2. Mai 2024, 11:25 Hallo Gast.
Willkommen Gast. Bitte einloggen oder registrieren. Haben Sie Ihre Aktivierungs E-Mail übersehen?

Einloggen mit Benutzername, Passwort und Sitzungslänge. Hierbei werden gemäß Datenschutzerklärung Benutzername und Passwort verschlüsselt für die gewählte Dauer in einem Cookie abgelegt.


Select Boards:
 
Language:
 


Autor Thema: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates  (Gelesen 105632 mal)

Melkor Bauglir

  • Held von Helms Klamm
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.203
Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #105 am: 18. Feb 2016, 17:38 »
Zitat
We are talking about Earth, Fire, Air and Water, the founding components of Arda itself  8-)
Apart from that, even Narya doesn't enable Gandalf to throw fireballs left, right and center. As far as I know this refers mostly to inspiration and creating a fire inside one's heart to not give up hope. Yes, he eventually uses some fire magic, but only as Gandalf the Grey and not as his... well, ascended form as Gandalf the White. And since I highly doubt that there exists a "ranking" of power between the three elven rings, Elrond and Galadriel aren't able to do so. Of course both have control over their dominion (Elrond via the river, Galadriel e.g. by conjuring a mist to guard Eorls ride), but still: This is Tolkien's way of magic, you do not stand there bending elements (in the Avatar sense), instead you have a deep connection with the lands you live in, granting you certain abilities. (Which probably don't even originate from the Rings of Power, for people like Finrond Felagund could also use magic. And him being Galadriel's brother, I don't think the Lady of Light really has Nenya as some form of vessel, to channel a mighty rain of destruction.)
Therefore there is no way a lesser Ring of Power could grant such a devastating force -eventhough, I wouldn't totally give up the idea of a lesser ring being necessarily weaker in its direct effects on its bearer: E.g. the main power of the elven rings is keeping their dying realms still living over thousands of years. This is in a specific way much more impressive than just increase one's lifetime (effecting only the ringbearer) or making him invisible. It's an entire country we're talking about! ;)
Therefore I guess, the lesser rings do have certain powers, however I fancy them mainly as super powerfull toys, not like devices that (quote Galadriel) "was found the strength and will to govern each race". Yes, it's a movie quote, but it still holds. Yes, they are very valuable artifacts, but not more. The pure fact that not a single lesser ring is ever mentioned in the LotR (a story whose title strangely is about "rings" xD).

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
« Letzte Änderung: 18. Feb 2016, 17:44 von Melkor Bauglir »

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #106 am: 18. Feb 2016, 18:22 »
Galadriel and Elrond do bend elements (obviously, not exactly like the unique way of Lightbringers) in a very extensive way.
There are a lot of hints about this fact; the most evident ones to be noticed are the manipulation of Weather, Time, the surrounding Space and the whole environment of their realm.
And, consider that we are talking about hundreds of years of constant protection.

I never really wrote that the Three Rings exactly give the ability of creating fireballs or whatsoever.
I just compared the way Galadriel and Elrond (of course, also mainly for their own innate capabilities) bend the World/Nature to the powers themselves of Lightbringers, that exactly consist of an impressive manipulation of Nature.
Also, when I referred to the elements, I was indeed referring to the elements of Arda themselves (natural aspects in their purest form); I was not specifically talking about the Three Rings, even though their very names and titles remind us of the components of Arda.

And, yes, I agree with you about Galadriel, her History, Nenya's characteristics and role in Galadriel's abilities and so on.
As you probably already saw, I think I left tons of posts about those matters in this precise section (so, yes, I have them in mind)  ;)
Posts that, I'm sorry, I don't really have the strength to write again from the beginning  :D

Adrigabbro

  • Gesandter der Freien Völker
  • **
  • Beiträge: 392
Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #107 am: 18. Feb 2016, 19:17 »
You didn't get my point.
Hell no I am not in favor of Airbender-like Lightbringers who can mess with the elements, neither of non canon stuff in general. However, more importantly than what is stricly canon, what ultimately matters is our own interpretation of Tolkien's world. Let's take the giants in The Hobbit book: there is quite a mystery around them and we don't know if they are stone, troll-like, humanoid giants or even real at all. Do you think Tolkien left the topic unclear because he didn't have time to expand on it? I don't think so. He did it on purpose so that everyone can interpret personally. Also, according stricly to Tolkien's writings, goblins and orcs are the exact same thing and yet I bet evryone here thinks of goblins as lesser orcs. Aren't Murin and Drar starting to feel about as canon as Gothmog or Ugluk after several years of Edain? And what about Lurtz? I'm pretty sure most people here feel like he is more canon than Ugluk.
Hopefully I made my point clear this time.  :P

Back to the Lightbringers, what I meant was that having support exclusive Lightbringers who would get their """magical""" aura with lesser rings was an idea I'm very comfortable with.


