Maiar-Form?

[ThaneWulfgharn]

While playing 4.0 with Mordor I came across this idea about the "Maiar Form" or "Supreme Form" of the Wizard-Class Heroes, which changes their appearence and makes them quite strong, purchasable through a Palantir Power.

For example:
Arnor/Gondor - Gandalf -> Olorin - Very powerful lights spells

Isengard - Saruman -> Curumo* If Curumo takes the Ring he becomes Curumo the Blessed, if Saruman takes the Ring he becomes Saruman the Cursed. Curumo is Lightning focused.

Rohan - Radagast -> Aiwendil - Summons various beasts to aid in battle.

Mordor - (Just as it is now)

Dwarves - Thorin Oakenshield - King Thorin* Not a "wizard" but a very powerful warrior in offense. Researchable through "Arkenstone" which also costs resources.

For the future factions, Elves would have Galadriel, Angmar would have the Witch King, Mountain orcs?(no idea) and if you decide to integrate them, Morinehtar(Alatar) for Haradrim and Romestamo(Pallando) for Easterlings.

[TiberiusOgden]

No.
It hasn't Middle-earth and Edain logic.
Gandalf the White with the One ring or Saruman already have similar upgrade.
But for Thorin, Gladys, Witch king etc? ... By the way, Radagast and Blue wizards will be only in the spellbook, so there isn't space for it.

[helloa2134]

Agreed.  The idea doesn't make sense.  The Istari had their powers limited by the Valar when they were sent over to Middle-earth, so there is no way they could reclaim the full majesty they possess in Valinor until they return West. 

King Thorin is just Thorin's level 10 skin, which comes with improved leadership and a revised power set.

[ThaneWulfgharn]

Maybe I didn't write clearly - The idea isn't that the Wizards "get the ring and become Maiar-Forms".

The idea is that they become "Maiar Forms" without the Ring, i.e. the Valar unleash their powers (through final level research from the palantir spellbook)

As for Thorin, Galadriel, Witchking etc. they don't become Maiar. They just have a similiar upgrade in order to balance their factions.

For example, Thorin, becoming king,  has the best dwarven-crafted items, therefore, he is very strong in combat.

[LordDainIronfoot]

I do not like it so much!There will be many OP Heroes and also contradicts strongly with any lore so I doubt the Team will like it too!

[helloa2134]

Maybe I didn't write clearly - The idea isn't that the Wizards "get the ring and become Maiar-Forms".

The idea is that they become "Maiar Forms" without the Ring, i.e. the Valar unleash their powers (through final level research from the palantir spellbook)

For example, Thorin, becoming king,  has the best dwarven-crafted items, therefore, he is very strong in combat.

I understand what you mean, but the Valar would NEVER let the Istari have their full powers as a Maia whilst in Middle Earth (even Gandalf the White isn't as sublime as Olorin in Valinor.)

The other problem is that, if every faction has an ultimate-hero palantir skill, it removes the uniqueness of Mordor's "Power of Past Ages," which is at the moment one of the most unique spells in the mod.  The powers become boring and the different spell books for the various factions start to feel too similar.

A similar system would also have to be found for the Iron Hills and Erebor.

[Eldalf]

The thing is, the Istari were expressly forbidden from ever retaking their form's to directly contest Sauron.  There is a reason that they were in the form of men, it was to ensure that they could never do as Sauron had done and don a fair face and seduce men and elves. Likewise, the limits to their powers were intentional. In fact it could be reasonable to believe that the greatest of the Eldar were mightier in direct power than the Wizards, because fundamentally, the Istari were meant to not be able to contest with the Children of Eru. It could be summed up with there being an incompatibility with Hroa and Fea, Elves such as Galadrial and Elrond would be more in tune with their powers as those powers are a consequence of their soul and body. Gandalf and Saruman in contrast would be more limited, their souls being forced into an unnatural body, in a similar way to how Sauron and Morgoth became intrinsically linked to the forms they wore as they invested more of themselves, however in the process their power became increasingly less, Morgoth once mightier than his kin was left less than the weakest by the time of his final fall, as he had become more tightly bound to his form. Likewise the Istari should probably be much weaker than they are in game, they are not supposed to fight a war, they are supposed to advise others who do!

[Gandalf The Gray]

come on man this is can be a what if gandalf takes his maiar form and what if saruman takes his maiar form.

[helloa2134]

I don't think the team is going to find that convincing. They won't add the mechanic if it is immensely against the lore.  And, as I said earlier,  making the mechanic universal across factions is boring.

[Lord of Mordor]

As others have already said, this would be a big violation of the lore, so it's not something we plan on doing. To be fair, Gorthaur is against the lore as well so we're not always 100% consistent here, but superpowered forms like that still aren't something we want to give to every Maia. With Sauron, it's a way to incorporate a very important part of his back story, whereas Gandalf and Saruman played their main story parts in the Istari forms they have now.

[Gandalf The Gray]

well gandalf with the ring is a violation of the lore too

[helloa2134]

Anyone aside from Sauron with the ring is a violation, but the ring mechanic has always been an acceptable "what-if" mechanic.  Inherently the ring mechanic is against the lore, but it was in the base game so the team has just made it better and more developed.  Most of them are based on one of Tolkiens letters (which I can't remember) so they aren't totally made up.

[Eldalf]

Gandalf with the ring is not against the lore. It is an answer to the question of what if Gandalf was not able to convince Frodo to not offer it to him. Gandalf couldn't even bring himself to touch the ring, knowing that if he touched it, his desire to use the power for good would damn him entirely.

Too be honest, the fair form of Sauron is a direct lore violation. In the downfall of Numenor he lost his fair form and could never again take a form that was not the towering colossus of a dark lord. I would also support removing that as a result

[helloa2134]

Too be honest, the fair form of Sauron is a direct lore violation. In the downfall of Numenor he lost his fair form and could never again take a form that was not the towering colossus of a dark lord. I would also support removing that as a result

I think you are joking, because of the smiley face.

That being said, the LoM admitted that it is against the lore, but the uniqueness and coolness of the ability trumps the inherent lore-unfriendliness of it.  I suppose it is the team's artistic license.   Besides, as LoM said, Gorthaur, the terror of the First and Second Age, has some reason for appearing in the mod, whereas Olorin and Curumo do not, as they never appeared outside of Valinor.

[Eldalf]

I am and I am not. I find the abilities conferred to be interesting enough from a programmers perspective to over rule the Tolkien scholar in me who finds it is a direct contradiction to an explicit point of the Professors writing. Having worked on academic analysis of Tolkien, I do often find myself torn, in that I respect his undertaking to a point that is insane. However, I also like cool and innovative ideas of coding within the scripting capabilities of the engine hence why I have a smiley face on my post.