A strategic and conceptual overhaul for Lothlórien/Mirkwood

• A strategic and conceptual overhaul for Lothlórien/Mirkwood von Walküre am 15 Feb, 2017 02:31
• Ok, here we come to the proper own thread which is to deal with all the suggestions that have been recently made, in form of brief contributions. Starting initially from a simple question (whether Palace Guards could have been made a heroic unit), we then developed a much more structured proposal that envisages significant changes for the whole strategic/conceptual architecture of Lothlórien/Mirkwood. What really impressed me is the connection of these ideas with other newly-proposed concepts, so that the final outcome may be regarded as a more coherent order among different elements. Obviously, the presence of such concepts as actual arguments makes the general reasoning more hypothetical, given that not all of those proposals have been officially accepted by the Edain Team. We ought therefore to bear in mind that we're moving in quite what-if situations. I'm nonetheless sure that it will be ultimately fruitful to discuss this topic. Every valuable concept deserves its own chance, after all.
  
  During the debating phase, a different idea emerged in regards of certain aspects of the proposal and some people found themselves in favour of that precise eventuality, instead of the major core that was gradually acquiring more consistency. Due to this different course of events, I will include the alternative suggestion; as for the general explanation, the main points of the discussion will be presented all at once, as they're basically the same between the two sides. I will try to be the briefest possible, within my own possibilities. Since we already put forward insightful illustrations of our thoughts, relying on quotations will surely serve me well 
  
  

  THE FACTS

  
  PALACE GUARDS: The general consensus perceives them as a too overpowered unit in proportion with their cost, their abilities and their overall role as a heavy defence. We then agreed that they should be made a heroic unit, limited and, possibly, endowed with a higher status. The latter aspect is something not all of us leaned towards, preferring a simple overhaul which only binds the unit's possibilities of action. Focusing on them and coming up with some adjustments could stress their elitist characterisation as royal guards; a quite different of a perspective from the regular troops of Thranduil's host whom we see in BOTFA.
  
  BEORNINGS: As a following suggestion, taking into account the faction's anti-cavalry properties, we also proposed the removal of Lórien pikemen. In place of them, the role to constitute an enough valuable defence in the early stage of the game would be given to the Woodsmen of the surrounding woods of Mirkwood, whose concept was proposed by Fredius not very long time ago; at the same time, Beornings shall thus receive a mightier role and more significance, as such supernatural creatures of this kind are indeed supposed to. Logically, as it can be easily inferred from these premises, the whole Beorning Homestead would acquire a far expanded importance in the game's dynamics, perhaps via convincing the player even more of the great usage this settlement is hopefully to offer.
  
  REGULAR LANCERS OF MIRKWOOD: This is maybe the most controversial element of the proposal. Some of us don't agree in fact with the implementation of these troops in the game, lest, according to this theory, the faction be granted a redundant lancer-type unit and too many advantages in countering cavalry; with the risk of bringing us to the starting point of the whole issue (replacing Lórien pikemen with Woodsmen would thus be a mere exchange, giving the current pikemen a new fashion without neutralising the anti-cavalry issue). I'm very conscious of these arguments, and I find them equally valid. That's why, in my own opinion, this passage of the proposal is intrinsically tied to the fate of Palace Guards: were they to become a truly limited heroic unit and to be freed from a strict lancer-type logic, the regular lancers might take their place as common anti-cavalry units in the faction. With versatile and elitist Palace Guards at disposal (like a traditional royal guard), the regular lancers will be part of the army of Mirkwood, lesser in nature than the current solution and normally recruited as common troops (the common army of Mirkwood of the films). In light of this, the Woodsmen would operate as 'auxiliary pikemen' (even lesser than regular lancers themselves), when the player can't afford yet to get access to the outpost.
  
  

  https://youtube.com/watch?v=2m04j8rRkHw

  
  Without prolonging things too much, these are the two alternatives which arose so far from our general insights. Feel free to give your sincere feedback on the matter (you may even propose other scenarios). I will arrange the whole for/against mechanism in a secondary moment.
  
