Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?

[Odysseus]

Maybe some new strategic and tactical possibilities? As far as I know, there is no unit in the Dwarven faction that would have the role of Ram Riders so it at the least avoids an overlap issue. I think they can be compared to somewhat cheaper cavalry like Rohirrim or Warg Riders.

[korner]

If there is any unit which does not fullfill his job (by being to weak, too slow, whatever), the consequence should be to rework and improve that unit, rather then introducing another unit which makes the battlewaggon obsolete.

Yes in first place, but there is also second option which could be also good in term of refreshing game with new stuff etc. If ET never add new units instead old one, we will never have this mod. So please, we will need better argument than that.

given that dwarves were never known as people who cultivate animals in high quantity, nor have they been known as great riders, this "evolution" wouldn´t take place among them.
So the battlewaggon is still more fitting then riders among dwarves.

And that is also your personal opinion, which could also be wrong.
For instance, what is pulling those wagons?

1. I am not against never adding any new unit to the game. I just think that dwarves should not have cavalry more then the battlewaggon.
Of course this is my own opinion, not the law, and anyone else is allowed to share or to dislike my opinion.

2. is there any hint in the books for dwarves cultivating animals? I cannot remember. They are always describes as walking, not riding (the dwarves dislike their ponies very much, when they leave from Bilbo!). Even Dains army who had to rush to the lonely mountain came on foot, not riding (in the books). Why would they do, if they are in a hurry and have mounts?
I may be wrong on this matter, so if you find any proof about the different, tell me.

If you´d like to make up a comparison to the Game of Thrones universe  :

- the dwarves are like the Ironislanders, which hate mounts and fight on foot (ok dwarves not using ships, but hey  )
- Rohan is like th Dothraki who live from their horses and are therefore the best cavalry faction
just a little excurse...

[CragLord]

You guys just say that Battle Wagons are to weak, this is the only argument you all have said.
Me an Korner say that they need a buff, so it fixed the problem. So you guys must say a new argument, why the ram riders must throw in.

Skeeverboy, it is weak and it need good improvement, also it is not argument in term of ram favour. I am speaking in general, wagon stays what it is. If you start with improving same, you will never get unit like battalion of cavalry units. Simply if you buff armor or anti pike armor of wagons so they could do basically everything then you have a hell of unit. Main idea here is to add rams maybe like knocking back units with good armor and small dps, so you can charge with them and wagons stays as support unit. That is my opinion...
I was never speaking here about rams like regular cavalry unit, that would be a bit strange. I would only like them for knock back effect, which fits them in natural attributes and maybe good armor so you can use them for knock back and destroying formation of enemies. Nothing more

1. I am not against never adding any new unit to the game. I just think that dwarves should not have cavalry more then the battlewaggon.
Of course this is my own opinion, not the law, and anyone else is allowed to share or to dislike my opinion.

I know I didn't write that you have said that, I have just give you general argument which concerns your previous comment and concerns this suggestion also. So I am just expecting from others to be precise, or discussion hasn't value in general.

2. is there any hint in the books for dwarves cultivating animals? I cannot remember. They are always describes as walking, not riding (the dwarves dislike their ponies very much, when they leave from Bilbo!). Even Dains army who had to rush to the lonely mountain came on foot, not riding (in the books). Why would they do, if they are in a hurry and have mounts?
I may be wrong on this matter, so if you find any proof about the different, tell me.

You are not wrong. There is no lore prof, or I also don't know.
But in it is also natural to presume this. Rams and Wild boars (maybe bears aslo) are animals which correspond to dwarven kind. Correspond in natural way of living, natural environment etc.
tight etc. And I have also post this yesterday: Link
So, yes, there would be some profs.

If you´d like to make up a comparison to the Game of Thrones universe  :
- the dwarves are like the Ironislanders, which hate mounts and fight on foot (ok dwarves not using ships, but hey  )
- Rohan is like th Dothraki who live from their horses and are therefore the best cavalry faction
just a little excurse...

I prefer to look this in Tolkien world. This is a bit rought comparison in my opinion. That is all.
And you compare pirates (in general, navy nation) with dwarves in term of cavalry...
And Dothrakies which are nomads with Rohan.
It is true about horses ofc.

P.S. Please people use spoiler buttons when you quote something, it makes discussion more legible.
Thank you.

[Walküre]

not everyone wants to play with them... please keep that in mind. Not only because of balance, some people just don´t like them. If you think they are awesome this is your opinion which not everybody has to share.

That's why there is a poll, here.
To test what the majority of the English Community really thinks about this concept.
And, so far, its majority has proven to like it 

However; guys don't forget that the usage of battlewagons has been reduced to nothing since people had a more developed way to ride on horses. There is always a reason why something has ceased to exist.

I am always delighted by your comments involving the lore of the World, the actual World we live in.
Extremely conceptual and explanatory, I would say 

[NetoD20]

You guys just say that Battle Wagons are to weak, this is the only argument you all have said.
Me an Korner say that they need a buff, so it fixed the problem. So you guys must say a new argument, why the ram riders must throw in.

