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Solutions for OP/UP Mordor faction
von
TiberiusOgden
am 06 Apr, 2015 23:11
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Very popular debate - is the Mordor overpowered or underpowered faction in the new version of the Edain mod?
And how to solve it? Exist some solutions for this?
You can present your ideas according to experience with playing of Mordor - either against AI or against real player.
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#1
von
DarkestMaiar
am 06 Apr, 2015 23:26
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It must depend who you play against, my friends and I are not pros at Edain, not even close. Infact 4.0 is the first time we played it heavily, and although we played a lot of BFME 2 and its other mods many times it cannot really speak for this mod.
So as a medicore player who plays against mostly 1 hard/brutal A.I (any faction, I always play as mordor) I would say against the A.I its pretty powerful just by spamming orcs. Take my last few games I have been playing on both large 8 player maps, 2 player maps and 3 player maps the last week or so. Me vs 1 or 2 A.I and its usually just a case of throwing up a few barracks, buying more until I get 4 barracks in total all the while spamming orcs.
This can fill the map quite quickly. I play epic battles most of the time though, so maybe CP not being an issue makes it even more overpowered. When I do play normal games its against friends but they prefer high money fights with 4k, since it lets them buy more men to match my free orcs.
Maybe other factions infantry should be cheaper early game? would this help?
Thing is, its easy to make mordor a weak faction. If you add expense to Orcs, lets face it their weak, the only reason for them is meat shield and numbers, add too much cost to them and they lose value fast since most other factions can hack through them until the "hordes" overwhelm.
Reading a lot on the forums/mod database, some people say late game mordor is weak, so I imagine the higher end Edain players who can survive orc spam may push back with upgraded infantry and clear the weak orcs away. Leaving mordor with little to no counter.
Maybe both Mordors early game is overpowered while its late game is underpowered? The reverse is true for Gondor/rohan/Isengard, their fully upgraded units make meat of mordor later on.
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#2
von
Draco100000
am 06 Apr, 2015 23:43
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Overpowered things: Whicht King`s Fear. Sauron`s buff. Khamul opendoor power. Imposible to defeat with a good late.
UnderPowered Things: extreamly expensive trolls. Low health start orcs. cant upgrade morgul orcs with fire arrows. very bad early game against cabalry. with the new buff, use free orcs against westfold riders is a suicide. needs a fortress to win.
General Opinion: In fact, i think the mod is very good balanced; people only needs to learn to play in early game, using their op heroes, and troops. If your enemie controll the map many time, you will lose, and the enemie isnt op.
posible solutions: teach players to play this awesome game, explaining the moments of the battle ( early, mid and late game) Show the best strategic tactics with every faction.... A usual rts player, can find this in some hours, a new player will loose many times, and only read that the orcs are free. so if it is free it is op, and it isnt true.
Very good job edain team, make the changes that you think are good for the game.
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#3
von
LordMaus
am 06 Apr, 2015 23:48
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MOrdor is not overpowered and it is slightly underpowered ( at new mordor got nerf on heroes and fortresses by increasing their cost ;so it is hard to obtain advanced orcs or heroes comparing to gondor,rohan and isengard right now; so if you don't reach fortresses on time your army becomes very weak for after mid game ).
Some people say free orcs issue. I must say this very clearly really. Free orcs' spawn time is very long and they are very weak. Even you send a zerg of them rohan,gondor and isengard can encounter them very easily. It is the truth !!! If rohan,gondor or isengard reaches to their upgraded units ,even a zerg army of free orcs or fortress ( minas morgul or dol guldur ) orcs they are getting defeated at the end on the battlefield then it is really hard to stop the other side.
For trolls, trolls are getting die vet easily even thy are in upgrades versions. Trolls' anti-units are archers and spears and your trolls are dying so fast or heroes like rohan's hero Éowyn's spear attack takes 3/4 hp of the troll with 1 hit !!!
MOrdor's main problem is this : " when you concentrate on one thing you lose others and these others remain as very costly ". Mordor gets it main power from settlements first then sauron influence. How ? Settlements lower your orc unit costs or lower your trolls or spiders' costs . Thus, if you go slave camp which you need to have 6 slave camps to reach its maximum potential which is prefered to have x6 settlements to get its maximum effect ;otherwise it is not very effective, especially for end game ( at end game you need to spawn your orcs so much and faster to defend yourself ;otherwise your lose is definite !!! ). Shortly, when you go one of mordor's power you lose from others. It is same for siege weapons or spellbook effectiveness too. If you don't go for x6 armory then your siege weapons are too expensive, if you don't go x6merchanary then you cannot obtain your cool spellbook skills which affets your gameplay and the situation of battlefield too much.
