Greed power change

[Adrigabbro]

I'm starting a thread about dwarven spells "Greed" and "Lone Tower" which I think are not right at the moment. As I've already said, I think the former is just not fun at all and the latter doesn't fit in any way.


~> Greed. I propose two alternatives:

- Decrease the amout of gold dropped but increase the chance of having money. Additionaly, in case of bad luck, the selected mine is no longer destroyed but looses half HP. It could go with a design change: replace the Balrog by something less laggy and flashy (Indeed, there is only one Durin's Bane and as far as I know, there is no reason for a Balrog to pop under the Shire )

- The selected mine gives gold but looses permanently 50% armor.
I like this one better because it doesn't depend on luck and the more you use this spell (i.e. the deeper you dig ), the weaker the mine is. I also assume that the team is not really fond of the luck system as I remember them saying that BFME2 random system was weird, and in the last patch they got rid of luck in the Travel Camp system.


~> Lone Tower. This spell is not unique and is more suitable with Gondor. I propose to get rid of it. Two ideas of a replacement spell:

- Summons one battalion of Ramriders.

- Equips the selected battalion with Forged Blades (fairly long cooldwon for balance concern)

Once again I prefer the second option as I'm not fond of Ramriders and I think the latter is particulary adequate. Indeed, it is stated in the Silmarillion that even the Noldor, including Feanor's sons themselves, sought dwarven skill to get weapons.


All of this is up to debate of course, and I'd like to know what you think. 

EDIT: added poll.

[Tienety]

I agree these two spells need a changes. Personally, I don't like luck systems. 
I like this idea for Greed spell: 

- The selected mine gives gold but looses permanently 50% armor.
I like this one better because it doesn't depend on luck and the more you use this spell (i.e. the deeper you dig ), the weaker the mine is. I also assume that the team is not really fond of the luck system as I remember them saying that BFME2 random system was weird, and in the last patch they got rid of luck in the Travel Camp system.

Lone Tower is not is unique but this spell is very useful. 

- Summons one battalion of Ramriders.

- Equips the selected battalion with Forged Blades (fairly long cooldwon for balance concern)

I think that the ram riders are more fit for Dain on level 10. 
if I know, Gamling had forged blades but this spell has been removed because balance problem.

[CragLord]

Well, there is different opinions among different persons, agree there must be some change.
First I want to say that I also don't like luck system. Didn't like that luck system with Veterans, team change it thx to the God, also don't like situation when Balrog destroys mine and devastates economy. This makes harder to play strategy game like this one. Also I agree about Lore aspects with you (as you said Balrog comes beneth Shire map), but I have really found this idea about Balrog briliant. Team used that Lore information and implemented it on unique way, afterall this is really important Lore information, it is important piece of Dwarven History, and I really like how team implement this in game(like idea).
I am not for complete removing of mine luck sistem, I am only for decresing (big reduction) chanse of situation when Balrog jumps out (This implementation as I said above should stay because of Lore, it's important part of history).  Decrease is justified from perspective there is only one Durin's Bane and he isn't lineger beneath surface of every map.
Also this idea supplements your thought about "Decreasing the amout of gold dropped but increasing the chance of having money."

About Lone Towers, we disagree completely.
Lone towers should stay part of Dwarven Powers Meni in my opinion. Why?
Simply because I have found that structure important part of deffensive mehanisam (I really like to secure  mine/lumer mill with few of those towers, similar situation with Gondor, I really have found those towers useful.)

About Ram idea, I am with Tienety, we are suggesting that Ram riders should be implemented somehow in Dain's lvl 10 summon power.

[LordDainIronfoot]

The tower is pretty suitable for Dwarves as well as Gondor even more for Dwarves! :)It is a nice low prive Spell!Unlike the Citadel the Tower is very usefull!
About the Greed Spell well she does need some change in the mechanism at least!

[Gandalf The Gray]

i think the greed think its ok and lore friendly who knows what is buried beneath the shire from the first age but i agree on the lone tower its not unique

[helloa2134]

I actually like the lone tower ability.  They are defensive abilities for the two most defensive factions so it is appropriate for Gondor and Dwarves.

Greed needs a rework, because right now it is not a useful ability, because the reward does not justify the risk.

[Gandalf The Gray]

in the beginning i was thinking balrog should destroy some buildings around him and you should fight him  stop 

[Adrigabbro]

Well, the poll and the comments seem pretty clear: Lone Tower is fine.

CragLord: It would also be a good change for sure.

