The Balrog reached the bridge.Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.
In the Lord of the Rings it is stated, that Balrogs DO have wings! (Or things that look like wings) ;)No, it's only a comparison^^ZitatThe Balrog reached the bridge.Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.
...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...No shadows here, just wings.
There is another quote:Zitat...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...No shadows here, just wings.
"I feel thin, sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread."means Bilbo is literally turned into butter and scraped on a piece of bakery? :D
Would you also think that this:I don't think that's a good comparison: Physiological Balrogath could have wings, but Bilbo couldn't be bread or butter. That means you can take the quote about the Balrog literally, but not the quote about Bilbo.Zitat"I feel thin, sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread."means Bilbo is literally turned into butter and scraped on a piece of bakery? :D
Another pretty clear piece of evidence is that the Balrog of Moria (as well as the Balrog that Glorfindel fought) was defeated by throwing him down a mountain. Gandalfs whole plan in Moria is based upon this. That doesn't make a lot of sense if a Balrog would indeed be capable of flying, does it?Nobody talked about flying, just wings. Having wings doesn't mean being able to fly. Like ostriches. ;)
Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of MorgothYes, you could call it another metaphor, and I can not falsify it, but I doubt that you can prove it.
Yes, you could call it another metaphor, and I can not falsify it, but I doubt that you can prove it.Actually, I can prove it. :D
[..] from Old English flyht, from Proto-Germanic *fluhtiz, derived from *fleuhaną (“to flee”). Cognate with Dutch vlucht and German Fluchthttp://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flight
I'm aware of the fact, that "fly" can mean "flee". But can you prove that Tolkien meant "flee" in this special case? That's what I doubt, not that it can mean "flee".
I always wanted to know:
Where exactly is Durin's Folk's dwelling in the Blue Mountains? I found only 3 answers, and they were all different - one stated it was in the Southern Blue Mountains, south of the spur (MERP wiki); another stated it was in the central or southern part of the Northern Blue Mountains, built over the survived ruins of Nogrod (LOTR wiki); and the last location I found was in the Northern Blue Mountains beyond the Little Lune river, a few miles north of Belegost which survived south of the Little Lune (Tolkien Gateway).
Which one of these is true? Or is there a map showing the so called 'Thorin's Halls', the Little Lune and the ruins of Belegost?
He [Sauron] rules a growing empire from the great dark tower of Barad-dûr in Mordor, near to the Mountain of Fire, wielding the One Ring.- J.R.R. Tolkien: Letter 131 to Milton Waldman -
But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants.
[...]
Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger.
Unless some other seized itHowever that doesn't mean that the new possessor can use that power unless he has the strength and will to do it
if sufficiently strong and heroic by natureSo i believe that Isildur, gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, (sam?) Were able to prevent Sauron from taping to his power by simply not giving up the Ring, while still non of them got what it's required to actually use that power to its limit.
ZitatWhile he [Sauron] wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'.- J.R.R. Tolkien: Letter 131 to Milton Waldman -
Tolkiens Letter No. 131 - To Milton Waldman
Anyway all this stuff is mainly concerned with Fall, Mortality, and the Machine.
Both of these will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective, – and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices instead of development of the inherent inner powers or talents — or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of dominating: bulldozing the real world, or coercing other wills.
The Machine is our more obvious modern form though more closely related to Magic than is usually recognised.
[...]
But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation.
The 'Elves' are 'immortal', at least as far as this world goes: and hence are concerned rather with the griefs and burdens of deathlessness in time and change, than with death. The Enemy in successive forms is always 'naturally' concerned with sheer Domination, and so the Lord of magic and machines;
îsh kakhfê ai-'d-dûr-rugnul!
May my excrement be poured upon the naked-jawed (ones)!
Her return is 'obligated' because it's her fate and an essential path of her life as a royal High Elf from Valinor, who witnessed the Splendour of the Two Trees.
The initial Perfection of the World was inevitably marred and corrupted by the powers of Melkor/Morgoth, who used Arda (except obviously Aman) as his own personal One Ring to spread his will and evil essence; and condemned it to an ineluctable destiny of decay and corruption, something that the Three Rings momentarily slowed and stopped.
The fate of the Elves was thus already decided (even before their Awakening in Arda), and that's why the Valar wisely decided to invite the Eldar to Valinor and always persuaded to sail towards it or return; because Valinor is the only place in which the Elves can live fully according to their nature of immortal beings, without fearing corruption or decay, since Valinor was made by Immortal Beings and made immortal by them.
Galadriel obviously knows this really well and her longing for the Undying Lands is always vivid, but she is divided and worried, because, as she tells Frodo in FOTR (book), the Love of the Eldar for their creations is deep as the depth of the Sea and she doesn't want to leave her realm and condemn it to vanish along the Ages of the World; but she is also well aware that, whether Sauron regains the One Ring or the One Ring is destroyed, her realm and her powers are doomed to fade forever and her people become rustic inhabitants of darkened woods.
That's why she also personally tells Frodo that she wishes that the One Ring had never been created, and thus letting the Three Rings to allow the Elves to stay in the World for other centuries without diminishing.
Her return to Aman is obligated by these facts, the sad story of corruption, decay and disenchantment of Arda, that goes from the initial titanic wars between the Valar and Melkor, to the betrayal of Sauron with the creation of the One Ring.
