Modding Union
[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] General Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: The_Necromancer0 am 12. Dez 2015, 11:57
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This is just an idea that has gone through my brain and that I just couldn't shake off.
Idea 1
Now, I believe, and I think other people do, that it is logical that the Witch King would bring the Ring back to his master and not take it as his own. There is nothing wrong with having the ring hero being the Witch King but I had an idea. I was thinking that instead the ring would have to be brought back to the castle (like in vanilla) as a symbol from bringing it back to Sauron. In return this would boost all heroes, giving them new/reinforced abilities If I remember correctly there was a Tier 4 power like that in 3.8.1 where you would pick a fortress to become the "true" fortress of angmar. The boost would have to be just right so that it would compensate for the fact that you don't have to bring the ring to the front but yet still receive it's bonus.
If this is not possible due to game engine, I suggest that instead the ring be given to the Witch King but that he still technically brings it back to his master (omg that just gave me another idea) and then refer to the paragraph above.
Idea 2
Referring to the lore I exposed in Idea 1 and the last paragraph. I was thinking that the ring hero could also use the system of the veteran of Khazad-dûm. Once the ring given to the WK he set on a path to give it back to his master (on his fell beast?), after X minutes he returns with his full strength (optional: and a mighty host of Mordor). The ring would still drop from WK if he is killed to make it simpler but it would technically be in the hands of Sauron. This would just lead to WK being the ring hero but be more lore accurate and more unique (ring hero wize, cause the system is already in place for dwarves units).
Anyways those are two ideas that I have for the Angmar Ring Hero, might be impossible, migth be that the team has a better idea. I'm just putting it here cause it's been spinning in my head for a week. If people like that idea we can dvelop together the various effects of both ideas. I just hope that either one of those ideas is possible.
Can't wait to hear from you guys!! xD
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I like these ideas :D.
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I just thought of another one :P. (a 3rd idea )
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Maybe if the Witchking gives the ring to Sauron, something similar to the southern fiefdoms' system happens?
Maybe since Sauron is so much more powerful now, every 1-3 minutes he sends 2 battalions of orc warriors, and a troll that has all its upgrades (though, you still need buy its weapon)
To aid Angmar in their conquests.
This is to show Sauron trying to speed up the downfall of arnor since he's much more powerful (Or rohan,gondor any good factions :P.
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In this case it would have to be a lot of Orcs or elite units in general like cirith ungol orcs, since they cost no command points and are pretty strong. It's a great idea but my opinion is that it defeats the purpose of having a Ring Hero since it is nothing more then units, but good idea nonehteless.
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I actually like the first idea better. It doesn't make sense for me that even if the Witch-king has brought the Ring to his master, when killed he would drop it. How many One Rings do exist? xD
On the other hand, the first idea is more appropriate to me, because a skilled general as the Witch-king would not risk the defeat at any cost, even if it is the One Ring. In his might and arrogance he would simply keep it safe in the fortress until his enemies are destroyed, and of course receiving benefits from his master through the Ring (kinda an help from the distance xD), then he can return the Ring to his master and estabilish his reign of terror
So, I definitely prefer the first idea^^
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I also had the feeling that the Witch-King wielding the Ring is not very logical as the Nazgul are subjected to Sauron through each of the Nine Rings that were forged for Men.
In this line of thought none of the Nazgul could possibly think of using the Ring for himself.
Therefore, I like the first idea better, although it plays with the game element of the ring remaining inside a possibly heavily fortified camp/fortress. This is unfair in comparison to other factions.
A way to solve this would indeed giving the One Ring to the Witch-King, after which he will fulfill a carrier role. After all, would the Witch-King part with the Ring once he holds it? Would he flee the land to deliver it to Sauron, with the high possibility of Angmar falling (prematurely) to the might of the descendants of Númenor?
No.
The Witch-King would carry the Ring not as being its master but much more like Frodo (and Sam briefly) held it. Frodo was able to dominate Gollum because he wielded the Ring, and Sam felt his own power grow when entering the Cirith Ungol tower.
