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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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Walküre:
I'm afraid it does contradict the lore though.
Celebrimbor was never aware of the One Ring until Sauron's revelation, nor did he ever contribute to its creation.
This vision is still contradictory, no matter which side we decide to look at it from  :)
Again, I don't want to persecute that game, but it's also true that it shouldn't theoretically be possible constructing solid lore considerations upon it.

Ok, maybe I didn't explain correctly what I intended with the fact that Sauron could claim the Rings' legitimate ownership, and that those Rings could belong to Sauron at an extent.
As you rightly wrote, I meant the act of claiming something's spiritual and symbolic ownership, related deeply to the same claiming person, even if the person itself didn't create that something in the first place.
To explain things far better, the Silmarils could serve us well as a great example.

When Fëanor died, the Silmarils were yet to be gained back, and the Sons of Fëanor themselves always believed to rightly claim as theirs the ownership of those Jewels.
But, we also know that Varda had personally hallowed the very Silmarils not to make them be touched by evil hands; hands that would have thus not deserved their ownership regardless of anyone's genealogical ties with the initial creator.
And, if you permit me, I would even push myself further: regardless of the creator itself.
I think that it might be reasonable imagining that Fëanor himself must have lost his legitimate ownership of the Silmarils after the crimes he committed in Aman – parallel to what exactly happened to his Sons in Beleriand – and he therefore would have probably got his hands burnt as well if he had ever rescued his Jewels from Morgoth's hands.
The Valar exactly reminded Fëanor of this before his departure from the Immortal Lands, and we thus can see why Tulkas also remembered him where the Silmarils' Light originally came from and why Yavanna suggested him hand his creation to the Lords of Valinor, who would have made a definitely better usage out of them.
And, Aulë doesn't technically defend Fëanor during the Valar's Council and the summoning of Fëanor at their behest; he 'just' sympathetically acknowledges what difficulty might have been the departing of the creation from its creator (he never really speaks openly against the other Valar).

So, yes, I was referring to this important theme in the structure: the legitimate and 'spiritual' ownership of something and the very loss of the same due to evil deeds.
Just like Beren and Lúthien, who had never had any type of personal references to the Silmarils, were rightly worthy of holding one of them in their hands, because they truly deserved its ownership, as their following kin would have done until Eärendil; that Silmaril still belongs to the Mariner, and I really believe that Eärendil entirely and rightly deserves it, more than Fëanor could have ever done.
Therefore, what I did was basically applying this theme to Sauron in a totally evil perspective.
That's why I wrote that he could have had some reasons in claiming all the Rings as his, even if he wasn't the actual creator of all of them.
I don't really justify his actions, I'm just trying to understand what his reasons could have consisted of  ;)

I certainly disagree with you about your vision of the One Ring, and I don't really think how that quote about the evil/corruption theme could ever prove me right or wrong in any way  xD
The One Ring was not something that was originally corrupted; it was created from the beginning with the exact purpose of making a master evil artefact.
What I really disagree with the most is the fact that your vision might imply the existence of another evil 'something' that coexists beside the already existing evil Will of Sauron; so that it could seem that the One Ring (perfect and complete in itself) could be altered positively or negatively in its nature by external forces that are not the One Ring's very destruction (the only alteration of its status that could be accepted).
Yes, the secret mystery of the One Ring gets darker and darker...  :D

Regarding the Valar, if you read closely my statements you will notice that I never forgive them and always acknowledge the Archangels' faults.
But, if 'forgiving' means attributing the just merit in the final outcome and display of events, I totally forgive them  8-)
I will do some fair considerations.


* Was Fëanor eventually right when he thought that the Valar wanted to keep the Eldar in a 'Golden Cage' under their authority, as authoritarian and jealous leaders? No.
* Was Fëanor right when he thought that the Eldar would have been really free and almighty in the wild lands of Middle Earth, being even able to recreate the Bliss of Valinor in the mortal shores of the World? No.
* Was Fëanor right when he thought that he could have challenged and defeated Morgoth alone with his kin, by choosing the exile from Aman? No.
* Was Fëanor right when he thought that he could have really claimed the ownership of the Silmarils via hideous actions? No.
* Were the Valar wrong in reminding Fëanor and the Noldor of all these aspects as wiser and superior beings given their angelic nature? No.
No, no, no  :D

https://youtube.com/watch?v=lP1Xk2UcQpY
Nevertheless, I hope we could develop the I hate Fëanor/the Valar are wrong debate even further, if you want, Ada  :P


--- Zitat von: The_Necromancer0 am 13. Feb 2016, 19:52 ---What would have been Sauron's course of action had he regained the ring? (let's say Gollum danced around a little bit more and Frodo tripped into the lava meaning the Nazguls made it back in time to Mount. Doom to cease the ring)


--- Ende Zitat ---

I think that the answer is rather simple, and that we can refer to Galadriel's line in her foreseeing in TTT, whe she telepathically talks to Elrond  :)

For Sauron will have dominion of all life on this Earth, even unto the ending of the World (the End of Time).