I actually did say an argument. But when @korner quoted it, he cut it by half:

the problem is people want to play with Ram Riders

not everyone wants to play with them... please keep that in mind. Not only because of balance, some people just don´t like them. If you think they are awesome this is your opinion which not everybody has to share.

My argument then and more clarified now is: there are people whom want Ram Riders because they like their theme and and find them awesome (never meant to imply that everyone thinks that way) and there's people who don't want them because of balance. What I said was that balance shouldn't be too much harmed by the introduction of this unit because what we are discussing is their integration in a limited manner, and that people worried about balance could be exaggerating how much these units would tip the scales in the game. Meaning: it's not that big a deal for balance, guys (at least I think). My side argument also was that, even if it harms balance a little, balance and mechanics should be flexible, and not hinder a new unique addition to the game.

[korner]

not hinder a new unique addition to the game.

what is exactly "unique" about a hero who summons units? There´s plenty of that in the game.

The only uniqueness is dwarves not having cavalry - and that would be lost.

it's not that big a deal for balance, guys (at least I think)

Those ram riders either have to be strong (as lvl 10 summon), which will definitely affect balance and gameplay as everyone not using them would be acting stupidly.
Or they will be weak in order to not affect the balance. But given that - what would you need them for?

The only pro argument really counting for ram riders is that some people like them/ their design.
And as every "preferation" this is a matter different feelings.

At the end the team will decide if they like those riders and if they are willing to take the effort to implement a unit which is definitely not absolutely necessary for the dwarven gameplay (the dwarves already perform pretty good in the mod) or not.

If so many people absolutely love those riders and seem to die if they´d not be implemented - why don´t you make models/ skins and whatever is necessary and provide it to the modders? Maybe they´ll implement them, when they get your support.

[NetoD20]

what is exactly "unique" about a hero who summons units? There´s plenty of that in the game.

In the first place, I'm thinking of them as permanent units limited in number, as that is the winning option for the time, and what I voted for. Summon or regular, either way the Ram Riders are unique in theme, the only cavalry of rams, beast riders (be it worgs, elks, or a boar) add to the exotism of fantasy and are displays of the different cultures represented by each faction, it sets dwarves apart from other races, it gives them a trait related to the environment they live in. I like to think that uniquiness and amazing differences between factions that make Edain so great comes not only from wildly different gameplay and mechanics of each faction, but also from the different themes and motifs displayed. Second, Ram Riders would be the first and only cavalry with a kockback attack.

Those ram riders either have to be strong (as lvl 10 summon), which will definitely affect balance and gameplay as everyone not using them would be acting stupidly.
Or they will be weak in order to not affect the balance. But given that - what would you need them for?

You would need them in late game as an alternative to Battle Wagons, which are too weak. You could then say "well, just make Battle Wagons stronger!" as it has already being pointed out. But introducing Ram Riders is a better solution, because that would not only solve the wagon problem but also the popular demand for Ram Riders. Only strengthening Battle Wagons, on the other hand, would make them OP, because they already cause area damage and support units. So I believe it would be good to leave Battle Wagons the weak ""cavalry"" that they are and regale them most to support roles and create RRs as a elite late game cavalry that can properly take on the job decently.

[korner]

ok elite cavalry...

are we still talking about implementing them for Iron Hills only, or for every dwarven faction?
If only Iron Hills: What would the other 2 dwarven realms get instead of the ram-riders?

[Fredius]

I am always delighted by your comments involving the lore of the World, the actual World we live in.
Extremely conceptual and explanatory, I would say 

Thanks man, I appreciate it .

2. is there any hint in the books for dwarves cultivating animals? I cannot remember. They are always describes as walking, not riding (the dwarves dislike their ponies very much, when they leave from Bilbo!). Even Dains army who had to rush to the lonely mountain came on foot, not riding (in the books). Why would they do, if they are in a hurry and have mounts?
I may be wrong on this matter, so if you find any proof about the different, tell me.

Alright to most arguments I already gave an answer, so I'm not going to repeat them; but this argument I will give my full attention. First of all, Tolkien was a genius by making this excellent story; but military-wise he is pretty much an amateur to me. I'm sooo glad that Peter Jackson didn't follow the books on that matter. Do you know how the Dwarves were equipped in the Battle of the Five Armies in the book?
They came with mattocks, and a short sword with a small buckler shield. Sorry but if the Dwarves only carried those arms against Elven archers, they would have been slaughtered within minutes. They litteraly had nothing to defend themselves with, while they actually had the time to prepare themselves for the battle??

In the movies you can see that they were really prepared for battling Elves. Big shields with which they can form shieldwalls and testudo formations, cavalry and Ballistas; all of these factors are the perfect counter against superior archers. What I'm saying is that even great writers like Tolkien have flaws; and in his case he is flawed on the military aspect. So please don't use the books as a reason for military issues; they are pretty much unrealistic.

[korner]

So please don't use the books as a reason for military issues;

I don´t.

