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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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Melkor Bauglir:

--- Zitat ---We are talking about Earth, Fire, Air and Water, the founding components of Arda itself  8-)
--- Ende Zitat ---
Apart from that, even Narya doesn't enable Gandalf to throw fireballs left, right and center. As far as I know this refers mostly to inspiration and creating a fire inside one's heart to not give up hope. Yes, he eventually uses some fire magic, but only as Gandalf the Grey and not as his... well, ascended form as Gandalf the White. And since I highly doubt that there exists a "ranking" of power between the three elven rings, Elrond and Galadriel aren't able to do so. Of course both have control over their dominion (Elrond via the river, Galadriel e.g. by conjuring a mist to guard Eorls ride), but still: This is Tolkien's way of magic, you do not stand there bending elements (in the Avatar sense), instead you have a deep connection with the lands you live in, granting you certain abilities. (Which probably don't even originate from the Rings of Power, for people like Finrond Felagund could also use magic. And him being Galadriel's brother, I don't think the Lady of Light really has Nenya as some form of vessel, to channel a mighty rain of destruction.)
Therefore there is no way a lesser Ring of Power could grant such a devastating force -eventhough, I wouldn't totally give up the idea of a lesser ring being necessarily weaker in its direct effects on its bearer: E.g. the main power of the elven rings is keeping their dying realms still living over thousands of years. This is in a specific way much more impressive than just increase one's lifetime (effecting only the ringbearer) or making him invisible. It's an entire country we're talking about! ;)
Therefore I guess, the lesser rings do have certain powers, however I fancy them mainly as super powerfull toys, not like devices that (quote Galadriel) "was found the strength and will to govern each race". Yes, it's a movie quote, but it still holds. Yes, they are very valuable artifacts, but not more. The pure fact that not a single lesser ring is ever mentioned in the LotR (a story whose title strangely is about "rings" xD).

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Walküre:
Galadriel and Elrond do bend elements (obviously, not exactly like the unique way of Lightbringers) in a very extensive way.
There are a lot of hints about this fact; the most evident ones to be noticed are the manipulation of Weather, Time, the surrounding Space and the whole environment of their realm.
And, consider that we are talking about hundreds of years of constant protection.

I never really wrote that the Three Rings exactly give the ability of creating fireballs or whatsoever.
I just compared the way Galadriel and Elrond (of course, also mainly for their own innate capabilities) bend the World/Nature to the powers themselves of Lightbringers, that exactly consist of an impressive manipulation of Nature.
Also, when I referred to the elements, I was indeed referring to the elements of Arda themselves (natural aspects in their purest form); I was not specifically talking about the Three Rings, even though their very names and titles remind us of the components of Arda.

And, yes, I agree with you about Galadriel, her History, Nenya's characteristics and role in Galadriel's abilities and so on.
As you probably already saw, I think I left tons of posts about those matters in this precise section (so, yes, I have them in mind)  ;)
Posts that, I'm sorry, I don't really have the strength to write again from the beginning  :D

Adrigabbro:
You didn't get my point.
Hell no I am not in favor of Airbender-like Lightbringers who can mess with the elements, neither of non canon stuff in general. However, more importantly than what is stricly canon, what ultimately matters is our own interpretation of Tolkien's world. Let's take the giants in The Hobbit book: there is quite a mystery around them and we don't know if they are stone, troll-like, humanoid giants or even real at all. Do you think Tolkien left the topic unclear because he didn't have time to expand on it? I don't think so. He did it on purpose so that everyone can interpret personally. Also, according stricly to Tolkien's writings, goblins and orcs are the exact same thing and yet I bet evryone here thinks of goblins as lesser orcs. Aren't Murin and Drar starting to feel about as canon as Gothmog or Ugluk after several years of Edain? And what about Lurtz? I'm pretty sure most people here feel like he is more canon than Ugluk.
Hopefully I made my point clear this time.  :P

Back to the Lightbringers, what I meant was that having support exclusive Lightbringers who would get their """magical""" aura with lesser rings was an idea I'm very comfortable with.

Adamin:

--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 14. Feb 2016, 01:58 ---I'm afraid it does contradict the lore though.
Celebrimbor was never aware of the One Ring until Sauron's revelation, nor did he ever contribute to its creation.
This vision is still contradictory, no matter which side we decide to look at it from  :)
Again, I don't want to persecute that game, but it's also true that it shouldn't theoretically be possible constructing solid lore considerations upon it.
--- Ende Zitat ---

Let me draw you a visual Val:
As I said before the game's story either builds upon the main timeline (green), or nestles in between the not further explained parts (blue). And that makes sense, since the Silmarillion ist written by the Elves, so they can't know every detail that might have happened (orange).
So: No contradictions. Just elegantly fitting into existing niches.



