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Autor Thema: Rohan Late Game Suggestions  (Gelesen 2919 mal)

Elite KryPtik

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Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« am: 27. Mai 2015, 17:41 »
I have been thinking a lot about Rohan late game, because right now they cannot stand up to fully upgraded Uruk-Hai or Tower Guards, or Mordor's free orc spam supported by all those damn heroes with their debuffs. I have a few ideas, and I think all of them have merit and are balanced, and fit within the lore of Rohan.

Firstly I want to address something that irks me rather badly. ALL factions in this mod have multiple varying bonuses they get from resource buildings. Mordor and Gondor have 4, Isengard has 3, and Rohan has only 1, from their stud farm. They badly need more bonuses, so I'm going to suggest my ideas on this matter.
Firstly, farms should reduce the cost of all infantry, including archers, so that 6 farms bring the price down 50%, making peasants dirt cheap. This would compensate their weakness greatly, and give Rohan a viable infantry option late-game, that could even counter spam Mordor to a certain extent.

My next idea was to change the inner flour mill to a militia camp/training facility/recruitment camp, that can only be built inside camps/castles/outposts. It still generates resources and can still train the same peasants, but it gives a global defence boost to armor against pikes, ONCE the structure reaches level 3. 2 of these structures is 30%, 3 is 35% and so on, to a max of 6 is 50%. This I think would help balance the late game vulnerability to pikes, and give the player an option to go for cheap horseman through stud farms, or strong ones through the training camp. Or they could get both through outer stud farms and forsake infantry, opening different strategies. Because of the limited build plots in a Rohan castle, this would also assure that Rohirrim wouldn't be invincible against pikes until an outpost was claimed.

My last idea for this would be to have the Assembly Point give a bonus globally to troop build speed, with 2 giving +30% build speed, 3 giving 40%, and 4 giving 50%. This would be representative of the building's function as a rallying point, and could mesh quite well with a farm heavy peasant rush. This would also synergize AMAZINGLY with the idea of kreso/ziging, to put the current military camp as an outpost and have a 10 point power that turns all peasants into riders. Say normal peasants become Rohirrim, farmhands become Rohirrim of the Eastfold, and Yeoman Archers become Rohirrim Archers.

Next, I'll post a suggestion which I have mentioned many times now in my English Translation documents. Right now Théoden does not gain any effect to his leadership when he hits level 7, even though the description claims he does. My suggestion would be to give him a +50% trample deceleration buff, so that Rohirrim around him could crush through armies even longer. This would also give them late game strength, ensuring they aren't OP in early-mid game.

Another suggestion of mine was to give all Rohirrim a passive resistance to pikes when they reach their max level, something like +35% - +50%. This would help them significantly against a pike spam late game, and would represent their army from the books and films quite nicely, as they start out as ragtag peasants and become the most feared cavalry force in all Middle Earth by then end of the war. That's all the suggestions I have for Rohan late game at this time, cheers :D
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Mai 2015, 17:49 von Elite KryPtik »
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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #1 am: 27. Mai 2015, 19:50 »
Your ideas are very fine, but I have one concern: do you really think that Rohan late-game is bad? I'm not so sure about that.
Anyway, your ideas would had more diversity inside a faction that could use some more. Thus, you got my support even if it calls for some nerfs later.


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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #2 am: 27. Mai 2015, 21:50 »
I most support You because we have agreed in a lot of things. You really have senes for this :D

And just follow Peter's films and Tolkien's books and all would be fine.

Mordor will always spam orc warrios but Rohirrims will smash them.
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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #3 am: 27. Mai 2015, 21:55 »
I'm not sure if the peasants spam thing is actually a good idea. You already have many peasants barracks (farms) and a Rohan late game shouldn't be about lame farmers army rather than a glorious Rohirrim assembly.
and a power that instantly turn all your peasants to riders would be OP as hell, since you can just spam next-to-free-peasants then out of nowhere have a wave of horses charging right into the enemy without worrying about losses cause you can always get more cheap farmers.
And the rally point extra bonus is totally unneeded. since when is Rohan known for pumping out armies like that?!
People speak about the Orcs spam, but now they would get farmers spam?  [uglybunti]

On the other hand I quite like the bonus that the Rohirrim would get on lvl5 (ok maybe 50% resistance is too much) it would give you a stronger reason to keep your units alive.