  

  Zitat

  Just to add to the flow of the discussion: even if Palace Guards are to hypothetically acquire the status of a heroic unit, the implementation of the regular lancers from BOTFA would probably give the faction too many means to counter cavalry, and that's something we ought to avoid.
  
  Therefore, another alternative I personally envisaged could be the very removal of Lórien pikemen, the inclusion of Mirkwood lancers as the regular anti-cavalry unit of the faction and the considerable broadening of Palace Guards' role as iconic royal guards. Referring to the latter case, the new royal guard could consist of 5/10 units per battalion (with the maximum of three battalions permitted) and shall be given the possibility to toggle weapons; not only would they thus be made more relevant in the game (more unique), but their overall activity would have much wider spaces of action at hand. About the removal of Lórien pikemen, this is certainly a quite radical of a proposal, but there are some positive arguments which we may bring at the common attention.
  
  First of all, I have no knowledge whether the lore gives clear information about this, I have personally never viewed those pikemen as something so much proper for Lothlórien (the specific faction); I feel their addition was more an obligated choice for balance-related reasons. In my own opinion, the legitimate core of Lothlórien's infantry/archery are the regular border guards from BFME2 and the versatile Galadhrim; that's the main conceptual focus. Following the above-mentioned suggestions, Mirkwood only will then have the hegemony of anti-cavalry countering, ending up being much more differentiated and with a broader role as a subfaction. Obviously, Lórien would consequently be subjected to many threats by riders in the early stage, yet that might be seen as a possible strategic risk in equal terms.
  
  As an additional defence at the beginning of the game, we could consider the early-defence role that Woodsmen are endowed with according to Fredius' proposal. However, I'm perfectly conscious that all these ideas I hitherto addressed rely on very what-if premises and, most importantly, on a concept about which the Edain Team has not expressed itself yet. But I nonetheless wanted to create a common ground for a possible significant overhaul, and I hope we shall head thither.
  
  

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  Thank you all for the precious contributions. The simply replacement of Lórien pikemen and the transferring of the Mirkwood lancers to the main fortress are obviously not the goal of the proposal, as that would take us again to the starting point of the issue. Yes, the proposal should instead be considered in conjunction with Fredius' concept and with some other aspects we do have knowledge of 
  
  As others have already pointed out fairly, with the departure of Lórien pikemen (whom I personally find not so much conceptually fitting), Woodsmen and Beornings are to constitute the early defence at the beginning of the game; I don't think it's imperative that Woodsmen be necessarily pikemen, but I'm leaning more and more towards this perspective. They would obviously represent a lesser chance to counter immediate threats from cavalry. Also, what Fredius proposed entails the fact that Beornings will acquire a more prominent status, in line with their supernatural nature and thus granting players an additional possibility to defend themselves. Moreover, we ought to remember that Grimbeorn shall maybe receive the Axe of Doriath from Galadriel, strengthening his attack and the surrounding Skin-changers. Therefore, the whole Beorning Homestead is to be given a much more central role.
  
  As additional remarks, we shouldn't also forget the support provided by minstrels, which defends from trampling too, and the sentinels of the camp/castle. Nor should we leave aside the prospect of Galadriel being capable of using the abilities of Ancient Might, which involve primarily monsters and heroes. On a final note, some of the arguments are based on pure assumptions, but these seem in my eyes to be favourable scopes for an equal redistribution of power in the overall faction, without disrupting Lothlórien's hegemonic status. The three main components of the faction will benefit from a higher degree of proper differentiation: Lothlórien (archery and versatile infantry), Mirkwood (heavier infantry and pikemen) and the People of the woods (early defence and Beornings). Like I already stated, only three battalions of Palace Guards shall be available (to avoid superfluous anti-cavalry proliferation) and have their role loosened, in the sense that they won't solely focus on cavalry anymore.