Wether or not the decision of the Valar to take the Elves to Aman was wise or right is actually a pretty hard question. Even the Valar weren't 100 % sure on this. Some (amongst which Ulmo was chief) thought that the Elves should have been left to wander Middle-earth and heal the land with their gifts/skill.
So the marring of Arda is not necessary the reason for the elves to retreat to Aman, but the reason for the elves to be (or stay) in Arda and enrich it with their subcreation.
in the sillmarilion sauron became a giant bat if im not mistaken
well why in the mod he is a swarm of bats and not a giant bad ass bat
why in the mod he is a swarm of bats and not a giant bad ass batCause Sauron is not a Batman! :o
he s not batman he s a bat
By the way, this is the Lore Corner, and we are now going a bit off topic talking about possible concepts of the game or game's mechanics [ugly]you have a point mate
Gandalf the Gray, I suggest you create a new thread on the 'General Suggestions' for Gorthaur and his vampire form, or add your proposal to an already-existing thread about him :)
It's been a while since I've last read it, but yeah i do remember such a thing.
Meditation is a good word to describe it^^
#Jedi elves
My question is - what does this mean? I know it means that their spirit consumes their body and it becomes invisible.
[Fëanor] died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.The Silmarillion: Chapter 13 - Of the Return of the Noldor
^^So they are still visible to everyone as normal after they fade?
^^So they are still visible to everyone as normal after they fade?I'd say so, yes.
I was never really convinced by the idea of Elves slowly fading into harmless and mourning spirits, similar to the fate of Sauron after the destruction of the One Ring.I never heard of that before. Is there really some source that describes something like that?
I never heard of that before. Is there really some source that describes something like that?
It's something I read once on Tolkien Gateway, the last paragraph of the 'Decline of the Elves', extrapolated from a passage of the 'Morgoth's Ring', as showed in the second reference at the bottom of the page.
For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly: the limit of their lives is the life of Arda, which though long beyond the reckoning of Men is not endless, and ages also.Morgoth's Ring: The Later Quenta Silmarillion - Laws and Customs Among the Eldar
Moreover their body and spirit are not separated but coherent. As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change.
This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalie on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly.
Now that is interesting.
I suppose you can't really say then, if it is canon or not, since Morgoth's Ring (as the whole History of Middle-earth Series) consists of early manuscripts and development notes from Prof. Tolkien. Strictly speaking none of this made it into the published, finished Versions of the Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion, and I guess Tolkien had good reasons for that.
So yeah, who is to say what happens to the elves that stay? No one knows! And that in itself is somewhat beautiful. ^^
Talking about Silvan Elves, is it written somewhere in the books if Thranduil went to Valinor or stayed to rule his kingdom? My theory is that he stayed in Middle-earth, but does the lore contradict this?
Well, if Thranduil's fate is unknown, he may have decided that his people in Eryn Lasgalen needed him, so he may have decided to remain in Middle-earth.
^^DieWalküre, since his fate is unknown, he may have passed into the West. But, since I like to imagine some Elves remained in Middle-earth, I hope he remained to lead his people :).
i dont think that this is Valimar xD
Well, it's possible that Thranduil went to Valinor so he could hypotheticaly be with his wife :).P.S: I like your interpretation of Valinor :).
Well, if Thranduil's fate is unknown, he may have decided that his people in Eryn Lasgalen needed him, so he may have decided to remain in Middle-earth.
^^DieWalküre, since his fate is unknown, he may have passed into the West. But, since I like to imagine some Elves remained in Middle-earth, I hope he remained to lead his people :).
What about his wife? :)
She may have found Peace in the Halls of Mandos, and, then, reborn and gained back her physical body, to live forever in the Evergreen Plains of Valinor.
So, why won't our Thranduil reunite with his Love to be eternally in the Joy of Valimar, among the Holy Ones? :)
Even though, if he really decided to reach the Immortal Shores, he would obviously 'lose' any kind of Authority, intended as the Authority that he (and all the other Elven Lords) had in the mortal World.
Is it stated somewhere in the books that Legolas' mother is dead?
Lothlórien is a Sindar-based realm, with a solid and ancient Sindarin 'ruling class', of which the Prince Celeborn is the apex.
So, taking for granted that the kingdom of Doriath is definitely the most famous and legendary Sindarin realm in this woodland kin's History, a Sindarin Horn might be the wisest and most conceptual choice, in my opinion.
While, although a Noldorin Horn for Galadriel could be logically legitimate, it would infer, I guess, that Galadriel is a 'common' political and military ruler of Lórien, as the other Elven Lords, and that the Noldorin warfare tradition is particularly strong and still present in Lothlórien.
Therefore, as I wrote above, Galadriel is indeed the leader of Lothlórien, but she's a very special exception.
The 'Angelic Exception' I explained above (**)
I always wanted to know:
Where exactly is Durin's Folk's dwelling in the Blue Mountains? I found only 3 answers, and they were all different - one stated it was in the Southern Blue Mountains, south of the spur (MERP wiki); another stated it was in the central or southern part of the Northern Blue Mountains, built over the survived ruins of Nogrod (LOTR wiki); and the last location I found was in the Northern Blue Mountains beyond the Little Lune river, a few miles north of Belegost which survived south of the Little Lune (Tolkien Gateway).
Which one of these is true? Or is there a map showing the so called 'Thorin's Halls', the Little Lune and the ruins of Belegost?
