Brief Isengard Suggestions

[OakenShield224]

Couple of small suggestions:
 - Rename Saruman's Wormtongue ability to something that isn't based on Wormtongue. He didn't need Grima to influence the mind of others and his own voice was far more powerful than a single traitor to Rohan. Something like Voice of Curunir, Voice of Saruman, Curunir's Skill, Subtle Speech etc. Just something that emphasises that it is Saruman doing the convincing and not Grima.
 - When Lurtz uses The Hunt on a target hero, could the hero have some sort of FX around them to keep track of who it was used on and when the effect has run out (also so that the enemy player can now their hero has been affected as well).

[Gandalf7000]

Couple of small suggestions:
 - Rename Saruman's Wormtongue ability to something that isn't based on Wormtongue. He didn't need Grima to influence the mind of others and his own voice was far more powerful than a single traitor to Rohan. Something like Voice of Curunir, Voice of Saruman, Curunir's Skill, Subtle Speech etc. Just something that emphasises that it is Saruman doing the convincing and not Grima.
 - When Lurtz uses The Hunt on a target hero, could the hero have some sort of FX around them to keep track of who it was used on and when the effect has run out (also so that the enemy player can now their hero has been affected as well).

I strongly support the idea about Saruman, as i have proposed similar change to his ability names in different thread i think!

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

Agreed.

[Le Sournois]

I think mine Berserkers are such a good idea for Isengard. I would love to see them integrated also more in defensive gameplay.

I like a lot the concept of them going to encounter the ennemy who come to their base and suicide themselves to protect the buildings of Isengard. That is so cool.

That doesn't work a lot though because building a strong army with upgrade is always easier (and sometimes a bit boring)

My suggestion is this one :

-Allowing Isengard player to get Mine Berserkers from level 2 Siegework instead of 3

-Reducing the stats of Uruk units for balance purpose

-As soon as Uruks get near enough from an explosion caused by a Mine Berserker, they would get enhanced by it and have better stats for 1 minute at least

-An explosive mine could have the same effect

-Standard Berserkers could be enhanced even more significantly by a near explosion than other units

I hope that would be iconic enough

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

I'm open to some tweaks to Mine Berserkers, but your suggestion feels off to me. They are blowing themselves up, that is by design an offensive ability. In addition to that, Uruk-Hai are good the way they are now and should be and feel more powerful than Gondor soldiers, so reducing their base stats is a no.

If we were to add something to Mine Berserkers, I would look at something like a temporary debuff or disabling target structures. I can also see moving them to level two.

[Le Sournois]

Yes, I understand. It was a bit too much original to be a good idea.

Mine Berserkers are the funniest feature of Isengard in my opinion, and sometimes I used them defensively to clear up some of the enemy frontline, it is funny but unrealistic.

[Le Sournois]

Hello,

Though the concept of Orthanc Guards I like a lot, I have the impression it could be even cooler.

Their base ability, when debugged, will be nice, but a bit overpowered I guess :
-"As long as Saruman is garrisoned in the citadel, the Guards deal +50% damage and an additional +50% damage against units with heavy armor."

The idea is we could let Saruman garrissoned in his citadel, have 3 Orthanc Guards, and sometimes, the physical use of Saruman in the field would lose attractivity and you would'nt have enough incentive to make Saruman get experience.

Why then not keeping the 50 % damage effect from the start as it is, but adding the additional effect against heavy armor only when Saruman gets to level 10 and is garissoned in his citadel ?

That would push the player to make good use of hit and run tactics with Saruman, which is I guess the point of that update, and that would make it even more interesting in my opinion.

[The_Necromancer0]

I'm not sure if I agree with the root scenario here. No matter how cool Orthanc Guards are I don't think they will ever been enough of an incentive to not use the 3k magic beat stick you purchased.

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

What Necro said. The ability switch for the Orthanc Guards is meant to pay hommage to Saruman's interaction with the Wizard Tower. Saruman will usually only be stationed in your base when you are in a defensive position and under attack, so the additional buffs to his guards in this scenario make sense.

[Le Sournois]

What about also making Saruman's first ability, his wizard blast have a separate cooldown for when he is in his wizard tower and when he is in the battlefield ?

I feel like this not really the same ability, they work in a quite different manner, and it would make interaction with the tower more valuable, using it in the tower, then in the battlefield quickly after it.

