Mordor Balance Discussion

[Odysseus]

Do you have a replay, per chance? I have been testing Sauron numerous times the last couple of days and I do agree in certain aspects, but not with everything. Sauron's abilities are truly insane, but his actual combat power against anything above regular troops and un-upgraded elite troops, is rather mediocre.

It's a double-sided coin argument, unfortunately. Lore-wise, Sauron should be stronger. However, lore-wise, Sauron does also not obtain the Ring in the 3rd Age. If certain aspects of the factions are nerfed or tweaked, others can be buffed or tweaked. If default orcs will get a slight nerf, trolls will probably get a slight buff. If we nerf Cirith Ungol or the heroes a tiny bit, we could beef Sauron a bit, me thinks. Give and take is such a lovely policy for balance .

We must, however, never forget that Sauron is a hero that sticks with you through the entirety of the match. He only costs 1000 resources to recruit, which is not that expensive. He also has the largest ability roster in the mod. Personally, what I would like to see for Sauron, is that fire damage by catapults or fire arrows is reduced severely against him (except against his shadow form), for he is a ruler of fire. But that's all for the moment, for me. If we buff Sauron directly, the heroes linked to him, will also be buffed, so that's something to consider as well.

Still, Mordor is probably the most discussed faction, together with Rohan, balance-wise, because there is much to say about them. We have largely agreed to nerf default orcs a bit, and buff trolls a bit, but anything beyond that...Who can say (for now)?

Cheers!

[Spacetyrant93]

Unfortunately not, sorry.

Yes, indeed. I suppose we'll see, but still, it's...weird for Sauron to be that mediocre. At least for me.

Thank you for your answer

[Hamanathnath]

Well, remember that Sauron in Bfme2 and Rotwk did cost an insane amount of money to make (like 10000 resources if I remember correctly) as well as actually obtaining the ring.  Because of this cost, his insane Health, Armor, and Damage is justified.  In Edain, Sauron only costs 1000, and can't die like a normal hero, so you never have to pay that 1000 again to get him back.  So I don't agree that he should be as strong stat wise as he was in the other games. 

What makes Sauron different from Bfme2 and Rotwk is his abilities, which were really lacking in those games.  He has the largest ability roster of any Ring hero in Edain, and his abilities make him very strong at taking on larger armies. 

Remember that Citadel Guards cost 1400 per group, and are Gondor's strongest infantry.  Since they only take off 1/4 of his health before they die, that means Sauron can kill 4 groups in a row before dieing, and 4 groups of Citadel Guards cost 5600, which is a lot.  And that's assuming he uses no abilities at all, because if he does, with just the Heal he has alone he will be able to kill 6 groups, and with all the others I'd assume a lot more than that.

Sauron should be the best ring hero in the game, for obvious reasons.  And right now, I think he is.  The only one that is a close contender is Saruman, whose Knockback on normal attacks and Insanely powerful abilities bring him close to, if not equal with the Strength of Sauron.  Saurons still needs to be able to be countered by something, and right now I think he is in a good spot.  I wouldn't mind seeing maybe a very small increase to Sauron's base stats, but nothing more than very small.
 

[The_Necromancer0]

I'd like to mention that while it is true that you only have to buy him once, leveling him up isn't exactly free. While regular heroes level up by simply being on the battefield, Sauron takes time (LV5 horde, 20 hordes) and resources (Mouth of Sauron 2000, 4 trolls, Great Siegework level 3).

[Hamanathnath]

I'd like to mention that while it is true that you only have to buy him once, leveling him up isn't exactly free. While regular heroes level up by simply being on the battefield, Sauron takes time (LV5 horde, 20 hordes) and resources (Mouth of Sauron 2000, 4 trolls, Great Siegework level 3).

Agreed, but most of the objects you need to buy are objects which you will buy anyways, while in Bfme2 and Rotwk you need to give up a lot of money at once.  It's not like you buy the Mouth of Sauron or the Nazgul JUST to level up Sauron.  They are also very useful heroes themselves.  Yes, it does take a while to level him, but that's a counter to the fact that he can't die and is very useful for his price.

[Gnomi]

I have to add:
While it sounds easy, that other heroes "just have to be on the battlefield", it's quite often easier to level Sauron.
By focussing the heroes, the enemy has to retreat with them quite often, therefore you can at least delay the leveling of the heroes as an enemy.
But it's much more difficult to stop Sauron from leveling up, as Mordor can sneak most of the objects over time.
Therefore:
Yes it takes time and money.
But you spend the money on other things, you also get and most of them (as Hamanathnath said) can be part of your normal strategy and also you don't have to fight, which gives you another advantage.^^

It would be basically like Gandalf reaching higher levels if you recruit 5 gondor batallions at once - it doesn't really harm you to do it, as the gondor soldiers are worth their money AND Gandalf also reaches a new level. So I wouldn't really say that it would costs Gandalf money to reach higher levels.^^

[Spacetyrant93]

My post was more about asking if the thing was an Edain-estabilished nerf or my game going buggy.
I understand every simple concept behind this thing, his rather low price for what he can do, the advantages and everything, just that, with the original game's premise, its just weird not to have overkill-Sauron, just that.

