Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

[VectorMaximus]

I'm interested to hear thoughts on this; when do you think the Numenoreans became unsaveable? I personally feel like if Tar-Miriel was allowed to be Ruling Queen the Faithful party could have become more secure and better entrenched, after 2 successive reigns that would have allied with them.

Yet even Ar-Pharazon was a close friend of Elendil's when they were young. Prideful, distrustful of the Valar and the Elves, yes, but not evil. Its only when Sauron is brought to Numenor does it seem unsalvageable, like the Downfall is doomed to happen. And personally, his actions in the Downfall of Numenor was his greatest act of Evil, even over the forging of the One.

[Walküre]

I agree with you.
The role Sauron had in the Downfall of the most powerful kingdom of Arda at that time (the Undying Lands excluded) was probably his most evil act yet planned with an extreme and malicious intelligence.

Once Númenórë sank into the Sea, the World was upset, broken and reshaped into a sphere.
Moreover, the Immortal Lands were separated from the outer World, and so would have they remained until the End of Time.

If I really have to choose a precise moment, I would say that the definitive turning point was the war waged against Valinor itself, begun with the preparation of the legendary mighty fleet of the proud Human King.
The idea itself of waging war against the Blessed Realm is probably the worst crime ever conceived; a clear action against the order of the Universe.

As I already wrote in this section, I think that the storm and all the eagle-like threatening black clouds, that Manwë sent as a warning in the preceding days of the final military campaign, exactly represent all the Valar's King's wrath.
But, given his purely good heart, I'm sure that Manwë felt also really betrayed, disappointed and sincerely regretful, foreseeing what would have happened to the Númenóreans.

Then the Eagles of the Lords of the West came up out of the dayfall, and they were arrayed as for battle, advancing in a line the end of which diminished beyond sight; and as they came their wings spread ever wider, grasping the sky. But the West burned red behind them, and they glowed beneath, as though they were lit with a flame of great anger, so that all Númenor was illumined as with a smouldering fire; and men looked upon the faces of their fellows, and it seemed to them that they were red with wrath.

J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion, Akallabêth



But still, in their wrath, the Valar didn't really want to confront directly and personally destroy the human beings (direct creations of Eru) that dared to attack them; nor would they ever wanted to bring ruin in the heart of Valinor even with victory at hand, considering the power unleashed by Ar-Pharazôn.
When they called for the intervention of Ilúvatar, they also laid down their authority in Arda and waited for the final judgement.

Then Manwë upon the Mountain called upon Ilúvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda.

J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion, Akallabêth

Do you see some traces of Mercy and deep Love in the Valar's act, given also that they later prayed for the sake of the Faithful? 

[VectorMaximus]

I do see mercy. I believe that Illuvater or the Valar (not sure which) sent the Faithful Exiles to Lindon, where they would be received honorably and kindly. They could have landed in Umbar, which was dominated by the King's Men, and been destroyed.

[Walküre]

I always see Mercy whenever I think that the Valar could have personally vanquished and killed the Númenóreans, even in the most cruel ways, having all the authority and reasons to do that.

It seems that respecting and caring for the Children of Ilúvatar's free arbitrary thinking and life has always been a boundary that the Lords of the West imposed on themselves (except very exceptional cases, at least, but not this precise exceptional threat).

That's why they avoid a direct involvement and remit their legitimacy to govern Arda in Ilúvatar's hands.

[The_Necromancer0]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGdp5_12zW0
About this scene. If the WK hadn't been distracted by the Rohirrim would he have actually killed Gandalf? It seems possible since we see (read) about Wormtongue killing Saruman but Saruman was taken by surprise. Would Gandalf have revealed the full extent of his power or would he have been killed? Would that have changed much to the story? Apart from the whole lost moral for the troops?

[Walküre]

Firstly, we have to consider that we are talking about the trilogy's lore, and I never particularly liked that scene.
It's not lore accurate, in my opinion.

Beside that, Gandalf did have a brief encounter with the Witch King during the siege of Minas Tirith.
The two, though, don't have the time to directly challenge each other as Rohan horns are suddenly and widely heard throughout the battlefield.

