Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

[Fine]

Well, if you simply look at the situation at the Black Gate - without the destruction of the One Ring, the army of the West would have been soundly defeated. So yes, I believe Sauron did not need the One Ring to claim dominion over Middle-earth during the War of the Ring. Had it not been found by Bilbo, Gondor (and afterwards, the remaining realms of Men, Elves and Dwarves) would have fallen.

[The_Necromancer0]

Definitely, there are also another quote I'd like to bring to the table on this matter.
By Denethor as reported by Gandalf during the last debate:
"You may triumph on the fields of the Pelennor for a day, but against the Power that has now arisen there is no victory."

After this quote Gandalf goes on saying that the next assault will be bigger than the siege of Minas Tirith and finishes by telling the Captains of the West that whether they take up arms or decide to hold a siege they'll be overwhelmed. (Gandalf must be fun at parties) So it truly seems that whether or not the Ring was found Sauron would have triumphed less Elrond found that host of the Elves in the armour of the Elder Fays he desired, but even the. Nothing would have been more unsure

[-Mandos-]

Even if I think that the armies of the west would have survived longer if they hadn't marched to the black gate, I too believe that they would have slowly lost to Sauron. That is, if they wouldn't receive any help. I'm not quite sure, but I believe that the Valar would interfere if Sauron would be seizing control over middle earth. It is said, if I remember correctly, that the Valar dont want to act directly (thus sending the Istari), but I cant believe that they would let the free people fall (especially the humans who have no chance to sail to Tol Eressea).
That's a lot of would and believe, but I guess it's an interesting topic. What must happen that the Valar interefere directly?

[Walküre]

I too personally rely more on that quotation from the Silmarillion, and it's very interesting to see how the might of the Free People had been diminishing until the War of the Ring and how Sauron managed to plan his return carefully, gathering all the disbanded evil forces under his command for the last time. Beside the natural and progressive departure of the valiant Eldar from Middle Earth during the Third Age, it's also very indicative that the very descendants of Númenor had lost so much power and their previous merry days of glory had been gone.

I don't think that the Valar would have ever intervened against Sauron, if the Free People had been defeated. Of course, they have always cared about the mortals' fate and they had thus sent the Istari for the exact purpose of aiding them in what would have been their most difficult challenge. Only, the decision of the Valar for a non-intervention policy was quite absolute at the end of the War of Wrath, lest the World be devastated again by immense destruction. Adding to this, Ilúvatar itself divided Aman and Eressëa from Arda anyway, with the great Cataclysm (something that the Powers of the West could have never done themselves and could never reverse). Also, I remember a line from Galadriel in The Two Towers, when she foresees what would have happened with the triumph of Sauron: she states that the Dark Lord would have had dominion over all Middle Earth and even onto the ending of the World itself.

As much fictional this line might be, I personally find it very appropriate. The primary interest of the Valar is safeguarding the destiny of the Elves in Aman, who are bound to live until Arda itself and Aman exist (the very Ainur share this destiny). The fate of the Mortals has always been undoubtedly harsh, due to their very weaker and feeble nature; they were nonetheless granted the Gift of Ilúvatar: that is, the possibility of leaving the physical dimension and the inexorable burden of time completely, to live alongside Eru in its eternal Timeless Halls. A place that, as God itself, has always existed in the past, always exists in the present and forever shall do in the future.

Based on the prophecy of Mandos and what Manwë and Varda might know, the Good is eventually destined to prevail; not until Ilúvatar itself purifies Arda and remakes it again from the beginning (something that can only happen at the End).

[Walküre]

Good evening, gentle attendees of this thread. I have an interesting question to pose: how do you imagine the grey and sad Halls of Mandos to be?

As far as I can recall, there are no passages in the lore that describe exactly their actual geographical and physical conformation (if we can still talk about a really 'physical' dimension, as the ones in the outer ordinary World). Personally, the most convincing and accurate speculation I have ever read so far is the one shown in this detailed map of Valinor and also in other articles here and there on the Internet.

