. Mai 2016, 16:49

Could you change the Orcs of Mount Gram summon so that they can NOT be summoned right on top of enemy units, just like every other summon in the game? Last game I lost three troops of upgraded Lorien Archers because of that ; they were stuck in the middle of Orcs without any way out.

+1

Though I think the Summon Area should be smaller then it is now.  It is pretty big for a Tier 2 Spell Book Summon.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 10. Mai 2016, 17:04

Zitat

Could you change the Orcs of Mount Gram summon so that they can NOT be summoned right on top of enemy units, just like every other summon in the game? Last game I lost three troops of upgraded Lorien Archers because of that ; they were stuck in the middle of Orcs without any way out.

So much this. Also, please do it for the Troll Summon as well.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 16. Mai 2016, 16:01

Think it's time we discuss something that really hasn't been talked about much: Wights

These guys are incredibly effective for their price.  Once the Wight building gets to level 5, these things become beasts.  But here is my main problem with them.  Their melee armor is very high, and along with their life steal, they can deal a lot of damage and take a lot of punishment before dieing. Their main counters are Heroes and Archers, but like how Beornings were in the early stages of Lothlorien, for a price of 350, they can massively overperform against certain factions (Mordor), and can also be discounted.  And the things that do counter Wights can be ripped to shreds by Werewolves. 

Because of the new amount of experience that is required to get a level 3 Recruitment building, Men of Carn Dum are seem to be much less useful.  The reason for this is if you go for Men of Carn Dum, buying a Dark Iron Forge is necessary, while going for Just wights and Werewolves requires a lot less tribute Carts.  And because of how hard it is too kill wights, against certain factions, you only need Wights and Werewolves.     

So I would suggest  both Werewolves and Wights cost 100 more each, and the Armor value of Wights go down.  In my opinion, Wights should be used within your army or Thralls/Men of Carn Dum, more similarly to Isengard Berserkers, and not as your Front line by themselves. 

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 16. Mai 2016, 19:10

Definitely agree, but with some different points.

I will be posting a video to YouTube tomorrow, I will link back to it here when its up. In this video, after one of our teammates crashes me and my other teammate hold off in a 3v2 for almost an hour just by pure virtue of my wight army. Its literally like a tide of death, I clean out 3 bases and destroy multiple huge armies with just my wights alone. They SERIOUSLY need to be looked at. My personal suggestion is a cost increase from 350 to 500 default, and then the discount can be applied from there. Additionally, I think the Wight Lair should take a lot longer to level up than it currently does, a single engagement can take a wight lair from 1 to 3. Finally, I think they should also have a bit of a health nerf, right now they are very tanky just on their own without taking the lifesteal into account.

Regarding werewolves, I think they perform excellently in terms of overall power, but I think they are a bit cheap as well. They only cost 630 if you go for their full discount. So I would argue to increase their price a bit, maybe to something like 800 with the full discount. That's just enough to prevent them from being super spammable, while keeping them a really useful unit.

Finally, we come to Men of Carn Dum. They are, as of now, COMPLETELY USELESS. Paying 500 for elite units that have a hard time against even basic swordsmen, and 600 for pikes and archers, is completely untenable and impossible to maintain, even late game. You also need to upgrade them before they reach their full potential, in addition to their incredible price. I understand the idea is to have them beat elite units of other factions with similar costs, but if your enemy goes for Men of Carn Dum all you have to do is spam your most basic unit and shred them. This is especially true with Isengard and the HUGE discount they can get on their heavy uruks. I think the pikes and swords each need a flat discount of 100 each, and Mornamarth should get his discount for the Men of Carn Dum at level 2. I guarantee that right now, with all the changes he has gotten, he is a super low priority hero for people, but if you change his ability to unlock easier he will become useful again.

