Modding Union

[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Angmar Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: Chiska am 6. Jun 2016, 16:51

Titel: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Chiska am 6. Jun 2016, 16:51
Currently the Witch-King is the ring hero for the angmar faction, but lore-wise I don't think it is very accurate. According to The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien :

Zitat
"...laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills . . ." — The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 246

Sauron holds complete dominance over each and every Nazgûl (including the Witch-King) and every action they carry out is ultimately the will of the Dark Lord himself. Therefore it is unpractical for the Witch-King to fall to the temptation of the One Ring as he doesn't really experience lust, desire and other human feelings. Also the Ring and Sauron are one, and technically speaking the Witch-King shares the mind of Sauron (sort of, not really but you get the idea) and for that reason the One would not try to tempt the Ringwraith because "it wants to get back to its master" and the easiest way to do that would to be just to allow the Witch-King to take it and return it to Barad-dûr. And even if the Witch-King somehow tried to take control of it Sauron would prevent it as he has complete control over him.
Also, Sauron doesn't seem to me like the type of guy who would allow his servant to use his beloved One Ring :p .

I realise that this has been a problem for quite a while in the Edain Mod, but the former issue was that there were no other Angmar heroes to really fit the description of being a ring hero and so they decided on the Witch-King.
But that was before the Edain Team gave us some of their custom heroes' background and lore.

In my opinion I think that a fallen dunédain general such as Mornamarth would gladly use the power of the Ring to his own benefit. You might be thinking...of all the Angmar Heroes, why Mornamarth?
The reason I have been contemplating this is because of a little something mentioned in his background story, given by the Edain Team:

Zitat
"The Witch-king knows well that while Mornamarth is a great asset, he is not truly loyal to anyone and is best kept on a short leash. For his part, Mornamarth burns to rule Angmar himself one day, "

This referance strongly supports my statement in the sense that if Mornamarth was given the opportunity, he would not hesitate to betray the Witch-King in order to become the new ruler of Angmar.

While the Witch-King is primarily a mass slayer hero, Mornamarth is more of a supportive hero and would make a rather fine supportive Ring Hero (such as Boromir, and Galadriel). He already has many abilities with a risk vs reward aspect, perhaps the risk could be lowered or/and the reward increased upon picking up the One Ring?

I haven't really thought about a improved skillset but I really think he is a strong candidate for a new Angmar Ring Hero.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 6. Jun 2016, 17:18
Not a bad suggestion.  However, making Mornamarth the Ring Hero doesn't remove all the contradictions.  I agree that the Witch-King would most likely bring the ring to Sauron like he is supposed to instead of use it for himself, which I think is what the case is ring now.  But the problem with Mornamarth (or anyone else on Angmar for the matter) is why would the Witch King allow them to use the Ring? I strongly doubt he would let allow them to use it instead of taking it to Sauron himself. 

So either way, there will be contradictions.  I don't think your suggestion is bad, and wouldn't mind seeing something like that actually happen.  Just because of How Angmar is set up, it doesn't really make total sense for anyone to really be the Ring-Hero.  The Witch King is the prime candidate though because he already posses unnatural power.

At least, that is how I see it  :P
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Chiska am 6. Jun 2016, 19:50
We could always assume that Mornamarth found the ring in secrecy,without the Witch-King's knowledge, and thus used it to overthrow his master and become the new ruler of Angmar. :D

Also I think it is more lore-friendly than the Witch-King being the Ring Hero :D.

But, as Haman said, there will always be contradictions in a game such as this, and ultimately theres only so much we can do about it.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 6. Jun 2016, 20:15
I made a point about this some time ago as well. I thought it would be interesting to give the ring hero mechanic to the outpost specific heroes, so Gulzar or Mornamarth. Now, I don't like Gulzar so I ultimately decided against it, but I think Mornamarth is a better suited candidate of the two, if we were to steer away from the WK.

Nonetheless, we don't have any official lore on all of the Angmar and ring stuff, so we'll have to refer to gameplay. And gameplay-wise, the Witch-King is the best candidate for that.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Darkayah am 6. Jun 2016, 20:34
hmmm...

Zitat
And gameplay-wise, the Witch-King is the best candidate for that.

I agree with Odysseus. The witch-king is the best candidate for a ringhero...
it is definitely an interesting idea, because i believe there are many possibilities for some 'ring-mechanic/systems', but i am not sure if it fit to that fraktion or 'main-system' of this fraktion...
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Canis carcharothias am 7. Jun 2016, 17:24
I think it would be more lore-friendly if we make the ring disappear from the game when the Witch-King takes it. After all, it's the purpose of the nine to take the One back to his master.

Of course, it should have some advantage for the Angmar player. When we play Mordor, the (deadliest) servants of sauron get more powerful as their master grows in strength. So, when the Witch-King takes the ring, it could have the same abilities as now as a ringhero, implying that the returning of the ring to the hands of Sauron has made not only Sauron more powerful, but also the nine, as they share a part of his evil power.

The only difference is that the Witch-King doesn't wear the ring, which is a blasphemy towards the almighty Sauron and that when the Witch-King dies, his powers disappear and the ring is not dropped. Something like a version of Galadriel rejecting the ring, but in an evil faction.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 7. Jun 2016, 17:32
I have no objections here. It is a good proposal imo.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 7. Jun 2016, 18:27
I think it would be more lore-friendly if we make the ring disappear from the game when the Witch-King takes it. After all, it's the purpose of the nine to take the One back to his master.

Of course, it should have some advantage for the Angmar player. When we play Mordor, the (deadliest) servants of sauron get more powerful as their master grows in strength. So, when the Witch-King takes the ring, it could have the same abilities as now as a ringhero, implying that the returning of the ring to the hands of Sauron has made not only Sauron more powerful, but also the nine, as they share a part of his evil power.

The only difference is that the Witch-King doesn't wear the ring, which is a blasphemy towards the almighty Sauron and that when the Witch-King dies, his powers disappear and the ring is not dropped. Something like a version of Galadriel rejecting the ring, but in an evil faction.

Agree with this. But I'd rather like its increased powers to stay if it's killed. It would be more balanced and rewarding for the Angmar player, IMO, and also more lore-wise (why should Sauron lose some of his powers if the Witch-king is killed, being also unable to restore them?)
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Canis carcharothias am 7. Jun 2016, 19:07
Agree with this. But I'd rather like its increased powers to stay if it's killed. It would be more balanced and rewarding for the Angmar player, IMO, and also more lore-wise (why should Sauron lose some of his powers if the Witch-king is killed, being also unable to restore them?)

You are right, buy I think that it's a thing of balance, if the Witch-King as ringhero is not too powerful, it would be nice to revive him with the power increase (and with a higher cost), but if he is too OP, maybe it would be imbalanced to have a ringhero permanently for the rest of the match. Does Galadriel maintains her powers when she dies after rejecting the ring? I've never seen what happens in that situation.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 10. Jul 2016, 10:09
I actually really like Chiska's original proposal, but it needs something to spice it up.

So as far as I can tell, Mornamarth only serves because he has plans to rule, and similarly Durmarth is an extremely deadly and powerful warrior in his own right. So actually, what if these 2 as well as the Witch King could ALL take the Ring, with differing effects?

Witch King: If the Witch King takes the One Ring, Sauron becomes recruitable at the Citadel in his Ring form, and the Witch King permanently gains the Ring buffs he had formerly. If Sauron dies he drops the Ring, and Witch King also dies and loses his powers.

I would also like to note that I absolutely hate the idea of the One Ring disappearing from the game, I have hated this feature of Lothlorien ever since they released and have tried to go against it. It is completely unfair for the other player, they have no chance of killing the Ring Hero and regaining it if Galadriel denies the Ring, and Galadriel permanently gains all those buffs and the ability to get Frodo and Sam, who are both powerful heroes in their own right.

Mornamarth: If Mornamarth gains the One Ring, he becomes the new ruler of Angmar. The Witch King dies and cannot be revived until Mornamarth loses the One Ring, and Mornamarth puts on the Witch Kings armor and weaponry to rule Angmar himself. He could have a 2 palantir system featuring enhanced versions of both his and the Witch Kings abilities.