In rode the Lord of the Nazguˆl. A great black shape against
the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of
despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazguˆl, under the archway
that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his
face.
All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space
before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax
who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the
terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dı´nen.
‘You cannot enter here,’ said Gandalf, and the huge
shadow halted. ‘Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go
back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your
Master. Go!’
The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had
a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The
red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and
dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.
‘Old fool!’ he said. ‘Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not
know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!’
And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down
the blade.
Gandalf did not move. And in that very moment, away
behind in some courtyard of the City, a cock crowed. Shrill
and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war,
welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the
shadows of death was coming with the dawn.
And as if in answer there came from far away another note.
Horns, horns, horns. In dark Mindolluin’s sides they dimly
echoed. Great horns of the North wildly blowing. Rohan had
come at last.

J.R.R. Tolkien - The Return of the King, The Siege of Gondor

It's an interesting speculation that can be made.
Nevertheless, I believe the Lord of the Ringwraiths could have never subdued the will and powers of the chief of the Istari, more Maia-like than ever after his 'rebirth' in the World 

Saruman had lost most of his powers when he got killed, both in the books and in ROTK.
He was basically harmless, if not for his insidious speech.

[Adamin]

Val is probably preparing another praising of the Vala.
edit: Okay I was wrong. Sorry about that, Val...

Well, Gandalf was nerfed a lot in the movies. In the books he seemed much more self-assured and powerful. There he approached the Witchking eye to eye, and they both threatend each other into a Wild West Style stand-off.

So they both appeared very competent in that situation. Gandalf is a mighty wizard and Maiar of course, but the Witchking is described as drawing power out of the terror and fear around him. And during the siege of Minas Tirith the whole city was full of terror.
I think it's hard to say who would have won.

In the movie Version though I think it's plausible that the Witchking might have killed Gandalf. And since the Attack on the Black Gate was Aragorns idea there (was it in the books?), it probably wouldn't have changed that much. Frodo and Sam would have died on the slopes of Mount Doom though...

[Walküre]

Val is probably preparing another praising of the Vala.

Actually, I hesitated a bit on that Maia-like because I wanted to give more details and arguments to back that sentence; but, I eventually desisted.
Lucky you, then 

I won't be so merciful in the future 

[Adamin]

I probably should have provided quotes to back my claim of the Witchkings power (at least I'm pretty sure that I had read about it), but unfortunately I don't have my sources with me right now... ^^

[Melkor Bauglir]

First of all, it's of course correct that this scene is only present in the movies, so we don't really know what would have happenend. What we however practically know for sure, is that an Istari can't just leave his mortal form and become a full Ainur once more, just 'cause he pleases to do so. There are too many cases where this might have been extremely convenient -apart from that, even a weak Ainur can be killed by physical beings, see Balrogs -those are definitely not concealed like an Istari (quite the contrary to be precise). At least Saruman would probably directly abandon his mortal form the moment he decided to swap to the Dark Side (of the Force -sorry, I couldn't resist ), the fact he didn't, tells us, this is not just a voluntary restriction of their powers, but a permanent change, at least before a possible return to Aman.

Also, DieWalküre, please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you overestimate certain characters. I'd like to remind everyone that an Istari is very much vulnerable -Saruman obviously was stabbed (movie) / cut through the throat (books), however even Gandalf was at least hurt once: After the BotFA, Bilbo encounters a Gandalf whose one arm is bandaged. And since they were only orcs present (and most likely not the big uruks of Mordor, but more of the small snaga orcs), an Istari can be harmed very much. (Apart from that, Gandalf was described to not participating directly in the fighting for the most time.)