Finally, a last point I just came up with. I don't understand why you increased the cost of the basic outpost to 1600. I think that's really unfair, every other factions outpost equivalent costs 1200. I think instead of increasing the cost of the basic outpost, you should increase the cost of the upgrades for it, Garrison Tower and Tower of Sorcery. Taking Garrison Tower from 500 to 1k would be fine in my opinion, and similarly for Tower of Sorcery(I never use sorcerers so I don't know the price :P) The 1600 cost can really hurt Angmar in terms of claiming an outpost quickly, where other factions have access to it for much cheaper. Hell, even the freaking dwarves basic outpost, with its incredible defenses, only costs 1200. I think that this should be reconsidered, I don't understand why it was even changed in the first place.
Thanks for reading :)

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 16. Mai 2016, 19:25

+1 for the outpost thing.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Skeeverboy am 16. Mai 2016, 19:32

Zitat

I don't understand why you increased the cost of the basic outpost to 1600.

This change was because the outpost spawns instantly a tribute cart, which gives 500 ressources and has the leveling strength of two normal carts.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 16. Mai 2016, 19:40

Still, you now have to save more money than other factions to get an outpost and I agree with Kryptik, this is a bit unfair. His proposal is a very good alternative in my opinion.

Other than that, I think you are over reacting. I have tried Wights once back in 4.3.1 and I felt more like they were a waste of money compared to Angmar's other alternatives such as werewolves (who are indeed quite strong, I pointed it out on this very topic). But perhaps it was because I was mainly facing Rohan's hero rush and Wights have bad time against heroes.
Concerning Men of Carn Dum, they sure got nerfed but I don't think they are that useless. Time will tell.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 16. Mai 2016, 19:44

Wanna 1v1 me, Angmar vs Mordor? I can show you firsthand how good wights are and how useless men of carn dum are.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 16. Mai 2016, 19:45

@Elite
I don't understand why suddenly Men of Carn-Dum are useless. Nothing was changed about them. They are identical to the previous versions. Only the Pikemen reflect damage on less sources with their passive and Mornamarth's price reduction has been lowered. So not sure what you are saying.

I would be okay with a small 100 cost increase for Wights, similar to Beornings and decrease their armour and health by a tiny bit, like 5-10%. I would also agree that the Barrow Wight Lair could take more time to level. To compensate, Karsh could have a passive leadership at level 6-7 for Wights that increases armour again, and perhaps the rate at which the barrow wight lair levels and that barrow wight lairs share levels, instead of barrow wights themselves near a Karsh summoned tunnel. Just some thoughts on the subject. Price increase for Werewolves should be pretty fair too I guess.

Skeeverboy makes a fair point though. Agree to that. I don't really mind if the Outpost would cost 1200, and the upgrades for it would be more epxensive. It almost amounts to the same thing anyway.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Vodohaka am 16. Mai 2016, 19:46

Zitat von: Elite KryPtik am 16. Mai 2016, 19:10

Definitely agree, but with some different points.

Finally, we come to Men of Carn Dum. They are, as of now, COMPLETELY USELESS. Paying 500 for elite units that have a hard time against even basic swordsmen, and 600 for pikes and archers, is completely untenable and impossible to maintain, even late game. You also need to upgrade them before they reach their full potential, in addition to their incredible price. I understand the idea is to have them beat elite units of other factions with similar costs, but if your enemy goes for Men of Carn Dum all you have to do is spam your most basic unit and shred them. This is especially true with Isengard and the HUGE discount they can get on their heavy uruks. I think the pikes and swords each need a flat discount of 100 each, and Mornamarth should get his discount for the Men of Carn Dum at level 2. I guarantee that right now, with all the changes he has gotten, he is a super low priority hero for people, but if you change his ability to unlock easier he will become useful again.

