Galadriel

[Garlodur]

Great work Walk! This proposal has certainly seen some amazing development.
I have some doubts about the availibility of this Seaweed Galadriel, however.

I am not sure whether a timer can be given to the stance system. I wanted to suggest instead an alternative for the place of this different version of Galadriel. What about replacing the Glare of Galadriel that scares enemy units in the target area? This ability spot would be taken over by Ambition of Ancient Times that opens a new Palantír with a timer like the ones Ghan-Buri Ghan and Grishnak have in the summon powers from Rohan and Isengard respectively.
Consequently I have a slight balance issue I want to bring up. If the ability Ambition of Ancient Times is only available when Galadriel's health is under 40%, won't she still be too vulnerable to heroes and monsters even with increased armour against them and their reduced damage? I might work out as a calculation but in-game it might not be sufficient to deal with certain abilities of enemy units or heroes that still deal high damage to single targets (Aragorn's Blade of the West, Beorning's anti-armour ability, etc.). My question would be whether she should be able to deal with these hero-killing abilities or only with a lower concentration of heroes and monsters until she reacher her level 10 to get rid of higher amounts of enemies.

I want to reiterate my earlier suggestion of adding a penalty to using the abilities You have no power! and Banishment into the Void in the form of a decrease of health points. The reason for this is that it would urge the player to almost sacrifice Galadriel in order to save herself (and whoever she is supporting with that ability). In the movie she is terribly weakened after contending Sauron, and I believe this should be reflected in-game as the great price she has to pay for doing so.

Lastly I wondered whether the abilities You have no power! and Banishment into the Void will share their cooldown with the current abilities corresponding to Galadriel level 7 (Glance in the Mirror, I believe) and level 10 (the Ring Nenya). It might be too much of a cooldown-inception, so it should probably reflected in the cooldown of the Ambition of Ancient Times ability.

As always I hope this contributes to the development of Galadriel into the magnificent Elven Queen of old. Now I wonder when Elrond is up for discussion.

[Walküre]

Hi Garlodur! It's always great and really interesting to read your precious contributions to this topic. Yes, I too am very much hopeful that we are finally getting very close to a defined ultimate concept. Nevertheless, I will continue to try to gather more voices here from the forum, given that I'm eager to know other people's thoughts on Ambitions from Ancient Times. Obviously, regarding the very name of the feature, anyone is more than free to propose other titles that might be deemed more suitable for the context. I would personally see Fiery Heart as very proper as well: it effectively refers to the pride of the Lady of Light and her resolution, since the first time she stood up in the Noldor's council in Tirion and campaigned for the exile in Middle-earth.

Now my response to your remark. I must have certainly done an inaccurate thing when I called this proposal a stance system. What I suggested is in fact a feature (temporary) that allows to open a new Palantír (and changes Galadriel's appearance), with the abilities shown in the presentation of the concept. As you rightly pointed out, it works differently from the usual stance system, but I addressed to it that way because it really reminds me of something very similar to different stances; in this case, the momentary option to turn her supportive design into a more aggressive/disruptive one (displaying this twist also with her marred/tainted look as Seaweed Galadriel). The feature nonetheless works as I explained in the main previous comment of mine, and it thus replaces the normal stances and not the Gaze ability. This was more a matter of terminology; I apologise, if it created confusion 

The heart of this proposal is giving Galadriel some chances to resist the assaults of heroes and monsters, while interfering with their actions. Interference is exactly the element at the centre of all. Said that, we aren't talking about hero-killer properties at all; I made it clear that she is always supposed to be escorted by other troops and heroes, and that Ambitions from Ancient Times/Fiery Heart serves her well in very dangerous situations of emergency. No way will she ever be capable of challenging heroes directly or of even taking them down; she won't be able to attack while this form is activated, and that one is the role of Celeborn.

My question would be whether she should be able to deal with these hero-killing abilities or only with a lower concentration of heroes and monsters until she reaches her level 10 to get rid of higher amounts of enemies.

The latter of the two, keeping in mind that 'dealing with' means having the concrete opportunity to survive against them and to disrupt their plans 

Honestly, I'm not for a reduction of her health. I sincerely believe that the whole weakness motive, an absolutely fundamental factor, is already well displayed by the current effects; that is, unlocking the ability at 40% of health, the fact that she can't attack neither units nor structures and her movements slowed down. Additional negative effects would affect her too much, without any clear reason (making this option definitely unfavourable, rather than naturally risky). The cool-down of the feature shall necessarily be moderate, along with a reasonably brief duration, so that the player is not to use You Have no Power! and Banishment into the Void twice in a row.

[The_Necromancer0]

This is a lot to take in but I've had several read throughs so I'll try to do my best to answer back.

The initial ability Ambitions from Ancient Times seems well balanced with the negative effects it brings to her. So that's a good point although I might have an issue with the fact that the ability could be use to save Galadriel in many situations.

