Rohan Balance Discussion

[-DJANGO-]

Agree 

[Elite KryPtik]

I think personally that Theoden has enough support powers already, the issue I have is with the health-cost ratio. Also guys, I was aiming for the high health amount, so 5500 for level 1, I just forgot the exact number, my bad

The difference between heroes like Gandalf/Saruman and Theoden is that they can get in, use their powers and get out, having done all they need to. For Theoden to work, he has to be in actual battle along with your army, which means that for the entire fight he will probably end up being on defensive mode in the back instead of fighting up front, as he should be. Yeah, he is hard to catch, but oftentimes he dies so quickly you don't even get a chance to mount him up. You can be off doing something else while he fights in a battle you know is won, and somebody snipes him in about 5 seconds just to make you lose 2800. Its brutal, and really annoying.

Its really unusual that Theoden, who should be leading his armies into battle, has to stay in the very back of the army, lest he be slaughtered by almost any other hero. I think its really foolish to have the literal leader of the faction have health points on the same level as Wulfgar, Gamling or Beregond. At the very least I would push for a health buff to the standard category, so 4500 on level 1, and then a price decrease to 2400 to match it. Also, don't forget, some heroes are Hybrids, who have things like hero killer damage and tank health, such as Thorin Oakenshield, who costs LESS than Theoden.

I really liked your support ideas, and also I'm not sure that the experience power is actually working properly, they have never seemed to gain that much experience even in big army clashes while using the ability. If somebody wants to test over the weekend just let me know If I was going to replace any ability though, it would be the King's Herald power he has. By the time you have him leveled high enough to unlock the ability, you have a big army in 1 location that you are rarely if ever going to split apart from him, making the herald essentially useless. So that would be the power I would move to have changed, unless something changed without me knowing and the herald now gives leadership on top of Theoden.

Glad to have the discussion going, lets keep it up

[Odysseus]

Hmm, I feel Kryptik makes solid points though. I wonder if we can strike middle ground somewhere. He could have the health pool of a tank, because people talk about his abilities and compare him to the likes of Saruman and especially Gandalf because of the share in horse mechanics, but on the other side of the coin, Elendil did say that the lower HP pool is to justify such destructive abilities. My question is though, does Theoden have these? Is the comparison really even fair?

I agree with Elite that Theoden should be getting into fights, leading his army from the front. Besides, I don't think it will matter too much. Theoden's only option for survivability is his level 10 power and horse, but his primary purpose is of course his unique leadership. He has no real tank powers like Boromir or Hama that reduce incoming damage greatly. We could perhaps also just tweak his health scaling per level, so that remains a bit fragile early, but benefits even more from levelling than other heroes do. At best, he becomes worth his price tag, at worst, he takes 1-2 more hits to kill.

Any thoughts on this?

On a side note, I think the design behind the herald is interesting and on paper greatly promotes the management of leadership on multiple flanks or fronts for that matter. In practice, unfortunately, it is usually not the case. The transition of mid to late game is usually marked by each faction having accumulated enough strength to create their own blobs of death and bounce them against each other to see who comes on top. And at the same time, I feel the ability is a bit awkward in his kit. It feels like he has two leaderships that basically do the same thing. Might just be me though.

[Morwereth]

I don't agree with reducing price of him instead, Theoden is the faction leader and ring hero so his price should be similar with other faction leaders.

I agree with Elite that Theoden should be getting into fights, leading his army from the front. Besides, I don't think it will matter too much. Theoden's only option for survivability is his level 10 power and horse, but his primary purpose is of course his unique leadership. He has no real tank powers like Boromir or Hama that reduce incoming damage greatly. We could perhaps also just tweak his health scaling per level, so that remains a bit fragile early, but benefits even more from levelling than other heroes do. At best, he becomes for his price tag, at worst, he takes 1-2 more hits to kill.

Any thoughts on this?

