Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?

[NetoD20]

There is a slight difference between adding some things that are not mentioned in a book and adding something which the books explicitly says does not exist in that world! (dwarves riding animals)

By that argument Dáin shouldn't have his boar in the mod.

[Fredius]

I don´t see the flaw:
Dwarves have to get to the mountain as quick as possible. Therefore they carry only light armour and weapon. If they´d carry ballistas and stuff like in the movie, they´d simply come too late.
And if dwarves would have mounts, they would have used them - but they simply don´t have them. Not a flaw in my opinion.

Well if you think that the Dwarves were lightly armoured then I can only say that you are very wrong. They were heavily armored even by Dwarven standards (thanks to KingDainIronfoot for this information!). Which means a big shield wouldn't make much of a difference.

So basically you're saying that the Dwarves came to the battle just to lose it? Can you please explain to me in what way they would have won the battle with the weaponry they carried? That is the flaw in the book mate.

There is a slight difference between adding some things that are not mentioned in a book and adding something which the books explicitly says does not exist in that world! (dwarves riding animals)

By that argument Dáin shouldn't have his boar in the mod.

And let's not forget the elk riders .

[korner]

There is a slight difference between adding some things that are not mentioned in a book and adding something which the books explicitly says does not exist in that world! (dwarves riding animals)

By that argument Dáin shouldn't have his boar in the mod.

Correct.

Lorewise he shouldn´t have it. But Dain´s boar was one of the very few things that nearly everyone liked about that movie, so the team implemented it.

Furthermore you could also argue that it´s a difference between some few dwarves having mounts (at least Thorins company uses the ponies, even if they don´t like them) and equipping an army with mounts.
Breeding and taming herds of animals over generations is something different then taming one specific boar...
But still: lorewise it shouldn´t be in the mod.

Well if you think that the Dwarves were lightly armoured then I can only say that you are very wrong. They were heavily armored even by Dwarven standards (thanks to KingDainIronfoot for this information!). Which means a big shield wouldn't make much of a difference.

So basically you're saying that the Dwarves came to the battle just to lose it? Can you please explain to me in what way they would have won the battle with the weaponry they carried? That is the flaw in the book mate.

???

Sorry, but now I understand nothing anymore...

First you complain, that dwarves are too light armored/ euipped to survive an elven rain of arrows.
Then you say they wear heavy armour and they don´t have need for bigger shields and armour (to survive the elven rain of arrows).
And then you say they are not properly equipped to win the battle?

So - what is your position now? Are they fit for battle or not?

[NetoD20]

So basically you're saying that the Dwarves came to the battle just to lose it? Can you please explain to me in what way they would have won the battle with the weaponry they carried? That is the flaw in the book mate.

Ok, hold on there a second, @Fredius. I wouldn't say it's a flaw in the book. Remember The Hobbit is a children's book, if you analyze it from a war historian's perpective of course it will not make sense. But it's a fairy tale it doesn't have to make sense, at least not where milititaristic specificities are concerned. And that's fine.

That doesn't mean I think that these book elements should be taken in consideration when creating a game. Remember the dwarves set out from Bag End unarmored and carrying only daggers, yet both Peter Jackson and the Team ignored that in their respective creations, and that is also fine.

And, IHMO, all this makes it also fine to ignore the fact that dwarves are stated to not use mounts, and simply give them Ram Riders, and a boar in the case of Dáin.

[Fredius]

So basically you're saying that the Dwarves came to the battle just to lose it? Can you please explain to me in what way they would have won the battle with the weaponry they carried? That is the flaw in the book mate.

Ok, hold on there a second, @Fredius. I wouldn't say it's a flaw in the book. Remember The Hobbit is a children's book, if you analyze it from a war historian's perpective of course it will not make sense. But it's a fairy tale it doesn't have to make sense, at least not where milititaristic specificities are concerned. And that's fine.

That doesn't mean I think that these book elements should be taken in consideration when creating a game. Remember the dwarves set out from Bag End unarmored and carrying only daggers, yet both Peter Jackson and the Team ignored that in their respective creations, and that is also fine.

And, IHMO, all this makes it also fine to ignore the fact that dwarves are stated to not use mounts, and simply give them Ram Riders, and a boar in the case of Dáin.

Yes that's why I stated that I look a lot on the realistic part, but even if it's a childrens book it doesn't mean one should ignore certain important elements of warfare. And perhaps the book is meant for children, the game BFME is not .

Well if you think that the Dwarves were lightly armoured then I can only say that you are very wrong. They were heavily armored even by Dwarven standards (thanks to KingDainIronfoot for this information!). Which means a big shield wouldn't make much of a difference.