Durmarth: If Durmarth gains the One Ring, he becomes an out of control unstoppable warrior, whom even the Witch King himself dare not raise his hand against. He could keep his two palantir system, except now 1 palantir could act as a mass slayer set of abilities, while the other focuses on hero killing, to highlight the fact that he has become such an unbelievably powerful warrior.

I think giving these options would be really fun and give Angmar a lot of diversity with their Ring Heroes just like they have a lot of diversity as the foundation of their faction(or, at least they would if Dire Wolves weren't so OP D:) I know this is an old topic, but lets discuss this further, I think it has a lot of merit and I should have gotten into it sooner.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Leri_weill am 10. Jul 2016, 13:59

I like your propositions Elite, and I'd add something. Mornamarth gaining the Ring should also reflect the internal struggle/civil war/etc that Angmar would face. I guess it has already been mentionned in the topic before, but I don't remember where. Maybe he could debuff friendly units or something like that ? I don't know if a system of heroes siding against or with him could be implemented, with bonuses and disavantages for each choice!
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 10. Jul 2016, 20:24
I really like the proposal although I don't think the that Durmath would take the ring. For Mornamarth I think some units (wights, werewolves) have to become unrecruitable since they are bound to the WK. It's also likely that the men of Carn Dum would mistreat the hillmen (because they believe themselves superior) and lead them to have weaker stats. In exchange the men of Carn dum would gain increased offensive stats, cheaper, faster recruitment but worse defensive stats since Mornamarth cares not for losses. I was also thinking instead of a dead WK instead he could metaphorically hunt Mornamarth (a timer) at the end of which Mornamarth would be brutally executed and the ring either lost or taken by the WK
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 11. Jul 2016, 01:27
I must say I really love the idea proposed by Elite Kryptic. It's brilliant, IMO. Having the Witch-king returning the Ring to his master, therefore allowing the player to recruit Sauron makes perfect sense (as for the passive effect, rather than thwarting the enemy production through snowstorm, I think that Werewolves, Direwolves and Wights should deal more damage. Why this? Well, because Sauron is back, of course)

But I absolutely love the idea of Mornamarth betraying and killing the Witch-king and using the One Ring by himself, wearing his armor, weapon and Iron Crown, and also gaining some of his skills (and as an active effect, all the Men of Carn Dum and Hillmen as well should deal more damage). And since with the incoming 4.4 patch the Ring can be picked up only by the Ringhero himself, this will give the player even an harder choice on who will take it first (the Witch-king or Mornamarth?)

I support this idea
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: FG15 am 11. Jul 2016, 01:33
Sauron won't become the Ring Hero of Angmar, because he is already the Ring Hero of Mordor.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Walküre am 11. Jul 2016, 02:59
And since with the incoming 4.4 patch the Ring can be picked up only by the Ringhero himself, this will give the player even an harder choice on who will take it first (the Witch-king or Mornamarth?).

The player would certainly be put in front of a decisive and quite difficult choice to make. I generally like this significant options though, for they really offer you multiple possibilities  :)

Sauron won't become the Ring Hero of Angmar, because he is already the Ring Hero of Mordor.

This logic is undoubtedly lapidary and justified, but, If I really were to express my sincere thoughts on the matter, I would say that I never really felt so much comfortable about the Witch King's Ring Hero concept. I really think it lacks a bit of that unique touch that makes the Edain Mod great. But this is obviously only an opinion of mine.

Elite's suggestions look indeed very interesting, and I'm sure they would have high chances to develop decently. I will probably give a much more detailed contribution to this debate in the days to come; I nonetheless believe that trying to find more conceptual alternatives about this subject could definitely be something beneficial for Angmar as a whole  ;)
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 11. Jul 2016, 03:26
Sauron won't become the Ring Hero of Angmar, because he is already the Ring Hero of Mordor.

I agree with this, if we're looking for uniqueness (which is one of the points which makes Edain awesome). But I think that the main feature which should be the prominent one should be the lore. The lore should be more important than uniqueness to me, and I think this is also the reason why you chose to not make Elrond use the Ring (developing an unique-system, of course, but before than anything keeping in mind the lore) and you chose to not give Azog his name, but only his title :)

True, Sauron is already the Ringhero of Mordor, but not giving him the Ring with Angmar in favor of the Witch-king would certainly be unique, but from the point of view of the lore, it would be completely nosense, imo (as it would be having Mornamarth as the only Ringhero of Angmar)

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that more than once, to not contradict lore, you chose to adopt some compromises (like what you did for the Misty Mountains heroes) or even ignore uniqueness (Rohan and Gondor have the same weather spell - and before Elbereth Gilthoniel was developed, Lorien had it, too - Also, Lorien and Gondor both have the Eagles Summon) :)
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: FG15 am 11. Jul 2016, 09:22
Sauron won't become the Ring Hero of Angmar, because he is already the Ring Hero of Mordor.
I agree with this, if we're looking for uniqueness (which is one of the points which makes Edain awesome). But I think that the main feature which should be the prominent one should be the lore. The lore should be more important than uniqueness to me, and I think this is also the reason why you chose to not make Elrond use the Ring.
Elrond's Ring system is different from all existing Ring systems, which a simple Sauron system wouldn't be.
Moreover, if one wanted to make the Ring system completly lore arrcurate, than Sauron wouldn't be just the Ring Hero of Mordor (and Angmar), but also a possible Ring Hero of Isengard (he even send a Nazgul to get the Ring, when the Hobbits were captured), of the Misty Mountains (they would either bring him the ring directly or be influenced enough by the ring), and even the Dwarves (Dain had the theoretical option to give the Ring to Sauron).
On the good side, Gandalf would have done nothing but giving the Ring to a Hobbit, when Theoden was healed Aragorn or Gandalf were near and would have given it to a Hobbit, Galadriel didn't take the ring herself, but given it to a Hobbit, and with Erebor Bilbo would be the Ring Hero.

The player would have Sauron with the evil factions and a Hobbit, who can become invisible with the good factions. Wouldn't that be lore wise and great?


The ring system is a "What if ..." scenario. And in the case of the Witchking it's the question, what if the Witchking of Angmar had gotten the ring, but Sauron would still be too weak to come and take it himself. So, someone needs to bring him the Ring and the Witchking wouldn't have trusted any of his servants enough to do that instead of him. But because the forces of the Witchking are under attack he can't leave imediantly and has to keep it for some time.

That's as lore wise as most other ring systems. Furhtermore, the Witchking has one of the coolest and most unique Ring systems at the moment.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 11. Jul 2016, 12:18
Dont forget that the Witch King is the central person of the faction and the whole basic concept refers to his power acquisition. It would be mechanically poor when the core figure of the faction is replaced at once by another hero, and thereby becomes unimportant. These are conceptual and game mechanical elements that must be adhered to. Therefore there will be no Sauron in Angmar.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 11. Jul 2016, 14:07
Fair enough, but I still think that giving the player some choices about their Ring Hero would be great, letting them give it to Mornamarth or Durmarth as an alternative in a what if scenario of if they got it before the Witch King and overthrew him. Diversity is one of the big selling points of Angmar, so having a diverse range of Ring Heroes would fit nicely I think.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Secret Keeper am 11. Jul 2016, 14:22
I agree with Elite. Sauron is unnecessary in Angmar. Forget about him, but Mornamarth scenario would by very insteresting.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: makis89 am 16. Jul 2016, 13:29
I also agree that Mornamarth would be an intresting option to give him the one Ring..don't forget that he desires power more than discipline (  Witch-king) so to take secretly the ring it is a very possible scenario
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: d0m0a am 17. Jul 2016, 13:05
Well, I can suggest something for the Witch King.

If he gets the Ring, why not turn him into something as the Thrall Masters? Come on, be the unit that control more units, but instead of be only basic units, why he don't call the other 8 Nazgul for protect him?

The Witch King has the Ring after all, and must be protected for avoid be lost again, so why not the 8 Nazgul joins him in a group for fight fo him? Clearly, the Witch King will be in charge, but the others will at least fight with him and ride with him if he mounts his horse. And, if he dies, so goodbye ring and goodbye Nazgul until he recovers the ring again.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 24. Jul 2016, 07:59
Well, I can suggest something for the Witch King.

If he gets the Ring, why not turn him into something as the Thrall Masters? Come on, be the unit that control more units, but instead of be only basic units, why he don't call the other 8 Nazgul for protect him?

