Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

[Fine]

On the topic of Sauron being smart, I'd like to take a look as Sauron as a war-leader or general.

I do not think Sauron is very good at leading armies and strategic planning.
Whilst he did successfully conquer and destroy Eregion, he allowed himself to be attacked in the rear by the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm and the Elves of Lórinand. Did it really not come to his mind that the Dwarves, who had a lasting friendship with the Noldor of Eregion, would come to their friend's aid? This surprise attack should not have been surprising at all, and it allowed Elrond's army to escape to Imladris.
Then, he pushed Gil-galad back to Lindon and once again was surprisingly attacked in the rear - twice - by the Númenoreans. Could he not foresee that Gil-galad would call upon the Dúnedain for aid? And while retreating, could he not simply have avoided rivers altogether? I wonder what he was thinking... "Surely, the next river will not be full of warboats and angry Dúnedain. There's no way they would to the same thing twice."
In the War of the Last Alliance, he failed to defeat Anárion in Gondor, even though the armies of Mordor, Harad and Rhûn combined vastly outnumbered the new Southern kingdom. I wonder what Sauron was doing while Gil-galad and Elendil were gathering their armies at Imladris (for three full years iirc) - fighting an unsuccessful trench war against Gondor? He didn't even bother to attack anyone else (as far as we know). Wouldn't, for example, Lothlórien have been a better target?
Speaking of the Golden Wood, in the War of the Ring, Sauron's armies attacked Lothlórien three times. Why? What was the plan here? Seeing the Galadhrim's defences as inpenetrable, Sauron should have used the forces he spent on the second and third attack elsewhere. Maybe he could have defeated Thranduil's Woodland Realm with the additional Orcs or could have launched a surprise attack against Rohan (if his army could avoid the Ents).
On the successful side, we have Sauron's conquest of Minas Tirith in the First Age, but that took a few years even after the crushing defeat the Noldor had suffered in the Dagor Bragollach.
His war against Gondor in the War of the Ring also started out quite successful with the conquest of Minas Ithil and Ithilien, but then he let himself be provoked into striking too soon by Aragorn who basically just said "Come at me bro" through the Palantír. Had Sauron instead used the time to amass all of the armies available in Mordor, Harad, Rhûn and Khand, I do believe that Gondor would have been soundly defeated.

[Walküre]

I really appreciate the fact that you supported your thesis by making a list of a lot of situations which you think don't fit my definition 

But, as I previously wrote, I don't think that this is really the best approach to actually target my point.
No way does the definition I gave – being 'smart' – necessarily imply that Sauron had to win all of his battles and the War itself.
Otherwise, it would be pretty logically impossible making any qualitative statement about Sauron's role in the events he was involved into throughout the centuries, given that he saw his plans undone most of the times.
And, as I also wrote in my previous comment, I think we could do the same exact thing by listing all the critical mistakes the Eldar made since the First Age, or, specifically, the ones the realms of the Free People committed during the War of the Ring and before (and there are many).
Or, what about the White Council, for example, and its appeasing attitude towards the return of Sauron in Mirkwood? Does this perhaps mean that the Wise can't be considered farsighted?

My point is focused primarily on the undeniable fact that, as we know very well, Sauron is the primary actor during the War of the Ring and its previous preparation throughout the whole Third Age.
He caught quite unexpectedly all the Free People engaged in the War, forced everyone on the defensive side until the very last moment, gathered legions of the most diverse troops and coordinated them basically unto the most remote places of Middle Earth.

Therefore, the point is not really if he eventually succeeded in all his propositions, but rather the meaning itself of his whole prominent activity (initially very silent as he lurked in the shadows to prepare his return, then very impetuous as he challenged the Free People in the ultimate war).
And the fact that the War of the Ring was the ultimate war by definition (with really not so many alternatives or plans B for each side in case of a defeat) reflects, I believe, how Sauron had constantly been building up the momentum and scheming almost every aspect of his strategy.
Sauron is undeniably the Keystone of the War of the Ring, and, at a greater extent, of all the course of events since the day Celebrimbor and the other Elven smiths regretted having unintentionally served Sauron's purposes.
Or, even better, we should wonder who really was behind (by his direct or indirect actions) the coming of the Númenóreans in Middle Earth to barrage the dominion of the Evil in the World, and behind the downfall of Númenor, the most powerful kingdom of Arda at that time, and the consequent cataclysm that shocked and changed the World itself forever...