The buildings bonus might make some sense for infantry, but I don't agree about archers. I just can't see a reason for it :|
And then again, the peasants cost what 100?200? reducing their cost further would kill the faction completely. since when did good factions countered the Orc spam with a spam of their own?
In fact Rohan is probably one of the best faction to counter the spam because they have a relatively cheap cav units! I mean that's the whole point of Rohan, right? the cav!

I also not much a fan of the "Camp on the outpost" idea. However, a change in Theoden's leadership might be nice for late game (I think this change should come at lvl10).

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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #4 am: 27. Mai 2015, 22:33 »
hoho96
I agree for that peasants spam isn't good idea. I think peasnts should cost 200 and they most be 2lvl to get that horeses. Theoden's leadership should give extra xp bonus and his skill Times of Glory (5 or 6 or 7 lvl  skill) should be changed into some healing. :)
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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #5 am: 27. Mai 2015, 22:38 »
That "peasant/bowmen to cavalry" stuff could have some limitations, I am thinking about a final power, once activated, for 1 minute the stud farm will automatically transform any infantry units near it to cavalry units(lv 1 no upgrade), however, in this period the stud farm will generate no resources

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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #6 am: 28. Mai 2015, 05:23 »
I agree for that peasants spam isn't good idea. I think peasnts should cost 200 and they most be 2lvl to get that horeses. Theoden's leadership should give extra xp bonus and his skill Times of Glory (5 or 6 or 7 lvl  skill) should be changed into some healing. :)
Théoden already has a skill to increase experience gain, called Hour of Glory, and both Elfhelm and Hama give passive healing to units. I think that adding a requirement to have the peasants be level 2 is a good idea.

That "peasant/bowmen to cavalry" stuff could have some limitations, I am thinking about a final power, once activated, for 1 minute the stud farm will automatically transform any infantry units near it to cavalry units(lv 1 no upgrade), however, in this period the stud farm will generate no resources
Would this REALLY be worth it as a 10 point power? Compare it to the current 10 point power, which by itself can generate a full, free, permanent standing army of fully upgraded Rohirrim. It needs to be comparable to that.

Alright hoho here is my rebuttal. My idea to balance the 10 point power. Say that the level 10 power transforms all to cavalry, but a weaker form of cavalry. Call them something like "Peasant Horsemen" and make them like half as effective as Rohirrim, but still dangerous in numbers, kind of like the traitors on horses, but can receive upgrades and level up.

Right now, against an Isengard pike/shieldbearer spam or a Gondor Tower Guard spam, Rohan will lose. If you don't believe me we can play and you can try it, the only place Rohan has a chance is early and mid game. Late game, once the enemy has their heroes and fully upgraded pikes, you can forget about killing them with cavalry.

For the Assembly Point bonus, it wouldn't necessarily need to be so strong, it could be something like 4 of them gives a 30% boost. But seriously, just compare this to other factions:
Rohan gets 1 SINGLE special discount on cavalry. That's it.
Gondor gets a discount on cavalry, upgrades, AND elite units, and a power recharge time decrease bonus from their buildings. Also their stoneworkers can give them discounted buildings.
Mordor gets discounts on trolls, all orcs, power recharge times, and upgrades.
Isengard gets an incredible building discount from Lumber Mills, a discount on units and upgrades, and their outpost makes their upgrades insanely strong. Pikes with those upgrade buffs and shieldbearer/captain combo completely demolish Rohirrim, no contest. After directly comparing the factions you can see the gap my suggestions are trying to fill. You also are not taking into account that building 4 assembly points requires 4 settlement spots, and they don't generate resources, and they cost 850 to get fully armed and operation. That's a NASTY hit on economy, but the building speed improvement combined with the healing effect of the assembly point would give some interesting strategies to a skilled player.

Also, you say since when has Rohan been known for huge peasant armies, and for making huge armies quickly. I draw your attention to both the movie and book, in both the army starts out as a ground force of militia, who use a shield wall tactic. Once Théoden calls the Muster of the Rohirrim, everybody who can bear arms comes to dunharrow 6000 troops in only 2 DAYS. All of those infantry then mount horses, and become the mighty force we know and love from the Pelennor. So this would represent them perfectly, doing a peasant spam and then using the 10 point power to make them all mounted is an identical representation of what happens in both the film and the book. Heck, you could even call the 10 point power "Muster the Rohirrim!"

