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Autor Thema: Mordor Balance Discussion  (Gelesen 19881 mal)

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #165 am: 12. Jan 2017, 22:29 »
Mollok will get slightly buffed in the next version as well, although I don't really agree with him just plain sucking. You need to watch him constantly to stop him from always running into pikes (no idea why he loves to do that), but if you have good micro, he can take on several batallions on his own. He does massive aoe and can boost his damage up to +100%, meaning he will oneshot almost everything that isn't upgraded (or Imladris^^) - including cavalry. He has clear counters in pikes and hero killers, he just needs some added survivability against swords imho, since he dies very quickly to those as well.

calixoxx

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #166 am: 15. Jan 2017, 02:35 »
Trolls are absolutely not OP  :D  Maybe if you base rush someone they are good, but they are not effective late game and do not do much to help Mordor's already lacking late game against many factions. Most factions late game will have some level of pikes. Even armored trolls roll right over against an upgraded batt of pikes, especially elite ones.

Mordor trolls are very effective at marching into the enemy base but not at engaging a late game army.

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #167 am: 15. Jan 2017, 03:29 »
Maybe it would be fair do reduce the crush revenge damage armored Trolls get from swords to a minimum and pikes slightly, since they still get good damage from ranging units and direct pike and hero damage.
The thing with Trolls is, that the step to being OP is very small.

calixoxx

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #168 am: 15. Jan 2017, 07:09 »
I totally agree. I know trolls have swung wildly to too OP to underwhelming to where they are now. You just simply can't use trolls in your army late game and have it be worth your while during a faceoff with the enemy. Gondor, Lorien, Dwarves, Isen, they all wreck trolls with pikes.

No one is saying they aren't good at baserushing ^^

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #169 am: 16. Jan 2017, 01:03 »
You don't have much experience if you think Trolls get destroyed by pikes, ESPECIALLY armored ones. You know how you beat pikes with trolls? Give them a mace, move them close to the pikes, press the S key, use their ability, and watch the carnage. Its devastating. I have had 2 battalions of UNARMORED trolls kill 4+ battalions of Isengard Pikes, some of the best pikes in the game. I already identified the factions that can handle them easily, Gondor is definitely not one of them.

As for the factions that CAN Handle trolls, they get destroyed by the other factors of Mordor. Orc spam plus insane nazgul debuffs, moving into late game with Castellans and upgraded Archers with Overseers, plus overseers on Cirith Ungol Halberdiers, and Mordor becomes impossible to deal with. Probably the only 2 factions that stand a decent chance against Mordor in 1v1 are Rohan, because of their quick cav, and Lorien, because Lorien is so OP. Ered Luin can probably handle them as well, but I ban them in my games for being too broken, so there you go.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

calixoxx

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #170 am: 16. Jan 2017, 02:21 »
Well thank you for "teaching" me how to play on a suggestion forum.  8-|

I have had plenty of experience playing edain, actually. This is the kind of response and cocky arrogance that 1) made me stop watching your videos, and 2) make these suggestion forums standoffish for people who aren't so regular as the same four players who constantly respond here and seem to all be "Balance Testers"

You send upgraded trolls into an army of upgraded pikes, especially elite pikes, of any faction, and it goes down. If those pikes have heavy armor, the troll isn't going to devastate your army as much as your army is going to devastate that troll.

You mention many combinations of Mordor play that sound fantastic on paper, but ultimately rarely makes it to fruition late game in reality. If you're a Mordor camp, you have limited build plots. You need to choose carefully between going for spell point recharge reduction or archer/pike reduction. Choose between 2-3 barracks (2 is the standard for me, it's almost GG if you only make 1 barracks as Mordor early). So you're using 2 plots for barracks. Then you pick between 2-3 arsenals or tribute camps. Now you're already using all but 1 of your build plots so you need to choose between siege or trolls.

Everyone makes the case that Mordor is so eco friendly because the units are free. But those free units are not viable late game. You can argue you "make" them viable by spamming them, but CP only goes so far. Then while you're churning out the orcs, you need to spend very heavily just to make your nazgul viable by leveling Sauron. The units from Cirith Ungol, yes, take no CP, but are expensive and limited to 3. Just getting to your first battalion of castellans costs 3,600 I think, then even more for 2 additional ones. You're dumping 500+400+300 PER troll. They should be more tanky.

I really cannot see how you could possibly have 4 pikes from Isengard get mowed down by 2 trolls unupgraded. I really have never seen that happen regularly.

You paint a very dreamy picture of late game Mordor that rarely pans out perfectly for the Mordor player. My argument is to buff trolls against pikes slightly to make them more viable in armies head to head. I have never played with you, Kryptik, because you seem more comfortable playing with the same group of people every time (and when I've invited you to a group game you've said "No." but I can tell you that I play many times a week with/against a large group of edain players and I very rarely see trolls playing a prominent, EFFECTIVE roll in Mordor armies head-to-head late game because they are so brittle to pikes and arrows late game. It simply does not happen.