Especially, I'm always impressed how the forging of the Rings of Power (Sauron's plan) shaped all the fortunes and misfortunes of Middle Earth until Sauron's very last moment in the Third Age.
The fact that the Rings of Power eventually remained the unaltered gravitational centre of the Second Age and all the Third Age is probably the most evident proof we have.
Basically, everything seems often to gravitate around Sauron, for the good and the evil.

[Saruman der Bunte]

Ok. I don't think that Sauron intended the Ring as a back-up plan. He was far to arrogant to even think that his body (without Ring) would be destroyed. The risk was also originally smaller as he had much more power on his own back then.

About Sauron being 'smart': I always thought Saurons greatest accomplishment to be his succesful rise back to power in the 3rd age, and how close he got to victory. He sat in Dol-Guldur for a long time, getting stronger and weakening his enemies with the plague and the wain-riders. If Gandalf's plan hadn't suceeded and destroyed Smaug and lots of Orcs (wich was mostly luck), Sauron would have teamed-up with Smaug (and maybe the Orcs of the Misty Mountains), destroyed Rivendell and Thranduil's realm and conquered Rhovanion, Angmar and maybe even all of Eriador before he went to war with Gondor.

Among many cares he was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the east to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect.

Yet after that he succesfully set himself up in Mordor, manipulated Saruman and Denethor and soon took back Dol-Guldur and certainly had the military high ground in the War of the Ring. But still: if there hadn't been as strong a north as at the end of the Hobbit, the free people wouldn't have had much of a chance against Sauron.

@Fine: Well, Sauron was great at controlling the larger strategic movements but not so great at acting the right way in specific crucial situations aswell as sometimes not noticing potential dangers.

[Adamin]

@Saruman der Bunte:
Aaah, I like that quote. ^^
I was kinda miffed when Angmar was added into the Hobbit movie, because I didn't know that it was actually named as part of Saurons plan in the Appendix.

Plus , he would have also attacked Lothlórien with the Dragon, as Gandalf says here:

"I thought then, and I am sure now, that to attack Lórien and Rivendell, as soon as he was strong enough was his original plan. It would have been a much better plan for him, and much worse for us."

@Fine:
I suppose that is the reason why Sauron ground up his forces against Lórien. Taking out Galadriel early might have made the rest of his plans easier.

Totally unrelated to that:

Aragorn who basically just said "Come at me bro"

Returning to an earlier question:

What would have been Sauron's course of action had he regained the ring? (let's say Gollum danced around a little bit more and Frodo tripped into the lava meaning the Nazguls made it back in time to Mount. Doom to cease the ring)

Hard to say, though definetly a good question. I suppose for one he would have returned to his original plan and attacked the Elves. With the One Ring returned Elrond and Galadriel would have had to stop using their Rings, thus Rivendell and Lórien would have lost much of their defenses.
Concerning Men I think it's plausible to expect something along the terms that the Mouth of Sauron brought up:

"The rabble of Gondor and its deluded allies shall withdraw at once beyond the Anduin, first taking oaths never again to assail Sauron the Great in arms, open or secret. All lands east of the Anduin shall be Sauron's for ever, solely. West of the Anduin as far as the Misty Mountains and the Gap of Rohan shall be tributary to Mordor, and men there shall bear no weapons, but shall have leave to govern their own affairs. But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust."
Looking in the Messenger’s eyes they read his thought. He was to be that lieutenant, and gather all that remained of the West under his sway; he would be their tyrant and they his slaves.

So, after a quick retaliation against Gondor for the attack on the Black Gate, Sauron would have occupied everything east of the Anduin and make everything else to the Misty Mountains his tributaries, with the Mouth of Sauron as his Steward in Isengard.

Though I suppose he wouldn't stop there. I could imagine Sauron destroying the Grey Havens just out of spite, though that is just my speculation (and probably inspired by the BfMe2 Campaign).