For the Farm bonus, firstly I'll address that some players don't do all outer farms and spam peasants, but do outer stud farms for the discount on cavalry. Me personally, I usually only do 1 single outer Peasant Farm near my base so I can use corrupted Théoden's taxes power on it for the early game money, and I use a few battalions of Traitors to help me hold the line. Giving all Infantry a discount would add a serious incentive to have an infantry build for the game, not to mention making it worth it at all to make archers. It would also mesh very nicely with Gamling's late game skill Rapid Deployment Order, which right now probably doesn't get used a whole lot, because like you said late game Rohan only has cavalry, for now anyways. Also, with this idea an army of fully upgraded peasants and archers wouldn't really be "a lame farmer army" it would be a force to be reckoned with, used properly with heroes. I think it would be good for the forces of light to have a spam faction as well, it would add some great diversity to the gameplay.

So that's my rebuttal. REALLY think about it everything I've mentioned here and the effects it would have on the gameplay, and you'll see that none of this would really be that overpowered. Rohan only gets 7 build plots in their castle, you need 1 for stables, 1 for armory, and usually 1 for a well, leaving only 4 inner build plots for stud farms or the recruitment camp/training grounds/whatever you want to call it building that I suggested. On most maps holding 6 outer farms against a player who can harass decently is no small feat. So getting any of these bonuses is not gonna be easy, same as any other faction. It would just give the player some options for different playstyles, rather than just early peasant spam followed by all cavalry, or an all cavalry rush. Rohan has no infantry option right now mid to late game, not a serious one anyways, and this would cement them as having the 2nd weakest, but also 2nd cheapest infantry. The only army they have a chance to beat late game is Mordor, but even Mordor can just do a pike spam combined with the debuffs of the Nazgul and murder them. Rohirrim without leadership don't stand a chance once their Glorious Charge runs out. Also, instead of just bashing me  :D come up with some bonuses of your own! Debate is great, but only if it produces good ideas  :) All of the ideas I gave could of course have their effects nerfed a bit too, I just used up to 50% as an example. I'm awaiting your reply  ;)

EDIT: I also have another suggestion, lower the standard Rohirrim units CP to 60 like infantry.
« Letzte Änderung: 28. Mai 2015, 06:36 von Elite KryPtik »
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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #7 am: 28. Mai 2015, 11:53 »
I have to disagree with you on those building bonuses, KryPtik. You say that Rohan has too few of them, which is a little bit too easy. The rally point provides in-field reinforcements, which is a unique trait only Rohan has and it can be incredibly powerful. Rohan farms also have a unique trait only Rohan (and in the full version MM) has: they are barracks as well as resource buildings at the same time. In the demo, Rohan is the "in-your-face" faction, they have cheap but decent swordsmen and can recruit from all over the map. Combine that with their relatively cheap cavalry that you can support so well with heroes or the spellbook and you really give your opponent a hard time. No faction (maybe Isengard, but they need some tweaks anyway) can put on the pressure as early as Rohan, that is their biggest strength. Allowing them to reduce the cost of their infantry would be a gg in any matchup, nobody would even build cavalry anymore.

For the Assembly point bonus, I honestly don't think it is necessary. It already is strong (I'm repeating myself here, I know) without a bonus. Let's compare it to exterior buildings from other factions without a bonus: Gondors beacon recruits units, their ranger camp recruits units and a hero, Isengard can recruit units and a hero from Dunland, Mordor can recruit units from Cirith Ungol. The Assembly point does all that, but can heal and has an archer upgrade. It is fine as it is in my opinion.


Zitat von: Elite KryPtik
Right now, against an Isengard pike/shieldbearer spam or a Gondor Tower Guard spam, Rohan will lose. If you don't believe me we can play and you can try it, the only place Rohan has a chance is early and mid game.
What if I told you that this is how it should be?^^
I'm overexaggerating here, but still: Each faction has different strengths and weaknesses. Rohans strengths are aggressive infantry plays and strong cavalry in the early and mid game. You can use these to build an advantage that the enemy cannot compensate. Gondor reaches its peak later; Tower Guards are strong (especially vs Rohan) but expensive just like rangers. They also get Aragorn and Gandalf, two very expensive LG heroes. Isengard shieldbearers and berserkers also are lategame units and you should have the upper hand as long as he doesn't have uruks and a functioning economy. Unfortunately both of these things happen rather soon atm, which is why Isengard is so powerful^^