The Witch King has the Ring after all, and must be protected for avoid be lost again, so why not the 8 Nazgul joins him in a group for fight fo him? Clearly, the Witch King will be in charge, but the others will at least fight with him and ride with him if he mounts his horse. And, if he dies, so goodbye ring and goodbye Nazgul until he recovers the ring again.
This idea is actually really cool. From a lorewise perspective the Nazgul main purpose are to find and guard the ring so the WK picks up the ring and Sauron allows him to use it to end whatever battle he is fighting in, and so the Nazgul protect him.
On a side note now the Dwarf Ring Heroes gain both buffs and abilities from the Ring, the WK is even more underwhelming. :(
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 24. Jul 2016, 19:38
Oh wow, actually, that is a very cool concept. The other Nazgûl come to his aid when picks up the ring. Like an evil counter part to the Fellowship of the Ring.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Darkayah am 24. Jul 2016, 19:51
No... I think ' the Companions ' should remain something special , and should not doubling.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 24. Jul 2016, 20:06
Opinions, they differ mate ;).
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: kmogon am 25. Jul 2016, 12:31
What about that concept of Mornamarth being a ring hero :
One reason that men of Car Dum join to the Witch King was to return old days when Arnor was rich kingdom and controled north of eriador . So in that case Mornamath would take a ring to restore Arnor - he would nominate himself as the high king of Arnor - he would rule hard hand and probably continue his boss's plan . Aditionally he would enslave hilmen and orcs to fight for his side  . Of course Witch King would try to take ring for his master but dunedains was the main force in his army. Other not as loialty heroes would probably stand for the strongest . To sum up the first nazgul would be surrounded by enemies ( Mornamath , Arnor , Imladris ) and has to escape until the ring corrupt new owner . With him all magic would also go away from angmar like wraths , werewolfs , mages and probably wolves too. New king would star spread his kingdom , probably some of fallen dunedains see in him hope and join. That mean dunedain units would be cheaper also There would be  place for new units ( which, I know, is hard to do, but maybe horsemen on werewolfs place  ) . Hillmen and orcs would be free ( the praise of ygrał master would stay ) - they wouldn't be partners - but slaves so they have to give all what they have ( that means tribute carts would come more often ) and their villages would be protected by men of car dum to better keeping control over them . Imstead of barrow wights on a settlement would be guard tower to better keep borders of new kingdom . There is questionable which heroes would stay with new ruler - krash of course would disappear with other wrights , some of them can be promoted ( like helegwen or zaphragor ) to recompesate disapearring others . On the end if king Mornamath would die Witch King would return with his anger - Monamath would be allow to return on barrow field .

Additionaly I hear some voices to include main enemy from battle in the north in angmar fraction - if Mornamath has his quotes why this guy wouldn't be his ring hero skin.



I mean : ygrał = thrall and Mornamath wouldn't be allow to return after die . Sorry for mistakes but it was too long text :-)
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 29. Jul 2016, 12:13
I do think there are some interesting aspects to the Witch-King summoning other Nazguls to his side. Mostly from the point of the Witch-King who needs to be defended as long as the Ring is not with his master.

In-game I would say that the Witch-King is turned into a hero battalion with 3-5 other Nazguls. Having all of them together sounds a bit too much in a faction that is not directly controlled by Sauron. We can imagine that Sauron still needs some Nazguls in particular places to do his evil work. This hero battalion would increase the Witch-King's role as a mass-slayer combined with an everlasting winter. If this hero battalion similar to the Fellowship doesn't work technically, it could also be the Mordor Nazgul heroic battalion summoned by his side or bought at the citadel.

Alternatively, the Witch-King is protected by his most loyal servants, i.e. the Fallen Dúnedain of Carn Dum. These are represented by the Black Guard, both on foot and mounted. These heroic battalions get a new ability that is unlocked when the Witch-King claims the Ring (I hope this is mechanically possible). As of now they have three abilities that I do not know the details of, but the first time I saw them I felt they were not very innovative compared to Castellans or Morgul Knights and all in the same line. This new ability could be a passive or active ability that increases defensive values of these units near the Witch-King or all heroes.

I hope this addition creates some more debate surrounding the Witch-King's Ring function.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Canis carcharothias am 29. Jul 2016, 12:46
The nazgul idea is not bad at all. Makes some sense and a good antagonism to the company of the ring. To make them a little different from Mordor's nazguls, they could be wearing the Hobbit films armor and wielding the film weapons (but not like ghosts). I don't like them, but I know that lots of players crave for that, and we have the witch king in shining armor, so it could work well aesthetically and give some opportunities for them to have some distinct abilities.

Just my two cents.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Secret Keeper am 29. Jul 2016, 16:14
How about that: after WK picks the ring, 8 remaining nazguls appear and form a circle around him. WK would not directly fight, until you kill atleast 1 nazgul ( so you can get closer to him). He, as a WITCH king and holder of the ring, would cast a powerfull spells as his "attack". If you get close to him, he would draw his famous mace( similar to denethor new system in 4.4). Nazguls would fight directly and he would fight indirectly, through spells.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 2. Jan 2017, 16:03
Furthering this proposal has been a wish of mine for quite a while now, I've already expressed my support to it but I was never able to expand it. Today, we change that. This project has a lot of my love because of how few Ring Heroes the forces of Evil have in comparison to the forces of Good, in addition it seems logical since Angmar is meant to oppose Arnor for it to have a secondary ring hero. And Mornamarth just feels perfect because of his backstory, which by the way if I could read German would have read entirely.

Zitat
For his part, Mornamarth burns to rule Angmar himself one day, but for now he bides his time and builds his power by destroying Angmar's enemies

I don't know for everybody else but that and the previous line just screams: POTENTIAL RING HERO! Like really really loudly, so here are my thoughts:

Mornamarth, King of Carn Dum
At last, the patience of Mornamarth is rewarded, he now wields the One Ring, the source of his master's power. A power he can now use at his leisure, and his first action is to break the leash that the Witch-King had kept him in all this time. Using the element of surprise, he casts down the rule of his master and takes the Iron Crown for himself. The Dark Dunedain, always seeking power, follow their new king as easily as they followed their previous master but the wights and werewolves who were tied to Angmar only by the Witch-King's magic regain their free will and flee (becoming unrecruitable). The Hillmen are more reluctant to follow the one they call usurper and who cares little for them in comparison to their previous master, they are less fear resistant, no longer provide a buff to the Dunedain and are permanently debuffed. The Dunedain are rewarded for their allegiance and are now trained with basic upgrades. Mornamarth gain reworked/boosted abilities fit for his rank as Lord of Angmar and perhaps some additional skin features. He is also instantly level 10.

Wielding the Ring
Wielding the Ring and betraying the Witch-King is not without risk and while Mornamarth has managed to cast down his master and send him back to Mordor it is only a matter of time before he returns. Mornamarth is on a timer and when it runs out the Witch-King will have returned and hunted him down (aka he dies), also if the Witch-King had been recruited previously he returns from the border of the map once the timer runs out with an army from Mordor to subdue him, at this point two different thing can happen, either the Witch-King arrives from the border of the map with a small elite detachment from Mordor, a couple trolls, some black uruks, upgraded Morgul Archers, maybe some Morgul knights or he spawn in front of his base and the army is merely a couple of slave units who protect the base. If he is not recruited when Mornamarth takes the Ring then instead he simply can no longer be recruited.

Betraying the Witch-King also means that the units that were under his controlled are now released and heroes that were loyal to him flee the fortress only to return when their master does the same, can no longer be recruited (in addition, units recruited will die and heroes will vanish for the time being):

Once the time runs out all stats will return to normal, except for Men of Carn Dum who will suffer a temporary debuff. Mornamarth can be recruited regularly once again but I feel there should be some downside, maybe he comes back half the level or decreased stats?

Abilities
Level 1: Lust for Dominion - Mornamarth has gained the power he has always sought, but a man like him can never be truly satisfied. He now hunger for more land and more people to rule, to extend his empire even further he stays behind the lines and powers up his troops channeling the power of the One Ring into his allies. However his ambition is a double edged sword, with his eye set on his prize he tends to neglect his troops, sometimes even harming them by channeling too much power into too few units.