VectorMaximus:
Hello Edain Community! :)

Due to comments in the Imladris siege thread about the 'lesser' rings of power (AKA the Magic Rings), I thought it would be prudent to make a lore page about them and compile what I know.

Note, however, that even less is known about the lesser rings then the 3, 7, or 9, so a fair portion of this will be speculation and majority views I've seen about them in discussion I've had. Now, on to the lore!

The lesser rings of power were forged in Eregion as the great rings were, and were 'test runs' of the actual rings of power, mere 'essays in the craft' as Gandalf puts it. It is said they made 'many' of these rings, which could be anywhere from 20-100 reasonably, because there are 20 great rings of power. They had no jewel and it is unknown if they were inscribed with anything.



After Sauron forged the One, he began drawing these lesser rings to him, gathering them into his hands and his vaults. They would remain there till the War of the Last Alliance, where it is believed and speculated he gave them to his captains, so that they may stand and fight against the mighty Kings and Lords of the West in their noon hour. After Barad-Dur was thrown down, these rings were dispersed, some taken by the Free Peoples, others carried away by Sauron's servants, and others still were lost in the chaos.

Sauron would be able to recover a decent portion of the rings by the War of the Ring, but instead of dispersing them so readily to his captains, he kept them to himself to amplify his power in lieu of the One. However, it would not be impossible that some select leaders, such as the Mouth of Sauron, may posess one such lesser ring. Their fates are unknown after the War of the Ring, but it seems likely that they faded and were destroyed in Sauron's ruin.

Power wise, there are conflicted opinions about the specifics.They were, to an extent, like the One Ring when it came to temptation, enticing people to protect them and use them. They would give a being strength, long life, magical ability, and the power to dominate other wills, though to a far lesser extent then the Great Rings.

Many also believe that individual rings had a particular area in which they were strongest or unique, in addition to all the other abilities listed above. Some would grant invisibility (hence why Gandalf thought Bilbo had just an ordinary Magic Ring), others greater strength and speed, and still others would allow command of a single elemental force (one would control ice, another earth, etc.). However, this must be stated that this is just widely thought speculation, and it is neither affirmed nor denied in the books.

I hope you all enjoyed, and if there is anything I missed, please fill in the blanks!

VectorMaximus

Adrigabbro:
Thanks for the topic, it was nice! :)
I didn't know there were that many lesser rings, but now that you said it it could totally be the reason behind the Lightbringers. After all, who cares if it is definitely canon or not, I believe what matters is not whether Tolkien mentioned it but rather one's interpretation of Tolkien's world.

CragLord:
Nice topic. ;)
I always like those misteries in Tolkien world, one of them was about lesser rings.
I totally agree that lesser rings were able to boost its user with some magical powers, but again I am not in favour that lightbringer (with or without these lesser rings) be able to do bending of elements. Simply as you noted it is just speculation and mainly individual opinion that those lesser ring were able to grant power over elements. To be honest to me that idea sounds absurd. Greater rings had that power and their users were in position to use some control over elements (mainly in preserving way, supportive way), but lesser rings, let's try to be objective. I think if lesser rings were able to grant their users some power over elements, that power certanly won't be so great (so lightbringers could do that kind of elemental bending) as it is from great rings of power.
I am more in favor that idea about lesser rings could be used in case of lightbringers, but mainly in supporing purposes, some healing enchantment etc.

PS. Adrigabbro, I think that lot of dedicated users here care is it canon or not. Lore precise facts are guidelines, and they should be followed. I am totaly aware that we can't do that always, but again, this lightbringer case is something where we should be precise, I would like to play with cool elven benders, but no matter how much it is cool and epic, I now it is not canon and it is something which kills my gameplay experience and global picture of Tolkien world. Again this is my opinion.

Best regards,
CragLord 

Walküre:
As you can see, I merged the previous thread about the Lesser Rings with our beloved and monumental Lore Corner  :)
I hope we will be able to create a broader debate about Magic as well; there already are valid contributions, here.

Regarding the Lesser Rings, I simply agree with Crag.
It's highly unlikely that they could grant such an impressive knowledge in bending the elements; I would rather think about minor magical features.
Not even Galadriel or Elrond could do it without 'certain conditions' (for example, being within their own millennial realm/environment to display extensive and destructive types of Magic).
Not all the Ainur as well could precisely do it.

We are talking about Earth, Fire, Air and Water, the founding components of Arda itself  8-)
I would say that the only Rings that were proven capable of maximising so much their bearer's power/control over Nature/World are the Three Rings and the One Ring.

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