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Autor Thema: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates  (Gelesen 41689 mal)

Adamin

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #15 am: 14. Apr 2015, 06:29 »
I always wanted to know:
Where exactly is Durin's Folk's dwelling in the Blue Mountains? I found only 3 answers, and they were all different - one stated it was in the Southern Blue Mountains, south of the spur (MERP wiki); another stated it was in the central or southern part of the Northern Blue Mountains, built over the survived ruins of Nogrod (LOTR wiki); and the last location I found was in the Northern Blue Mountains beyond the Little Lune river, a few miles north of Belegost which survived south of the Little Lune (Tolkien Gateway).
Which one of these is true? Or is there a map showing the so called 'Thorin's Halls', the Little Lune and the ruins of Belegost?

So wait, you're talking about the dwellings in the 3. Age, not about the ancient dwellings of Nogrod and Belegost?

ThorinsNemesis

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #16 am: 14. Apr 2015, 06:34 »
Yes, the 3rd age place where Thorin settled while in exile.

"A darkness is coming... It will spread to every corner of the land!"

Adamin

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #17 am: 28. Apr 2015, 22:23 »
I think I found something for your question by accident today. While looking up Daín in the Appendix of the Lord of the Rings "of Durins Folk", I found a passage that said Thorin and Thraín made their new home in the East of the Ered Luin, beyond the Lhûn.

I don't know if there are other passages about "Thorins Halls", but I suspect that this is the only hint we have. And since Thorins Folk came from the South through Dunland to Eriador, I suspect that beyond the Lhûn means to the northwest of the River.

That would place the Halls somewhere on the eastern slopes of the northern Ered Luin, which in turn Tolkien Gateway is closest to.

ThorinsNemesis

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #18 am: 30. Apr 2015, 15:03 »
Thanks, Adamin, for the answer. Now at least I know Thorin's halls were probably located a bit south of the Little Lune, east of the Lune river.  xD

"A darkness is coming... It will spread to every corner of the land!"

Adamin

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #19 am: 17. Jun 2015, 00:33 »
While beginning to finally read the Silmarillion, I found an interesting paragraph in the foreword: Tolkiens Letter to Milton Waldman. The Letter is basically a really good summary of the Silmarillion. It also mentions some informations about Sauron and the Rings of Power.

Zitat
He [Sauron] rules a growing empire from the great dark tower of Barad-dûr in Mordor, near to the Mountain of Fire, wielding the One Ring.
But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants.

[...]
Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger.
- J.R.R. Tolkien: Letter 131 to Milton Waldman -

I found that very interesting, because I always assumed that Sauron was weakened through the loss of the One Ring. This paragraph though makes the Ring sound more like a focus for Saurons power: He was stronger with it, but didn't loose that without it.

So that would mean that Sauron diminished after the Battle of the Last Alliance not (only) because of Isildur cutting off the Ring, but (also) because of the fight with Elendil, Gil-Galad, and Co. that he lost, if I understand this correctly.

Then again, it's not exactly clear what it means with 'some other seizing and becoming possessed of it'. Is Isildur claiming the Ring, or Gollum wearing it, already enough to cut of Sauron from his power, or do you actually have to use the Ring for that?

Nevertheless, knowing this would have been really useful in the Poll for the most powerful being in Middle-earth. Mighta changed some minds... xD

hoho96

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #20 am: 19. Jun 2015, 08:48 »
Interesting indeed. You got me intrigued to read the Silmarillion again  xD

It appears that anyone, regardless of his power, if got hold of the ring, can cut Sauron off from that power.
Zitat
Unless some other seized it
However that doesn't mean that the new possessor can use that power unless he has the strength and will to do it
Zitat
if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature
So i believe that Isildur, gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, (sam?) Were able to prevent Sauron from taping to his  power by simply not giving up the Ring, while still non of them got what it's required to actually use that power to its limit.

Adamin

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #21 am: 19. Jun 2015, 10:26 »
I'm not sure about this. It kinda sounds "too easy" like this, don't you think? Just hold the Ring and Sauron will be powerless.

We do have a distinction between wearing the Ring (like Gollum or Frodo), and actually using the Ring (like Galadriel or Gandalf would have done). I think it goes more in that direction, if you're trying to tap into the power of the Ring, then Sauron cannot use it himself.

Isildur might have been sufficiently strong and heroic to challenge Sauron and use the Ring. Gollum and the Hobbits on the other hand are just different by nature I'd say.

