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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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Walküre:
Melkor, I absolutely agree with you that the restrictions placed upon the Istari are a real physical modification (diminished powers, authority and sealed memory), ordered by the Valar and enforced regardless of the Wizards' will.
And, I know pretty well the difference between being an Istar and being an Ainu, as this is probably what you were referring to.

Therefore, I don't really think my statement was overestimating anyone.
I know for sure that the Istari are vulnerable too, and I accept the reference to Gandalf in the Battle of the Five Armies.
But, that is Gandalf the Grey; I was talking about Gandalf the White  :)

I exactly drew a distinction by stressing the fact that Gandalf the White 'came in the World' again much more Maia-like than ever, albeit still not reaching, obviously, the level of a full-empowered Ainu.
I wrote that the Witch King could have thus never subdued Gandalf the way he did in the film, and not that Gandalf would have necessarily won.

Melkor Bauglir:
Hmpf, I have to admit, that my grammar in Tolkien's world isn't always perfect. Eventhough I felt strange about "Istari" and "Ainur", because I later this evening used the term in singular and realised it was the same, which I found weird. (For proof, that I'm not making this up to safe myself: http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,28706.msg430790.html#msg430790 :D).
And I realised of course you were referring to Gandalf the White. It is in my opinion a totally valid point of yours that this Gandalf is more "angelic" (even in a physical way, since he seems to be less of a physical burden for Gwaihir). However, I still stand by my point that even such a distant being can be killed or at least released from his existence in Middle Earth. The classical Gandalf the White scenes are (if I'm not mistaken) mostly scenes, when he uses the inherent light of his character, therefore he is literally the opposite of the Witchking, since a revealed Gandalf is a beacon of hope for the free people of Middle Earth and kind of their defender when all else fails (curing of Theoden, his defense of Minas Tirith), while the revealed Witchking is a being of despair and shadow.
Actually this is much clearer in the books, since most people call the Lord of the Nazgûl the Witchking, a title which is practically never used in the books, where he is mostly just "The Black Rider" (if this is not the case for other versions, I'd be glad to hear that ;)). There is a certain symmetry between the White and the Black Rider, therefore it would be just and fair if both of them are in the same category of power -something they apparently are!

Now, I'm afraid, I'm not really pointing out things we disagree about. IMO, the main reason, why the Witchking should have never killed Gandalf in the books is exactly this symmetry, since they are sort of the opposite side of a single coin, so to speak, eventhough probably only in the ways mentioned above.
However this symmetry is basically not there in the movies (which I don't really mind, since it's more of a purist thing, I'm glad to abandon for a cinematic masterpiece where things like that would be overkill and disturb the action), so considering the movie scene: Gandalf should have been dead.
However, because of this symmetry argument, I'd agree with you, that the Witchking couldn't kill Gandalf. I'd add in fact that this counts vice versa, too, mainly for storytelling arguments!


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Adamin:
Ooooh, someone was just waiting to jump onto this Topic! :D

Yes I know, Olorin the Maia is not the same as Gandalf the Wizard in terms of power. It's just a nice little shorthand to describe that Gandalf the White was kinda a big deal. ;)


--- Zitat --- I'm not sure, if this destroys his spirit or just the old man
--- Ende Zitat ---
I'm pretty sure it would just destroy his physical body. As you yourself refered to Sarumans death, there it is described that his body fell apart, but there was something rising up from it and getting blown away (rejected) from the West.

As I said, I don't have my LotR sources with me atm, so I can't look it up. But I will try to find it as soon as I can. I think it was a small Paragraph about the Black Captain prior to his arrival at Minas Tirith in Return of the King. If someone else finds it, go ahead and post it. ^^

Walküre:
That's what I wanted to say, Melkor; Gandalf could have indeed stood firm and tried to fend off the Witch King with honour, regardless of the final outcome of the fight.
I hope we can agree on this  :)

And, regarding the Istari and their physical body, I think I can make a valuable and reasonable speculation  xD

Firstly, it's a bit of a tricky matter because the Istari are not exactly like the Ainur for their known restrictions.
But, I think we should start with considering the Ainur's basic characteristics: taking for granted that – as long as an Ainu decides to take a physical form – their body and spirit are deeply connected, if then the physical dimension is destroyed for any reason, the spirit will result in being damaged too, ending up with losing some powers or properties.
There is a pretty clear explanation in the Silmarillion about the Ainur and the physical form they decided to turn into; there is also a significant reference to this when Lúthien convinces Sauron to lay down his magical control of Tol-in-Gaurhoth, reminding him that Huan could have deprived him from his body (with extremely negative consequences) and that he would have had to respond of his failure to his Dark Lord.

I don't have these quotations at hand, now, for time reasons.
But, I hope you will trust me  :D

Returning now to the Istari, they can obviously die and lose their old body (which is not 'old' in potency and energy, though).
I would thus suggest that their spirit, instead of having the possibility to linger and take back part of its past capabilities as the Ainur can, doesn't have the chance, anymore, to regain power or to take again a physical form (unless they are admitted to Valinor).
Saruman's spirit will thus wander forever in the World, banned from Aman, harmless and hopeless.

Hamanathnath:
I got a question about the One Ring.  I'm sorry if this has been asked already.  I did quickly look over this thread to see if this was asked, but I might have missed something.

Now from the Movies, and I assume the books too, though I have never read them, that the Putting on the One Ring makes you invisible, or at least invisible to the Normal World, I think it puts you in this sort of "Wraith Dimension", though correct me if I'm wrong. 

So my question is not why does it make you invisible, but actually, Did Sauron want the One Ring to do that?  If so, why?  What purpose does that serve?

Thanks in advance.  :)

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