Modding Union

[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Imladris Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: VectorMaximus am 15. Feb 2016, 23:19

Titel: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 15. Feb 2016, 23:19
Hello Edain community! Today I'm hoping we can have a nice discussion on what to do about Imladris' siege engines/mechanic. A few months ago there was a fairly large discussion on Moddb about it, with the general consensus being that the Lightbringers (3.8 siege 'wizards', for those who don't know) aren't consistent with the lore and that Imladris could probably do with a new siege.

So, I though to put it to a poll, to see what the general consensus on here is. These are the general options I feel are realistically possible. :D

Option 1: Keep the Lightbringers. Exactly what it says, we keep the lightbringers as the siege, lore issues and all. Some people thought of them as the most iconic and  different part of the 3.8.1 faction, so its not outside of the realm of possibility that they remain the siege if there is enough support for them.

Option 2: Develop a uniquely elven siege engine. We design a new siege engine to match thematically with the Imladris faction, that would function the same as the siege for any other faction. I personally have no thoughts of a siege design that would look suitably Elven, but I'm interested to see if anyone has any ideas, because this seems the simplest solution to the problem.

Option 3: Unit Upgrades. Essentially give the Imladris melee units the ability to upgrade to have increased damage to structures. These would function essentially the same as the Dwarven Siege hammers, but would apply to all melee units. Imladris is already planned as a Infantry-Heavy faction, so this could work well with their play style.

Option 4: Put the siege engines in with the Dunedain. The Dunedain Camp on the settlement is designed to help supplement the Imladris faction's weaknesses, and the Men of the North could bring their siege engines to compensate for the Elves lack of them. Personally I think this idea is the worst, due to the fact that it would basically require an Imladris player to build the Dunedain camp to gain their siege.

If you have an idea for a solution to the siege issues, just say it.

Hope we can all have a nice discussion. :)

VectorMaximus
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Walküre am 15. Feb 2016, 23:31
Hi VectorMaximus  :)

This is a really interesting matter, and I will surely join the discussion once I have time, these busy days.
Though, I will lock the poll feature, for now.

Don't worry, you didn't do anything wrong.
Polls have been under discussion among the Moderators, and we (mainly the Edain Team) eventually decided to make a more specific and constructive usage out of them, via the application of somehow 'stricter' rules.

http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32047.msg416612.html#msg416612

Once this thread develops the necessary and suggested level of debate through other people's own opinions, I will make the poll available again  ;)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 15. Feb 2016, 23:33
Ah alright. Sorry Walk.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Walküre am 15. Feb 2016, 23:37
Ah alright. Sorry Walk.


Oh, no, nothing to apologise  :)
We just have to wait a bit, hope that the thread will attract people's interest and develop a decently insightful debate.

As I wrote, I will join the discussion as soon as I can  ;)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Fredius am 16. Feb 2016, 00:27
Interesting, I will start the discussion then :P,

As I said on Moddb I would propose for a ballista for the High Elves. However instead of giving the ballista to Imladris I would prefer to give it to the Lindon mini-faction, making the Ballista recruitable in the Lindon settlement.

I think this would be more logical, because in the game the Elven siege ships have ballistas attached to them (shooting magic bolts for some reason but okay :/). Elven ships were mainly made in the Grey Havens if I'm not mistaken, so that would give us the opportunity to make a Grey Havens Ballista. Ofcourse I wouldn't mind giving Imladris the ballista instead, but to me a Grey Havens ballista is far more logical considering the fact that they already have those on their ships.

As for the Lightbringers: NO. I'm absolutely against this, it is not logical to give multiple Elves more magical powers than Gandalf or Saruman, two fricking Istari. And, personally, one of the reasons that I love Lord of the rings/The hobbit is that magic isn't used as excessively as in other fantasy movies or books. Magic in Middle-Earth is only limited to a handfull of people, and imo it would be best to keep it that way.

And please don't say that we should limit the lightbringers to 3, that is a very easy solution to anything :D. Imladris already has a limited unit in the form of Glorfindels Windriders.

EDIT: Forgot to expand upon the other two options.

I wouldn't really mind if the Dunedain got the Ballista; but that would take the fun out of it :P. Imladris will be unique by being the only Elves with a siege weapon. High Elves are great smiths and builders, so their siege weapons should be of the highest quality.

As for upgrades, I'm not in favor of that. Can they also be used against walls? If so then it would be a bit overpowered if you ask me.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 16. Feb 2016, 02:43
While I can definitely see the Balistas working for Imladris, would they be of the same base appearance, or would they be modified to look more 'elven'? I just don't want to have an Isengard ballista with elves manning it. :)

My personal preference would go for either the siege engine like you suggested, provided a good design was suggested, or the weapon upgrades. I didn't think about whether they would be able to target walls, but that would be OP, wouldn't it? My thought was that the upgrade would double damage vs structures and allow basic infantry to target gates.

But I absolutely do agree on the lightbringer account. They're out of place and not canonical in the slightest.

That's my personal view on the subject.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Linhir am 16. Feb 2016, 03:12
I can think about one machine, that would look epic, but it could serve only for destroying gates. Some elvish style ballista with ropes tied to bolts. Bolts will pierce even thickest gates, stuck with heads on theirs internal side and Elves could coil rope with special crank to open the gate. What do you think?  xD

EDIT.

Second could be just ladders. I don't see any other siege weapons in hands of Tolkien's elves. It's just... not fitting.

Eventually, some kind of dunadain kamikaze which sacrifice himself in order to set on fire and destroy enemy's building to give his kinsmans chance to win a hopeless battle.

And well... I must admit, I didn't read thread before i posted here first time... looks like ballistas are only fitting solution.  xD
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 16. Feb 2016, 03:49
Very interesting thread.

Overall I agree about the lightbringers being uncanon, and while acceptable (and quite cool and iconic) if kept at below-istari level, making them the only siege engine would be...kind of out of place.

I would very much like the possibility to field an elven-made siege engine, which would make Imladris even more unique, and I support the idea of it being furnished by Lindon. After all, Rivendell is no place to build siege machinery: remember the narrow walkways and all those stairs? how would they even get it out of the main gate?

As for design, they do need something unique, and perhaps we could take a look at the Reaper Bolt Thrower of the Dark Elves from Warhammer

(http://www.brokenpaintbrush.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/reaper-bolt-thrower-front.jpg)

Yes it looks quite much aggressive, but if adapted to the smooth, silvery-white of Lindon, it could be quite unique as for design. Can't remember the game having a vertical ballista.

Another example could be the High Elves's Reaper Bolt Thrower

(http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics16/img5230201d32ef4.jpg)

Just throwing out things here, trying to figure out how the actual thing would look. These two would be far more effective against infantry then buildings, but I can't really imagine Elves taking up a long and ramming down enemy gates, so...
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 16. Feb 2016, 05:00
Don't have much to say, I just agree with the ballista idea. Like other before me I really don't see elves charging in with a battering ram and ramming the door unless it's an automated one.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Fine am 16. Feb 2016, 07:47
I really like the look of the darkelven Reaper Bolt Thrower with the vertical firing mechanism in the center. I could definitely see something like this replacing the Lightbringers.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 16. Feb 2016, 08:34
I've read up a bit on various forums and apart from the ballista I think that the elves might have sneaky ways that are more in tune with nature rather than technological advancements. I was thinking that it should be possible to use something like stealth scouted units that slowly sabotage the building/gate but that can't attack the wall. I think it would be quite unique if they are stronger than usual against buildings and gate but can't attack walls. Maybe not eve destroy the gates but simply disable them for an extended period of time. I think that it's important to give Imladris a unique system. So sorting through my possible ideas:

But I still really like the ballista.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 16. Feb 2016, 13:37
Zitat
I really like the look of the darkelven Reaper Bolt Thrower with the vertical firing mechanism in the center. I could definitely see something like this replacing the Lightbringers.

Glad you do :) it does have an Elven feeling to it even if dark asn spiky, plus it has a nice and unique silhuette that would allow it to stand out against other siege weapons. At least that's how I see it. And it wouldn't be a replacement, just...Lindon's own siege. Rivendell, as I said, is hardly a place to assemble war machinery, so they stick to arcane arts, but he Grey Havens have plenty of space and, as others said, the skill to realize such a thing.

Zitat
I've read up a bit on various forums and apart from the ballista I think that the elves might have sneaky ways that are more in tune with nature rather than technological advancements. I was thinking that it should be possible to use something like stealth scouted units that slowly sabotage the building/gate but that can't attack the wall. I think it would be quite unique if they are stronger than usual against buildings and gate but can't attack walls. Maybe not eve destroy the gates but simply disable them for an extended period of time. I think that it's important to give Imladris a unique system. So sorting through my possible ideas:
-can't attack walls
-doesn't destroy gate only sabotage
-more damage than other siege units against the buildings
-single scout-like heroic units

But I still really like the ballista.