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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #8 am: 28. Mai 2015, 12:13 »
So you think that Rohan should just have no chance at all late game? I understand each faction should have different strengths and weaknesses, but to completely disregard a faction in late game, especially considering how much harder it is to kill a full castle in this excellent mod, pretty much kills the faction in a players eyes. Rohan is very strong early and mid game, and I do recognize that, but if you can't seal the deal than you automatically lose late game. If that is the way you want it to stay then so be it, but it seems a little bit self defeating for players to bother playing Rohan at all in that case. I mean, if you know going in that you don't kill the enemy player in 20 mins or you lose, that's pretty disheartening :( I have seen this sentiment all over the English forums, people saying that Rohan cannot stand up against other factions. All of the other factions have some strong late game units, and Mordor is strong in all 3 stages of the game, so all I'm arguing is to give that same attention to detail to Rohan. Not that the team hasn't already taken the original Rohan faction from EA and made them like twice as good, but with what's been done with the other factions, especially Mordor, Rohan leaves quite a bit to be desired in terms of differentiating strategies.

Now the building bonuses are debatable, don't get me wrong, I was just giving my take on them. But they should get SOMETHING else, because although the Assembly Point does give an excellent healing bonus, it dies incredibly easy to even 1 battering ram or a few battalions of swordsmen. Pretty much every other faction gets something to reduce the cost of upgrades, so that could be added. Also don't ignore my idea for the building that grants resistance to pikes at level 3, that alone would significantly help Rohan late game without making them OP. All I'm really trying to do is get people to list ideas for Rohan late game, instead of just disagreeing with mine :P They really do need something, or else I believe people just won't play as them in the long run. Hopefully once the game is more complete, maybe Isengard and Mordor will be a little less OP, and then the discussion might not be so fiery :D
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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #9 am: 28. Mai 2015, 13:15 »
No, I don't think that Rohan should just have no chance at all late game, that is what I meant with overexaggerating^^ Probably poor choice of words there.
What I was trying to say is that if Gondor gets to those later stages of the game while still being in good shape, it should have an advantage over Rohan. The Rohan player on the other hand can deny Gondor this advantage because of his early pressure. So versus a good Gondor player you will lost the late game most of the times, while a good Rohan player won't let Gondor get to the late game most of the times^^

Also don't ignore my idea for the building that grants resistance to pikes at level 3, that alone would significantly help Rohan late game without making them OP. All I'm really trying to do is get people to list ideas for Rohan late game, instead of just disagreeing with mine :P
I was actually planning to comment on the infantry cost decrease only because I found that to be the most problematic. I went a little bit off topic afterwards, so sorry for not being constructive^^
Cavalry being more resistant to pikes is bad most of the times in my opinion. If pikes don't kill cavalry, what then? I prefer suggestions like making the Hama summon (his lvl 10 ability) stay permanently so you have more elite infantry at your disposal.

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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #10 am: 28. Mai 2015, 14:54 »
Don't sweat it, it can be hard to convey what you really mean in text :) That's also a good idea, I never considered making the Hama summon permanent, I support that. Well anyways I have listed all my late game ideas. The ones that I would like to see most would be the Rohirrim getting a passive pike resistance at max level, so you would really have to earn it by keeping them alive, and Théoden getting a trample deceleration buff at level 7 on his leadership. I also really believe that Rohan should get at least 1 more bonus from structures, as the other factions have between 3 and 5 each. If these ideas of mine are too OP or whatever, than Rohan needs a better infantry option than Peasants to counter pikes late game, so you could have a split army. I've already listed all the other ideas I have for Rohan late game improvement, so I'm not going to act like a broken record and keep repeating them :D I hope some people can post some useful ideas here though, that's why I created this topic.
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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #11 am: 28. Mai 2015, 16:12 »
Will you also reconsider the ring hero of Rohan? Now the one ring is totally use less when Theoden regain consciousness

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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #12 am: 28. Mai 2015, 17:15 »
What? You're telling me that having a global insane leadership and making Theodred, Eomer and Eowyn invulnerable is useless? I strongly disagre on that point dude. ^^

EDIT: The idea about making foot Royal Guard permanent is great! Elite units are so cool and so fun anyways. :D I would also appreciate if you make The White Company permanent (Beregond's power when he is 10)
« Letzte Änderung: 28. Mai 2015, 17:19 von Adrigabbro »


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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #13 am: 28. Mai 2015, 20:14 »
Yeah, Théoden's Ring Hero powers are awesome. Also the white company is permanent, and take up a lot of CP as well :P
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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #14 am: 28. Mai 2015, 20:56 »
I think you are misthinking with the guardians of the White City, the ring Boromir elite unit.