Finally, a last point I just came up with. I don't understand why you increased the cost of the basic outpost to 1600. I think that's really unfair, every other factions outpost equivalent costs 1200. I think instead of increasing the cost of the basic outpost, you should increase the cost of the upgrades for it, Garrison Tower and Tower of Sorcery. Taking Garrison Tower from 500 to 1k would be fine in my opinion, and similarly for Tower of Sorcery(I never use sorcerers so I don't know the price :P) The 1600 cost can really hurt Angmar in terms of claiming an outpost quickly, where other factions have access to it for much cheaper. Hell, even the freaking dwarves basic outpost, with its incredible defenses, only costs 1200. I think that this should be reconsidered, I don't understand why it was even changed in the first place.
Thanks for reading :)

+1

I agree with Elite KryPtik that all standard outposts should cost 1200. If you want to weaken Angmars outposts you could do this by increasing the upgrade costs as suggested. I can understand that the cart spanning immediate is seen as a problem. Still Angmars outpost no longer produces ressources and the cart should be see as compensation for those resources.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 16. Mai 2016, 19:48

They are useless now because of how long it takes the barracks to level up, and because of how much more cost effective it is now to go for wolves immediately, due to wolf breeding being at level 1 on the pit. The problem is their cost, as I said, its impossible to build a reliable army of them now. The reason they were usable before is cus of the tribute cart bug, where people were getting a lot more money, and the other things that made Angmar OP. Now that they have been balanced properly, things that worked before aren't working enarly as well now. Even going full double resources on all of your inner resource buildings, you struggle to field an army of carn dum and keep them fielded, while also upgrading them. They are just too damn expensive.

In regards to the outpost, having the cart spawn for 500 would still be covered if you increased the costs of the outpost upgrades. Its really unfair for Angmar to have to save up an extra 400 just to get the outpost to begin with.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 16. Mai 2016, 20:10

I agree with leaving the Outpost at 1200.  Because Buildings require more cart to level up, and you need to pay for its upgrades, the price increase seems unnecessary.

Don't underestimate Wights.  In groups they can do some serious damage without taking many losses.  I don't think they should be able to last as long as they do by themselves.  Their melee armour is just too much.  They aren't uncounted able, but they are certainly over performing for their price.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 16. Mai 2016, 22:47

After playing some matches with Angmar  and against Angmar I only see 1 thing which is a bit annoying ( at least for me).

Well Orcs of Mount gram still being the best summon of tier 2 in the game. Just because the high stats that this orcs have. They are in health like Dwarven Warriors, which I think is not fair if we compare them to grishnak boys, Tauriel or Beorn. They can be dangerous but not suppose an entire armie by themselves. Mount gram orcs have enough numbers and resistance to be a real thread in early stages, I think their spell should cost 3 points and should spawn only 3 hordes instead 4. Or reduce their stats a bit....

I use them in early to just destroy the entire enemie armie, and if my enemie have heros much better, they have no scape. In late they are a great meat wall, way better than standard free orcs. Their dmg is not low at all, they destroy siege andf kill lot of enemie archers easily, and can even flank in later stages being able to kill upgraded troops.

About Werewolves, I think their cost should be increased from 900 to 1200 Just because they are hero killers, building destroyers and mass slayers at a time.
I dont know their cp cost but if it is no 120 cp it should be.

Great changes overall in Angmar, I find too much the increased price for the outpost and the nerf on Monamarth ( I have no reasons to buy him more than third hero killer in lategame behind Durmath and Zaphragor). But the nerf on rogash is a great move, he still being really dangerous but 1 trol less makes easier to run from him at least.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 16. Mai 2016, 23:02

I agree mostly with what Draco said.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 19. Mai 2016, 13:46

Zafragor's Raging Anger kills himself when at Full Health.  This makes Raging Anger not worth using at all unless you are under 25% health and need to blast everyone away to run away. 

I know Zafragor needed the Armor Nerf, but the amount of damage these Abilities deal to himself should be modified to compensate for this nerf.  Even Devastating Strike deals a lot of damage to himself, while Raging Anger, for fairly obvious reasons, deals way too much damage to himself now. 


