Greed power change

[Adrigabbro]

I'm starting a thread about dwarven spells "Greed" and "Lone Tower" which I think are not right at the moment. As I've already said, I think the former is just not fun at all and the latter doesn't fit in any way.


~> Greed. I propose two alternatives:

- Decrease the amout of gold dropped but increase the chance of having money. Additionaly, in case of bad luck, the selected mine is no longer destroyed but looses half HP. It could go with a design change: replace the Balrog by something less laggy and flashy (Indeed, there is only one Durin's Bane and as far as I know, there is no reason for a Balrog to pop under the Shire )

- The selected mine gives gold but looses permanently 50% armor.
I like this one better because it doesn't depend on luck and the more you use this spell (i.e. the deeper you dig ), the weaker the mine is. I also assume that the team is not really fond of the luck system as I remember them saying that BFME2 random system was weird, and in the last patch they got rid of luck in the Travel Camp system.


~> Lone Tower. This spell is not unique and is more suitable with Gondor. I propose to get rid of it. Two ideas of a replacement spell:

- Summons one battalion of Ramriders.

- Equips the selected battalion with Forged Blades (fairly long cooldwon for balance concern)

Once again I prefer the second option as I'm not fond of Ramriders and I think the latter is particulary adequate. Indeed, it is stated in the Silmarillion that even the Noldor, including Feanor's sons themselves, sought dwarven skill to get weapons.


All of this is up to debate of course, and I'd like to know what you think. 

EDIT: added poll.

[Tienety]

I agree these two spells need a changes. Personally, I don't like luck systems. 
I like this idea for Greed spell: 

- The selected mine gives gold but looses permanently 50% armor.
I like this one better because it doesn't depend on luck and the more you use this spell (i.e. the deeper you dig ), the weaker the mine is. I also assume that the team is not really fond of the luck system as I remember them saying that BFME2 random system was weird, and in the last patch they got rid of luck in the Travel Camp system.

Lone Tower is not is unique but this spell is very useful. 

- Summons one battalion of Ramriders.

- Equips the selected battalion with Forged Blades (fairly long cooldwon for balance concern)

I think that the ram riders are more fit for Dain on level 10. 
if I know, Gamling had forged blades but this spell has been removed because balance problem.

[CragLord]

Well, there is different opinions among different persons, agree there must be some change.
First I want to say that I also don't like luck system. Didn't like that luck system with Veterans, team change it thx to the God, also don't like situation when Balrog destroys mine and devastates economy. This makes harder to play strategy game like this one. Also I agree about Lore aspects with you (as you said Balrog comes beneth Shire map), but I have really found this idea about Balrog briliant. Team used that Lore information and implemented it on unique way, afterall this is really important Lore information, it is important piece of Dwarven History, and I really like how team implement this in game(like idea).
I am not for complete removing of mine luck sistem, I am only for decresing (big reduction) chanse of situation when Balrog jumps out (This implementation as I said above should stay because of Lore, it's important part of history).  Decrease is justified from perspective there is only one Durin's Bane and he isn't lineger beneath surface of every map.
Also this idea supplements your thought about "Decreasing the amout of gold dropped but increasing the chance of having money."

About Lone Towers, we disagree completely.
Lone towers should stay part of Dwarven Powers Meni in my opinion. Why?
Simply because I have found that structure important part of deffensive mehanisam (I really like to secure  mine/lumer mill with few of those towers, similar situation with Gondor, I really have found those towers useful.)

About Ram idea, I am with Tienety, we are suggesting that Ram riders should be implemented somehow in Dain's lvl 10 summon power.

[LordDainIronfoot]

The tower is pretty suitable for Dwarves as well as Gondor even more for Dwarves! :)It is a nice low prive Spell!Unlike the Citadel the Tower is very usefull!
About the Greed Spell well she does need some change in the mechanism at least!

[Gandalf The Gray]

i think the greed think its ok and lore friendly who knows what is buried beneath the shire from the first age but i agree on the lone tower its not unique

[helloa2134]

I actually like the lone tower ability.  They are defensive abilities for the two most defensive factions so it is appropriate for Gondor and Dwarves.

Greed needs a rework, because right now it is not a useful ability, because the reward does not justify the risk.