"That still only counts as one!"

Adamin

  • Edain Ehrenmember
  • Vala
  • *****
  • Beiträge: 9.861
  • Und das Alles ohne einen einzigen Tropfen Rum!
Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #108 am: 21. Feb 2016, 19:13 »
I'm afraid it does contradict the lore though.
Celebrimbor was never aware of the One Ring until Sauron's revelation, nor did he ever contribute to its creation.
This vision is still contradictory, no matter which side we decide to look at it from  :)
Again, I don't want to persecute that game, but it's also true that it shouldn't theoretically be possible constructing solid lore considerations upon it.

Let me draw you a visual Val:
As I said before the game's story either builds upon the main timeline (green), or nestles in between the not further explained parts (blue). And that makes sense, since the Silmarillion ist written by the Elves, so they can't know every detail that might have happened (orange).
So: No contradictions. Just elegantly fitting into existing niches.



The lesser rings of power were forged in Eregion as the great rings were, and were 'test runs' of the actual rings of power, mere 'essays in the craft' as Gandalf puts it. It is said they made 'many' of these rings, which could be anywhere from 20-100 reasonably, because there are 20 great rings of power.

I think this number is highly debatable, even to the point that I would question the existence of unnamed lesser rings besides the Seven and Nine at all.

After the Fall of Eregion the Silmarillion says:
Zitat von:  The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will.
Of course you could argue that Sauron maybe did not hand out all the Rings that he gathered, but to me the quote sounds like he dealt out all the Rings he had.

But as you said, it sounds logical that the Elves probably would have made some test runs or prototype Rings at the side. And it fits to Gandalfs thoughts about Bilbos Ring as you mentioned.
Though in my mind these even lesser Rings with minuscule magical powers would have been much fewer than the normal lesser Rings.



On the account of what the Rings of Power (and Magic in general) were able to do in Middleearth, I'd like to remind you of the Flood at the Bruinen Ford. ^^


So yes, there definetly is the kind of bombastic fireworks physicsdefying magic in Tolkien that we know from general fantasy, though it rather amplifies the existing world instead of defying it. There is always much water in the River and its mountain spring, and a flood surely does occure from time to time. But Elrond has the power to command a flood at a specific moment. The magic lies in Elronds undeniable authority over his Valley.

Yet it is like Val mentioned a very specific power. Elronds does not have power over the element water, but over the Valley of Rivendell. He probably couldn't have called a flood in the Anduin for example.
So it is hard to extrapolate this magic in a more general way.



However, more importantly than what is stricly canon, what ultimately matters is our own interpretation of Tolkien's world.

I do agree with you on the point of being able to interpret and fill out the stories that we have (or don't have). But imho those interpretations still have to fit into the framework that Tolkien built his stories into.

And in there (as I quoted a while ago) the kind of magic that aggressively re-forms and dominates nature is undeniably evil.
So when elven magic (the good kind of magic) is described as being subtle, it means that their magic does not change the nature of things, but instead enhances or refines their natural abilities.
Like the Flooding of the Bruinen, which is in and of itself a perfectly fine thing to do for a river.

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #109 am: 22. Feb 2016, 11:34 »
Let me draw you a visual Val:
As I said before the game's story either builds upon the main timeline (green), or nestles in between the not further explained parts (blue). And that makes sense, since the Silmarillion ist written by the Elves, so they can't know every detail that might have happened (orange).
So: No contradictions. Just elegantly fitting into existing niches.

Ok, I made a little further research on the topic, and, yes, the game's timeline would be legitimate in a very purely theoretical perspective.