"For just as I [Gandalf] was nearing Bree I was overtaken by Thorin Oakenshield, who lived then in exile beyond the north-western borders of the Shire. [...]"
Can I just say that I profoundly and significantly appreciate and like this thread and the relative discussions? :)
lore debates are like 'vital nourishment' for me :D
[...] and I agree that Nimloth white tree symbol from Númenorean's shields of second age (and from Lotr prologe) [...]
Concerning symbol of white tree, we probably have one thing to think about.
In general, in movies, we have symbol of Nimloth, which is white tree of Númenor
Its blossoms appeared as the Sun set, and their perfume filled the night in Númenor's royal city.But Nimloth is symbol of identity for Númenoreans. It was gift from Eldar with reason.
And as I have said it is the highest symbol of identity of Elendil and his people no matter of place and time where they live. :)
One note, there were nine ships not seven (according to some papers and Tolkien gateway info)Ah you're right. I'm always mixing that one up. It's basically the seven ships that carried the seven stones... [ugly]
Seven is number correlated mainly to seven palantirs which they gain from the elves.
My personal vote goes for Celebrimbor. While the Shadow of Mordor game is not canonical obviously, and the fact that Celebrimbor is a spirit barred from the undying lands more so; Sauron would not have the might, nor the Valar reason to bar him, since his only sin was being deceived, something Sauron has done to plenty of people over the years(can anyone say Numenor?), at least he had good intentions in his failings, and he did save the 3.
At least that is what happens in the game, and it is in my opinion a very skillful rendition of the scenario What if a high Elf would use the One Ring.An idea for some ingame Ring hero? anyone? xD
Don't tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep it safe. Understand Frodo, I would use this Ring from a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine.Gandalf realizes that from this desire to do good would sprout evil, even continuing on (in the novel), and saying he does not wish to become a Dark Lord himself.
At least that is what happens in the game, and it is in my opinion a very skillful rendition of the scenario What if a high Elf would use the One Ring.
Omg I love that soundtrack! It always plays in the evil campaign map of bmfe1 (**)! Hearing Saruman speaking about the conquest of Middle-Earth and this soundtrack playing in the background while the camera moves across the Middle-Earth map is really one of the most thrilling experiences ever!
Sauron (the greatest craftsman in middle earth)Is there a source for this? I know that this association seems fitting, with Sauron being a Maia of Aule, but are there any more examples to this except the One Ring?
needing Celebrimbor's help to finish the ringMaybe finishing was a bad choice of words on my part. Speaking in game lore: The Ring was definetly finished and completed in its function by Sauron. It enhanced Saurons Powers and could dominate the Will of other lesser Ringbearers. But in doing so the Ring revealed itself. Celebrimbor did not alter or enhanced any of the Rings power, he only hid/cloaked its influence in the minds of others. And it makes sense that he, as an Elf, would have a better understanding than Sauron of what Elves could perceive.
It quite sili to think that the one who taught the Elves how to make the rings in the first place, would need assistance from an ElfWeeeell... Wouldn't it also be silly to think that a theoretical physicist could build a flawless rocket on the first try? ^^
Although it has different effects depending on people's own characteristics, the One Ring is totally complete in itself, and its inner essence could never be altered (diminish or augment) by anyone's actions.Again, where exactly do you get that from? It sounds logical yes, but isn't that rather an extended association with the fact that the Ring could never be destroyed by anyone?
Besides, I am manifestly a pro-Valar person, so it's definitely a very personal opinion of mine xDThen I assume there is no point in discussing the Ainur and their various missteps and flaws, if you already made up your mind about them. ;)
Sauron's Will will always remain bound to the One Ring until it exists.Of course, Sauron cannot die while the Ring exists. I only wanted to stress that another Ringwielder would not be posessed by Saurons Will through the Ring. Galadriel or Gandalf with the Ring could theoretically use the Rings Power to defeat Sauron (in Body and Will), but would finally turn evil on their own because the purpose of the One Ring inevitably leads to evil.
once we know that all the Elves are inevitably bound to leave the World when they die and that their spirits reach the Halls of Mandos, we can't thus accept by logic a vision like the one the game proposes, with a spirit of a High Elf wandering around Middle Earth without rest nor relief.is not violated. In SoM Celebrimbor did not die, at least in the same sense that Sauron does not die, because they both bound themselves to the One Ring.
Being a pro-Valar person doesn't mean that I forgive everything they did, or forget their flaws. I think I left a couple of comments in an Imladris-related thread in the Edain Suggestions board and in the Annals of Aman about the Valar's sins, and how, in the end, they were kind of right;Right there, you immediatly forgave them everything! :D
So, taking into consideration the comparison I made about the Silmarils' Light and the original one of the Two Trees (speaking about claiming rights), we could say that Sauron could be as well seen as the legitimate owner of all the Rings of Power (included the Three) as his knowledge/formula flows in all of them regardless of their specific nature.Then you're disregarding another of Tolkiens basic structures: Creation and Subcreation. Everything in Arda is ultimately a Subcreation of Eru, but the Subcreator still came up with his/her creation themselves. There is no claiming rights, because the Silmarils would not have been without Fëanor. Tulkas may reminded him that their Light originally came from Yavanna (not that it belongs to the Valar), but Aule (being a Subcreator himself) is immediatly defending him.
Sauron is the true and only Lord of the Rings.