Without sounding like a jerk, I think maybe you should experience playing against more than Haman, Python, Fella, and Sawman 90% of the time and maybe you would see a wider amount of the challenges we are experiencing.

As a balance tester I think you should take it upon yourself to expand your horizons a little bit. And please do not presume to know my experience level  :D My goals are to enjoy the game- same as you.

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #171 am: 16. Jan 2017, 03:56 »
First off, it wasn't my intention to sound cocky. Secondly, I'm talking about things from a 1v1 perspective, not a team game perspective, which is where you seem to have most of your experience. Thirdly, I play a lot of games that I don't upload to my channel against a wide range of people. Fourthly, I never said that trolls are OP at large, I said they are OP against certain factions. A troll with a mace will destroy any pike unit in the game, upgraded or not, with extreme ease. The only ones that could potentially stop them are Mirkwood Palace Guards because of their insanely strong ability that is itself OP.

I would happily 1v1 you if you don't believe me, although the problem is that in a controlled 1v1 situation you're going to KNOW I'm are rushing trolls and react accordingly. The strengths of Mordor are their incredible options and diverse playstyles, that make it impossible for MOST factions to effectively compete with them. As for not having enough build plots, that isn't an argument, you can very easily rush for an outpost, especially on maps like Fords of Isen 2, make more orc pits, and flood your enemy to death wityh basic, free orcs backed by Nazgul and Gothmog. Then, with map control, you take the other outpost for your siege or anything else you need. It is not at all difficult to build up an incredible army as Mordor.

EDIT: Also, I'm not a balance tester, or else it would say so in my signature. My main role is correcting mistakes with the english text. I just play a lot with experienced and capable players. I have never stated to be the best player in the community, I would delegate that to somebody like Mogat or Firefly.
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Jan 2017, 04:02 von Elite KryPtik »
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #172 am: 16. Jan 2017, 10:57 »
[...] and 2) make these suggestion forums standoffish for people who aren't so regular as the same four players who constantly respond here and seem to all be "Balance Testers"
That certainly isn't the intention of anyone here, you are very welcome to post about any issues you might have. It's great to have you :)

The thing is, your argumentation really isn't that great either [ugly]. You pretty much argue that trolls get killed (too easily) by pikes, correct me if I'm wrong here. Since pikes are the main counter of monsters, that's obviously not inherently bad, quite the contrary. That mostly leaves the point of trolls dying too quickly to pikes, and that's where I disagree. Armoured trolls reach over 10000 hp when they level up. That's an obscene amout of hp. Pikes do most damage when they are trampled and deal crushrevenge, which is something a good Mordor player can avoid most of the time. That means you also need archers to focus the trolls down, because pikes in melee won't deal with the trolls fast enough to protect the rest of your army from annihilation. And since archers and pikes will usually be upgraded, you're now investing more money and much more cp to counter the troll than the guy who gets the troll. That's a money advantage right there, and because orcs are free you can use that money for an outpost, heroes, castellans, archers... all that sweet stuff that's good against pikes.

Walküre

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #173 am: 16. Jan 2017, 11:00 »
I have had plenty of experience playing edain, actually. This is the kind of response and cocky arrogance that 1) made me stop watching your videos, and 2) make these suggestion forums standoffish for people who aren't so regular as the same four players who constantly respond here and seem to all be "Balance Testers".

This typology of threads is also supposed to be place for discussion, and so one should also expect to get replies to one's contributions and to debate with other people. The Edain Team will nonetheless have the possibility to read the development of every debate and then make their own final considerations. Just, as I pointed out, people are also supposed to discuss with other users on balance-related topics. Yes, discussions may often be heated or even harsh, because rarely does anyone have the absolute ultimate truth at hand; as a Moderator, I wouldn't really like things to get so much lively, but this is also a part of the whole forum experience. If you are really involved in an exchange of opinions, I couldn't give you any other advice but try to counter each response with even more arguments and constructive points (as you have also done so far).

Only, please, stop with the entire 'Beta/Balance Testers argument', because you seem to be quite obsessed with the internal members of Modding Union and I honestly sense a bit of resentment in your words (personal resentment). The contributions of all Beta/Balance Testers are totally not inherently superior to the ones of other people, just for their own activity in this forum. It's really not an issue in the first place, as everyone here has the right to participate and to be heard by others. They could instead provide more insightful elements or present many practical evidences. As I already told you on ModDB, the fact that most of the attendees of these threads are Beta/Balance Testers is due to the tough nature of the matters involved (balance) and because they also happen to be the most active group of people that is interested in this topic. I'm not personally interested in balance and that's why I don't usually post here. In no way, though, should these facts restrain someone from joining the discussion (many other people intervened here as well) or be brought as some sort of arguments whatsoever, unless one is really intended to raise this issue in the first place.

