[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Lothlorien Suggestions

Galadriel

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Odysseus:
I am glad we agree Walk. The gameplay experience could be enhanced significantly both for the competitive and the casual players if we could remove all the Random Number Generator mechanics that are still present in the mod, such as the Dwarven Greed and Galadriel's level 7 glance in the mirror ability.

Hamanathnath:
Well, I would say that Glance in the Mirrior isn't as risky as using greed is, because while you are at risk when you use Glance in the Mirrior, the reward that you could get is incredibly powerful.  For Greed, the risk is too high, and the reward not high enough, at least in my opinion.

Though I do agree that the RNG should be removed from Glance of the Mirrior for gameplay reasons. 

Walküre:
I really think it would be better to move this discussion here, so that a very interesting concept might be eventually found  :)


--- Zitat von: DrHouse93 am 12. Jul 2016, 12:58 ---
--- Zitat von: dgsgomes am 10. Jul 2016, 00:23 ---I really think that small changes would improve these heroes. Increasing slightly the damage or reducing slightly the cooldown of Saruman's and Gandalf's powers

--- Ende Zitat ---

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the problem there is due to a bug, which doesn't increase the damage of the two wizards as they level up. It should be fixed in the next version

About the Witch-king, I agree that his role as a Mass Slayer should be more prominent (actually, Zaphragor covers that role much better), but I don't think that giving him a weapon toggle would be a solution. Maybe increasing his area of effects of normal attacks would be a nice improvement

ABOUT GALADRIEL

I must say that her role as a supportive hero (or a destroyer when she gets the Ring) is quite perfect. However, the fact that she can die against an ordinary Cave Troll or Gorbag is quite lame for her, being one of the most powerful beings in Middle-earth

So, my solution would be to replace her stance-system with a special ability: activating it, it makes her switch to her "Terrible Form", where her role is more centered not on killing enemy heroes or single units, but rather weakening them and disrupting them. Why this?

Because we all know that Galadriel in the Third Age has some sort of "dark side", which shows up throughout her Terrible Form. Thanks to this, she can use her powers in a more darker way than the ordinary support: in fact, in her Terrible Form she was able to banish Sauron from Dol Guldur. But we also know that her Terrible Form is temporary. So, when she switches to her Terrible Form, she can't go back to her normal form immediately, but she will autonomously after some time (which becomes longer as she levels up) and, once returned to her ordinary form, she can't take her Terrible Form for the same amount of time

In her Terrible Form, her attacks will be centered on disrupting units and heroes. Therefore, she can't attack buildings, but her ordinary attacks now weaken struck enemies (similar to the Nazguls debuff) and will knock them down. Her abilities will be the following:

1. Gaze of Terrible Galadriel - ALL nearby units and heroes will have -10% damage and armor. Enemies struck by her ordinary attacks will be weakened by an additional -10% damage and armor malus, and will be knocked down. Passive ability
2. You have no power here! - Resets the counters of the chosen enemy hero's abilities to "just used" (same effect of the Witch-king's ability). Requires level 4
3. You are formless! - For a medium period of time, the chosen enemy hero will deal no damage. Requires level 7
4. Foundations of the earth - It summons a small earthquake on a nearby building. Galadriel's old classic. Requires level 9
5. Banishment - The chosen enemy hero will be instantly teleported to the closest allied base, and will be unable to do anything for an extended period of time. This ability has a long cooldown, and it's a mighty disrupting ability to compensate for not being able to use Nenya in her Terrible Form. Requires level 10

(Of course, using her abilities in her Terrible Form activates the cooldown of her ordinary abilities, too)

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SHE REJECTS THE RING?

Rather than her Terrible Form, she can switch to her Holy Form, mantaining the same effects and abilities, but with a different visual aspect (if previously her powers were due to her "dark side", now they're boosted by the Valar themselves). The only difference would be in the first ability, which will be the following:

1. Gaze of Holy Galadriel - All nearby enemies will be weakened by a -10% damage and armor debuff. Enemies struck will be weakened by an additional -10% and will also be knocked down. Allies in the radius of her attacks will be healed

All in all, the ability itself doesn't change so much, but given her increased stats from refusing the Ring, as well as the healing factor when there are allies close to her targets, will show even more the awesome powers of Galadriel

--- Ende Zitat ---


--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 12. Jul 2016, 15:34 ---Such a very interesting development of this discussion  :P

First of all, it's correct, the scaling issue is a bug and it will be fixed in the next patch. If that is an important factor in the current performance of wizards and other heroes, it will thus well be solved in the future, without having the need to alter the mechanics of roles and powers of each faction's hero.

