The Hobbit Trilogy

[Gandalf The Gray]

You got a point in that.
But all the people you mention are some kind of supernatural characters. That´s ok for me.

But if someone "normal" (dwarves don´t have magic powers...) constructs a machine, this machine should be "realistic" and according to physics.

How are those ballistas not working properly or against the law of Physics?
As LordDainIronfoot has previously written, they must have a sort of anti-arrows net attached to each projectile.
I instead find it a smart and useful way to counter the Wood Elves of Mirkwood, considering how they generally fight, relying on bows and arrows.

It was a very intelligent and strategic idea of Dáin, I honestly have to reckon 

because the rotating blades or net would
- cause a huge air resistance
- cause a momentum against direction of move
which simply would lead to slowing down the projectile and make it drop after some metres.

The main thing about all that (for me) is the differences to the Lord of the Rings trilogy. In that movies nearly everything (besides supernatural creatures like Sauron, Gandalf etc.) was "realistic":
- a Mumakil cannot fly without wings
- a troll cannot jump 100 metres high
- someone who falls down a high wall dies

While in the Hobbit movies there are far too much "unrealistic" things (ballista projectiles, suicide trolls, wyrms, ...) that do not fit to the Middle Earth presented by the LotR trilogy.

My problem is not the action in the Hobbit. My problem is the action in the Hobbit compared to the one in the LotR. It just does not fit together, and it´s still the same world.

you think too much man 

[LordDainIronfoot]

So korner what is exactly stupid!?The fact that PJ decided to.give the Dwarves some credit and pay a little bit more attention to them by showing that Dwarves are not just brutre strength and love only to drink and fight but also are great blacksmiths and engineers who came.up with such clever invention to counter the main advantage of the Elves!!And I do not see any problem with the physics even in real world there are somilar inventions and I do not see it so problematic or out of place!The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it bad or wrong in any way!
P.S. And it is not  matter of who had been longer on this forum! :-)

[Gnomi]

There is a lot of physics in Lotr.
Tolkien always tried to make middleearth realistic. It's the same as in old sages:
You have all of the things you knew from our world... and then you just add something like magic and dragons.
That's everything. You just add some more things, which (if you look at it from the point of view of our ancestors) could be realistic. Therefore physics is really important. Of course those ballistas aren't as unrealistic as many other things... but I personally think that the movie could be good without them and I don't like them at all.
Tolkien tried to make everything logical and realistic.^^ That's something which is really important and is a difference between middleearth and many other fantasy books. And imo this should have been integrated in the movies, as it is one of the most important things in the books which I really like. That's one of the reasons why I don't like most of Legolas' scenes.
In the books no rules of the real world were replaced - just new things added.^^

Additionally for me there was already too much fighting action and too little development in the hobbit movies. Sadly it seems as if the SEE won't change that but will become even more action packed with bombastic scenes, but there is no story and development shown as in the lotr movies.

I could write a bit more about the parallels between middleearth and the edda which tolkien used a lot to make my point clear, but I have no time for that atm.
Just a small summary:
Such things are always not made by "normal" people, neither in the lotr, nor in the edda. Those weapons are made either by gods, mythical creatures which have either magical ancestors or  they were made by the other 'god-races'. But Tolkien described the dwarves very similar to the humen, just with some changes, like better drafting and other desires. Similarly as the hobbits are also like humen, but with some small changes.
So I don't think that it fits for them to construct such weapons.

To create such a weapon (which destroys/catches the arrows in the air) you need a very light material which is strong enough to catch those arrows. Additionally the ballistas have to shot it strong enough that the air resistance won't stop them. The only possible thing would be mithril and dwarves would never use that for such a thing.
The only other possibility are such fast rotating blades. I'm a bit unsure here, but I think that it is impossible to create such an arrow which rotates fast enough to hit ALL arrows and also flies over a long distance in a direct curve. Especially after hitting the arrows it should never fly further as if there was nothing.

Those weapons were always created by gods or similar creatures. (as written above)
So it would be 'more' okay for me if Saruman would have invented them, but not the dwarves. Again: I have written above why.