It is not in question for his others abilities, except maybe is level 10, but I feel like that would even more improve Saruman's gameplay.

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

I don't really agree here, for two simple reasons:

• Does his speech ability not also work very differently from the citadel? Where do you draw the line between "different enough" and "too similar"?
• Wizard Blast being the only ability that does not share cooldowns is extremely un-intuitive, which shouldn't be the case in this already rather complex hero mechanic.

Could your hit-and-run idea work? Yes, certainly. But it's not worth the downside of breaking up his interaction with the citadel for Saruman's first and least special ability.

[Le Sournois]

The comparison with his speech ability doesn't really work because for speech, there is an interesting choice in terms of gameplay : experience or recruitment speed, this choice make it relevant to wait for an entire cooldown before getting it again.

His level 7 in the tower is a reward for getting Wizard Tower soon and does not need really a separate cooldown, otherwise Saruman might be too powerful.

Whereas with Wizard blast it is pure technical damage ability which is hard to cast wall from his wizard tower, and I then guess, not that often used.

Also, it would improve the interaction with Orthanc Guards, which means that Saruman would be more incited even in defensive gameplay to come out of his citadel, even if Orthanc Guards are already recruited, because he could use double wizard blast, one less strong, the other more intuitive and powerful.

That would incite a good technical gameplay and adaptation to the situation according to what Orthanc Guards are doing, do they need the extra leadership ? and where a Wizard blast would be needed, are the Orthanc guards can do without leadership for a time ?

This scene in the Two Towers where Quickbeam go after Saruman who succeed very shortly in getting back to his citadel before being caught, such scenes would happen more with this mechanic.

For his level 10, it just a reward for getting Saruman level 10 when you do not need to for using his last ability on the wizard tower, a double shoot also make some sense in it.

For the complexity, I don't agree though I don't pretend to know how hard is it to implement all this, but if you say complexity for the player to understand it, there are a lot of mechanics in Edain that are not completely explained and however work well.

I don't think you would lose everybody in making such a gameplay, it would not even be need an explanation, in the Wizard tower description, it could be read simply "Saruman can use his abilities when he is placed on his Citadel, he can use all his ability without constraint of level when the Wizard tower is built" at that would be enough in my opinion.

Also, The Defiler has a mechanic that works that way, if he is mounted or dismounted, his rank 2 ability is different and has a separate cooldown though it is not clearly explained in his description.

[The_Necromancer0]

Without getting into the gameplay perspective, this change doesn't make sense from the conceptual point of view to me. The concept of being able to put Saruman in the tower is that the tower amplifies his abilities.

If Wizard Blast is hard to cast from the tower then let's make it easier first, then consider other avenues. What do you find hard to use about the current ability? Could we not create an interesting choice with Wizard Blast in the same way there's an interesting choice with Power of Speech without changing the concept?

[Le Sournois]

You have to put the spell in a precise location and wait for the ennemy to come precisely in that spot, often, it works bad and get poor quantity of damage.

But with the new Orthanc Guards, having more interactions and more situational choices such as "should I keep him in Orthanc, should I send him in the battlefield just to do a small Wizard Blast" is what I think about when I make this suggestion.

Don't mistaken me, the gameplay is already nice with the update with the Orthanc Guards, but by making separate cooldown for Wizard Blast, maybe by changing the name of the spell in the Wizard Tower "Blast of sorcery" or something like that,
it would make it even better. I don't remember but Saruman the Cursed or the Blessed (The Cursed I think) has an ability he can have only in the Wizard Tower, and not in the field, that would be the same principle, just changing the ability name for when he is in his Wizard Tower.

That way, it is not a good idea in my opinion to make spells overpowered in the Wizard Tower (his level 7 Wormtongue conversion appears better in the field than in the tower so I'm not sure Wizard Tower really amplify his abilities as you said except of course his level 10). Rather, it seems interesting to make it appealing for Saruman even in defense to get out of his tower for short times, this is what he did when the Ents attacked, where he could have been captured by Quickbeam.

[Le Sournois]

Sorry to double post,

I just realized that the cooldown reduction of spells by the Orthanc Guards for Saruman works only in the field and not in the Citadel which by default has also a longer cooldown, I didn't get it at first glance but that way coming in the field ou of the citadel in defense is appealing to get a far shorter cooldown for spells.

So maybe, this way, yes, maybe it's already perfect.
Sorry, I underestimated your power