Just read my comment that you quoted carefully:
I´m talking about dwarves not being known as farmers. Taming and cultivating animals as mounts needs a lot of time and work, which the dwarves (at least in my mind) rather spend on mining or forging.


Edit:

Relating to your arguent, that dwarves were in the book not properly equipped to fight elves:
I they´d carried all that weapons they have in the movies, they´d simply arrived on the battlefield some days too late. Is that clever?
They have to move very quick, therefore they carry only light armor and weapons. Nothing unlogic or unrealistic about that...

[Fredius]

As far as I know you stated in that quote:

They are always describes as walking, not riding (the dwarves dislike their ponies very much, when they leave from Bilbo!). Even Dains army who had to rush to the lonely mountain came on foot, not riding (in the books). Why would they do, if they are in a hurry and have mounts?

This seems to me like a military issue. You're basically saying that they walked on foot to the battlefield because Dwarves don't use mounts? You're absolutely right about that; in the books it is stated that Dwarves don't use any kind of mounts, because they don't like riding on animals. But what I'm saying in response to you is that one doesn't need to follow the books on every single point, especially military-wise.

Edit:

Relating to your arguent, that dwarves were in the book not properly equipped to fight elves:
I they´d carried all that weapons they have in the movies, they´d simply arrived on the battlefield some days too late. Is that clever?
They have to move very quick, therefore they carry only light armor and weapons. Nothing unlogic or unrealistic about that...

Uhm have you read the rest of my argument? It is indeed true that armies move faster when lightly equipped but the fact still remains that the Dwarves would have been annihilated if they only carried those arms; that's my whole point. You really think that those small buckler shields would have stopped a barage of arrows? I would like to hear your answer to that question. Carefull preparation is the key to victory; not just rushed mobilization of your army like in the books.

[korner]

There is a slight difference between adding some things that are not mentioned in a book and adding something which the books explicitly says does not exist in that world! (dwarves riding animals)
Following your argumentation one could argue that dwarves should get tanks, as Tolkien simply didn´t understand tanks being superior weapon to sword-fighting...


Interesting that you cut off now the first sentence of my quote:

2. is there any hint in the books for dwarves cultivating animals? I cannot remember.

The rest of that quote was just added to underline this sentence.
Dwarves do not tame animals as mounts (I didn´t even remember that it´s said in the books), otherwise they would have used them, if they are in such a hurry to get to Lonely Mountain.

You really think that those small buckler shields would have stopped a barage of arrows?

No. Anything else?

[NetoD20]

ok elite cavalry...

are we still talking about implementing them for Iron Hills only, or for every dwarven faction?
If only Iron Hills: What would the other 2 dwarven realms get instead of the ram-riders?

Particularly I would prefer the Ram Riders to be implemented in all three of the subfactions, because it makes sense with the Battle Wagon argument, plus I'd assume that rams and mountain goats inhabit the three realms. You can see Erebor goats/rams and even small boars in this shot from the dwarven refugees in the Prologue of An Unexpected Journey:

There's people who don't like that idea, so I remember suggestions for new elite units for the dwarves, a different one for every realm, in this thread: http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31195.0.html

If the Ram Riders were to be introduced only in Iron Hills, maybe Ered Luin could get the Dwarven Adventurers of Eriador and Erebor could get Dáin's Royal Guard with the CaH's Boar Shield. Maybe these units, if to be implemented, could be recruited at the Citadel, representing noble class dwarves.

Thanks to @DieWalküre for dealing with my post's problem.

[Fredius]

There is a slight difference between adding some things that are not mentioned in a book and adding something which the books explicitly says does not exist in that world! (dwarves riding animals)
Following your argumentation one could argue that dwarves should get tanks, as Tolkien simply didn´t understand tanks being superior weapon to sword-fighting...

That's just plain exaggeration. I'm still keeping this argument into a medieval sense of warfare, hell I wouldn't care if Peter Jackson put the Dwarves on ponies; but since ponies are no mounts meant for military purposes that's why he added those Rams.

Interesting that you cut off now the first sentence of my quote:

2. is there any hint in the books for dwarves cultivating animals? I cannot remember.

The rest of that quote was just added to underline this sentence.
Dwarves do not tame animals as mounts (I didn´t even remember that it´s said in the books), otherwise they would have used them, if they are in such a hurry to get to Lonely Mountain.

First of all; I purposely cut off that sentence, because it was the next sentences that I wanted to reply to. It doesn't matter anyway; I made my point clear and if you are against it then please tell your reasons.

You really think that those small buckler shields would have stopped a barage of arrows?

No. Anything else?

Nope, I just hope you understand that you shouldn't even try to make up the flaws of the book, it's a waste of your time.

[korner]

you shouldn't even try to make up the flaws of the book

I don´t see the flaw:
Dwarves have to get to the mountain as quick as possible. Therefore they carry only light armour and weapon. If they´d carry ballistas and stuff like in the movie, they´d simply come too late.
And if dwarves would have mounts, they would have used them - but they simply don´t have them. Not a flaw in my opinion.

it's a waste of your time.

please let´s not talk about this... read first page of that topic and see the reactions I got...