  
  

  Zitat

  I will share my secondary thoughts on Fredius's Woodmen proposal here:
  
  

  Zitat von: Garlodur am 11 Feb, 2017 11:13

  
  With the suggestion of turning Mirkwood Palace Guards into heroic units, I started thinking about the possible implications on the Lothlórien faction. I realised that without affecting the core of the faction too much, leaving it very much as it's current concept, the amount of units the faction can dispose of does not have to change. Let me explain.
  
  Step 1) The Lórien Pikemen are removed. They are not useful due to their low armour values: this makes them vulnerable against constant cavalry assaults, or to any other type of unit in direct combat. They only have speed in their favour, but in the mid-game this is replaced with the superiority of Mirkwood units, especially the Palace Guard in dealing with cavalry extremely well and infantry reasonably well. The removal makes space for a new anti-cavalry unit, namely your Woodmen of the Anduin Vales
  Step 2) The Woodmen of the Anduin Vales are introduced in the Beorninger Hut. They form the early and mid-game option against cavalry charges, which have become even more of a weakness for Lórien. They will carry spears and will get an ability that emphasises their role in defending their own home grounds as well as now protecting Lórien's borders.
  Step 3) The Mirkwood Palace Guard is turned into a heroic unit battalion. In the Mirkwood subfaction there is no need for another anti-cavalry unit (such as would be introduced as Mirkwood Spearmen). As of now there exist also the Elkriders who have an ability that makes them very  efficient against cavalry charges. It will make the Mirkwood more necessary in Lórien's gameplay but I believe this is for good strategical balance and challenge, because it makes its general weakness against cavalry harder to neutralise. I will elaborate more on the Palace Guard's abilities in their own topic (of Suggestions).
  

  
  In this suggestion we only need to find a way of making the Palace Guard interesting as a heroic unit, especially through abilities. A simple weapon toggle should be a level 1 ability, but we should debate the presence of their current ability.
  
  

  Zitat

  Defenders of Mirkwood - The Palace Guards are the elite defenders of Mirkwood and can turn enemy momentum against them. Any time a Palace Guard is trampled, all other nearby Palace Guards gain +50% armor, damage, and slow any additional enemy trampling 50% faster for 30 seconds.
  

  
  I suggest this ability be unlocked at level 3 for instance, and the effects to be scaled over multiple levels (3,5,7) in order to make it more balanced.
  
  In my opinion a third ability is need so necessary, many heroic units only dispose of two abilities, and with good reason Lórien has many strong late game units already (Ents, Beornings, Minstrels, Caras Galadhon Guardians).
  
  I am very much willing to further this debate, it looks promising.
• #1 von lordoflinks am 15 Feb, 2017 07:31
• I am with you DieWalküre, +1.
• #2 von Hamanathnath am 15 Feb, 2017 14:12
• Before I go on to the real point of this post, I would like to say that I still support adding the Woodsmen of Anduin, and making the Beornings Elite units.  As for the role of the Woodsmen, I personally don't mind either, but maybe Sword would be more preferable, as Lorien already has a lot of counters to cavalry.
  
  With that out of the way, lets get to the point.  I don't exactly agree that Lorien should be weak to cavalry just because they are Lorien, which it really seems like everyone thinks.  Yes, if the Lorien player goes for nothing but archers, they should be weak to cavalry, but I believe that applies for every faction.  So I am pretty strictly against removing the Lorien Pikemen, as that without them, you would be forced to go to a outer build plot just to get a Pike unit, which in my opinion, would really hurt Lorien in a way I don't think any of us intend with these changes.
  
  As for the Palace Guards, I will not deny that they are the best unit in the game at killing Cavalry, but are people right now making anymore then 3-4 Palace Guards at one time?  I personally never see it, nor do it myself.  Why?  I will get to that next paragraph. But I am against making the Palace Guard a Heroic Unit, as in my opinion, they are not as overpowered as people make them out to be.  Swords and Archers take them out pretty easily, and I have yet to see a player "spam" them with any really effectiveness. 
  