[The_Nazgul]

Before anything , sorry for my medium (even bad) english!
i know this mod has a long way until a good and excellent balancing and even now it is the best RTS Mod for me! but i think i have to say something about mordor faction
hope you guys consider my opinion!

1.Mordor's Witch king
on the horse he is good only against the heroes!
for example he is able to slay grimbeorn easilly!
on the foot he is able to destroy several hord of enemy units but he can't even kill grimbeorn and in one on one battle he will destroy by grimbeorn!
on his fella beast's he cant even destroy a catapult or small building!
so i think a good balance between his abilities and upgrade on fella beast;s ram power would be excellent!

2.Drummer Trolls! (over power!)
only 5 drummer trolls is enough for killing galadriel level 10 with the ring! dont you believe it? just try it!
extremely over powered and over armored only weak against spearmans!
the greatest good point of mordor is trolls ,
i know but these guys are pain in the a$$!

3.Sauron with the one ring!
you can kill a level 10 sauron with only 3 horde of isengard archers! because of his low armor and low speed ,he is not able to do some efficiently action against the enemy archers! i lost my dark lord that way and not only one time i lost him like this several times

next thing is about his ram power! a level 10 sauron needs 3 times hit to destroy a catapult! (a troll without any upgrade can do this with only 3 hits)
and more than 20 times to destroy a fortress!
so i think this would be better if you guys do something about the dark lord's ram power and make a good upgrade for him

thank you for your amazing support on this mod!

[Elite KryPtik]

Sauron is supposed to be strong, but not a 1 man army or base destroyer. Your supposed to keep him in the middle of your army, not send him out alone.

Drummer trolls get wrecked by archers.

You already pointed out the Witch Kings strengths and weaknesses, he has different roles depending on whether he's on foot, horsed or flying. Although flying damage against siege is too low in general.

[Lille Rambo]

In my opinion Sauron with the ring is not the problem, but the constant spamming of orcs, I do understand why its free and everything but at least increase the production time, its nonstop attacking, and on top of that free, so they can use all their money on seige weapons. Which makes it very hard for the opposing faction.
1. increase the production time for orcs
2. increase the cost of catapults
3. optionally make the orcs even weaker
As it is now, mordor have a huge advantage regardless of their opponent, the other faction is kinda forced to a nonstop defence. these are just some suggestions, they might not be the right thing, but maybe we can figure out something that can make Mordor more balanced, and more enjoying to play with and against.

[Darkayah]

In my opinion Sauron with the ring is not the problem,

Yes... In the most games, they/we play without the ring.

but the constant spamming of orcs, I do understand why its free and everything but at least increase the production time, its nonstop attacking, and on top of that free, so they can use all their money on seige weapons.

That's the Point. if you use the spamming of orcs right, your Enemy have no chance to fight or to buy heroes or Upgrades because you buy soldiers all the time. And your enemy buy this free orcs and can save resources and buy Nazûl, siege weapons, then Dol-Guldur or Minas Morgul(= heavier free orcs!) or what ever.

[Hamanathnath]

I will agree that Mordor is the easiest to play because of the Free Orcs spam strategy.  However, what many people don't understand is how easy it is to counter them.  Orcs are not strong.  They NEED some sort of support in order to do anything.  And every faction has something that counters Orc Spam. 

Also take into consideration that Mordor has the most expensive Barracks right now.  And I think Orcs have the second longest unit production compared to every other factions first swordsmen.  The only one unit that takes longer is Rohan Peasants.  And you think Catapults need a price increase? It takes the Mordor catapult FOREVER to kill anything that isn't a economy building.  And Troll Catapults are very expensive already.

Nerfing orcs will make Mordor's early game impossible to win.  Without them in their current state, all the other factions starting units, if used correctly, will decimate Mordor early in the game.

[Adrigabbro]

Disclaimer: By no means I want to start over the debate about Mordor. 

Haman is right, orcs are not that strong. What is really strong at the moment is Nazguls, Cirith Ungol orcs and the spellbook. But most of all, Nazguls. They are incredibly good at mass killing on horseback because they hardly decelerate when trampling and their debuff is quite ridiculous.

[Elite KryPtik]

Disclaimer: By no means I want to start over the debate about Mordor. 

Haman is right, orcs are not that strong. What is really strong at the moment is Nazguls, Cirith Ungol orcs and the spellbook. But most of all, Nazguls. They are incredibly good at mass killing on horseback because they hardly decelerate when trampling and their debuff is quite ridiculous.

^ This. Also, their debuff once you have them all on the field is outright ridiculous.

[Elite KryPtik]

OK, I have just played a 3v3 against 3 Angmars, and I can say with utter surety that Mordor doesn't have a shadow of a chance against Angmar. They have been nerfed into the ground. All the nerfs that Mordor has received means that the only time you can effectively push forwards against Angmar is early game, once those upgraded men of carn dum are out on the battlefield its over. I did record the game and it will be posted up on my channel tomorrow, you can see in the video how impossible it is for me to make any ground.