Keeping this difference in mind between carrying and wielding the Ring, I would propose that the Witch-King uses the Ring temporarily to reach victory faster.
In-game he gets a second palantír that contains certain 'leaderschip' abilities or buffs towards particular units. This would be comparable to the types of leaderships Imrahil or Araphant has.
One buff would concern all friendly heroes on the map, one all elite units (Men of Carn Dûm), one all standard units (orcs, thralls and hillmen), and one all buildings and siege machines (invulnerability because frozen, increased building speed, decreased building costs).
I haven't yet thought about the cost of these abilities. It would be too easy to decrease the Witch-King's damage and armour because it cannot be explained by canon-lore. However, I do feel that he should in some way become restless over time because he feels that he's withholding the Ring from its true master.
What do you guys think about this?
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I really like this, it is an actually lore accurate and balanced take on the ring-hero concept. I would like that add that since he "carries it" his ability get a slight boost (similar to might of the silver one) his abilities becoming more powerful/recharging faster/changing effect. This could also satisfy the need for a new hero because let's admit it, we still want to give him the ring and be like: "awww yisss, wonder what this ability does." Once the WK has be revealed to us we can actually start working on the detail but so far I really like the idea. Well done on spotting the difference between wielding the ring and carrying it.
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I approve of idea #1 and Garlodur's interpretation. This really makes sense and seems according to lore, as the Witch-King would indeed be more of a carrier of the Ring rather than dare to use it, as I don't think Sauron would take it well.
As for the abilities, I agree on the leadership bonus, the frozen buildings and eventual unit buffs, everything goes according to characters and lore. I do hope Edain considers this.
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I just read some of moddb stuff, and I noticed that Mornamarth could be also good choice for ring hero.
ET created background story for Mornamarth, and he has that lust of power, so WK was careful of him (WK gave him limited power becuse of he craved for power). Maybe ring sistem could be used somehow on Mornamarth as hero who crave for power?
I think that his personality from that invented background story also fits in this, simply he is eager to gain more and more power.
Regard,
CragLord
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Following your train of thought, Mornamarth would betray the witch king and cease the ring for himself? Uhmm... that sounds pretty cools and pretty original not to have the strongest/most iconic hero of the faction as ring hero.
Couple thoughts on this:
-adding to the lore maybe Mornamarth would have to pick the ring unlike other heroes that have to have it brought to them, since it is most logical that other troops would bring it to the WK
-what happens to the witch king? does he become a bound lesser form of himself? does he die? does he become in exile? does he go back to his master with the plan to return with a mighty host to kill Mornamarth?
-how does that affect Mornamarth, will it end up destroying him like the Boromir? what effect does it have on its abilities, boosts them or changes them completely?
-and finally: why not both? (like gondor)
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-adding to the lore maybe Mornamarth would have to pick the ring unlike other heroes that have to have it brought to them, since it is most logical that other troops would bring it to the WK
How about if any of Mornamarths Units (Dark Dunedain(?)) pick up the ring they can bring it to Mornamarth. It would be a bit easier than if Mornamarth is the only person who is able to pick it up if you wanna have ring-Mornamarth. And it would be lore-friendly.
Greetings,
Gimleux
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Following your train of thought, Mornamarth would betray the witch king and cease the ring for himself? Uhmm... that sounds pretty cools and pretty original not to have the strongest/most iconic hero of the faction as ring hero.
Couple thoughts on this:
-adding to the lore maybe Mornamarth would have to pick the ring unlike other heroes that have to have it brought to them, since it is most logical that other troops would bring it to the WK
-what happens to the witch king? does he become a bound lesser form of himself? does he die? does he become in exile? does he go back to his master with the plan to return with a mighty host to kill Mornamarth?
-how does that affect Mornamarth, will it end up destroying him like the Boromir? what effect does it have on its abilities, boosts them or changes them completely?
-and finally: why not both? (like gondor)
Yes, I agree with you, there is a lot of possibilites.
My simple thought require complete concept, sadly, I am out of time to develop it.
I just wanted to point on possibility of using this hero also in ring function.
