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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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Walküre:
Just for the sake of the discussion, I would like to redirect everyone to a very specific explanation of the Unseen World given by Tolkien Gateway, based on passages of the Silmarillion and LOTR.

It's basically another dimension, mainly 'inhabited' by powerful spiritual creatures of all sort, good and evil.
And, if I understood rightly, the difference between the two dimensions is very narrow in Aman, and the Elves of Valinor can exist in both  :)

Though, I can't find any explanation why the One Ring can grant this particular property.

VectorMaximus:

--- Zitat von: Adamin am  9. Mär 2016, 22:10 ---

--- Zitat --- So if invisibility was built into the ring back when he could be fair, it could also serve as a way of him escaping defeat.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Back when he was fair, means also back when he could take any form he wanted. Why should he Need to turn invisible then in order to flee, when he just as well Change his form into something unnoticeable, or maybe completely leave his Body behind?
(though I'm not 100 % sure if Sauron could have leaft his Body...)
--- Ende Zitat ---

Fair enough, but being invisible is in my opinion a better escape method then transforming. You are still able to open any necessary doors, grab tools or objects you may want, and you cannot be seen, obviously(though not untouchable, to be fair).


--- Zitat von: Adamin am  9. Mär 2016, 22:10 ---

--- Zitat ---Sauron loses the Ring because he gets cocky off his victory over the 2 High-Kings, personally. He's not expecting Isildur or anyone being able to defeat him at this point. That's why he goes to 'humiliate' his enemies in killing Isildur by choking, to serve as an example of his power.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Nope.
Just in the movie version.
In the book Sauron lost in an epic brawl against Gil-Galad AND Elendil AND Elrond AND Cirdan AND Isildur, all at once. Sauron was already lying defeated on the ground (after killing Gil-Galad and Elendil) when Isildur stepped up and cut the One Ring off his finger.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Yeah I know that, the whole 'Sauron got cocky' is just my way of explaining away the movie beginning, which just really annoys me to be honest. We could have had such an epic brawl!

bookworm1138:
i was of the belief that, from reading the books, the invisibility came as a result of the Rings of Power dominating their bearers. that would explain why the Dwarves never turned invisible (because they were hardier), and why the Elven Rings never turned their bearers invisible, since they were not made by Sauron and not designed for dominating others. that is why Tom Bombadil didn't turn invisible when he put on the Ring, as his power was greater than that of Sauron (whether you want to believe that Tom is Eru or a personification of Nature, it stands to reason that either A] Eru cannot be conquered by Sauron, a being of lesser might than Melkor/Morgoth, who himself is below Eru in power, or B] Sauron's power was not yet strong enough that he could overcome ALL of nature, though Elrond hinted in The Council of Elrond that, given time, he would be strong enough and then Tom would fall at the very last)

Fine:

--- Zitat von: bookworm1138 am 10. Mär 2016, 21:01 ---i was of the belief that, from reading the books, the invisibility came as a result of the Rings of Power dominating their bearers. that would explain why the Dwarves never turned invisible (because they were hardier), and why the Elven Rings never turned their bearers invisible, since they were not made by Sauron and not designed for dominating others. that is why Tom Bombadil didn't turn invisible when he put on the Ring.
--- Ende Zitat ---

Makes sense, I can get behind that. Although I do wonder if the Nine Rings of Men did turn their bearers invisible - In my head, I think they did not, but were instead worn openly as signs of power, as is the nature of Men (who were deceived by Sauron); wanting to be superior to others and showing their status.
I wonder at what point the Nine became the wraiths they were during the War of the Ring; since they do not need to wear their rings to remain invisible (iirc they did not wear the rings in the Third Age). I also wonder why Sauron took their rings from them - was he planning to use them on other men to create even more Ringwraiths?

lord_ellessar:

--- Zitat von: Adamin am 13. Apr 2015, 01:42 ---
--- Zitat von: Der Dunkle König am 11. Apr 2015, 00:01 ---I'm aware of the fact, that "fly" can mean "flee". But can you prove that Tolkien meant "flee" in this special case? That's what I doubt, not that it can mean "flee".

--- Ende Zitat ---

Well yes, as I said the fact that Tolkien frequently used flight in that sense seemed like a pretty good proof to me. I guess you could also look up how this specific passage was translated in a version where the translator worked closely together with Tolkien (like the german Carroux Translation for example, unfortunatly I can't look mine up atm). I suppose it is not too farfetched that this passage would also have been noticed by a translator.

But I think you're looking for proof in form of a defintive answer from Tolkien, like a letter or the like. That I guess you already know that there is none.


So okay, let's look at it from another angle. Let's assume Gandalfs perspective during his confrontation for a moment:

Gandalf who is desperately trying to get Frodo (and the Fellowship) unharmed through Moria. At the last moment the Balrog catches up with them. Gandalf knows that he is the only one powerful enough to do anything against this foe, but even this might not be enough. He is trying to stop him at the bridge, opposes him with his magic ("the dark fire will not avail you!" after which the fire of the Balrog does dwindle for a moment), and even deflects one direct blow (breaking the blade of fire).
It is at that point that Gandalf decides: "I will break the bridge under him, so that we might be able to flee."

This makes no sense if the Balrog could fly. Why should Gandalf even try this? Why would he assume that breaking the bridge will throw the Balrog off balance? The Balrog would catch up with them just a moment later. It would be annoying sure, but not really effective. This would make Gandalf pretty stupid for even trying something that would obviously be ineffectual.

But maybe Gandalf planned to wrestle the Balrog in midair and thus hinder him from flying!
That makes even less sense! First remember that the Balrog pulled Gandalf down with his whip. Gandalf did not plan to fall with the Balrog, he didn't used the bridge as spring board, deliberatly jumping into the chasm. So even if he could have prevented the Balrog to just fly back up, it was definetly not something he did by choice.
Second, could Gandalf honestly prevented the Balrog from flying? I mean yeah, the scene in the movies looks great and all and Gandalf is pretty powerful, but how exactly should that work? The winged Balrog could have regained his balance in midair and dodged Gandalf, because I suppose Gandalf can't really (quickly) change the direction in which he falls. In the movies they were both just falling. Otherwise, Gandalf would have to jump onto the flying Balrog and somehow keep hanging on him, which I'm pretty sure the Balrog would do anything against.

And this is Gandalfs Plan to stop the winged Balrog? As I said, this doesn't really paint Gandalf as a competent, foresightful character. (Which as the rest of the story shows us is exactly what he's supposed to be!)


That's why I'm pretty sure that this age old question can be with reasonable certainty answered. Of course you can choose to interpret the few passages als literally descriptive, but by doing so you're missing a lot of context.

--- Ende Zitat ---

So, I assume that the balrog is Just like a big ostrich ? :P

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