Said that, I regard DrHouse's proposal as a very promising concept, although this might still seem to be, in my opinion, an initial suggestion that necessarily needs to be developed further and progressively polished (as all suggestions meant to blossom in useful proposals). At the state of things, I will then illustrate a bit the base of my own proposal I referred to in my previous comments; something I had been planning to do for quite some time.

My concept is mainly fashioned on what we see in BOTFA, during the banishment of Sauron. A controversial interpretation that both received praises for being innovative and a lot of criticism for its evident grotesque (if not macabre) touch. Nevertheless, left aside film-related debates, my ideas are centred on that aspect: Seaweed Galadriel. A form and a display of power that neither represents the 'normal' nature of Galadriel, nor does it come close to her having accepted the One Ring and thus becoming the Dark Queen of Middle Earth. A truly 'medium' appearance between the White (normal) and the Darkness (Dark Queen); symbolising that, albeit the sacred prowess of the Lady of Light, she has not been tested yet and so maintains in her heart deep ambitions of power (what has characterised her since her departure from Aman for this very reason). Her renowned ambition is quite far to be evil (given that she doesn't seek power by violent and subduing means), but it undoubtedly holds something obscure and dark about it. As DrHouse already pointed out fairly: dark sides of her personality and inner might.

Regarding the conceptual structure itself of my proposal, Galadriel will have a very unique stance option, enabling her to take her Seaweed form for a limited amount of time (since BOTFA shows that she can't obviously keep that form for so long). In this form, while being unable to attack normally units and structures (and being slowed down a bit), she will have a negative aura effect (whose properties are obviously yet to be discussed and defined clearly) against both enemy units and heroes, interfering with their actions rather than assuring her concrete chances to defeat them (as proposed in the previous posts). In this momentary appearance, her usual Palantír will be disabled and what I came up with so far is granting her a sole single power that relates to her usage of her phial and the actual banishment. Maybe a great wide-ranged wave that makes everyone flee and momentarily disables heroes' abilities? These were my initial ideas; other additional powers could be proposed and added in the course of the discussion.

Both accepting and refusing the One Ring will cause her to necessarily lose this stance system. Especially, becoming Blessed leads her to renounce to her ambitions and she hands over the phial to Frodo. Therefore, I don't think that she needs a stance system at all after taking the One Ring, but I had honestly not thought about possible concepts for her blessed form yet; henceforth, proposing that kind of features may be an option too. The core reasoning is that this will give her the possibility to have some chances to block and avoid units and heroes in dangerous contexts, without altering and disrupting her coherent role so much. Galadriel is also, along with Sauron, one of the most prominent and iconic heroes in the game, and I thus sincerely believe that she greatly deserves such unique stance system as the Lord of Mordor's (with all the due differences).

IMPORTANT: This is the basic idea of mine. Nevertheless, this Galadriel-centred debate should now be dealt with in the main Galadriel thread in the Lothlórien Suggestions board, lest it, as I fear, divert so much attention from the very topic of this thread, that encompasses multiple and wider themes. I thus recommend everyone move to that specific space to develop the discussions much more freely and specifically.

P.S. The graphical concept/model that is hypothetically to be used for Seaweed Galadriel might be a problematic aspect to deal with, since many people didn't in fact appreciated PJ's interpretation. I can prove, though, with actual evidences, that her concept was not originally intended to be as grotesque as it eventually turned out to be  ;)

--- Ende Zitat ---

Garlodur:
I think it would be very interesting indeed to give Galadriel such a in-between form as you have sketched. However, I have some problems with the portrayal of it in the movies.

In the book LOTR it is described as if Galadrieo briefly shows what kind of power she could be, and this can be interpreted as not so much a vision in the minds of Frodo and Sam, but also as a temporary change of appearance. What PJ did in the FOTR is exactly the kind of power that is described in the book, with which I completely agree, but what he did next in BOTFA was awful in my eyes, especially the way Galadriel was portrayed as very crazy and powerful whenever she feels like it. This is not in line with the power she shows briefly in the LOTR.