Level 3: River of Blood and Iron - Mornamarth no longer wishes to endanger himself, his regular attacks (allowed by this passive) unleashes a single blade of blood from afar (red flood) who deal heavy damage and knockback nearby troops. If fought in melee he will use his weapons to destroy the enemy. If activated it will allow him to draw upon the nearby forces, interrupting Lust for Dominion for 15 seconds and unleashing a wave of blood in a direction, this will slow all unit/heroes it hits and reduce the production speed of buildings in addition to dealing damage

Level 5: Brand of the One - Mornamarth links the strength of a battalion to the One Ring feeding them more power, they gain more damage and nearby units gain additional armor. Mornamarth can also sacrifice them anytime to regain health, if Mornamarth dies all battalions bound to the One Ring will die.

Level 7: Edict of the King - The selected Hall of King's Men, in addition to faster and cheaper recruitment now gives basic upgrades (heavy armor and banner carrier) to the Men of Carn Dum. The discount now affects the heroic units.

Level 10: Overwhelming Siege - Similar effect to cruel assault (Allied units in target area gain triple damage, +25% movement speed and are invulnerable for 30 seconds.) In addition, all units gain knock back attacks, upon death deal fire damage to nearby units and cannot be knocked back(just in case invulnerability doesn't already cover that).

In summary, Mornamarth is now a stronger units supporter and in addition gains some minor mass slaying power. The variety of units is more restricted, taking away one of Angmar strength but the Men of Carn Dum can be trained in larger numbers faster and cheaper. Using the ring's power Mornamarth shapes Angmar into the elitist faction he see it as.

Latest Changes (Important to Read)
-Heroes and Units recruitment will no longer be restricted.
-Ring Hero Witch King gains additional abilities debuffing abilities:
-Additional active abilities should be given to WK
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 2. Jan 2017, 19:16
Necro's idea sounds really good for adding a new Ring Hero to Angmar. However, there must be some element of choice in this and, right now, Ring Hero Witch King barely changes from his normal form. The only effect of the change is that enemy buildings work a lot slower. The Edain Team have said that they want the Witch King's main impact to be of a bitter, depleting winter instead of a mass slayer.

Winter would have a much larger impact on an enemy force. Mobility would be decreased by the snow. There would be psychological effects that would prevent people from performing certain tasks and slow down their thinking. In extreme cold, people would lose their limbs due to frostbite. There are quite a few examples in history of armies failing in cold conditions. Also, these effects can be seen in Middle Earth. For example, the Fellowship was completely slowed down by all of the snow in Caradhras until they had to retreat. Frodo almost loses consciousness until he is dragged out by Boromir. Also, think of the loses the elves took on the Helcaraxe during the First Age.

With this in mind, I would like to improve Ring Hero Witch King's passive to have a deadly winter in mind. All enemy units and heroes across the map would have a 15% reduction in movement speed and attack speed. All enemy heroes have reduced heal rates and increased cool downs(to represent psychological effects). The Witch King would be the centre of the cold and so the above effects would be increased when around him. Any units or heroes around the Witch King that have less than 20% health would be passively damaged. This would affect units that leave his presence as well for a small amount of time. This is to represent frostbite which would have a larger impact on the weak.

Overall, in addition to the current passives, all enemy units and heroes across the map would have a 15% decrease in movement and attack speed. All enemy heroes would have reduced heal rates and increased cool downs. These effects are increased when close to the Witch King. Any units or heroes close to the Witch King with less than 20% health are passively damaged.

What do you all think?
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 3. Jan 2017, 13:38
I agree with both Necro and Oakenshield's suggestions, Mornamarth as a Ring Hero would really fit, and the concept Necro proposed is so good! Oakenshield's idea for buffing Ring Hero Witch-King is also great, and would add, like he said, an element of choice to the use of the Ring to the strategy in general. You can choose Mornamarth and focus on the men of Carn Dûm, or choosing WK and focusing on the debuffs that Angmar is famous for :P.

 It would also be the only evil faction with two Ring Heroes (aside from different forms), like Gondor and Arnor being the only good ones with two Heroes (and the timer makes Mornamarth somewhat of an evil counterpart to Boromir, i think).

Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 3. Jan 2017, 15:17
While I do like these ideas, the Witch King is superior in every way to Mornamarth with the things that Thorin suggested. Nobody would every go with Mornamarth when you can globally debuff the enemy.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 3. Jan 2017, 16:00
I'm not sure...being able to recruit Dark Dunedain cheaply with free upgrades sounds powerful. The passives are very strong and Mornamarth even gains some good mass slaying abilities. He would be designed to support Carn Dum, so people would probably go for him if their strategy is focused on Carn Dum. Witch King would be used if the player has a much more varied army. Also, Mornamarth is much cheaper than Witch King so he can be used as Ring Hero much earlier in the game (like with Boromir and Gandalf).

If you want to make Mornamarth a better choice then there are a few things that could be done. I'm assuming that Lust for Dominion is only in a radius around Mornamarth but it could be activated to affect a much larger radius or even the whole map. Helegwen would be one of the only heroes that follow Mornamarth, so she could have a power increase as a reward. Maybe the effects of her arrow types could be increased (so Freezing Arrows might slow attack speed as well as movement speed or the effects of ice arrows could last longer than 5 seconds). If the heroic units are affected by Mornamarth, then Durmarth should be buffed by Mornamarth in some way as well.

Also, what would happen to Draugluin, Gulzar and Hwaldar if Mornamarth takes the Ring?
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 3. Jan 2017, 17:46
I think Drauglin would stay, as he is now a mindless hunter, if I remember correctly. Hwaldar would stay, as the Rhudaur Men would continue serving Mornamarth, and I think Gulzar would be gone, as he is the High Sorcerer and owes his power to the Witch King (As his backstory in the German RPG forum said).
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 3. Jan 2017, 17:56
I'm not sure...being able to recruit Dark Dunedain cheaply with free upgrades sounds powerful. The passives are very strong and Mornamarth even gains some good mass slaying abilities. He would be designed to support Carn Dum, so people would probably go for him if their strategy is focused on Carn Dum. Witch King would be used if the player has a much more varied army. Also, Mornamarth is much cheaper than Witch King so he can be used as Ring Hero much earlier in the game (like with Boromir and Gandalf).

Going for anything other than Men of Carn Dum is useless on the current patch. The only viable strategy is to go for Rhudaur at first, then transition to Men of Carn Dum. Getting a small discount to their price is worthless compared to a globbal debuff on the enemy, because you can still get men of carn dum while that debuff is happening, making you even stronger. Plus, you can still get a discount using Mornamarth ordinarily as it is.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 3. Jan 2017, 21:37
Going for anything other than Men of Carn Dum is useless on the current patch. The only viable strategy is to go for Rhudaur at first, then transition to Men of Carn Dum. Getting a small discount to their price is worthless compared to a globbal debuff on the enemy, because you can still get men of carn dum while that debuff is happening, making you even stronger. Plus, you can still get a discount using Mornamarth ordinarily as it is.
Mornamarth's current discount is 25% and doesn't include heroic units. In order to make him viable as Ring Hero, this discount would need to be increased. Also, Necro's proposal would apply for heroic units and also gives them free upgrades, saving even more money. Add the very good leadership, Brand of the One for more bonuses, Overwhelming Siege, and potential bonuses for Helegwen and Durmarth. With all of this, you'd have an incredibly strong support hero (and that's even before you consider his mass slaying skills that would be added).

