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Autor Thema: Mordor Balance Discussion  (Gelesen 82203 mal)

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #105 am: 13. Apr 2016, 01:35 »
Care to elaborate? Just saying that the Angmar-Mordor matchup is one-sided and pointing to a video of a 3v3(!) on your channel doesn't help.

-DJANGO-

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #106 am: 13. Apr 2016, 01:41 »
Zitat
OK, I have just played a 3v3 against 3 Angmars, and I can say with utter surety that Mordor doesn't have a shadow of a chance against Angmar.
- Agree. Angmar is just the waaay better evil folk. I think its more the diversity of Angmar than the nerf of Mordor. Angmar is Mordor (Vassals) + Gondor (Carn Dum) +special things like Wolves, witchers. Hero wise they are also stronger than Mordor.
Thats why angmar is goddamn strong. Ah and dont forget their spells ^^
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Odysseus

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #107 am: 13. Apr 2016, 01:45 »
It's mostly Angmar being fresh and young and particularly OP as heck lol. Angmar will eventually lose momentum when people really figure out how to shut the faction down and when it has been hit by the nerf bat for a couple of times.

Also 3v3/4v4 is just a massive exponential clusterf*ck. There is very little in this gamemode that I would call ''balanced''.
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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #108 am: 13. Apr 2016, 02:08 »
Its true angmar are still op, but a lot of the nerfs for Mordor are really going to hurt them against other factions too. Also, I know 3v3 is unbalanced, but for a lot of the game each player was facing off against the other alone.
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Lord of Mordor

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #109 am: 13. Apr 2016, 02:20 »
It's certainly possible that Mordor is too weak now or that Angmar is too strong. However, I think Mordor especially should be tested in 1v1 games against older factions like Gondor before coming to early conclusions - we can't really say how the nerfs affected them against an enemy that didn't exist before they happened.
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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #110 am: 14. Apr 2016, 05:17 »
Just to note for those of you that are interested, the 3v3 game I was talking about has been uploaded to my YouTube channel, feel free to check it out and give your thoughts :)
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Leri_weill

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #111 am: 14. Apr 2016, 09:35 »
Just to note for those of you that are interested, the 3v3 game I was talking about has been uploaded to my YouTube channel, feel free to check it out and give your thoughts :)

Just watched the video, Mordor couldn'tdo anything against Angmar, and Elite is not a noob  xD

Adrigabbro

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #112 am: 14. Apr 2016, 14:18 »
So are Ereinion and Dani ; your argument is invalid. ;)

I just watched the video. I won't be nitpicking because it is irrelevant but here are a few reasons why this video does not prove anything:
- You said it at 25:20 and a few times after: Angmar is still extremely strong. (very probably a bit overpowered) I'd say that single point is enough, but let's keep on going.
- Contrary to what you said, you never faced Angmar alone. It was you and Haman VS. red and blue all game long.
- As you said, you are not really used to playing on this map. On the opposite, I have already played against/with Ereinion and Dani, and I believe they know this map better than you. That's another reason why they defeated you. Just check your video again: you left the top completely blank although it is worth one settlement and one outpost. That gotta matter. It really could have been occupied either by you or Rohan.

For real, I could keep on going the arguments but I think you got my point. I am not saying Mordor doesn't need to be de-nerfed, time will tell. I am just saying your video doesn't prove it.


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Odysseus

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #113 am: 14. Apr 2016, 15:13 »
I still think the biggest asset that makes Angmar so strong is their ability to have access to amazing crowd control and elite units. As Django said, the Carn-Dûm Swordsmen can deal with Mordor's elite units without any upgrades because of their ability to increase their own damage by 50%, which is really good, too good.
Their Pikemen have a toxic, return all types of damage, ability by what...25%? This ability needs to be revised, if you ask me.
Only the Carn-Dûm Rangers seem pretty balanced, from my point of view.

Finally, the Obelisk shuts down Orc spam pretty much instantly, because it has good health/armour, is permanent, and its debuff percentage and debuff range is huge.

The Mordor orc nerf isn't the factor imo, it's that Angmar can shut down spammy builds  really hard, with all their crowd control and AOE abilities.

Although, I am not sure why the Cirith Ungol settlement barrack had its price increased. I think it was fine at 600, but oh well.
« Letzte Änderung: 14. Apr 2016, 17:38 von Odysseus »
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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #114 am: 14. Apr 2016, 16:31 »
On the contrary, all that I said in my original post is that Mordor can do nothing against ANGMAR, and this video proves that nicely.

I am at least on an equal level with these 2, just because theres 4 highly skilled players in the match does not mean that my argumements are invalid.

Zitat
First off, that is nitpicking. What I said in game in the middle of the match, while trying to commentate, has no relevance to actual data.