  Now this, in my opinion, is the real problem with Lorien against cavalry right now.  There is no need to really ever get anymore then 3 Pike units because of the Singers.  When you get all 3, which doesn't take much more then 8 minutes if even that, you can get Trample Immunity for an extended period of time.  If you just save the Song for when cavalry start to charge your archers, they completely nullifies any cavalry force your opponent can have, which on top of all the stuns Lorien has, makes cavalry not very useful against Lorien, unless your are just using them to harass resource buildings.  And while the song doesn't last forever, the 3 pikes your have are generally more then enough to defend your archers for the 1 minute or so that the song isn't up.
  
  So, my proposal would be to remove the Trample Immunity that the Lorien Singers give you.  This would actually make Lorien use their Pikes to defend their archers more often, nor would it make Singers useless (50% damage and armor + Fear Resistance is still pretty good )  I personally think that only making Palace Guards heroic units doesn't fix the problem at hand. 
  
  Feedback is welcome. 
• #3 von Melkor Bauglir am 15 Feb, 2017 15:17
• @Hamanathnath: +1 on behalf of the singers.
  It is BTW probably +57% damage because of how modifiers stack. Not much of a deal, but since in the German forum people actually spoke about a 10% modifier being to crazy, I'd like to add this.
  
  Though, I still think that Lorien is conceptually broken, considering the amounts of stuns and firepower they have on range and the fact that Edain's gameplay refinements practically focus on making battles more important while eliminating any possibility to win the war before the battle has started.
  
  
  Greetings
  Melkor Bauglir
• #4 von Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 15 Feb, 2017 17:22
• Removing pikes from the lorien base is a bad idea. It forces you to always always always get the Beorning Hut right at the start of the game, because you'd otherwise lose immediately when the enemy goes for a cavalry start. Not only does this make Lorien's start extremely boring and always the same, it also means you have less money to get something else, which just gives you a disadvantage right from the start. This just won't work. I also don't like the entire Woodsmen suggestion because I don't see a place for them in Lorien's unit roster and think that Beornings work decently already.
  
  Other than that, I agree with pretty much everything Haman said. Lorien has a heavy focus on overwhelming ranged firepower. The obvious counter to archers is cavalry, and because of their low hp, Lorien's units can get punished harshly by trampling cavalry, hence the "weakness". Removing the trample immunity is a good point.
  
  
  
  

  Zitat von: Melkor Bauglir am 15 Feb, 2017 15:17

  Though, I still think that Lorien is conceptually broken, considering the amounts of stuns and firepower they have on range and the fact that Edain's gameplay refinements practically focus on making battles more important while eliminating any possibility to win the war before the battle has started.
  

  Care to elaborate on that, especially the last part? Write me a pm if you like
• #5 von Odysseus am 15 Feb, 2017 17:32
• I agree with Bauglir here. Initially, I thought the idea was to give them a a weakness to exploit for the other factions. And since Lothlorien's speciality is archery in warfare, I thought their natural counter would be the best way to exploit the faction and force Lorien players to adapt. However, since the faction's base pikes are pretty strong combined with singers (which I find an awesome concept) I always found those additional cavalry counters completely unecessary (the Palace Guard and the incredibly annoying Elk Riders). That is why I think the appropriate amount of slow and stuns are what gives Lorien moments to skilfully beat opponents that can outmaneuver them and I don't think that is the primary issue.
  
  Obviously, it has proven to be too much. At this point, I don't know what is planned for Lothlorien, but Palace Guard, Singers and the amount of slow and stuns (which initially have little counterplay) all quickly add up leading to Lothlorien being strong against even Imladris with their archers. All I know is, removing base pikes from any faction is a pretty bad idea. Beorning should be cavalry only in my opinion.
• #6 von Mogat am 15 Feb, 2017 17:52
• +1 what Elendil said.
  Moreover I don't see the necessity in this concept at all (including the woodmen).
  Yes Lothlorien is way to strong atm but this is going to be fixed in other ways and is much more complicated then just "palaceguards are too strong" (which they are, but this is just a small part of a bigger problem )
• #7 von Hamanathnath am 15 Feb, 2017 18:56
• I do agree that the numbers on the Palace Guards ability are a bit too high, but I would encourage that if the Singers are to lose their Trample Immunity from their buff, that we keep the Palace Guard's ability the same for now.  This is because while it might be too strong, removing the Trample Immunity will already have a massive effect on Lorien's mid and late game in general, and I would rather not see Lorien get overnerfed in terms of dealing with cavalry.   
  