But, as I previously wrote, what doesn't convince me at all is that clear disruption of that common law in the lore that we referred to.
Celebrimbor using the One Ring, and, at the top of all the things that I oppose, the fact that Celebrimbor was needed in order to 'perfect' the One Ring (the reasons are the ones I already mentioned, especially Sauron's complete knowledge of the Rings of Power's secrets, his conception of 'needing help' and the perfect essence of the One Ring once it was forged by his true Master).
Sorry, but I don't see so much elegance in dealing with these events, even though I respect the attempt the developers did  :)
In its sequel's trailer (I guess), Galadriel is shown making a true statement about the One Ring's true and ineluctable evil and dangerous nature.
Maybe, we will hear other wise words from her that will probably make me change idea a bit  ;)

I agree with everything you wrote about Magic.

Saruman der Bunte

  • Held von Helms Klamm
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.286
  • Es gibt nichts Praktischeres als eine gute Theorie
Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #110 am: 22. Feb 2016, 14:07 »
I agree with Adamin on magic. What I think is an intersting topic (when talking about the Rings of power) is wether it was a mistake by Sauron to forge the One Ring. His plan to dominate the Elven and Dwarven lords failed, all he got from the plan were 9 mighty servants. And it even enabled his enemies to seperate a big part of his power from him, and to destroy him. Now, the interesting thing is that Sauron was originaly even extremly powerful without the ring, before he lost his form (when Númenor was destroyed). If he had taken his Ring with him, I am sure that it would have been destroyed aswell. So it's continued existence saved him back then.

But of course, if Sauron had started to build up his military power right at the beginning of the 2nd age, he might have been able to conquer Middle-Earth before Númenor got so mighty.
« Letzte Änderung: 22. Feb 2016, 14:12 von Saruman der Bunte »


"Zwei Dinge erfüllen das Gemüt mit immer neuer und zunehmenden Bewunderung und Ehrfurcht, je öfter und anhaltender sich das Nachdenken damit beschäftigt: Der bestirnte Himmel über mir, und das moralische Gesetz in mir."
                   -Immanuel Kant-

Dank an CMG für das Banner und den Avatar!

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #111 am: 22. Feb 2016, 17:19 »
I agree, at an extent.
Sauron's plan eventually failed, but it really failed once the One Ring was finally destroyed.
Until that moment, the purpose behind the One Ring had always revealed itself as something really ingenious!
As I always say, Sauron is just smart, definitely one of the most intelligent beings in Arda's history, and for this trait always feared by the Wise.

Sauron's purpose was not at all – apart from having the chance to control the Elves' and the other races' minds – achieving even more direct personal power, being himself already at the apex, as a Maia in Middle Earth with no restrain on his capabilities.
His true purpose was exactly tying his essence/Will/powers to a material dimension, so that he would have avoided the ineluctable dispersion of his powers had he been defeated by any means, especially in case he had had his own body destroyed (as it exactly happened in Númenor).

Therefore, we could say that he had kind of foreseen what could have happened and exactly happened later in Númenor; and, as you rightly wrote, he would have been killed anyway by the Wrath of Ilúvatar even with the One Ring on his finger, and thus hid it in Middle Earth to make it serve its exact purpose.

Yes, Sauron is just smart  xD

Melkor Bauglir

  • Held von Helms Klamm
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.203
Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #112 am: 22. Feb 2016, 18:37 »
Zitat
Yes, Sauron is just smart  xD
Well... I'd say that to my knowledge no one in the entire history of Middle-Earth is smart, at least not the way anyone on planet Earth uses this noun.
He truely is deceptive and knows how to turn someones powers against him and he is smart in comparison to others. Then again I think that isn't saying much. ;)

Speaking about the One Ring, he had technically two purposes:
1. Being the Master Ring, able to enhance and to a certain degree control or at least incluence the other Rings. Even the Elven Rings were influenced by the One rendered eventually powerless when the One was destroyed. And I might be totally wrong about this, but I thought once Galadriel speaks about the fear of her "battle" with Sauron if he should achieve the One. Also the Eldar didn't use their Rings when Sauron had the one, did they? Therefore the Lord of the Rings has of course no effect on them or their works / realms, since he can only act via the Rings.
2. As a backup plan if anything else failed or a something like a "save-button" (;)) since he was able to lock away his powers inside the Ring, corrupt Numenor, survive its fall and then take back his Ring to once again hold his full power of will (meaning not his physical form since that was destroyed!).