     

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 19. Mai 2016, 15:03

I don't know if it is possible, but I thought it would be interesting to implement the following feature: Zaphragor cannot be killed by his own abilities, but always keeps 1hp if he were to die with sufficient hitpoints. If he does not have enough health, he cannot use his spells obviously. And perhaps reduce the health drainage a little bit for all his spells and we are good.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 19. Mai 2016, 15:13

Well I personally hope for the abilities to actually do the amount of damage to himself as it says In the ability descriptions, so 3500 health for Raging anger when above 50% health.

Though if Zafragor uses Fanaticism before Raging Anger just above 50% health, then he will still die, so I agree with Odysseus.  If he can stay above 1 HP when using abilities, that would be good.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 19. Mai 2016, 21:34

Yeah, I never agreed with a straight armor nerf for Zaph, even though I didn't pipe up about it. What he needed was more vulnerability to enemies, not less armor against his own abilities. Something should definitely be done about this, because as it stands now Zaph isn't really worth the money to get at all.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 19. Mai 2016, 22:45

Yeah his price in werewolves is much more worth right now ;D

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 20. Mai 2016, 02:40

@Kryptik
I think Zaphragor's mechanic was adjusted to that previous armour value.

Right now, only the required health to cast his spells needs to be fixed and properly tweaked. Also, as I said, if possible, make it so that he cannot die from casting his own spells as long as he meets the requirements to do so. That way, he can cast several spells before risking death and the opponent still has a chance to get exp from killing him when he is at 1 hp.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 20. Mai 2016, 12:37

I don't like the idea of him staying at 1 hp at all times. When he's just above 50% health and casts his last ability while under fanatism, he should die. It's so powerful you can kill an entire army with it, so he should pay the price for that. Just don't activate fanatism before casting his lvl 10 ability (or sacrifice him if you think it's worth it)... you can still use the ability in normal mode to devastating effect.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 20. Mai 2016, 13:39

I see your point of view Elendils Cousin 3. Grades.  The problem is right now that even at full health and without Fanaticism, Zafragor still dies from Raging Anger.  Hopefully if they change it to where the abilities do the amount of Damage to Zafragor they say they do, we will not have this problem.

Just a quick update though, Zafragor CAN survive using Raging Anger at full health IF he is put into Defensive Stance.  However, he will become very close to death, so proceed with caution before doing this.

But the real most effective strategy for Raging Anger right now it pairing it with Durmarth's Oath of the Guardsmen.  The Armor Boost from that Makes Zafragor not take much damage at all from the ability, even with Fanaticism active and in Aggressive Stance.  So this ability has more use then I initially thought..... Assuming you have a Durmarth.  Makes me wonder how Brokenly Overpowered using Oath of the Guardsmen on Zafragor was before he got nerfed.   [uglybunti] [uglybunti] [uglybunti] 

I think the real problem here is this:  Zafragor's abilities Self Damage is Affected by Armor.  Is there anyway that this can do fixed damage to himself, so say Raging Anger will always do 3500 damage to himself above 50% health, regardless of how much Armor he has?  Because now we have the problem that if we do lower the Amount of Damage he does to himself, combined with Durmarth, his self damaging abilities won't do pretty much anything to him.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 20. Mai 2016, 13:59

I like that combo actually, it's pretty neat. I wouldn't remove that^^
Zaphragor dying without Fanaticism active is a bug, but you posted that already, right? That should get fixed then.