Walküre

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #22 am: 24. Jun 2015, 04:40 »
Yes, there is a clear distinction between 'humble' and 'ordinary' people/characters like Frodo or Gollum and powerful and magical beings like Galadriel, Elrond or Gandalf (some of the Wise) when we talk about using or, better, imagining to use the One Ring.
Galadriel clearly explaines that only a powerful and strong will, not necessarily evil, but trained in power and domination, can at least try to use the power of the One; she says these things when she is asked by Frodo if he could ever try to use the power of the One to control the other ring bearers.
Frodo could have thus never used it to dominate or harm other people, because he didn't have a naturally strong and authoritative will and he never wanted to harm anyone in the first place; but this sort of 'weakness' turns out eventually to be an advantage for him, since, due to his humble and 'simple' nature, he was never tempted to use it in search of power and dominion on others.

The Wise could have certainly done incredible things with the One Ring, but, even if moved by good intentions (like defeating Sauron), all their actions would have eventually turned out to be terrible and evil, becoming possible new dangerous tyrants of the World, and Sauron would have returned anyway because, if the OR remains in the World, he can never be completely defeated and his spirit endures; so, we can quite easily assumed that the Wise could have never defeated completely Sauron with the One Ring, and that's why they wisely avoided this option (obviously some more easily than others  :P), knowing that it would have not been the real and final solution of all the problems.

I personally think that the real and central matter about the OR is what kind of threat it represents for the World and how.
I will explain myself better: in LOTR (both books and films) it naturally and rightly seems that the OR is the ultimate evil and powerful object that would grant invincibility and sensational powers (at a great cost if the person is not Sauron himself) if possessed by someone, and that's why everyone seeks and longs its possession (especially Sauron of course) or its destruction for the sake of the entire Middle Earth; that's why also there are often hints and speculations about what it could happen if Elrond, Galadriel or Gandalf used it.

But, if we consider the Silmarillion and thus watch all the portrait in its entirety, we will discover that the OR never actually grants any sort of invincibility, neither to Sauron himself, and that it gives great powers 'only' to everyone but Sauron himself.
Sauron never created it with the intention of extending his powers or achieving invincibility, being himself already a Maia; it was created with the purpose of controlling the other Rings of Powers, but, more importantly, with the intention to ineluctably tie Sauron's very evil essence and spirit to an almost indestructible material object, making flow in it all his dark will and longing for absolute domination, so that he could have never been defeated or forever lost his powers if his spirit of a Maia had been violently parted from his physical body (death), because the spirit of the Ainur, even though immortal, can too diminish and suffer a gradual loss of powers if their physical bodies are severely damaged or completely destroyed (what happened to Sauron when Ilúvatar destroyed Númenor).

The OR in fact grants dominion 'only' to Middle Earth, while it has practically no influence on the Undying Lands or Númenor, since Sauron, despite openly wearing it and being at his full powers, was obliged to kneel in front of Ar-Pharazôn and completely surrender to the Númenoreans; and Sauron could never use it in Númenor as a prisoner to try to escape or entrance the númenorean King, that was never interested in this object.
Sauron was forced to use all his abilities of deceit and persuasion, and he succeeds only after years.

So, I think that that the central matter is that the OR represents the embodiment of the very dark will of Sauron, his spirit and his powers; Sauron, in the War of the Ring, seeks it desperately not to extend his powers, but to regain them and to achieve the physical body and powers that he had in the Second Age, and this obviously equals to be practically invincible, since, in the late Third Age, Númenor doesn't exist anymore and the Free People could have never hoped for the arrival of the Host of the Valar  :)
That's why the Wise always wisely decided not to use it, understanding that the OR, before being a possible tool to use, is primarily the objectified evil and deceitful will of Sauron, and thus can't be used successfully for any good purpose.
« Letzte Änderung: 24. Jun 2015, 04:49 von DieWalküre »

Adamin

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #23 am: 6. Jul 2015, 01:18 »
I mostly agree Walküre, but on one point. As i quoted above, Tolkien states that the One Ring does strengthen Saurons Powers.

Zitat
While he [Sauron] wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'.
- J.R.R. Tolkien: Letter 131 to Milton Waldman -

Tolkien also says later that Binding his being to the Ring was a necessary weakness, that Sauron conciously had to introduce.
Nevertheless you're right with the Ring being theembodiment of the dark will of Sauron, and the Wise ones not using it out of fear of becoming new dark lords themselves.



By the way:
I really like the Letter to Milton Waldman. There are so many friggin cool details in there. xD

Ever wanted to now what the usage of magic in Middle-earth meant to Tolkien?

Zitat

Anyway all this stuff is mainly concerned with Fall, Mortality, and the Machine.



Both of these will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective, – and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices instead of development of the inherent inner powers or talents — or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of dominating: bulldozing the real world, or coercing other wills.

The Machine is our more obvious modern form though more closely related to Magic than is usually recognised.


[...]

But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation.