On a side note, I think the design behind the herald is interesting and on paper greatly promotes the management of leadership on multiple flanks or fronts for that matter. In practice, unfortunately, it is usually not the case. The transition of mid to late game is usually marked by each faction having accumulated enough strength to create their own blobs of death and bounce them against each other to see who comes on top. And at the same time, I feel the ability is a bit awkward in his kit. It feels like he has two leaderships that basically do the same thing. Might just be me though.

About Gandalf, he is a mass slayer and has also hero killer abilities. Moreover, Gandalf the Challenge Master is the one of most useful ring hero in the mod. It makes sense Gandalf starts with 3500 hp.

Theoden is only unit and hero (due to his leadership and exp boost) supporter. He loses armor and speed when he uses the ring. He levels up quite slowly. I can't see any reason why he starts with 3500 hp like Gandalf.

It would be fair if Theoden started 4500 hp (at least) like standard heroes. I also suggest making him level up faster. If he gets some experience from other unit's kills and gets hp boost probably he will be worth 2800.

Theoden's Herald is quite situational. I don't see someone uses it in online matches but it can be extremely useful if you split some cavalry with herald and harass enemy. Also it is bugged (at least on me ) so you can't summon it on horse right now. The problem I see in herald is he is a bit squishy and situational. Mostly people prefer fully pushing other player instead of splitting army and harassing.

[Julio229]

Playing against Rohan I've noticed their siege weapons should have less health/are too strong. It makes no sense that playing as Imladris I've more difficulties destroying Rohan's siege units than Isengard's siege units (When it should be the opposite, in my opinion). It also doesn't help that Rohan's AI is probably the most difficult to play against, and having fully upgraded Imladris warriors struggling to destroy a single Rohan battering ram doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Sawman]

Rohan has the worst siege in the game if anything they should be buffed, the ram is exactly the same as any other ram in terms of damage and in health, and their catapults have the lowest range compared to everyone else's and I think their damage is lower than the balista from isengard and that's saying something,

Hero's and spears tend to do better against rams try that maybe, and IMO isengard is the hardest ai

[Julio229]

I'll try with spears!

I don't have a lot of difficulties against Isengard, I tend to struggle more with Rohan and Lothlorien.

[Sefie1999AD]

There's two balance changes I'd like to see for Rohan. In the Ultimate Skill Cup, hardly anyone played as Rohan, which implies to me that the faction is somewhat unpopular among Edain's gaming community. While I do think this is mostly because of Rohan's micromanagement-intensive playstyle rather than being underpowered, I still think some parts of Rohan's faction are lacking, and addressing these issues could make the faction more tempting to play.

First, I'd like Rohan to have a way of reducing the cost of unit upgrades (such as Heavy Armor and Forged Blades). Their upgrades are extremely expensive, and with only 7 build plots, Rohan's economy isn't all that great anyway. They do have Cruel Taxes, which is great, but by the time you begin to upgrade your forces, the chances are that you've already cured Theoden. By the way, this is the reason why I personally like to keep Theoden corrupted for as long as possible, as he's the only way to boost Rohan's economy. As for how to reduce the cost of upgrades, a simple way would be to have each Farm (or Assembly Point) reduce the cost of upgrades, similar to what Gondor Blacksmiths and Dwarven Mine Shafts do. Alternatively, you could add an upgrade to King's Camp: an upgrade that reduces the cost of your unit upgrades by a certain percent (similar to what MotW's Iron Ore does in the vanilla BFME2).

Second, I'd like Rohan to get better offensive siege. The game design with the recent versions seems to promote using siege, as structural arrows tear even through Heavy Armor very quickly. Using Cavalry – which is supposed to be Rohan's trademark – to attack an enemy base will only get you killed (unless you grind until Theoden learns Glorious Charge), as horse battalions are easy targets for arrow towers even with Heavy Armor and Horse Shields. Battering Rams get killed by melee units when they enter the enemy base. They would need meat shields, but heroes are practically the only thing that can survive long enough inside a fully defended enemy base. Onagers are ridiculously weak. I tried having 5 of them attack an Arrow Tower, and they took forever to take it down. Onagers need a major boost (or a purchaseable upgrade) for their attack power. I know Rohan isn't really a siege faction lore-wise, but balance-wise, they don't have any effective ways to deal with a properly defended Castle. It's as if Rohan was meant to be played on Camp maps, not Castle maps.