I think if he gets ring, he will become more powerful then WK and replace his as ruler of the Angmar. Jump from Steward title to the title of Black/Fallen Dunedain's King. :) Something like that.
Also we could make him similar to Boromir, to be temporary there, and when he dies, he became one of the wights, or wights hero with ring etc.
There are many possibilities as you also cited in your comment. This concept with Mornamarth require some detailed development.
I am also to add him beside WK, so both of them can use ring, something similar to the Gondor faction. :)
Regards,
CragLord
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Or... ring could be brought to castle and player may recruit some form of sauron, based on the principles like gondor's denethor or arnor's malbeth?
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Or... ring could be brought to castle and player may recruit some form of sauron, based on the principles like gondor's denethor or arnor's malbeth?
I see, that could also be interesting to use Sauron from afar, using mighty abilities of magic and leadership to influence the field. I really see how it would fit in the lore though.
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This is a tricky concept.
While I personally don't like the idea of Mornamath as a Ring Hero (betraying the Witch King?! You bastard!!) I agree it would make the machanism, and the history behind it, all the more interesting and complex. I would say make him the alternate Ring Hero of the faction, keeping the Witch king as main, in parallel with Gondor/Arnor having Gandalf/Boromir or Gandalf/Arvendui; a parallel that makes sense given they kinda all derive from Numenor.
I agree that Mornamath should be the one picking it himself, but like all other Men who picked the Ring (Boromir, Arvendui, Theoden) it should boost his stats, but it also has to have an array of negative outcomes. This counts especially for the fact that the Witch King is present as well on the field, and I doubt he would take kindly to this betrayal.
Such a mecanic would literally split the Angmar faction, as Mornamath is the leader of the Black Numenoreans, but the real emperor of the whole realm is the Witch King. I daresay that, if Mornamath takes the Ring, he gains a great boost, but like Storm Queen Galadriel, his actions make him a traitor, so units that are not black numenoreans would not help him. I would even say he needs to have a time limit like Boromir, but this time set by the Witch King cursing him.
Overall, i'd say this is a pretty massive thing to make, perhaps not worth all the work that goes behind it.
On the other hand, a Denethor/Malbeth mechanic for the other Ring Hero, the Witch King, might work. Perhaps, once he gains the Ring, he retires to his fortress's sanctum, bestowing powers and terrible magics on the battlefield.
If you think about it, except for the time Glorfindel and Earnur faced him, it's not like the Witch King actually took to the battlefield that often, more dwelling in his fortress and working his sorcery. Granted, Sauron did that far more, but meh...
From the Fortress, he could cast the infamous Everlasting Winter, send out foul spirits to infest a set area of the map (like he did with Barrow Wights), put his blessing on heroes (the old sanctuary of the Witch King power) and even challenge enemy heroes, tricking them to come to him alone (as he did with Earnur, even if that was in Minas Morgul)
This would kinda be a loss, as I love the Witch King to get to the battlefield and make things personal, but nonetheless it's an alternative.
These are just my humble thoughts, dunno what the team has planned, but am looking forward to it, as always! [uglybunti]
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I actually prefer those choices a lot more for the good guys. The main reason is that there exists a big amout of force and direct ruling for the evil factions. Therefore they tend to have a distinct leader or at least someone truly superior to the others in charge (let's call him Smaug). For Angmar it's kind of the same: If I play as the Iron Crown and get my hands at the One Ring, I will certainly prefer to curse the game with eternal winter instead of giving it to "regular human general No. 3". :P
For the good factions this topic is entirely different (exept perhaps for Lothlorien), because there are multiple heroes who could all act as a ringbearer simply from their lore perspective. (One could even argue there are some more people who could also use the One Ring.) To sum up, I don't see how Angmar needs a new system or an enhanced system. Giving the Ring to the Witchking is interesting enough as it is in my humble opinion.
Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
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I agree that giving it to the Witch King is a fitting option but is it lore accurate? Even though there is very little on Angmar a faction that the Team created for the most parts they are still trying to link it with the rest of the Middle-Earth lore. In addition, I agree with Spacetyrant93 that Mornamath could be a possible ring hero (although it would feel to some like a Boromir/Arvedui ripoff) the Team itself mentioned it in their news about him
The Witch-king knows well that while Mornamarth is a great asset, he is not truly loyal to anyone and is best kept on a short leash. For his part, Mornamarth burns to rule Angmar himself one day, but for now he bides his time and builds his power by destroying Angmar's enemies.
To me that a Barad-Dur sized sign saying "I'M A RING HERO" or at least that he is ring hero material. But I can't wait to see what the team has cooked up.
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A ring hero he could very well be, but his ascension to power would mean an absoloute coup-d'etat, a fragmentation of an already didived kingdom that only the iron grip of its undead ruler managed to keep together, and said ruler would be definetly less than happy, hence why Mornamath would be time-restricted: no way you can back-stab the WK and expect to survive (unless you're a Hobbit)
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I'll add some of my thoughts, if I may.
The Witch-King does not have a real will of his own. His will is bound to that of Sauron and the Ring. The idea that the WK can wield the ring is beyond absurd, in my opinion. He is also not drawn to the ring, because he is already enslaved by its master, which made it so that he would immediately bring the ring to him and that the ring does not have any corruptive powers over him. The only thing the WK can do, is enact the will of his master and everything within those contours.
I think giving the ring to the other heroes somewhere makes more sense to me. All of Angmar's heroes consist of human beings, there are many possible what-if scenarios with the Ring of Power.
Now, if we look at the currently made proposals, they all have some difficult implications. If we were to find a middle ground between them all, like where the Witch King either places the ring into a fortress, some kind Altar to Sauron outpost, or uses an Angmar hero as a vassal to carry the ring for the time being, I think would we able to do something unique.
@Spacetyrant93
Two things to note:
1. The majority of the Men of Carn-Dûm are not Black Numenoreans. Their origin is speculative, but just like the Hill-men that were corrupted, it is speculated that they are descended from Ulfang and his Easterling remnants from the 1st Age that crossed into Beleriand. Of course, some Arnorians decided to side with The Witch-King, if I am not mistaken, so you are not completely mistaken.
2. If you read the lore that ET gave to Mornamarth, they actually state that the Witch-King is aware that Mornamarth desires to rule Carn-Dûm himself one day. He wishes to overthrow his superior due to his lust for power, but he obeys him for the time being, because he does not possess enough strength.
Greetings.
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@Odysseus
Being Ring Heroes a very speculative subject, it's mostly a matter of gameplay. I mean, some heroes that are now Ring Heroes never even saw it, like Arvendui and Theoden (technically not even Saruman, even if he did want it), others had the most disgust of it (like Elrond, IF he still is a RH) other yet make even less sense like Durin and Smaug. Lore helps here, with Durin's reincarnations and Smaug's 'dragon sickness', but in the whole, they all receive the Ring from a 'what if' perspective, that is subjected to the need of having a Ring Hero available (if you want the Ring to be in the game, that is). I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but only a 'gameplay requirement' let's say.
So this would somehow 'justify' a Ring Hero Witch King, also because this version of Angmar implies that WK might not have a true will of his own, but certainly a good level of independent thought and judgement, else he wouldn't have been able to build his kingdom. That and he didn't really look for the Ring yet, as opposed to what Sauron might have preferred, or at least I think so. Let's just say Sauron worked on a good AI :P
But in the end, I somehow agree that the WK would immediately take the Ring back to tha boss. Well it has been suggested (and supported) that the Ring in brought to the Fortress..what happens next isn't yet fully clear, but having Sauron manifested in some way seems what could actually occur...even if technically this would go back to the vanilla game, what with Sauron re-obtaining the Ring at all. Actually, thinking about it, it wouldn't be so absurd a setting for Angmar...
On the notes:
1. Well I used to refer to them that way, my bad. Never thought much about it, sorry. About traitorious Arnorians I have no idea.
2.I did, and that's why he screamed 'Ring Hero'. Still,I think the Witch King would not react well to his betrayal, as he might have anticipated it, but he surely did not anticipate him finding the One. Treason is treason.