[CragLord]

And maybe it will be nice to change way of getting gold in "Greed" power. Animation when four treasure chests pop out after small earthquake on that mine is nice, but that implementation always require  some units near mine or already tunneled units in that mine  in order to get that chests and gold. In other words, this isn't instant money (Like we have with Isenguard trees devastation power), you must collect those chests. And there is also possibility that enemy collects that chests of gold ( I know, smart person will never use this power on mine where exist possibility of stealing chests, but as I said possibility exist in general), as it's not enough possibility of Balrog poping out. In that way of thinking, "Greed" as support power is very hard way of getting bonus resourses. Because of that  maybe is better that bonus gold  is received instantly. Animation could stay same only after treasure pops out,it should stay there for 1-2 sec and after that it should disappear (Like when it's collected by units, and on that mine number of bonus gold pops up) and player gets gold. If this isn't possible, than maybe to change animation, after greed is used on mine, there will be small earthquake on that mine (like now in game) and after that there won't be summoning of chests. Insted Mine glows for 1-2 sec and after that number of bonus gold pops out (on selected mine) and player gets his bonus resources.
What do you think about this idea?

[Gandalf The Gray]

And maybe it will be nice to change way of getting gold in "Greed" power. Animation when four treasure chests pop out after small earthquake on that mine is nice, but that implementation always require  some units near mine or already tunneled units in that mine  in order to get that chests and gold. In other words, this isn't instant money (Like we have with Isenguard trees devastation power), you must collect those chests. And there is also possibility that enemy collects that chests of gold ( I know, smart person will never use this power on mine where exist possibility of stealing chests, but as I said possibility exist in general), as it's not enough possibility of Balrog poping out. In that way of thinking, "Greed" as support power is very hard way of getting bonus resourses. Because of that I  maybe is better that bonus gold  is received instantly. Animation could stay same only after treasure pops out,it should stay there for 1-2 sec and after that it should disappear (Like when it's collected by units, and on that mine number of bonus gold pops up) and player gets gold. If this isn't possible, than maybe to change animation, after greed is used on mine, there will be small earthquake on that mine (like now in game) and after that there won't be summoning of chests. Insted Mine glows for 1-2 sec and after that number of bonus gold pops out (on selected mine) and player gets his bonus resources.
What do you think about this idea?

i think its a good idea

[Adrigabbro]

Ye, it would be an interesting quality of life change. The current system brings more frustration than anything. ^^

[deathbirdw]

okay dont know the spells name but its the one where u get money or the balrog. i never use it because the risk is too high for 1000 and just heard people on moddb complaining about it. why not make it give more gold or (this is my real suggestion) a second layer of 'mithril' armour to the troops that collect each chest. in 3.8 the ability to upgrade them with a second layer of armour was available so it could be added back via this spell.

reasons for this: it would make the risk of the balrog more worth while,  it would mimic the reason the balrog was summoned in book (mithril), it would bring back an old upgrade which i liked
                     

[CragLord]

Hello mate,

Everything realated to this matter you should post here: Link
It is topic in which we some time ago discussed about greed power.
There is no need to open new thread about this.
I presume our moderator will close this topic, so I suggest you that proposals about Greed power post on topic I pointed to you.

P.S. I know that Dwarven board is huge and there is a lot of topics, but next time just try to find corresponding topic before you decide to open new one. Because board is big, it is likely that there is already opened topic which corresponds suggestion. It is minor thing and it keeps forum tidy and makes life of our moderators easier.

Kind Regards,
CragLord

[Walküre]

Problem solved.
As you can see, hoho96 merged the two threads in only one 

[Odysseus]

1. About the Lone Tower: Personally, I feel that the Lone Tower is always useful (in a specific transitional period in the game, mind you) no matter which faction would theoretically make use of it. A tower can serve as a damage sponge or a distraction and also do some decent damage especially from early to mid game. I would agree with you if you would argue that they would lose some of their charm when upgrades and multiple heroes start hitting the field.

My suggestion: I don't know if it is technically possible to do this, but let's say you upgrade your towers via the Stone Mason with the forged blades upgrades, would it perhaps be possible to upgrade it accordingly with that upgrade and also grant it forged blades so that the tower is more effective in late game. Just wondering, but somewhere deep in my thoughts, I remember vanilla BFME II having this, no? Or perhaps some other mod hmm. Anyway, off-topic, my apologies.

2. The Greed Spell: This spell could perhaps use a bit of tweaking, yes. In competitive play, the ''RNG'' factor is never favoured since it cannot be controlled and personal skill cannot be tied to the ability and I agree with you in this case .

My suggestion: I'd be willing to decrease the resources it grants and in exchange, make it consistent. Another potential factor to balance it out would be to slightly decrease the armour of the mine, after the ability has been used, to weigh it out a little.

Just some ideas. I'd appreciate it if you would tell me what you think about them and my reasoning as well.

Kind regards.