Most abilities sound good and seem balanced. Banishment into the Void feels very strong, this reset of all the abilities of all nearby heroes is very powerful. I would suggest some counter effect to balance it a bit such as forcing Galadriel back into her normal form. I also think it should only temporarily stun enemy heroes instead of making them flee.

Apart from that good work on the proposal, it's solid and you guys have poured a lot of effort into making it simple, well done! The sounds are also very good and definitely usable.

I really don't have much to say, the proposal looks solid and apart from tweaking the numbers a bit and wrapping up the visuals. Good luck on your project although I doubt you'll need it seeing the work already accomplished. 

[Walküre]

Many thanks, Necro, for joining the debate around this proposal. As I stated in the following comments after that main presentation, this feature won't make Galadriel a new hero-killer, nor does it intend to grant her certain safety from all perils (as she's always supposed to be escorted by someone else, be it troops or other heroes). It's instead a valuable addition to her defence against a selected type of tough opponents, and very much consistent with her characterisation in the lore (she has not been tested yet and her ancient desires of might), with the darker Hobbit atmosphere (although with severe restrictions and based on the premise that this Hobbit motive will remain absolutely secondary, compared to her basic LOTR concept) and with the status of this heroine in her faction (her cost as well).

I would like the terror property of Banishment into the Void to remain, as it is a central element in the banishment scene. I like very much the other suggestion of yours though: forcing her to return back to her normal form after she uses the ability would even things up even more, and it's well loyal to the very scene of BOTFA too. I will thus edit the post and add the adjustment you proposed 

Speaking about graphics and animations, I would dare to say that there shouldn't be big problematical issues concerning these fields. A complete model of Galadriel already exists, and it will then mainly be a matter of graphical changes to make her resemble the non-CGI Seaweed Galadriel and the FX surrounding her. The first two abilities don't need an animation at all and for the third one there is Frodo's phial animation (which would be very fitting for her equally). Her slowed down movements could imitate the pace of common peasants. Besides, thank you again for your precious contribution 

[Julio229]

I must say, this is an amazing proposal! The amount of work you have put into this is simply astounding, and it just fits perfectly with Galadriel's character! I'm totally for this proposal to be included in the mod!

I like the abilities and their images a lot, and it is really fitting for the most powerful Elf of the Third Age that she is capable of unleashing that power when it is needed, when she has low health, it is just so unique! The temporary form replacing the stance is great, and I believe more heroes should have a unique system instead of regular stances to further help their characterization, because Sauron is amazing and this Galadriel would be just perfect, they both embody the character they are perfectly!

I'm just amazed by the work this proposal must have needed, so I am for this suggestion to be included!

[Walküre]

Many thanks indeed, Julio, for appreciating the concept as a whole and its purposes. I also edited the presentation post by adding some minor aspects. I will now continue to try to get as much feedback as I can from other people (as I have done so far).

Any opinion and remark are always more than welcome 

[Garlodur]

One last thing though, why should Galadriel not be allowed to attack at all when she has changed her stance with Ambition of Ancient Times?

I know, her damage is pretty low, but I have started wondering whether it would be worth using the ability at lower levels if she can barely do anything to protect herself. She can't run away because she will be slower than even the slowest heroes (Karsh and Dwarves), and her armour increase and damage debuffing of enemy heroes and single units, might not amount to enough resistance at the low health required for activation.

Could it be interesting to add an effect to her standard attack, or would that make things too complicated? She could still attack heroes and single units, but not regular units or buildings, with low damage but with the effect of slowing them down, stunning them briefly, or reducing their damage even further, for example. These changes would have some consequences for Banishment into the Void; instead of scaring heroes to run (which I thought wasn't technically possible) she could either knock them all back very far, or give them a stun that slows down their movement speed even after the stun is over.

All in all, I am absolutely FOR this proposal. It's looking great DieWalküre. I'm looking forward to playing Lorién with this Galadriel. 

[Walküre]

One last thing though, why should Galadriel not be allowed to attack at all when she has changed her stance with Ambition of Ancient Times?

I found disabling her attack and slowing her down reasonable compromises to make this momentary stance-system fit well in Galadriel's already consistent and lore accurate design. As I pointed out and reaffirmed many times, her current role as hero supporter must necessarily remain the centre of all. Furthermore, the stance-system is meant to twist her supportive abilities in interfering features, to mirror (with the due differences) what happens with Sauron: the concept of mutating nature/essence (appearance) and unlocking aggressive powers. Galadriel, as the Dark Lord's nemesis in Middle-earth, would thus have too the chance to show how much disruptive her prowess can be towards the enemies (and the shift to this more aggressive form would exactly be symbolised by her transformation).