I don't know if damage can be uneffected by armor, but hey, that's not my job anyway xD

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 18. Aug 2016, 20:52

I found something interesting. I want you to pay particular attention to the second round of the video and tell me what you see that you might find surprising: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNMs7cVmDJg

It's obviously a bug, but I'd post it here first in case it was not. Hope it will be fixed for the next patch.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Skeeverboy am 18. Aug 2016, 23:31

Personally I won't see it as a bug, it's more like a strong attack if a hero meets her allone :D
It's like Gandalfs flashsword (his second ability). If a hero walks allone and Gandalf use it, he will get the full damage of the ability too.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Darkayah am 18. Aug 2016, 23:38

I agree with Skeeverboy.
It's the same way like Gandalfs ability.
The shoot is against more enemies, but if is only one enemy close to her, the enemy gets the full damage of the ability. ^^
It isn't a bug so.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 19. Aug 2016, 01:10

Except Gandalf costs 3000, comes late, gets that ability at level 2-3 and Lightning Sword is not instantaneous, and gives time to your opponent to get away, no?

Helewen costs 1400, gets the ability by default and it can almost one shot a hero. If it's not a bug, then how exactly is it healthy for gameplay?

In case I haven't made my point clear, I enjoy powerful abilities, but I dislike abilities that remove 90% of a hero's health bar, no matter what exactly there may be to counter balance such a feat. Even more so if you consider that Helegwen has no hero killer aspects or roles. I would just reduce its damage to heroes, because it reminds me too much of Legolas' old Hawk Strike, where you could say bye-bye to your hero :P.

For the record, I am not frustrated (which it may seem like when I read back my general tone in the post), but I am just really baffled such damage is in an early to midgame hero with a point click ability.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Darkayah am 19. Aug 2016, 02:34

 In your Video Helegwen dies in every fight against Legolas. So what ist the problem?
And every arrow in the shot does damage. If you go in an one vs one against her it is your fault... i can't see a problem. ^^

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 19. Aug 2016, 03:22

I must agree with Skeever and Darkness here, landing every arrow in the ability on a single hero is going to be impossible in a real game, as the hero will be surrounded by troops as well. I did notice that her arrow rain seems to also freeze heroes, which seems kind of silly to me, but otherwise I have no issue with any of her abilities.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: calixoxx am 12. Jan 2017, 03:46

I think Angmar has as many freezes/slowdowns as Lorien has stuns. It's a little crazy. The only suggestion I would have is to debuff Helegwen. Either her freeze arrow ability needs a longer recharge, it needs a higher level, OR it needs a shorter active time. I also wouldn't mind seeing a smaller range. I do believe her ability to freeze so easily is a little crazy. Something should be done about it. It's not quite as a nuisance as Haldir's arrow but pretty close imo.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 12. Jan 2017, 21:04

Agreed, Helegwen's Freezing Arrow and Haldir's Golden Arrow are a bit too strong, but I will just say wait until the next version ;)

Titel: Discussing Mornamarth's Cruel Assault Ability
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 17. Jan 2018, 13:27

What are everyone's thoughts on Mornamarth's Cruel Assault ability? I feel that death of all the targeted units is too much of a penalty even for such a boost. The only possible uses I could see of it is during team games when you are holding back two players alone.  This ability will only be used when death of all the troops is the only possible outcome since it can only serve as a way to prolong the battle. Perhaps during base rushing too but it's a risky move and base rushing is uncommong by the time you have a LV10 Mornamarth.

Possible changes would include, dealing a certain amount of damage to all units, such as half their health 2/3rds their health, ect... Or hindering them with a terrible permanent/temporary debuff. A temporary debuff would reduce all their stats by a huge number while a permanent buff would target more the ability of the unit to be effective, perhaps reducing their attack, attack speed and movement speed.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 17. Jan 2018, 13:34

I think something like that temporary debuff could work: having triple strength for thirty seconds but having really hampered stats for the next minute, maybe? (don't know exactly what I would debuff)

Edit: Maybe the exact same things that are buffed could be the debuff for the next minute, apart from a loss in health, to reflect their exhaustion after putting such strength in the attack?

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Edhelharn am 16. Feb 2020, 16:29

With the release of 4.5 Lothlorien's forge has both weapon upgrades and economy upgrades. The forge also still produces resources itself and as such is able to be targeted by Angmar's Blight spellbook power.