But [Sauron], finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel.
For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so.There is no purely evil presence in Arda, no black and white characters. You become evil by disregarding others and focusing on yourself. Yes, in the Third Age Sauron and his Will have turned to evil, but they don't just make a wielder evil.
What would have been Sauron's course of action had he regained the ring? (let's say Gollum danced around a little bit more and Frodo tripped into the lava meaning the Nazguls made it back in time to Mount. Doom to cease the ring)
We are talking about Earth, Fire, Air and Water, the founding components of Arda itself 8-)Apart from that, even Narya doesn't enable Gandalf to throw fireballs left, right and center. As far as I know this refers mostly to inspiration and creating a fire inside one's heart to not give up hope. Yes, he eventually uses some fire magic, but only as Gandalf the Grey and not as his... well, ascended form as Gandalf the White. And since I highly doubt that there exists a "ranking" of power between the three elven rings, Elrond and Galadriel aren't able to do so. Of course both have control over their dominion (Elrond via the river, Galadriel e.g. by conjuring a mist to guard Eorls ride), but still: This is Tolkien's way of magic, you do not stand there bending elements (in the Avatar sense), instead you have a deep connection with the lands you live in, granting you certain abilities. (Which probably don't even originate from the Rings of Power, for people like Finrond Felagund could also use magic. And him being Galadriel's brother, I don't think the Lady of Light really has Nenya as some form of vessel, to channel a mighty rain of destruction.)
I'm afraid it does contradict the lore though.
Celebrimbor was never aware of the One Ring until Sauron's revelation, nor did he ever contribute to its creation.
This vision is still contradictory, no matter which side we decide to look at it from :)
Again, I don't want to persecute that game, but it's also true that it shouldn't theoretically be possible constructing solid lore considerations upon it.
The lesser rings of power were forged in Eregion as the great rings were, and were 'test runs' of the actual rings of power, mere 'essays in the craft' as Gandalf puts it. It is said they made 'many' of these rings, which could be anywhere from 20-100 reasonably, because there are 20 great rings of power.
But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will.Of course you could argue that Sauron maybe did not hand out all the Rings that he gathered, but to me the quote sounds like he dealt out all the Rings he had.
However, more importantly than what is stricly canon, what ultimately matters is our own interpretation of Tolkien's world.
Let me draw you a visual Val:As I said before the game's story either builds upon the main timeline (green), or nestles in between the not further explained parts (blue). And that makes sense, since the Silmarillion ist written by the Elves, so they can't know every detail that might have happened (orange).
So: No contradictions. Just elegantly fitting into existing niches.
Yes, Sauron is just smart xDWell... I'd say that to my knowledge no one in the entire history of Middle-Earth is smart, at least not the way anyone on planet Earth uses this noun.
But of course, if Sauron had started to build up his military power right at the beginning of the 2nd age, he might have been able to conquer Middle-Earth before Númenor got so mighty.Actually the reason why he did lose the Last Alliance war was his absense from Middle-Earth, meaning Gil-Galad could recover from the war in Eregion and gather a large enough army to defeat him together with Elendil's kingdoms. Therefore you are right, but the reason is even more specified in Tolkien's works!
Ok, I made a little further research on the topic, and, yes, the game's timeline would be legitimate in a very purely theoretical perspective.I'll take what I can get. :D
What I think is an intersting topic (when talking about the Rings of power) is wether it was a mistake by Sauron to forge the One Ring.I wouldn't say mistake, but definetly a miscalculation on Saurons part. Putting a large part of his power into the Ring was a risk that he willingly took to master the Elves. Tolkien makes that clear, as I also quoted a while ago (http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30753.msg396721.html#msg396721).
Sauron's purpose was not at all – apart from having the chance to control the Elves' and the other races' minds – achieving even more direct personal power, being himself already at the apex, as a Maia in Middle Earth with no restrain on his capabilities.I'm really sorry Val, but I have to vehemently disagree with that.
His true purpose was exactly tying his essence/Will/powers to a material dimension, so that he would have avoided the ineluctable dispersion of his powers had he been defeated by any means, especially in case he had had his own body destroyed (as it exactly happened in Númenor).
Therefore, we could say that he had kind of foreseen what could have happened and exactly happened later in Númenor;
for his [Saurons] desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.
Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency;
Seeing the desolation of the world, Sauron said in his heart that the Valar, having overthrown Morgoth, had again forgotten Middle-earth; and his pride grew apace. He looked with hatred on the Eldar, and he feared the Men of Númenor who came back at whiles in their ships to the shores of Middle-earth; but for long he dissembled his mind and concealed the dark designs that he shaped in his heart.After the Destruction of Beleriand Sauron stayed behind and resented the Valar for not actively doing more/anything in Middle-earth (contrary to, you know, Morgoth). So he grew prideful and made up his own designs for the world. In other words: He wanted to surpass the Valar and Morgoth by improving Middle-earth himself. Strictly according to his plans, under his strict lordship of course.
Yes, Sauron is just smart xDYou know how hard it is to argue that? Because I don't really want to deny that in general. Of course Sauron was mighty, cunning, dangerous, cruel, subtle, crafty, and many other things. And after all, Sauron conquered more lands of Middle-earth than Morgoth ever tried.
"I thought then, and I am sure now, that to attack Lórien and Rivendell, as soon as he was strong enough was his original plan. It would have been a much better plan for him, and much worse for us."