These are just my thoughts on the issue. Quite problematic because I think Galadriel would do well with some extra powers, but on the other hand there is this inconsistency between the books and the films.

Adding a bit to the discussion regarding her powers (I am changing my standpoint to 'in favour' here) I think it's crucial that this separate form that is clearly much stronger offensively should have a high cost in the form of Health Points, for example. Just like the Necromancer she could have a separate stance that allows these powers to be used but it gives her only two abilities:

1) (Passive) Galadriel does more damage to single targets from a much closer range (but not melee) at the cost of hit points for every attack, with possible inclusion of debuff for hit enemies or even areal debuff to ALL nearby units.
2) Banishment (active) - at a high cost of health points (50-75%) Galadriel scares away enemy units while enemy heroes are unable to attack for very short amount of time

The idea behind this was the fact that it costs Galadriel a lot of energy to conjure these powers (either actually heavy or dramatically increased heavy) as seen in BOTFA.
The stances system disappears, however, when Galadriel chooses to accept or deny the Ring, and become the Dark Queen or The Blessed consequently. I believe this makes sense as she has chosen to become 'holy' or embrace her dark side.

I hope this post was not too confusing ;)

Walküre:
First of all, thank you for having decided to participate in the debate. Your post was very clear and much fruitful to discuss some interesting points about  :)

More or less, I agree with you about the cinematographic portrayal in BOTFA. As I wrote myself in that initial post, this aspect is quite controversial and fiercely criticised by many fans of both the actual lore (mainly books) and the films. If you have some time to spend, I sincerely recommend you visit the Prancing Pony section of this forum, where you can find so many discussions about 'Seaweed' or 'Drowned' Galadriel and the concept's accurate/possible or inaccurate consistency with Tolkien's view (I have defended WETA's and PJ's portrayal of hers numerous times, presenting some lore facts and arguing clearly my position). In spite of the fact that not even her mirror sequence in FOTR is theoretically so much respectful of the main source (Galadriel was intentionally made a bit 'enigmatic' and subtly insidious by PJ), what I believe is that she would have been well able to temporarily banish the severely-weakened Sauron from Dol Guldur, assuming some sort of offensive form (the actual appearance is very much to be questioned though).

I do have evidences that her initial portrayal was really not intended to be that grotesque: I found some non-CGI images of her that could be viewed as a just compromise between the explosion of power that she conveys and the need of making her scarier and darker to adapt to that special context. Unfortunately, I recently changed PC and lost those pictures; but I will surely take time to retrieve them again from the unexplored width of the Internet. Nevertheless, pictures or not, Seaweed Galadriel has logical purposes behind her atypical concept, based on the specific BOTFA film-lore that PJ and the writers make usage of for their script: that is, once she steps out in Dol Guldur to save Gandalf, she rapidly has her powers and sacred aura being gradually drained by the poisonous influence of that dark fortress and by the action of Sauron himself, who, as a beacon, attracts and pulls out her latent obscure ambitions (as I stated, not necessarily evil, but obscure anyway). This is something PJ, Philippa Boyens and another writer explained exhaustively in a making-of video concerning the White Council sequence.

Adding to that, in another part of the video, Philippa Boyens (one of the main three writers of LOTR and the Hobbit, along with PJ and his wife) confirms that Galadriel loses plenty of her powers in banishing Sauron, and that's why she consequently appears a bit 'detached' in LOTR. Now, given that this last statement is really not so much loyal to the lore (Galadriel, in fact, is author of pivotal deeds in the War of the Ring), I nonetheless wanted to explore this 'weakening' motive more deeply, ending up with deciding to slow her movements down whenever she chooses to take that form (for the amount of power that she has to bear). Following this premise, I really like the suggestions you made about health and other possible consequences. Although the concept itself is still at its very first stage, this relevant theme could be a solid base to start from indeed.

Another point I also want to make clear again is the conceptual necessity of making this stance option a very temporary and drastic solution for dangerous situations, where her safety is really at risk by the action of heroes and monsters in particular. Otherwise, this feature would become just a poorer version of the Dark Queen, without any real logic of gameplay and balance, given that she is supposed to remain in her ethereal and supportive form most of the time.

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