The only heroes that support Carn Dum in any way are Mornamarth and Helegwen (buffing the archers). If you are saying that Carn Dum is the only viable strategy for Angmar in the current patch, then wouldn't buffing the only real support hero for Carn Dum be a good idea?
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 3. Jan 2017, 23:22
It would, but Mornamarth would still be able to buff them if Witch King took the Ring, plus the Witch King's debuff. Add to that that Men of Carn Dum are really strong to begin with, and the heroes that you wouldn't be able to recruit any longer when Mornamarth takes the ring, with Necro's concept, and it just makes more logical sense to get the Witch King for the global debuff. Like I said, I'm all for a 2nd Ring Hero, but it should be an even tradeoff, whereas with the concepts so far it just makes more sense to get Witch King. I personally don't really have any ideas for this, I'm just giving you the opinion of somebody who plays PvP regularly and knows the strengths of the faction :)
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 4. Jan 2017, 01:22
Personally i think only Angmar from all evil Factions have a capability to get second ring hero.This need to be more complex i think affecting whole faction.For the time Mornamarth is Ring Hero those building can't recruit troops nor do any other action if they are build otherwise player cant build them :Barrow,Tower of Sorcery upgrade,Barrow Witht Lair,Temple of Twiligh.Hall of Kings of Man instantly get level 3.
WitchKing is the only hero that cant be recruited if Mornamarth gets ring otherwise , he dies and can'r be respawned for the time Mornamarth have ring.Other Heroes gets rewarded for staying with thier new lord. Thier abilities recharge 50% faster .Rhudaur and orcs are forced to work with Mornamarth. The have not easy time INSERT IDEA HERE HELP ME WITH EFFECT Player no longer can recruit Thral Master but Orcs are avivable in Orc Camp ,Rhudaur Spearman and Axe Throwers Are avivable in Hillman Village they are free . Mornamarth want only his boys in Man of Carn Dum.
Carn Dum units come in from thier building in 15 guys including Shadow Guards and Black Knights.Carn Dum Archers,Soldier and Pikeman are recruited with upgrades and level 5 including Shadow Guards and Knights . Garrison Tower provide 60% faster recruitment instead of 30% and works on Shadow Guards and Black Knights too .Carn Dum standart units get improved abilites .
 Duelist is passive ability
 Punish ability reflect back 40% damage (2x more)
 Focused Barrage passive is improved and not only provide double speed attack but also damage too

Shadow Guards and Black Knights dont take command points.

After Mornamarth time runs out he dies and cant be revived in the next 5 minutes. Everything else going back to normal except Hall of King's Man building is paralyzed for the next 3 minutes . All heroes get punished for betrayal to WitchKIng and all thier abilites recharge 50% longer.WitchKing can be again respawned or recruited.When Mornamarth comes back he's abilites need to be firts recharged too and it take 100% longer.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 4. Jan 2017, 19:01
Slawek's ideas sound good. The idea of most heroes being unable to be recruited was probably the biggest down side to Necro's plan. All heroes except Witch King are still able to be recruited. I feel like most of them would still not want to fully support Mornamarth so there would be no bonuses to them but maybe those that are most loyal to the Witch King (Gulzar and Zaphragor) should be slightly weakened(increasing ability timers?). In contrast, some of the others like Helegwen and Durmarth would be rewarded for their service in some way.

For the Rhudaur and Orc units, the idea is that they become free but there is another negative effect for them. Maybe they could have a small armour decrease to symbolise how Mornamarth just doesn't care about them and throws them to the enemy.

Mornamarth would try to secure his own kingdom if he did take over to prevent treason and ensure loyalty. Maybe another effect of giving him the ring could be that all buildings are protected by a few Dark Dunedain. Once Mornamarth dies, all of these Dunedain die. Castle defences would have more range and all gates/camp entrances would be protected by more Dark Dunedain.
Like I said, I'm all for a 2nd Ring Hero, but it should be an even tradeoff, whereas with the concepts so far it just makes more sense to get Witch King.
Would you class Boromir/Arvedui and Gandalf as an even tradeoff? I understand what you are saying with your arguments and you're definitely more experienced than me with Edain. How would you balance these two proposals?
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 4. Jan 2017, 20:22
I little sorted this idea

Zitat
For the Rhudaur and Orc units, the idea is that they become free but there is another negative effect for them. Maybe they could have a small armour decrease to symbolise how Mornamarth just doesn't care about them and throws them to the enemy

For now i think about remove thier abilities and maybe they can't respawn becouse of  Thral Master is not avivable or he can be replaced and these units are recruited with shadow guard to checking out if Wildman and Orc dont plan to betray his lord ;). This can work like Overserr for orcs Another think might be they are debuffed by presence of other Man of Carn Dum units and become more vulnurable to fea near Mornamarth
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 4. Jan 2017, 22:34
If the Rhudaur and Orc units are having a Shadow Guard who is like an overseer instead of a thrall master, would they have any specific abilities? If they do have abilities, they should emphasise how Mornamarth and Dark Dunedain don't care about the Vassals of Angmar and just throw them into battle without thinking about their death. A few ideas:
Axe Throwers - the Guard orders the unit to fire massive volleys of axes at the enemy. The axe throwers gain +30% attack speed but -30% movement speed and armour. Lasts 20 seconds.
Spearmen - the Guard orders the unit to hold ground at all costs. The spearmen gain knockback resistance, fear resistance and +20% armour to melee for 20 seconds, but they can't move for this time and gain -20% armour to arrows.
Orcs - the Guard orders the units to ferociously strike down the enemy. The orcs gain +30% attack and speed for 20 seconds as well as a chance to knockdown the target but -30% armour.
Wolf Riders - the Guard orders the unit to crush the enemy with each charge. The wolf riders gain +40% speed and reduced crush deceleration but once they are slowed down, they have -30% armour.

I like your idea about how the units would have less fear resistance around Mornamarth since it was the Witch King who held them all together in one army. It would probably be a good downside to any new bonuses that they may get.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 5. Jan 2017, 01:07
Honestly, going back to Necro's proposal, I think that it would be a fairly even tradeoff if you just made all heroes and units recruitable while Mornamarth has the Ring, and got rid of the death timer. Mornamarth doesn't need to have a death timer just because Boromir has one, it suits Boromir's character which is why it's there to begin with. All the extra stuff proposed by Slawek is insane, at least what I could understand. He would be the most OP Ring Hero in the game, even stronger than Saruman and Sauron with all those buffs.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 5. Jan 2017, 17:50
Honestly, going back to Necro's proposal, I think that it would be a fairly even tradeoff if you just made all heroes and units recruitable while Mornamarth has the Ring, and got rid of the death timer. Mornamarth doesn't need to have a death timer just because Boromir has one, it suits Boromir's character which is why it's there to begin with. All the extra stuff proposed by Slawek is insane, at least what I could understand. He would be the most OP Ring Hero in the game, even stronger than Saruman and Sauron with all those buffs.
Makes sense. It does sound OP now that I actually think about it. If you would be able to get all heroes and units with this (I'm assuming Witch King isn't included) would there be any sort of effect for those who aren't Dark Dunedain?
Also would Ring Hero Witch King change to make it more of an even trade-off as well?
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 5. Jan 2017, 22:16
Well, if you took your proposals for Witch King, which are excellent, and stood them off against Necro's proposals, just changing it to not restrict recruitment of anybody but the Witch King, then it would be fairly close. Maybe slightly leaning towards Witch King being better, but close enough to be worth making a decision at the time.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 6. Jan 2017, 21:11
Thanks for the support and arguments for the ideas. I guess we'll just wait for what Necro says about it.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 7. Jan 2017, 11:59
I must admit now, thinking about it Kryptik has a point. The number of units that one would no longer be able to recruit is too heavy of a cost. It would make sense if we further buffed Mornamarth but the current proposal doesn't do that enough. So, I agree on not having the recruitment of units and heroes restricted apart from WK. However, I'm on the side of the timer, since it makes sense lore wise (in my opinion) and opens up more possibilities for the WK's return. As I see it the WK will either come down from Carn Dum when he hears that Mornamarth has found and stolen the One Ring (previously unrecruited) or he will come back from Mordor furious after having been betrayed (previously recruited). I think this one should definitely stay.