Aragorn who basically just said "Come at me bro"xD xD xD
What would have been Sauron's course of action had he regained the ring? (let's say Gollum danced around a little bit more and Frodo tripped into the lava meaning the Nazguls made it back in time to Mount. Doom to cease the ring)
"The rabble of Gondor and its deluded allies shall withdraw at once beyond the Anduin, first taking oaths never again to assail Sauron the Great in arms, open or secret. All lands east of the Anduin shall be Sauron's for ever, solely. West of the Anduin as far as the Misty Mountains and the Gap of Rohan shall be tributary to Mordor, and men there shall bear no weapons, but shall have leave to govern their own affairs. But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust."
Looking in the Messenger’s eyes they read his thought. He was to be that lieutenant, and gather all that remained of the West under his sway; he would be their tyrant and they his slaves.
Just as a general question, do you believe the dwarves of Khazad-Dum when they claim that their ring was not given to them by Sauron, but by Celebrimbor in friendship? I personally doubt it.As far as I remember, there were different quotes on that, some saying they got the ring from the elves, others that Sauron gave it to them. Though I don't remember exactly which position comes from which book.
Speaking of the Golden Wood, in the War of the Ring, Sauron's armies attacked Lothlórien three times. Why? What was the plan here? Seeing the Galadhrim's defences as inpenetrable, Sauron should have used the forces he spent on the second and third attack elsewhere. Maybe he could have defeated Thranduil's Woodland Realm with the additional Orcs or could have launched a surprise attack against Rohan (if his army could avoid the Ents).
Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.J.R.R. Tolkien – The Fellowship of the Ring, The Mirror of Galadriel
‘Yes,’ she said, divining his thought, ‘it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lórien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.
‘He suspects, but he does not know – not yet.
I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!’J.R.R. Tolkien – The Fellowship of the Ring, The Mirror of Galadriel
Yes Walk, i know that it's not mod dedicated section, but i don't want to make standalone thread just for my considering about this matter, and i think that it can be foundations for just one more discussion about lore. ;)
Because i know that you like move posts from one threads to another, when there's any reference to other matter than thread. :D
You only rewritten dry facts that are known, lets use brains for a moment. xD
Do you think that was actual any attack of these beasts around Edoras? And when Eomer returned with his man, there was a battle? Or it was just a hunt for few individuals? How many could there be? It's new race bred by Sauron in third age to grow fear in hearts of enemies? Or it's leftovers from the first age? In our pop culture werewolves are immortal, are Tolkien's beasts immortal too?
Just speak your opinion, not only well known facts. xD
It is very likely that immense packs of these creatures were massively used in the War of Wrath against the Host of Valinor, along with every other kind of foul monsters that the Evil managed to summon.
Therefore, this leads us to think that the Werewolves were almost totally exterminated by the end of the First Age, and that their weaker descendants endure as solitary threats in wild lands; unless, obviously, they were bred and used with precise purposes and with evil intentions, as it exactly happened during the War of the Ring or other great conflicts.
That's my theory about this race. I think that's consistent with Tolkien's lore, [...]
[Gandalf:]"[...] Not all his [Saurons] servants and chattels are wraiths! There are orcs and trolls, there are wargs and werewolves; and there have been and still are many Men, [...]"
Therefore an army was sent against him under the command of Sauron; and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies.
The word Warg used in The Hobbit and the L.R. for an evil breed of (demonic) wolves [...] the noun common to the Northmen of these creatures.
There dismay took them, for at the gate was a guard of whom no tidings had yet gone forth. Rumour of he knew not what designs abroad among the princes of the Elves had come to Morgoth, and ever down the aisles of the forest was heard the baying of Huan, the great hound of war, whom long ago the Valar unleashed. Then Morgoth recalled the doom of Huan, and he chose one from among the whelps of the race of Draugluin; and he fed him with his own hand upon living flesh, and put his power upon him. Swiftly the wolf grew, until he could creep into no den, but lay huge and hungry before the feet of Morgoth. There the fire and anguish of hell entered into him, and he became filled with a devouring spirit, tormented, terrible, and strong. Carcharoth, the Red Maw, he is named in the tales of those days, and Anfauglir, the Jaws of Thirst. And Morgoth set him to lie unsleeping before the doors of Angband, lest Huan come.J.R.R. Tolkien – The Silmarillion, Of Beren and Lúthien
Then the Eagles of the Lords of the West came up out of the dayfall, and they were arrayed as for battle, advancing in a line the end of which diminished beyond sight; and as they came their wings spread ever wider, grasping the sky. But the West burned red behind them, and they glowed beneath, as though they were lit with a flame of great anger, so that all Númenor was illumined as with a smouldering fire; and men looked upon the faces of their fellows, and it seemed to them that they were red with wrath.J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion, Akallabêth
Then Manwë upon the Mountain called upon Ilúvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda.J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion, Akallabêth
In rode the Lord of the Nazguˆl. A great black shape againstJ.R.R. Tolkien - The Return of the King, The Siege of Gondor
the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of
despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazguˆl, under the archway
that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his
face.
All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space
before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax
who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the
terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dı´nen.
‘You cannot enter here,’ said Gandalf, and the huge
shadow halted. ‘Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go
back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your
Master. Go!’
The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had
a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The
red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and
dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.