[Gandalf The Gray]

in the beginning i was thinking balrog should destroy some buildings around him and you should fight him  stop 

[Adrigabbro]

Well, the poll and the comments seem pretty clear: Lone Tower is fine.

CragLord: It would also be a good change for sure.

[CragLord]

And maybe it will be nice to change way of getting gold in "Greed" power. Animation when four treasure chests pop out after small earthquake on that mine is nice, but that implementation always require  some units near mine or already tunneled units in that mine  in order to get that chests and gold. In other words, this isn't instant money (Like we have with Isenguard trees devastation power), you must collect those chests. And there is also possibility that enemy collects that chests of gold ( I know, smart person will never use this power on mine where exist possibility of stealing chests, but as I said possibility exist in general), as it's not enough possibility of Balrog poping out. In that way of thinking, "Greed" as support power is very hard way of getting bonus resourses. Because of that  maybe is better that bonus gold  is received instantly. Animation could stay same only after treasure pops out,it should stay there for 1-2 sec and after that it should disappear (Like when it's collected by units, and on that mine number of bonus gold pops up) and player gets gold. If this isn't possible, than maybe to change animation, after greed is used on mine, there will be small earthquake on that mine (like now in game) and after that there won't be summoning of chests. Insted Mine glows for 1-2 sec and after that number of bonus gold pops out (on selected mine) and player gets his bonus resources.
What do you think about this idea?

[Gandalf The Gray]

And maybe it will be nice to change way of getting gold in "Greed" power. Animation when four treasure chests pop out after small earthquake on that mine is nice, but that implementation always require  some units near mine or already tunneled units in that mine  in order to get that chests and gold. In other words, this isn't instant money (Like we have with Isenguard trees devastation power), you must collect those chests. And there is also possibility that enemy collects that chests of gold ( I know, smart person will never use this power on mine where exist possibility of stealing chests, but as I said possibility exist in general), as it's not enough possibility of Balrog poping out. In that way of thinking, "Greed" as support power is very hard way of getting bonus resourses. Because of that I  maybe is better that bonus gold  is received instantly. Animation could stay same only after treasure pops out,it should stay there for 1-2 sec and after that it should disappear (Like when it's collected by units, and on that mine number of bonus gold pops up) and player gets gold. If this isn't possible, than maybe to change animation, after greed is used on mine, there will be small earthquake on that mine (like now in game) and after that there won't be summoning of chests. Insted Mine glows for 1-2 sec and after that number of bonus gold pops out (on selected mine) and player gets his bonus resources.
What do you think about this idea?

i think its a good idea

[Adrigabbro]

Ye, it would be an interesting quality of life change. The current system brings more frustration than anything. ^^

[deathbirdw]

okay dont know the spells name but its the one where u get money or the balrog. i never use it because the risk is too high for 1000 and just heard people on moddb complaining about it. why not make it give more gold or (this is my real suggestion) a second layer of 'mithril' armour to the troops that collect each chest. in 3.8 the ability to upgrade them with a second layer of armour was available so it could be added back via this spell.

reasons for this: it would make the risk of the balrog more worth while,  it would mimic the reason the balrog was summoned in book (mithril), it would bring back an old upgrade which i liked
                     

[CragLord]

Hello mate,

Everything realated to this matter you should post here: Link
It is topic in which we some time ago discussed about greed power.
There is no need to open new thread about this.
I presume our moderator will close this topic, so I suggest you that proposals about Greed power post on topic I pointed to you.

P.S. I know that Dwarven board is huge and there is a lot of topics, but next time just try to find corresponding topic before you decide to open new one. Because board is big, it is likely that there is already opened topic which corresponds suggestion. It is minor thing and it keeps forum tidy and makes life of our moderators easier.

Kind Regards,
CragLord

[Walküre]

Problem solved.
As you can see, hoho96 merged the two threads in only one 

[Odysseus]

1. About the Lone Tower: Personally, I feel that the Lone Tower is always useful (in a specific transitional period in the game, mind you) no matter which faction would theoretically make use of it. A tower can serve as a damage sponge or a distraction and also do some decent damage especially from early to mid game. I would agree with you if you would argue that they would lose some of their charm when upgrades and multiple heroes start hitting the field.