Based on this theory, the Halls of Mandos are actually caverns (either on the surface of the earth or excavated deep in the ground). As the lore tells, the realm of the Vala Námo/Mandos is nonetheless located in the Blessed Realm (that is, within the Pelóri), but on its westernmost and furthest ends; thus, away from the joyful atmosphere of the radiant dwellings of the Ainur and the Elves, and characterised by an evil-less sadness which is emanated mostly by the Elven souls that linger there, mourning and waiting for the proper moment to be admitted to the eternal bliss of Valinor in a living body (we know that a few spirits, as Fëanor, will never find peace again until the End).

This other picture, representing the heartfelt plea of Lúthien to the Judge Vala, seems to suggest a more mysterious and open-air concept. Anyway, I would really like to know your opinions about this significant theme 

[Shadowxgate]

I was wondering because Elrond is last living member of the house of Fingolfin and a direct descendant of Elu Thingol so does he have a claim on the High Kingship of the elves of middle earth being both the last descendant of the high king of the noldor and of the high king of the teleri? how does elven succession work? and what does it mean in the over all picture?

[Walküre]

I was wondering because Elrond is last living member of the house of Fingolfin and a direct descendant of Elu Thingol so does he have a claim on the High Kingship of the elves of middle earth being both the last descendant of the high king of the noldor and of the high king of the teleri? how does elven succession work? and what does it mean in the over all picture?

Such a pleasant topic to begin the new year with 

Well, since the whole lineage of Elrond is quite extensive, I'll try to focus on the most pivotal and conceptual points, without just listing names and facts. Let's start with saying that Elrond's ancestry is extraordinary indeed; one of the greatest of Tolkien's lore, if I may say so. Through Eärendil's bloodline he is a descendant of the Noldorin royal family that had left Aman after the end of the Noon of Valinor, and, in particular, of Turgon (the king of Gondolin); Eärendil's father, on his side, grants the Lord of Imladris a linkage to the noble House of the Edain (the noblest among Men).

Through Elwing's bloodline (his mother), Elrond is related to Elwë, the High King of the Teleri, and, most importantly, he has the holy blood of Melian (a Maia) in his own veins. So, this incredibly legendary legacy probably makes Elrond the noblest character in the Third Age by lineage, given his connection to the greatest ones of the Elves, of Men and even to the Ainur. In light of these premises and to partly answer your question: yes, Elrond could theoretically claim the title of High King of the Elves of Middle-earth without any problem.

There are some fundamental aspects that must be considered though. First of all, there is another Elf that could claim such authoritative title, and I'm speaking about Galadriel, who is widely regarded as the mightiest Elf of the Third Age and who is legitimately the only one of the Noldorin princes that survived the exile from Aman. That said, it's never explicitly stated in the books whether an Elf-maiden may ever become High Queen of the Elves and I really doubt this (even though Galadriel does hold the title of the de facto Queen of the Elves in the Third Age). But even if she could claim that title, both she and Elrond would never desire for that anyway: in the disenchanted Third Age and with the power of the Eldar continuously waning, it wouldn't have much sense to have another High King of the Elves again (and they wouldn't have the military capacity either), given that the main characters in charge of the World's defence are Men.

Also, I guess the two would never dare to make such choice, as a sign of profound respect towards the past High Kings of the Elves, who had to withstand much more terrible threats in the centuries before.

[Fredius]

I've found something very interesting while playing the Divide and Conquer submod for the Third Age Total War mod. The mod has a faction called "The Vale of Anduin", and contains units like Beornings and the Men of Anduin. However, there was another specific type of units available to the faction; Hobbits! These type of Hobbits are called the Stoor Hobbits, and I quote from Tolkien Gateway: "They were heavier and broader in build than the other Hobbits, and had large hands and feet. Among the Hobbits, the Stoors most resembled Men and were most friendly to them. Stoors were the only Hobbits who normally grew facial hair".