So in a certain way like Annatar's ultimate, only applying to gates? That certainly is interesting, but maybe it would be more fitting for Lothlorien/Mirkwood, as Lindon and Imladris have demonstrated their military prowess and look more like heavy hitters than sneaky bastards.
Actually, it would be very interesting to have Wood Elves access such units, given that their other option for siege are Ents, quite expensive and slooooooowww, so this could actually be a different tactic. Plus, Wood Elves have shown us quite well their ninja prowess :P
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 16. Feb 2016, 15:15
To be honest, I'd also prefer normal siege engines over those "Discount 'The Last Airbender'-elves". They are certainly funny, but their usage of magic is without a doubt the biggest stylistic overkill in the entire mod -and that's saying something with Angmar being a faction! xD
I mean, I like the Lightbringers to a certain degree and Angmar is one of my favourite factions, but this usage of magic seems way to excessive. I agree of course that Imladris shouldn't have super massive siege engines (like Isengard ballista sized ones), therefore I like the concept of these rather small ballistas. However we have to thing about animations and I guess there aren't any for these Reaper Bolt Throwers, at least if they are used the way I think they are.
To bring up another point: I would prefer to keep the mystical theme of ancient wisdom for the siege engines, too. For example, I see no problem in having a ballista as the real weapon, but being able to add Scholars as kind of siege supervisors. I hope you get the idea, it could be played out similiar to orc-overseers (just to have an example how it might work) -probably not the same way because of technical issues, but I'd love to let my siege engineers to be advised by some "all knowing, yet useless in practical things"-elf (otherwise called the typical engineer-mathematician-relationship :D).

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 16. Feb 2016, 15:42
I absolutely love the idea of a small, but nimble multi-fire ballista of some sort. In my opinion, it suits the technological prowess and craftsmanship of the Scholars of Aüle, The Noldor.

That, or Lindon. As was pointed out, Rivendell did not look like it really possessed any place or room to construct siege engines. But hey, in 3.8.1, the Hobbits had big Fireworks Ballistas, and they seem to be the last folk that would go to war with such weaponry. I am sure we can afford ourselves some liberty on the subject.

I like the idea of small anti-infantry ballista with the siege damage equivalent of a regular ram, but it would probably require custom animations, which sucks big time.

Another idea was to make Eagles some form of siege engine, which would be pretty unique, but then Fellbeasts will be inevitably drawn into the equation. Nonetheless, I think this is also an option, even though it would be difficult to balance.

Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 16. Feb 2016, 15:46
Zitat
However we have to thing about animations and I guess there aren't any for these Reaper Bolt Throwers, at least if they are used the way I think they are.
Zitat
but it would probably require custom animations, which sucks big time.

Indeed that would be the main issue. It was discussed as well in the thread for the Dwarven Wind Lance. It depends if the animation from the Isengard's ballista can be twisted around (quite literally in this case) and adapted to such a form. Maybe even a 'bow' animation from archer unit could be used....no idea how, I have very very limited experience in animation, it would be up to the Team to say if it's possible or not.

Zitat
add Scholars as kind of siege supervisors
well lol, that'd be fun. "the ancients say to take your time so that your aim might hit true" "Sure, sure...now pull that level and let's impale those beasts!" "sigh..."  :D

Zitat
the Hobbits had big Fireworks Ballistas
Man I hated those things! Nothing worse for your pride than being nuked by freaking Hobbits!

As for Eagles, I wouldn't know, I believe they fit fine as a temporary summon. Though, they're perfect anti-siege weapons (I hope they go back at taking out catapults in 1-2 hits)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Linhir am 16. Feb 2016, 15:53
I just had revelation! What about... ent wives?!?!?!?!  [ugly]
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 16. Feb 2016, 16:01
Well duh...that was unexpected  :o

I wouldn't know, to me it seemed implied that Ent-wives had gone..gone for good. Plus it seems a bit...out of place, to me at least. BUT, I admit it's interesting and brilliantly funny idea   :D
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Fredius am 16. Feb 2016, 16:18
Perhaps as an easter egg for certain maps :P.

Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 16. Feb 2016, 16:53
I don't like the idea of better upgrades or Dunedain siege weapons. However Noldorin ballistas look elvish enough to be part of the Rivendell faction, so I pretty much agree with everything you guys proposed about them (except the fact that they shouldn't be available in the Lindon settlement, I don't like that idea).

Concerning the Lightbringers, I can't argue with them being not Tolkien-ish enough. Plus they suck really hard as siege weapons. Still, I think they are quite cool so I'd like to see them in 4.0 but reworked a bit: for instance they could be narrowed down to one type of unit (no more earth/fire/wind/water type) with more down-to-earth abilities. Iirc, Elven lords are gonna get removed from the game and I find it quite sad, so I don't really want another cool and unique unit part of Rivendell 3.8.1 roster to be purely and simply "deleted".
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Ealendril am 16. Feb 2016, 19:14
I don't like the idea of better upgrades or Dunedain siege weapons.[..](except the fact that they shouldn't be available in the Lindon settlement, I don't like that idea).
Agree on that.
We thought about a Noldorin catapult/trebuchet/ballista, too. But it should be look in an elvish and graceful way and it should be possible in the real world (which would not be the case with this dark elves ballista^^). Our ideas have dealt with the amazing catapult of Da Vinci (https://www.wonderlandmodels.com/media/managed/large/31051.jpg). Ballista are actually not designed for sieges. Therefore we would like to reduce them and focus more on realistic catapults.

I dont think that we will remove the lightbearers completly, but we will improve and rework them a little bit. My own ideas have addressed the following:
There is now a single scholar recruitable (Lightbringer in white, former scholars from 3.8.1), which has the possibitiy to choose a study direction: earth, water, fire and wind. If the player has choosed one direction, the scholar will get the current designs and can be combined with different types of scholars.
The result is that one does not have large troops of light-bringers anymore, the building options are clearer and better classified in the library.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: aminetude am 16. Feb 2016, 19:37
This is a very interesting thread indeed, well the clear choice of a new siege unit is a ballista, but since isengard already got such a unit, it would be better to look for a new unit, i remember the high/blood elves from warcraft using arcane golems (http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Arcane_golem) as their siege units, they actually use them against troops as well, but i am trying to suggest is making perhaps rock golems summonable by lightbringers or mages, i would say they will be like a mini mountain giant ( wich appeared in the hobbit of course ), they should be very slow ( slower than ents ) but much resilient to arrows, fire  and magic damage, also if the mage that summoned the rock golem is killed, then the summoned creature dies as well ( i guess you can use that angmar summoning master mechanics, when he dies all his battalion dies with him ), i know it isnt very lore accurate, but since elves ( specially the noldor ), were in contact with great magic of controlling the aspects of nature, i mean the three elven rings are synced to nature elements, this would permit the light bringer to do damage to buildings in a new and different way, or if you arent satisfied with the lightbringres, you can make the rock golems summonable from  their building, i mean whenever you summon one of them, we see the animation of a light bringer raising his staff and summoning the creature.
I just said what i think of, so please be nice in your replies  8-|
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Linhir am 16. Feb 2016, 19:44
Or... just put in Imladris Gandolf with his carriage filled with fireworks. He will approach enemy building, scream and explode, taking all nearby units and specified building with him to the grave.  [uglybunti]
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 16. Feb 2016, 19:44
All sounds good. Good idea for the Da Vinci catapult, it has the right silhuette to make an excellent Noldor-style siege engine. But will it be branded as 'Made in Imladris' or 'Made in Lindon'? Or simply dubbed Noldor Catapult and have no real conjunction? And yes, ballistas are especially designed for mass slaughter (why call it Reaper otherwise :P), after all no much point in harpooning a wall, but since the theme was there, that was an idea. More than happy for the Da Vinci catapult (italian pride xD)

About the Lightbringers, well that's a pity, I liked the troops of mages xD yet I suppose that follows better the line of the 'few units, but really good ones' theme of Imladris.

I would say no to earth golems/giants, Pallando the Blue used to have that power, no idea if it'll come back, but already then it looked...weird. Works for Warcraft, not really for Middle Earth.

Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: aminetude am 16. Feb 2016, 19:48
I would say no to earth golems/giants, Pallando the Blue used to have that power, no idea if it'll come back, but already then it looked...weird. Works for Warcraft, not really for Middle Earth.
Really ? i never played Pallando was he in Mordor ? or an easterling building ? i cant remember, but i guess you're right some persons would find the rock golems really weird hahaha
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 16. Feb 2016, 19:50
He was in a waaaay older version of the mod, back when Inns were still there.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: aminetude am 16. Feb 2016, 19:54
He was in a waaaay older version of the mod, back when Inns were still there.
Oh yes, i remember 3.8.1 had the inns summonable heroes, i have been playing edain 4 for almost a year i guess, and i quietly had forgotten the entire vanilla system ( with free building )
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Ealendril am 16. Feb 2016, 19:58
Posts deleted. Please keep the respect, thanks.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 16. Feb 2016, 20:04
Zitat
it should be look in an elvish and graceful way and it should be possible in the real world
Here's a thought: A ballista, BUT one that was actually made for sieges: (http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/1/970/969337/thumb_620x2000/Total_War_ROME_II-01-05-2016_16-29-48.jpg)
Romans used it to shoot rocks to bring down walls and towers, and fire projectiles to burn fortifications/ troops/ towns.
I don't suppose elves wouldn't use fire projectiles, though we could easily come up with something more elvish to shoot with it  xD
I was thinking this might be a possibility for the Dwarves, though it might also work for the elves with a little style and color adjustments.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: aminetude am 16. Feb 2016, 20:18
Another suggestion ( from warcraft as well ), is the night elf ballista (http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/resource_images/6/skins_5174_screenshot.jpg)
with a new type of amunition, you can google it to see it in action, it is very powerful, and actually in warcraft games, these type of amunition can hit many units, and act as a giant Boomerang ( the stick that comes flying back to you after you throw it ), i dont know if that is possible in the bfme 2 engine, but anyway, it seems elvish, its bow is shaped to look like raven wings,  of course the modules can be changed to suit the noldor faction much more, but the mechanism of shooting, and amunition models are different than the normal known giant arrows. Hope you like it :)
Edit: Hoho96, that picture looks amazing, from wich game you had it taken ( i guess it is a total war game, but i cant know wich one  :P )
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 16. Feb 2016, 20:29
The "Da Vinci" catapult looks really promising, and I'm glad you guys are reworking Lightbringers.  :)

Since the topic is called "Imladris Siege", I'm proposing a parallel debate: do you think Rivendell should have a battering ram (or an equivalent) ?
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Fredius am 16. Feb 2016, 20:33
Now you have my full support on the Davinci Catapult! It, indeed, shows the grace and valour of the craftsmen of  the High Elves.

I've read some more reactions here about siege weapons not fitting to Elves. People let me say something to you: EVERY faction should have trebuchets/catapults, ballistas, ladders, siege towers or similair stuff. If you take the real medieval world into consideration; do you think that the French only used Trebuchets, while the English only used catapults during sieges? Ofcourse not, you use different siege weapons for different situations, and be it Elves or Orcs, there is no way that the race is a factor in whether a siege weapon is used or not. Ofcourse it would be ridiculous to include all kinds of siege weapons to all factions in the mod; but it's just how real life worked xD.

Let's look at it this way, if the Elves of Rivendell were to besiege the Black Gate, would you believe that they could take it without any sort of siege engine? For something as massive as the black gate you would need big ladders or, even better, siege towers!

As for Rivendell not being the place to build siege weapons, that's not true.
For example, trebuchets were not battle-ready rolled towards the besieged castle. They were disassembled first, put on a cart, and those parts were driven to the besieged castle. When in range, those parts were quickly assembled and constructed into a fully functional trebuchet. I wouldn't be surprised if the Elves of Rivendell did the same with their siege weapons.

I personally am still against the idea of lightbringers, but let's just see what Edain will come with ;).

EDIT: Btw Hoho if I'm not mistaken those are called Roman Scorpions? It would work too for the High Elves. I would compare the High Elves with the Romans because of their great civilization and knowledge compared to other nations.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 16. Feb 2016, 20:51
@hoho96
The roman catapult is indeed a nice toy, but looking at it, ij just gives me more of a Dwarven feeling. Dunno, it can be adapted of course.

@Fredius
Thruthfully, currently the Elves have the less siege equipment, in terms of quantity at least, for Lothlorien only has Ents, though they are very versatile, and Galadriel. As for Rivendell, for now there are the catapults. I wouldn't put it past Elves to use ladders, given their agility and craftiness. Could make up for the momentary absence of rams. About the siege weapons constructed on the site, yes indeed, and in other games there are such mechanics, to the point of the weapon being unable to move unless de-assembled. I just don't see Rivendell itself as doing so, but not because they can't, just mental closure on my part I think, sorry. After all, there is space in the game's base, so the argument's not really valid.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 16. Feb 2016, 21:00
I am with Fredius on this one. Studying the elements is an interesting way to see the Lightbringers to be put to use, but it took Maiar (and up) and incredibly powerful elves of Galadriel caliber to make use of magic. I'd be pro generalisation of siege engines and units among all factions if no lore points towards them, which seems to screw with lore less than having all these magical powers flying around.

Besides, The Noldor are not known for their mystique or their magical prowess apart from Elrond. They are craftsmen, warriors and lore masters foremost. Noldor Siege > Lightbringers. Almost all the sieges in Middle-Earth's history executed by the elves both in offense and defense where done by the Noldor really. They had the most splendid armies and I am sure accompanied by siege equipment. Especially when a less technologically advanced civilisation like Rohan gets catapults and rams, why should the Noldor not? If you even read like the third or fourth line of the Noldor page on the Tolkien Gateway, it says that they passed much of their knowledge on to Men, presumably also how to make war effectively: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Noldor

Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 16. Feb 2016, 21:23
I really think both the roman scorpion design and the Da Vinci catapults are both really good designs. I've always personally believed the Noldor had siege - as said, they were the ones who 'sieged' Angband, after all. The sole issue I had was that I could not think up a befitting design, but both of these are in my opinion unique enough to represent the ingenuity of the Deep Elves. :)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 16. Feb 2016, 21:46
Zitat
Btw Hoho if I'm not mistaken those are called Roman Scorpions?
To be honest my reference is Total War RomeII  xD
The Scorpio is supposed to be a large crossbow (or a scaled-down ballista) that was primarily used as anti-armor.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-K_yChv_3IM8/UmVuZDR_73I/AAAAAAAABv4/1a1K2TI9KjI/w1920-h1200-no/2013-10-21_00344.jpg)
Here's a better closeup on the Ballista itself:
(http://www.pcinvasion.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/rome-2-beasts-of-war-4-1024x576.jpg)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 16. Feb 2016, 21:52
Well, even scorpions could be interesting to consider, no? I mean, Noldors have kept at bay Evil forces since...well, ever, must be a reason for that, plus, it'd be a nice, historically-accurate addition.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Canis carcharothias am 16. Feb 2016, 21:54
As I wrote on Moddb, I have exactly the same opinion as Fredius. Lightbringers are not at all canonical and elves are enough clever to know the basic physics of siege engines and use them when they are necessary. Balistae, catapults, rams... I think they all fit if they just get an aesthetic tweak.

I just want to bring into consideration one siege engine more, the helepolis. It's an highly effective (helepolis means "City conquerer"), higly complex, classical siege engine from the ancient Greece. Basically, it's a huge siege tower armed with lots of ballistae that shoot through windows. There is also an assyrian version of this weapon, but instead of ballistae it has archers inside and a big battering ram.

Movement is achieved by a mill-like mechanism inside the tower, so no external operators are needed.

Some images:
http://www.artehistoria.com/v2/jpg/CDR27966.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Helepolis.png/1280px-Helepolis.png
http://forrestministries.com/portals/0/images/asyrian-seige-towers.jpg

It could be nice if it could engage the walls to allow soldiers to climb and attack the rest of the buildings with ballistae/ram.

Of course, everything with that Noldor touch.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 16. Feb 2016, 22:00
Duuude that siege tower's wicked! That's what they must've used for the Siege of Angband!
Epic, really epic, but I find myself asking if it could possibly be a bit overkill, with how strong Imladris units actually are? Then again, there's no good faction that has the possibility to get on enemy walls, so this tower in Noldor style would look real nice.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Canis carcharothias am 16. Feb 2016, 22:05
Those ballistae are not too big, maybe we can go with lots of shots but relatively low damage. If not, unit cap and high price (Imladris style). I see more problems in the size because Imladris is a castle faction and it won't fit through the door. Maybe it's created as a builder team that has to take extra time outside to build it. Maybe it is created in an outpost/settlement.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 16. Feb 2016, 22:42
I recently found a picture that, I think, suits the best for now as it already is elvish - style: (http://www.kfguides.com/rift/images/mathosia/screenshot19.png)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 16. Feb 2016, 23:09
First of all: Yes, the helepolis looks awesome. :D
However, if talking about the skills of the Noldor, we have to differentiate very careful between being great craftsmen, that make beautiful works of art (like the elves or the dwarves) or if your works are shown by destruction and devastation like Mordor (and the book Isengard being it's emulator). Therefore I not really certain if such enormous engines fits the theme of the elves.
Also, I'm not entirely sure about a technical point: It could be that wall-climbing-machines (like ladders and siege towers) can't cross gates. It sounded a little bit like that's the case whenever the idea was made to give Mordor or Isengard walls.