My suggestion: I don't know if it is technically possible to do this, but let's say you upgrade your towers via the Stone Mason with the forged blades upgrades, would it perhaps be possible to upgrade it accordingly with that upgrade and also grant it forged blades so that the tower is more effective in late game. Just wondering, but somewhere deep in my thoughts, I remember vanilla BFME II having this, no? Or perhaps some other mod hmm. Anyway, off-topic, my apologies.

2. The Greed Spell: This spell could perhaps use a bit of tweaking, yes. In competitive play, the ''RNG'' factor is never favoured since it cannot be controlled and personal skill cannot be tied to the ability and I agree with you in this case .

My suggestion: I'd be willing to decrease the resources it grants and in exchange, make it consistent. Another potential factor to balance it out would be to slightly decrease the armour of the mine, after the ability has been used, to weigh it out a little.

Just some ideas. I'd appreciate it if you would tell me what you think about them and my reasoning as well.

Kind regards.

[Adrigabbro]

By the time I first posted these ideas I've changed my mind about Lone Tower, it is a fine spell ; after all Cloud Break/Eagles are two spells that are shared by at least two factions and I'm ok with that, so I guess Lone Tower is fine.

Greed is another matter: I don't think I have ever picked that spell ever since Dwarves are out. Your idea looks interesting but we would lose the Balrog aspect. Plus low Theoden got an ability like the one you suggest.

[Odysseus]

Hmm yes. Thank you for answering.
Technically, the Balrog only affects gameplay negatively I would argue. I wouldn't see a problem if it were removed. While the lore aspect is interesting, the Balrog only appeared due to excessive mining in Khazad-Dum, which is a massive mine, not like the typical dwarven mine, but that aside, I only use it when I need quick cash and am desperate. I always try to use it on a unupgraded mine, and when I see that the Balrog appears, I quickly delete the mine before the Balrogs nicks it. I don't recall if that refunds some of the price. I might be mistaken. It's become sort of a habit haha.

[bookworm1138]

i got to use Greed to wipe out some enemies who were attacking one of my mines. Please don't change it.

[Adrigabbro]

That's not really the purpose of this spell though. For this reason I think your comment proves the contrary of your point : it needs to be changed because it is not used the way it should be.

[korner]

That's not really the purpose of this spell though. For this reason I think your comment proves the contrary of your point : it needs to be changed because it is not used the way it should be.

How do you know that this is not the purpose?

Isn´t it quite nice to have a "risky" spell in the spellbook which might give you extra ressources or destroy your own mine?
And using this spell against the enemy is even more interesting!
By the way: if you use that spell the way bookworm described, you always risk giving extra money to the enemy instead of destroying his army with the balrog!

I think that is a quite cool extra feature of that spell.

[Adrigabbro]

Well, it seems quite obvious ; at least I thought so. 
Take the example of Khazad-Dum: dwarves have mined so deeply (i.e. because  they wanted more gold) but they eventually awoke the balrog who destroyed everything.
Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I believe that's exactly what the team tried to do with that spell: you want extra money, but in doing so you're willing to take the risk to lose your mine.

It is way different- and I think I can also use the word contradictory- to what you are suggesting: trying to wreck enemy forces by taking the risk to giving them more money.

I'm sorry but I cannot agree with you.

[Skeeverboy]

When I'm not wrong you can use this Spell on the ressource buildings from your enemy. When it's the Balrog the res. building will destroy, when it's money you can take it before your enemy comes.

[Odysseus]

Oh really? Like an enemy dwarven mine or something else? That would be really funny and weird at the same time, though.

[CragLord]

I also didn't know this ability could be used on the resource buildings from enemy. Only if enemy building is mine or in any case? If it is in any case that should be changed, simply it is not lore friendly or logical in any term.

I think we should ask moderator to rename this topic to "Greed power change" or something similar, because Lone Tower is totally out of discussion now. This is just my opinion.

I expressed my opinion about this matter some time ago, I think Balrog should stay, it is really nice power in my opinion (in lore and usage). Just what I really don't like is way we get that money. Chests are too risky, way in which we get that money is risky at first place, why then there should exist possibility of stealing those resources?  Simply I am only for change of instant getting those resources instead we must collect them. Spell is risky enough with out that in first place if we look on it as resource gain power in some way... Simply keep Balrog Effect and disable possibility of stealing that resources which are created in very hard way.