Even though she will be able to resist more damage, halting heroes' actions or frustrating their moves, she is nonetheless supposed to be escorted by other troops or heroes. Being a hero-interferer (the reversal of hero-supporter abilities) doesn't follow that she should also be given an attack and speed increase. Imagine her being allowed to attack heroes and moving quickly while in that form, added to the features she is already supposed to perform; she would eventually turn out as a hero killer, and this is exactly what I wanted to avoid at all costs, for it would contrast with all the premises stated above and would be completely unnecessary (Celeborn is the one appointed to slay heroes).

The basic properties of Galadriel's presence in the game must absolutely remain unaltered. She must continue to remain behind the frontline and cast her Magic (supportive or disruptive) via long-range abilities.

As for Banishment into the Void, the ability was exactly conceived in accordance to what I explained in the previous passages. If some of its effects are really not technically feasible, we will then proceed with modifying what ought to be modified.

Thank you for your support, Garlodur, and for having followed the development of this proposal since its first days 

[LordDainIronfoot]

I don't have much time as of lately but I did manage to at least read Walks Combined and Refined Concept,and all I can say with my limited time is that it is one of the best Concepts I have read in the MU...

Congrats to him and all who took part in the development of the Concept,you have done a magnificent job. Really nice and detailed and even Visual Add as Pics for Skills and everything. I think the suggestion is really great,and for a Character with Galadriel Importance  and Power and Influence she really deserves this attention and upgrade... all I can say is that I hope that Edain Team will really consider and even use most of the Concept at least,and I am looking forward to see all this in Game!

Thank you Walk and all for the hard work,I hope the Team will appreciate and even use it!

[Walküre]

Thank you Walk and all for the hard work, I hope the Team will appreciate and even use it!

Many thanks to you instead, Dáin, for your very kind words. And thank you for appreciating the purpose and elements of this concept. I hope you'll return active again here, as I really miss your honest opinion and judgement, and that even your own valuable proposals will eventually find a way in the game.

Greetings 

[dkbluewizard]

Hey Diewalkure, I read your proposal and feel it is perfect. It goes in tangent with the films, books, and game. The 40% health is crucial and I feel that is key here. Galadriel retains her uses, but doesn't have to have other heroes or units protecting her now. This was very good!

[Walküre]

Hey Diewalkure, I read your proposal and feel it is perfect. It goes in tangent with the films, books, and game. The 40% health is crucial and I feel that is key here. Galadriel retains her uses, but doesn't have to have other heroes or units protecting her now. This was very good!

Thank you very much for the support and the participation here. And welcome to Modding Union! 

Yes, I exactly wanted to come up with a concept which feeds from the Hobbit trilogy (albeit toning its grotesque element down a bit), the game and the lore. A feature that only adds something more to Galadriel's already well-thought concept, without radical changes in regards of her ordinary characterisation. In my opinion, a wise scope for exploring the darker sides of her character during her more-than-6000-year permanence in Middle-earth. Not only is she capable of supporting her realm and her people as a real (de facto) queen, but she may also contest any enemy, should the circumstances require it.

[Amandil7]

I like the Games Workshop concept of Galadriel maintaining her encahantress form at some cost. Like in the movie, she gets "diminished" after facing off against Sauron.

Maybe give her a level 5/7 ability to change into her Dark/Drowned form, with stronger abilities but at the cost of losing her health at a constant rate while in that form. Just a suggestion.

Also random idea, maybe she could have an ability :"Treacherous as the Sea" and summon a whirlpool similar to the one the storm ships have.

DieWalküre Your stance idea would suit her perfectly too!

[Walküre]

DieWalküre Your stance idea would suit her perfectly too!

Thank you very much for appreciating the concept, Amandil 

Regarding your suggestion, I decided to explore the weakening motive of the films by making the system be available at a certain level of health. Reducing her health progressively is an aspect kind of similar to the whole sacrifice theme of Angmar (and I don't think it would fit well in Lothlórien at all). Not to mention that I'm not particularly fond of the idea of losing health either.

Also random idea, maybe she could have an ability :"Treacherous as the Sea" and summon a whirlpool similar to the one the storm ships have.

As I pointed out in previous comments of mine, I exactly avoided to grant her this type of abilities, because they would turn her in a lesser version of the Dark Queen: the stance-system wouldn't thus be unique anymore and risk to be completely redundant. The centre of all is that the supportive abilities she casts from afar are twisted in interfering abilities (which are nonetheless cast via long-range features). The tornado from BFME2 would therefore violate these premises, due to its highly destructive nature.

[Walküre]

I updated the main concept-post. Finally, it seems that someone cut the right excerpt of the Dol Guldur sequence (behind-the-scenes) that we need: PJ's, Cate's and the WETA staff's words will certainly serve better than my own. The kernel of the conceptual premises shown here is wholly expressed in this interesting video 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5MTlpluRZw