Zitat
But of course, if Sauron had started to build up his military power right at the beginning of the 2nd age, he might have been able to conquer Middle-Earth before Númenor got so mighty.
Actually the reason why he did lose the Last Alliance war was his absense from Middle-Earth, meaning Gil-Galad could recover from the war in Eregion and gather a large enough army to defeat him together with Elendil's kingdoms. Therefore you are right, but the reason is even more specified in Tolkien's works!


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #113 am: 22. Feb 2016, 19:42 »
That word had a quite obvious less serious shade, to point out what I have already referred to in previous posts, but in a more informal way  ;)
Probably, ingenious, farsighted, prophetic, insidious and other akin words would recreate the 'Sauron momentum', if it's necessary  8-)

Exactly, those two main purposes.

Therefore, I think – as events manifested themselves – that the last 'backup plan' was eventually the most ingenious, which turned out to be actually the most useful characteristic for Sauron's own schemes.
Of course, the capability of mastering the other Rings was the core of the One Ring's creation, but, I believe, it was finally proven to be not so significant, at least in a very direct and pragmatic perspective.

I explain myself more clearly: the Elves hid almost immediately the Three Rings (the most longed ones by Sauron) and nonetheless organised a fierce opposition to Sauron.
After the Dark Lord's downfall at the slopes of Mount Doom, Galadriel and Elrond were finally able to use freely their Rings and establish the famous enchanted sanctuaries/realms that would have become legendary in the late Third Age and a Shield for the Free People against the Evil in the War of the Ring.
Probably, the most significant implication of the One Ring's mastering essence was finally unveiled when the same Ring was destroyed and consequently caused the other ones to have their powers vanished; resulting in a bitter outcome for the Elves (even though they had won the Evil), as the clear sign of their ineluctable decline in the grey and disenchanted Middle Earth.

While, and it's a big 'while', the 'backup' aspect allowed Sauron to escape a total defeat from the destruction of Númenor, and then, in a similar context, be able to survive in the World like a Shadow during most of the Third Age, to recollect his powers and launch the final assault against the Free People in the War of the Ring (and finally seek for the One Ring itself).

So, at last, which one of the two 'paid off' better, and theoretically resulted having a greater 'role' in the sorrows of many more souls of Arda?  :P

VectorMaximus

  • RPG Team [en]
  • Pförtner von Bree
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 85
  • "This we have sworn, and not lightly"
Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #114 am: 22. Feb 2016, 20:03 »
The Backup essence of the one paid off more, and brought more pain overall, I think. Because though the controlling aspect resulted in the failing of the Elven Rings, that woe befell only the Elves (dear though they are to me). On the other hand, Sauron returning in general was bad for everyone. Hence, the 'Horcrux' effect of the One was the attribute that was its greatest purpose in my eyes, moreso than the controlling.
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Melkor Bauglir

  • Held von Helms Klamm
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.203
Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #115 am: 22. Feb 2016, 20:37 »
I think, we can all agree that, considering what historically happened, the backup-part was the more important one because otherwise Sauron would have just died permanently when Numenor fell.
However the Master Ring aspect is in my opinion massively more destructive: Just imagine an alternative timeline where the Last Alliance didn't defeat Sauron. The elves wouldn't be able to use their Rings (ever!), meaning Lothlorien just straight up ending as a wasteland or at the very least losing its enchantment. Also the Nine's powers would be multiplied and I have no idea if the dwarven greed had any limits with Sauron holding the One. And just imagine the elven leaders actually using their Rings: I always imagined the One Ring mainly as corrupting his users power and turning them against him, something it'd do with the other ringbearers, too, as long as they kept using their Rings (which isn't probably not so easy to stop!). Surely, Galadriel, Elrond, Gil-Galad, etc. are very strong-minded individuals, but so was Saruman. ;) It's totally possible that one of those couldn't resist embracing their Rings power even for their own destruction.

What I'm trying to say is basically: As the name already points out the "horcrux"-aspect was the inherent defensive of the One Ring, meaning it was historically more powerful since Sauron didn't hold the Ring for that long. However his offensive capabilities, him being the Master Ring, I don't want to know what destruction he could have caused if the war ended out drawn out!