In 4.4.1 this power could be used effectively against Lorien in many ways due to all their inner buildings producing resources. Because of this, I feel that it could be mitigated somewhat considering each building in general focused on a single tech.

However, now that the forge has both upgrades and needs a costly eco upgrade before accessing weapon upgrades i feel the power becomes too effective against Lorien (and makes the forge the obvious go-to to target).

At this point I'm more speculating as I haven't played the match up enough to know for certain the outcome of the power. It would be nice to know what other people think about this as well.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 16. Feb 2020, 18:47

Agreed, the Blight shouldn't be able to target Lorien's forge.

Titel: Re: Balancediskussion Angmar
Beitrag von: Archaon the Ever-Salty am 19. Feb 2020, 09:58

in my opinion the eco of angmar with the current inflation is a bit OP comparatively to everyone else when they get map control and the reason for this is tribute carts

income values on tribute carts needs to be altered a bit i think
for starters i think a outpost paying 2/3rds of its price in tribute instantly then again every 3 minutes is silly
its cart is worth 800
well 800 to 1015
depends if you send the cart to a fully teched hall of men or to a building not fully leveled
and yes sending tribute carts to halls of men makes more money then sending it anywhere else
i don't know why its just how it is
creeping a troll getting the loot and building the outpost literally pays for the outpost and you get 100 resources on top of that, not to mention being able to make instant men of carn dum

because of how the tribute system works angmar snowballs super hard when they gain map control much like everyone did back a patch ago. this patch made their outside plots make the same as everyone else plus make tribute which is more free money, it was a huge boost to their eco. so i'm bringing this up so other people can help brainstorm ways to rework the tribute system to be less insane economically as currently angmar has a stronger eco than late game isengard.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/327177778497847296/679510292543045662/unknown.png

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 24. Feb 2020, 00:00

The outpost cart should be worth 500, which building did you use it on? Hall of the King's Men?

Reverting the buff to Angmar's economy seems the easiest course of action here, the income difference you reported is indeed way over the top.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Archaon the Ever-Salty am 24. Feb 2020, 02:01

tribute cart income is impacted by the structures production speed, so higher level structures make more from tribute carts. level 3 hall of the kings men making the most due to the most production speed, this is the only explanation i could come up for it...... its actually a localized version of the lorian eco bug nobody seemed to notice because it was only for tribute carts. i tested throwing carts into all structures for awhile and thats the only corrolation i could come up with. eco upgrades didn't impact it at all

Edit. looked into it a bit more and its the garrison tower on the outpost that makes it so the tribute carts make more money at the hall of the kings men. because of the +30% production speed boost https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/327177778497847296/681389238314598454/unknown.png?width=911&height=684

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: FG15 am 24. Feb 2020, 08:20

Thanks for the tests.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Big F am 26. Mär 2020, 00:58

This is the Angmar subsection of my gameplay & balance post over at the general balance discussion thread.

Karsh is too good for his cost at level 1 getting a life steal, a second life and a debuff at level 1 and starting with a lot of health.

Thrall masters are still way to bad against competent players. Especially scout heroes and even more so ranged scout heroes make them completely unviable.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Aiphaton am 3. Apr 2020, 20:22

Hi you all,

I've also got and idea on how to change thralls for the better without having to nerf towers or potential thrall-sniping by whatever units.

