New design for the Dwarven units

[korner]

Yes, I have read nearly all suggestions, and nearly all of them I have read the full thread.

As I already said twice now:

I DO NOT WANT TO TELL YOU WHAT TO DO! I just wanted to give you a hint what MIGHT be the reason you are/ you feel ignored in the english forum.

Post as many ideas as you like, but think about if this is really necessary.

Imagine you were a member of the team:

Woul you read so many threads with similar suggestions and so many postings per day in a language that is not your mother tongue??
Wouldn´t it be easier for you if these suggestions would be kept shorter and more focussed?
When you decide to implement a change: would you prefer to do the one that is kept short (and which you liek personally) or would you prefer the one with 40 postings all going into different directions?

Again: I am no member of the team and I might be completely wrong.

I just wanted to refer to your disappointment and give some hints how you MIGHT be more successfull with your ideas. Ignore that if you want, but them please don´t complain...

[(Palland)Raschi]

Folks, the Jackson movie design of the dwarves of the iron hills does not match the description in the Hobbit book and that is the main reason why the Modding Team prefers their version.
Besides it is a really interesting fact that the english community prefers the movie design to the Edain Version while the german community votes the other way around.
Anyway the Edain teamlLeader has already made clear in his review of the last Hobbit movie that there will not be any changes concerning the ironhill dwarves. I think that should make clear that changes are completely exculded and any kind of discussion if this decision was right or wrong would be a waste of time.

[Gnomi]

And yes ET till yesterday have ignored quite a bit the EN Forum I know that they are busy and I respect thier efforts and time spared for us!

Just a small thing:
Just because we don't write something doesn't mean we ignore this part. I personally read nearly everything and write much more in the english parts than in the german parts.

Talking about Arnor has been proven pointless as did with the Dwarves,

Well, you have to look it from this point of view:
We would have never integrated Arnor on our own. We don't like it and would never have done anything in this direction. But our fans wanted Arnor, therefore we integrated Arnor this way. So the current version is already a compromise and a big admission from us to our fans. The same is with many of the dwarves - we don't like it, but as many people like it we try to look for an integration in the game which includes those units, but still is fine for us.

So it's not pointless - but after we do a thing just because of our fans and not because we want it you can't blame us for doing even more and more. This is not how a compromise works. We can also say: "Oh, we're ignoring our own wishes, as we didn't want to integrate Arnor at all, man we're really bad people to ourselves."

As most people in the german forum are part of this page for a long time, they know us much better and therefore suggest tradeoffs on their own.
Some of them want A, but we want C, so some people suggest B, even though they want A. And B has a much better change of implementation, as this is not an extreme.

And I am really feeling like we are wasting our time on all those concepts and ideas in which we put our hearts.minds and entusiasm to create and help theis Great Mod to beceom the Greatest Ever but we go unnoticed!

I don't know how often I've read this. I will write my answer to this one more time:
Imagine following example:
Some fans want to integrate Thorin as a hero slayer and make a huge concept for him.
Others want Thorin as a supporter and also create a huge concept for him.
The next group wants Thorin as a mass slayer and also create a gigantic concept for him.
The last group wants Thorin as a mixture and creates a concept for this idea.

So now there are 4 different concepts for the same hero and even if we like all 4 of them, we just can't integrate all of them. if we integrate one of those concepts 75% of the users are frustrated, because their concept, which they put their "hearts, minds and enthusiasm to create" in wasn't integrated.

Additionally quite often some parts just doesn't fit into the game, f.e. because of balancing reasons, technical reasons or other problems. Therefore it can happen that we integrate one concept - but only half of it, as the other half caused above problems.
Now even the people with the used concept are frustrated, because we changed their concept.


What could we have done different?
Nothing, everything would have caused those problems.

Well, we are mostly thinking on our own about concepts, reading the concepts of the community and then try to create a concept which includes our ideas and the ideas of the user-concepts.
Quite often ideas are also used for different heroes - f.e. someone wanted Thorin as a assassin and had a great concept for him, but we wanted him to be a supporter. If we like the concept nevertheless it happened quite often that we used the user concept and integrated it (of course with some changes again) for a different hero.