The maps of edain mod 4.0 demo, there are very less settlements for mordor to use. It is not a problem for other factions too much. Mordor power is getting its power from settlements shortly. However, even Edain Team puts enough settlements and big camps it will not change the fact " MORDOR IS SLIGHTLY UNDER-POWERED ( comparing to other factions ) ". Why ? because of upgrade system of other factions and their units are better than mordors in general and they reach many things faster than mordor !!! Mordor cannot do anything against fully upgraded rohan,gondor,isengard armies and if it is a player too then mordor doesn't have any chance at all !!! We have seen at EDAIN TEAM'S TWITCH MATCHES that how the good factions are very strong against against evil, especially against mordor ( isengard is really good comparing to mordor , it is the truth ).
If I wrote something wrong please say. But I want to say one thing I am playing against Brutal AI good factions+isengard vs myself as mordor always at 2 vs 3 or 4 vs 4 for hardcore,difficult gameplay and mordor is losing most of times ( and I played many many matches against Brutal AI at 3vs3 and 4vs4 )...
Mordor AI is useless too in the demo or mordor with a real person - still mordor is very weak at the lan games )
Other problem is " Good factions' castle and camp walls are very weak ( it is really easy to destroy them, me and many ppl think like me have same opinion that we don2t get the siege feeling really. Make Good factions' castle and camp walls more durable and more health. In addition, make castle maps for 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 too please !!! Thanks.
Note :
Please check my mordor suggestion post :
http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30590.0.htmlThank you.
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#4
von
hoho96
am 06 Apr, 2015 23:55
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Waw! You're actually the first one ever to say that mordor is an early game faction, and becomes weaker at late game!!
I would argue that mordor (and most evil factions) are late game factions, and they're at their weakest in early to mid game. Mordor may be able to barely survive the early game with orc spam and a couple of heroes. But without at least one outpost, it can never fully defeat an attack. However, at late game when you get Morgul and the WitchKing, it's basically a game over for the enemy.
I'm not saying that other factions can't defeat Mordor. What I'm trying to say is that the longer Mordor is left to build up, the smaller your chances wouod be facing it because you simply can't grow your army in similar proportions.
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#5
von
Draco100000
am 06 Apr, 2015 23:57
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Mordor weak in Lan games? Pls orcs everywhere, your eye seeing everything... easy early, get some slave farms and go to destroy enemie farms. you can push many time, if you need more orcs, just build another barrack. use the first nazgul to improve the effective of your orcs, get sauron when you want, and start to buff a barrack, all units at lvl 2 in early-mid game is a good start.
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#6
von
Azog The Defiler
am 07 Apr, 2015 00:10
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I think its pretty balanced atm, Mordor players have a lot to think about during the game to use Mordor to its full potential, i mean leveling up Sauron and using him to strengthen your army, and they have to use a lot of resources to do so. My point Mordor has a lot to focus on to be effective so they should have the spam, while other factions can focus more on using their troops to their full potential.
But yes I also think Mordor is better late and maybe even a little too weak early with their overly expensive trolls that die very fast.
I think i have a solution for the troll problem:
Instead of trolls get upgraded from Saurons influence, troll cage would unlock attack trolls on level 3. This would could make regular trolls cheaper and weaker for early game use.
So you would have 3 different trolls in the troll cage (4 if Dol Guldur trolls^^)
Mountain troll, Drummer troll and attack troll
Also it would solve the problem in war of the ring when you cant get upgraded trolls which is really annoying
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#7
von
Elendils Cousin 3. Grades
am 07 Apr, 2015 11:53
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Also it would solve the problem in war of the ring when you cant get upgraded trolls which is really annoying
I think I read somewhere that Sauron will no longer lead an army himself in future updates. At least somebody came up with that idea, I'm not quite sure if the team responded to that^^. You could then recruit him regularly on each map and use him to upgrade your buildings.
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#8
von
Azog The Defiler
am 07 Apr, 2015 13:10
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Well that would be nice, but i actually built a camp with a troll lair, and used his influence on it but it didnt work:/
But i think that if the attack trolls would be a new unit, it would be a much easier solution to the problem.
Also to the problem with the too expensive trolls early game.
And a little off topic, but i think the fact that you can build stuff destroys the purpose of WOTR battles:/
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#9
von
LordMaus
am 07 Apr, 2015 14:51
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HOW WILL MORDOR DEFEND ITSELF AGAINST FULLY UPGRADED " ROHAN,GONDOR,ISENGARD " ARMIES ???
