[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions

New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills

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CragLord:
Nice comment Dain! Agree with you!
Main problem as could see on that german discussion is lack of real arguments against this suggestion... I meant real lore facts against this, not only simple thoughts about this!? From my prospective situation is clear about this suggestion when we take a look on german discussion about this...


--- Zitat ---Ealendril has personally noted that he doesn’t like the concept and the role of the hero at all, and gives no meaning to the mod.
--- Ende Zitat ---

I have read this also on german discussion...
Ok, I understand if Ea don't like concept of this hero, maybe there could be made some changes, but that part about no meaning to the mod, if I have understood correctly, I could say next:

1. Isn't better to have new Outpost hero for Iron Hills in place of Bard? What are lore reasons on which you based idea of Lake Town like Outpost for Iron Hills and in this term Bard like Outpost hero for Iron Hills. I have tried many times to find some reasonable link between them, no success. I can understand personal preferences, but current situation with Lake Town is not appropriate.
2. Bard is range hero, this is also kind of unbalance in this mod, Iron Hills already have 1 range main hero (Drar) ! Look at other dwarven faction. Erebor also has 1 (Brand), and Ered Luin  has 1 (Bard) (Killi is more like some kind of support, from objective perspective he is part of spell)
3. It is really disappointing fact that members of this eng part need to go to german section and use translator in order to get opinion from main leader of this team about this matter! Many thanks to Fredius!

Also about this Outpost building in general:

There is a lot of lore facts for this. We have written 9 pages of this concept btw, and we have express all lore fact on which we based this idea. And at the end we got opinion that this would not bring something new to the mod... Guys, be objective please, what is Erebor Outpost then Lake Town's one with different skin and same units... Same idea you have here in general, so please find better argument (plus those ideas have been used strictly from movie, we have tried to suggest something out of movie and mainly from lore! This is building which has existed in Tolkien world, it was important to the dwarves, we used that idea. There was reasons that this is copy of Lake Town/Dale. In term of balance as I have understood this game, shouldn't dwarven faction be equal when we speak about function of Outposts? As I have said earlier, this should polish Iron Hills more in lore way, Lake Town is really not appropriate from lore prespective)
And just to add this Outpost would have some dwarven based buildings and units, isn't that refreshment in this mod? Integration of other dwarven realms into this mod, isn't that good? I know this is lot of work, I don't deny that, but we are talking about this suggestion for far future obviously...

From all anti-suggestion comments from german topic, there is one in which member wrote that is is just "other" idea for integration of movie models. That is not true, we have suggested them, but also have suggested other models from other games (Wotn, and old veterans models, also a some of Weta designs). So please try to be objective and read idea in general, what I could conclude from that comment is that guy has seen only what he don't like and generalize that on whole idea.

Also there is comment that this mod don't need another two dwarven "völker" (people if I have understood correctly).
Why? Hmm, maybe because diversity, and representation of lore and in order to create something more interesting then Lake Town/Dale soldiers, and which correspond to dwarves also.   

Also in same comment from Gimilzar, there is reason that gray mountains are abandoned because of lack of ore and danger of cold drakes.

Yes they did, but you can't use now any time fact against this, simply Dwarves lived there, and they foughts cold drakes there, not so long ago before they have established Erebor, so anti time fact here is not something big reason to deny this... What sould we say about time gap which exist between some heroes or entire factions (Angmar/Arnor) if you want to be so precise?
Also there is indications that some of population have stay there and continue mining and fighting with cold drakes, so in that term, those dwarves must be fierce warriors indeed. There is also enough reasons to add them.
Main reason of adding those 3 units battalions (not populations or people or entire "völker") is to represent some diversity, best way is to use those lore facts and bring some units from population which existed... 
Also about lack of ore, I haven't found that in tolkiengateway/lotr wiki.

Iron Hills have same number of heroes like other dwarven faction, that complain about number of Iron Hills heroes is ridiculous. This is mainly idea of replacing Bard with some other more lore accurate hero...