Now the next problem:
100% of our current stuff is based on team-member concepts or fan concepts.
If you want to change it  and make some player happy, it can happen that the fan  which concept was used, but deleted in favor of the new one, is frustrated, as he  put in his "heart, mind and enthusiasm to create".


Do you also see this problem?
Additionally those concepts always need a lot of time for us and this is a hobby which is done in our free time. I'm currently learning algebra 8-10 hours a day(last exam tomorrow), working on my bachelor thesis another 2 hours and afterwards I have to cook dinner, go shopping and clean my appartment.
And then I have about 2-3 hours of free time. In this time I don't really want to work on things I don't like. Working on such things would lead to frustration which leads to lower working morale which leads to less work done which leads to even more frustration which leads to me stop working on edain.

Sometimes such things has to be done, but not always. If I'm only working 20% of the time on things I like, this isn't a hobby anymore which I like.

And I think the Poll was clear enough to what the Fans want, but still the current Iron Hills Models can be used for so many other things!

In the german pool:
32 people like Edain-design
19 people like the movie-design
In the english pool:
18 like Edain-design
26 like the  moviedesign.

Therefore 50 people voted for Edain-design, 44 voted for movie-design.
I don't see how the poll is anywhere near clear against the edain-design and for the movie-design.

Even when we say that german and english polls count exactly the same:
Then still only 48% of the votes would be for the movie design and 52% for the edain-version.

As as, as a team, also don't like the movie design, this looks for me like a clear win for the edain-design.

So we'ld be doing what our fans want by not integrating the designs.


Tl;DR:

You can't blame us for ingoring our fans wishes or the english forum. Just try to see everything from our perspective and you'll notice that we aren't as evil and that there are many problems which always make a modding team seem worse than it is in reality.

[CragLord]

Anyway the Edain teamlLeader has already made clear in his review of the last Hobbit movie that there will not be any changes concerning the ironhill dwarves. I think that should make clear that changes are completely exculded and any kind of discussion if this decision was right or wrong would be a waste of time.

Agree, sad but true, for now. 

Folks, the Jackson movie design of the dwarves of the iron hills does not match the description in the Hobbit book and that is the main reason why the Modding Team prefers their version.

Well, that is binar kind of thinking, because in book we have description of Dwarven veterans(mainly from Iron Hills, those are also soldires from Orc-Dwarven wars) , not mainly description of Iron Hills dwarves or this faction. Sadly this is only description of Iron Hills soldiers in lore, and team mapped this on whole faction. I don't have problem with current models in game, just I would like to see some kind of implementation of BOTFA models. We have suggested more times that through Dain's summoning spell.
PJ failed with look of veterans in movie, but this models are nice, and they could be used in other purposes. That is point here, not only idea of replacement of current models.

Anyway, we are "fighting" here for some changes in far future obviously...

P.S. korner, I understand you completely, in sake of this topic I won't answer more.
P.S.2 Gnomi, thank you for reply. 

Regards

[Walküre]

Woul you read so many threads with similar suggestions and so many postings per day in a language that is not your mother tongue??
Wouldn´t it be easier for you if these suggestions would be kept shorter and more focussed?
When you decide to implement a change: would you prefer to do the one that is kept short (and which you liek personally) or would you prefer the one with 40 postings all going into different directions?

I too am not a member of the Edain Team and I obviously respect your opinions, but I honestly find your conclusions totally out of logic 

I always regarded the MU's mechanism of renewing the threads and encouraging, then, an useful and wide (always focused on the topic) discussion (in which the general proposal is being constantly polished and perfectionated), as one of the most significant qualities of this website, making it superior to ModDB, if we talk about proposals and Discussion.
I in fact sincerely think that the most interesting and rich threads of the English Community are exactly the ones that currently have a lot of posts and a wide discussion in them (for example the threads about Elrond, Galadriel, Lórien in general, a new possible Scout Hero for the Iron Hills,...); check them, if you want, for they are really interesting 