Zitat
I did indeed face Angmar by myself several times while Haman was tied up separately with another player, and I faced 1 alone, especially drawing towards the end.

Zitat
Again, if you watch the video and actually listen to what I say, I tell HAMAN to take the top area because I want to take the MIDDLE area, for my outposts crowd control capabilities, which is why it isn't there. I say several times in the video for Haman to get his exile camp up, but the timing never happened for either of us.

If your going to argue so hard against me, please come up with real points next time. Sorry if this sounds cranky, but I just woke up after a terrible sleep : : : :(

Odysseus, as for Dark Rangers, refer to the video where 2 separate Nazgul and Rohan heroes, plus some other cavalry, trample them MULTIPLE TIMES without dealing hardly any damage. They are massively overpowered.
« Letzte Änderung: 14. Apr 2016, 16:35 von Elite KryPtik »
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Adrigabbro

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #115 am: 14. Apr 2016, 17:37 »
Come on, you are not being honest with yourself. You said repeatedly  in your video that Mordor needs to be de-nerfed, how dare you say that your point is not Mordor is too weak? And how dare you say that arguing that Angmar is too strong is nitpicking? Do you even read me? So yeah, it does sound cranky to me. Right now I feel like you read only small parts of my comment and mixed them in a random order.
By the way, when I said that your opponents were also strong, I wasn't talking to you but to Leri_weill, but I admit I should have made myself clearer on that.


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Odysseus

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #116 am: 14. Apr 2016, 17:46 »
That's because hero trample damage, in particular Nazgûl, was nerfed because some people were complaining about Nazgul bringing too much to the table for their cost. Sound familiar? :P

Still though, Dark Rangers are the easiest of the three Men of Carn-Dûm variants to deal with, imo.

Mordor is not weak. Far from it. They are still very potent. However, what truly is the issue that Angmar has been out for like a week and people already know what to exploit to make even Mordor pale in comparison. What truly is then the issue? To me, it's really clear that it is Angmar, and not Mordor.

I have also seen other replays, like one 2v2 posted by Draco where Mordor had triple barracks including several Orc tents on an Outpost and simply overran Iron Hills Dwarves even with upgraded Ironbreakers with their AOE weapon killing dozens of Orcs.

Nay, Mordor is still very potent, their steamrolling advantage has changed little imo. Angmar is the problem. And logically so, because they are fresh and need several patches to come into a more finely-tuned state, don't you think?
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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #117 am: 14. Apr 2016, 17:55 »
After reading your post, I realize that you are a lot clearer than me. But my point, my only point, is really what you just said Odysseus. The problem is not Mordor but Angmar.


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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #118 am: 14. Apr 2016, 18:44 »
Here is my original post on this, in entirety:
Zitat
Notice I say twice, Mordor doesn't stand a chance against Angmar. I am not picking apart your argument, you are attempting to do so to mine. I believe that the Mordor nerfs are going to really hurt their early game against rush factions in general, like Rohan, Isengard and Ered Luin Dwarves, but it is most prevalent in Angmar, which is why I mentioned them.

In your first post on this, you don't present any actual points about Angmar being strong, all you reference is me talking about things. You didn't make a single point about Angmar's ACTUAL units themselves. I did not read small parts of your comment, I read the entire thing, twice, and then posted my responses to each point, in separate quotes. I broke the comment up, but I did so in order. All I am saying is that instead of making points about what I SAY in the video, when my mind is racing and I'm also trying to play a game, and expressing thoughts that I may later change my mind about, how about we instead keep the discussion to actual facts about the factions?

Odysseus, I agree that hero trample damage was too large, and now its much more balanced, but its not just heroes that barely hurt them. It was also the ordinary cavalry of Haman and Sawman, they could barely do a thing. I personally think the easiest to kill are the swordsmen, the archers do SO much damage D:

Overall for Mordor, I think that the orc nerfs were justified, even though people can still make 4 orc pits plus their outposts and spam you into the ground, and I think they should have gotten a health nerf instead of a damage nerf, but I think they hit the Cirith Ungol barracks really hard. Cirith Ungol was a very key part of Mordor's early game, they were the units you could count on to actually make ground and push back the enemy, instead of just holding them with orcs.

Now, due to the barracks price increase and the ungol orcs no longer receiving discounts from the slave camps, I think that they have been rendered into an almost late game unit, and all Mordor has for early game is orcs, who lose against most other units. I would like to see Cirith Ungol returned to its previous state and instead of a cost increase, increase recruitment time and make them cost command points. That makes a hell of a lot more sense then turning them into a unit you cannot afford until late game.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Odysseus

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #119 am: 14. Apr 2016, 19:05 »
Only Black Uruk-Hai are exempted from the price decrease. Cirith Ungol Halberdiers still receive a decrease. It's less bad than you are making it sound imo. Although, I wouldn't mind putting Cirith Ungol back to 600.
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