Just as a general question, do you believe the dwarves of Khazad-Dum when they claim that their ring was not given to them by Sauron, but by Celebrimbor in friendship? I personally doubt it.

As far as I remember, there were different quotes on that, some saying they got the ring from the elves, others that Sauron gave it to them. Though I don't remember exactly which position comes from which book.

The question ist though, does it make a difference? If they got the ring from Celebrimbor, then it was maybe a token of friendship between them. If it was Sauron, then he was probably still capable of using his fair form.

[Walküre]

Speaking of the Golden Wood, in the War of the Ring, Sauron's armies attacked Lothlórien three times. Why? What was the plan here? Seeing the Galadhrim's defences as inpenetrable, Sauron should have used the forces he spent on the second and third attack elsewhere. Maybe he could have defeated Thranduil's Woodland Realm with the additional Orcs or could have launched a surprise attack against Rohan (if his army could avoid the Ents).

This part of Fine's comment – regarding Sauron's strategic capabilities – caught my attention, and it raised a bit a doubt that I often though about, approaching to Lothlórien.

First of all, answering the comment itself, Sauron didn't know at all that in the Golden Wood was hidden one of the Three, nor did he exactly know that Nenya provided to Lothlórien an inviolable coverage given the specific properties of the Ring of Water.
This was a very well-kept secret even among the mightiest Eldar.

Here it is the precise reference in the lore.
They are Galadriel's exact words 

Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.
‘Yes,’ she said, divining his thought, ‘it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lórien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.
‘He suspects, but he does not know – not yet.

J.R.R. Tolkien – The Fellowship of the Ring, The Mirror of Galadriel

Sauron obviously suspects the involvement of a mysterious factor in Lórien's sacred integrity, even though he doesn't know anything.
Therefore, the question is: is it really reasonable that he had not already realised and guessed that Galadriel was the guardian of one of Three Rings, having knowledge about the very existence of those Rings and, especially, knowing that Galadriel was the mightiest Elf in Middle Earth in the Third Age?

Would it be so contradictory or disruptive if Sauron just knew the plain truth about Vilya, Nenya and the connection between these Rings and the places where they are kept?
The Dark Lord could never win those realms anyway, without the One Ring.
I believe it would be much more interesting if the secret of Nenya were something known yet tremendously feared by the Enemy.

[Adamin]

Well yeah, I'd definetly say that the identity of the Three Rings owners was an open secret in Middle-earth, at least for two of them.

So there are these two elven retreats, who seemed to be untouched by the fading and well hidden/protected, with two of the mightiest Elves of old as their leaders... What a coincidence!

I think Sauron must've puzzled that one out. ^^
Maybe noone exactly knew it from Elrond or Galadriel, but if you know what to look for, it's pretty damn obvious.

[Walküre]

Exactly!
But, you know, Sauron is a genuine curious guy 

I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!’

J.R.R. Tolkien – The Fellowship of the Ring, The Mirror of Galadriel

[Linhir]

Hey guys. I had this thought today... what about werewolves in third age? And what it means for Edain? As far as i know, gandalf mentions them once when talking with Frodo. And there was other time when he generalized and used word "beasts".

Also when Theoden was talking about returning to Edoras, he mentions that it was propably taken by werewolves or something like that.

So, according to that, we can speculate that these beasts was still present during third age, and considering where's Edoras... maybe they will be included into MM faction somehow?

Yes Walk, i know that it's not mod dedicated section, but i don't want to make standalone thread just for my considering about this matter, and i think that it can be foundations for just one more discussion about lore.

[Walküre]

Yes Walk, i know that it's not mod dedicated section, but i don't want to make standalone thread just for my considering about this matter, and i think that it can be foundations for just one more discussion about lore.

Why did you address me specifically? 
If you are interested in lore points, this is exactly the suitable place, as you wrote in your own comment; you can forward possible related gameplay considerations of yours in the appropriate threads that belong to the Edain realm 

Well, the real dreadful Werewolves that we have account of are essentially the hideous creatures that Morgoth, and Sauron in particular, created (probably via the corruption of unknown already-existing animals, as the Evil always corrupts and never creates from nothing), gathered and let loose in the darkest regions of Beleriand during the First Age.
Sauron himself was accounted to be their Lord, with even the ability of shape shifting in one of their kind.