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

VectorMaximus

  • RPG Team [en]
  • Pförtner von Bree
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 85
  • "This we have sworn, and not lightly"
Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #116 am: 22. Feb 2016, 21:09 »
If the Last Alliance failed, I don't think Sauron would need the One anymore. For never before on Mortal Lands had such a host been gathered, nor ever since, and if they were defeated no hope of Victory was there for the Free Peoples. And Sauron would have been master of all Arda, for the Valar alone could defeat him then, but never again shall their host enter the world changed and cross the sea ere the ending of the World. But I get your point.

If Sauron hadn't lost the one, and it became a protracted war across all of Middle-Earth, I agree that the controlling ability would have been greater. For as you said, the loss of the 3 would have been great indeed. While I still think Lorien and Imladris would have endured (they were both established in the Second Age, after all), they would have been greatly diminished and faded all the faster. I personally don't think any of the Elven leaders are dumb enough to actually use their rings if Sauron held the One. The 3 don't have an addictive effect, to my knowledge.

And yes, the Nazgul would have become more fell indeed, but I don't think the Dwarves could have had any worse fate from their rings then what they already had. Remember that the Dwarf-Lords already wore their rings when Sauron wore the One, for they could not perceive him through the rings. So, the greed they experienced already was the worst that could happen.

Just as a general question, do you believe the dwarves of Khazad-Dum when they claim that their ring was not given to them by Sauron, but by Celebrimbor in friendship? I personally doubt it.
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #117 am: 22. Feb 2016, 22:50 »
Yes, what I wanted to stress is that very importance that the 'horcrux element' eventually had, even though Sauron's prominent desire was the control of each race via the Rings of Power.

That's why it was probably the most ingenious aspect, because it kind of worked as a life insurance for Sauron, as he had rightly guessed  ;)

As far as I know, all the Seven Rings were given to the Dwarf Lords by Sauron, once he regained them after having waged war against Eregion and Eriador.
So, either is it a lie or a wrong tale that kept on being told among Dwarves for centuries.

Adamin

  • Edain Ehrenmember
  • Vala
  • *****
  • Beiträge: 9.861
  • Und das Alles ohne einen einzigen Tropfen Rum!
Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #118 am: 23. Feb 2016, 01:02 »
Ok, I made a little further research on the topic, and, yes, the game's timeline would be legitimate in a very purely theoretical perspective.
I'll take what I can get. :D
Of course, there have to be certain compromise for an adaptation, and I can accept that you evaluate them differently.
On the other hand, I can finally kind of agree to your term of Saurons secret formula for Ringmaking. I haven't seen any clear evidence for this, until you guys reminded me that the Three Rings loose their Powers through the destruction of the One Ring. Since they haven't been made with Saurons involvement, their elemental mode of functioning still has to be connected to Sauron, otherwise their bond to Sauron (or his Ring) wouldn't make sense.



What I think is an intersting topic (when talking about the Rings of power) is wether it was a mistake by Sauron to forge the One Ring.
I wouldn't say mistake, but definetly a miscalculation on Saurons part. Putting a large part of his power into the Ring was a risk that he willingly took to master the Elves. Tolkien makes that clear, as I also quoted a while ago.




Sauron's purpose was not at all – apart from having the chance to control the Elves' and the other races' minds – achieving even more direct personal power, being himself already at the apex, as a Maia in Middle Earth with no restrain on his capabilities.
His true purpose was exactly tying his essence/Will/powers to a material dimension, so that he would have avoided the ineluctable dispersion of his powers had he been defeated by any means, especially in case he had had his own body destroyed (as it exactly happened in Númenor).

Therefore, we could say that he had kind of foreseen what could have happened and exactly happened later in Númenor;
I'm really sorry Val, but I have to vehemently disagree with that.

There is no evidence whatsoever for Sauron conciously planning for the Ring to be his bond to the world, nor for him being particularly foresighted. His purpose for the Ring is very cleary stated in the Silmarillion:

Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
for his [Saurons] desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.
Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency;

Of course you can as always count in some elven bias or ignorance about their enemy, but since it matches Tolkiens prose description in the aformentioned letter, I'd say it is legit.
Sauron wanted to control the Elves, so he convinced them to make Rings of Power and secrectly forged a Master Ring that dominated them. But in order to do that, he had to insert a large part of his Power into the Ring. The Minds/Rings of the Elves were so powerful, that only a more powerful Mind/Ring could dominate them. The tying of his essence was a neccesity for Plan A to work, and I don't see anything that suggests he was already counting on Plan B at that moment. It was a risk that Sauron willingly took.