1. Spellbook: Imo and also the opinion of others the blight (tier 1) is too strong (especially in the EG of some matchups), while the thrall-buff-spell (tier 3) is bearly used in MP at all since there are way better strategies to go with and no one goes for so many thralls until the point of the game where you actually get enough spellpoints.
So my idea on that:
- a) Swap the spells, tier one works similar to rohan's draft now -> One thrall gets the upgrade and a small weaker hoard of units is summoned for a short time
- b) blight gets a rework where it's duration is decreased but it entirely disables the building it's used on for that amount of time, this works regardless of the building and would be a good tier 3 spell

2. Formations for thralls:
The main issue I'm having with those units is that the thralls position themselves as they want to. It can be micromanaged but most of the times this does no real good. On top of that retreating is often the death sentence of the thrall since he follows the batallion. So sniping a fleeing thrall batallion with archers, cav and even swords is a thing. I'd like to see different formations in order to protect the thrall.
- a) Usual stance (just like it is right now)
- b) Retreating stance (Thrall is in front of the batallion)
- c) Fighting stance (Thrall is surrounded by his batallion which protect him)

I think this would help thralls a lot and actually make it a unit which is also still an option to go for in mid- or even lategame (especially the sort of crappy thrallcav)

Let me know what you think!

Best regards,
Aiphaton

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Vin55 am 3. Apr 2020, 20:25

Those are some nice ideas, the question would be can you actually code this. But I would agree that those changes would be logical.

Mgf Vin55

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Halbarad am 3. Apr 2020, 21:30

1. I do really like the position of the thrall-buff-spell right now. It sure comes pretty late, but I'd rather liked to see it with 5 costs instead of 6 spellpoint costs. If I do understand you right, you wanna use a system like the Rohan horn. 
The thing about the spell that I love is that it gives the player a really good opportunity to also use his thrall-masters in lategame. Making it a front row spell would take this away, since it would then be pretty nasty/ micro intense to use it as an active spell. Like that, more players would probably just switch to Carn Dum units and the units would have to be less strong.

2. Would be nice. Could be combined with normal stance (aggressive, defensive and normal stance) so it would be less micro intense to use.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Smeargollum am 4. Apr 2020, 11:03

Hello together!
Even though I agree with you that Angmar thrall masters are a suboptimal eg units I am against making the thrall spell a tier one or tier two spell. The idea of the spell is to have thrall master as a viable option for the later game and not just an eg units you want to get rid of as quickly as possible.
And I also think that this spell can be used quite well even in the multiplayer because you get a lot of spam units which you can use perfectly as a meat shield for higher tech units of Angmar such as werewolves or sorcerers. That spell allows you to tech up for units which are not Carn Dum units and with that bring a lot more interesting strategies to the game. So I really like that spell as it is now, except that it could cost a little less spell points.

The suggestion for special formations of the thrall masters is interesting for me but I fear that this is not possible as a reliable option with the engine. :o

Instead I would like to see other, hopefully easier, buffs for the thrall masters in the eg. That could be a higher armor against ranged heroes as it is very strong at the moment to just right click a thrall master with your Gildor and the whole battalion just dies. If I remember correctly someone (I don’t remember who it was) suggested in the German forum part to make the tackiness of the thrall master relative to the size of the battalion. So when the thrall batt is still full the thrall master tanks a lot but when there are only two guys left in the battalion he dies as quickly as now. But I don’t know if that is possible to code. But if it is possible, I would really like that.

Best regards
Smeargollum

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 2. Jul 2020, 23:23

Now that the Angmar outposts only cost 800, the tribute cart it spawns on construction refunds a much greater portion of its cost and doesn't require protecting the outpost at all. My suggestion is that the outpost function the same way as the other cart spawning buildings, only spawning a cart after 3 minutes instead of on the completion.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Halbarad am 3. Jul 2020, 01:19

Sounds reasonable, either that or it should give less money. That way the outpost would still be able to give you Carn Dûm units.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Seleukos I. am 5. Jul 2020, 18:02

I agree with Necro, rushing an Angmar outpost is too strong and cheap atm. Delaying the spawning of the cart sounds like a good solution.

