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Autor Thema: The Hobbit Trilogy  (Gelesen 123231 mal)

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
« Antwort #135 am: 27. Aug 2015, 02:29 »
So let's look it more engineering way !The Ballistas Arrows may have some sort of cutings and shape changes that combined with the speed and air current make the rotate and those chains or something are unleashed by the current and begin rotate WITH the Arrow itself! :-) I do not know all the proper English words to explain it more clearly but I hope you understood what I mean! :-)
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

CragLord

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Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
« Antwort #136 am: 27. Aug 2015, 02:33 »
Arrow shape is responsible for different mass distibution and start of rotation movement. Arrows are fired in translation way at first place ofc.
Same like windlance arrows, they are fired by transation but they rotate stronly after some time, that is because their shape ofc. :)

From physic way, problem is not arrow rotation, but those chains on arrow back. :P Those rotating chain would slow and crush ballista's arrow too soon. :)
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Aug 2015, 02:51 von CragLord »

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
« Antwort #137 am: 27. Aug 2015, 02:49 »
Zitat
Elrond: alive in first age
Galadriel: alive in first age
Celeborn: alive in first age
Glorfindel: alive in first age

they are not blacksmithers 

Der Dunkle König

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Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
« Antwort #138 am: 27. Aug 2015, 02:52 »
You say that it is possible because of their mass distribution or shape, but I want to know how exactly it works. I doubt that it is possible at all.

And I think I haven't said it yet, but I agree with korner, I think these ballistas are quite stupid. I don't believe that they could work in any way (, and i agree with Gnomi about physics in Middle-earth,) and I don't think that they are usefull at all. Why didn't the dwarves use shields against the arrows? If they really wanted to arrive quickly at the Erebor, why did they bother with bringing the ballistas all the way from the Iron hills? I think Peter Jacksons just wanted to put another special effect into the movie, of which is already has way to much, just because it might look cool, without deliberating if it really makes sense.

"Außerhalb der Weltkreise werde ich niemanden verfolgen denn außerhalb der Welt ist nichts. Doch innerhalb der Welt werden sie mir nicht entkommen, bis sie in das Nichts eintreten."

CragLord

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Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
« Antwort #139 am: 27. Aug 2015, 03:00 »
Moment theorem on google.  :)

Because of shape there is distance between force attacking points on arrow. This causes momentum of those forces, whic causes rotation.
P.S. I am graduated student of physics btw. :P :P :P What you what to believe that is your decision. :P And send some regards to korner when you see him on german part of forum.
Cheers bro

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
« Antwort #140 am: 27. Aug 2015, 03:00 »
You say that it is possible because of their mass distribution or shape, but I want to know how exactly it works. I doubt that it is possible at all.

And I think I haven't said it yet, but I agree with korner, I think these ballistas are quite stupid. I don't believe that they could work in any way (, and i agree with Gnomi about physics in Middle-earth,) and I don't think that they are usefull at all. Why didn't the dwarves use shields against the arrows? If they really wanted to arrive quickly at the Erebor, why did they bother with bringing the ballistas all the way from the Iron hills? I think Peter Jacksons just wanted to put another special effect into the movie, of which is already has way to much, just because it might look cool, without deliberating if it really makes sense.
what if wee wait for the actual extended edition first watch some more about those
ballistas and then decide if they are stupid or not whada ya say ???

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
« Antwort #141 am: 27. Aug 2015, 03:07 »
In one of the screen I posted I surrounded the Arrow with Red line where can be seen what I believe is.the chain running trough the length of the Arrow and when the Arrow is fired it.begin to rotate and the chain is unleashed is attached to the back end of the Arrow and begin to rotate with the Arrow itself!
The other part about.how much can it fly well that depends on the strength of the Ballista if it can fire it with enough strength tp create enough cenetic energy for the Arrow to stat long enough in yhe air and j think that the Dwarven Ballista will have strength to fire it and  at least 100 -150 meter which is more than enough! :-) Over all I think it is quite possible and believable to some degree! :-)
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
« Antwort #142 am: 27. Aug 2015, 03:16 »
i wanna hear what crag lord has to say is it possible ?

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
« Antwort #143 am: 27. Aug 2015, 03:21 »
Of course it is possible but the Arrow wont be able to fly likr 500 meters :D
Also the weight distribution,well the Head Of.the.Arrow can be made heavier and the bacl.lighter to compensate for the weight of the Chain ! :-) And with the proper cutings and shape changes I do believe it is possible! :-)
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
« Antwort #144 am: 27. Aug 2015, 03:26 »
that s good then. jesus i wanna see the extended edition 
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Aug 2015, 03:51 von Gandalf The Gray »

CragLord

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Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
« Antwort #145 am: 27. Aug 2015, 03:32 »
Gray, stop worship me!  :D
Dain have right, it is possible in theory. Mass distribution, very light chain, and even then problem would be air resistance on rotating chain.
In general, it could fly, not straight like in trailer, and distance will be problematic. That would depent on mass, starting energy etc
That is observation from real world. :) It is possible ofc, but not to straight like in trailer. :P No more from me about this matter, I am going to sleep. ;)

