Elrond - Lord of Imladris

[Bogdan Hmel]

Greetings to all the fans Edain mod. Let me make my suggestion regarding Lord Imladris. Immediately apologize for my English.
I agree that Elrond should be more powerful and cost 3000
But I do not agree with your proposal, Walküre and Tiberius Ogden. First, you say that skills must be unique, but you want to remove the “Restoration” - Elrond’s most iconic skill.
Secondly, you want to add more mass slayer skills. My opinion, it is the obsession with the role of the character that makes the game boring. There is nothing worse than a hero who has 5 one-sided skills.
At the same time, I omit the argument that Elrond during the "War for the Ring" is not suitable for the role of a mass slayer.
Thirdly, the desire to make a modification as much as possible corresponding to knowledge, very complicates the game. Do not forget that this is, first of all, a computer game.
I want my opinion to look like constructive criticism, I do not want to offend you, Walküre and Tiberius Ogden. You are the leaders of this community and have done a lot for him.

Now back to Lord Imladris himself
I also want Elrond to be stronger and more interesting. In addition, I think he is not very useful up to level 5 - water horses do little damage, and the ability to mount a horse gives almost nothing.
I have two suggestions for changing Elrond. Both are built around three ideas. First: Elrond is the best healer of Middle-earth, he must have one skill with healing. Secondly, his ability to mount a horse is boring and takes one slot, I suggest (this idea was expressed earlier) to combine the ability to mount a horse and the ability of “Ancient Equipment”. By the way, it will be unique, not a single hero has a leadership and a horse in one slot. And finally, the ability of "Rage of the Loudwater " looks like a mockery of the power of the lord Imladris. I propose to carry it to later levels and make it more powerful.
So, option 1:

Level 1: Wise Advice. Elrond is one of the wisest inhabitants of Middle-earth, he helps advice to other heroes. The selected hero temporarily gets an increased vision range and + 50% gaining experience. At higher levels it's possible add an increase in the speed of movement.
Level 3: Ancient Equipment. This skill does not change, only the ability to mount a horse is added to it.
Level 5: Restoration. Please return healing to this skill!
Level 7: Rage of the Loudwater. It must be a really powerful stream.
Level 10: Vilya's Wrath. I propose to strengthen the ability with a passive bonus to surrounding units: + 25% armor against arrows. When a skill is activated, the bonus increases to 50%, Elrond surrounds himself with a whirlwind (More powerful than it is now) and additionally gets increased movement speed.

Option 2: I have an idea to make the skill Vilya passive.  I saw that there was already someone offering, but I came up with it myself, honestly 

Ring Vilya. Lord of Imladris uses the strongest of the ring to heal wounds and protect allies. With gaining levels, this ability is enhanced. Level 1: Allies near Elrond slowly restore health when not fighting. Level 4: Allies get protection from poison and elemental damage. Level 6: Allies get protection from magic, buildings near Elrond — +50% armor. Level 9: The allies near Elrond get immune to fear, and enemies lose 10-15% of their movement speed. (This shows how Vilya slows down the passage of time).
Level 3: Ancient Equipment. This skill does not change, only the ability to mount a horse is added to it.
Level 5: Restoration. Since Elrond already has healing, I suggest adding a temporary bonus to heroes in the form of + 25% damage and armor.
Level 7: Rage of the Loudwater. It must be a really powerful stream.
Level 10: Vilya's Wrath. I propose to strengthen the ability with a passive bonus to surrounding units: + 25% armor against arrows. When a skill is activated, the bonus increases to 50%, Elrond surrounds himself with a whirlwind (More powerful than it is now) and additionally gets increased movement speed.

In the end, it turns out that Vilya gives two abilities - it is unique and emphasizes that it is the main elven ring.
P.s. It would be cool if Elrond gets his gold armor at level 10. 
This option makes Elrond very strong, but this is exactly what I want. I used to offer to make the faction leaders more powerful ( https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35480.0.html ). New skills Galadriel make her just that.

[Tiberius Ogden]

You've basically created Elrond from 3.8.1. and threw brick not only into our proposal, but into Edain mod concepts and roles as well.
I agree with you that roles can be complicated (for instance in Lorien or Rohan are heroes with "forced roles" for me), but Imladris concerning roles is fine and everything fits quite well.

But I do not agree with your proposal, Walküre and Tiberius Ogden. First, you say that skills must be unique, but you want to remove the “Restoration” - Elrond’s most iconic skill.
Secondly, you want to add more mass slayer skills. My opinion, it is the obsession with the role of the character that makes the game boring. There is nothing worse than a hero who has 5 one-sided skills.
At the same time, I omit the argument that Elrond during the "War for the Ring" is not suitable for the role of a mass slayer.
Thirdly, the desire to make a modification as much as possible corresponding to knowledge, very complicates the game. Do not forget that this is, first of all, a computer game.

By the way these points we've already answered either here or on Moddb many times and we're stick to our arguments, which are pretty solid.

[OakenShield224]

I know I said earlier that I support this idea, but the more time that passes, the more I’m starting to change my mind.