So basically you're saying that the Dwarves came to the battle just to lose it? Can you please explain to me in what way they would have won the battle with the weaponry they carried? That is the flaw in the book mate.

???

Sorry, but now I understand nothing anymore...

First you complain, that dwarves are too light armored/ euipped to survive an elven rain of arrows.
Then you say they wear heavy armour and they don´t have need for bigger shields and armour (to survive the elven rain of arrows).
And then you say they are not properly equipped to win the battle?

So - what is your position now? Are they fit for battle or not?

I said they are too lightly ARMED, meaning weapons and shields. Armoured is the armour they wear, and even if the armour is heavy the Elven arrows would still deal colossal damage to the Dwarves, since the Elven arrows would penetrate the Dwarven armor. Even so please read everything carefully man; the reason I mentioned the heavy armor was that it doesn't make any difference to how fast they would have arrived on the battlefield, because you stated that the reason they wore light armour (which they didn't) was that they had to move quickly to aid Thorin.

And where exactly did I state that the Dwarves DON'T need the big shields, when I'm actually explaining the whole time that they NEED them? If it's all too much to read, I will summarize it in a couple of easy sentences that even you should understand:

In the books the Dwarves are not well equipped, in the movies they are perfectly equipped.

[NetoD20]

And perhaps the book is meant for children, the game BFME is not .

Yes, I know, that's completely part of my point in my second paragraph.

[Fredius]

And perhaps the book is meant for children, the game BFME is not .

Yes, I know, that's completely part of my point in my second paragraph.

Ah excuse me I misread that part!

[korner]

I will summarize it in a couple of easy sentences that even you should understand

No need to get rude, man! Rudeness is my privileg in this forum, not yours  .


Back to topic:

 

And where exactly did I state that the Dwarves DON'T need the big shields,

In your last posting:
 

Which means a big shield wouldn't make much of a difference.

I understood you meant no difference in battle, you obviously meant no difference in carrying... such misunderstandings can happen, no need to get insulting!

All this argument started when you said:

They came with mattocks, and a short sword with a small buckler shield. Sorry but if the Dwarves only carried those arms against Elven archers, they would have been slaughtered within minutes.

My answer was that they had to carry light armour AND weapons, to arrive in time.
Ok so in fact they wore heavy armour. But still that´s less then carrying spears, big shields, BALLISTAS and such things.
Remember Gimli hunting the Uruks in HdR2? Running with heavy armour... but no shield.

AND:
My argument always was: IF the dwarves had mounts, they would have used them to get to the mountain, as they were in a hurry.


By the way: I don´t remeber what all this has to do with the topic (ram riders)? I think we have been discussing off-topic for too long now.. I for myself go to sleep now, have a nice evening.

[Fredius]

No need to get rude, man! Rudeness is my privileg in this forum, not yours  .

And where exactly did I state that the Dwarves DON'T need the big shields,

In your last posting:
 

Which means a big shield wouldn't make much of a difference.

I understood you meant no difference in battle, you obviously meant no difference in carrying... such misunderstandings can happen, no need to get insulting!

Hahahha sorry for that, mistakes can happen .

All this argument started when you said:

They came with mattocks, and a short sword with a small buckler shield. Sorry but if the Dwarves only carried those arms against Elven archers, they would have been slaughtered within minutes.

My answer was that they had to carry light armour AND weapons, to arrive in time.
Ok so in fact they wore heavy armour. But still that´s less then carrying spears, big shields, BALLISTAS and such things.
Remember Gimli hunting the Uruks in HdR2? Running with heavy armour... but no shield.

AND:
My argument always was: IF the dwarves had mounts, they would have used them to get to the mountain, as they were in a hurry.

Gimli didn't really wear heavy armor. Heavy armor is what the soldiers of Erebor and the Iron Hills wore. Gimli only wore some chainmail with some leather clothing. But that isn't really important right now.

Actually the argument I started was about the fact that the Dwarves are not well equipped for battle, I personally don't care about the matter of speed that they needed to arrive on time. Again I'm saying that if they only were prepared in the way as was described in the book, they would have arrived on the battle only to lose it. Now that would be hilarious!

Now let me tell you something; you are damn right that Rams were not mentioned in the book. Dude I never said I disagree about that, I just agree with Peter Jackson that he added those Ram Riders. If you want to know why I am in favor of Ram Riders you can look it up on page number 2, cuz I'm not going to repeat everything . And no the Rams would have not made any difference in how fast they would arrive to the Lonely Mountain, since the main regiment of the army consisted of infantry and the Rams should adjust their speed to that of the infantry.