A last word from myself towards the Lightbringers: I am now double interested in how Imladris will finally look! I think, their new concept looks far better than the old one and I'm very curious how it will play out. Yes, they will probably still use a little too much direct magic, but decreasing their numbers is the first big step as well as making them less fundamental (being the former siege unit). Personally, I'll just wait and look what is made of the Lightbringers for I enjoy this change. ;)


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Ealendril am 16. Feb 2016, 23:15
To make it clear: That are only my own thoughts.^^ We didnt talk about the lightbearers yet, but we are in agreement that something needs to be changed.

Great, that you like the idea of the Da Vinci catapult.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: YeshuaEnthusiast am 16. Feb 2016, 23:33
They could use a water based siege weapon. (Tying into Rivendell's Bruin River defense system)

They could use a sound based siege unit, like high pitch to a mirror. (Tying into the elves reputation for singing)

Otherwise I like the the darkelven Reaper Bolt Thrower with the vertical firing mechanism
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: AmosVogel am 17. Feb 2016, 00:01
But Angabad fell -or most of it- because of Ancalagon's defeat (he fell and destroyed the towers and a bit more); but also yes, they did siege it, but werent that successful: Morgoth still could send troops out.

I suggest to use DaVincis catapult model BUT instead of working as a catapult, it may throw a golden spear/arrow/something?

Like in this video of Immortals movie where we see Hyperion using Epirus bow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rla8iEFo1sI

To make this weapon unique, i suggest the following:

1. Built a maximum of four-five

2. To be like age of empires II trebuchet:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/ageofempires/images/2/2e/Trebuchet.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110516174018

2.1. The point is that this machine will be pulled by four-six elves very well armored & when they stay infront of the enemy base they will start to bulid-arm it, then after a while -maybe 30 secs- it will be ready to attack!

3. This will be truly unique & powerful, but also,  will be slow. Maybe it could be the most powerful of the siege machines.

4. Could use the range-animations of the elven ship (which i forgot its name)

5. It could be named as the sword of that highelven king that wounded seven times Morgoth (forgot its name ^^)

Hope this can help one way or another ^^
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: CragLord am 17. Feb 2016, 00:11
This is really interesting discussion.
I will not try to repeat too much, but l am completely against any usage of lightbringers!
I will respect every decision of ET in term of them, but they are completely out of place in my opinion. I understand that Rivendell is treasury of knowledge (like Erebor is treasury of gold mainly) but presence of lightbringers as siege weapons, isn't my cup of tea... Simply leave force over elements for Maiar. I simply look at Elrond as "water bender" mainly because of his ring also Galadriel with her powers etc. Simply keeper of knowledge as those lightbringers shouldn't be able do do anything similar to elemenal bending... Some more realistic picture  is needed in their case.
Concerning siege weapons as siege wepons, I agree with statement of Fredius. Simply I agree that Noldors were able to build and use ram, same with catapult, as with balista. There is no need to be so conservative about siege weapons in this term. It maybe look strange, but I think that siege of Angaband wasn't with bare hands or swords and bows. Same and more close situation to Rivendel and Noldors from Middle Earth is siege of Barad-dur. Ok there were Numenoreans, but again, I think elves had some siege weapons also.
All what is crucial is that model of that siege should be Noldorin style. :) Noldorin, not elven in general, because take into consideration that they were warriors and smiths in first place and after that artists and singers. Some opposite to Vanyars and Telerin in that term.
Concerning current suggestions, I really like and support that Da Vinci catapult with elegant firing mechanism. It has really nice model.
Also that High Elven reaper thrower looks nice, it has classical mech of balista so it is real stuff.
What I find really nice is night elven glaive thrower which was mentioned by  aminetude:


That siege weapon has already a nice design, and it could be adjusted in Noldorin style easily. It bolts are maybe more oriented as mass slaying stuff, but what I really liked in that model is hitting animation (https://youtu.be/QNDqBOHds7Y?t=694). That kind of siege could be used as anti mass, anti gate and anti stucture except walls.
Some kind of ram is also something which should be reconsidered. From animal symols which could be used, maybe eagle head motive (we already have wolf,ram heads, can't remember is sige ram from rohan based on horse head look)? Just writing down some random thoughts.
Water, earth, fire, air and other "Avatar bending stuff" I would like to see only in hands of heroes/maiar.  Also water/singing beding siege weapons sounds cool, but they are completely out of place in my opinion.
Who played game LotR: War in The North, there was that idea about sound, when two dwarven warriors are blowing some dwarven horn which produces sound of pitch frequency which corresponds to frequency of autooscillation of stone and brings whole Mount Gundabad down. It is cool, but not so eleven in general. :P And that kind of machine should be very close to structure (or inside stucture) so it could work in general. xD :)

Regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Feb 2016, 01:10
Ok, the thread developed indeed, so rapidly  xD

I don't feel like adding other arguments in favour of the siege-machines-oriented proposal that is being gradually polished, as other people already presented strong and valuable reasons  :)
I just say that I completely support any suggestion aimed to give a proper and decent representation of the Noldorin warfare (siege, in this case), worthy of their millennial tradition.

Regarding the Lightbringers, I express again my disapproval for their reintegration in the faction; even though I respect the current position of the Edain Team and I wait to see what the planned innovations will consist of.
Not only are they not lore accurate, but they also give us a representation, a display of Magic too much loose and 'Harry Potter'-like (and I don't really intend to undermine the importance of that great novel or of the game itself), while we know that only the Ainur and very few High Elves like Galadriel could reach that level of magical manipulation of the physical environment, still conserving the peculiar Tolkien-ish deep and subtle/founding type of Magic.

The Lightbringers have thus not so much space, I guess, in the rationalised and reworked 4.0 Imladris, considering the previous points I referred to.
Moreover, as far as I remember, many people on ModDB expressed as well contrary feelings about them; I wouldn't really be able to tell if they still are the majority among the Edain Community or not, but they are indeed many people.

We could start a new thematic debate about Lightbringers in the future, where we could gather more appropriately the Edain Community's feedback about this matter.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Dadoone am 17. Feb 2016, 08:40
+1 for balista, Davinci Catapult, or scorpion idea ;)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 17. Feb 2016, 09:29
I am more for the Da Vinci Catapult mainly for design and model which feels somewhat closer to the Elven style ! The Scorpion feels rather good too,but I am mainly for the Da Vinci Catapult,it wil lbe a really unique looking Siege Weapon for the one of the last Noldor Elves in Middle Earth. :)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Feb 2016, 12:29
Yes, the Da Vinci catapult is a really great proposal!
How, as an Italian, could I ever not like one of Leonardo's creations?  8-)

(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0924/9974/products/4fe214e1e3d3d.preview-620_1024x1024.jpeg?v=1442425481)

Also, a note for everyone interested in the discussion: I think that we are getting closer and closer to reaching a quite 'final' (articulated) debate, with precise suggestions backed by serious reasonings and concepts.
Therefore, so far, these are the options that seem to be rather complete.


There could obviously be other options if someone is willing to propose something else.
Furthermore, I added the options about siege machines as if they theoretically didn't exclude the presence of Lightbringers or reworked Lightbringers, because I'm not really sure if we can really add an option that consists of the complete exclusion of them from the whole game.
Probably, this is a matter – the role of Lightbringers – that we ought to discuss later, once the Edain Team presents us new information or material about their plans.

Besides, returning to the siege debate, if the suggestions are well structured and defined, I guess we will be more than legitimate to start an official poll and inform the Edain Community about it  :)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 17. Feb 2016, 12:58
I mayself was never big fan of the Lightbringers,they alwasy felt too non canon and non Tolkienish considering the Magic in Middle Earth and Lightbringers are like Lesser Galadriels,it is not like every Noldor Elf can have the Magics and Destructive power of Galadriel or learn Magic strong enough to beat Armies and Ruin Fortresses,but still I won't have problem with somehow revised versions of Lightbringers,but I deffinetely feel that the Da Vinci Catapult is the best option since as some said and I agree Ballista are more Dwarvish than Elvish stlye,plus the Catapult will be one unique in every way Elven Siege Machine that no other Faction will have! :)

Greeting.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Feb 2016, 18:10
I mayself was never big fan of the Lightbringers,they alwasy felt too non canon and non Tolkienish considering the Magic in Middle Earth and Lightbringers are like Lesser Galadriels,it is not like every Noldor Elf can have the Magics and Destructive power of Galadriel or learn Magic strong enough to beat Armies and Ruin Fortresses,but still I won't have problem with somehow revised versions of Lightbringers,but I deffinetely feel that the Da Vinci Catapult is the best option since as some said and I agree Ballista are more Dwarvish than Elvish stlye,plus the Catapult will be one unique in every way Elven Siege Machine that no other Faction will have! :)

I would honestly say that I would be a bit 'cruel' regarding the Lightbringers' future in Imladris  xD
If it depended on me, they would not be present at all in the game.