Firstly, I’m not entirely sure about the effect of full invincibility over all your castles/camps. I guess this would also apply to the tier 4 power for Angmar as well. While the Angmar power is slightly more reasonable since it would only affect the base that has the Stronghold of the Iron Crown, the balance doesn’t really make as much sense since the Angmar power is harder to access but has a lesser effect (just considering the invincibility not the other effects). The main issue I have with Elrond’s power is that it massively reduces comeback potential for the player that isn’t Imladris especially if they aren’t doing as well as the Imladris player which is likely as you’d only really have access to the power if you are in the late game. In general, it would massively increase snowballing (speaking as someone who isn’t a beta tester and so doesn’t know what the Team are doing to work on that issue for 4.5). I also just think that it isn’t really that interesting of a power and can limit the gameplay. There’s no need for having to outsmart or outplay your opponent if you can power straight through any attempts that they might have with invincibility. There are some more interesting ideas that could be done with the concept of a timeless sanctuary (some of which have been suggested by Aule in this thread).

I also have issues with the fact that Elrond’s role as a healer through Restoration has been removed. I know the points that Tiberius has made about Elrond’s current Restoration not having a heal and Walkure’s points about Galadriel being the new big hero supporter. However, let us not forget that Elrond was the greatest healer present in Middle Earth during the War of the Ring. He personally healed Frodo from the Morgul blade, something which I feel is much more important for the whole story and more iconic than Galadriel letting Gandalf recover in Lorien or appearing to Frodo in a vision in the film. In addition to that, he healed his wife Celebrian and it can be assumed that he taught Aragorn, Elladan and Elrohir the elven healing methods (after the Battle of Pelennor Fields, Aragorn calls for the Twins to help him heal the wounded). Elrond was a healer first, warrior second, and it seems a shame to have most of his abilities focus on the later.

With the argument that Arwen is the hero supporter for Imladris…well she isn’t really. She has a heal and the hero buffs via the spellbook but that’s it. She then has a fear ability, a speed increase and unit support ability. She’s about as much of a hero supporter as Aragorn is. Arwen will also become less effective as a hero supporter in 4.5, with her spellbook buff going from increased healing and power restoration to just better healing. If you are worried about the faction having too much healing, then there are other ways of representing Elrond’s influence (for example the restoration of powers). If you’re then worried about not having enough spaces in Elrond’s ability slots, then his mount could be included in Ancient Equipment. With the balance issue involved with the Last Alliance, any ability restoration powers could be modified so that they only affect permanent heroes, therefore avoiding the issue of having Gil-Galad devastate enemies twice in a short space of time. Then there’s the issue of Galadriel having similar abilities and it not being “unique” enough. Well I’ve already argued for how Elrond is more deserving of the healing and restoring role than Galadriel. Plus, if you’re only going to allow abilities for how unique they are, then it would just get increasingly more difficult to make good concepts for the mod. Saying that Elrond shouldn’t have the Restoration because Galadriel has it already would mean that you’d then have to rework Aranarth who can also restore abilities. The idea of making a base invulnerable isn’t “unique” as Angmar has a very similar ability as I have mentioned previously.

I realise that any changes at this stage would probably be a lot of work (changing Elrond’s plans or going over established heroes like Arwen or Galadriel). However, I feel like this would still be worth it and I hope that you will consider it in your plans.

[Julio229]

Agreed fully with Oak's reasoning, we've discussed this and I have to agree that I'm not so sure about the invulnerability anymore, or Restoration going.

I don't have much to add, Oak explained it all pretty well, so looking forward to hear thoughts on this.

[Tiberius Ogden]

Firstly, I’m not entirely sure about the effect of full invincibility over all your castles/camps.

As you said - we can say the same about Stronghold of The Iron Crown which at least for me sounds more OP because it is permanent. Vilya is purely temporar.

There are some more interesting ideas that could be done with the concept of a timeless sanctuary (some of which have been suggested by Aule in this thread).

No, there aren't. 
I've suggested the same proposal as Aule - but we ruled it out with Walkure because speed recruitment for instance goes against logic of timeless. Vilya shouldn't accelarate speed, but completely contrary - slower it. It would mean that your oponent should be faster - ingame speaking - and not you. We think that  time aspect just isn't transferable into the game. Also support for structures has Cirdan.

I also have issues with the fact that Elrond’s role as a healer through Restoration has been removed. I know the points that Tiberius has made about Elrond’s current Restoration not having a heal and Walkure’s points about Galadriel being the new big hero supporter.
However, let us not forget that Elrond was the greatest healer present in Middle Earth during the War of the Ring. He personally healed Frodo from the Morgul blade, something which I feel is much more important for the whole story and more iconic than Galadriel letting Gandalf recover in Lorien or appearing to Frodo in a vision in the film.

Yes and no. He was great healer, but personally I see it in different way - Imladris was well known healing sanctuary not only because of Elrond healing skills, but also because of that place ... you could stay there as long as you wanted to regain your strength ... spa of Middle-earth. And this overall aspect is represented through the fountains and spellbook.
And concerning Galadriel - it was she who completely restored and healed Gandalf while Elrond was fighting with many Ringwraiths - even movie makers thought that Galadriel is hero supporter while Elrond like Saruman are mass slayers.
Not to mention her radiant aid across Middle-earth to Frodo. It clearly exceeded Elrond's healing skills.