‘Old fool!’ he said. ‘Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not
know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!’
And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down
the blade.
Gandalf did not move. And in that very moment, away
behind in some courtyard of the City, a cock crowed. Shrill
and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war,
welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the
shadows of death was coming with the dawn.
And as if in answer there came from far away another note.
Horns, horns, horns. In dark Mindolluin’s sides they dimly
echoed. Great horns of the North wildly blowing. Rohan had
come at last.
Val is probably preparing another praising of the Vala. xD
I probably should have provided quotes to back my claim of the Witchkings power (at least I'm pretty sure that I had read about it), but unfortunately I don't have my sources with me right now... ^^You are mistaken, my dear Adamin, since I'm still here. ;) Apart from the obvious displays of magical powers (breaking Frodo's sword at the Fords of Bruinen, enhancing Grond / weakening the gate), his terrific presence when acting as the revealed Dark Marshall (or whatever his title is in english) which makes it practically impossible for weak (and even many mediocre strong) minded to face him, Denethor remarks that the Witchking is finally someone equal to the White Rider. Gandalf does not deny this statement, also after Gandalf scared away the Nazgûl attacking Faramir it is written, that the Dark Marshall hadn't arrived yet to oppose this new foe. So while I agree BTW that the battle is won a little to easily by the Witchking in the movie (still better, then undead-drowned Galadriel in an over the top videogame-mind-battle against Sauron...), the two are certainly equal.
So they both appeared very competent in that situation. Gandalf is a mighty wizard and Maiar of course, but the Witchking is described as drawing power out of the terror and fear around him. And during the siege of Minas Tirith the whole city was full of terror.I have to object to some points: First and most importantly, Gandalf is of course technically a Maiar, but (even as Gandalf the White) still restricted. Yes, some of his powers are revealed once in a while, but it's still nothing like a full Maia with the ability to shapeshift. Therefore I would everytimes speak only of Istari if it comes to these wizards and basically use this "power-category" as a third, next to Valar and Maiar, which is further authorized by the huge emphasis in the LotR.
I'm not sure, if this destroys his spirit or just the old manI'm pretty sure it would just destroy his physical body. As you yourself refered to Sarumans death, there it is described that his body fell apart, but there was something rising up from it and getting blown away (rejected) from the West.
The effects the One Ring has is directly proportional to how much magical ability (or how mighty) someone was to begin with. So for people such as Isildur, Bilbo, and Frodo, it only grants invisibility, having no magical power of their own. On the other hand, the One, when wielded (or theoretically wielded) by mighty beings such as Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond, Saruman, or Sauron, has a multiplying effect on their power.Interesting. Still, I don't think Sauron would intentionally want the One Ring to give invincibility. Even though he is not a great warrior, I think the power he would get from the One Ring would make him strong enough to win against pretty much anyone. I would imagine there would be a very small amount of people that could defeat Sauron once he has the One Ring(or, at least, that is what he would think before Isildur defeated him).
However, its never said whether its said if he wanted it to provide invisibility. However, this One Ring, the Master Ring, was meant to be the greatest of them all (obviously that failed; the One does not have the same powers as say the 3, for example). And some of the lesser 'trial' rings granted invisibility. So I would not be surprised at all if it had Invisibility built into it from the beginning.
As for what purpose the invisibility could serve? Sauron, mastermind though he is, has a track record of actually losing his confrontations when on the battlefield himself. He is master tactician, administrator and manipulator, not a warrior. So if invisibility was built into the ring back when he could be fair, it could also serve as a way of him escaping defeat.
Sauron loses the Ring because he gets cocky off his victory over the 2 High-Kings, personally. He's not expecting Isildur or anyone being able to defeat him at this point. That's why he goes to 'humiliate' his enemies in killing Isildur by choking, to serve as an example of his power. However, I personally believe that even if Isildur failed to get the ring off him, he still would have lost to the Alliance.
And also, the Ring's ability to grant invisibility could also be used for manipulative reasons (this of course, back when he was still fair). He could walk among his enemies and whisper in their ears, spread doubt and suspicion, his enemies believing his voice is their own worries.
So my question is not why does it make you invisible, but actually, Did Sauron want the One Ring to do that? If so, why? What purpose does that serve?
So if invisibility was built into the ring back when he could be fair, it could also serve as a way of him escaping defeat.Back when he was fair, means also back when he could take any form he wanted. Why should he Need to turn invisible then in order to flee, when he just as well Change his form into something unnoticeable, or maybe completely leave his Body behind?
Sauron loses the Ring because he gets cocky off his victory over the 2 High-Kings, personally. He's not expecting Isildur or anyone being able to defeat him at this point. That's why he goes to 'humiliate' his enemies in killing Isildur by choking, to serve as an example of his power.Nope.
ZitatSo if invisibility was built into the ring back when he could be fair, it could also serve as a way of him escaping defeat.Back when he was fair, means also back when he could take any form he wanted. Why should he Need to turn invisible then in order to flee, when he just as well Change his form into something unnoticeable, or maybe completely leave his Body behind?
(though I'm not 100 % sure if Sauron could have leaft his Body...)
ZitatSauron loses the Ring because he gets cocky off his victory over the 2 High-Kings, personally. He's not expecting Isildur or anyone being able to defeat him at this point. That's why he goes to 'humiliate' his enemies in killing Isildur by choking, to serve as an example of his power.Nope.