So I have to say:
I can understand that people like the scenes, but for me I feel more frustration than happiness when I see them. There are some really nice scenes and things I really love in the movies, but when there is about 10% of scenes I like and 90% of scenes I don't like, while the lotr movies had 90% of scenes I like and 10% I don't like, it's difficult for me to enjoy the hobbit as a good middleearth movie. For me (especially the second and third one) is no serious movie as the lotr movies were, but middleearth-cabarett. And even though cabarett is really nice, I don't like it when they wanted to make serious movies.

That has nothing to do with "thinking to much", just with a different approach to the movies. Everyone has a different taste and looks at different points. I personally like many of the non-fighting-scenes, but most of the fighting-scenes are really... irritating, unrealistic and boring for me. Other people love those scenes.^^

you think too much man 

[Gandalf The Gray]

well dain dwarfs are the best blacksmiths in the books and the movies i think bilbo maid it pretty clear in the auj intro

[LordDainIronfoot]

So we are talking about 100% correct physics on a world wilhere we have Trolls,Magical Rings and even and Army of Undead Spirits who walk and kill like it is nothing!Are talking about the same.World!? :-)

[CragLord]

Chill man. This board is for open discussion, which means you have to accept other users have different opinion to yours.
You always blame me for being rude, but if you analyze the matter correctly, it´s not me but you being rude.
I don´t call others who are severeal years older than me "boys", and besides that I´m active in this forum a while longer then you.

Ok, about Legolas all is pure fun matter.  That stone crushing scene for example, isn't possible in real world ofc. But I think PJ always goes over some real boundary when we speak about Legolas. (He was described in book like leaf, so maybe PJ again wanted to use that description and implement it in movie...)
Completely cool I am.
Rude? Because I called you boy? I didn't wrote that in term of years obviously, nevermind. Sorry if that hurt you in any possible way!
About you spent time on this forum, I respect that, but I will defend my opinion also.

Well, about balistas idea is possible is some cases. All you wrote is true, that arrow couldn't fly straight through air like in trailer, but idea is possible. Main condition would be that ballista arrow is much more heavier than chain on its back (it is obviously some kind of chain, not blade). And that it is fired with enough energy ofc.
 

[korner]

So korner what is exactly stupid!?The fact that PJ decided to.give the Dwarves some credit and pay a little bit more attention to them by showing that Dwarves are not just brutre strength and love only to drink and fight but also are great blacksmiths and engineers who came.up with such clever invention to counter the main advantage of the Elves!!And I do not see any problem with the physics even in real world there are somilar inventions and I do not see it so problematic or out of place!The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it bad or wrong in any way!
P.S. And it is not  matter of who had been longer on this forum! :-)

As Gnomi writes, I´d prefer it being accurate to the LotR movies more "realistic".

I don´t have any problem with the dwarves being clever, even with them being more clever then elves.
You may like every bit of the movie, that´s your right and I don´t blame anyone for liking the movies.
But if it´s allowed to say "I like the ballista" then it´s also allowed that I say I don´t like it.
That´s all. Where is the problem?

[/quote][/spoiler]
you think too much man 
[/quote]

maybe 

I´d like to like the movie, but I simply can´t. Everybods has different preferences.

[Gnomi]

Are you sure that they are the best blacksmiths?
What about the elves of the first age? Or the dwarves of the first age?
Would the dwarves be able to make the silmarils?

And even the best blacksmiths can't do anything, even they have their limits. The dwarven of the third age are really good, I won't say anything against it. But they can't use magic or something similar, which is always included in such weapons (at least when you look at all the other special weapons whicha re used in middleearth or in the edda.)


@ LordDainIronfoot:
I have explained it multiple times. I won't  repeat it again. I ahve also explaiend how giants and so on were formed in the edda and tolkien used them in exactly the same way.
it wasn't tolkien's goal to make middleearth a completely different world (like world of warcraft does), but he wanted it to be very similar to the real world. Therefore I think that you CAN use our physics. Perhaps somewhere in the universe (so with our physics) there are some kind of trolls. We had dinosaurs in our world, even trolls could exist. And trolls are more or less just big, strong men.
And if you read my comment again you'll notice that I also wrote something about the magical rings there. So: I won't repeat it.^^

@ CragLord:
I still don't think that it's possible without magic. And dwarves weren't able to use magic, which is why the blades of the elves were always different and in some way better than dwarvish blades: They were able to use it.
So I would like some more indigenously technology of the dwarves and think that those would fit much better. (of course they could still be stronger and better than the normal technology. But the style of the technology just doesn't fit for the dwarves imo.