I would even go so far as to suspect that Sauron was himself somewhat positively surprised about this convenient side effect of his Ring. As you said it yourself: He's a Maia, an immortal spiritual being. Why should he ever decide to tie himself to the physical world, and thus restrain himself?

Saurons overall purpose or plan in Middle-earth is also stated in this chapter:

Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
Seeing the desolation of the world, Sauron said in his heart that the Valar, having overthrown Morgoth, had again forgotten Middle-earth; and his pride grew apace. He looked with hatred on the Eldar, and he feared the Men of Númenor who came back at whiles in their ships to the shores of Middle-earth; but for long he dissembled his mind and concealed the dark designs that he shaped in his heart.
After the Destruction of Beleriand Sauron stayed behind and resented the Valar for not actively doing more/anything in Middle-earth (contrary to, you know, Morgoth). So he grew prideful and made up his own designs for the world. In other words: He wanted to surpass the Valar and Morgoth by improving Middle-earth himself. Strictly according to his plans, under his strict lordship of course.
And here again we see Tolkiens motive of domination as an act of evil.



Yes, Sauron is just smart  xD
You know how hard it is to argue that? Because I don't really want to deny that in general. Of course Sauron was mighty, cunning, dangerous, cruel, subtle, crafty, and many other things. And after all, Sauron conquered more lands of Middle-earth than Morgoth ever tried.

But the way you portray him, as a forsighted mastermind, that played everyone from the beginning, is just... your headcanon, sorry.
Let's just think of the maaaany moments where Saurons plans didn't go the way he expected.

Like when he sat in Tol-in-Gauroth and thought:
"Well obviously I am the prophesied Wolf that will kill Huan the Hound!", and then got his butt kicked by Lúthien.
Or when he sat in Númenór and thought:
"Well finally I'll never have to worry about the Edain again, Haha!", and later sank while Elendil & Co. escaped.
Or during the War of the Ring when he thought:
"Well naturally they will try to use my Ring against me in war, they're even sending Halfling spies to scout my armies!", and we all know how that ended. ;)

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #119 am: 23. Feb 2016, 02:08 »
Those quotations about the One Ring seem to be really explanatory and clear; what could the poor Val could add to such a direct source?  :P

Still, I have the feeling that we are in front of that kind of situation in which some clear statements regarding a specific subject can be significantly expanded (or changed a bit in their meaning) by not specifically told yet equally important common traits that we can often recollect here and there, having a general view of the portrait.
Given that I myself wrote that the core of Sauron's plan was achieving control of the other Rings, do those lines really exclude the other considerations I previously made?

Specifically, having in mind who is Sauron (history, race, powers, traits,...), and taking into consideration that he is definitely different from Morgoth by his personal usage of malice in much more subtle and deceiving ways, is it really plausible thinking that the Dark Lord was completely unaware of that peculiar aspect while he objectified his Will/essence, thus seeming to ignore the fundamental and deep characteristics involved in the relationship between spirit and physical body for the Ainur?
Personally, as I wrote above, I think that this 'horcrux aspect' served Sauron's plans and purpose so well to let it be defined solely by pure fortuity  :)

Speaking about Sauron's foresight, making a list of his own mistakes doesn't theoretically prove my theory wrong, I guess.
What I wanted to mean was that we can say that Sauron's schemes were eventually the most elaborate ones; meaning essentially that his webs reached almost everyone, one way or the other, with different degrees and with different outcomes (from the Great Cataclysm in the Second Age to the bitter fate of the Elves in seeing their wishes of endurance in Middle Earth by the action of the Three Rings frustrated and finally vanished by the end of the Third Age).
Also because I believe I could make a list of all the mistakes and wrong calculations of the Eldar, for example, beginning with the choice of the Exile, resulting in a new course (along with the known sorrows) for the future of Middle Earth and Arda itself; but I don't really want to disturb Ms. Thatcher again with another list of No:D

I'm not really the greatest supporter of Sauron or Morgoth, as you know, but I have a deep respect for their role.
And, I always feel that remembering their status adds even further glory to their fiercest opponents: our beloved Eldar  8-)



At least, we agree about the secret formula, and it's definitely not a meaningless aspect  xD