[Elite KryPtik]

I agree with most of your points, ESPECIALLY the Upgrade Discount. I think that having it tied to the Assembly Point would be a brilliant idea, and would give the Assembly Point some use beyond just a healing archer tower.

Regarding siege, don't forget that you can summon Ents, which are extremely capable of sieging enemies. Regardless, I definitely agree that Rohan's Onagers need the ability to buy upgrades to get better, Isengards Ballistae also need this. I would suggest the old upgrade of flaming hay bales for Rohan, and Piercing Bolts for the Ballistae.

A couple more points that I have brought up earlier, Theoden needs a health buff terribly, because while he is a unit supporter he needs to be in combat to give units his benefits. This, combined with the passive AI targeting of units in combat ALWAYS hitting him first, in addition to him seemingly being a bit faster than the rest of the army, means he dies super easily and quickly. He also takes FOREVER to level up, some heroes take a ridiculous amount of time to level up, like Theoden, and some are insanely fast, like Arwen. I would like the experience gain for heroes to be normalized based on cost.

[Sefie1999AD]

Having the upgrade discount tied to the Assembly Point would make AP more useful, yes. Currently, the structure is rather expensive for a settlement, and you'll need to pay even more to arm it. It also takes one settlement plot away from a money-producing farm. At the moment, if you wanted a defensive settlement, it might be more cost-effective to just build a farm and upgrade it with Production 1 and Defence 2. At any rate, if the Assembly Point gave an upgrade discount, how would you implement it? Usually you'd need at least 2 structures to get any discount, but I think the bonus would be too weak if you needed to build 2 Assembly Points to even get the smallest discount. I'd propose something like:

1 Assembly Point - 10% discount
2 Points - 15% discount
3 Points - 20% discount
4 Points - 25% discount

These discounts might seem very big, but building 4 Assembly Points is very expensive, and it also means you'll have 4 farms less to produce money.

I really like the idea of burning hay bales for Rohan! Technology-wise, it's simple but effective, and therefore fits Rohan very well.

Definitely agreed on Theoden needing to level up faster. He gains levels so slowly that the best way to get Glorious Charge is to find the One Ring and use it to boost him to level 10.

[DrHouse93]

I agree with what has been stated above: the Assembly Point discount proposed by Selfie1999AD, and also the health and experience buff for Theoden

Last match I played with Rohan, the minimum level of my heroes was level 7, of course not counting Theoden at level 4

[Elite KryPtik]

I'm not really sure what the best way of tying the upgrade discount to Assembly Points would be, maybe a system similar to Lothlorien, where you get a big discount after you get 2 Assembly Points, and max at 3, would be fairest. After all, Loriens buildings are similarly priced, although they also generate resources, so it would still be a hit to the overall economy. I think it would help a lot in the long run though, as I sometimes have 2 Assembly Points in my games anyways after I have crushed my opponent early game and taken map control.

[Slawek56703]

My idea of improving Rohan and other cavalry . We know that Pikeman and are very strong vs cavalry but doesnt mean pikeman are very much resistant to attacks of cavalry so if cavalry manage to attack pikeman they should deal damage as big as to infantry this is resonable i think an i think many people will agree (in bfme 1 this actually happend but we know this was far from perfect becouse cavalry could destroy pikes if those didnt make thier formation and in front of the cavalry is destroyed or loose like 90% health but depends if they can trample them.)Second i wanted to say that cavalry are very effective on flanks so if u attack enemy from some angle or behind u can destroy them without big loses unless they had many pikes in evry possible place angle to cover other pikes . Rohan charges reealy should be devastating and shouldnt be underestimated by players .
So in short :increase flanking damage like 300% vs pikeman especially , decrease armor for pikeman if cavalry attacks them and doing something with crush revange damage vs diffrent types of units less when attacks archers little bigger when infantry especially heavy and biggest when charging pikes ...(I hope AI get new paths to attacking pikes with cav othervise it get unbalanced and cavalry get destroyed (just thinking) *(whatever).
Well that was my idea hope its possible to read 