Elrond was a healer first, warrior second, and it seems a shame to have most of his abilities focus on the later.

He was also the wisest elf in Middle-earth (of course there were Cirdan, Celeborn or Galadriel too, but none of them was so open and well known like Elrond). Gift of Foresight was also his dominant trait. Ok lets throw Edain roles under the train and include everything what we know or like concerning our heroes.

With the argument that Arwen is the hero supporter for Imladris…well she isn’t really. She has a heal and the hero buffs via the spellbook but that’s it. She then has a fear ability, a speed increase and unit support ability.

Well ... she is. ... Hero/unit supporter. But mainly ultimate healer of heroes. There isn't better hero healer than she.

If you are worried about the faction having too much healing, then there are other ways of representing Elrond’s influence (for example the restoration of powers).

Yeah, such half vanillla ability currently has and it's not fitting nor anything extra.

If you’re then worried about not having enough spaces in Elrond’s ability slots, then his mount could be included in Ancient Equipment.

Well, it's not typical. Mount is just a mount and armor usually comes with some buff for units/heroes.

Saying that Elrond shouldn’t have the Restoration because Galadriel has it already would mean that you’d then have to rework Aranarth who can also restore abilities.

Thanks for another reason to remove his restoration - it already isn't unique for Elrond because of Aranarth.
But funny thing is that Galadriel and Arannarth are hero supporters. But why mass slayer Elrond should have the skill which clearly fits only to hero supporter?

The idea of making a base invulnerable isn’t “unique” as Angmar has a very similar ability as I have mentioned previously.

It's pretty unique. Angmar ultimate spell is activated through spellbook and means permanent upgrade of your fortress. Vilya's protection is ultimate ability of the faction hero and is only temporar and doesn't add anything.

I realise that any changes at this stage would probably be a lot of work (changing Elrond’s plans or going over established heroes like Arwen or Galadriel)

Exactly. I can't imagine better mass slayer in Imladris, especially after Dol Guldur skirmish, than Elrond.
By the way, we think that Galadriel and Arwen are fine and have solid roles.

[Only True Witchking]

I too have to say that I'm not a big fan of the current proposal. The general idea for Vilya is great, and I would have supported the concept of a long-lasting resistance to different damage types (which sadly is impossible, as Elendil said), but invulnerability for the whole base + all units within seems quite OP.
It's a 10-point spell for Angmar, after all, and that should always be more powerful than a heros lvl 10 ability.

Also, as OakenShield224 already said, the overall concept of Elrond as a Mass-slayer is not very fitting; and to be honest, I am heavily against it.
In my opinion he should be the ultimate supporter, since that is all he does in Hobbit and LOTR - excluding that non-canonical piece from the first Hobbit-movie. So I would suggest to completely rework him.

Really, I personally would rework the whole Imladris hero-set, but that's something for another thread.

That would definitely not interfere with Galadriel, especially not if implemented in a clever way, since Galadriel seems more a jack-of-all trades at the moment, with one
ability that causes fear, two hero-support-abilities, one mass-destroying ability and one unit-/building-support.

The Mass-destruction could easily move over to Glorfindel or the Twins, who are known to have been outside Rivendell during the War of the Ring; Glorfindel at the Bruinen, and the Twins for example in the Grey Company (they also were among the scouts which Elrond sent out before the Fellowship left).

I think I'll add my own proposal for Elrond soon. Until that, I can only say that I agree with OakenShield and Julio.

Signed,
The Walking Death

PS: After writing this, I read the new comment by Tiberius Ogden, and I have to say, that I could really make arguments against all of the arguments that were used against OakenShields arguments, but I'm tired now and I'll do that tomorrow. Even Ringwraiths need some sleep.

[Tiberius Ogden]

Galadriel seems more a jack-of-all trades at the moment, with one
ability that causes fear, two hero-support-abilities, one mass-destroying ability and one unit-/building-support

Her basic skillset maybe, but through the gifts she is the best hero supporter in the entire game because all of her abilities affect heroes what makes from her clear hero support.

The Mass-destruction could easily move over to Glorfindel or the Twins

I think I'll add my own proposal for Elrond soon.

Then we're waiting on your proposal of new tank hero or hero killer in Imladris as well. It will be revolutionary rework of heroes from hidden sanctuary.

[Walküre]

Tiberius has already answered Oak's points, but I would like to offer my insight on things, too, in hopes that my comment could clear present or future doubts.
The following reply is therefore just to Oak's in-depth review of the concept.


Thank you for the detailed and thorough response, Oak. You gave me the precious opportunity to clarify a few things about the whole debate backing our choice, its peculiar traits and why we have come to such conclusion. I will even seize the chance to address other points that may have been perceived as a bit obscure or unclear in the main.

If you wish to withdraw, either momentarily or indefinitely, your positive vote, just let me know

Well, where to begin? I'll try to reply to every one of your remarks, in the briefest, most comprehensible way possible.

