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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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hoho96:
Interesting indeed. You got me intrigued to read the Silmarillion again  xD

It appears that anyone, regardless of his power, if got hold of the ring, can cut Sauron off from that power.
--- Zitat ---Unless some other seized it
--- Ende Zitat ---
However that doesn't mean that the new possessor can use that power unless he has the strength and will to do it
--- Zitat ---if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature
--- Ende Zitat ---
So i believe that Isildur, gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, (sam?) Were able to prevent Sauron from taping to his  power by simply not giving up the Ring, while still non of them got what it's required to actually use that power to its limit.

Adamin:
I'm not sure about this. It kinda sounds "too easy" like this, don't you think? Just hold the Ring and Sauron will be powerless.

We do have a distinction between wearing the Ring (like Gollum or Frodo), and actually using the Ring (like Galadriel or Gandalf would have done). I think it goes more in that direction, if you're trying to tap into the power of the Ring, then Sauron cannot use it himself.

Isildur might have been sufficiently strong and heroic to challenge Sauron and use the Ring. Gollum and the Hobbits on the other hand are just different by nature I'd say.

Walküre:
Yes, there is a clear distinction between 'humble' and 'ordinary' people/characters like Frodo or Gollum and powerful and magical beings like Galadriel, Elrond or Gandalf (some of the Wise) when we talk about using or, better, imagining to use the One Ring.
Galadriel clearly explaines that only a powerful and strong will, not necessarily evil, but trained in power and domination, can at least try to use the power of the One; she says these things when she is asked by Frodo if he could ever try to use the power of the One to control the other ring bearers.
Frodo could have thus never used it to dominate or harm other people, because he didn't have a naturally strong and authoritative will and he never wanted to harm anyone in the first place; but this sort of 'weakness' turns out eventually to be an advantage for him, since, due to his humble and 'simple' nature, he was never tempted to use it in search of power and dominion on others.

The Wise could have certainly done incredible things with the One Ring, but, even if moved by good intentions (like defeating Sauron), all their actions would have eventually turned out to be terrible and evil, becoming possible new dangerous tyrants of the World, and Sauron would have returned anyway because, if the OR remains in the World, he can never be completely defeated and his spirit endures; so, we can quite easily assumed that the Wise could have never defeated completely Sauron with the One Ring, and that's why they wisely avoided this option (obviously some more easily than others  :P), knowing that it would have not been the real and final solution of all the problems.

I personally think that the real and central matter about the OR is what kind of threat it represents for the World and how.
I will explain myself better: in LOTR (both books and films) it naturally and rightly seems that the OR is the ultimate evil and powerful object that would grant invincibility and sensational powers (at a great cost if the person is not Sauron himself) if possessed by someone, and that's why everyone seeks and longs its possession (especially Sauron of course) or its destruction for the sake of the entire Middle Earth; that's why also there are often hints and speculations about what it could happen if Elrond, Galadriel or Gandalf used it.

But, if we consider the Silmarillion and thus watch all the portrait in its entirety, we will discover that the OR never actually grants any sort of invincibility, neither to Sauron himself, and that it gives great powers 'only' to everyone but Sauron himself.
Sauron never created it with the intention of extending his powers or achieving invincibility, being himself already a Maia; it was created with the purpose of controlling the other Rings of Powers, but, more importantly, with the intention to ineluctably tie Sauron's very evil essence and spirit to an almost indestructible material object, making flow in it all his dark will and longing for absolute domination, so that he could have never been defeated or forever lost his powers if his spirit of a Maia had been violently parted from his physical body (death), because the spirit of the Ainur, even though immortal, can too diminish and suffer a gradual loss of powers if their physical bodies are severely damaged or completely destroyed (what happened to Sauron when Ilúvatar destroyed Númenor).

The OR in fact grants dominion 'only' to Middle Earth, while it has practically no influence on the Undying Lands or Númenor, since Sauron, despite openly wearing it and being at his full powers, was obliged to kneel in front of Ar-Pharazôn and completely surrender to the Númenoreans; and Sauron could never use it in Númenor as a prisoner to try to escape or entrance the númenorean King, that was never interested in this object.
Sauron was forced to use all his abilities of deceit and persuasion, and he succeeds only after years.

So, I think that that the central matter is that the OR represents the embodiment of the very dark will of Sauron, his spirit and his powers; Sauron, in the War of the Ring, seeks it desperately not to extend his powers, but to regain them and to achieve the physical body and powers that he had in the Second Age, and this obviously equals to be practically invincible, since, in the late Third Age, Númenor doesn't exist anymore and the Free People could have never hoped for the arrival of the Host of the Valar  :)
That's why the Wise always wisely decided not to use it, understanding that the OR, before being a possible tool to use, is primarily the objectified evil and deceitful will of Sauron, and thus can't be used successfully for any good purpose.

Adamin:
I mostly agree Walküre, but on one point. As i quoted above, Tolkien states that the One Ring does strengthen Saurons Powers.


--- Zitat von: Adamin am 17. Jun 2015, 00:33 ---
--- Zitat ---While he [Sauron] wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'.
--- Ende Zitat ---
- J.R.R. Tolkien: Letter 131 to Milton Waldman -

--- Ende Zitat ---

Tolkien also says later that Binding his being to the Ring was a necessary weakness, that Sauron conciously had to introduce.
Nevertheless you're right with the Ring being theembodiment of the dark will of Sauron, and the Wise ones not using it out of fear of becoming new dark lords themselves.


By the way:
I really like the Letter to Milton Waldman. There are so many friggin cool details in there. xD

Ever wanted to now what the usage of magic in Middle-earth meant to Tolkien?


--- Zitat ---
Anyway all this stuff is mainly concerned with Fall, Mortality, and the Machine.

With Fall inevitably, and that motive occurs in several modes.

With Mortality, especially as it affects art and the creative desire which seems to have no biological function, and to be apart from the satisfactions of plain ordinary biological life, with which, in our world, it is indeed usually at strife.

This desire is at once wedded to a passionate love of the real primary world, and hence filled with the sense of mortality, and yet unsatisfied by it.
It has various opportunities of 'Fall'. It may become possessive, clinging to the things made as 'its own', the sub-creator wishes to be the Lord and God of his private creation.

He will rebel against the laws of the Creator – especially against mortality.
*spoiler ende*
Both of these will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective, – and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices instead of development of the inherent inner powers or talents — or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of dominating: bulldozing the real world, or coercing other wills.

The Machine is our more obvious modern form though more closely related to Magic than is usually recognised.

[...]

But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation.

The 'Elves' are 'immortal', at least as far as this world goes: and hence are concerned rather with the griefs and burdens of deathlessness in time and change, than with death. The Enemy in successive forms is always 'naturally' concerned with sheer Domination, and so the Lord of magic and machines;
--- Ende Zitat ---
Tolkiens Letter No. 131 - To Milton Waldman

Adamin:
On another note:

I just found a great paper about Khuzdul. In it the author states that Gimlis curse in Fellowship was improvised, and that David Salo (one of the Main Translators on all films) reverse-engineered it just now for the Hobbit into his Neo-Khuzdul.


--- Zitat ---îsh kakhfê ai-'d-dûr-rugnul!

May my excrement be poured upon the naked-jawed (ones)!
--- Ende Zitat ---

That wasn't really nice indeed.

Here's the paper by the way:
http://triceratops.brynmawr.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/10066/15353/Amram_thesis_2015.pdf?sequence=1

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