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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #15 am: 28. Mai 2015, 21:04 »
I think you are misthinking with the guardians of the White City, the ring Boromir elite unit.
White company becomes permanent after beregond reaches lv 10

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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #16 am: 28. Mai 2015, 21:39 »
Ok, then I'll check next time. That's cool.


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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #17 am: 31. Mai 2015, 12:54 »
If you add elite royal footguards it could make rohan a bit strong, enough to counter the units buff of isengard, or the morgul- dolguldur orcs of mordor, i mean, you can make an unique outpost for rohan, maybe  a representation of Meduseld, where you can recruit this units, and give any bonus to the troops. It could be awesome and make rohan playstile more interesting.

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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #18 am: 6. Jun 2015, 02:07 »
Actually, I think Rohan could use a totally different recruitment system called "general mobilization", it could be a command in the Rohan Camp or Citadel after gaining the final power. Once activated all farms stop generating resources but automatically produce fully armed units

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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #19 am: 6. Jun 2015, 08:39 »
Specify a bit more, if you mean produce units non-stop permanently, that would be an unstoppable unit spam. Also if the farms stopped generating resources you would run out pretty quick from having to revive heroes and such.
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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #20 am: 6. Jun 2015, 15:50 »
I think Rohan should have a recruitment mechanism which enables them to summon a large army quickly in the late game. It could be a command in the Rohan camp, and players could switch between "war footing" and normal modes. Of course it should have some cooldown time between the switch

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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #21 am: 13. Jul 2015, 02:24 »
I get another idea, for Rohan late game strength.

Give an extra upgrade in the royal camp summoned 10 points power,"banner of Eorl", this can only be available after you get all other upgrades in the camp and Theoden reaches Lv 10.

This would provide a global leadership for all Rohan heroes once purchased, it will strengthen the final ability of all Rohan heroes.

The cool down time of Theoden, Theored,Eowyn(shield maid and no man I am) and Merry's final abilities and three captains' abilities will be shorten a lot;

The final ability of Eomer becomes "fearless charge", for 15 seconds nearby cavalry will not slow down when crushed enemy infantry and will cause nearby enemy flee uncontrollably, I never like his final ability anyway.

The final ability of Hama will summon royal guard permanently, three hordes at most. The Royal guard could switch to mounted, and could use sword or bow when mounted

The final ability of Gamling, "General mobilization", Gamling summon every men possible to Dunharrow on behalf of King Theoden, for 30 seconds, accelerate the recruitment speed of all stables, ranges and farms, Rohan Infantry will be transformed into corresponding calavary once they approach stud farms/stables/Royal Camp. The cool down time will depend on how many Gathering Bells you have, for each Gathering Bells it will recharge 10% faster, 30% the most.

Anyway, I don't think add elite infantry will be suitable for Rohan's style and background in the book, we should strengthen the heroes and cavalry further instead.
« Letzte Änderung: 13. Jul 2015, 02:57 von ziqing »

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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #22 am: 13. Jul 2015, 03:04 »
Another idea is canceling the Royal Camps power, (Royal camp will be upgraded from the "expatriation camp" from another thread). The final 10 points power will be "Oath of Eorl", which summon a large army from Gondor, just like the final power of Arnor

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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #23 am: 13. Jul 2015, 03:47 »
I think the post before last is a great idea, strengthening the heroes and cavalry and making heroes level 10 powers stronger is a good way to improve their late game. But cavalry would still have a tough time versus a pike army. One idea which I'm not sure I've posted before is to make Rohan cavalry only cost 60 command points, so they could get really huge armies of Rohirrim.
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Re: Rohan Late Game Suggestions
« Antwort #24 am: 13. Jul 2015, 03:54 »
I think the post before last is a great idea, strengthening the heroes and cavalry and making heroes level 10 powers stronger is a good way to improve their late game. But cavalry would still have a tough time versus a pike army. One idea which I'm not sure I've posted before is to make Rohan cavalry only cost 60 command points, so they could get really huge armies of Rohirrim.
God bless my CPU then.