Regards,
CragLord

[Adrigabbro]

Done. I also closed the poll which has become irrelevant.

[™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™]

What if instead of a balrog, 10-40  goblin creeps come out of the mine?                            That way you have a shot at saving your mine if it summons something besides gold           

[Adrigabbro]

Hey, that's a good idea!
Why not go further? Something like four options:
- Instant 1500 gold (10% chance)
- Instant 750 gold (40% chance)
- Goblins (40% chance)
- Balrog (10% chance)

[Odysseus]

That's actually a pretty decent idea! I like the iteration.
Although, I'd like to know what the idea behind this ability is from the balancers, so that we can perhaps adjust it along those lines. Personally, I would tweak the values so that it is a bit more likely to get resources instead of the creeps and the balrog instead of an equal chance, since it is a level 3 power after all, it needs to be somewhat more certain of rewarding the player.

I personally dislike abilities based on luck and randomness in competitive play, but I guess Edain is not the most competitive mod out there. Prove me wrong, will you !

[Walküre]

Hey, that's a good idea!
Why not go further? Something like four options:
- Instant 1500 gold (10% chance)
- Instant 750 gold (40% chance)
- Goblins (40% chance)
- Balrog (10% chance)

As I'm not primarily a Balance Tester, I can't really express something definitive about each value proposed.
But, conceptually, I totally support the idea 

Goblins could definitely represent a wise negative effect in the middle, between being rewarded with the treasures that the Dwarves found and facing directly the Bane of Durin.
Not to mention that it would be very lore accurate and particularly significant, an overview of what this race has always had to deal with along its History.

[Melkor Bauglir]

To be honest: I hate the current design of this power (RNG, without so many RNG-events that it becomes manageable by an average result...) and really hope it will get reworked and changed into something reliable. Which of course does not mean, it shouldn't possess a risk -I love the idea of "Greed" to have the opportunity of backfiring, but this complete, uncontrollable randomness is just bad, IMO!

This also means that you technically can't balance this spell, in a certain way: It is either a straight loss or a straight win. You can make both version appropriately strong and equal the risk and reward, but real balance is just not possible. Adrigabbro's ideas seem fine, though.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

The first problem in my opinion is the "power" of the spell. There are two sides to this, really. First of all, the internal competition in the dwarven spellbook is very strong. Beorn is a beast capable of deciding smaller fights on his own, and everybody knows that towers are awesome. Greed, on the other hand, gives you money. Sure, more money is always great, but the dwarves don't profit from an income boost any more than other factions. You could even argue that most of them have some way of using 1500 extra cash better (Mordor is very dependant on heroes, Gondor has more buildplots to get additional economy buildings, Loriens base building is very expensive), the obvious example being Isengard. They have the devastation(?) spell that looks quite similar, but is in my opinion stronger just because of working under different circumstances. Devastation allows Isengard to buy scouts and wildmen as much as possible, because it can pay for teching up by itself. You get something like 1500+ resources, that's enough for getting a second uruk pit and teching up in the first one. And tadaa, you suddenly have two buildings you can spam uruks with.
Tl;dr^^: The dwarves can usually get better use out of their great combat spells than economy spells.

That doesn't mean that it is worthless, though. It is just a bit more niche than the others. Which leads me to the other problem I have with greed: Three points for a somewhat decent chance at getting 1000 resources? No, thanks. So the first, most important step has to be increasing the reward part of the risk-reward-system^^
Adrigabbro's idea seems fine to me, but I would change the values a bit. Something like 50%-25%-15%-10%. 75% chance of success in total is still not that great, and the possibility of RNG not working in your favor is very real. Wasting three spellpoints and getting nothing for it is huge. Maybe the summoned goblins could drop increased exp/spellpoints, so at least you get something for killing them. You could probably even increase the money you get, but the important thing is that the overall income is worth the three spellpoints.
At the moment, it is not.