First of all, I can assure you that the team has spent unspeakable energy to make comebacks less of a dream for players; this is going to have a huge impact on the economy and command points. Secondarily, I'm of the sincere opinion that an invincible castle/camp would play out well. Imladris is a strong late-game faction, but it also cherishes quality above everything else. Even if Elven troops may be recruited already-upgraded via the spellbook, building up your army requires considerable efforts. Waiting inside the safety and bliss of your base for a while can be decisive, allowing you to weigh the moment carefully and judge whether it's worth sallying out or not.
Lore-wise, a defensive, fortress-centred feature suits the own history of Rivendell. More than other renditions would do, especially if another solution might lean towards offensive tactics.

Arwen is the supportive hero par excellence. A unit-supporter and hero-supporter character by definition. This is manifestly represented through both her abilities and the bonus conferred by her eponymous spell. If it weren't so, I have no idea which role could be appointed to her. And, if her holistic performance seems quite 'moderate', it's simply because of the fact that she's not a major hero of the faction. She was never meant to be a force to be reckoned with anyway.

Angmar and Arnor have (would have) similar features? Yes, they do, but I don't let that type of argument alter my view. The former is an evil faction and the own power will shroud the base in a nasty snowstorm, wherefore relating to a substantially different conceptualisation and connotation (fell winds and storm). As for the latter, I've never really paid attention to the glorious Northern Kingdom so far; not out of disinterest, but the faction is objectively a sui generis case. That is, a special typology of faction, which is not even available on every map. Not an ordinary faction, so to say. Nevertheless, in your words, if there are two similar abilities already, I think it would be unwise of us to aim for an additional third, wouldn't it?
Apart from all aforesaid considerations, I've never categorically excluded an option just because there was another that worked pretty much in the same way. My whole uniqueness argument revolved around deeper analogies (I will illustrate this in the next passage).

Now, we've come to Vilya and restoration. I will respond with three preponderant explanations, which I consider the most compelling points. I would also like to remind that our final concept arose from many difficulties and previous scrapped iterations; we have never been so fixated on invincibility by default. It was rather the most reasonable destination whereto all roads seemed to head.

1. Aulë has come up with a couple of interesting ideas. However, we have since ruled out passive effects or that sort of influence. The ability, which should fulfil its ultimate nature at the same time, would either be boring or totally underwhelming, not to mention that someone has even proposed to move the Ring of Air to lower levels. In short, we had to find a proper level-10, mighty display that would also comply with what we sought to create (a tool slowing decay and granting universal preservation). We have examined options after options, until we agreed that invincibility would serve our purpose better, making for an enough appealing ability.

2. You're right, he's a sensational healer, worthy of the praise of annals and myths. Only, if I were to accept your statement, then we should probably aim at healing in its purest sense: healing units or heroes, and not replenishing their abilities. That's the most immediate way to portray such 'individual' kind of healing: mending physical wounds. Replenishment appears to be more in tune with what Galadriel is expected do in the game; I mean, the power to renew others' strength or, better, magical capabilities (hence the reference to the reborn Gandalf; she gave him no additional powers, but clothed him in white and appointed the wizard as the Wise's head). Her saint-like apparition in ROTK, from which her new ability feeds, fits much better the very idea of restoring another's vigour (without necessarily curing them completely).
If we are to keep Galadriel's design unique, Elrond could not get his current restoration back, but merely another, redundant, healing skill (out of place, unimaginative, and overcrowding the faction with too much means bearing the same function).

According to his personal eventful story, Elrond could be a wide variety of things: a healer, a commander, a seer/prophet, a sorcerer or an incredibly wise ruler. How many roles would he be supposed to occupy, then? We have to choose a clear direction and proceed forward. From our part, we chose a formidable, 3000-resource mass-slayer, instead of the current multitasking hero (whose price doesn't even do him justice), who will sport unit-supporter and building-supporter traits nonetheless.

3. The following is one of the most meaningful arguments I could think about. The exact essence of our proposal:
From my very first 2015 suggestion regarding Nenya (very precocious, yet ahead of the time as well), to my other grand proposal in respect with Narya, and further onward unto our latest concept gravitating around Vilya, you can notice a single thread uniting all these three discussions: the Three Rings.

Our imperative goal is, in fact, to endow each of the Three with an appropriate characterisation, while correcting what has (unfortunately) been a recurrent issue in the Mod for long time, staying always true to the precise reason why these Rings had been forged in the first place. Therefore, long-time beneficial effects for both the bearer and his whole realm (faction).
The Ring of Air will (hopefully) safeguard the Valley via the most powerful kind of protection (though base-bound), the Ring of Water will cleanse dirt, stains and sorrows away, and it does that globally (mirroring the vast shield defending the Golden Wood and Galadriel purifying the entire forest of Mirkwood after the War of the Ring), whereas the Ring of Fire is to work on an individual basis, relieving Gandalf from the heavy burdens entailed by his perilous mission. Invincibility towers over any other rendition whatsoever, since Vilya is the highest in hierarchy. This is THE goal. Going back to past, surpassed logic of healing/restoring features or mobile tornadoes would unequivocally negate so fundamental an objective, disrupting one major tale of the books.

