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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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Walküre:
Hobbits in Lothlórien and additional human units, of whom we know very little about? I guess the people of the woods are already well represented in the current shape of the faction, and we should always remember that Lothlórien is supposed to be a predominantly Elven faction. That doesn't mean that other races are automatically excluded (which is not the current case either), but there ought to be a measure.

Unless someone desires to intentionally spoil the faction for unknown reasons  [ugly]

Fredius:
Imladris should be a predominantly Elven faction as well if we think like that. With both Dunedain and Hobbits as part of their faction it might be called Eriador instead, but it remains Imladris, and even with all those other different folks it's still represented very well as a predominantly Elven faction.

Even if the Vale of Anduin is incorporated as a subfaction, then Lothlorien will still remain a predominantly Elven faction. Why? First of all, the Elves are even more respresented through the kingdom of Mirkwood subfaction. But also because the main fortress is Lothlorien, and you can't survive without this main fortress, while building an outpost is a choice the player can make, but is not obligated to it. If you don't want to play with the Vale of Anduin, then simply don't build their outpost :P.

Another point is that a subfaction doesn't necessarily mean that they are part of the main faction. Mirkwood, for example, is an independent kingdom and not part of Lothlorien. I'm not disputing the alliance both factions have, but alliances are not necessarily a criterium to incorporate certain elements into the mod. Beornings, Ents (and Huorns), Hobbits and others never officially made an alliance to the faction they currently are part of in the mod, but are still a key element to those factions.

Personally I would love to see all of Middle-Earth represented in the mod, and this includes the peoples we don't know much about. This includes Peoples like the Orocarni Dwarves, Men (and possibly Hobbits) of the Anduin, Dorwinion Elves and Men, and the list goes on. I wouldn't mind to sacrifice a bit of lore for that. But hey, that's just my personal opinion :P.

Walküre:
And one should ask oneself: does Lothlórien really deserve to have 4/5 different subfactions under its control, surpassing probably even Mordor? Everything can always be perfected and new things can be added for the sake of differentiation, but the entire Middle-earth can't objectively fit in the game. How many quasi-unknown characters or races could be added to each faction then? What I tried to point out is that we always need a certain measure in things. Speaking about Lothlórien/Mirkwood, the faction is certainly predominantly Elven now (and it is exactly supposed to be so), and I in fact think that no other non-Elven elements should be implemented in its design, lest the primary nature of the very faction be altered.

It's not really a matter of 'if you don't want to use that subfaction, then don't build that outpost/building in the first place'; it's something much deeper. When I have to consider the whole faction, I consider every of its parts, and not just the things I like to make usage of. If I have to express a general judgement on a faction's shape (conceptual properties, lore, films, gameplay and the list goes on), I must necessarily focus on the whole picture to come up with a reasonable response.

Beside those aspects, there is also a just level of cinematographic atmosphere that needs to be preserved, I guess. And I'm personally really sensitive about it, as much as the pure lore; just like when we discussed about sounds in the game. Films have always been a fundamental trait of this series since BFME1, and they should always be so. Henceforth, not that I despise new additions from the pure lore, but, in this case, it's quite obvious that those concepts would require a lot of fictional (thus highly personal) thinking and their connotation would ultimately be predominantly fictional too, given the very few information at our disposal. Based on this reasoning, I would never see the propriety of altering in any way the already-balanced design of Lothlórien/Mirkwood, just to implement a mysterious kind of Hobbits or other Men of the woods  ;)

Not even for a cup of tea, or, in this case, for some Lembas  :D

Fredius:
They're not under Lothlorien's control, that's the thing. They are there to represent that whole part of the Northern realm. Beornings, Ents and Mirkwood are not under control of Lothlorien, much like that the Anduin isn't under control of anyone as well. I personally don't see a problem with adding more subfactions to certain factions, as long as it makes sense in the lore (i.e. not adding a Mordor subfaction to Rohan).

Look, the moment Edain decided to make their own version of Angmar is the moment that the mod turned from based on pure lore, to based on lore but there is always room for speculation. This way of thinking is even more strenghtened with the addition of the Ered Mithrin subfaction to Iron Hills. Why support that but not the addition of the Men of the Anduin? The same thing can yet again be said about Imladris with it's addition of the Dunedain and Hobbits.

Like you, I also love the cinematographic influences of the films, and who said we can't apply these influences to the Men (and Hobbits) of the Anduin as well? The Men of the Anduin are the ancestors of the Rohirrim, so we could use that knowledge to design the Men of the Anduin in a sense that makes them look similair to the Rohirrim, but nonetheless still different; I already have some small ideas in mind. Same could be said about the Stoor Hobbits, for which we have excellent descriptions of in the lore. So no I don't think we have that few information about them :P.

On the matter of balance I haven't thought about something yet. However, the more I write about these Anduin folks, the more I get the motivation to make a proposal about this faction in the Lothlorien subforums. It would be great to see what others think of this addition to Lothlorien. I will think about it a bit longer and post a thread, no worries ;).

Walküre:
No one questioned the lore accuracy of such characters, but the logic of the pure lore can't always be perfectly applied to the game though, as it might often disregard aspects as gameplay or uniqueness (just think about the current unique relationship between Hobbits and Imladris). As I said, it would be quite naïve to think that the entire Middle-earth could wholly fit in the game. Lothlórien is already very much variegated at the current state of things (Lórien, Mirkwood, Beornings, Ents and Radagast), maybe even more than Imladris or Rohan. I thus can't see any need, speaking about gameplay and concepts, to implement those additional units. I envisage any new addition of that sort as potentially disruptive and unnecessary. That's my opinion.

The moment they decided to deal with Angmar in that way, they did so because the particular context of the faction permitted them to do so; in that sense, they were also forced to rely on fictional material, and I don't absolutely deem this fact negative (taking into account those precise boundaries). Their choice was thus completely justified. Yet factions like Mordor, Gondor or Lothlórien are a very different case: I don't think there is a possible ground to make reasonable comparisons with Angmar then. Angmar's premises can't be applied to Lórien. It's plainly comprehensible.

Regarding the cinematographic atmosphere that the game should preserve, your solution is a quite non-sequitur statement, as its logical deductions aren't very much coherent, in my personal view. The cinematographic issue is an issue because we can't dispose of cinematographic transpositions from LOTR (or from the Hobbit) of those characters in the first place. They're not present in the films. So, thinking to solve the dilemma via opting for a resemblance to the films' portrait doesn't resolve it indeed, because those or other choices would nonetheless be fictional anyway; a person's interpretation based on a person's own thoughts. In light of these considerations, I think this issue just can't be dealt with properly, if not opting for the 'Angmar-way'.

Nevertheless, since I'm always keen on reading new proposals, I'm really looking forward to that. Good luck with it  :)

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