My mordor units cannot do anything against fully upgraded Rohan,Gondor,Isengard armies !!! Trolls are expensive and weak, siege weapons are expensive and weak, orcs are expensive and weak ( except free orcs !!! ), spellbooks' cooldowns are too long comparing to other 3 factions... When you concentrate on one feature you lose others and these others becomes very expensive too at Mordor !!! Thus, mordor is not balanced...
So, I ask again :
HOW WILL MORDOR DEFEND ITSELF AGAINST FULLY UPGRADED " ROHAN,GONDOR,ISENGARD " ARMIES ???
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#10
von
Draco100000
am 07 Apr, 2015 23:42
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HOW WILL MORDOR DEFEND ITSELF AGAINST FULLY UPGRADED " ROHAN,GONDOR,ISENGARD " ARMIES ???
My mordor units cannot do anything against fully upgraded Rohan,Gondor,Isengard armies !!! Trolls are expensive and weak, siege weapons are expensive and weak, orcs are expensive and weak ( except free orcs !!! ), spellbooks' cooldowns are too long comparing to other 3 factions... When you concentrate on one feature you lose others and these others becomes very expensive too at Mordor !!! Thus, mordor is not balanced...
So, I ask again :
HOW WILL MORDOR DEFEND ITSELF AGAINST FULLY UPGRADED " ROHAN,GONDOR,ISENGARD " ARMIES ???
I´m going to reveal the perfect tactic with mordor: Get all of your units at the same point of the map, use the sauron´s buff, enjoy killing entire upgraded armies. PD: you will need, Wicht king, and khamul, if you want to win. Controll the map will make easily kill your enemies.
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#11
von
LordMaus
am 08 Apr, 2015 12:17
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HOW WILL MORDOR DEFEND ITSELF AGAINST FULLY UPGRADED " ROHAN,GONDOR,ISENGARD " ARMIES ???
My mordor units cannot do anything against fully upgraded Rohan,Gondor,Isengard armies !!! Trolls are expensive and weak, siege weapons are expensive and weak, orcs are expensive and weak ( except free orcs !!! ), spellbooks' cooldowns are too long comparing to other 3 factions... When you concentrate on one feature you lose others and these others becomes very expensive too at Mordor !!! Thus, mordor is not balanced...
So, I ask again :
HOW WILL MORDOR DEFEND ITSELF AGAINST FULLY UPGRADED " ROHAN,GONDOR,ISENGARD " ARMIES ???
I´m going to reveal the perfect tactic with mordor: Get all of your units at the same point of the map, use the sauron´s buff, enjoy killing entire upgraded armies. PD: you will need, Wicht king, and khamul, if you want to win. Controll the map will make easily kill your enemies.
How will Witchking and khamul help on the battlefield ; how are they making a differenca ?
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#12
von
Draco100000
am 08 Apr, 2015 16:01
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HOW WILL MORDOR DEFEND ITSELF AGAINST FULLY UPGRADED " ROHAN,GONDOR,ISENGARD " ARMIES ???
My mordor units cannot do anything against fully upgraded Rohan,Gondor,Isengard armies !!! Trolls are expensive and weak, siege weapons are expensive and weak, orcs are expensive and weak ( except free orcs !!! ), spellbooks' cooldowns are too long comparing to other 3 factions... When you concentrate on one feature you lose others and these others becomes very expensive too at Mordor !!! Thus, mordor is not balanced...
So, I ask again :
HOW WILL MORDOR DEFEND ITSELF AGAINST FULLY UPGRADED " ROHAN,GONDOR,ISENGARD " ARMIES ???
I´m going to reveal the perfect tactic with mordor: Get all of your units at the same point of the map, use the sauron´s buff, enjoy killing entire upgraded armies. PD: you will need, Wicht king, and khamul, if you want to win. Controll the map will make easily kill your enemies.
How will Witchking and khamul help on the battlefield ; how are they making a differenca ?
Wicht King gives tones of fear, and very good leadership. Also make, area damage in his commander form. Khamul has the best damage of all nazgul, so you can kill any enemie hero ( except tanks, like hama) with some basics with him. Also, he can open the enemie doors.
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#13
von
hoho96
am 08 Apr, 2015 19:37
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and they can mount a freaking god damn flying snakes!!
Also, did you know that Khamul can destroy any building by just standing near it and enjoying the view?
And the WitchKing can make any heroes powers useless for a time? Not to mention the insane leadership that not only buff your units, but also makes all your heroes (the Nazguls) anti-hero ninja assassins?!