Finally, what kind of 'analogy' was I hinting at above? The answer is simple: Elrond and Galadriel. Two mighty High Elves who happen to be keepers of two of the Three, two extremely mighty heroes of the game's Elven factions, the two leaders of said factions, and they're also, respectively, son-in-law and mother-in-law to each other. Making a comparison between them is more than legitimate, I guess
In this perspective, replenishing heroic abilities would not be unique, should it refer to both heroes, and likewise would healing (currently, how Nenya's magic affects allied buildings and units).

[Julio229]

I'd like to offer my point of view on the arguments both Walk and Tiberius have used. I'll try to do my best to answer each and every one of them, and so, I will answer to both comments in different parts of this same post 

Firstly, Tiberius' comment:

Firstly, I’m not entirely sure about the effect of full invincibility over all your castles/camps.

As you said - we can say the same about Stronghold of The Iron Crown which at least for me sounds more OP because it is permanent. Vilya is purely temporar.

There are some more interesting ideas that could be done with the concept of a timeless sanctuary (some of which have been suggested by Aule in this thread).

No, there aren't. 
I've suggested the same proposal as Aule - but we ruled it out with Walkure because speed recruitment for instance goes against logic of timeless. Vilya shouldn't accelarate speed, but completely contrary - slower it. It would mean that your oponent should be faster - ingame speaking - and not you. We think that  time aspect just isn't transferable into the game. Also support for structures has Cirdan.

I also have issues with the fact that Elrond’s role as a healer through Restoration has been removed. I know the points that Tiberius has made about Elrond’s current Restoration not having a heal and Walkure’s points about Galadriel being the new big hero supporter.
However, let us not forget that Elrond was the greatest healer present in Middle Earth during the War of the Ring. He personally healed Frodo from the Morgul blade, something which I feel is much more important for the whole story and more iconic than Galadriel letting Gandalf recover in Lorien or appearing to Frodo in a vision in the film.

Yes and no. He was great healer, but personally I see it in different way - Imladris was well known healing sanctuary not only because of Elrond healing skills, but also because of that place ... you could stay there as long as you wanted to regain your strength ... spa of Middle-earth. And this overall aspect is represented through the fountains and spellbook.
And concerning Galadriel - it was she who completely restored and healed Gandalf while Elrond was fighting with many Ringwraiths - even movie makers thought that Galadriel is hero supporter while Elrond like Saruman are mass slayers.
Not to mention her radiant aid across Middle-earth to Frodo. It clearly exceeded Elrond's healing skills.

Elrond was a healer first, warrior second, and it seems a shame to have most of his abilities focus on the later.

He was also the wisest elf in Middle-earth (of course there were Cirdan, Celeborn or Galadriel too, but none of them was so open and well known like Elrond). Gift of Foresight was also his dominant trait. Ok lets throw Edain roles under the train and include everything what we know or like concerning our heroes.

With the argument that Arwen is the hero supporter for Imladris…well she isn’t really. She has a heal and the hero buffs via the spellbook but that’s it. She then has a fear ability, a speed increase and unit support ability.

Well ... she is. ... Hero/unit supporter. But mainly ultimate healer of heroes. There isn't better hero healer than she.

If you are worried about the faction having too much healing, then there are other ways of representing Elrond’s influence (for example the restoration of powers).

Yeah, such half vanillla ability currently has and it's not fitting nor anything extra.

If you’re then worried about not having enough spaces in Elrond’s ability slots, then his mount could be included in Ancient Equipment.

Well, it's not typical. Mount is just a mount and armor usually comes with some buff for units/heroes.

Saying that Elrond shouldn’t have the Restoration because Galadriel has it already would mean that you’d then have to rework Aranarth who can also restore abilities.

Thanks for another reason to remove his restoration - it already isn't unique for Elrond because of Aranarth.
But funny thing is that Galadriel and Arannarth are hero supporters. But why mass slayer Elrond should have the skill which clearly fits only to hero supporter?

The idea of making a base invulnerable isn’t “unique” as Angmar has a very similar ability as I have mentioned previously.

It's pretty unique. Angmar ultimate spell is activated through spellbook and means permanent upgrade of your fortress. Vilya's protection is ultimate ability of the faction hero and is only temporar and doesn't add anything.

I realise that any changes at this stage would probably be a lot of work (changing Elrond’s plans or going over established heroes like Arwen or Galadriel)

Exactly. I can't imagine better mass slayer in Imladris, especially after Dol Guldur skirmish, than Elrond.
By the way, we think that Galadriel and Arwen are fine and have solid roles.

Firstly, about the Angmar power, the invulnerability included on it isn't permanent. It's an option with a cooldown that lasts for a limited time, and has an effect on buildings only. It's also (as said before) an option of a Tier 4 power, which makes it more reasonable in my opinion. On the other hand, this would be a level 10 ability for a hero (far easier to reach) that would have an effect on not only buildings, but units and heroes if I understand it correctly. This disparity, however good thematically the idea may be, strikes me as an unbalance between the two, since the Angmar option is harder to get and weaker, while the Imladris one is easier to get and much more stronger. Invulnerability for not only buildings, but heroes and units is an effect I'd think is too much, so to speak, to be included and be balanced at the same time.

Secondly, about there not being a possibility for a better concept: there can always be one. Invulnerability as a whole is, while fitting, a very basic concept. Moreover, this iteration of it seems to be too strong for it to fit into regular gameplay. More ideas can always be crafted to find a maybe more fitting, more unique and more balanced option.