If you desire to debate balance-related topics and to improve the game, that's absolutely fine. But if you want to address other different issues or give criticism about how the internal members of the forum work or how the Edain Team manages things, there is a proper space which is meant to gather general feedback regarding this website; and you should do that overtly, without hinting at your grievances anytime another one is answering you. Otherwise, if you need to settle very personal disputes (invitations, quarrels, personal complaints and so on), personal messages (PMs) exist exactly for this purpose.
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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #174 am: 16. Jan 2017, 13:57 »
I think mostly everything was put in order by now. Though i have some points for you and all new people who want to participate in balance discussions should remember:

1. As all of your posts showed, you got responses to your suggestion, meaning that FEEDBACK IS ALWAYS welcome. If really love that new people bring new life into these balance discussions.

2. Its for your best, if you think about your proposal and write it as CONCRETE as possible.
It is always easier to say "that is OP, this is broken, useless". But when it comes to what the best concrete solution is, most people don't offer one.
Balance Testers are not "the bad guys" if you thought so! No one shut's suggestions down as "whining or simply complaining", IF you bring a concrete suggestion and with a coherent argumentation behind it. Which leads to point 3...

3. Balance is always based on 1v1 matches. Though many different aspects have to be cosidered: like diffrent Maps or the skill of the players.

4. The more your proposals are concrete, the less "teaching" or argumentation on "how can a faction/unit be played" will you get. Nonetheless on some Balance Suggestions this kind of argumentation is valid. Because you always have to consider where the strengh and weakness of a faction lies and what role for example a unit has within its faction. For example we had an internal Thread on german, where we first discussed how a faction is played at the moment, and then how it should be played, be improved and balance strategies and so on and on...
But I agree with you, that this kind of argumentation should always be connected to the previous suggestion, so that it doesn't ignore your point. Then it won't be "teaching" but a falid aspect of balance that should be considered.

5. If you should base your argumentation on a comparison with other factions, reconsider if the problem maybe lies not within the other mentioned factions.

Greetings and hopefully you don't lose your motivation on giving balance feedback

:)

Dain@

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #175 am: 5. Feb 2017, 10:43 »
Hello! In my opinion at this time the Nazgul are weak and their price is too high!. If at a later stage of the game are more or less normal, at an early stage it is just madness!. While the Necromancer has not reached the level of 6-7! Nazgul useless! so also the little ones that are very expensive and does not meet the criterion of cost / benefit. And if two Nazgûl still somehow can eyeing the five - they are only useful at level 10. Before hiring does not make sense. WK is strong but very expensive. 3500 is the most expensive characters. Similarly this applies Khamul. 2850! Oh, and yes even with regard to the two Nazgul! I wonder who that updates the Nazgul to the hunter ring? I personally always updated to the marshal. But it will be interesting if someone will share his thoughts. As if there was not one thing it is clear that at least need some polishing Nazgul, with proper elaboration, they can become unique characters. My suggestion about the Nazgul the following: At an early stage to give Nazgul weak capacity but it will be enough for them until the necromancer attains 5 level, because if you upgrade the Nazgul to marshal before Necromancer scored 5 level it is a useless waste of money just think Thorin and Glorfindel are 1800 ! as well as the Nazgul and the benefits that different! I hope this article will lead to a heated discussion about the further development of the Nazgul.

The second sentence: Add a few new abilities (defense, economic, tactical) for Minas Morgul and Dol Guldur. For example, only enough to compare Dol Guldur / Minas Morgul with Dale or Mirkud. Obviously Mirkwood / Dale efficient, cheaper and offers more tactical maneuvers.
Dol Guldur
Price reduced to 2000.
For Dol Guldur I offer the following update:
Poison - Passive. Leave now.
Spiders. - Fortress gets improved spiders. So five huge spiders will guard the fortress. (After using the influence of Sauron)
Enchantment of abandonment - Near the fortress there is a fog that hides the allied forces and they can be cured.
Resident Necromancer. -Pasivnoe. Fortress receives 25% reservation and 25% generate more money. Also, 25% enhances the action of the poison (the damage of the first ability.)
Minas Morgul is still in development
And what do you think?

Slawek56703

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #176 am: 20. Feb 2017, 22:47 »
Zitat
From what i read next update make solid improvment to defensive part of game giving all factions something that give them chance to break enemy aggresion when they are sieged . Mordor get Banner that speed up recruitment of nearby buildings which i think with current Mordor overpowered uncontrolled orc spam make game against Mordor player even worse . Incresing massively lag making game for everybody annoying and uncomfortable . I just want to know how increasing build speed can make Mordor faction more balanced {?}
Banner like all buildings in defensive buildplot will be cheap so any player proably go from start building atleast one even without caring for economy becouse of Gorbag . How Edain Team balance this one ? Slowing down orcs recruit speed and decreasing orc damage helps but wil this be enough ? Additionaly i could recommend making Morgul and Dol Guldor Orcs cost money they shouldnt be free at least cost 250 per horde . I will be honest with u making regular orcs cost at least 50 - 100 helps preventing player from super spam of orcs . Mordor in bfme 1 just had diffrent balance that sadly im not sure can work in edain 4 ); orcs there were just much weaker
I would be glad for answer and deeper explanation if possible .

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #177 am: 20. Feb 2017, 22:58 »
Mordor's orc spam won't stay like this. ;)