Oakenshield's WK proposal sounds great I definitely agree with a lot of that. Only small change I'd like to see is how the effect is distributed. That's just my personal thoughts on the matter but I feel like all the effects should vary depending on how far units are from the WK. For the movement and attack speed debuff I would propose something like that:

For the cooldown and healrate speed I was thinking:

Those are my thoughts on the matter.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 7. Jan 2017, 13:10
Once a formal proposal is drawn up I would be more than happy to support this.
The only thing I wish to add is that my major problem with AKW's mechanic at the moment is when you get the ring there is no feeling of award for getting it (At least it is not a punishment, like Iron Hills Dain) as it does not unlock anything new on the Witch-King himself, yes it has a passive effect but the player does not feel it. My suggestion would be in addition to passive improvements for the Ring to allow the Witch-King to mount a frost drake of the North, to rework a much missed element of Angmar, and to upgrade Harbinger of Winter, if an upgrade to the ability could be balanced.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 7. Jan 2017, 13:59
The passive improvements would be a part of Harbinger of Winter. I agree with the range changes that Necro proposed. A couple of active suggestions could be:
 - Mount Frost Drake of the North (thanks to lordoflinks for the idea).
 - Might of the Witch King become permanent.
 - Death Blade is permanently replaced by Life-Drinking Blade (doesn't need level 10). Would deal more damage as well as reducing enemy damage by 40% instead of the current 30%.
 - The Frostbite passive that I suggested previously that would damage nearby enemies with less than 20% health.
I hope at least one of these ideas would be accepted.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: The Witch-King of Angmar am 16. Jan 2017, 10:04
I wrote this in a hurry so i apologize for any english errors,

I am completly against a new ring hero for Angmar, because the witch-king is basically the faction itself the hole characteristic of the faction is foucsed on him and how he unites all types of evil forces under his banner to bring ruin to free people, and giving the ring to another hero means giving him the faction itself is such mess and it destroyes the core of the faction, we should not forget that werewolfs are breed by the witch-king, the head of all sorcery in angmar is the witch-king, the barrow wights would not exist if its not for the witch-king, zaphragor(the first blade of the witch-king) serves only the witch-king i can see him prefer dying instead of serveing mormorath, same thing goes for gulzar, and so on, hell even the units quotes is all about the witch-king, (build it for the witch-king - the forces of the witchking are victorus - i speak with the witch-king's voice - the building belongs to the witch-king now -..........etc) the orcs of gundaband and the trolls of the hills agreed to serve the witch-king but can you realy expect them to serve mormorath just because he found the ring? or will they kill him instead? if you realy wants to see 2 ring heroes in an evil faction i can say Rhun and Harad are your best choice if they came to be the last 2 missing factions.

if there is a way to implement the dragons of the north in Angmar again, i would totally agree and support it, i was thinking in making the witch-king able to ride one of these dragons once he hits level 10, or he can only get his dragon once you get the stronghold of the iron crown making that spell a bit more useful.

Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: TheDarkOne am 17. Jan 2017, 16:03
I am completly against a new ring hero for Angmar, because the witch-king is basically the faction itself the hole characteristic of the faction is foucsed on him and how he unites all types of evil forces under his banner to bring ruin to free people, and giving the ring to another hero means giving him the faction itself is such mess and it destroyes the core of the faction, we should not forget that werewolfs are breed by the witch-king, the head of all sorcery in angmar is the witch-king, the barrow wights would not exist if its not for the witch-king, zaphragor(the first blade of the witch-king) serves only the witch-king i can see him prefer dying instead of serveing mormorath, same thing goes for gulzar, and so on, hell even the units quotes is all about the witch-king, (build it for the witch-king - the forces of the witchking are victorus - i speak with the witch-king's voice - the building belongs to the witch-king now -..........etc) the orcs of gundaband and the trolls of the hills agreed to serve the witch-king but can you realy expect them to serve mormorath just because he found the ring?

We can expect them to serve him if he banishes the WK and takes his armor so they would mistake him for now ex-leader of Angmar so noone would leave Angmar ranks after that event. Even if they do I won't go against of it.

Though WK is a totally wretched hero due to his immense cost and equally low efficiency (spells are poor, stats are poor), Lieutenant of Carn Dum proves to be a much more durable and efficient hero. He greatly supports an army of Dark Dunedain and can replenish his depleted health to stay alive. He can be recruited much easier and faster. And while I hate the fact that I mostly have to keep Ring WK out of combat due to his vulnerability and his permanent debuff over the enemies (I only recruit the WK if the ring was found, so basically I pay 3000 res for that debuff), there won't be any reason to do so with Mornamarth.

And the background story of Mornamarth is... curiously suitable to become a Ring Hero. Even with all potential setbacks.

Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 17. Jan 2017, 17:06
In addition, if I may, wielding the power of the One Ring would be enough, I assume, to bind all those who oppose him to his will. The Wights and the Werewolves are no more than beasts and can easily be controlled. The Sorcerers are smart, they know better not to get in his way and they only seek power. As for the wildmen, fear will drive them to do as they are ordered.

The heroes are the only current problem I found, they are strong willed beings which would not serve Mornamarth apart from a few. They would fight him or flee the kingdom, however as it was previously discussed that would be too much of a downside. Any suggestion is welcome for that one.

I'll also update my post with the most recent addition from the discussion, it would be nice if the same could be done to the Original Post but that's up to Chiska.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: The Witch-King of Angmar am 17. Jan 2017, 18:53
Zitat
As the Witch-king demands absolute loyalty from his subjects, Angmar is a faction of sacrifice.
These words were typed by Edain Team

Its realy out of place to see a 'rebellion' in a loyalty and sacrifice based faction,not to mention the ringhero system you are suggesting is actually pretty similer to Boromir in Gondor since he also takes the ring and becomes the king and grant a great support to Gondor  pretty much just like how you want Mormorath so the ring system you want is not unique at all gameplay wise, but to see Boromir taking over in Gondor is not bad at all lore-wise since it barly had any king, (also in game you cant make Aragon king unless he lvl up so much), unlike Angmar which is ruled by an iron hand from the start.

You are saying The Witch-King is useless due to his spells and stats so the solution is to get another ring hero because he will be a better leader?
i am not buying that logic, The Witch-King will still be weak and the faction core is now dead, however i agree that he is too little too weak, his stats&spells can realy use a buff.

my ideas for buffing him is the following:

On a defreant note, i saw a really nice suggestion in one of the replays above, for ringhero system for the witch-king, instead of using the ring to cast winter on the entire map which means you have to keep him in your base (out of fight) to keep that debuff, he could become a thrall master himself resembling Angmar style it will be like this:

"Once the witch king find his master's ring he use his powerfull sorcery to summon the other nazguls with their heavy armor to form a battalion of 9 heroes with one thing on their minds "guard the one ring of power at all costs" the ring will drop when the last nazgul fall dead."

The important part in this system is the witch-king is not actually wearing the ring but just carrying it and if he dies another nazgul will pick it up untill they all die or be victorious, "completly lore friendly"

And for Sauron their is nothing more important than getting the one ring thats why he will send all of them to the witch-king without Hesitate.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 17. Jan 2017, 19:56
Necro, maybe you could mention in your revised idea that those increased debuffs for WK are for Ring Hero.
 
@The Witch-King of Angmar
The Edain Team have said that Angmar is made up of different factions that are held together by the Witch King. Zaphragor only joined because the Witch King was "a ruler with the power to enforce unity among Numenoreans and Hillmen, to dominate the wild Orcs and beasts of the wastes and forge a kingdom strong enough to conquer all in its path." (quote from the Team). Helegwen only joined because Arnor restricted her abilities while Angmar let her rise as high as she could. The Men of Carn Dum are just trying to become more powerful and Mornamarth in particular wants to rule Angmar. If he had a weapon that would let this happen, do you not think that he would try to take over?

If the others just want a leader strong enough to let them become as powerful as possible but also keep control of all armies, would they really care who he is? As Necro said, the Ring would be enough to bind the armies towards him, giving him control over the minds of others. The Men of Carn Dum soldiers would follow him anyway due to their loyalty, while the others would be held together through fear, greed, promise of revenge against Arnor, and the One Ring (essentially what it is now, just with the Ring as well).

If Mornamarth became Ring Hero, then the user would be forced to make a choice about what to do (something that only Gondor, Arnor and Lorien offer). You could either go for the Global Debuff and Mass Slayer (+any other effect we add to WK) or you could go for Unit Support and Minor Mass slaying. It would add an extra element of strategy to Angmar.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 17. Jan 2017, 20:09
Angmar is anything but a loyalty faction, just because the Witch-King demands doesn't mean that he actually gets it. Gulzar, Zaphragor are the only truly loyal beings under his command. As I previously stated, the sorcerers seek power, the wights and werewolves are beasts under his command. The Men of Rhudaur are also quite loyal, but they are only a minor force which can easily be overcome by fear. The Men of Carn Dum are merely here to gain power and wealth just like Helegwen and you guessed it Mornamarth. And if we're going for lore friendliness:
Zitat
The Witch-king knows well that while Mornamarth is a great asset, he is not truly loyal to anyone and is best kept on a short leash. For his part, Mornamarth burns to rule Angmar himself one day, but for now he bides his time and builds his power by destroying Angmar's enemies.