[CragLord]

@ CragLord:
I still don't think that it's possible without magic

If we try to watch this from our realistic prospective, yes. They needed magic to contain kinetic energy of that arrow, so it could fly pretty straight. 
Any way, I think in terms of which I wrote earlier, this situation is possible in some cases and on some level of its realization. 
Agree about  technology mater in general. We could say that normal anti monster balista is more suitable for Iron Hills dwarves.

[Gandalf The Gray]

Are you sure that they are the best blacksmiths?
What about the elves of the first age? Or the dwarves of the first age?
Would the dwarves be able to make the silmarils?

no but the elves of the first age dose not exist anymore some of them are alive but they are not blacksmiths of meddle earth so yes third age dwarfs are the best

[Walküre]

because the rotating blades or net would
- cause a huge air resistance
- cause a momentum against direction of move
which simply would lead to slowing down the projectile and make it drop after some metres.

The main thing about all that (for me) is the differences to the Lord of the Rings trilogy. In that movies nearly everything (besides supernatural creatures like Sauron, Gandalf etc.) was "realistic":
- a Mumakil cannot fly without wings
- a troll cannot jump 100 metres high
- someone who falls down a high wall dies

While in the Hobbit movies there are far too much "unrealistic" things (ballista projectiles, suicide trolls, wyrms, nearly every second Legolas move ...) that do not fit to the Middle Earth presented by the LotR trilogy.

My problem is not the action in the Hobbit. My problem is the action in the Hobbit compared to the one in the LotR. It just does not fit together, and it´s still the same world.

They are all interesting facts, but this is not a scientific essay.

How do you know, precisely, what kind of Art or unknown Techniques the Dwarves used in the creation of these machines?
The Dwarves are not Elves nor Ainur, but they aren't also Humans.
Most of their Arts are unknown and willingly kept hidden by them.

I really think that a scientific approach like yours, to this kind of topics, is certainly the worst and most counterproductive that one could ever have.
It just basically ruins the whole atmosphere and spirit of this FICTIONAL World.

There is a lot of physics in Lotr.
Tolkien always tried to make middleearth realistic. It's the same as in old sages:
You have all of the things you knew from our world... and then you just add something like magic and dragons.

Those weapons were always created by gods or similar creatures. (as written above)
So it would be 'more' okay for me if Saruman would have invented them, but not the dwarves. Again: I have written above why.

That has nothing to do with "thinking to much", just with a different approach to the movies. Everyone has a different taste and looks at different points. I personally like many of the non-fighting-scenes, but most of the fighting-scenes are really... irritating, unrealistic and boring for me. Other people love those scenes.^^

Gnomi, I saw just now your reply.
I don't want to write unnecessary walls of text, but I will just say that I respect your opinions, but there is definitely something more than adding some Dragons here and there in a semi-fictional World 

Magic influences everything, one way or the other, in the Tolkien's World; and it has always been a part of the foundations of Arda since the Beginning.
Also, Tolkien often reminds us that, instead of pure 'Magic' (out of nowhere), the imaginary and 'magical' things that we read about in Middle Earth (about Ainur, Elves or Dwarves and specific Humans) should be better considered as specific and proper 'Arts' of each race of Arda (Ainur included), with which the different races influence the surrounding environment.
This is a pivotal topic, as Galadriel (Tolkien) tells us in FOTR, speaking about the 'Art' of the Elves, and considering the 'human' term 'Magic' as a negative and wrong word.

Concerning the creation and mechanism of those ballistas, I think I already replied above to korner, expressing what I truly think 
Also, don't forget that the Dwarves have been present in Middle Earth since the Years of the Trees, and that they thus overall possess a superior, ancient and hidden Knowledge about the general crafting of things; a Knowledge that the Humans can easily regard as 'magical', as they do with most of the Elven Arts.
We are still talking about the Third Age, a dark and disenchanted Age, in which, though, Magic is still generally present in the World (obviously in a minor scale); the Fourth Age is the real 'dividing' Age, which definitely marks the ineluctable 'Transformation' of the World.
It's obvious that the general physical laws exist and have their importance in Arda, but I would say that they are 'integrated' in this fictional World in a naturally different way.
Talking thus about atoms, prehistoric creatures or strict mechanic laws is really counterproductive, and it might divert you from the real Essence of this extraordinary Legendarium 

This is the crucial fact: no race really thinks to have pure Magic in its hands.
Every race considers and sees its Arts as a natural display and modification of the World according to its own proper and natural qualities.
As the Valar always remembered the Men of Númenor that the Immortal Lands are not immortal by themselves, but they were made so by the Immortal Beings who dwell there 

Are you sure that they are the best blacksmiths?
What about the elves of the first age?