Now comes the interesting part. During the early Third Age these Stoor Hobbits migrated to the Shire, and became part of the population. However, because of the threat of Angmar, many Stoors decided to migrate back to Dunland or Rhovanion, and I quote again from Tolkien Gateway: "What became of those Stoors and whether they rejoined their folk in Eriador, no history tells".

This means that there are possibly Hobbits living in Rhovanion and Dunland during the War of the Ring. This information can perhaps be used by the community to propose a new idea for a possible sub-faction; perhaps an Anduin subfaction for Lothlorien, which contains both the Men of the Anduin and these Stoor Hobbits? In any case, I just thought you guys would like this information as much as I did when I discovered it .

[Walküre]

This information can perhaps be used by the community to propose a new idea for a possible sub-faction; perhaps an Anduin subfaction for Lothlorien, which contains both the Men of the Anduin and these Stoor Hobbits?

How about NO? 

[Fredius]

Well it's just an idea , but why not if I may ask? The Beornings are from the same area and incorporated into the faction, so it would make sense to have these Woodmen and Hobbits be part of the faction as well.

[Walküre]

Hobbits in Lothlórien and additional human units, of whom we know very little about? I guess the people of the woods are already well represented in the current shape of the faction, and we should always remember that Lothlórien is supposed to be a predominantly Elven faction. That doesn't mean that other races are automatically excluded (which is not the current case either), but there ought to be a measure.

Unless someone desires to intentionally spoil the faction for unknown reasons 

[Fredius]

Imladris should be a predominantly Elven faction as well if we think like that. With both Dunedain and Hobbits as part of their faction it might be called Eriador instead, but it remains Imladris, and even with all those other different folks it's still represented very well as a predominantly Elven faction.

Even if the Vale of Anduin is incorporated as a subfaction, then Lothlorien will still remain a predominantly Elven faction. Why? First of all, the Elves are even more respresented through the kingdom of Mirkwood subfaction. But also because the main fortress is Lothlorien, and you can't survive without this main fortress, while building an outpost is a choice the player can make, but is not obligated to it. If you don't want to play with the Vale of Anduin, then simply don't build their outpost .

Another point is that a subfaction doesn't necessarily mean that they are part of the main faction. Mirkwood, for example, is an independent kingdom and not part of Lothlorien. I'm not disputing the alliance both factions have, but alliances are not necessarily a criterium to incorporate certain elements into the mod. Beornings, Ents (and Huorns), Hobbits and others never officially made an alliance to the faction they currently are part of in the mod, but are still a key element to those factions.

Personally I would love to see all of Middle-Earth represented in the mod, and this includes the peoples we don't know much about. This includes Peoples like the Orocarni Dwarves, Men (and possibly Hobbits) of the Anduin, Dorwinion Elves and Men, and the list goes on. I wouldn't mind to sacrifice a bit of lore for that. But hey, that's just my personal opinion .

[Walküre]

And one should ask oneself: does Lothlórien really deserve to have 4/5 different subfactions under its control, surpassing probably even Mordor? Everything can always be perfected and new things can be added for the sake of differentiation, but the entire Middle-earth can't objectively fit in the game. How many quasi-unknown characters or races could be added to each faction then? What I tried to point out is that we always need a certain measure in things. Speaking about Lothlórien/Mirkwood, the faction is certainly predominantly Elven now (and it is exactly supposed to be so), and I in fact think that no other non-Elven elements should be implemented in its design, lest the primary nature of the very faction be altered.

It's not really a matter of 'if you don't want to use that subfaction, then don't build that outpost/building in the first place'; it's something much deeper. When I have to consider the whole faction, I consider every of its parts, and not just the things I like to make usage of. If I have to express a general judgement on a faction's shape (conceptual properties, lore, films, gameplay and the list goes on), I must necessarily focus on the whole picture to come up with a reasonable response.