Indeed, the system is quite similar to Boromir's however it does bare its fair share of differences. In addition this is completely lore wise, as you can clearly see by the quote provided above. Angmar may be ruled by an Iron Hand straight from the start but most are either there against their will or they are here because the Witch-King is currently the strongest, if somebody stronger arises they will follow him in hopes of gaining more power. As you can see that was clearly indicated in the initial proposal but decided against later because of how much of a disadvantage it became.

As for your counter proposal, isn't that quite similar to Imladris's Ring Hero system? It's a perfectly acceptable proposal, although not my favorite, I much prefer the eternal winter idea.

EDIT: Posted before seeing Oakenshield's post
@Oakenshield: Will take care of that
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: The Witch-King of Angmar am 17. Jan 2017, 21:05
You want to give the one ring of power and throw the witch-king of his kindom(souron's second in command)to take Angmar itself to a character that not even in the books by using an already used ringhero system, if you manage to convince the team to do this idea, then you are using black magic [ugly], the witch-king is literally the only character from the books that we know in Angmar, the whole basic concept of Angmar refers to the witch-king's power acquisition as Ealendril mentioned.

Zitat
Dont forget that the Witch King is the central person of the faction and the whole basic concept refers to his power acquisition. It would be mechanically poor when the core figure of the faction is replaced at once by another hero, and thereby becomes unimportant. These are conceptual and game mechanical elements that must be adhered to.

I understand your motivation behind your idea and i know it will give the player the choice of what to do with the ring but look at the cost you paied, the faction core is literally destroyed.

Having one ring hero using unique system is more than enough for every faction, if gondor, lothorien and arnor have more than one ring hero/system does not mean Angmar has to be like them.

Its true that the ring system i suggested is similer to imladris's one execpt that elrond is not part of the ring battalion unlike the witch-king, however i find it a good trade to fix the little lore problem that seems to bother some players how the witch-king uses the ring, however i dont mind the current system too.
 
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 17. Jan 2017, 21:59
As long as Edain is concerned the heroes of Angmar are as canon as anything else to my eyes, so the lore argument doesn't apply here since Angmar is mostly made up of stuff that doesn't exist since there was so little in the books about them. Also, you should be careful with quotes, here Ealendril wasn't referring to the idea of a secondary ring hero but to the idea of having Sauron be recruitable  once the ring is gained "another hero" refers to Sauron. Here is the complete quote:


As for the faction core, you should have no worries. At the beginning of the debate it was indeed considered to restrict the recruitments but that has since been decided against as I previously stated. The core of Angmar's faction is not the Witch King, he is the central hero of the faction, that is not the same although I wouldn't be able to tell you what the core of Angmar is.

The base of this idea, which got me to propose a secondary ring hero for this faction as opposed to another, is that Angmar is meant to oppose Arnor/Gondor which both have two Ring Heroes.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: The Witch-King of Angmar am 17. Jan 2017, 22:39
Wut?, i never said Ealendril was talking about mormarath i know he was talking about sauron but what does it matter? what he said applies also to mormarath as ringhero as well, the concept of his words is what important, i think you misunderstanded my point, the core of angmar is not the witch-king? you think that because of the possiblity you talked about of his army betraying him? i dont think you and me have the same idea of what a core of faction is.

 "It would be mechanically poor when the core figure of the faction is replaced at once by another hero, and thereby becomes unimportant" tell me friend, when mormarath takes the ring and take over the witch-king's kindom isnt he "replacing him thereby making him unimportant"?

The base of this idea, which got me to propose a secondary ring hero for this faction as opposed to another, is that Angmar is meant to oppose Arnor/Gondor which both have two Ring Heroes.
That doesnt mean to copy gameplay mechanics from other faction, further more, Angmar was never meant to be only an evil counter part of arnor its much more than that, it has its own unique Identity as every other faction so it doesnt matter if arnor have 2 ring heroes.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 17. Jan 2017, 22:59
The idea of the faction is of different groups trying to become more powerful (even at the expense of others) with one strong figure tying them all together. Pretty much everyone in Angmar (apart from Wights and Wolves obviously) decided to follow the WK because he was more powerful than Arnor and could therefore offer them more. It wasn't his name or his status as a Nazgul that made people follow him. It was his power and the opportunities it presented. Put it this way: If you were a soldier working for the Witch King and then another figure turned up who is even more powerful, would you stick with the Witch King or go to the more powerful ruler so it would turn out better for you?

I understand what you are saying about a key figure being replaced by someone else. However, would you class Boromir as the most important or prominent hero of Gondor? I'd probably give that role to Aragorn or Gandalf. However, Boromir can be given the Ring and in that moment, he becomes the most important hero of the faction as everything is focused on him. In Necro's plan, the Witch King would still be important due to the threat of his return (represented by the timer). Some extra effect could be added when Witch King returns (e.g. station units around all buildings to keep control and prevent rebellion) or as a passive while Mornamarth is ruler (not sure about what this could be although I'm sure we can think of something).
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: TheDarkOne am 18. Jan 2017, 03:16
I understand what you are saying about a key figure being replaced by someone else. However, would you class Boromir as the most important or prominent hero of Gondor? I'd probably give that role to Aragorn or Gandalf. However, Boromir can be given the Ring and in that moment, he becomes the most important hero of the faction as everything is focused on him. In Necro's plan, the Witch King would still be important due to the threat of his return (represented by the timer). Some extra effect could be added when Witch King returns (e.g. station units around all buildings to keep control and prevent rebellion) or as a passive while Mornamarth is ruler (not sure about what this could be although I'm sure we can think of something).

Very well said.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 19. Jan 2017, 13:36
The idea of the faction is of different groups trying to become more powerful (even at the expense of others) with one strong figure tying them all together. Pretty much everyone in Angmar (apart from Wights and Wolves obviously) decided to follow the WK because he was more powerful than Arnor and could therefore offer them more. It wasn't his name or his status as a Nazgul that made people follow him. It was his power and the opportunities it presented. Put it this way: If you were a soldier working for the Witch King and then another figure turned up who is even more powerful, would you stick with the Witch King or go to the more powerful ruler so it would turn out better for you?

The thing is though, that in your concept Mornamart does not offer more than the Witch-King to its followers. There are two things necessary in a rebellion: one that there is discontent with the current leader's progress, and the other that there is a promise to a different, more extreme alternative. The problem is then becomes that few are willing to risk the progress made if they would follow another person's will.
The Witch-King promised revenge to the Wildmen of Rhudaur, domination to the Men of Carn Dum, carnage to the Orcs and Wolves, limitless experimentation in Necromancy to the Sorcerers, and sacrificial bodies for the Barrow-Wights. In exchange he wanted Arnor extinguished, and Rivendell held off/weakened. Mornamarth cannot make more extreme promises than that which give Angmar's inhabitants a better bargain.

The Witch-King and Mornamarth are inherently different characters: the Nazgul does Sauron's bidding and his no utility for Angmar once Arnor is destroyed (remember the way the Nazgul went all-in against the armies of Eärnur and Elrond); adversely, Mornamarth wants a realm for his own in which quite obviously the Men of Carn Dum have a higher social position towards all other Men, Orcs and creatures. Angmar under Mornamarth resembles Arthedain's superiority over Rhudaur, and Cardolan to a lesser extent. Mornamarth is a Man and thus easily corrupted by power.

I would like to see these issues addressed from a conceptual point of view before all of you continue suggesting abilities and powers that form a very inconsistent picture of the concept. I am not principally in favour or against the second ring-hero but work needs to be done in presenting a coherent picture.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: The Witch-King of Angmar am 21. Jan 2017, 18:42
As far as i know, the ringwraiths are meant to reclaim the one ring, so if mormarath found the ring and wore it, i dont think the witch king will find him as great problem since all the knowledge of mormarath in magic is nothing compared to him, and mormarath cant trigger and use the full power of the ring, the ring will destroy him and be in the witch-king's favor in battle since he wants to come back to his master.