Just in the movie version.
In the book Sauron lost in an epic brawl against Gil-Galad AND Elendil AND Elrond AND Cirdan AND Isildur, all at once. Sauron was already lying defeated on the ground (after killing Gil-Galad and Elendil) when Isildur stepped up and cut the One Ring off his finger.
i was of the belief that, from reading the books, the invisibility came as a result of the Rings of Power dominating their bearers. that would explain why the Dwarves never turned invisible (because they were hardier), and why the Elven Rings never turned their bearers invisible, since they were not made by Sauron and not designed for dominating others. that is why Tom Bombadil didn't turn invisible when he put on the Ring.
I'm new in this corner but i don't have too few knowledge about the lotr universe :)
So this is okay with the lore :) after all i though, the goblins and Orcs have wargs, that are big wolves then big goats are well fitting in the middle earth lore :)
In what colour does Orcrist and Glamdring glow ?
This legendary property was always considered as pure Elven Magic by the other races (a bit envious, probably), but more precisely – apart from the extremely wide connotations that Magic can have in the Tolkien's Legendarium – this property was 'just' the external manifestation in the physical world of the Elves' unknown Art/Craftsmanship; a prerogative that the other races could have never replicated :)Well, this certainly doesn't contradict this interpretation, but if I am not mistaken, the swords are essentially a sort of sentinent being in that they can feel the presence the impure presence of orcish scum, so to speak. I'm pretty sure when they find Glamdring and Sting in the troll hoard, it says that the blades shine angrily when in the presence of orcs. Hope I'm not mistaken, and yes this doesn't really relate to the original question. ;)
By the way, hilarious smiles shouldn't be your main concern as you tried to slay the Silmarillion once, and I will never forget this :DWell, I'm literally "THE Evil" practically inventing it in the first place. That's what I do. :P
But ever the shadow in Mirkwood grew deeper, and to Dol Guldur evil things repaired out of all the dark places of the world; and they were united again under one will, and their malice was directed against the Elves and the survivors of Númenor. Therefore at last the Council was again summoned and the lore of the Rings was much debated; but Mithrandir spoke to the Council, saying:J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
‘It is not needed that the Ring should be found, for while it abides on earth and is not unmade, still the power that it holds will live, and Sauron will grow and have hope. The might of the Elves and the Elf-friends is less now than of old. Soon he will be too strong for you, even without the Great Ring; for he rules the Nine, and of the Seven he has recovered three. We must strike.'
I was wondering because Elrond is last living member of the house of Fingolfin and a direct descendant of Elu Thingol so does he have a claim on the High Kingship of the elves of middle earth being both the last descendant of the high king of the noldor and of the high king of the teleri? how does elven succession work? and what does it mean in the over all picture?
This information can perhaps be used by the community to propose a new idea for a possible sub-faction; perhaps an Anduin subfaction for Lothlorien, which contains both the Men of the Anduin and these Stoor Hobbits?
The moment they decided to deal with Angmar in that way, they did so because the particular context of the faction permitted them to do so; in that sense, they were also forced to rely on fictional material, and I don't absolutely deem this fact negative (taking into account those precise boundaries). Their choice was thus completely justified. Yet factions like Mordor, Gondor or Lothlórien are a very different case: I don't think there is a possible ground to make reasonable comparisons with Angmar then. Angmar's premises can't be applied to Lórien. It's plainly comprehensible.
Regarding the cinematographic atmosphere that the game should preserve, your solution is a quite non-sequitur statement, as its logical deductions aren't very much coherent, in my personal view. The cinematographic issue is an issue because we can't dispose of cinematographic transpositions from LOTR (or from the Hobbit) of those characters in the first place. They're not present in the films. So, thinking to solve the dilemma via opting for a resemblance to the films' portrait doesn't resolve it indeed, because those or other choices would nonetheless be fictional anyway; a person's interpretation based on a person's own thoughts. In light of these considerations, I think this issue just can't be dealt with properly, if not opting for the 'Angmar-way'.
Nevertheless, since I'm always keen on reading new proposals, I'm really looking forward to that. Good luck with it :)
Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day.- Gandalf
Some of these caves, too, go back in their beginnings to ages before the goblins, who only widened them and joined them up with passages, and the original owners are still in odd corners, slinking and nosing about.- The Hobbit
Your coming to us is as the footsteps of doom. You bring great evil here[...]
So the days slipped away, as each morning dawned bright and fair, and each evening followed cool and clear. But autumn was waning fast; slowly the golden light faded to pale silver, and the lingering leaves fell from the naked trees. A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east. The Hunter's Moon waxed round in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.I was curious about the red star. One theory online about it was that it was a representation of Mars, the Bringer of War. However, are there any other explanations for what it is?
Hopefully, I triggered a least a couple of you which should lead to an interesting debate, all under the watchful eye of the great moderator that lives on this forum, an elf-admin, of terrible power.
- Could Radagast have made a big difference? I guess he could've slowed Sauron down but I doubt he would've lasted long.I doubt, he'd have achieved anything. Radagast failed at his mission in his own way (basically stopped caring about the fate of Middle Earth and turned to animals or the wild), thus since even Gandalf the White is inferior to Sauron with the One, what match is Radagast to the power of Mordor?