You and other people both here and on ModDB already gave valuable reasons, mainly dealing with lore accuracy and conceptual consistency in their very faction.
Although I am well aware that many efforts and ideas must have been poured into their concept by the Edain Team – when they originally conceived them – I also feel that their existence in the game somehow lost its reasons to be.

The Edain Mod 3.8.1 version is indeed a great version, that I'm sure will remain an iconic remnant of the Mod's history with the building system; and it is also the first version I played since my discovery of the very Mod.
But, I always thought, on the other hand, that the same version sometimes presented a kind of dispersive element in its own great structure, caused basically by the impressive (sometimes slightly excessive?) presence and display of concepts and features, along with more fictional content than the current version (necessarily given by the fact that the Hobbit films were not all out yet or at all at that time, and that the Edain Team started to work on their new project, leaving aside the previous one).
That said, the Lightbringers did fit greatly in that context.

On the other side, we have our new Edain Mod 4.0, characterised by a very rationalised structure that combines within itself innovative material (varying from graphical aspects to balance) and concepts with smarter systems/features, yet being at the same time simpler in its form and defined, revealing a truly solid essence.
Needless to say, lore aspects are even more accurate and prominent in the game.
Therefore, I could regard this reason as well as one of the probable arguments why there could be the possibility of Lightbringers being not suitable anymore for the new Imladris, if we look at the current context.

Nevertheless, as I already wrote, this issue will be surely dealt with better in the next weeks/month, in case we received more specific news; also because I never played with the new Rivendell either, so that preconceptions and prejudices might be proven not accurate  ;)

P.S. That rationalised should be regarded in its more philosophical meaning, as something that acquired a more defined and diversified structure based on reasonable and clearer characteristics  :)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Fredius am 17. Feb 2016, 18:52
Completely agree with you Walk. However I personally dont mind if the Lightbringers stay, its just that they shouldnt fullfill the role of siege weapons instead of real siege engines. Also the powers they have are a bit out of place. If they were just scholars who give extra supportive effects to regular units then you wont hear me nagging anylonger xD.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: aminetude am 17. Feb 2016, 23:24
Also, about the lighbringers, i dont want them to get removed, but instead to just give them other abilities that support the army, i would say it would be very wise to give them a passive ability that boosts the units healing speed, and that would be very lore accurate, since lord Elrond of Rivendell was a very good and an amazing healer, it would be logic that he taught some of his follow noldors how to relieve their friends from the pain of wounds and war, like that the lightbringers would be very helpful, since the noldor units are few and costy, and to resist combat they would need any kind of support to have a chance to destroy the enemy. I really like them, and i agree that their previous powers in Edain 3.8.1 werent very accurate, since few of the high elves were talented in magic, i mean Galadriel herself didnt just go out using magic whenever she want, and she was well instructed in it more than any other elf in the third age, i mean that's what makes magic a "magical" thing, if it was just used all the time, it wouldnt be that special, but still the healing was a low form of magic, it was much more of a bond with  the nature and  the spirit rather than with arcan powers and sources. But this is just a tought of course, if the ET see it fit to remove them, i won't complain, and if ever the noldor needed support, and would aid them with lorien, and let Galadriel the blessed, use her ring nenya on them, i mean that would be awesome, imagine an invulnerable army of the noldor in the enemy base, it is a nightmare, and they do a lot of damage and hard to kill, and with Galadriel on their side destroying the buildings, it would be hell to stand against the elvish alliance hahaha:)
Ps: By the way, i never tried, is galadriel's ring power usable on allies as well ?
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: CragLord am 17. Feb 2016, 23:44

I like that idea. :)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 18. Feb 2016, 01:20
All these engines look awesome, with my personal preference for Davinci's catapult and roman scorpion.

On the Lightbringers, it's true that they don't really fit in the lore, and their usage of magic is out of place, but still...i tell you, if they don't cover the 'siege' part, but are more of support, I like them.
Plus, are their powers really that out place? While it is true that 'magic' was only demonstrated by Maiar and very VERY powerful elves, the mod is currently sporting a number of magic-wielding humans. The main exemples would be Gulzar and Angmar's Sorcerers. True, they might have learned from the Witch King, but still...even Mornamath can turn his men into wraiths, all of them present on the map. And Mouth of Sauron has his fancy green lightning (he's numenorean, ok, but still). That's quite the magic show, and indirect only to a certain point.
With this I mean that perhaps the Elves demonstrating magic power, in particular tied to nature and the elements, might not really be THAT much out of place. My thoughts at least.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: aminetude am 18. Feb 2016, 10:27
The main exemples would be Gulzar and Angmar's Sorcerers. True, they might have learned from the Witch King, but still...even Mornamath can turn his men into wraiths, all of them present on the map. And Mouth of Sauron has his fancy green lightning (he's numenorean, ok, but still). That's quite the magic show, and indirect only to a certain point.
Well sorry for this long paragraph, i just passed all the exams, and i am back and ready to share my toughts with everyone  ;)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Feb 2016, 11:29
Well, Elven scholars with supportive abilities could be an interesting idea, and a reasonable compromise, I would say.
So, yes, my 'cruelty' might find rest with this concept  xD

About Magic, there are pages and pages that could be written about this fundamental theme.
But, since this is not the Lore Corner, I will try to be concise  :)

In a very strict lore perspective, the kind of usage of Magic that you, Spacetyrant, referred to (impressive manipulation of the Weather and of the elements, manipulation and alteration of the Life/Death cycle and other ones more) are definitely a prerogative of the Ainur, incredibly mighty Elves or powerful beings that acquired power in not so 'conventional' ways (often implying the effects of a corrupting and marring force).

Said that, the only ones – in the late Third Age – that seem to respect those characteristics are Sauron, Galadriel, Elrond, the Istari, the Balrog, the Witch-king and, probably, the Mouth of Sauron, even though the last is indeed covered a bit by an aura of mystery.
Both the Witch-king and the Mouth of Sauron are Human beings, but of a Númenórean descent, enhanced via any possible means by Sauron, especially by the action of the Rings of Power (I read that the Mouth of Sauron might wield one of the Seven Rings of the Dwarves, explaining thus his powers and inhuman longevity).
About Angmar, no, I don't think that single characters could have used Magic at that extent by themselves, without the guidance of their Master, who probably was the source of all their powers as Sauron is for Mordor.
But, I wouldn't question so much Angmar's solutions anyway, as we have to consider that this faction must necessarily count on fictional aspects rather than extremely lore-bound limits, because we are still talking about a game characterised by precise gameplay reasons.

Beside that, focusing solely on the Elven factions, about which one may rightly expect the iconic and very known display of Tolkien-ish Magic that the Elves are renowned for, the arguments above are more than legitimate, I believe.
Therefore, scholars with the ability of freely bending elements at their will shouldn't be theoretically acceptable, with all the respect for their original concept.
Only the Guardians of the Three and other Elven exceptions can legitimately be endowed with such magical properties, as we have knowledge of in the lore  8-)

Only the ultimate and mightiest heroes of a faction consequently and logically have the mightiest powers.
In my personal view, at least.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: aminetude am 18. Feb 2016, 11:35
Greatly said Walkure  ;)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Linhir am 18. Feb 2016, 12:26
Or... lightbringers could just be renamed and they could use some old world's artifacts? Remember when Gandalf said to Bilbo that "There are many magic rings in this world, Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly."? They could just wield some of them that have most destructive powers. ;)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 18. Feb 2016, 14:20
I created a separate Lore page which contains all I know about the lesser rings, so we can have some background for the suggestions and any subsequent discussion of their usage. However, definitely keep on that track, it could make a very interesting discussion!

http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32695.0.html

However, onto the actual suggestion for the lightbringers 'wielding' the lesser rings (Magic Rings, as Linhir called them).
Remember when Gandalf said to Bilbo that "There are many magic rings in this world, Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly."? They could just wield some of them that have most destructive powers. ;)
In my opinion this would be the closest they could actually get in a lore-friendly way to wielding elemental powers, but they would have to be few in number due to a limited number of lesser rings, of which only a few are held by the free people (if any!) by the War of the Ring.

However, on a separate note, I fully support the Lightbringers as scholarly support characters, and I can go either for or against their old role.