About Orocarni dwarves, it is matter of personal opinion about what you think about them. One fact we know from lore is that they were fierce warriors and have gold lust before they got ring of power. But there is non single information of indication that they have ever served Sauron in any possible way!
Also they have fulfilled their oath when we got to the Battle of Azanulbizar! So that is indication that they collaborate with other houses, and Iron Hills were closest dwarven kingdom. Personally I find those dwarves really important, when we speak in general terms. It is natural to presume that those two Orocarni houses were mighty (they were isolated, had enough time without war, enough time to develop their kingdoms etc ), but this is also personal opinion mainly.

At the end, most of eng members don't speak english as native language, but we communicate here without problems. And I presume that lot of members from german part know how to express themselves on this part of forum, so I invite them to join here. It is "ridiculous" to communicate over Fredius (beside his good will to do this translations...) about this suggestion, simply this is original topic about this.

Fredius:
Wow CraigLord and Dain those are great arguments thank you very much! Needless to say I agree with all of them. As you and LordDainIronfoot pointed out, we don't necesseraly want to use the Hobbit concepts, they're just ideas, so I'll just remove those from the main page so that they can't "accuse" us anymore. On the pages in this thread I found all kinds of concept art for the Orocarni and Ered Mithrin units, which are not from the Hobbit movies or it's concepts. Should I just post every one of them or only a select few?

Anyway, I'll try to make a summary of all these arguments, and put them in the first post of the poll inside the German forums. I'll do the translating tomorrow or monday, because making these translations is pretty time-consuming and I have also other stuff to do. Also I'll give it a little bit more time to see if there are other members willing to give more suggestions. Feel free to post anymore here! And as you said Craig let's hope that the German forum members post some of their ideas here too, because I'm pretty sure that a lot of them have mastered the English language ;).

Aragorn II.:
First of all, I am from the german forum, so sorry for my english. :D
Personally I am against the concept, because i like Laketown and I think, it fits better to the dwarfs then this Assembly Hall. I can understand that you want to have the other dwarf nations in the mod, but I think that Laketown fits very well to the Ironhills. The Ironhills in the edain mod are concepted to the time of the Hobbit and we know exactly that at that time these fractions fight together against the Orks in the battle of the five armies. Because of this lore facts, Laketown is the Outpost from the ironhills and Ered Luin (also based on the book, because the Ered Luin are at the time of the Hobbit and fight together with the people of Laketown).

LordDainIronfoot:
First of all thank you for your opinion here!
And with all my respect the only connection between Iron Hilsl and Lake Town(which did't even had proper Army) is BoFA and thats all for the whole Third Age Period!? Lake Town is more arpropriate for Ered Luin there I agree but not Iron Hills,there are no evidence od Dain having connections with them and it is more apropriate to conclude he has relations with other Dwarven Houses and Collonies and Realms and although it is still kinda speculation it will bring more divrsity in game and allow the including of other Dwarven Realms of which at one time were 7!!
Plus Orocarni and Ered Mithrin existed trough the whole Third Age or at least nothing proves other way so there is no time probelm here at least to me!
And let's not start with the fact that Ered Luin wa NO actualy and millitary strong Kingdom!! :) In Ered Mithrin there are indications that small parties of Dwarves left and slowly cleared the Mountain from Drakes which makes the strong and 1-2 Battalions of them I find good! :)
And what is bad in having different Dwarven Houses/Clans which are uhniqe and different, I find it similar to Mordor having 10 kinds of Orcs from all over MIddle Earth!?
And 2 ideantical Outposts are not so uniqe and interesting when tere is unexplored and developed things like other Dwarves which will make more interesting and diverse!?
I find it better to have another Lore Hero than 2 identical Bards!? :)
So I am sorry to dissagree but I do not think Iron Hills has enough strong connections with Lake Town! :)

CragLord:
Welcome Aragorn II. ! :)

I understand personal preferences. But in this case, Lake Town don't have lore connections with Iron Hills. You have specified link from BOFA, I will tell you next, those dwarves wanted to crush people of Lake Town when they decide to stood between them and Erebor (from book). So it was natural they fought together against goblins and wargs when they wanted to kill them all. :) In other words, this isn't fact which could be used for integration of Lake Town as Outpost for Iron Hills. Also there is no lore reason for this.
Other words, I understand that you like this Outpost, but it already exist in Ered Luin faction. :) You should also think about this.
What is more interesting 2 Different Kingdoms with 100% identical outposts and Units and Hero which do not have real connection or having a completely different units and hero with more lore connection?

Greetings.

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