Also, I would say that the linguistic barrier is not a problem at all, and should not be so, as we have and should have the same opportunities and possibilities of expressing our own ideas and being heard; furthermore, talking about a 'mother tongue' issue wouldn't be fair at all, for the Edain Team itself in the first place, since most of it speak and write in plain and perfectly understandable English, and they also released a complete English Version of the Edain Mod 4.0 and welcomed us on MU (from the initial project of the EIC on ModDB) with the specific purpose of making us really 'feel' part of the Edain Community, without any barrier left.
And, let me just say that the majority the members of the English Community are not native speakers of English in the first place (me neither), so this is definitely not an issue 

Concerning strictly this thread, you will find that it's full of reasonable, variegated and never-useless proposals, making it, in my opinion, an interesting thread; and I think it would be a little bit discrediting saying the opposite thing (agreeing or not agreeing with the topic).
I myself proposed different possible solutions, since I always stated from the beginning that I'm thoroughly against any total replacement of the Edain Mod's models.



Greetings 

[Gandalf The Gray]

well spoken walk well spoken 

[LordDainIronfoot]

Now I want to apologize to the Team if I have made them angry in any way in pursuing my passion for Iron Hills,I can asure you that it was never my intention at all!
I am glad that Gnomi is reading our ideas I just think that posting fe answers now and there (like he did few times) will be better for  us in English Forum to know if the Team has any interest in idea and how can we improve it or should we even continue discussing it thats all!
I really hope that ET will understand me properly and not be offended of any of my threads,posts and etc.
Now back on topic!Since the combined results of the Polls are nearly close "For" and "Against"  it close to 50/50 with slight advantage for against the Movie Models,but I think that in this kind of situation we should find a compromise decision to satisfy both part of MU,English and German! And since more people doesnt want those Models to reaplace the current Edain Models they should stay,but Movie Models will take the place of Lord Dain LV 10 Summon,there are many  threads here and on German Forum about that and combiining the the best from both will be perfect and this way we will have Movie Models as small part of Iron Hills faction while the major part will be left to the Edain Models! :)This way all Fans will be happy I hope! And I want to note that that idea,as well the New Scout idea and New Outpost idea are not something that WE demand or wan to be made as quick as possible right at the moment,we just want to know the Teams opinion about them and if they want to use them in FUTURE when they think they have the time for improving the ready Factions!
And I want to thank to Walkure,CragLord and Gandalf for steping up for me and the English Forum and to thank Edain Team for their patience with me and for undesranding!
I really hope we can find a compromise on the matter and on future matter too,so that all fans to be happy!
Have a nice day to all members on MU!

[Gandalf The Gray]

im always with you dain you have the best idea for dwarfs mate

[Elite KryPtik]

Whoa, I stopped reading this topic and came back out of boredom and it has exploded into an argument between German and English! 

From my point of view as a solely English member of the community, who (unfortunately) only knows English, and somebody who has only been here since 4.0 released and never played 3.8.1, I think team interaction with the English community is fine, although I do wish they would respond with a simple "no, for X reasons" more often, so that people don't pour a crazy amount of time into their ideas and get no response whatsoever. I have posted a fair few ideas and suggestions myself, mostly for Rohan, so I know what people here are talking about.

However, I am also a bit less naïve, and I know that the team isn't being paid, and has to do this in their spare time, and finally that there will be conflicting ideas from different fans and even the team members themselves. This is why I generally don't complain if my suggestion seems to go unnoticed, the team has a lot on their plate, and I get that. I have never considered the team to be "evil". My only current wish for the mod is that Rohan be made a little bit stronger, so they can have some kind of chance late game. I personally don't understand why Rohan seems to keep getting made weaker with each patch, while other factions get made stronger or get cool new stuff, IE Mordor getting new Sauron form.

I also wish that instead of arguing and keeping everything separate, that people from the German forums could cross-translate their ideas over here, and somebody who speaks German here on the English forums could cross-translate over there, so we could get a better idea of what EVERYBODY in the community wants, and drop this language barrier issue. That's my speal for the day

I'll also say that I support having the movie designs as Dain's summon, I think it would fit nicely, and I think the models, while they aren't really canon, are cool in their own right. That shieldwall was badass, I can imagine orcs smashing against that and not gaining any ground at all.