I probably should have provided quotes to back my claim of the Witchkings power (at least I'm pretty sure that I had read about it), but unfortunately I don't have my sources with me right now... ^^

You are mistaken, my dear Adamin, since I'm still here. Apart from the obvious displays of magical powers (breaking Frodo's sword at the Fords of Bruinen, enhancing Grond / weakening the gate), his terrific presence when acting as the revealed Dark Marshall (or whatever his title is in english) which makes it practically impossible for weak (and even many mediocre strong) minded to face him, Denethor remarks that the Witchking is finally someone equal to the White Rider. Gandalf does not deny this statement, also after Gandalf scared away the Nazgûl attacking Faramir it is written, that the Dark Marshall hadn't arrived yet to oppose this new foe. So while I agree BTW that the battle is won a little to easily by the Witchking in the movie (still better, then undead-drowned Galadriel in an over the top videogame-mind-battle against Sauron...), the two are certainly equal.
To sum up my thoughts about the scene and its possible outcome: I think there is no real denying that an Istari can be destroyed. I'm not sure, if this destroys his spirit or just the old man, meaning he could potentially still continue his existence in the undying lands (or given yet another chance, since after a potential fall of Gandalf the White, the good people of Middle Earth would be without a leader, which might be a reason for him returning in the first place, since the order of the Istari was basically done for after Gandalf died versus the Balrog and Saruman... well, I'm stating the obvious for him^^).


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Edit: Concerning this paragraph

So they both appeared very competent in that situation. Gandalf is a mighty wizard and Maiar of course, but the Witchking is described as drawing power out of the terror and fear around him. And during the siege of Minas Tirith the whole city was full of terror.

I have to object to some points: First and most importantly, Gandalf is of course technically a Maiar, but (even as Gandalf the White) still restricted. Yes, some of his powers are revealed once in a while, but it's still nothing like a full Maia with the ability to shapeshift. Therefore I would everytimes speak only of Istari if it comes to these wizards and basically use this "power-category" as a third, next to Valar and Maiar, which is further authorized by the huge emphasis in the LotR.
Secondly, I'd like to see a quote for this "feeding on fear"-process, since I believe it to be basically the other way around: Not the Witchking is getting stronger, the more fear there is, but the more direct Mordor's first in command is using his powers (not so much his magic, but his general presence) the more fear he calls forth. It is of course very important, how when he is acting: During the gate-scene when the two met, he is basically at the top of his power, all of Mordor's troops standing under his command with the clouds taking away any light -I think, the Nazgûl's fear-presence is basically amplified to closer they are to the grip of Mordor, which sounds awefully poetic, but a) this is the way the books are written, so deal with it, and b) if you consider, that Mordor (in the form of its full military power) is basically holding a terrified Minas Tirith in its grip, it gets a lot less poetic.

[Walküre]

Melkor, I absolutely agree with you that the restrictions placed upon the Istari are a real physical modification (diminished powers, authority and sealed memory), ordered by the Valar and enforced regardless of the Wizards' will.
And, I know pretty well the difference between being an Istar and being an Ainu, as this is probably what you were referring to.

Therefore, I don't really think my statement was overestimating anyone.
I know for sure that the Istari are vulnerable too, and I accept the reference to Gandalf in the Battle of the Five Armies.
But, that is Gandalf the Grey; I was talking about Gandalf the White 

I exactly drew a distinction by stressing the fact that Gandalf the White 'came in the World' again much more Maia-like than ever, albeit still not reaching, obviously, the level of a full-empowered Ainu.
I wrote that the Witch King could have thus never subdued Gandalf the way he did in the film, and not that Gandalf would have necessarily won.

[Melkor Bauglir]

Hmpf, I have to admit, that my grammar in Tolkien's world isn't always perfect. Eventhough I felt strange about "Istari" and "Ainur", because I later this evening used the term in singular and realised it was the same, which I found weird. (For proof, that I'm not making this up to safe myself: http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,28706.msg430790.html#msg430790 ).
And I realised of course you were referring to Gandalf the White. It is in my opinion a totally valid point of yours that this Gandalf is more "angelic" (even in a physical way, since he seems to be less of a physical burden for Gwaihir). However, I still stand by my point that even such a distant being can be killed or at least released from his existence in Middle Earth. The classical Gandalf the White scenes are (if I'm not mistaken) mostly scenes, when he uses the inherent light of his character, therefore he is literally the opposite of the Witchking, since a revealed Gandalf is a beacon of hope for the free people of Middle Earth and kind of their defender when all else fails (curing of Theoden, his defense of Minas Tirith), while the revealed Witchking is a being of despair and shadow.
Actually this is much clearer in the books, since most people call the Lord of the Nazgûl the Witchking, a title which is practically never used in the books, where he is mostly just "The Black Rider" (if this is not the case for other versions, I'd be glad to hear that ). There is a certain symmetry between the White and the Black Rider, therefore it would be just and fair if both of them are in the same category of power -something they apparently are!