[CragLord]

Hey, that's a good idea!
Why not go further? Something like four options:
- Instant 1500 gold (10% chance)
- Instant 750 gold (40% chance)
- Goblins (40% chance)
- Balrog (10% chance)

I would also say, that this is nice way of decrease probability of Balrog pop up. I support this also, it is lore friendly and it represent simple change I guess.

Ea's Cousin, so what do you suggest as final proposal, decrease of power points for this power or same 3 (four in sum) point for this power and increasing of money on higher value than 1500? You are beta tester and I presume experienced one, so lets be precise with proposal, what is in your opinion the best change?

[Odysseus]

I agree with what has been said. Personally, as long as the RNG is removed, I am fine with whatever can be come up with. However, I do think that the gold chests mechanic should be kept, simply because it fits the Dwarves and their greed for gold and other minerals and metals from my point of view.

That said, I think it is a bit difficult to compare it to Devastation, since Isengard is generally less cost-effective in early game and those boosts in economy are invaluable. Greed, on the other hand, is kind of harsh compared to it even though it is from the same spell level and can thus have similar timing. The enemy can still steal the resources and even worse, a Balrog can nick your mine and you get absolutely nothing, except a waste of a mine and a 3 PP spell. I know that Dwarves have different faction dynamics and mechanics, but why not simply make the spell stable with a small buff and a few tweaks? I know lore accuracy is important, but in this case, I feel that gameplay is most definetely suffering from that Balrog.

Proposal: When succesful, you approximately receive 1000-1200 resources. Furthermore, the Balrog is removed completely and instead, there is a chance that two or three hordes of Goblins can potentially pop out (aiming at 20-25%) and attack your mine. If you manage to kill all the goblins, you get half of the resources (so 600ish) and Exp from killing the goblins. Something along those lines I think this is more managable.

Thoughts?

[™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™]

I agree with what has been said. Personally, as long as the RNG is removed, I am fine with whatever can be come up with. However, I do think that the gold chests mechanic should be kept, simply because it fits the Dwarves and their greed for gold and other minerals and metals from my point of view.

That said, I think it is a bit difficult to compare it to Devastation, since Isengard is generally less cost-effective in early game and those boosts in economy are invaluable. Greed, on the other hand, is kind of harsh compared to it even though it is from the same spell level and can thus have similar timing. The enemy can still steal the resources and even worse, a Balrog can nick your mine and you get absolutely nothing, except a waste of a mine and a 3 PP spell. I know that Dwarves have different faction dynamics and mechanics, but why not simply make the spell stable with a small buff and a few tweaks? I know lore accuracy is important, but in this case, I feel that gameplay is most definetely suffering from that Balrog.

Proposal: When succesful, you approximately receive 1000-1200 resources. Furthermore, the Balrog is removed completely and instead, there is a chance that two or three hordes of Goblins can potentially pop out (aiming at 20-25%) and attack your mine. If you manage to kill all the goblins, you get half of the resources (so 600ish) and Exp from killing the goblins. Something along those lines I think this is more managable.

Thoughts?

I agree                                                                                                                                 Though, if you get goblins, maybe you could only get exp (But more exp) .
                         
That way it is a double purpose power.                                                                             
You could get money or level up a hero (Or a battalion)                                                         It also keeps some of the lore, but instead turns it into a more positive outcome                    

[Adrigabbro]

Of course the important point in my post was the idea, not the figures. I also agree with all of you guys: the potential income must outweigh the risks.

[Elite KryPtik]

I haven't read the majority of the posts here, but I just want to jump in and state simple fact. In a competitive match, NOBODY is going to use this power in its current form, or as long as there is a random aspect to it. It simply is not worth it. You can get an ability of similar strength from Bilbo very easily if you are Ered Luin, because it does not take him long to level up at all. Even if I have been pushed all the way back into my base and I am desperately scrounging for money, I would rather have towers or Beorn, because I KNOW what they are going to do every single time. The only time I have ever used this is after I had literally bought every single other power in the game, and even then I only used it once on an unupgraded mineshaft, which immediately proceeded to blow up. The only way this would be worth it in its current form is if it spawned like 2k gold and was only 1 power point. I am rather more in favor of removing the random factor completely and reducing the amount of gold you get, maybe to like 500.

[Odysseus]

Pretty much. I hope it will be changed accordingly. Any response on this matter from the team would be lovely.