Regardless of Sauron's immense power, the most powerful and terrible Werewolf is told to be Carcharoth, personally bred by Morgoth and fierce enemy of our Beren and Lúthien.
It is very likely that immense packs of these creatures were massively used in the War of Wrath against the Host of Valinor, along with every other kind of foul monsters that the Evil managed to summon.
Therefore, this leads us to think that the Werewolves were almost totally exterminated by the end of the First Age, and that their weaker descendants endure as solitary threats in wild lands; unless, obviously, they were bred and used with precise purposes and with evil intentions, as it exactly happened during the War of the Ring or other great conflicts.

[Linhir]

Because i know that you like move posts from one threads to another, when there's any reference to other matter than thread. 

But, returning to the subjects. You only rewritten dry facts that are known, lets use brains for a moment. 
Do you think that was actual any attack of these beasts around Edoras? And when Eomer returned with his man, there was a battle? Or it was just a hunt for few individuals? How many could there be? It's new race bred by Sauron in third age to grow fear in hearts of enemies? Or it's leftovers from the first age? In our pop culture werewolves are immortal, are Tolkien's beasts immortal too?

Just speak your opinion, not only well known facts. 

[Walküre]

Because i know that you like move posts from one threads to another, when there's any reference to other matter than thread. 

You know, it's just one of the duties of Moderators 

You only rewritten dry facts that are known, lets use brains for a moment. 
Do you think that was actual any attack of these beasts around Edoras? And when Eomer returned with his man, there was a battle? Or it was just a hunt for few individuals? How many could there be? It's new race bred by Sauron in third age to grow fear in hearts of enemies? Or it's leftovers from the first age? In our pop culture werewolves are immortal, are Tolkien's beasts immortal too?

Just speak your opinion, not only well known facts. 

Well, if you read again my comment, you might discover that I tried too to wander throughout the very few known facts that we have from the direct source, making hypotheses based on reasonable elements.
That operation of mine is exactly called speculation, something that is very common and thoroughly needed in this lore space, as you can see 

The questions you are trying to answer about the Werewolves in the Third Age can't thus be answered completely.
My previous statement related to the very Third Age/War of the Ring, though, may infer that most of what you want to prove as possible could be indeed legitimate.
So, if Sauron or Saruman or other evil souls ever used them in battle, they must have 'just' bred the offspring of the original creatures; and, no, I don't really think they are immortal, given that the Silmarillion gives us references regarding the Werewolves' vital cycle and that immortality is definitely an iconic prerogative of the Ainur and the Elves.

If you are not acquainted with it yet, reading deeply in one's own words is what we, lore guys, do for a living 

[Linhir]

It is very likely that immense packs of these creatures were massively used in the War of Wrath against the Host of Valinor, along with every other kind of foul monsters that the Evil managed to summon.
Therefore, this leads us to think that the Werewolves were almost totally exterminated by the end of the First Age, and that their weaker descendants endure as solitary threats in wild lands; unless, obviously, they were bred and used with precise purposes and with evil intentions, as it exactly happened during the War of the Ring or other great conflicts.

Yes, you were speculating. But, with much generalising. Let's take step further!

I think that i missed this all vital cycle in Silmarillion. I'll check it out later. But for now, I think that they are immortal. They don't getting older, and can't die of natural causes, but they can be slaughtered! (Just like dragons or balrogs.)
And I think that most of them was killed during battles of War of Wrath, and then during Sinking of Beleriand. But yet, some of them might survive these events, and wandered east, to Dunland or even Mirkwood. There, they lived and reproduced for many, many years, but theirs brood wasn't able to oppose death, so they outlived them (what was keeping their numbers low).
Propably during second age, they took part in war of the last alliance, by Sauron's side, and again, they were decimated.
And when Saruman gained alliegance of Dunlendings and sent them to attack rohan villages, werewolves were amongst them with it's brood.

Part of brood was propably killed during small skimrishes, and rest, along with part of original beasts of Morgoth, when Eomer came back as King.

So... still, few of them might survived (no more than 10, I think).