P.S. Good night, or morning!? :) :P
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Aug 2015, 03:39 von CragLord »

Walküre

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Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
« Antwort #146 am: 27. Aug 2015, 03:38 »
As I have written above there is still a difference between things which look magical and things which are really magical. The dwarves were really good - but they used solid and not magical arts. Everyone with enough talent could have learned it - but the dwarves just had more talent than humen and most elves. Therefore it seemed magical.
But the elves were able to use some kind of magic (glowing blades when orcs are near) and those things weren't learnable. The dwarves weren't able to such things, simple because they weren't elves. But very talented elves are able to learn all of the dwarven techniques. (but there were way more talented dwarves than elves^^)


Gnomi, I think we are probably saying similar things with different words  :)

What is generally known as 'Magic' or 'magical' should be rightly considered as an exclusive/natural Art or Knowledge, and, if we talk about the Elves, absolutely not replicable by the other races; but, as I wrote above, it's very unlikely that the Elves consider themselves or their artefacts really 'infused' by Magic, as an additional quality which comes out of nowhere.
The Elves 'just' regard their creations and power as a 'natural' Knowledge/Art of theirs, which is not replicable by the other races, because this kind of Knowledge refers and is ineluctably bound to their own nature.
The Elves thus know how to make swords shine in specific conditions as a 'common' Art/Knowledge of theirs, just like Yavanna knows how to raise enormous and enlightening Trees from the ground by chanting, or like Varda knows how to craft Stars  :)

The Dwarves and the Humans too have their own proper and specific Arts, but they obviously lack the 'magical' characteristics of the Elven ones, and can be learnt as well by the Elves themselves, because the Elves were the first ones to awaken as fully sentient beings in the World, and were endowed with much more Gifts.

Then, said these things, I never wrote that the Dwarves can use as well the Elven Magic/Arts, or that they can defy the physical laws of the World.
I wrote that they, as a specific race with a specific nature, surely possess secret and specific Arts (their natural Arts), which would easily be able to craft advanced machines or engineering systems; so much advanced to be regarded as 'magical' or impossible by mainly Humans (as we all are  :D), as a mostly scientific and strictly rational approach is exactly one of their (our) characteristics  :)
It's not really crucial focusing strictly on this PJ's interpretation, since the topic could certainly involve any type of other 'advanced' machines.
The significant point is that the Dwarves can surely count on unknown and ancient Arts and technics, which make the creation of anti-arrows nets (or other numerous things) easily possible.

I admit, though, that I would have never imagined that a scene of very few seconds, concerning ballistas, could have created a so deep and interesting debate about the very foundations of the Tolkien's Legendarium  :)

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
« Antwort #147 am: 27. Aug 2015, 03:54 »
It will take really great calculations and even finer craftsmanship but I do believe that Dwarves are able to make those Arrows with the proper mass distribution,shape and cuttings on the Arrows and proper material and can make that kind of weapon even if it wi not be with so big range but it is a ballista so it is not supposed to fly long ad Long Bow Arrows so 50-100 meters will be more than enough and plus the first meters the Arrow will be able to fly straight but only briefly not the whole  ! :-)
To summarize I believe that Dwarves have the skills and brains it takes to create that weapon and even more it.can work to some degree but still to be effective enough! :-)
Greetings mates! :-)
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

Walküre

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Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
« Antwort #148 am: 27. Aug 2015, 04:24 »
Also, I would like to address everyone who joined this discussion.

I saw that in the previous comments the matter has really become 'technical' and scientific, involving physical statements and debates on the general aerodynamic laws.

I just personally think that, though interesting these discussions could ever be, at the end of the day, speaking about the Tolkien's Universe, it could be really pointless and counterproductive having this kind of approach to these themes, mainly related to pure logic and scientific methods.
If one really wanted to see through the core and the deep Nature of this fictional World (the overall portrait), I think that a kind of natural 'suspension of logic' (pure logic) should be necessary, as it happens in most of the fantasy tales that are set in a apparently very realistic World.
Otherwise, you should necessarily question everything with that strictly logical approach, asking yourself why, given the general laws of Time, Space and Matter, the Elves are generally not affected by Time, how the Dwarves and the Númenóreans can live over 100 years, how can Giant Eagles are capable of thinking and speaking as sentient beings, or how can exist Lands in which nothing withers or rots, affected by Time...

As I also wrote on the Lore Corner once, I honestly don't regard pure and mathematical logic to be really the most suitable approach with which you should deal with these particular topics  :)
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Aug 2015, 04:29 von DieWalküre »

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: The Hobbit Trilogy
« Antwort #149 am: 27. Aug 2015, 04:44 »
Well I said in my first posts I said that wr shouldn't look too deep on faacts and logic since it is a fantasy magical world but few people continued to say that it wasn't possible from physics aspect since Middle Earth physics were like Real World ones and I decided to prove that with properl knowledge,skills and materials it is possible and quite believable ! :-) Thats why I explained to the best of my knowledge and abilities on logical scientific and engineering aspect,although I fo agree with you Walkure that we should look on it as a fantasy world as it is! :-)  Where nearly everything is possible! :-)
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Aug 2015, 05:05 von LordDainIronfoot »
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."