[Morwereth]

My idea of improving Rohan and other cavalry . We know that Pikeman and are very strong vs cavalry but doesnt mean pikeman are very much resistant to attacks of cavalry so if cavalry manage to attack pikeman they should deal damage as big as to infantry this is resonable i think an i think many people will agree (in bfme 1 this actually happend but we know this was far from perfect becouse cavalry could destroy pikes if those didnt make thier formation and in front of the cavalry is destroyed or loose like 90% health but depends if they can trample them.)Second i wanted to say that cavalry are very effective on flanks so if u attack enemy from some angle or behind u can destroy them without big loses unless they had many pikes in evry possible place angle to cover other pikes . Rohan charges reealy should be devastating and shouldnt be underestimated by players .
So in short :increase flanking damage like 300% vs pikeman especially , decrease armor for pikeman if cavalry attacks them and doing something with crush revange damage vs diffrent types of units less when attacks archers little bigger when infantry especially heavy and biggest when charging pikes ...(I hope AI get new paths to attacking pikes with cav othervise it get unbalanced and cavalry get destroyed (just thinking) *(whatever).
Well that was my idea hope its possible to read

I think Rohan's problem is not cavalry at the moment. Please notice that cavalry is both counter of swordsmen and archers, so there is no way to counter it if you one shot pikemen battalion somehow. Also, Rohirrim of eastfold can hold against basic pikes if you use horseman shield upgrade. With the latest patch, I think the Team made a good job by giving extra trampling to normal Rohirrim that make them quite useful.

So no, cavalry is not an issue here. I think one of the problems is %90 Rohan's late game depends on an outpost. You simply get screwed when opponent spams elite pikes and you don't have an an outpost in late game. Literally, all you can do is spamming peasants.

Other one is economy. I like the assembly point idea. It requires map control that fits with an aggressive faction like Rohan. Getting upgrade discount from outer buildings can be unique.

Edit: fixed some mistakes.

[Morwereth]

Greetings! Today I would like to share some ideas for Rohirrim Marshals, mostly about making their passives more various and useful.

Currently, all three marshals give fear resistance to nearby allies. Theoden's leadership gives fear resistance and can be split with herald easily. Also every faction got horn spell to give units fear resistance. At this point, Rohan has too many ways to provide fear resistance unnecessarily. So my idea is giving small but different passives to marshals that can make them more efficient in LG.

Grimbold

Grimbold is a veteran commander. He fought in Battle of the Fords of Isen I and II. Later was in Battle of Helm's Deep, arrived with Gandalf and Erkenbrand. Finally he participated Battle of the Pelennor Fields.
 
I find giving experience bonus of Eomer's passive suitable. He fought in many battles. Units fight alongside of him can get double experience passively. He can even get a weak version of pillage skill but it can be op for a marshal.

The reason why I want to give him Eomer's passive is this ability doesn't fit with Eomer's role. He lacks mass slayer abilities and It would be nice to see one more skill that improves his role. But it's another discussion.

Elfhelm

He arrived Battle of the Fords of Isen I with great haste, charged with his riders. After Battle of the Pelennor Fields, he led the three thousand Rohirrim and destroyed last of Mordor's force that blockaded northern road.

His passive can provide %10-%15 movement speed to nearby cavalry. Numbers or radius of buff can be changed of course.

Erkenbrand

He led his men with Gandalf and fought at the end of Battle of Helm's Deep. Although he is old, he described as tall and strong, reminiscent of Helm Hammerhand.

I was thinking that keeping fear resistance passive just for him. So players can use him as well when Theoden is either corrupted or not around.

Or

He can provide some sort of knock back resistance in a small radius, it can improve cavalry against trolls in LG.

I tried to explain my suggestions with using lore. As I said, these numbers or effects can be changed for balance's sake  . I would like to hear your ideas as well. I think these changes can improve Rohan's LG a bit.