About Elrond's roles, I'd say that throughout the whole Tolkien stories and even the movies, Elrond doesn't get much of a foundation to be a Mass Slayer. Rather, emphasis on Elrond is as a healing expert, wise elf, that served as Gil-Galad's herald. Not even the Dol Guldur scenes showed much in the way of him being a Mass Slayer, and that's his most combat-heavy segment on the cinematic trilogies. There's simply not much to just focus on him as a Mass Slayer (not that I don't like that aspect on him in Edain), and just forgo what are his most important aspects. Moreover, I don't get the relevancy of his Mass Slayer role in the argument if the ability that he's going to get is not related to that role, after all. Imladris does have a lot of importance as a healing place, but Elrond is a big part of it.

About the argument of "throwing Edain roles under the train", I don't really find it appropriate for the discussion at hand when the ability that is suggested is not befitting of that role either. Not all of the Edain heroes follow a strict role, many of them are quite versatile and I don't see why Elrond of all people should be restricted.

About Arwen, after her spellbook power got changed in 4.5 all she gets in the way of Hero Support is healing, twice. Not only is her healing level 2 (or something like that) skill not that good (I at least don't remember it being as useful as Athelas), but now she has two "parts" of her geared for healing. I for one don't find it really unique, it is certainly less unique than an Arnor and an Imladris hero having a similar ability, but Arwen is not the main point of this discussion after all.

About Restoration being not unique and a vanilla ability, I'd say it was one of the more unique vanilla abilities after all, and still manages to keep its uniqueness and reflect greatly on Elrond's main aspects. Many of the vanilla abilities have held up well to this day, and are included on many heroes. This one reflects Elrond's character specially well, so I don't see why he should lose such an iconic ability from the vanilla days that actually reflects him well.

About the mount and Ancient Equipment, they could be rolled out into the same power. The effects are different, but an ability can have both passive and active effects at the same time. It could give the bonuses it has as a passive effect, and be activated to mount a horse, actually freeing up a skill slot.

About Aranarth having Restoration and so it being a reason to remove Elrond's: Arnor and Imladris are two different factions, I don't think there are issues between them sharing a power when they actually share two other whole heroes. I find a bigger issue with the Arwen point stated before, where she has a healing power and her spellbook power unlocks more healing too. That is even less unique in my opinion.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tiberius has already answered Oak's points, but I would like to offer my insight on things, too, in hopes that my comment could clear present or future doubts.
The following reply is therefore just to Oak's in-depth review of the concept.


Thank you for the detailed and thorough response, Oak. You gave me the precious opportunity to clarify a few things about the whole debate backing our choice, its peculiar traits and why we have come to such conclusion. I will even seize the chance to address other points that may have been perceived as a bit obscure or unclear in the main.

If you wish to withdraw, either momentarily or indefinitely, your positive vote, just let me know

Well, where to begin? I'll try to reply to every one of your remarks, in the briefest, most comprehensible way possible.

First of all, I can assure you that the team has spent unspeakable energy to make comebacks less of a dream for players; this is going to have a huge impact on the economy and command points. Secondarily, I'm of the sincere opinion that an invincible castle/camp would play out well. Imladris is a strong late-game faction, but it also cherishes quality above everything else. Even if Elven troops may be recruited already-upgraded via the spellbook, building up your army requires considerable efforts. Waiting inside the safety and bliss of your base for a while can be decisive, allowing you to weigh the moment carefully and judge whether it's worth sallying out or not.
Lore-wise, a defensive, fortress-centred feature suits the own history of Rivendell. More than other renditions would do, especially if another solution might lean towards offensive tactics.

Arwen is the supportive hero par excellence. A unit-supporter and hero-supporter character by definition. This is manifestly represented through both her abilities and the bonus conferred by her eponymous spell. If it weren't so, I have no idea which role could be appointed to her. And, if her holistic performance seems quite 'moderate', it's simply because of the fact that she's not a major hero of the faction. She was never meant to be a force to be reckoned with anyway.

Angmar and Arnor have (would have) similar features? Yes, they do, but I don't let that type of argument alter my view. The former is an evil faction and the own power will shroud the base in a nasty snowstorm, wherefore relating to a substantially different conceptualisation and connotation (fell winds and storm). As for the latter, I've never really paid attention to the glorious Northern Kingdom so far; not out of disinterest, but the faction is objectively a sui generis case. That is, a special typology of faction, which is not even available on every map. Not an ordinary faction, so to say. Nevertheless, in your words, if there are two similar abilities already, I think it would be unwise of us to aim for an additional third, wouldn't it?
Apart from all aforesaid considerations, I've never categorically excluded an option just because there was another that worked pretty much in the same way. My whole uniqueness argument revolved around deeper analogies (I will illustrate this in the next passage).

Now, we've come to Vilya and restoration. I will respond with three preponderant explanations, which I consider the most compelling points. I would also like to remind that our final concept arose from many difficulties and previous scrapped iterations; we have never been so fixated on invincibility by default. It was rather the most reasonable destination whereto all roads seemed to head.