I totally agree with you.
One of their most beautiful 'Jewels' (speaking about the Noldor of Aman in general) is the main theme of my signature 

[LordDainIronfoot]

I think too much real.world science is not needed I meam too much!We can talk about.possible cutings in tbs Ballista Arrows and air currents and aerodynamic but it is not so Middle Earth Style! :-)
It is true that the Dwarves do not have magic of the magnitude of Galadriel and the Elves ,but as Walkure said there are many things  about the Dwarven technology and  magic ,we do not know even their real names !Bu lt I think that Dwarves posses small magics which can enchant objects those are not so strong and mighty magic but rather Dwarvish style help a little their great inventions ,Magics like uased to enchant other objects like Moria Gate so I think it is quite possible to use similar small enchant on other of their made objects! :-)

[Gnomi]

@ CragLord:
I agree with you. It always depends on the point of view. I don't want to say that mine is the only right one, as I'm not Tolkien, so I can't be 100% sure what's correct. I'm just trying to not only understand the books, but also tolkien's art of making the story.^^

no but the elves of the first age dose not exist anymore some of them are alive but they are not blacksmiths of meddle earth so yes third age dwarfs are the best

One small thing:
Elrond: alive in first age
Galadriel: alive in first age
Celeborn: alive in first age
Glorfindel: alive in first age

Now tell me again how all elves of the first age  doesn't exist anymore.
The thing I wanted to say is that there has been better smiths than the ones at the end of the third age. The dwarves were some of the best at that point, but if you look at the whole story, there were better smiths. And you have to look at everything if you talk about this, because if the dwarves of the iron hills were able to construct such a thing, than all the other ones would also had the possibilities to create such things. And as I said: Magic. Those things would probably only work with magic and we all know that the dwarves weren't able to make weapons with magic. (they were sometimes really frustrated, because they were better smiths than the elves, but weren't able to make magical weapons like the elves)
Therefore there are always differences.^^

@ DieWalküre:
If you compare middleearth with the edda you'll see many similarities. Of course there is more than just adding dragons, I agree with you, but it's also much less than deleting phyisical  and well known rules.^^
As I have written above there is still a difference between things which look magical and things which are really magical. The dwarves were really good - but they used solid and not magical arts. Everyone with enough talent could have learned it - but the dwarves just had more talent than humen and most elves. Therefore it seemed magical.
But the elves were able to use some kind of magic (glowing blades when orcs are near) and those things weren't learnable. The dwarves weren't able to such things, simple because they weren't elves. But very talented elves are able to learn all of the dwarven techniques. (but there were way more talented dwarves than elves^^)

@ LordDainIronfoot:
The door of Moria was built by elves and dwarves together.^^

[LordDainIronfoot]

I know that it is made by Dwarves and Elves but it is nowhere said that Dwarves didnt use a little magic there! :-)
It is a bit of speculation but as I love to.say we never  what Tolkien could have done or.change! And little speculation is not.bad.when within limitations not some wild.dream so my point is that many things we do know for sure doesn't mean that they are not possible and a little speculation is not so out of place! :-)

[Der Dunkle König]

I have a question: Can somebody explain to me how these ballistas work?
The bolts which are fired by them rotate, so they must either have started rotating after they were fired, which is impossible, because after firing there is no longer a connection between bolt and ground. Or they started rotating while they were on the ballistas, before they were fired, which is impossible too, because when I look at these machines there is no place for these rotating anti-arrow-shields to be active while they lie there.

Edit: I have lookes at the picture posted by Dain again, and you can see that some of the bolts are already fired there, and they don't have the anti-arrow-things. So the movie-makers have chosen alternative one and the anti-arrow-bolts are able to unfold themselves magically.
And I definitly agree with Gnomi about that, I don't believe that dwarves are capable of such a kind of magic.