- What would Sauron have done with the fortresses he took (Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth, Erebor, Helm's Deep, Rivendell, Mithlond)?I'm not sure if this applies to everyone of those places, but why not expand your base of operation? ;) In general, Sauron turned out to be pretty practical, and these fortresses often control their general vicinity: Minas Tirith basically controls the mid-point of the Anduin (considering he has access to Minas Morgul, Osgiliath and Cair Andros), Dol Amroth controls the fiefdoms of Gondor as well as giving him total control over the lower-part of the Anduin (again considering he has Umbar) AS WELL as grating him another entry point into Gondor (besides Cair Andros & Osgiliath).
Henceforth, as you can see, Melkor (dear attendee of this forum), there is something we agree on. This is something that ought to be celebrated xDRun! Everybody run! The end of the world is approaching! :D
I think Necro has a good idea of what would happen (it's almost as if he's planned this conquest before). A couple of questions:
- Could Radagast have made a big difference? I guess he could've slowed Sauron down but I doubt he would've lasted long.
- What would Sauron do about any elves and dwarves living in the east of Middle Earth?
- What would Sauron have done with the fortresses he took (Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth, Erebor, Helm's Deep, Rivendell, Mithlond)? I'd imagine that most of Rohan would be burned down since they mainly have wooden buildings (from the film anyway) as well as Caras Galadhon. Isengard would be given the Mouth of Sauron. Would Sauron try to corrupt the rest (in a similar way to Minas Ithil, Cirith Ungol and the Black Gate) or would he try to destroy any trace of them?
I think Necro has a good idea of what would happen (it's almost as if he's planned this conquest before).I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired th... I mean what, what now?
There is also Glorfindel. In the First Age , he was able to fight off a balrog and hold off Morgoth's armies long enough for Gondolin's survivors to escape. In the Third age, he frightened the Witch King just by being there and then sent the Nazgul fleeing into Elrond's flood. How much damage do you think he could've done to Sauron's forces? Would he have sacrificed himself to let the others escape Middle Earth?Well, that is taken a lot out of context: First of all, eventhough it isn't impossible, be don't know for certain if Glorfindel = Glorfindel. That obviously only affects him dealing with a balrog, but still -that effects him dealing with a balrog. xD And in my version of the story (The Book of Lost Tales), he did only fight the balrog not him and Angband's forces. That's a difference.
How do you think he would've treated the Evil Men that fought for him? In the First Age, Morgoth just mistreated any Easterlings who followed him. Do you think Sauron would've done the same?I think, Sauron's relation to the easterlings is quite different from Morgoth's. The latter used them exclusively as a tool to win the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and then had no use for them anymore. Giving them nothing for it was just him being the devil of Arda.
I'd be interesting to know whether or not once the war is over whether or not Sauron would have followed a path similar to this world's technological advancements. Eventually discovering things like electricity, nuclear power, ...I think, I just realized something... Something very grave... Considering Tolkien plans his world to eventually become ours... Since we have all of this, I'm afraid but Sauron won as you can clearly deduce from our surroundings. Well... I guess, you're our true leader now, Necro. :P
Also, when talking about the Nine, it's important to grasp the concept of how much of their strength is revealed. That's especially important for their leader; he wasn't yet allowed to show his true power to the West. (No idea, why, btw. I mean, he was chasing the One Ring! )This is interesting now I think about it. Sauron wanted the Nazgul to be secretive to hid their true purpose and avoid outside intervention. However, what would have happened if the Nazgul had been able to show their true power when searching for the One Ring? I'd imagine that there would be a much bigger struggle in the North with the Dunedain and any elves that were sent from Rivendell. Maybe the Nazgul would've rallied the orcs of the Misty Mountains, the Barrow Wights and any other evil creatures they could find. It would've been interesting to see this although I doubt it would've ever happened.
Speaking about the renowned journey to the West, I thought about another related topic to discuss: in your opinion, was Radagast the Brown eventually granted the pardon of the Valar and so the permission to come back to the Blessed Realm?
I've always known that the wizard had begun in time to forget about his mission, busy with the company of animals and secluded from the outer world, at the point of failing to achieve the task he was originally appointed to. It's therefore very logical to suppose that he was subsequently forbidden to pass across the sea and to have his full powers as Maia back. But all of this is what I could find on the matter so far, and I don't personally remember if Tolkien has left some kind of revealing hints about it.
I sincerely believe (I like to believe), that Radagast was finally allowed among the people of Aman, in the end. Never has he been author of evil mischief during his entire permanence in Middle-earth; it's quite the other way round, as he did contribute to help the Good via minor acts, yet significant (he sent the Eagles to Isengard and in front of the Black Gate too). It might be legitimate to speculate that, at an unspecified moment during the Fourth Age, the Istar may have taken the route to the Undying Lands through the only two possible ways at his disposal: either aboard a ship or going across the horizon on an Eagle. In both cases, he would have surely deserved such a merry ending.
in your opinion, was Radagast the Brown eventually granted the pardon of the Valar and so the permission to come back to the Blessed Realm?
They are sent to Mandos, where they are healed and granted a new physical body and if they wish can return to Valinor and reunite with their kin. So the Elves do not depart the world upon their death. This is specifically defined as the Destiny of Men, so this is an important uniqueness between the two.
You don't have limitless time and the story does not change without Tom Bombadil. Also it will get really irritating for the viewers, if a new character gets introduced (like Tom or Glorfindel), but they are never shown again after 5 minutes.