Beside those aspects, there is also a just level of cinematographic atmosphere that needs to be preserved, I guess. And I'm personally really sensitive about it, as much as the pure lore; just like when we discussed about sounds in the game. Films have always been a fundamental trait of this series since BFME1, and they should always be so. Henceforth, not that I despise new additions from the pure lore, but, in this case, it's quite obvious that those concepts would require a lot of fictional (thus highly personal) thinking and their connotation would ultimately be predominantly fictional too, given the very few information at our disposal. Based on this reasoning, I would never see the propriety of altering in any way the already-balanced design of Lothlórien/Mirkwood, just to implement a mysterious kind of Hobbits or other Men of the woods 

Not even for a cup of tea, or, in this case, for some Lembas 

[Fredius]

They're not under Lothlorien's control, that's the thing. They are there to represent that whole part of the Northern realm. Beornings, Ents and Mirkwood are not under control of Lothlorien, much like that the Anduin isn't under control of anyone as well. I personally don't see a problem with adding more subfactions to certain factions, as long as it makes sense in the lore (i.e. not adding a Mordor subfaction to Rohan).

Look, the moment Edain decided to make their own version of Angmar is the moment that the mod turned from based on pure lore, to based on lore but there is always room for speculation. This way of thinking is even more strenghtened with the addition of the Ered Mithrin subfaction to Iron Hills. Why support that but not the addition of the Men of the Anduin? The same thing can yet again be said about Imladris with it's addition of the Dunedain and Hobbits.

Like you, I also love the cinematographic influences of the films, and who said we can't apply these influences to the Men (and Hobbits) of the Anduin as well? The Men of the Anduin are the ancestors of the Rohirrim, so we could use that knowledge to design the Men of the Anduin in a sense that makes them look similair to the Rohirrim, but nonetheless still different; I already have some small ideas in mind. Same could be said about the Stoor Hobbits, for which we have excellent descriptions of in the lore. So no I don't think we have that few information about them .

On the matter of balance I haven't thought about something yet. However, the more I write about these Anduin folks, the more I get the motivation to make a proposal about this faction in the Lothlorien subforums. It would be great to see what others think of this addition to Lothlorien. I will think about it a bit longer and post a thread, no worries .

[Walküre]

No one questioned the lore accuracy of such characters, but the logic of the pure lore can't always be perfectly applied to the game though, as it might often disregard aspects as gameplay or uniqueness (just think about the current unique relationship between Hobbits and Imladris). As I said, it would be quite naïve to think that the entire Middle-earth could wholly fit in the game. Lothlórien is already very much variegated at the current state of things (Lórien, Mirkwood, Beornings, Ents and Radagast), maybe even more than Imladris or Rohan. I thus can't see any need, speaking about gameplay and concepts, to implement those additional units. I envisage any new addition of that sort as potentially disruptive and unnecessary. That's my opinion.

The moment they decided to deal with Angmar in that way, they did so because the particular context of the faction permitted them to do so; in that sense, they were also forced to rely on fictional material, and I don't absolutely deem this fact negative (taking into account those precise boundaries). Their choice was thus completely justified. Yet factions like Mordor, Gondor or Lothlórien are a very different case: I don't think there is a possible ground to make reasonable comparisons with Angmar then. Angmar's premises can't be applied to Lórien. It's plainly comprehensible.

Regarding the cinematographic atmosphere that the game should preserve, your solution is a quite non-sequitur statement, as its logical deductions aren't very much coherent, in my personal view. The cinematographic issue is an issue because we can't dispose of cinematographic transpositions from LOTR (or from the Hobbit) of those characters in the first place. They're not present in the films. So, thinking to solve the dilemma via opting for a resemblance to the films' portrait doesn't resolve it indeed, because those or other choices would nonetheless be fictional anyway; a person's interpretation based on a person's own thoughts. In light of these considerations, I think this issue just can't be dealt with properly, if not opting for the 'Angmar-way'.

Nevertheless, since I'm always keen on reading new proposals, I'm really looking forward to that. Good luck with it