I would class Gandalf and Aragon as the most important heroes in Gonder, however, when Boromir takes the ring, Gandalf is still as important as before and Continue to aid the kindom of gondor, Aragon didnt sit on the thron of gondor untill he was as old as my grand father, most of the time he is just a ranger, Boromir is the son of denethor who are allowed to rule gondor when thier is no king, so even when boromir takes the ring and everything focused around him, the other important heroes of gondor didnt loose anything of thier place in the faction and the faction characterization is not effected,thats why it fits perfectly for boromir to be a ring hero unlike how the witch-king will be replaced in angmar.

Now you are saying the forces of angmar will serve mormorath out of fear and because he is currently the strongest, yet the witch-king will come and slay him, how did the witch-king kill someone stronger than him? reinforcment from mordor? that is not possible at all, you know how far mordor is from angmar? not to mentions all the good factions that the witch-king will face on the way, there is no way that mordor troops will make it to angmar, and as far as i know at angmar time, mordor was not as strong as at the battle against gondor, and i dont think its a good idea to see mordor troops in angmar faction game play-wise.

The wizards cult of Angmar follow Gulzar (witch-king's best student) who is very loyal and grateful to the witch-king, for him the witch-king is not just a master but a teacher as well, so the wizards wont betray the lord of all witchers.

If the troops didnt obey mormarath then you would have mormarath and his men Vs the witch-king and the orcs hillmen wizards wolfs barrow wights trolls, the witch-king is sauron's strongest servant and he gave all his forces the ultimate promises i dont think its a good idea to leave such a good leader and follow mormarath out of fear, since he will treat them miserably, and will throw them to battle and not care about them since he only care about his men and he look down to other races, and he already cant offer more than the witch-king to them, there is no great trade off that could convince the armies to betray the witch-king.

"his own folk quail at him, and they would slay themselves at his bidding." - J.R.R. Tolkien

Thats another point why I am against mormarath as a second ring hero is because I realy like the theme of sacrifice in the faction and how the forces of the witch-king ready to pay their own lives to archive victory, and in my opinion it doesnt fit to have this sacrifice theme and a rebellion in the same faction.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: TheDarkOne am 23. Jan 2017, 00:53
Mornamarth may use the essential tension within Angmar ranks. Hillmen were promised a shelter, something not close enough but kind of prosperity. Men of Carn Dum were promised power. Necromancers were promised limitless knowledge of Dark arts and beasts were promised an endless supply of food and prey to hunt and kill.

And with the finding of the One Ring and a (possible plotted) major loss in one of the minor battles and consequent heated tension, Mornamarth begins the rebellion. He secretly goes to disillusioned Angmar heroes. Even if he can't convince all of them, Zaphragor in particular, he can easily dispose of them with his newfound power and loyal troops.

Hwaldar knows that his men, hillmen of Rhudaur, certainly deserve something more than a total disrespect and a dissatisfying reward for all their deaths.

Helegwen doesn't care about the faction's leader much and she doesn't really have a choice but to aid him. Coercing Gulzar and Zaphragor would be a real challenge but if Mornamarth succeeds in convincing them that their King is a traitor himself, leading them only to destruction and caring only for his own goals and nothing else, the two closest to the Witch King will help to end the reign of the Lord of the Nine. Mornamarth and all Angmar key figures storm into the Sanctum leaving all guards dead in their path...

That's how everything could have started. But I cant imagine how exactly it ended. But there should be a possibility of the return of the WK (and even his possible active role after the rebellion). Come on, guys. We can make it cool together.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 23. Jan 2017, 17:59
I understand what Garlodur and The Witch-King of Angmar are saying about how a rebellion needs something to start it off and how there isn't that idea in Angmar. However, TheDarkOne is making a good point by saying that WK doesn't care about his people and is just influencing and bribing them to follow his own requests. Once he has no need of them, he'll just forget about them. While Mornamarth may not care about anyone other than his own men, he may try to create doubts in the minds of the others. He'd try and convince them that the WK doesn't care about them. He'd make them think that Mornamarth wouldn't forget about them.

The One Ring gives people the power depending on the power they already have (which is why hobbits can only turn invisible, while Gandalf and Galadriel could become new Dark lords). With the one ring combined with the power and influence he already has, Mornamarth would be able to influence the thoughts and decisions of others. Maybe not enough to cause a full division or civil war (like in Numenor) but definitely enough to create doubts and reduce their faith in the Witch King.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: TheDarkOne am 24. Jan 2017, 02:28
While Mornamarth may not care about anyone other than his own men, he may try to create doubts in the minds of the others. He'd try and convince them that the WK doesn't care about them. He'd make them think that Mornamarth wouldn't forget about them.

With the one ring combined with the power and influence he already has, Mornamarth would be able to influence the thoughts and decisions of others. Maybe not enough to cause a full division or civil war (like in Numenor) but definitely enough to create doubts and reduce their faith in the Witch King.

He might try to behave like he cares about all thralls under him to a certain extent to become a trustworthy figure and gain their support. The ring could empower his vampire-like abilities, turning him into an unique hero who will be the last standing as he drains life from all troops around him.

We can take a closer look upon another situation: he finds the ring but wants to pass it to the Witch King to gain his favor and ascend to the ruler of Angmar while the Witch King departs (later of course). In this scenario Mornamarth is a temporary ring hero who passes (via some game mechanic) the Ring to the WK. This is cruicial if the Lord of Angmar hasn't been recruited yet. But if he is present, Mornamarth can still keep it and pass the Ring to the WK later.

After passing the Ring Mornamarth loses much of the newfound strength but still retains his upgraded abilities and spells (as a reward for his loyalty and a consequent gift of the WK in the form of teaching him more sorcery).

However, if he possesses the ring for far too long (5-10 min?), the Ring ultimately corrupts Mornamarth and he starts a rebellion with any possible setbacks which results either in his death or in the Witch King taking the ring. This may encourage people to pass the Ring to the WK as soon as possible to avoid such a situation.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 24. Jan 2017, 21:20
So the current three ideas are:
 - Mornamarth starts a rebellion to take over Angmar (Necro's idea). This would be temporary as the Witch King would eventually come back.
 - Mornamarth holds onto the Ring to give it to Witch King. When he is holding the Ring, he has the powers from Necro's idea. Once he has given the ring to WK, his power level is between Ring Mornamarth and normal Mornamarth. If he doesn't give the ring to WK, he would be corrupted and start a rebellion similarly to the first idea. In this case, WK can't be recruited.
 - Mornarmarth uses the ring solely to enhance his own vampiric abilities. He doesn't care for his soldiers and uses them to personally become stronger. This effect could extend to enemy troops as he drains their energy for his own purpose.
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 24. Jan 2017, 23:54
I basically agree with the Witchking on this: Currently the Witchking is too central for Angmar and his system is much more interesting than a theoretical system for Mornamarth. (Eventhough it's sad, his ringsystem got completely crushed in 4.x. But that's basically the story of many features... :()
Actually, Angmar used to have 2 ringheroes, Gulzár being the second. This was changed for basically all the counter arguments mentioned above, primarily that it took the focus away from the WK.
Apart from everything already said, my personal problem is, that there exist already tons of heroes who get overpowered by the Ring while trying to use it (Boromir, Arvedui, Theoden, Gandalf the Grey, Saruman the Cursed). Thus I'd prefer the WK-system where he just murders the entirety of ME by drowning the world in eternal winter. :D

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 2. Feb 2017, 19:14
Ok there are the current Mornamarth proposals that are being worked on. However, there are also those who believe that WK should be improved as well in his ring state. I’ve tried to bring the different ideas together into one proposal.



I've tried to make it reasonably balanced while sticking to the main theme of winter and fear. Any numbers can obviously be changed at a later date but this is just a general idea. What do you all think?
Titel: Re: New Angmar Ringhero
Beitrag von: Dain@ am 5. Feb 2017, 12:10
I fully share your opinion (OakenShield 224, The DarkOne)!  I would like to express my support for the idea Necromant about alternative ring the hero in the face of Angmar Mornomart. It is really interesting and offers an alternative way for the development of Angmar through rebellion. In fact, the idea is good because Mornomart as the person owns all of the disadvantages that all people, namely, lust for power and self-interest, which is why I think the idea is really good Necromant.

And maybe you will be interesting