Btw Walk, you should just make a page in the Lore section that's "On Magic in Tolkien's World", then you can just redirect people there whenever they use Magic (Power magic that is; enchanting blades and artifacts is still within the possibility of the Elves in the 3rd age, correct? Lorien cloaks, for example) incorrectly, rather then having to retype it out in a billion threads, which you seem to have done at this point. :D
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Feb 2016, 15:46
Thank you, Vector, for having acknowledged my unspeakable efforts  :D
Yes, you're right, it would definitely be more useful just redirecting people to a proper lore thread, even though, I have to say, repeating things sometimes is useful too, and, regarding this topic, my arguments were intertwined with actual conceptual reasons, focused exactly on these matters  xD

Ok, that lore topic could be interesting in order to insightfully explore your speculations more deeply.
Keep in mind, though, that if there are conceptual suggestions/points on Lightbringers' role or status in the Mod – if you basically want to prove something right or wrong – the Edain Suggestions section is exactly the suitable place.
The Lore section shouldn't theoretically deal with any game-related theme (even if the matter concerns the lore legitimacy of any aspect in the Mod).

P.S. It would be better if all the possible lore information gathered in this forum were part of the Lore Corner thread, since, as you may have noticed, they already exist vast debates about Magic, there  :)
I will merge everything with our monumental lore thread.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 18. Feb 2016, 15:56
I had intended the "on the lesser rings of power" post to be one where people would go to it, read up on the lore aspect, then return here to discuss the actual application of said lore. I didn't intend for it to become a discussion place for the Lightbringers (which it might if things go the way they appear! :D). So the actual post is rightfully there for a lore discussion, not because I want to argue any particular way for the Lightbringers there. That rightfully belongs here, as I did in my previous post. The Lightbringer debate will pass eventually, but there could still be need for a Lore discussion on the Lesser Rings, hence why I put it there.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Feb 2016, 16:25
Yes, your thread is kind of taking that direction.
That's why I advised you about it  xD

What I wanted to tell you is that, if there are comments intertwined with lore legitimacy matters in the Edain Mod, they nonetheless belong here, in this section  ;)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 18. Feb 2016, 17:01
Zitat
In a very strict lore perspective, the kind of usage of Magic that you, Spacetyrant, referred to (impressive manipulation of the Weather and of the elements, manipulation and alteration of the Life/Death cycle and other ones more) are definitely a prerogative of the Ainur, incredibly mighty Elves or powerful beings that acquired power in not so 'conventional' ways (often implying the effects of a corrupting and marring force).

The magic I referred to is what I saw in the game.

Zitat
But, I wouldn't question so much Angmar's solutions anyway, as we have to consider that this faction must necessarily count on fictional aspects rather than extremely lore-bound limits, because we are still talking about a game characterised by precise gameplay reasons.

We also have to consider that, while fictional, it may only go so much against general lore, if the rest of the game is completely lore-based. Fictional of course, as there's little choice otherwise, but not completely different from the others, otherwise there could just be the Scourge from WoW imported.

Mine however wasn't an argument about lore, about which I believe I can call myself ignorant, as much as of overall game coherence. It is said that only certain beings can use power, definetly not Men. In my profane eyes, I just don't see why, in a place where ''magic'' (as smoky as the concept can be) is said to be accessible to very few individuals, a human can turn entire armies into wraiths while Elves, some of whom fit the requirements to use power, occupied with studying the ancient arts, and have been possibly been doing so for decades, cannot even summon a fireball.

It may very well just be me having a closed mind, but this all just..irks me. I would just say to give the Lightbringers have a different role, but not remove them.
My apologies if this is the wrong thread to expose such a thought, I just made my point about Lightbringers, whom were object of partial discussion here.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: aminetude am 18. Feb 2016, 17:43
By all means Mr Spacetyrant, you have the right to share your toughts here as any one else have. Actually when i think of it, it isnt a very big deal, that could make the lore foundations shake when wrongly intersepted, each of us almost have the same ideas but we explain them in a much different way. And as long as we are sharing these fruitfull toughts, there is no harm in it at all. And your replies were very polite and well written so as the others's  ;) 
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Feb 2016, 17:51
Spacetyrant, I know that it's the type of Magic you saw in the game (the one you mentioned in your comment, I meant that).
I was in fact making arguments exactly to correct the aspects I don't think they are suitable to be accountable to the Lightbringers  :)

In my reasoning, I never implied that no one could use Magic apart from the said and famous characters.
The problem is the display and type of Magic itself: bending the elements.
Even Galadriel and Elrond can't do it freely without some boundaries related to what they wield (Nenya and Vilya) and where they are (in their own realm, or in distant and hostile places?).
Even summoning a sole tiny fireball wouldn't be acceptable, according to the implications I talked about in the comments above.
I know that it may seem strict, but I also think I share the same considerations of many other people's thoughts, which exactly consist of asking for a more conceptual lore harmony (that it's well constructed in Lothlórien) in Imladris, by suggesting alternatives.

Yes, Angmar has those fictional elements, but I also explained why I think they are needed, and why Angmar should be regarded as a specific system on its own.
The Elven factions, instead, currently are and should be the great and reasonable summary of what we saw in the cinematographic adaptations, and what we read in the legitimate Elven lore (that Tolkien always fancied the most).
A lore in which scholars gleefully playing with elements wouldn't be so suitable, I guess.

Yes, this is the right place to discuss about Lightbringers as well (given the topic); unless we decide to start another new specific topic just for them, and maybe even start a poll.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 19. Feb 2016, 02:52



Now I see your point, and overall on the Lightbringers I agree. Indeed they don't fit with the powers they display at the moment.

On Angmar, while I see your point I personally don't share it. I'd still see it better as adapted to the others and fitting in in all aspects than having it go 'Yolo' with the excuse of it being fictional. Don't mean to sound offensive, just my thoughts.

Now, back to lightbringers:if we keep them, perhaps we could still have them as a supporting unit, and with an elemental twist, only more passive and, to use Tolkien's words, Unseen. They may have studied the ways of the Elements, but in a 'spiritual' way, not unlike what we see from the Three Rings.

Let me explain:
This idea would see the Lightbringers as something of a cross between Orc Overseers and Elven Chanters. When produced, they are pure white, and technically speaking not unlike the scholars, but they can be made to join a troop of unit, and then unlock a selected power they have studied:
-Fire makes the spirits of the unit burn with unstoppable will, increasing their damage
-Water blesses the troops with the light touch of running water, gaining a passive heal when not fighting
-Earth awakens stony resolve into troops, whose armor values increase
-Wind makes the units run on the winds, increasing movement speed

Of course none of these abilities would be strong enough to hold a candle to the powers of the Three, and a single Lightbringer may unlock only one.

An alternative would be to have them run freely as single units, and have all the elemental powers available to make an aura that has the same effect listed above, only temporary and needing to cooldown after use.

I propose this just because, while out of place, I can quite see Elves in tune with the forces of nature, and after seeing the effects of the Rings, perhaps this support role would be acceptable. Not exagerated, and more spiritual than actually magical, it could be more fitting.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Golem am 19. Feb 2016, 10:20
I like that idea and I definitely agree with it. It'd be a shame if the Lightbringers got removed, and what Spacetyran93 suggested in my mind is the perfect role for the Lightbringers.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: CragLord am 19. Feb 2016, 16:03
Concerning supportive usage of lightbringers, I agree that something similar to your suggestion would be nice and reasonable. I support that kind of proposal completely.
I am more for focus on that way of discussion.
Concening Angamar heroes and their magic capabilities, I would say it is matter of some other topic, and I will underline that we should probably discuss about that when new patch is out (just to say, I am also not found of some invented abilities for new non canon heroes in Agmar, but that kind of discussion deserve new topic I think).
I understad that you wanted to compare these two situations on level of magic capabilities of humans and elves etc, but it is not wise to justify (even in minor way) lighbringers usage of magic because some human heroes have great magic abilities in Angmar etc. Simply we should focus on lighbringers as much as we can in lore terms, and other situation to leave for some other time. Simply in my opinion, if Angmar heroes have those magical abilities, and some of them are really not canon for Tolkien world etc (as you have said Scourge from WC3), we shouldn't justify lightbringer situation on that (no canon) one. Simply it is wrong!
Now concerning lightbringers, I like your proposal in one way.
I am not sure have I understood you completelly, when you have said Unseen world, and then describe them as not current  scholars, is that in look term? I mean, white as wights which exist in current Mordor faction?

Regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 19. Feb 2016, 16:29
@CragLord

Ok get it, perhaps I went kind of too over-the-top with the Angmar argument. Wasn't trying to be wise, just to be...'fair', I suppose. I just didn't see why being so stricht with everything, but let Angmar 'off the leash' (please pass me that term, I don't mean it in a bad way) because of its mostly fictional build. True, we don't know much about it lore-wise, but still to me that's not a reason to overdo it, which in my eyes is what's happening. But I would propose to stop the Angmar argument here, we might take it somewhere else in a more appropriate section :)

Back to Lightbringers, yes that was confusing, please forgive me, wrote that at 2 in the morning while battling insomnia xD

From what I gathered from Tolkien Gateway, the Unseen is a spiritual world where some powers extend when used. Kind of like Wraith-World, but on a neutral level. I'm sure there are lore masters here that can explain this far better than I. Take it on my part as 'passive' power, a power you don't see but see its effects.
About the white I was referring to the vanilla Lightbringer, this guy:
(http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/11/10679/lichtbringer.jpg)
(as I see it, he looks similar to Scholars in everything but the staff)

And I did not explain it further, please forgive me, but in the ideas I proposed, their robe color would change to the chosen element for when they join units, or would stay white if they are lone units.