1. Aulë has come up with a couple of interesting ideas. However, we have since ruled out passive effects or that sort of influence. The ability, which should fulfil its ultimate nature at the same time, would either be boring or totally underwhelming, not to mention that someone has even proposed to move the Ring of Air to lower levels. In short, we had to find a proper level-10, mighty display that would also comply with what we sought to create (a tool slowing decay and granting universal preservation). We have examined options after options, until we agreed that invincibility would serve our purpose better, making for an enough appealing ability.

2. You're right, he's a sensational healer, worthy of the praise of annals and myths. Only, if I were to accept your statement, then we should probably aim at healing in its purest sense: healing units or heroes, and not replenishing their abilities. That's the most immediate way to portray such 'individual' kind of healing: mending physical wounds. Replenishment appears to be more in tune with what Galadriel is expected do in the game; I mean, the power to renew others' strength or, better, magical capabilities (hence the reference to the reborn Gandalf; she gave him no additional powers, but clothed him in white and appointed the wizard as the Wise's head). Her saint-like apparition in ROTK, from which her new ability feeds, fits much better the very idea of restoring another's vigour (without necessarily curing them completely).
If we are to keep Galadriel's design unique, Elrond could not get his current restoration back, but merely another, redundant, healing skill (out of place, unimaginative, and overcrowding the faction with too much means bearing the same function).

According to his personal eventful story, Elrond could be a wide variety of things: a healer, a commander, a seer/prophet, a sorcerer or an incredibly wise ruler. How many roles would he be supposed to occupy, then? We have to choose a clear direction and proceed forward. From our part, we chose a formidable, 3000-resource mass-slayer, instead of the current multitasking hero (whose price doesn't even do him justice), who will sport unit-supporter and building-supporter traits nonetheless.

3. The following is one of the most meaningful arguments I could think about. The exact essence of our proposal:
From my very first 2015 suggestion regarding Nenya (very precocious, yet ahead of the time as well), to my other grand proposal in respect with Narya, and further onward unto our latest concept gravitating around Vilya, you can notice a single thread uniting all these three discussions: the Three Rings.

Our imperative goal is, in fact, to endow each of the Three with an appropriate characterisation, while correcting what has (unfortunately) been a recurrent issue in the Mod for long time, staying always true to the precise reason why these Rings had been forged in the first place. Therefore, long-time beneficial effects for both the bearer and his whole realm (faction).
The Ring of Air will (hopefully) safeguard the Valley via the most powerful kind of protection (though base-bound), the Ring of Water will cleanse dirt, stains and sorrows away, and it does that globally (mirroring the vast shield defending the Golden Wood and Galadriel purifying the entire forest of Mirkwood after the War of the Ring), whereas the Ring of Fire is to work on an individual basis, relieving Gandalf from the heavy burdens entailed by his perilous mission. Invincibility towers over any other rendition whatsoever, since Vilya is the highest in hierarchy. This is THE goal. Going back to past, surpassed logic of healing/restoring features or mobile tornadoes would unequivocally negate so fundamental an objective, disrupting one major tale of the books.

Finally, what kind of 'analogy' was I hinting at above? The answer is simple: Elrond and Galadriel. Two mighty High Elves who happen to be keepers of two of the Three, two extremely mighty heroes of the game's Elven factions, the two leaders of said factions, and they're also, respectively, son-in-law and mother-in-law to each other. Making a comparison between them is more than legitimate, I guess
In this perspective, replenishing heroic abilities would not be unique, should it refer to both heroes, and likewise would healing (currently, how Nenya's magic affects allied buildings and units).

First, about comebacks and the use the invincibility would have: The team have made great efforts in making comebacks a possibility, yeah, and I'm fine with Angmar's own power of getting an invincible fortress since it comes late, but the effect of Elrond's power would have an effect on units and heroes too, and I don't think it is possible to strip the units out of their invulnerability once they are blessed with it, if they go outside of the fortress. Thus, it could lead to situations like Imladris Cavalry destroying the enemy army without it having a single chance to react. While it would be a comeback, I don't think it would be fair. That is only one of many situations that could arise and provide for gameplay that wouldn't exactly be fun for both parties or balanced. I don't deny that the concept is fitting, but I believe it is too much, taking that it would be a hero's level 10 power into account.

About Arwen, I can agree on it being well represented on the unit support front. I specially like Blessed Banner, for example. However, with the spellbook power changing, Arwen's hero support capabilities have simply been reduced to healing. Unless something else was added to the spellbook power after the news and I don't remember  I believe two healing powers, while it could be a strong combination (as I stated before, I don't find her healing ability unlocked at like level 2 to be that good) is enough to make her stand out as a hero supporter, if the role she has is to be strong on both the hero and unit supporting fields.

About Angmar, the argument intended for it wasn't really to argue against the Imladris power's uniqueness, rather about the strength it would have, for how easy it is to get. In that regard, the Imladris power far surpassed the Angmar power while being easier to get.

About it being the best fitting ability for the concept, I believe my answer to Tiberius fits this one aswell. The current iteration of it is too strong when compared to a harder to get similar ability, invulnerability is not that unique in my opinion, and while the concept does fit the idea of Vilya, I'm sure a fitting concept can always be crafted that could be more unique and more balanced than the current one.