The 'Elves' are 'immortal', at least as far as this world goes: and hence are concerned rather with the griefs and burdens of deathlessness in time and change, than with death. The Enemy in successive forms is always 'naturally' concerned with sheer Domination, and so the Lord of magic and machines;
Tolkiens Letter No. 131 - To Milton Waldman

Adamin

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #24 am: 8. Jul 2015, 22:46 »
On another note:

I just found a great paper about Khuzdul. In it the author states that Gimlis curse in Fellowship was improvised, and that David Salo (one of the Main Translators on all films) reverse-engineered it just now for the Hobbit into his Neo-Khuzdul.

Zitat
îsh kakhfê ai-'d-dûr-rugnul!

May my excrement be poured upon the naked-jawed (ones)!

That wasn't really nice indeed.

Here's the paper by the way:
http://triceratops.brynmawr.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/10066/15353/Amram_thesis_2015.pdf?sequence=1

hoho96

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #25 am: 9. Jul 2015, 06:04 »
Gmli Pls  [uglybunti]
I've never thought it was an improvisation! You see, that's why the LotR trilogy was great.
It's filled with amazing performances and improvs all over  xD

Ushnot

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #26 am: 9. Jul 2015, 12:52 »
That's really a great paper, thanks for sharing it, Adamin. Since I'm both interested in philology (I'm studying Latin and Greek) and a huge fan of the dwarves, I've just devoured this essay.
I wasn't really aware of the fact, that there were indeed so few forms of Khuzdul by Tolkien himself (he really wanted it to be a secretive language, as it seems) and that Salo nearly had to invent everything starting from this poor basis.

Concerning the curse, i find it quite remarkable, that the imperative îsh contradicts Sao's regular paradigma of Neo-Khuzdul imperatives (CiCiC, if i remember correctly), certainly because it was reverse-engineered, but then you could argue, as Amram does, that it may have a subjunctive tone and therefore has this irregular form (and irregular forms are nothing new especially if you're accustomed to Greek that teems of them^^).

I just wished, that there was indeed more data, especially about the true names of the dwarves and how they're constructed, but i fear, it'll remain their secret forever...

Anyway, thanks for sharing.


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Bei Fragen zu den Sprachen Latein und Altgriechisch sowie bei etymologischen Spitzfindigkeiten stehe ich gerne via PM zur Verfügung.

Adamin

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #27 am: 24. Jul 2015, 01:34 »
Her return is 'obligated' because it's her fate and an essential path of her life as a royal High Elf from Valinor, who witnessed the Splendour of the Two Trees.
The initial Perfection of the World was inevitably marred and corrupted by the powers of Melkor/Morgoth, who used Arda (except obviously Aman) as his own personal One Ring to spread his will and evil essence; and condemned it to an ineluctable destiny of decay and corruption, something that the Three Rings momentarily slowed and stopped.
The fate of the Elves was thus already decided (even before their Awakening in Arda), and that's why the Valar wisely decided to invite the Eldar to Valinor and always persuaded to sail towards it or return; because Valinor is the only place in which the Elves can live fully according to their nature of immortal beings, without fearing corruption or decay, since Valinor was made by Immortal Beings and made immortal by them.

Galadriel obviously knows this really well and her longing for the Undying Lands is always vivid, but she is divided and worried, because, as she tells Frodo in FOTR (book), the Love of the Eldar for their creations is deep as the depth of the Sea and she doesn't want to leave her realm and condemn it to vanish along the Ages of the World; but she is also well aware that, whether Sauron regains the One Ring or the One Ring is destroyed, her realm and her powers are doomed to fade forever and her people become rustic inhabitants of darkened woods.
That's why she also personally tells Frodo that she wishes that the One Ring had never been created, and thus letting the Three Rings to allow the Elves to stay in the World for other centuries without diminishing.

Her return to Aman is obligated by these facts, the sad story of corruption, decay and disenchantment of Arda, that goes from the initial titanic wars between the Valar and Melkor, to the betrayal of Sauron with the creation of the One Ring.


Here's another kicker though... :D

Wether or not the decision of the Valar to take the Elves to Aman was wise or right is actually a pretty hard question. Even the Valar weren't 100 % sure on this. Some (amongst which Ulmo was chief) thought that the Elves should have been left to wander Middle-earth and heal the land with their gifts/skill.

So the marring of Arda is not necessary the reason for the elves to retreat to Aman, but the reason for the elves to be (or stay) in Arda and enrich it with their subcreation.

This can also be seen in the fact that the elves were never quite "at home" in Valinor. Many of them stayed in Tol Eressëa, in between Valinor and Middle-earth; Most of them stayed in Eldamar, as close to Middle-earth as possible, and i think it is even stated somewhere that the Vanyar sometimes travelled to the shores near Alqualondë to at least gaze upon Middle-earth from time to time.
That's why there is definetly a connection between the elves and the "mortal lands".

I'm not sure if the disenchantment of Arda can be seen as that simple a reason for the elves to leave Middle-earth behind. It was a factor of course, but i think the desire for healing of whoes and wounds is as much a decisionpoint as well for most elves (though Galadriel is a special case of course).