Hope I cleared everything up, sorry again for being so vague.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Walküre am 20. Feb 2016, 15:09
I think we all agree about Angmar at an extent, beside our different positions  :)
Angmar is my least favourite faction exactly due to its particular lore-loose characteristics.
I was trying to explain why those said characteristics are needed, taking the faction's perspective; I too would personally like some changes aimed to – as Spacetyrant said – have Angmar more under the 'lore leash' as all the other factions.
Nevertheless, I'm sure there will be possible improvements regarding this significant matter; but, as you would all agree, it would be better waiting for the release of the new patch and, in case, for the establishment of the very Angmar Suggestions board in the forum.

Regarding Lightbringers, I again reaffirm my support for them being scholars endowed with supportive abilities, as a sort of reflection of the Elven singers in Lothlórien (more or less).
Furthermore, as far as I know, the Unseen dimension is something that only the Blessed/High Elves of Valinor (or the ones who have lived there in specific moments of their life) are very acquainted with, being that dimension a sole thing with the physical one in the Blessed Realm.
Probably, ordinary Elves of the Third Age are too seen as bright spirits in the Unseen World (as BOTFA shows), but I don't really think they have a great and direct influence on it.

So, I would just focus on the library-like nature of Rivendell as a gathering shelter for knowledge as well, instead of widening the topic towards greater themes (as the Unseen World).
Anyway, I'm very confident that we are reaching more and more a polished proposal  ;)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: KingdomofErebor am 23. Feb 2016, 22:26
Hi folks just saw this threat from the great vecotr maximus and I always love to throw around some ideas for new units.

To begin with, I never had a chance to use the lightbringers as I never downloaded 3.8, but from what I've heard, (and seen from some very helpful RuudDevil videos) the light bringers were mages that acted like seige. Now as cool as this is , it's not really in keeping with the elven war tactics, yes Elrond can use sorcery and yes Rivendell is a font of all knowledge but I think we would be passing up a really exciting opportunity if we went for the light bringers. So without further adue here are my ideas for Imladris Siege.

First off I think the Ents are out, they're already used for Lorien, who have more of an afinity with nature than the rivendell scholars, so something else is needed. Unlike the Dwarven siege weapons that are huge, lumbering power houses, Elven seige weapons need to be stream lined and agile, while still being able to pack a punch.

For something like this I feel adopting an elven style balista could work quite well, we've seen something similar on the bombardment ships,  it is basic however with some Edain magic we could get some really cool looking designs.

If we wanted to keep things simple, then we could re skin trebuchets and battering rams for imladris, although they seem a bit heavy and clunky for a graceful and elegant race like the elves.

finally although it's a nice idea, I don't think siege weapons should be recruited from the Dunedien camp as it doesn't have any sort of work shop, its a circle of tents! That said, perhaps a "Dunedien workshop" could be a structure for the main castle, preventing the need to rely on capturing settlements for siege.

Let me know what you think!

Khazad ai menu!
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: lord_ellessar am 26. Feb 2016, 14:17
Maybe an ability (for light bearers or something else) that make growing vines on walls, that could be a alternative of ladders or siege towers, depending on how much life they have :)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Dendrotheos am 26. Feb 2016, 15:42
I admit that I am unlearned in Silmarilion knowledge, being a purely LoTR reader, but I never really fealt convinced by the Lightbringers in 3.8.1, as I only really imagined the Istari casting magic, being themselves wizards. I don't doubt that the High Elves extensively used magic, I admit again that I don't have much knowledge on the subject of middle-earth magic, but I always viewed Rivendel as a place purely of knowledge thereof, and thus little magic as such. For this reason I personally was not convinced by the idea of using lightbringers in the Rivendel faction.
The Team will always have my full support in whichever direction they take with the Imladris faction, but I think, in the interests of siege units, Imladris should have a physical and relatively powerful siege engine. The previously suggested catapult of the Florentian Leonardo Da Vinci is certainly a valid suggestion; there are possible parallels between Imladris and Renaissance Italy in the seeking of Ancient knowledge for modern means. My personal stance on the issue is that some kind of catapult would work better as a siege unit, using the lightbringers for some other perpose, such as for example a unit supporter but with a different set of abilities to the Lorien singers.
I hope this is a meaningful contribution to the issue :)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: CragLord am 24. Mär 2016, 12:37
Interesting video about Da Vinci catapult: Link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHgiYh8aSlU)
It is nice insight about way it works.  ;)

Regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: NoldorSithLordsShipwright am 1. Apr 2016, 08:04
I read through everything and created an account for the express purpose of replying (and receiving news).

I have only recently gotten Edain and have never played versions before 4.2.1., just so you guys know.

I support the idea lightbringers being a support unit instead of a siege weapon.

As for actual siege engines...

I personally adore the Helepolis suggestion, but I'd advocate for its ballistae to have relatively low damage, for the engine to be very, very expensive as well as limited in number (Heroic Siege?) while being insanely durable (maybe a little less than Grond durable?).

As for Imladris' primary siege weapons, I like the Da Vinci catapult the best, but I also like the ideas of ballistae piercing and pulling gates open. Perhaps, that could be their version of the ram? It seems appropriately complicated for the Noldor. To balance it out, perhaps the cord can be cut if the ballista is damaged enough, requiring it to reload.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: d0m0a am 1. Apr 2016, 20:30
It's only an idea.

Could you do a type of hyper siege weapon that causes more damage that the others faction's siege weapons, but yeah, will be really costly in recourse and CP, and could be like this:

When gets out of the siege building place, it will be 'undeployed', as a cart. Will not attack and have a button named 'deploy'

When deploy button is pushed, it will tace some seconds, but then it will turn into a stationed potent siege weapon able to destroy buildings and walls with some shots, and have the button 'undeploy', for put in his 'undeployed' form. Is the 'only' form of protect the weapon if attacked.

This could give to the Elves the strongest siege weapon of the game, but not with the heavy handicap of have to be undeployed for move and deployed for shoot.

Edited for put the correct terms
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: NoldorSithLordsShipwright am 2. Apr 2016, 09:34
The term you're looking for is probably deploy and undeploy, not mount and dismount. But that's also a fantastic idea. Gameplay-wise, it also solves that annoying problem of siege moving when you don't want it to.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Aule the creator am 12. Apr 2016, 11:38
catapaults for imaldris  :o what was wrong with the wizards or light bringers i think they was perfect i think you guys should make eagles a part of there siege since you know the eagles are a big part of the lore and you guys removed them you use to be able to make an eagles nest at the fortress i think you guys should bring that back im not sure if you guys ever tried out edain 3.8.1 hs 3.3 but with ring you could summon eagles of manwe and there are 2 or 3 different heroes for the eagles that they added from the books Gwaihir, Thorondor, Landroval  but since you guys are thinking of new seige bringing back the eagles nest  would be perfect give them some nice skills like for example since throrondor is the king and it says he was the biggest so u could make him the bigger than the other eagles immune to arrows and seige tank and he should cost more then the other 2 and have alot of health points im not sure but i think you guys added the Gwaihir already which is amzing but i think everyone should look into it maybe add your own ideas for the eagles but we need some sky units for smaug and the dragon lord and all the fell beast we need some permanent eagles on the battle field and it says the eagles are immortal and they are a big part of imaldris lore  imaldris and plus we have enough trebuchets and catapaults some people
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Fredius am 12. Apr 2016, 11:58
First of all, use punctuation please.

Anyway, how would eagles be able to damage stone walls or gates? Thats the point of the siege weapons, and eagles are certainly not a good alternative for catapults. Why shouldnt Imladris use catapults anyway?
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Apr 2016, 12:05
First of all, use punctuation please.

+1
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: d0m0a am 12. Apr 2016, 20:53
First of all, use punctuation please.

+1

Anyway, how would eagles be able to damage stone walls or gates? Thats the point of the siege weapons, and eagles are certainly not a good alternative for catapults. Why shouldnt Imladris use catapults anyway?

That's right. Siege weapons's finality is destroy buildings and walls. The eagles are more like mass slayer units.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Ealendril am 12. Apr 2016, 23:49
First of all, use punctuation please.

+1
+1
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 13. Apr 2016, 01:14
First of all, use punctuation please.