  Mogat is right about Lorien.  They have multiple problems that lead them to being too strong, with Haldir's Shining Arrow, Legolas's Knives, and Star of Earendil being the biggest problems, at least in my opinion.
  
  As for the Woodsmen, I mainly like them as an addition to Lorien because they would allow the Beornings to be Elite units.  Right now, the Beornings are really not that good, or at least not worth the price to get them, as I rarely see anyone ever get them anymore.  I would really like to see them be useable, but not as overpowered as in previous patches.
• #8 von Odysseus am 15 Feb, 2017 20:23
• Agreed. Gradual nerfs are the best approach for sure. In my opinion, I'm not too fond of the hybrid Beorning role. I think they should be tanky disruptors only, and serve as the only ''cavalry'' option for Lothlorien. Especially with the recent Ent moot change in the internal beta. That way we can improve them in the aspect that they are supposed to be good in (lore-wise anyway), while taking away from their versatility, which was/is problematic anyway.
• #9 von Walküre am 15 Feb, 2017 22:01
• Zitat von: Mogat am 15 Feb, 2017 17:52

  Yes Lothlorien is way to strong atm but this is going to be fixed in other ways and is much more complicated then just "palaceguards are too strong" (which they are, but this is just a small part of a bigger problem).
  

  
  The issues regarding Palace Guards constituted the origin of the whole debate. Then, as it's plainly exposed in the presentation post, discussion evolved and ended up entangling other factors: namely, the connection with other proposals, a possible redistribution of roles in a wide perspective and the removal of a current concept. I'm well conscious of the broader entity of the topic; that's why I and the other attendees endeavoured a bit to find alternatives or to address related aspects. 'Palace Guards are too strong' is a too simplistic of an approach to consider the development of the debate (along with the reasons behind it), whatever one's opinions may be.
  
  It's exactly the reference to other concepts (of which we don't know the fate yet) that makes the very discussion much diverse; this fact consequently convinced me not to deal with the thread as if it were a complete concept, waiting for people's final review. I guess we had better let the stream of thoughts flow and see where it leads us.
  
  In this speculative perspective and beside the valuable points that have been hitherto brought to the general attention, I would like to explain a few things in a more detailed way. In particular, I feel like pointing out the supposed value of relying on external forces to get anti-cavalry defence in the early game: wouldn't the presence of Woodsmen satisfy Lothlórien's needs in a more unique way, while at the same time offering other possible strategies to follow? Spending resources on them would certainly secure protection from that kind of threats, but not all the fortress'/camp's warfare potential could then be thrown into the battlefield; conversely, making usage of all your regular (initial) forces would also expose one to those said perils (cavalry). The reasoning entrenches itself also with the fact that the very Beorning Homestead would acquire much more importance (and a clearer purpose). As a very conceptual note, I reiterate my opinion on the pikemen: I have never really viewed them as an own element of the base, but rather as an obligated (legitimate, of course) option, fashioned on the traditional border guards from BFME2. Instead of the idea of having border guards with pikes wander around the woods of Lórien, I definitely prefer more lore-accurate Woodsmen coming from outer and wilder woods; in a sense, only swords and bows would therefore tread the ways of Lothlórien (the base), and I find this a quite interesting conceptual property to think about.
  
  So, can Lothlórien (the core of the faction, identified as the base) sustain its efforts and survive the initial phase of the game without pikemen or the hypothetical Woodsmen? Aren't minstrels and the faction's other features sufficient, if one opted not to recruit those anti-cavalry units at the beginning? Minstrels (even without the anti-trampling ability), in particular, could give consistency to other types of strategy, which don't necessarily involve the Beorning Homestead. By the way, as Haman wrote, Beornings would become a truly elite unit, and we shouldn't forget that, hopefully, the Axe of Doriath will strengthen Grimbeorn and grant him a leadership over them; henceforth, an elitist characterisation would limit their activity (and number) too, to compensate for the greater role they are likely to receive in the future. Furthermore, as I hinted in the main post, and with the utmost respect for Fredius' proposal, it's quite necessary that Woodsmen be reasonably weak or lesser in power than Lórien pikemen, given their role as an early-game defence; it's not even necessary for them to be pikemen at all costs.
  