That's my theory about this race. I think that's consistent with Tolkien's lore, and could be used for Edain purposes.

[Adamin]

That's my theory about this race. I think that's consistent with Tolkien's lore, [...]

Well, no, because nothing in your theory is based on the lore. 
But you wanna use brains, yes? Okay then.

[Gandalf:]"[...] Not all his [Saurons] servants and chattels are wraiths! There are orcs and trolls, there are wargs and werewolves; and there have been and still are many Men, [...]"

This is the only mentioning of Werewolves in the Lord of the Rings. They are never mentioned in combination with Rohan or Edoras ever. And since it is Gandalf mentioning him, we can't really be sure if he's refering to Werewolves being Saurons recent servants, or if he's just refering to Saurons history with Werewolves way back in the First Age.

Their mortality is by the way not mentioned in the Silmarillion; at least I haven't found anything about that. Generally I'm not really sure how to answer this though, because:

Therefore an army was sent against him under the command of Sauron; and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies.

Werewolves in Tolkiens world are not defined by being shapeshifters (that only Sauron did), but by being possessed wolves. They are animals with an evil spirit forced into them, thus giving them more malice and probably more strength.
So I think it's hard to speculate on their lifespan. What kind of spirit was used by Sauron (a lesser Maiar, or just an Orc spirit)? How exactly did the spirit affect the wolves body?

My best guess would be that while the spirit is probably immortal, the wolves body is most likely not. ^^
So I think a Werewolf in Arda would eventually die.


But, there is still some hope for your Third Age Werewolves. They might actually be Wargs.

The word Warg used in The Hobbit and the L.R. for an evil breed of (demonic) wolves [...] the noun common to the Northmen of these creatures.

What exactly is a demonic wolf? It might simply be a wolf that is possessed by a demon, or evil spirit.
So it might actually be that there is not that much of a difference between Wargs and Werewolves. As the above quote states, Warg is just the name that the Northmen of Rhovannion gave these creatures.

And I think it is kind of elegant to think of it that way. It would mean that there still is a similiar creature to werewolves in the later Middle-earth, but their name evolved due to the modern inhabitants

[Walküre]

I agree with Adamin about the Werewolves' nature and regarding the Wargs as possible weaker remnants of a once terrible kind.
Furthermore, I would like to add another reference of the Silmarillion that refers specifically to Carcharoth 

There dismay took them, for at the gate was a guard of whom no tidings had yet gone forth. Rumour of he knew not what designs abroad among the princes of the Elves had come to Morgoth, and ever down the aisles of the forest was heard the baying of Huan, the great hound of war, whom long ago the Valar unleashed. Then Morgoth recalled the doom of Huan, and he chose one from among the whelps of the race of Draugluin; and he fed him with his own hand upon living flesh, and put his power upon him. Swiftly the wolf grew, until he could creep into no den, but lay huge and hungry before the feet of Morgoth. There the fire and anguish of hell entered into him, and he became filled with a devouring spirit, tormented, terrible, and strong. Carcharoth, the Red Maw, he is named in the tales of those days, and Anfauglir, the Jaws of Thirst. And Morgoth set him to lie unsleeping before the doors of Angband, lest Huan come.

J.R.R. Tolkien – The Silmarillion, Of Beren and Lúthien

So, we can clearly assume that those 'evil spirits' that are mentioned in the other quotations can also be legitimately seen as the direct evil influence of Sauron or Morgoth that endow wolves (or other foul creatures) with power, turning them into the real Werewolves we read about.
Morgoth follows that exact operation, breeding and shaping what would have been the most dreadful among them.
The main recurrent theme, thus, is the needed presence of a mighty evil being that plays the part of the primary agent in the creation of the said creatures.

I again reaffirm my disapproval about their immortality.
This characteristic is iconically something that belongs to the Ainur and the Eldar.
Corrupted creatures – now we have the clear reference to their corruption – are highly unlikely to be defined by an immortal body and spirit.

[Linhir]

Well it seems that only in polish translation of trilogy, werewolves were mentioned in context of propably raiding Edoras. 

And I never called them shapeshifters. I know that it's only "Big Bad Wolves". 
But, i don't think that they are related to wargs, it's just different races.