[Adrigabbro]

+1 for the summon at level 10.

[LordDainIronfoot]

I have made a new Poll which represent the compromise solution about the Movie Models since the combined votes from EN and GM Forums were near 50/50!
The idea about Dain LV 10 Summon is shared on both Forums so we may combine and make one great concept for it!
I invite and welcome fans from both Forums and hope that fans from Both will Vote here so we can see if there is a chance for compromise on the matter!I hope that all will Vote and share their thoughts about it!

[Walküre]

I'll also say that I support having the movie designs as Dain's summon, I think it would fit nicely, and I think the models, while they aren't really canon, are cool in their own right. That shieldwall was badass, I can imagine orcs smashing against that and not gaining any ground at all.

+1 for the summon at level 10.

Yes, I always regarded this option, a sort of summoning of the Royal Guard, as the only possible solution to be experimented with, since, also, Dáin's armour and the one of these units match together perfectly 

The idea about Dain LV 10 Summon is shared on both Forums so we may combine and make one great concept for it!

I think that it is the wisest compromise 

[CynasFan]

OK, the poll is good, but my problem to make the Level 10 summon with only movie designs is that we had so only one unit, eventually spears. But now we have, if I remember right, different units. Spears, axes and bows.
So I can´t really say that I am against this idea all the time (the movie design isn´t the baddest Point on designs in the movies ), but I doesn´t want clone troopers. That is Star Wars stuff and for that I have a Star Wars game
So, if you or somebody else could post this summon with different units and this units could be different in their design I could agree.
Greetings, CynasFan

PS: My english is still so bad like your german, but I doesn´t Need Google translator for that
OK, that´s embarrassing, sorry for that

[LordDainIronfoot]

Now,I want to say that every Unit in the game looks like Clone Arny with that logic,Gondor,Uruk Hai,Rohirim adn etc. I don't think there is possibel way to have each Soldiers with different face and armor,after all it is basic regular army!
That aside I ahve few ideas about the summoned Soldiers
So if I may...we can call that Summon "Iron Guard"or "Iron Legion" I think ti is fitting with the whole Theme!
So we can have 3-4 Battalions Armed with Spear,Short Sword and Shield and they can have "Iron Wall Formation" (like in the Movie) which will be stronger against Infantry than only Cavalry  and have "Spear Throw" which will do good DMG against Monster similar to how they killed the Troll in BoFA and for a while they will Switch to Sword(because they throwed their Spears) and it will ahve like 1-2 or may be more Minutes Cooldown and then again will become Spearman , or they can just have Weapon Toggle between Sword and Spear! And I think they should be Permament Summon but in Limited Number 3 or 4 Battalions!
For all who think that Iron Hills had the same Sears as Erebor!

Now I ahve another idea about the "Iron Guard/Legion"....
They can have More Iron/Grey and Gold/Yellow color for their Armor like this fro example ...

And they be armed with those Two Handed Mattocks which will do some are damage...

An they can have also Axe and Shield which will do more DMG against Havy Armored Units...

The Shield should have brighter Red to represent Iron Hills Theme Color!
And/or Short Sword and Shield which will do more DMG against Normal Infantry Units...

So they can have both Axe and Shield  and Sword and Shield or just one of them!? I tihnk Sword is more apropriate to represent Movie Dwarves!
I am waiting for your feedback guys I hope you like it!
Or may be we can have much more simplier Summon,like Summon 2 Battalions with Toggle Sword/Shield or Spear/Shield or 4 Battalions from whom 2 will have Sword and Shield and 2 will have Spear and Shield!?
P.S. Well Edain Mod is the reason I regret the fact that I neglected the Deutsch Lessons in school but still I tried for the good of the community to establish a connecion between the 2 parts of MU!

[Adrigabbro]

Too much work I think. Keep it simple. I'd rather say 2 or 3 (depending on their strength) temporary battalions armed with spears and shields, with wall formation.
But I like the idea of summoning either Pikesmen or Ram Riders if Dain is mounted or not.