[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions

General Balance Discussion

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FG15:

--- Zitat von: Specter am 31. Mär 2020, 14:14 ---Suggestion:
Troops with banners can only be healed in their own buildings (outside eco, inbase, outpost)

--- Ende Zitat ---
What exactly do you mean by that? But in general it is impossible to target effects only at units with a banner carrier.


Also concerning banner carriers: Banner carriers have to be bound to a level. It has not to be level 2, but there has be a level at which they automatically appear or else players won't be able to purchase them with an upgrade either.

Nicipiz:
Hello everyone,
first of all I agree to most of the proposed changes.

Inflation System:
In my opinion, inflation is too high at the moment and a player who has gained the map advantage should be rewarded. Of course there should also be a comeback possibility, but in my opinion this is guaranteed by the current system of commander points. Furthermore the player with map control has to besiege the inferior player and use a lot of resources for this and should not have any disadvantage.

External Farms:

--- Zitat von: Seleukos I. am 27. Mär 2020, 12:51 ---My idea would be to reduce the cost of farms back to 200 BUT increase the cost of farms with every level. Level one would cost 200, as I said, level two farms would cost 300 and level three farms would cost 400. This would only affect external farms, inbase farms are fine I think.
This would make the eg more dynamic because you can trade farms more easily (like in 441), but losing a level three farm in the lg would be more painfull and harassment could have more impact in the later game.
Ofc you could also make level three farms cost even 450 or 500, but I think 400 would be a good start.

--- Ende Zitat ---
I like the idea that harassment would be more more viable in the early and the more punishing in the lg. Furthermore, this would also make the eg more dynamic, because after the start you have more resources for troops, because the external farms cost less.

Regards
Nicipiz

Big F:
A while back I made a somewhat larger post that summarized what most edain pvp 1v1 players think about the current gameplay of edain 4.5.
Now I want to present our ideas on what could be some solutions to the addressed issues.

Economy

The inflation can stay as strong as it is, but outside farms should cost at maximum 200 and the general income could be increased substantially.

Inflation is a good mechanic to curb edain's very strong snowballing. However, together with farms costing 300, it takes forever to afford anything and the gameplay is too slow. Increasing the income of economy buildings would not just speed up the gameplay again, it would also enable more strategies because you can afford producing units from 3,4,5 different military buildings and don't have to fill your base with 90% economy buildings. If this makes it too difficult to finish off a player that has lost all map control becauses the base still produces 2k resources a minute, then the defenders advantage should be decreased and siege units should become more potent.

Fighting over every single farm on the map was what Edain's early and mid game was all about. With outside farms costing 50% more than in 4.4.1 many players opt to just fill their base with economic structures. It is often not worth it to build a farm in a risky location. That might sound like it adds some decision making, but the less farms are taken on the map the less points of interest there are, the less reasons there are to fight over positions, the less opportunities think about tactics and maneuvers to conquer more positions. There is too much just running around in big clumps and doing nothing in the early and mid game because there is nothing to do besides some creeping.

Sieges
I think the only way to make sieges interesting is making siege units so accessible that a player that has a temporary military advantage but might be economically behind (less map control) can quickly start a siege and do some lasting damage. It doesn't even have to end the game. Destroying a barracks and and 2 eco buildings can be enough. The whole siege maneuver has to happen before the defending player with more map control inevitably mustered a stronger army. Sieges where the attackers has 100% map control will and should never have a real comeback potential unless the attacker does some major mistakes.

Heroes
Hero's CP cost needs to be reflective of their power level. If you have 1300 out 1500 cp, there is simply no alternative, nothing could make your army stronger than spamming out all heroes at this point. If you don't do this but your opponent does, you lose the fight. It would make balancing heroes substantially easier if their CP cost was in line with other units.
Just as a comparison, the competitively played rotwk 2.02 has tier 3 heroes cost 100 out of 1000 cp points. In edain 4.4.1 they cost 30 out of 1800 cp points, 4.5 improved this but needs to go much further. 3000 resource heroes should cost 120 or even 150 command points. Even then they will still be the most Cp efficient units in the game.
Another important idea is to make heroes not improve their stats when leveling. Not just will a level 5 support hero win against a level 1 hero killer but if your opponent hero spammed early and has their heroes on level 4 already, there is no way to ever beat them with your own heroes or even keep your own heroes alive.
Another but more radical idea to curb hero's late game snowballing is making them respawn at level 1 when they die.
I would also like to see heroes doing no more than 100% damage against heroes so that the general army strength is more relevant than just who spammed out more heroes when it comes to hero battles and keeping your heroes alive.

Healing & towers
I already described why healing, especially healing near important positions is very toxic to fun gameplay. A popular solution was to make healing sources only heal existing units, but not replenish the battalions, only banner carriers should have this ability. This could be a sufficient nerf. Also the rohan assembly point is way to strong and annoying. It should be moved to the exile camp or taken out.
Also, towers outside of your base should see a significant range reduction, enough for self defense, but no longer enough to zone out the enemy.

Cavalry & Pikes

Cavalry is too oppressive. It is simply not viable to split your forces once a larger force of cavalry is on the field. Even sending out just individual pike battalions is not viable since 4 battalions of mobile cavalry will easily kill it and, if necessary, they just heal back up in the base. If healing gets nerfed like described above, the problem might be reduced. Another big problem is that pikes don't do 360° trample revenge. Cavalry gets 0 damage when trampling pikes from behind. This makes a combination of infantry + cavalry way too strong to hunt down armies, the cavalry can kill everything if charging in from behind and if the pikes turn around to face the cavalry the chasing infantry will kill the pikemen.

Outposts
Players get the dunedain camp, dale and laketown for their healing, their towers and ,in 4.4.1, their income. All of which should be nerfed as I described above. I would like to see outposts become a lot cheaper when it comes to making outpost unique units or preparing a siege but a lot more expensive when it comes to turtlely and boring tower-heal-income aspects. The mordor outposts and the exile camp are fine. But dale, laketown, the dunedain camp, dol amroth and ered mithrin could be reworked in this regard. Even better but more difficult would be to give outpost units more unique aspects that complement your normal army, players a willing to invest a lot of recources to get rohan captains, improved orcs, castellans or mirkwood units.

Vin55:
Some interesting aspects there :) to work with. Altough I think cp wise heroes are ok just increase the amount of money like in Bfme2 for some Heroes. Otherwise great comment. Really like the idea about pikes and healing points and outsdie eco.

Yours kindly,

Vin55

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:

--- Zitat von: Big F am 10. Apr 2020, 14:53 ---Another big problem is that pikes don't do 360° trample revenge. Cavalry gets 0 damage when trampling pikes from behind. This makes a combination of infantry + cavalry way too strong to hunt down armies, the cavalry can kill everything if charging in from behind and if the pikes turn around to face the cavalry the chasing infantry will kill the pikemen.

--- Ende Zitat ---

This is indeed very frustrating, especially when the engine and the delay decide that the enemy was somehow flanking your pikes when they actually just charged straight into them. The only solution to this - that I know of - is to make pikes not flankable period. They already have this trait in the porcupine formation, but that has other drawbacks. I'm currently of the opinion that a situation where pikes can under no circumstance suffer flanking damage (so no flanking damage from swords, archers, other pikes... either) is still preferable to the current one, but I'd be interested what you think of this.

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