Now, I'm afraid, I'm not really pointing out things we disagree about. IMO, the main reason, why the Witchking should have never killed Gandalf in the books is exactly this symmetry, since they are sort of the opposite side of a single coin, so to speak, eventhough probably only in the ways mentioned above.
However this symmetry is basically not there in the movies (which I don't really mind, since it's more of a purist thing, I'm glad to abandon for a cinematic masterpiece where things like that would be overkill and disturb the action), so considering the movie scene: Gandalf should have been dead.
However, because of this symmetry argument, I'd agree with you, that the Witchking couldn't kill Gandalf. I'd add in fact that this counts vice versa, too, mainly for storytelling arguments!


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[Adamin]

Ooooh, someone was just waiting to jump onto this Topic!

Yes I know, Olorin the Maia is not the same as Gandalf the Wizard in terms of power. It's just a nice little shorthand to describe that Gandalf the White was kinda a big deal.

I'm not sure, if this destroys his spirit or just the old man

I'm pretty sure it would just destroy his physical body. As you yourself refered to Sarumans death, there it is described that his body fell apart, but there was something rising up from it and getting blown away (rejected) from the West.

As I said, I don't have my LotR sources with me atm, so I can't look it up. But I will try to find it as soon as I can. I think it was a small Paragraph about the Black Captain prior to his arrival at Minas Tirith in Return of the King. If someone else finds it, go ahead and post it. ^^

[Walküre]

That's what I wanted to say, Melkor; Gandalf could have indeed stood firm and tried to fend off the Witch King with honour, regardless of the final outcome of the fight.
I hope we can agree on this 

And, regarding the Istari and their physical body, I think I can make a valuable and reasonable speculation 

Firstly, it's a bit of a tricky matter because the Istari are not exactly like the Ainur for their known restrictions.
But, I think we should start with considering the Ainur's basic characteristics: taking for granted that – as long as an Ainu decides to take a physical form – their body and spirit are deeply connected, if then the physical dimension is destroyed for any reason, the spirit will result in being damaged too, ending up with losing some powers or properties.
There is a pretty clear explanation in the Silmarillion about the Ainur and the physical form they decided to turn into; there is also a significant reference to this when Lúthien convinces Sauron to lay down his magical control of Tol-in-Gaurhoth, reminding him that Huan could have deprived him from his body (with extremely negative consequences) and that he would have had to respond of his failure to his Dark Lord.

I don't have these quotations at hand, now, for time reasons.
But, I hope you will trust me 

Returning now to the Istari, they can obviously die and lose their old body (which is not 'old' in potency and energy, though).
I would thus suggest that their spirit, instead of having the possibility to linger and take back part of its past capabilities as the Ainur can, doesn't have the chance, anymore, to regain power or to take again a physical form (unless they are admitted to Valinor).
Saruman's spirit will thus wander forever in the World, banned from Aman, harmless and hopeless.

[Hamanathnath]

I got a question about the One Ring.  I'm sorry if this has been asked already.  I did quickly look over this thread to see if this was asked, but I might have missed something.

Now from the Movies, and I assume the books too, though I have never read them, that the Putting on the One Ring makes you invisible, or at least invisible to the Normal World, I think it puts you in this sort of "Wraith Dimension", though correct me if I'm wrong. 

So my question is not why does it make you invisible, but actually, Did Sauron want the One Ring to do that?  If so, why?  What purpose does that serve?

Thanks in advance.