+1
+1
+1
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Aule the creator am 13. Apr 2016, 12:49
i just wanted to give you guys a nice idea , some new eagle heroes would be nice i dont know if you are going to be able to recruit heroes from the  fortress but if its the same building from 3.8.1 then at least you can get some heroes at fort  and how will the eagles do damage to walls ? im pretty sure the edain team can add damage to the eagles maybe give king of the eagles a passive ability that gives boost to other eagles they can destroy trebuchets and catapaults and units towers even tho upgraded arrows should do damage on any flying units including eagles but if u let army fight then use eagles  theyll probally still need battering ram for gate sorry for not using perfect grammar
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Fredius am 13. Apr 2016, 14:43
I was not referring to your grammar, I was referring to your punctuation, like dots "." and comma's ",". I'm not trying to offend you or something but using these makes reading your posts a lot easier. Lol at those +1's though :D.

Anyway, I meant how is it realistic for Eagles to damage stone walls with their claws? Can you damage a brick with your nails? To break the gate they must fly very low or even land first, which makes them very vulnerable to enemy units. Also siege weapons, like catapults, have a range advantage compared to eagles who can be shot down by enemy towers and archers very easily. If you just want to have another Eagle Hero then this is not the right thread to post into. You can make a seperate proposal about them but it's best to wait untill the faction is released to see if it's even necessary.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Leri_weill am 13. Apr 2016, 15:14
Anyway, I meant how is it realistic for Eagles to damage stone walls with their claws? Can you damage a brick with your nails? To break the gate they must fly very low or even land first, which makes them very vulnerable to enemy units. Also siege weapons, like catapults, have a range advantage compared to eagles who can be shot down by enemy towers and archers very easily. If you just want to have another Eagle Hero then this is not the right thread to post into. You can make a seperate proposal about them but it's best to wait untill the faction is released to see if it's even necessary.

Yeah I won't be against a return of the eagles too, but they are clearly no siege weapons. Do you consider animals as siege weapons ? :D
Or we could have like... let me see... An eagle carrying stones in his claws and throwing them from the sky on the ennemy buildings ?  [ugly] [ugly] [ugly]
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 13. Apr 2016, 15:27
Zitat
Or we could have like... let me see... An eagle carrying stones in his claws and throwing them from the sky on the ennemy buildings ?

Actually, I've heard worse. Nobody seems to be really bothered with the fact that Ents can form huge siege-size blocks of earth and stone from seemingly simple soil. Why should Eagles not be able to pick up debris of some sort and throw it onto a building?

It could serve as a back-up option. I'd rather have real and powerful siege engines for Rivendell though, they are master craftsmen after all.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: d0m0a am 13. Apr 2016, 17:06
Yeah, but between the idea of the eagles as siege weapon, and elite  units for aid units in battles
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Apr 2016, 17:23
The fact is that Eagles are indeed more powerful in the lore than what they could seem to in the films. Being them one of the few sentient species created and totally controlled by a Vala, they were part of immensely great deeds in Arda's long and sad History; above all, the Eagles' King managed to permanently wound Morgoth and they fought proudly against the Winged Dragons in the War of Wrath...
Therefore, I do think that they could be easily able to hold and throw huge rocks, like, if anyone can recall, the Griffins in Narnia  :D

Anyway, the point is that the Eagles were significantly less involved in the World's affairs in the late Third Age. Not to mention that highly advanced siege machines would be a far better option for conceptual/gameplay reasons, mainly to pay homage to the legendary craftsmanship and warfare knowledge of our beloved Noldor  ;)



Aulë, perfect grammar is absolutely not required nor suggested in this forum. Even though, in line with the general Suggestion Guidelines of MU, one should always try to write decently, in order to be understood properly (for the sake of its own proposals or replies).
Specifically, punctuation should be one of the main 'priorities'.

Zitat
Use clear and appropriate language. Abbreviations, spelling errors, missing punctuation or confusing formatting all make your post more frustrating to read and may reflect badly on an otherwise good idea.
Suggestion Guidelines
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Vodohaka am 24. Apr 2016, 22:59
First I want to say that I never played 3.8.1, so I can't say if I like Lightbringers or not.

But I find the idea of a Imladris having siege weapons like the Da Vinci catapult or some ancient roman scorpion really fitting. Ok it is not mentioned in the lore (as far as I know). Yet the Noldor elves were the students of Aule the Valar of smithing and craftsmanship and the most advanced civilization in middle earth, so they should be able to build such weapons.

So I would like to see such weapons for Imladris.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Apr 2016, 23:17
But I find the idea of a Imladris having siege weapons like the Da Vinci catapult or some ancient roman scorpion really fitting. Ok it is not mentioned in the lore (as far as I know). Yet the Noldor elves were the students of Aule the Valar of smithing and craftsmanship and the most advanced civilization in middle earth, so they should be able to build such weapons.

I completely agree with you. Yes, it's not mentioned directly, but the lore tells us clearly that the Noldor started to craft mighty warfare material already in Aman, especially during the turmoil and unrest caused by the lies spreaded by Melkor. Therefore, I think this proposal, backed by the majority of the participants in this debate and by solid arguments, is more than legitimate  ;)

The focus on advanced warfare was exactly the main guideline followed in conceiving and discussing the suggestion.
The main problematic aspect of Light Bringers was, in my opinion, that they would have not fitted so well in the new mechanics and spirit of the 4.0 version. Their display of Magic, in addition, kind of resembled at times the destructive and direct powers of the Ainur, contrasting to the very well-known subtle and pervasive Magic Tolkien wrote about in the events set during the late Third Age (obviously, mainly LOTR).

This is really an interesting and rich thread. I hope the Edain Team will make good usage of it  :)
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: YeshuaEnthusiast am 21. Mai 2016, 19:38
Regarding the Mages specifically, i think it would make sense to move them into a supportive function, like health/healing, after all Rivendell was known for its peace, rest, and healing.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Fredius am 21. Mai 2016, 19:51
Aye agreed on the supportive part, but perhaps not only healing, but also buffing up strength and/or armor as well.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Walküre am 31. Jul 2016, 22:58
This thread has been moved to the Imladris Suggestions board.

MOVED
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Aranruth am 4. Okt 2017, 07:41
Hi, so I've been looking through the data files, and think I found something I wanted to bring up. It has to do with Rivendell's upcoming siege weapon. In edain.data, I think I found a Hobbit Ballista reference, though I could be totally wrong, seeing as its a mix of English and German(which sadly I don't speak). Is this potentially going to be the next siege weapon for Imladris? It would be neat for a faction other than Isengard to have a ballista, though I'm not sure why hobbits would have such an engine...
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 4. Okt 2017, 10:37
That's a remnant of Edain 3.8.1. In that version, Imladris used to have an Hobbit Ballista as a siege engine, which has however been replaced by their own catapult in the Edain 4, so the ballista won't almost certainly come back
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 4. Okt 2017, 15:06
Which is a shame, because the Hobbit Balista was fun as hell. ;)
It launched fireworks, so Imladris could basically build rocket launchers. They even had a second kind of ammunition where they'd fire blinding explosives which in one version could perma-disable enemies. It was utterly ludicrous, but worth it from an entertainment point of view. xD

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Okt 2017, 15:23
Personally, I really loathed those disruptive devices. Set aside spamming or balance, the idea of Hobbits coming up with fireworks to use in battle was arrant nonsense, in my opinion. And ridiculous as well. I may understand stones, forks and sticks, but siege-designed ballistae were probably too much. I don't know if the lore provides some valuable references for the case, but this is the impression they gave me. As Doctor said, it is a remnant we have well jettisoned for good reasons. Their absence doesn't certainly displease me, nor do I wail and weep to have them come back :D
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Aranruth am 4. Okt 2017, 17:27
Ive only played for a year or two, so I didn't realize that it was a past unit. It does sound kind of ridiculous imo, but i can see how it would be fun. Thats one more of the reasons love this mod though, because the Edain team tries to stay true to the spirit of Tolkiens works.
I would love to see a Lindon Ballista, especially since Cirdan is getting reworked as a building/siege supporter. I guess we will have to see, but if Walk can drop us any hints at all, they would be much appreciated :)
However, I totally understand if you cant at the moment, no hard feelings.
Titel: Re: Imladris Siege
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Okt 2017, 18:48
Interesting. Aye, Círdan is to be made a building/siege supporter, as the official news rightly explained. I can confirm this. Hence, that being said, I would quite fancy a siege machine in the hands of the Keeper of the Havens, as an own feature of this sub-faction. The one-time bearer of Narya was personally taught by Ossë, the Maia ruling over storms and raging seas. He was taught the crafting of ships (and even the building of warfare machines, possibly). He's been around for more than 10000 years in Middle-earth; I'm certain that Círdan could easily live up to additional tasks :)

If you have ideas to share, I will gladly read them. I would rather let you debate, as I need focus on other things now.