About Elrond's healing, I'd say the restoration of abilities could also fit the nature of Imladris and Elrond's healing abilities, as it is known as a resting place. Not only entailing healing, but also renewing of strength as Galadriel fits too, in my opinion. And as I stated with Aranarth's power before, I don't think uniqueness is really an issue for the power to be in three different factions, specially because in my opinion Restoration is kind of special in this regard: while other powers that were shared in the past like Arrow Volley or the infamous Eagles were in so many factions, they were always used for exactly the same thing and didn't have much variation (with just small variations in how arrows fell in the case of Arrow Volley). Moreover, these were spellbook powers and thus more "prominent" in the sense of reflecting the whole faction, thus, making it as a whole lose uniqueness for it. However, on the case of specifically Restoration, while it would be present on three different factions, the fact that each of these have completely different sets of hero powers makes Restoration itself work completely different from each other iteration of it in the game, Aranarth's restoration opens paths that Elrond's can't, while Elrond can use it in ways that Aranarth wouldn't be able to. The very nature of the power lends itself to still be unique even though it is on more than one faction.

About the Three Rings argument, I believe I can fall back to my previous argument about the concept's fittingness. There is no doubt it does fit the ideas behind it and reflect Vilya's nature, but I believe a better effect for it could be found for the sake of balance and uniqueness, since while the concept is fitting, in my opinion it doesn't quite fulfill the other two.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, that was a lot 

Overall, I believe the best way to go about making Elrond a better reflection of his lore self while keeping him reasonably balanced would be to merge his Ancient Equipment and Mount skills, to free up a slot, keep Restoration, and then craft a new effect for Vilya that manages to be fitting, unique and balanced.

[Tiberius Ogden]

Ok guys,

so we're eagerly waiting on your proposals and want to hear from you how to solve these issues:

1) Explain why mass slayer should have clear hero support ability in his skillset, which currently has Aranarath and will have Galadriel, who are hero supporters. And which current mass slayer skill want to replace?
2) If Elrond shouldn't be mass slayer, but hero supporter, then who will be the new mass slayer in Imladris and which abilities will have?
3) Which effects Vilya will have in order to be the mightiest of the three elven rings, when Nenya is represented this way:

- Rank 10: Nenya's Cleansing. All allied units and buildings on the map are continously healed for a long duration. Units in the vicinity of heroes with Gifts of Lorien additionally become fearless and can't be knocked to the ground. Buildings in the vicinity of heroes with Gifts are immune to fire.

?

[Bogdan Hmel]

Julio229, Fully agree with your arguments!
Tiberius, Remove one skill of a mass slayer is not necessary, if you combine a mount and Ancient Equipment. In this case, one slot is released for Vilya.

[Tiberius Ogden]

Yeah, I can read, just want to see the exact skill with description how it will work in his skillset.

[Walküre]

Tiberius makes some compelling points, indeed. I would love to blend all our different suggestions together, and then come up with a compromise, but that would not work and I'll show you why:

- Elrond would access his steed and leadership at level 3, therefore earlier. It's the only proper level available.
- He would then use Restoration at level 5 and Wuthering Gale at level 7, or vice versa.
- And, on top of all, we still need to find an accurate effect for Vilya which should fit its ultimate nature, be in the limits of common sense and balance, and surpass the current magic of Nenya, that is already a very imposing of a display.

Don't you think we would give birth to an overpowered, fourfold-role monstrosity?
A 5000-resource super-Elf...

[Bogdan Hmel]

I have already made my suggestions, although they really seriously strengthen Elrond. But, if you remove them and leave one, then I find this idea interesting (I think everyone considers their suggestions interesting  ):
Ring Vilya. Lord of Imladris uses the strongest of the ring to heal wounds and protect allies. With gaining levels, this ability is enhanced. Level 1: Allies near Elrond slowly restore health when not fighting. Level 4: Allies get protection from poison and elemental damage. Level 6: Allies get protection from magic, buildings near Elrond — +50% armor. Level 9: The allies near Elrond get immune to fear, and enemies lose 10-15% of their movement speed. (This shows how Vilya slows down the passage of time).
The advantage of Vilya over the other two rings will be that it works from level 1 and over time protects your troops more and more. And the skill is passive, which makes it unique compared to other rings.
P.s. But in this case, we have to remove the Arwen banner, as it also provides healing.
P.s.s. I always loved her ability to summon the Strider

EDIT:

Yeah, I can read, just want to see the exact skill with description how it will work in his skillset.

I think people can just express their opinion on the proposed idea, and not necessarily offer an alternative

[Walküre]

It's definitely a unique proposal, but it defies the logic and underlying reasoning behind the Three Rings. That is, as presented to the community, Narya is already supposed to work passively. That's the easiest and most lore-accurate portrayal possible: a Ring operating 'behind the scenes' and in secret, granting its bearer endurance and resistance to fatigue, despair and grief. The Ring of Fire is thereby the best candidate for a feature meant to influence the relative hero from the very start.

The Ring of Air is instead destined to occupy an ultimate spot, and the consequent power should befit its supreme status in the hierarchy. These are the conceptual foundations we wish to stick to