--- Zitat von: VectorMaximus am 18. Feb 2016, 14:07 ---The lesser rings of power were forged in Eregion as the great rings were, and were 'test runs' of the actual rings of power, mere 'essays in the craft' as Gandalf puts it. It is said they made 'many' of these rings, which could be anywhere from 20-100 reasonably, because there are 20 great rings of power.
--- Ende Zitat ---

I think this number is highly debatable, even to the point that I would question the existence of unnamed lesser rings besides the Seven and Nine at all.

After the Fall of Eregion the Silmarillion says:

--- Zitat von:  The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age ---But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Of course you could argue that Sauron maybe did not hand out all the Rings that he gathered, but to me the quote sounds like he dealt out all the Rings he had.

But as you said, it sounds logical that the Elves probably would have made some test runs or prototype Rings at the side. And it fits to Gandalfs thoughts about Bilbos Ring as you mentioned.
Though in my mind these even lesser Rings with minuscule magical powers would have been much fewer than the normal lesser Rings.


On the account of what the Rings of Power (and Magic in general) were able to do in Middleearth, I'd like to remind you of the Flood at the Bruinen Ford. ^^


--- Zitat von: The Fellowship of the Ring, Flight to the Ford ---At that moment there came a roaring and a rushing: a noise of loud waters rolling many stones. Dimly Frodo saw the river below him rise, and down along its course there came a plumed cavalry of waves. White flames seemed to Frodo to flicker on their crests, and he half fancied that he saw amid the water white riders upon white horses with frothing manes. The three Riders that were still in the midst of the Ford were overwhelmed: they disappeared, buried suddenly under angry foam.
--- Ende Zitat ---


--- Zitat von: The Fellowship of the Ring, Many Meetings ---"Who made the flood?" asked Frodo.
"Elrond commanded it," answered Gandalf. "The river of this valley is under his power, and it will rise in anger when he has great need to bar the Ford. As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released. If I may say so, I added a few touches of my own: you may not have noticed, but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders; and there were many rolling and grinding boulders. For a moment I was afraid that we had let loose too fierce a wrath, and the flood would get out of hand and wash you all away. There is great vigour in the waters that come down from the snows of the Misty Mountains."
--- Ende Zitat ---

So yes, there definetly is the kind of bombastic fireworks physicsdefying magic in Tolkien that we know from general fantasy, though it rather amplifies the existing world instead of defying it. There is always much water in the River and its mountain spring, and a flood surely does occure from time to time. But Elrond has the power to command a flood at a specific moment. The magic lies in Elronds undeniable authority over his Valley.

Yet it is like Val mentioned a very specific power. Elronds does not have power over the element water, but over the Valley of Rivendell. He probably couldn't have called a flood in the Anduin for example.
So it is hard to extrapolate this magic in a more general way.



--- Zitat von: Adrigabbro am 18. Feb 2016, 19:17 ---However, more importantly than what is stricly canon, what ultimately matters is our own interpretation of Tolkien's world.
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I do agree with you on the point of being able to interpret and fill out the stories that we have (or don't have). But imho those interpretations still have to fit into the framework that Tolkien built his stories into.

And in there (as I quoted a while ago) the kind of magic that aggressively re-forms and dominates nature is undeniably evil.
So when elven magic (the good kind of magic) is described as being subtle, it means that their magic does not change the nature of things, but instead enhances or refines their natural abilities.
Like the Flooding of the Bruinen, which is in and of itself a perfectly fine thing to do for a river.

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: Adamin am 21. Feb 2016, 19:13 ---Let me draw you a visual Val:
As I said before the game's story either builds upon the main timeline (green), or nestles in between the not further explained parts (blue). And that makes sense, since the Silmarillion ist written by the Elves, so they can't know every detail that might have happened (orange).
So: No contradictions. Just elegantly fitting into existing niches.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Ok, I made a little further research on the topic, and, yes, the game's timeline would be legitimate in a very purely theoretical perspective.

But, as I previously wrote, what doesn't convince me at all is that clear disruption of that common law in the lore that we referred to.
Celebrimbor using the One Ring, and, at the top of all the things that I oppose, the fact that Celebrimbor was needed in order to 'perfect' the One Ring (the reasons are the ones I already mentioned, especially Sauron's complete knowledge of the Rings of Power's secrets, his conception of 'needing help' and the perfect essence of the One Ring once it was forged by his true Master).
Sorry, but I don't see so much elegance in dealing with these events, even though I respect the attempt the developers did  :)
In its sequel's trailer (I guess), Galadriel is shown making a true statement about the One Ring's true and ineluctable evil and dangerous nature.
Maybe, we will hear other wise words from her that will probably make me change idea a bit  ;)

I agree with everything you wrote about Magic.

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