Walküre

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #28 am: 24. Jul 2015, 11:43 »

Actually I have to correct you  :P

Zitat
Wether or not the decision of the Valar to take the Elves to Aman was wise or right is actually a pretty hard question. Even the Valar weren't 100 % sure on this. Some (amongst which Ulmo was chief) thought that the Elves should have been left to wander Middle-earth and heal the land with their gifts/skill.

So the marring of Arda is not necessary the reason for the elves to retreat to Aman, but the reason for the elves to be (or stay) in Arda and enrich it with their subcreation.

Yes, it's true, but this was mainly the opinion of Ulmo.
Manwë, Varda, Mandos, Nienna, Yavanna, Aulë and Tulkas had the opposite opinion though, because they cared so much for the Elves and they were afraid that they would have been in great danger among the still-present darkness and shadows of Melkor in the World, even though he had been previously defeated and brought in chains to Valinor; and they were right, since many Balrogs had hidden themselves, and Sauron were breeding legions of Orcs, to prepare the return of his master (and you should understand it, because you are a Vala yourself Adamin  :P).
Also, we shouldn't forget that Manwë is the dearest Vala to Ilúvatar (he is not the most powerful of the Valar, but he's definitely the wisest, and from it comes his absolute authority as the King of Arda), the one who understood better its Vision/Plan; and Manwë consulted with Ilúvatar in his own mind, before taking the fundamental decision of inviting the Elves to Aman.

The Elves have indeed the power to heal the wounds, or, better, they had it in the 'young ages' of their kindred, when the World was not so dark, and I didn't deny it, nor did I say that the Elves were immediately threatened and obliged to leave due to the sad fate of the World; it is a slow and long process of corruption and decay that it obviously shows itself manifestly only in the late Third Age, but it was anyway decided long before the Awakening of the Elves, and the World had already been 'cursed' by it.
This is the saddest aspect of all the matter.

Yes, Aman is not the motherland of the Elves, but it is the only land in which they can openly and eternally live according to their nature of immortal beings, really the best place they could have ever opted for.
Tolkien often stated it in the Silmarillion, the Eldar that reached Aman, or, better, the Eldar that were born there, blessed by the Holy Light of the Two Trees (like Galadriel and the Noldorin Royal Family), achieved immeasurable and immense levels of Splendour and Knowledge, surpassing all the other Elves ever born in Middle Earth; and we know that this Splendour and Knowledge then gradually passed (obviously at different grades) to the Noldor in Beleriand, to Númenor and, then, to Arnor/Gondor.
It's quite impossible thus that the Elves feel out of place or even negatively affected by the sacred aura of Valinor, unless an evil will works in disguise and with deceiving purposes to make it happen; and this is what Melkor/Morgoth exactly did in Valinor, poisoning the mind of Fëanor and other Noldor, spreading lies according to which the Valar had invited the Eldar to Aman to contain them in a 'golden cage', and prevent them to achieve power in Middle Earth.
The Elves don't need to gaze again at the World, because they are completely satisfied and at home in an enchanted and holy realm, and the Noldor finally understood this after all their sorrows and sufferings in Beleriand and Middle Earth.
It's true, Eldamar and Eressëa are quite separated lands/realms of Aman, and are not directly subjected to the influence of the Valar, but they are still embalmed by their holy aura, that grants them 'Immortality' (Valinor+Eldamar+Eressëa=the UNDYING Lands)  :)
The 'last gaze' at the World is thus not necessary (especially for the Vanyar, because they love the Ainur and hate Middle Earth  xD) and impossible, since the Undying Lands were completely divided from Arda and placed in another dimension, exactly for 'cutting' any remaining contacts with the World/Arda; and, from the Silmarillion, we also know that the Eldar of Eldamar also travel a lot to Valinor and its extreme borders, and that, after the Kinslaying of Alqualondë and the War of the Jewels, Valinor is certainly the most populated area (and arguably always have been) since it occupies the main region of Aman, the enormous and evergreen Plain of Valinor  :)
Valinor is, whether they like it or not, the 'ultimate goal' of all the Elves, a natural desire and longing of theirs for the Sea and the Immortal Shores, something they always look at and try to resemble even if they linger in the World; Imladris and Lothlórien were in fact 'mortal reflections' of the Splendour of Aman, and even Sauron, to convince the Elves to aid him in the forging of the Rings of Power, falsely promised that they would have been able to recreate the Bliss of Eressëa or Valinor itself.

The Wounds of the World come from all the evil deeds of Melkor and his numerous servants, direct effects of the Ineluctable Faith of the World.
« Letzte Änderung: 24. Jul 2015, 11:55 von DieWalküre »

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #29 am: 28. Jul 2015, 19:25 »
in the sillmarilion sauron became a giant bat if im not mistaken