  Here we get to grips, now, with Palace Guards. What I suggested resolves in my opinion a conceptual flaw as well. A kind of contradiction. They are supposed to be the royal guard of the very Thranduil, yet they can currently be recruited at will as one would do with regular troops of an army; in addition, the films don't provide us with scenes of them being busy with different duties, other than protecting their king and patrolling the realm's fortified borders. Were they to be made a heroic unit, to be limited within strict boundaries and to be characterised by versatility, I believe they would serve in a much better way as unique royal guards. In doing so, the legitimate role of regular anti-cavalry units would be appointed to the normal lancers. The real army-type troops: enough strong to fulfil their purpose much better than Woodsmen, but not at the extent of Palace Guards, who must also live up to a high status. Normal/Regular lancers are customary in any respectable host (or military structure). However, should the implementation of those mentioned lancers raise issues about redundancy of heavy units, we could always consider the extreme solution: the complete removal of Palace Guards as permanent troops. If you think about it, they're already implemented via Thranduil's Palantír, in the most elitist of the ways (a real royal guard). Such solution would be absolutely radical though, and a loss of that sort might seriously wound the whole faction greatly.
  
  Regardless of our diverging opinions, many thanks for choosing to participate in the discussion. I hope we will conceive many more ideas. Debating always benefits concepts, after all.
• #10 von Odysseus am 15 Feb, 2017 23:08
• Good points Walk. I agree mostly with them, so best thing we can do is wait for an official answer.
  
  I haven't really heard what Lord of Mordor thinks about Lothlorien's current status and if he thinks the faction requires necessary changes, but I would really like to see him join the debate and add his view.
• #11 von Walküre am 16 Feb, 2017 01:42
• I'm glad you agree, Odysseus. And I share your same thoughts. It's always desirable to get someone of the Edain Team to provide the discussion with precious insights. Particularly, this would be very apt at the moment, when five major concepts have been receiving constant support and thus flourishing in the forum for quite some time, getting ever consolidated. Three of them have exactly to do with Lothlórien and would indeed overhaul pivotal aspects of the faction.
  
  Due to the value of those proposals, I hope we shall soon know something more official about it. To know, in the words of Saruman, 'where (how) our doom will be decided' 
  
  

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  5 MAJOR CONCEPTS: Axe of Doriath, Guards of Orthanc, Narya, Ancient Might of Galadriel and Fredius' Woodsmen.
• #12 von Tiberius Ogden am 21 Jan, 2019 10:36
• +1 to Elendil's comment ...
  +1 to Mogat's argument ...
  So in total +2
  This thread is nice example of debate which somewhere started, tried to solve things which don't have to be solved (removing Lorien's pikemen for instance), but eventually led to dead end because completely stepped aside from regular Edain gameplay concepts.
  It happens ... it happened to me many times in the past. 
• #13 von Walküre am 21 Jan, 2019 17:13
• I have to second your conclusions, and thus concede defeat.
  
  If I remember correctly, the main aim of the thread was to discuss a possible implementation of those Hobbit lancers, and stressing the uniqueness of Palace Guards even more, by restricting their number and function. Furthermore, I think it was quite useful to have a general portrait of the faction's strategic nature. Quite interesting talk, if I have to say, despite the meagre outcome.
  
  Anyway, that was also almost an age ago. Prior to Galadriel and the new spells. Additionally, it was also before your new proposal gravitating around the Woodland Realm, which I will be very happy to join.
  
  Hence, I don't have any alternative left but lock the topic. I deem it pointless to go on with the initial objective of the thread. I think I have a better use for those valiant spearmen...
  
  

  --- LOCKED ---