---

Another thing I wanted to talk about is Zaphragor :D
I like the change and indirect nerf he got with 4.5.3, but I still think he is too strong for his price.
Zaphragor, as we all know, combines aspects of a mass-slayer and a herokiller (and maybe even a tank). His level 1 and level 10 abilities both are very strong, about as strong as Gandalfs level 1 and level 10.
However, Zaphragor's level 10 ability does not only blow up an entire army, it also stuns enemy heroes. This means that Zaphragor most of the time is able to escape despite his low hp after using the ability.
On top of that he is a strong melee fighter. His mean he doesn't have the main weakness of Gandalf or Saruman: He can't be taken down by enemy heroes/units as easily.
And on top of that he heals way faster than any other hero. The idea behind this is, I guess, to compensate for him loosing hp when using his abilities. However, expet for his level 10 ability non of his powers really take away a lot of hp, so his makes him a lot stronger as well.

To nerf Zaphragor I'd suggest the following:
1) Remove the hero-stun from this level 10 power
2) Lower his healing rate to a normal one

This changes shouldn't overnerf him (I hope^^), but still make him a bit less powerfull.
He isn't supposed to be Angmar's "main hero" after all, that's still the WK.

Best regardes,
Selukos

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Halbarad am 5. Jul 2020, 22:53

Don't know how strong 1) is but suggestion 2) sounds good to me. With less healing rate the player would have to choose much more carefully when to use them so it would probably more interesting. While changing that it could be interesting if he would profit stronger from Well of Souls than other units. That could highlight his connection with the Sourcerers of Angmar and would make them more useful next to all of Angmars mass slaying heroes.

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Seleukos I. am 6. Jul 2020, 12:27

The problem with the hero-stun is, that Zaphragor can - after using his level 10 ability - use his super high melee damage to more or less two shot frozen enemy heroes. Also he can escape easily even if there is an Eowyn for example: You can't punish and kill a low hp Zapgragor with your hero killer, because they are frozen.

Since sourcerers aren't used that often atm I like the idea of giving them some kind of special interaction with Zaphragor.

Best regardes,
Seleukos

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Halbarad am 6. Jul 2020, 15:37

ok then it seems like nothing has changed since I used Zaphragors Level 10 ability the last time against heroes (which was probably in 4.4.1), back then it was also being used to kill the enemy heroes with low health Zaphragor, not only for running away.
 
Another reason to change this is that I think it would feel better/ more logical if it would just freeze or throwing away: It could be some kind of frost wave that freezes everything or it could be some shock wave that throws everything surrounding Zaphragor away, but doing one thing to units and the other thing to heroes doesn't feel consistent to me. So I think the best solutions, also to keep balance in mind, are:

1) Units get thrown away (as they are now) while heroes
    - a) get thrown away too
    - b) get slowed down
    - c) aren't affected (only get damage)
2) Units get frozen while heroes
    - a) get frozen too (in terms of balance much shorter than right now, so just about 1 or 2 seconds)
    - b) get slowed down
    - c) only get damage

Since Zaphragor doesn't really care about his own life and isn't that much of a team player allied Angmar units next to him could be thrown away or slowed down too when using his ability. You suggested 1c, I personally think 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b could be more interesting. Not affecting heroes at all seems a bit too much to me, I think Gandalf Level 10 does throw away heroes two while Zaphragor is really able to die when using his level 10 ability because of him losing life, so I would give him a bit of a chance when using the ability at the front when the enemy got 5 heroes near to him (who would hit him while he is using the ability).

Titel: Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
Beitrag von: Seleukos I. am 6. Jul 2020, 16:01

I think it would make sense to use 1a, if Gandalf's WoP is doing the same.
Freezing everything would be cool as well (literally :D ), but I fear it could lead a gamecrash when you freeze like 1500 (or even more) CP and maybe use some other FX heavy abilities^^

Either way, I think using the same effect for units and heroes sounds reasonable.

Throwing down your own units as well would be kinda ... starnge. I mean, this ability would be the only one that would do that, so it would be somewhat inconsistent. Also it would make the ability quite a bit weaker.

Best regardes,
Seleukos